Digital Social Hour - Fix Your Back Pain WITHOUT Surgery: Expert Advice | Dr. Grant Elliot DSH #753

Episode Date: September 24, 2024

Discover how to fix your back pain WITHOUT surgery with expert advice from Dr. Grant Elliot on the Digital Social Hour with Sean Kelly! 🎥🩺 If you're tired of living with back pain and want to get back to lifting and exercising without fear, this episode is packed with valuable insights you won't want to miss. Tune in now as Dr. Elliot busts myths about back pain, explains why deadlifts and squats aren't the enemy, and reveals the key to a pain-free life. 💪✨ Learn about preventing and managing back pain naturally, the truth about chiropractic care, and why movement is medicine. Don't miss out on this eye-opening conversation that could transform your approach to back health! Join the conversation, watch now, and subscribe for more insider secrets. 📺 Hit that subscribe button and stay tuned for more eye-opening stories on the Digital Social Hour with Sean Kelly! 🚀 #HowToDeadlift #BackStretch #MuscleBuilding #PreventBackPain #DeadliftTutorial #BulgingDisc #BackPainTreatment #MythsAboutBackPain #DeadliftBenefits #Deadlift CHAPTERS: 00:00 - Intro 00:38 - Causes of Back Pain 02:47 - Risks of Chiropractic Treatment 05:45 - Injury Risks from Squatting/Deadlifting 09:03 - Back Pain Prevention Strategies 13:41 - Optimal Sleeping Positions 15:57 - Ronnie Coleman Insights 18:15 - MRI Limitations Explained 23:47 - Using M*rijuana for Back Pain Relief 25:39 - Stem Cell Injection for Back Pain 29:15 - Prevalence of Back Pain 31:30 - Impact of Slouching on Back Pain 35:15 - Effective Stretches for Back Pain Relief 38:05 - Exercising with Back Pain Tips 41:44 - Opinions on Back Massages 43:14 - Addressing Neck Kinks 44:57 - Contacting Dr. Grant 45:40 - Reaching Out to Dr. Grant 45:50 - Outro APPLY TO BE ON THE PODCAST: https://www.digitalsocialhour.com/application BUSINESS INQUIRIES/SPONSORS: [e-mail] GUEST:Dr. Grant Elliot https://www.instagram.com/rehabfix https://www.threads.net/@rehabfix https://www.therehabfix.com/ SPONSORS: Deposyt Payment Processing: https://www.deposyt.com/seankelly LISTEN ON: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/digital-social-hour/id1676846015 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5Jn7LXarRlI8Hc0GtTn759 Sean Kelly Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmikekelly/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Oh, deadlifts, it's the worst thing you can do for your back. And I'm over here like, does your doctor even lift, bro? Like, if not, then like, if your goals, if you're someone suffering with back pain and your goals are to get back to lifting and exercise and live a life of freedom, not walking on eggshells, but you're seeking a provider that knows nothing about weightlifting and demonizes weightlifting

and doesn't understand it, then you're seeing the wrong provider. All right, guys, we are talking back pain today. Very excited for this one. Dr. Grant Elliott here today. Thanks for coming on, man. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. Something I deal with daily. Yeah. I'm going to learn a lot this episode. We're going to fix this then. Yeah. So I don't know if it's from the scoliosis or from my sedentary lifestyle, but I'd love to hear what the most common causes of back pain are. Oh man. Okay. Big, big question out the gate. So here's, all right. What causes back pain? First off, 90% of low back pain is, is categorized as non-specific low back pain.

What does that mean? It means you can't trace it to one specific route, which that alone is going to make a lot of people go, wait, what? Because a lot of providers and marketers love to say this one thing is causing, you know, this issue. And if you fix this one thing, it's all going to go. But the reality, if you look at the evidence, 90% is nonspecific, which just means it's a combination of muscle joint and disc pain. It could be, you know, majority one, majority other, or a combination of all of them. It is influenced by multiple factors, not only tissue damage. So there's a lot of rabbit holes we could go to, but you don't have to actually have tissue damage to feel pain. This is kind

of leading us towards the direction of pain science and the psychosocial influences of pain. This is kind of leading us towards the direction of pain science and the psychosocial influences of pain. But for the relevance to your question, 90% nonspecific can't be traced to a particular tissue and is influenced by many other factors such as social influences, anxiety, depression, your outlook on your prognosis, what you've been told about back pain, all these things can influence your experience with back pain. And that comprises 90%. So the truth is that you can't definitively say this causes back pain because it's very multifactorial throughout your life. That's interesting. That's good to know. I always thought it was one thing, but it's just a culmination of all your daily habits, right?

Yep. Daily habits, your beliefs, your movements. You can provide advice and you can correct things that people are doing in their lives to reduce their back pain, but it would go against the evidence to say, your hip being uneven is the reason for your back pain. No, no, that's, the evidence does not support that. It's a combination of things. It's multifactorial.

My chiropractor was wrong. Well, it's a pretty classic thing to say or to hear. You know, I was told my back pain was because of uneven hips or one leg is longer than the other. That's a classic one. And really, no, there's almost no evidence to support that. The only evidence to support that is if you have a leg length discrepancy of greater than I think three centimeters, which is significant. Very significant. These are not at all common morphologies. You have to be born that way or there has to be some kind of traumatic incident to result in a three centimeter difference of a leg, of course. Um, but those type of typical

things, Oh, uneven leg, or my hip is twisted or whatever. No, there's no evidence to support that. Yeah. He scared me with the leg one. I think he said 0.25 centimeters off. And I was like, damn, is that a lot for now? That's something that you take and you throw it in the garbage. Honestly. Yeah. I don't, I don't go to chiropractors anymore because actually my friend works in the ER and he said at least once a week in Vegas, there's a chiropractor injury that comes from the ER. Well, it's, it's, it's funny you said it. So, so I'm a chiropractor. Oh, you are? That that's my industry. But if you looking at my social media, you, you probably didn't think I was because it's all rehab. It's all movement. So to, to, to answer your question,

you know, I'm, I'm very movement focused, rehab focused. When people hear the word chiropractor, they think, Oh, just adjustments, just cracking people's spines. Really chiropractic is just the name of a profession. You can do whatever you choose with your training and you can take your training and your expertise wherever you want it to. That's just the title you have. But in regards to your frame being in the ER, there's a lot of controversy around the negative consequences of chiropractic and whatever. Once again, if you look at the evidence, if you look at the literature,

there's really no safer conservative therapy for your spine than typical chiropractic. Once again, I haven't adjusted anyone in years. All I do is rehab, rehab and movement. I teach people how to fix themselves. But if we're, if we're referring to what the public usually associates with chiropractic, which is adjustments and things like that, um, we can't look over the fact that many people who go to a chiropractor have some degree of injury already. So then they go, they see a chiropractor, something else might happen in their life, or maybe that injury was in its natural progression.

And then they sought further, more intensive care. They were asked, what have you done prior to this? They say, I saw a chiropractor. And then they're labeled with, oh, well, you were hurt by the chiropractor. That makes sense. So there's a lot of scenarios where that might happen. There could be an existing pathology in the process.

Oh, my neck started hurting. I should go see a chiropractor. They go see the chiropractor. Oh, my neck's still hurting. I'm going to go seek further care. Oh, my gosh, we actually found out that this very dangerous thing is going on. What did you do? I saw a chiropractor.

Oh, they did it. No. So that type of relationship can sometimes be the result. How many of your clients are coming in from injuries from squatting or deadlifting? Yeah, a lot. A lot, but that's not because... Kick off an exciting football season with BetMGM,

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There's nothing wrong with weight training. In fact, weight training has been found to be extremely beneficial for back pain, for spine health, for disc health. Another common misconception is that if you squat a lot of weight, you deadlift a lot of weight, you're compressing your discs, right? Well, no. Actually, there's a lot of data that shows compression, which is just the connotation, putting weight on your spine, actually improves disc height. Of course, it improves bone mineral density of your spine as well. As you know, like osteoporosis, if your bone mineral density is reducing,

what helps you get stronger, thicker bones, load does, weight on the bone. And of course, having appropriate calcium, vitamin D, other nutrients and minerals that promote bone health, but loading your body promotes growth and it can do that same thing to discs. So a big misconception here is yes, a lot of people suffer back injuries from squatting or deadlifting. Therefore they label that incident as bad. Right? Well, I hurt my back deadlifting. So obviously isn't deadlifting bad for me. I should never do it again. No. If you analyze that incident, usually there's an explainable If you analyze that incident, usually there's

an explainable reason for why that incident occurred. Maybe they've had very consistent, healthy habits their whole life. And now maybe for the last six months, their work stress has significantly amplified. Perhaps their diet has decreased in quality. Maybe their sleep is also getting worse and worse and worse. And therefore anxiety and other things are now increasing. Therefore their recovery is, is decreasing. Maybe they're not training as much now. And then they go into the gym to try to release a bunch of stress. They squat heavy and their body is not prepared for that load. Right. And it results in an injury. There's nothing wrong with hurting your back. Back pain is normal. 80% of people alive will experience low back pain

at some point in their life. It is common. It's normal. It's highly recoverable. It's nothing to be afraid of. But there's nothing wrong with squats or deadlifts or anything just because you hurt yourself doing it. There's likely an explanation for why that incident occurred.

Gets a lot of negative stigma, deadlifting, squatting. Yeah, absolutely, man. And so many providers in my space, so many physical therapists, chiropractors, spine surgeons, oh, deadlifts, it's the worst thing you can do for your back. And I'm over here like,

does your doctor even lift, bro? Like, if not, then like, if your goals, if you're someone suffering with back pain and your goals are to get back to lifting and exercise and live a life of freedom, not walking on eggshells, but you're seeking a provider that knows nothing about weightlifting and demonizes weightlifting and doesn't understand it, then you're seeing the

wrong provider. But the reality is that the vast majority of people who have goals related to getting back to activity and weightlifting and fitness, they're going and seeing providers that know nothing about weightlifting or fitness. So it's like they're seeing the wrong provider majority of the time and then they're getting that same negative message. Oh, stop deadlifting, it's terrible for you. No, it isn't.

It's a fantastic way to strengthen your spine and strengthen your body overall to help you be more robust for future activities that might be applicable to your life. Yeah. Do you do anything on the preventative side? Preventative side? Well, so people won't have a strong, um, uh, urge that don't have back pain to do something about their back. But if I were to advise someone that let's say we helped get out of pain now, if they're like, okay, what can I do to prevent this from occurring

in the future? Really? My, my answer here isn't anything miraculous. It's whatever we did to fix your back pain, do some degree of maintaining that in your lifestyle and just get good sleep, eat well and keep moving. That's the best thing you can do to prevent back pain from occurring in the future. And if someone is diligent to those things, the chances of their back pain coming back is slim to none. Nice. I've read Tony Robbins book, Life Force. Yeah. And he recommended something you lay on, forget what it's called, for your spine to stretch it out. Is it for the neck? It might be the neck. Is it called like a dinner roll? Might be, yeah. You lay it down on the floor on it and then like elevate your back and neck. What do you think of those? So, well, I'm, I want to fully understand what you're referencing. Is it

something that he described as like you put on to like help the curvature of your neck, something like that? I think the curvature of the spine, cause you lay down flat and it's like slightly elevated, like a round circle. So without, I want to answer your question. I would like to know exactly what it is you're suggesting, but I think we can assume at this point, it's something to promote curvature or to do something kind of mobility to your spine. So there's two different answers that I'll provide you

is if it is a product or device that states it's going to restore curvature of your spine, this is another really big topic. People go to, it's typically chiropractors, it's typically people in my space, who are like, oh, I want to take these x-rays of your spine, and look, you're losing the curvature of your neck, you're losing the curvature of your lower back,

and that's what's causing your pain. There's plenty of systematic reviews, which are large studies that show that sagittal curvature, which is the forward and back, so curvature of your spine, does not have a causation, a relationship to pain. It's not predictive of that at all. So everyone's born with different shaped spines. It's like, we all look differently on the outside. Wouldn't it make sense that we could also look a little bit different on the inside too? Yeah. Like we're allowed to look different internally from a structural standpoint as well. So our spines do not have to look the same. Even if I stood in front of you and I put my body in

a star shape and you slice me right down the middle and you compared my right side to my left side, it wouldn't match. So I'm not even asymmetrical myself. So I wouldn't expect my spine to look like yours. That would be a fallacy. So if the point of this product is to restore curvature, hey, if it feels good and you enjoy doing it, more power to you. But the narrative that I would put behind that would not be, you're in pain because you're

losing your curve. You need this product to restore your curve because that would be a false message. And it could convince someone, oh, unless my spine curve restores, then I'm going to be in pain forever. And we don't want that to be the result. Now, if the product is meant to just mobilize certain areas of your spine, then yeah, sure. If, um, you know, anyone who sits a lot, I'm sure you said a lot. I said a lot too, right? You know, at this point I'm, I'm, I'm managing a team and, uh, I'm on my computer all day. So, uh, most of us were rounded forward all the time. So if this is a particular product or device that you lay on, that's meant to then extend you and go the opposite direction and give your spine some motion that it isn't getting

throughout the day, then that would be great. I think it's more towards that. Yeah, sure. Yeah. Expose your spine to the directions it does not get enough of. That's another movement principle. Do the opposite. Whatever you find yourself doing the most of throughout the day, do the opposite because it means you're missing the opposite. So if I'm always rounded forward all the time, then I should expose my spine to the opposite. And the same works the other way. Let's say I'm a ceiling painter. Let's say that's all I do all day long. I'm standing on a ladder and I'm leaning back, painting the ceiling. Then I would want to get more forward, more flexion when I'm off work or whatever to expose my spine to the opposite. We don't want too much of one thing. We want to expose it to all directions. That's important because people,

as they get older, they get more stiff, right? So if they're doing that, they can kind of mitigate that. Your spine was made to move and we want to maintain movement through all aspects of it. Is there an optimal sleeping position for the spine? No, no, no. This is another man. So many videos are made on this. The hook of the video will be, you know, your sleeping position sucks and here's why. And it's not true, man. The best sleeping position is the one that you sleep the best in. Really? Yes, for sure. For sure. We don't want people to freak out about the position they're sleeping in. Man, there was a patient we had and he came to us and the way he talked about his back sounded like in his belief, it was extreme. And we evaluated his movement and his movement was honestly pretty good. Like we were like, no, he's saying one thing, but, and I'm saying this in an encouraging

way. He moved well, he was not decrepit and he kept bringing up, you know, my sleep. I knew, I know my sleep is bad. I know my sleep is bad. He brought this up a lot. And so we just asked him like, what makes you keep bringing this up? He said, well, the last chiropractor I work with, he was telling me over and over and over again that I have to sleep in this one position. And if I don't sleep in this one position, then I'm going to stay in pain. So guess what the result was? He started waking up almost every 30 minutes during his rest, his nighttime sleep, because he was paranoid about not being in that position. So then guess what? His sleep quality significantly reduced. And then he told himself, oh my gosh, every time I wake up, I'm slightly out of that position. So I'm not going to get better unless I sleep in this one position, but then the sleep

got worse. So then his lifestyle got worse and then he felt more pain as a result. So I told him just forget all of that. Do these basic, basic exercises. There's no sleeping position that is inherently wrong. If you're healthy and you don't have some other condition going on. Um, you know, maybe you just had surgery on your shoulder. Do you want to sleep on your shoulder? Maybe not. Okay. But in regards to someone who doesn't have some kind of unique circumstance, you sleep, however you sleep best in and forget about the rest. Okay. Cause a lot of people recommend left side. No, you know, so that is actually most recommended for digestive purposes. If someone is getting a lot of, um, like GERD or acid reflux throughout their, their, their night, then sleeping on the,

on the left side can be best for that. Um, but in regards to back pain, nah, man, you sleep however you want. I feel that. Uh, I saw you make a video on Ronnie Coleman. Yes. So he's actually, he's coming on the show. No way. So I'm curious what happened, what happened with him? Cause I know he's in a wheelchair now, right? He is not in a great state. That's crazy. Um, so Ronnie Coleman, oh my gosh, the goat of bodybuilding. I'm really into bodybuilding. I'm a total meathead. I love training and he's, he's the best to ever do it. And he obviously took himself to extremes and I made, it was my first popular YouTube video. I think I has like 190,000 views now. It was the first one that started to grow my YouTube channel.

And I went pretty in-depth on it because he's had, if I had just made the video, I'd remember all the stats, but he's had many surgeries. I think maybe 12 or 13 spine surgeries at this point. That's crazy. But I was digging through a ton of his interviews. And something that he quoted, his words, not mine is he said, you know, I think where I went wrong was the first surgery. And we've actually heard this

so many times throughout our years. Um, at this point we have about 200 consultations a week with people with back pain. Uh, we're, we're fully online, by the way, we have an online program. It's an online rehab program. We teach people how to fix themselves. It's all one-on-one coaching. So we've caused with people all over the world and we hear all the time, like, yeah, I had a surgery and now I have these problems that I didn't have before. Um, or it can cause a lot of, a lot of fear and worry about now, now I'm fragile. I need to be careful with my spine, things like that that can have negative outcomes. But with Ronnie Coleman specifically,

sure, was he lifting more weight than really anyone has or does for many years? Sure. And to that extreme, is that healthy for the integrity of your connective tissue? Probably not. Probably not. But is that to say that that is the direct reason for the

position he's in now? I do not believe so. Wow. Because he's had so many surgeries. And if you look at the evidence, it's very clear. The more surgeries you have, the lower the chances of the surgeries helping in the higher, the chances of chronic pain. Whoa. Every time. So like if you just have a, a somewhat casual disc issue, you have a 97% chance of fully recovering without surgery. Interesting. 97% of disc herniations, which this is, this is crazy. This was a study in 2020. It evaluated 280,000 people, lumbar disc herniations, 97% recovered. No, I didn't know that because they herniations, 97% recovered, no surgery. I didn't know that because they always tell you you get surgery for that one.

Exactly right. And that's the thing that drives me crazy is because the typical medical system, you know, oh, I have back pain. All right, first thing let's do, let's image. No, that should not be the first step at all. But they do it because it's the only thing they know to do because it's a biomedical model.

So you go in, you get an MRI. Well, anyone walking around above the age of 30, you have about a 40% to 50% chance of having a disc bulge on an MRI, even if you don't have pain. Wow. So if you or me right now, well, I know you were saying you were dealing with back issues, but let's just pretend you were. Let's pretend everyone in this room didn't have back pain. We all go and we get an MRI right now.

There's a chance half of us have a disc bulge right now. That's crazy. And we don't know it. And that's because there's nothing wrong with having variances on spine imaging. But what happens is maybe that disc bulge was there all along. And now you're in pain. And now they say, oh, let's go get an image.

They take the image and they say, oh, this is the reason for your pain. But it was there for the last three years. So then they say, the reason for your pain is this disc bulge. So we got to cut it out in order for you to be better. But now there's trauma. Now you have a period of time where you're sedentary, or maybe you were maintaining some degree of activity before. Maybe you've been told a bunch of messages now, which people are, hey, now that you've had a back surgery, you know, you got to stop these exercises. You can't run anymore. You can't deadlift. You can't squat. You can't do those CrossFit classes. And now their health deteriorates and then their

back pain is worse. And then they just get another surgery and another surgery and another surgery. And that just chronifies pain, trauma, and worry. Right. And then the result is not good. And I think that is more so in line with what happened to Ronnie Coleman. I love that way of thinking because you see this with a lot of professional athletes. They start piling up surgeries and they're never the same. All the time, man. Yeah, it's very, very clear.

But injections and surgeries, they're thrown out like hotcakes. And you come in, if they can find a reason on an MRI to operate most of the time they will. And this isn't everyone like we, we network with some amazing surgeons who are extremely conservative, who know the clinical criteria for surgery. But the funny part is, is us being on the conservative side. Most of the time we are telling the patient, Hey, here's the actual clinical criteria for surgery. This is what

your surgeon should be telling you. If they're not telling you what the criteria is and you don't match their criteria, then there's a conflict of interest. Like they should not be advising this. It's very clear. You do not match the criteria, but they're telling you to operate like big red flags. Yeah. No, it's a tricky dynamic because from a business point of view, they want their star athlete back ASAP. Yeah. But if they get the surgery, it might help them, right? From the perspective of context is everything. From the perspective of someone who gets paid to perform and maybe there's even legalities

regards to what they do and what they don't do. There are some unique circumstances where for them, they're like, I don't really care. I don't want to potentially wait longer for conservative therapy. If I can get a surgery now and I might get back on the field a month sooner, um, then I'm going to do that because that's where I'm being told my team will, we'll see that I'm doing everything I can to get back. And maybe that'll ensure my career. I can understand that degree of pressure in that context. Um, but as it relates to the lay

public, yeah, surgery, vast majority of the time, not needed at all. So it's like a last resort for you. It is an absolute last resort. And once again, I want to be very clear, like this is not my opinion. This is what the evidence shows. So if you tear a meniscus, let's say, do you think that could be treated naturally? It's shown that you can. Yes. Now, I want to be clear here. My topic here is back pain specifically. So if you start throwing in a whole bunch of other things, the answer can change depending on what the injury is. But once again, if you're going to say knee injuries, yeah, even now they've realized that ACLs can reheal even without ACL surgeries in certain circumstances. So they're actually

vastly peeling back the rate at which they're doing ACL surgeries. So I know tons of people who have torn meniscus and they just rehab it conservatively. And if it's not impacting their daily life, then what's the reason to operate? Yeah. I asked that because my mom tore hers and she got surgery. She actually regrets it because she ended up tearing her other one and treated that one naturally. And she's almost fully healed now. There you go. And she had to give up tennis because the surgery on the first one was just so invasive and it hurt too much. Yeah. Like it is a last resort. And once again, I want to, I want to play both sides of the fence here. Cause I try to be as biased as possible. We have referred people to surgery.

There are instances where it is indicated if they match a clinical criteria. There are also emergent scenarios. The viewers can look up the term cauda equina syndrome. This is a surgical emergency that is related to low back pain, a disc herniation bulging significantly and encroaching on the spinal cord, cutting off significant function to the lower extremities. This is predictable through their signs and symptoms. Like that is something we would not try to manage conservatively. Like we would immediately push them to surgery. Yeah. So there, there's a time and place. The point is that something that should only be used, you know, statistically 3% or less of the time is being advised way, way, way, way,

way more than that. That's the issue. Absolutely. You also made a video on marijuana for back pain. I did. I was an older one. I'd love to see what you took away from that. Did it actually help with back pain? Yeah, there were actually a few really good studies that were in, you know, very supportive of that. The only main like conclusion of that is potential deleterious effects on your lifestyle because for certain individuals, consumption of marijuana can reduce motivation. So if your desire of your regular activities or fitness-based activities is then reduced,

then the end result might not be positive because movement is medicine. The best thing you can do for any type of musculoskeletal issue is move, remain active. So if, if I was someone where, Hey, um, maybe I haven't tried rehab. I haven't tried other conservative means. And I'm like, you know, I just feel like smoking pot for my back pain. If, if I was able to maintain my healthy lifestyle and add in the addition of that, then yes, that could be very positive for my pain.

If that reduced or suppressed my desire to go to the gym, to eat healthy, to maintain movement in my life, then the net result could be negative. Makes sense. Because still in the end, even though marijuana is natural, of course, it can help have a natural pain reducing effect. It still isn't ultimately correcting whatever my behavior is or whatever movements

I should be doing to correct the problem. Yes, it is having a multifaceted chemical effect on my experience with pain, but there still needs to be something done with my movement or habits or strength or function to help me fully correct whatever it is that's continuing the cycle. So it's still a pain medication at the end of the day. And we know that we wouldn't want someone to just keep popping pills forever saying, oh, I'm good now. I don't feel the pain. Well, technically marijuana could be viewed as the same, just a more natural approach. So we still want to implement whatever movements the person needs in their life to correct the issue to the best of our ability. That's why I like CBD because you don't get high and it can actually help with the pain.

Yeah. Yeah, sure. Like if someone's looking for, hey, I understand that I still need to take control of my own health and find the right exercises and have a plan, but I'm looking for an additional layer of, of natural pain relief, then fantastic. Yeah. And yeah, there's nothing, there's nothing negative about that. Agreed. What do you think of people injecting stem cells in their back to fix pain? Yeah. Um, all, all have two sides of this question as well. One is anecdotal. So just my experience. And then once again, once the evidence shows, um, evidence is pretty mixed, pretty mixed with the efficacy of stem cell for, for back issues. Um, yeah, pretty mixed. Uh, there's just a lot of social hype around stem cells for sure. Um, for sure. And different things have more research than others.

Um, but we talked to people, like I said, 200 consultations a week. We're probably talking to two or three people a week who have either tried or who are about to try stem cells for back pain. And we rarely hear a positive result. Whoa, I thought it was the opposite. I thought it was mainly positive. We very rarely hear a positive result.

Holy crap. No, no, that's anecdotal. There could be someone who's listening to this. It goes, oh no, look at this paper. I don't know. But we talk to the people who are doing it and we rarely hear a good result. A key point here though, if someone wants to try something to promote healing that they truly believe in, belief is very powerful. You know that. If I believe that this is the thing that's going to get me better better then that could put me in a very positive state mentally for healing and if someone doesn't believe that they can get better they're not going to get better it doesn't matter it doesn't matter

if someone came to me and i said you know in this instance i know the one exercise that could reduce your pain by 50 like this is your golden ticket if they don't believe it'll help it's not gonna help they have to believe and they have to have the right mindset. So if someone is looking at stem cells and they're like, this is it, I have more belief in this than anything else, just getting a better mindset is going to improve their pain. And it's going to put them in a state of a higher propensity to heal. So then if they have that procedure and now they're thinking, oh,

I know that I'm getting better now. So now I'm going to get back into fitness when I get back into my activity. Now that's driving positive behavior. And then they could go, oh yeah, now I'm way better is because of the stem cells. But in reality, maybe the stem cells didn't even do anything. It just put you in a positive mindset. Now you're moving more and you have a better belief in your healing and now you feel better. But as long as someone, once again, fully understands that they can't just inject stem cells, sit on the couch, do nothing

and try to let something work for them, that you have to put in some work or else it won't work, then hey, try whatever you want. But you gotta understand, if your work isn't required, it's not going to work. Yeah. I'm shocked because people pay a lot for that.

So I thought it worked. Yeah, they do. Yeah. Five, 10K for an injection. And they have to fly to Columbia and stuff. Yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean, we hear it every week, man.

Every week. And they come back and they work with us. They come back to you guys. That's nuts. Yeah, just our experience. Holy crap. And you're doing 200 a month, you said, clients? We're doing 200 consultations a week.

A week. So no, those are 200 a month, you said, clients? We're doing 200 consultations a week. A week. So no, those are like introduction calls, discovery calls, right? To see who's a good fit and a screening process, of course. But on the front end, yeah, we're doing about 200 consultations a week. Crazy.

So is back pain the most common pain humans experience? It is the number one disability in the world. As I said earlier, I think it was on this or off camera with you, 80% of people alive will experience back pain at some point in their life. So number one disability. Pretty much everyone's going to feel it at some point in their life. Yeah, I definitely feel it. When is it considered chronic? Yeah, so chronic on paper is anything beyond 12 weeks. 12 weeks? So if you're looking at like, once again, like what is the clinical descriptor of chronic pain? It's 12 weeks or greater, but here's where like semantics kind of come into

play a little bit is the vast majority of people who come to us, they've had back pain for more than, for more than three months. So they would be labeled on paper as chronic pain, but the term chronic pain is very different than the paper definition. So when I'm talking to someone, let's say they've had, you know, they had a disc issue. Maybe they're in the gym, deadlifting felt a pop. That's a very classic mechanism of injury. Deadlifting, feel a pop. Oh, now it's difficulty to bend forward. I can't stand up straight the next day.

That's a disc herniation all day long. And maybe they've had that for six months. They have some satica going down the leg and maybe they've tried a lot of providers, but their symptoms and their movement are still very mechanical. Mechanical meaning if I move this way, it hurts. And if I move this way, it feels better. And they don't have a lot of other things going on in their lives or in their mind. I would not label that person as a chronic pain individual. Someone who more so resembles what chronic pain looks like is someone who the pain has become a part of their identity. So they've been in pain long enough that their belief in getting better

is significantly reduced. They have a ton of fear, a ton of anxiety, worry, depression about their condition, and it's become part of their identity. And it very much so dictates their behavior, their mood. And they're in a state where they're no longer really seeking treatment. They kind of believe that this is just who I am now, that is more so the image of chronic pain outside of purely timeline. That makes sense. Any relation with slouching and poor posture causing back pain? No. Really? No, man. Wow. That's surprising. No. Have you heard the term text neck? Yeah. When you're like this? Yeah. That's a bunch of, that's a bunch of BS man. Yeah. No, yeah. No evidence to support that at all. Wow. You're busting a lot of myths today. Yeah. It's like everything I'm saying is like what everybody says. No, I mean, this is once

again, just a whole bunch of like fear-based stuff. Like the reason for your neck pain is because you look at your phone. No, if you are, let me come down a level here. If someone is slouching and they're not exercising, they're not eating well, they're not doing movements that promote the opposite, then could that person be perpetuating their pain by remaining in a slouch position? yes. But does slouching or poor posture cause pain? No, because I'm living proof of it. I slouch all day long. Really? Absolutely.

You're not in posture right now, though. Not really, man. I mean, listen, I'm on my computer all day long. Like, I'm almost more of an entrepreneur now than I am a clinician because I'm just managing things. But I'm on my computer leaning forward, editing videos, you know, doing things all day long, but I take movement breaks. I go to the gym almost every day. I go on a morning and an evening walk. I promote movements in my body to

keep my spine healthy. But the position I'm in most of the day is definitely a slouched, what some other chiropractor would look at me and would label me as bad posture position. Like that's, that's what I live in, but I counteract that with appropriate movement and exercise. So we definitely cannot label anyone as bad posture. Cause really, and here's a good quote for you is the best posture is the one you're in for the next five minutes. Cause if you slouch, you get uncomfortable. Well, then you just move a little bit and you move a little bit and you move a little bit. Wow. Movements, the name of the game. So you don't want to be in any one position for a long period of time, but that it can't cause pain. So here's a really, really good example. If I were to hold my arm like this, let's say for eight hours straight. Okay. Would my elbow or my bicep

or whatever start to feel uncomfortable? Yeah, probably. Okay. Now also, if I were to hold my arm extended for eight hours straight, would that also start to feel uncomfortable? Yeah. Yeah. So now here's my point. If I were to sit in a slouch position without taking any movement breaks, I stay in this, will my back start to feel uncomfortable? Yeah. Yes. Now, if I sit in perfect posture like this for eight hours straight, would my back start to hurt? Mm-hmm. Yes.

Easily. My back would hurt. So there is no perfect posture. It's moving through several different postures throughout the day. That's what's going to keep you feeling good. I love that, man. Because I bought a back brace and it was so uncomfortable.

And there you go. Yeah. Cause it kept you fixated in one position. If you're keeping your spine stiff, your spine's going to let you know. Wow. It wants to be in different positions all the time. That's ironic.

Cause they say that's supposed to help your posture. It's actually making a worse problem. No. Yeah. I mean, it might be a reminder to, you know, shoulders back and stand up straight.

So like cause cosmetically, like the way you appear, um, and stand up straight. So like cause cosmetically, like the way you appear, um, looks nicer. Like people look more confident. They look nicer when they're in a more upright, tall position. I'm not even going to say the word good posture. Cause once again, like what is good posture? What could be my good posture could feel bad to you. So there really is no good or bad posture. So just appearance wise, most human beings look better if they're not slouching. Um, but you're usually, you just got to move your spine, let your spine move and move in frequent positions and you'll feel better. Are there

certain stretches you do every day for the spine? Yeah, absolutely. Once again, I've used the term do the opposite very frequently. So a really simple example here, once again, like my arm, if I hold my arm like this all day, I would want to take movement breaks and extend it the opposite way. So for my back, if I'm sitting and I look like this all the time, then I would want to promote the opposite. So let's take the most classic movement really for back issues. It's, you know, like the Cobra pose in yoga, get on your stomach, push your chest up off the floor, putting your back in an arch position. Yeah. So a very simple approach here is if there is someone out there who is sitting most of the day, like most of us are, and they're in a flexed

position all the time, then lay on the ground, take gravity off your spine, push your chest up off the ground into an extended position and expose your spine to the movements that it wasn't getting throughout the day. Do the opposite. Love it. So, and I kind of said this earlier, the context can be different based on what the person is in. But if I were to tell the world, hey, what's one movement we should do for back pain? I would say do any movement that is the opposite of the position you find yourself the most in. I love it. I'm going to start doing yoga then, man.

Yeah. And like, and once again, yoga is just a combination of movement and movement's good for back pain. But here's, I'm going to say something kind of controversial. I would not advise someone with acute back pain or disc or static issues to do yoga. Yoga has and can make a lot of back pain worse. Really? Absolutely. And I'm saying this in reference to the acute stage. So let's once again, take the classic example of someone who they were in the gym, they were deadlifting, they felt a pop and it's very difficult for them to let's say, bend forward. This, this is a classic scenario. So, um, you

know, three months go by, I still can't bend over to touch my toes. My back really hurts. The longer I sit, the more I bend forward, trying to bend over to put my socks and shoes on. And I feel radiating pain down the back of my leg when I try to bend forward, that's a flexion intolerant back issue. So flexing intolerant, their body does not tolerate that motion. So now let's say, Oh, my buddy told me to go to a yoga class for my back pain. They go to a yoga class and then let's just pretend this yoga class has 10, 20 different forward folds in the class. That's going to make them worse. So when someone's dealing with an acute issue, a back pain, or that's sensitive in mechanical and nature, meaning different movements yield a different result. Yoga is a combination of many different movements of the spine.

And there's going to be some movements of the spine that your spine will like, and there will be some movements of the spine that your spine won't. So if you go into a yoga class, and let's just say 60% of the movements that day are a movement your spine cannot tolerate right now, then you're going to leave the yoga class flared up. Yeah, I can relate because I actually strained my back last time I went to hot yoga. Yeah. Well, there you go. And I haven't been back since. So there's the example. So I want to be very clear here for the viewers. I'm not saying yoga is bad. I am a proponent of any

movement-based practice or activity. But if someone is like, my back is super sensitive, it really hurts. And certain movements hurt really bad. Then I would not say, go do yoga. Cause it's the same thing as walking into a pharmacy and saying, Hey, I have this issue. Just give me 10 different pills for it. And just taking all of them and hoping the result is good movements. Just like medicine, certain medications, the right ones for you. You can take too much of the right medication and the result will be bad. You can take too little of the right medication and you'll think it won't do anything. You need to find the right movement for your spine and then the right prescription of that movement. And that's what's going to get you out of pain the fastest. But if you just walk in with really bad sadica or a really

bad issue and you're a really bad issue, and you're doing 10 different movements, then yeah, you could end up in a flared up state and not feeling very good towards yoga. I thought it was me just being competitive, but it was definitely that because it was an advanced class. I had no yoga experience and I just got flared up. I love the ambition, but if you're dealing with an actual back issue that is sensitive, seek a professional first that can help you resolve it and then go do all the yoga you want. Like when you're bulletproof and your spine feels good and you can handle all motions. Yeah. Go do yoga a hundred percent. But if you're in a sensitive state, you need a more structured plan. Yeah. Are there certain back exercises at the gym you really like or recommend people?

Context. So is this someone who has back pain or does not have back pain? Ooh. So it's different for both you're saying? Well, once again, it depends. So like for me, once again, I'm in the bodybuilding, I love fitness. I love training. You know, I'm, I love some heavy deadlifts, heavy squats and, you know, heavy RDLs. And I love loading my spine and training the most that I can. If there's someone in the gym right now who doesn't have back pain, I would say, keep doing whatever you're doing. I don't need to change what you're doing. If you feel fine, you're a healthy individual, keep doing whatever it is.

If there's someone who wants to get back in the gym, but they have back pain, and they're afraid of flaring it up, then there are certain movements I might advise they either regress or don't do just at this point in time until they are recovered. Yeah. So let's take that flexion intolerant individual. individual, if this is someone where every time they try to bend over to touch their toes, they feel screaming nerve pain down their leg as a result of the bent position, then I would not advise that person to do exercises that put them in a bent position. So what exercises put people in a bent position, deadlifts, RDLs, um, crunches, uh, leg raises, raises, Russian twists, anything that puts their spine in a bent position, I would say, hey, these aren't bad, but these are not the best thing for you right now.

So I'd help them find modifications to those movements to still try to get a good workout and promote movement without flaring up their back. But if it's someone who they're like, hey, my back's good, I just want to train in the gym and have a healthy back. Then I would say do as many different exercises for your spine that you can think of. So do things where you're loading your spine forward and backwards, side to side and twisting.

We want to load our spine in various ways to expose it to various loads. So it can be robust and resilient in all motions. Love it. Now, as a chiropractor, how do you feel about back massages? Yeah. I mean, I think my response here is going to be somewhat bland. Honestly, back massages are great. Like, like here's the thing with massage. It's a passive therapy, which means something is being done to you. An active therapy would be me doing the thing. So rehab is an active therapy. Hey, you know, Sean, I'm going to teach you this exercise. I want you to do this exercise.

That's an active therapy. Hey, Sean, just lay down there. Don't do anything. I'm going to massage your back. That's a passive therapy. The evidence is very, very clear that passive therapies can be used as an adjunct. So in addition to active therapies, but active therapies, exercise and education, that's number one. That is number one treatment for low back pain, musculoskeletal disorders all day long, education and exercise. So if someone wants to also get a back massage, then great. It promotes mindfulness, right? It can be a huge stress reliever, huge anxiety reliever, maybe for some more than others. And so if they have a very stressful job, if they have a very stressful life and getting a massage is their escape from that, because we know through my

discussions earlier that many different mental components can affect someone's pain. If that is their ability to maintain a healthy mind, then it could be very important for their back pain journey. But it should at least be viewed as an adjunct to the active rehab plan. Absolutely. Have you ever woken up with a neck strain? Of course, everybody has, everybody will. Yeah, sure, man. You sleep weird, you wake up with that kink in the side of your neck and it's there pretty much most of the day. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. What's the best way to deal with that in your opinion? Oh, the best way to deal with it is to forget about it.

Really? Forget about it. Because sometimes I want to actually like say I can't move my head this way. Sometimes I force myself. No. Are you supposed to do that? No. I mean, well, once again, like there's really no right or wrong approach here because pain is normal.

It's what we do with that pain that can lead to pain and suffering. So if someone has, context is everything. Let's say someone had a history of chronic neck pain and he finally resolved it. And they're like, oh my gosh, like I thought my life was going to be over. This next pain is finally gone. I can get back to doing the things that I love. And let's say they're living their life for three months. And then let's pretend they have a very normal experience where they just sleep wrong and they just wake up with a kink in their neck. To them, they wake up and their nightmare is back. They're running to the ER. They're running for the injection. They're running for the opioids, whatever it might be. They're freaking out because they're like, my nightmare was here for years. It's back. I'm actually not healed. That could completely break their spirit. If they're told, Oh my gosh,

yeah, something's wrong. You need to do something about this. When with someone else, let's say you or I, maybe we don't have a neck issue. We wake up one day with a kink in it. I slept weird on my pillow. It'll be gone tomorrow. And 99% of the time it'll be gone tomorrow. And the worst thing you can do is to obsess about it and think, oh my gosh, something's wrong with me because I woke up with some pain. Pain's normal. It's what we do with it that can lead to a negative outcome. Absolutely. Dr. Grant, it's been awesome. Where can people find your content, learn more about you and get consulting. Yeah. Uh, rehab fix. We're at rehab fix on all platforms. Uh, we post free rehab videos and content instruction every single day across our platforms. Um, Instagram is our main hub. YouTube is quickly becoming a primary hub for us as well. So like I said, we reach people all over the world with low back pain,

disc herniations, and sciatica. And even more recently, I've been helping other physical therapists and chiropractors improve their business and their treatment as well. And so I'm starting to work one-on-one with other, whether they're online providers or brick and mortar, I've been starting to help them build their businesses and improve their outcomes and procedures as well. But yeah, we love helping people with back pain, get the right advice and get results faster than they've received anywhere else. Beautiful. If you guys have back pain, hit this man up. He's doing 200 consultations a week, so he knows what he's doing. Thanks for coming on, man. I appreciate it, Sean. We'll link everything below. Thanks for watching guys. As always,

see you next time.