Digital Social Hour - How This Simple Test Could Add Years to Your Life | Panos DSH #1223

Episode Date: March 7, 2025

Discover how this simple test could add years to your life! 🌟 Join Sean Kelly on the Digital Social Hour as he dives into a fascinating conversation with Panos from PNOE about the groundbreaking 7-minute breath analysis test. 🫁✨ Learn how understanding your breathing, metabolism, and VO2 max could transform your health, optimize your fitness, and even predict your biological age. 🕒💪 Packed with valuable insights on sleep apnea, cardio vs. strength training, and the power of biohacks like hyperbaric oxygen therapy, this episode is a must-watch for anyone looking to supercharge their longevity. 🌱 From nasal breathing tips to the four pillars of living longer and stronger, Panos shares the secrets to unlocking your body’s full potential. 🚀 Don’t miss out on this eye-opening conversation! Watch now and subscribe for more insider secrets. 📺 Hit that subscribe button and stay tuned for more transformative health tips on the Digital Social Hour with Sean Kelly! 💡🎉 Join the conversation in the comments below and share how YOU plan to optimize your health. 👇 CHAPTERS: 00:00 - Intro 00:34 - What is VO2 Max 03:26 - How Breathing Affects Health 07:17 - Athletes with Best VO2 Max Results 15:21 - How Lumen Started 20:45 - AI for Personalized Nutrition & Training 26:25 - PNOE's Presence in Greece 31:47 - What's Next for Panos 32:14 - Final Thoughts APPLY TO BE ON THE PODCAST: https://www.digitalsocialhour.com/application BUSINESS INQUIRIES/SPONSORS: [e-mail] GUEST: Panos https://linktr.ee/PNOE https://www.instagram.com/pnoe_analytics https://pnoe.com/ LISTEN ON: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/digital-social-hour/id1676846015 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5Jn7LXarRlI8Hc0GtTn759 Sean Kelly Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmikekelly/ #cancerbiomarkers #cysticfibrosis #sleepapnea #volatileorganiccompound #chemicalexposure

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that may be creating, may be giving rise to sleep apnea. There's a lot of integrative dentists nowadays that understand the interconnection between how your teeth are evolving and the likelihood of developing sleep apnea. Evaluating overall the morphology of your mouth and nose is super important. All right guys, got Panos here from Panoi.

We're gonna talk about the importance of breathing today. Thanks for joining us. Thank you so much for having me, Kelly. Yeah, so I just did one of your tests, right? And it was a seven minute test. Could you explain what happened? Yeah, absolutely. So PNOWI is a seven to 10 minute breath analysis test. You put a mask on, you breathe normally. And what the device does is that it analyzes how much oxygen you are consuming and how much carbon dioxide you're producing. And this is one of the most fundamental processes in the human body, because oxygen has to be

delivered to the cells for metabolism to happen. Metabolism is the process by which your cells will use oxygen to break down nutrients, that is the fats and carbs you get from the food that you eat, to release the energy that your body needs to survive, thrive, and do whatever daily functions you do. And if you think about it, every single major system and organ in our physiology developed to specifically support this function. You have lungs to absorb oxygen, you have a heart and a circulatory system to pump it. You have mitochondria to use it. And then you have a nervous system to coordinate all of that.

And so breath analysis is, which is a test we did, is actually the only assessment known to science that can reliably assess all of that process. Wow. And so it's a 10 minute test produces 23 biomarkers. And through these 23 biomarkers, by collectively analyzing them, we can paint the picture of how efficiently your lungs, your heart, your cells, your metabolism and your nervous system are working. And you know, some of these biomarkers are quite famous, like View-to-Max test or resting metabolic rate test. That's why

a lot of people tend to know this assessment as a View-to-Max test or a resting metabolic rate test. But there's a lot more to it, you know, as you just saw from the test that we did. to it, you know, as you just saw from the test that we did. And so, for example, this test is the only one that can tell you how efficiently you burn fats and carbs and how many fats and carbs your body is burning. It's also a test that can very reliably identify your biological age because view to max, according to the American Heart Association, is one of the best indicators for how long and well someone is gonna live. So overall, it's an assessment that has been around

for about a hundred years, up until we came along, it was very much in the sidelines for many reasons, we can talk about that. But it is because of the fact that it looks into so many different areas of physiology, an assessment that has very established clinical utility in the world of cardiology, in the world of pulmonology, endocrinology, sports science, and nutrition science.

Yeah, I just learned the importance of lifting weights, man. Yeah. We're going to throw out my results on the screen, but basically my age was four years above my real age, so I got some work to do. And I thought I was pretty healthy. So that was pretty interesting. People like you that are typically healthy may have gone through certain health stuffs in the past,

but they don't really know if there's any residual damage or things they need to be concerned about when it comes to things of the past, tend to have lingering issues that may be impacting what we call the oxygen flow through the body at that particular point in time. And although that may not be a clinically relevant thing and may not be considered a disease

if you were to go to the doctor, it is something that long-term can present certain issues and evolve into some sort of like chronic disease or, you know, major health event. So there's actually a lot of people out there that would be generally considered fit, but there is stuff to work on and that stuff isn't just, you know, superficial. It is something that would be considered important to deal with because 10 years or 20 years down the road, it may end up being something

considerable. I would say, because we've done like hundreds of thousands of tests up until now as a company, one of the most important things that people have as a problem that they're unaware of is some sort of anatomical issue with their breathing apparatus. And I use the term breathing apparatus because, you know, it's not just the lungs, but it's the diaphragm, it's the respiratory muscles, it's the nose, it's the mouth, it's the entire chain that enables oxygen to be absorbed. So there's a lot of people that develop mouth abnormalities that may lead to sleep apnea. And because that is mild at that point, it's not something that is clinically relevant. We have a lot of people that we test that have some sort of deviated septum

that is obstructing them from breathing from their nose. And, you know, not breathing from your nose is going to put you in this constant state of slight increase in sympathetic activation. And, you know, because of the neuroendocrine system in our body that can cause your hormones to go out of whack and then long term, you know, if you have that for 10 years, that may evolve into some sort of issue, right? And the other big thing that is now gaining a lot of attention in the clinical world is that if you have some sort of breathing issue that is causing you to have lower than normal CO2 levels in the blood, because of how important CO2 is in delivering oxygen

across the body that may end up evolving long-term into some sort of neuroinflammation in the brain and then neuroinflammation gives rise to neurodegeneration. So there's a very strong correlation behind how we breathe in, you know, likelihood of developing neurodegenerative conditions. And so, to your point earlier, there's a lot of people out there that think they're healthy, but once we dive and we double click into the components of the oxygen chain, right, your lungs, your heart, and your cells, we uncover certain things that, as I said, may not be relevant now and may not be life-depilitating now, but 10 years or 20 years down the road may very well be.

Yeah, I think that's what happened in my case. I had some nasty bronchitis during the pandemic and I actually just found out I'm allergic to penicillin now because they put me on so many antibiotics for growing up. So yeah, you got to take these tests. They're really important. Um, you mentioned a few things earlier. I did want to ask this first though. So since you've done hundreds of thousands of tests, I'm curious, which athletes had the best result, which sport. So, um, I mean, as expected sports that, uh, have a lot of cardio and endurance

component in them will typically yield athletes that score better in their view to max. But what's also very important for people to understand is that every type of exercise is gonna impact our biology differently. So if you're looking to have great mitochondrial function and great fat burn efficiency, doing endurance and zone two training and steady state cardio is going to be your best bet.

But if you want to have a high metabolism, you know, lifting weights is going to be better. So you may run into an endurance athlete that has incredible view to max, very good fat burn efficiency because they do a ton of cardio and a ton of steady state low intensity cardio, but that person may not have a great metabolic rate because as a matter of fact, doing a lot of cardio will suppress your metabolic rate because your body is being asked to cover large distances. And so it is becoming more economical because it's trying to conserve energy, right? And so on the flip side of things,

you can run into bodybuilding athletes, right? That have great metabolic rates because they have huge muscles and you know, they're also the muscle composition is such that enables them to burn more. The type of training you do will also impact the type of muscle that you end up developing, but these people will end up having not great fat burn efficiencies. So to your point earlier, yeah, every type of sport is going to optimize your biology

in one particular area, but it's very difficult to have like the super well-rounded perfect athlete that is almost optimal in all different areas. What I've observed is that at least in the world of triathlon and high rocks now that is becoming a very bad trend. What's high rocks? High rocks is like a new type of competition. Sort of like, you know, Spartan racing, or sort of like, you know, CrossFit. You know, people do a combination of resistance training competition with endurance, with an endurance component to it. And so what we are seeing is that people are now more cognizant of the fact that there's different areas in

their biology. And so they should never hyper optimize for one area because that will most likely leave another area deficient. And I mean, if you're a professional athlete, right, and that's your job, and, you know, you need to hyper optimize in one specific area, so be it. But if you're doing it for longevity, if you're doing it for fun, and then at some point in time, you expect that you're going to give up this sport in the sense that you're not going to be training as much, then it's very important to keep in mind that you should never leave any area underdeveloped because I can, you know, uh, hurt you down the road. For example, uh, endurance athletes that were great at fat burn efficiency and

view to max when they were endurance athletes and ended up having a very low metabolism because they became, they became very efficient, um, and ended up conserving energy during movement. When they give up the tens of hours of training during the week, they may end up gaining weight because they have a lower metabolism. So that's just an example to show that there's always a balance that you need to strike

and testing to see how you're fairing in all these areas is obviously hyper, you know, very important. Yeah, you see that with athletes that retire, they quickly put on weight. Some of them, right? Yeah. Yeah. Basketball players, runners. Yeah. That's super interesting. You mentioned the mouth breathing earlier. I've just seen this mouth taping trend. Yeah. A lot of people are, you know, understanding now that the way you breathe is such an important contributor to so many different areas of your health. I mentioned a few earlier.

So if you hyperventilate, you blow off too much CO2 that reduces whole body oxygenation. If you breathe with your mouth, you automatically up-regulate sympathetic activation, down-regulate parasympathetic activation. For our listeners, sympathetic, fight or flight, parasympathetic, rest, chill, recover. You obviously want to be in the parasympathetic as much as possible. The reason why breathing is going to so profoundly impact the activation of the sympathetic and the parasympathetic nervous system is because the way the nervous system is connected on your lungs.

You have the sympathetic connected on the upper part of the lungs and then the parasympathetic on the lower part of the lungs. That's why when you're a belly breather, you engage the diaphragm and you take deep breaths, you're activating the parasympathetic system. Whereas when you're a chest breather, you're this hectic, anxious breather that is, you know, in many times, a factor of mouth breathing, right, you will activate the sympathetic system. And so for all these reasons and more, you need to breathe as much

as possible from your nose, obviously in conditions of high exercise intensity it becomes impossible. But for the most part, especially obviously during our sleep, we need to be nose breathing. And, you know, it's understandable that people are trying to achieve that through mouth breathing. Breath work is going to be a very, very important ally if you have breathing abnormalities and you want to fix them. And then what I always like to tell people whenever we see someone that has breathing abnormalities, pay a visit to the doctor, see if you have a deviated septum, see if

you have some sort of mouth morphology that may be creating, maybe giving rise to sleep apnea, there's a lot of integrative dentists nowadays that understand the interconnection between how your teeth are evolving and the likelihood of developing sleep apnea. So evaluating overall the morphology of your mouth and nose is super important. Yeah. Because there's cases, right? Where, you know, you have a deviated septum and no matter

how much mouth tape you're going to be doing, you know, the nostril is blocked. You know, we need to unblock it. Right. How common are deviated septums? Fairly common. You know, there's, you know, people that have had accidents. There's many reasons that can lead to something like that. Yeah. I know sleep apnea and sleeping issues overall are getting pretty common too. Very common. And a lot of it has to do with breathing, right? Yeah. Yeah. There's a very big comorbidity with the fact that we are chewing food that is a lot softer than what it used to be.

James Nestor in his book about breathing talks about that a lot and it is so true. The fact that we're not consuming food that is natural is also certainly a contributor to the fact that we are seeing the sleep apnea epidemic that because of this strong comorbidity with neurodegenerative diseases, right, you know, ultimately, I think we're going to see a very big rise in, unfortunately, neurodegenerative conditions down the road for our generation, right, which we haven't yet seen.

You know, right now we're just seeing the first wave of symptoms, which is sleep apnea, but there are, as I said, second and third order effects that will, you know, unavoidably start to occur down the road. That's scary, man. That's scary. I know. Yeah. Is that a big reason why you started this company? So how we started as a company, it's so interesting. So I personally have no background in health. I did my first degree in mechanical engineering that was back in Greece, came to the U.S., did my graduate degree in mechanical engineering that was back in Greece, came to the US, did my graduate degree at Stanford, that was in engineering again.

I went into big tech, I was working in enterprise data centers and then Oracle for a little bit. And then my co-founder, Apostolos, he's my first friend in life, actually. We met first year, first day of elementary school. So we've known each other since the age of six. So we went through elementary, middle school, high school together, also undergrad. I was in the mechanical engineering school.

He was doing applied physics and math. He then went on to Cambridge, UK focusing to do his PhD on sensing technologies. And when he was there, he discovered the amazing world of breath analysis. Breath analysis is at the same time, such an old, but also such a new field. Old because this type of breath analysis called cardiomet metabolic testing has been around for about a hundred years. And he was like, this is such an important thing. Why isn't everyone doing it?

At least as part of their annual physical. And I always wanted to do something of my own. And you know, I found that that that was a very interesting idea. And we started working on that together. As I said, we were the first company to create a device that provides this assessment in an easy and practical way for the average clinic. And so that made the test a lot easier.

But then the other problem that we uncovered as we made the test easier is that the analysis, the interpretation, and also the prescription based on the information coming out of the test was also a very big issue. Because, you know, as I said, this test had been around for about 100 years, but it remained at the sidelines for decades, despite the fact that if you look at the clinical literature, there's so much information to establish it as a very, very important assessment. And so to address that, we made the hardware cheaper, more practical, more affordable, but then we also built the entire ecosystem of services and software to streamline the process for analyzing

the data and then providing wellness prescription, nutrition, training, bio-optimization so that clinics don't have to hire an entire team of experts to be able to analyze the information because the reality is that there's so much information coming out of your breathing and you know the time requirements and the certification and the skills and expertise required to analyze all the data pretty much made it cost prohibitive for the average clinic. That makes sense. That's probably why they didn't adopt it on a mass scale. Right? Yeah.

Cause growing up, I was never taught to do this type of test. No one ever brought it up. Exactly. And even like, you know, varsity athletes or professional athletes haven't even done the test. It's crazy. Wow. Now they probably are. Now there's obviously a big trend and you know, it's very important that people like Peter Attia,

Andrew Huberman and so many others like are talking about the value of Vue 2 Max. But it was because the hardware was very expensive and impractical, and also analyzing data was also very difficult and costly that kept that from entering mainstream adoption. Because we made it easy for the average health provider, we now have places like Equinox doing it.

We now have like resorts, like Four Seasons doing it. Yeah. Restore, you know, hyper wellness, like people in the longevity space, also people in the weight loss space. So we, you know, out of the people that we test, I would say vast majority of the people are actually the average

person who just wants to stay healthy and live as long as possible and as good as possible in terms of quality. It's really important data. I could see why insurance companies wouldn't want to cover this because it's pretty preventative. Once you can see that data, you can kind of map out what you want to do next. Yeah, totally. And at first principle, you should expect that payers would cover something like that. But that's a totally different discussion. The insurance industry is focused on so many different things.

Intrinsically, it's not financially motivated to prevent conditions, because at the end of the day, if health care costs go up, when health expenses go up, premiums go up, so they're basically passing on the cost to the consumer. But whenever you have this coexistence of the payers also being providers, and also having like the entire stack of health services under one roof, then obviously you have, you start to see a lot more motivation towards prevention and that's a great tool for preventative medicine.

That makes sense. Yeah. Since you've done so many tests, have you plugged in the results into some AI software to kind of see any trends? Yeah. I mean, as I said earlier, one of the most interesting things that we see as time goes by is that, you know, things, limitations related to people's breathing is the number one thing. And then also, we started to see very interesting trends behind the

personalization of, you know, the nutrition, the training prescription that yields the best results for every individual. We test and obviously retest people and in between we take care of their nutrition and their training and their bio-optimization so we can start to determine what works and what doesn't for every individual. And obviously what works most effectively is what people are looking for.

Right. Have you seen pretty good results with that? Yeah. And is it pretty personal or is there kind of one set formula? So there's obviously basic things that apply to everyone. So yeah, you need to do weight training, you need to do cardio training, you need to do cardio training, you need interval training, but then you start to see a lot of benefits and a lot of, you know, greater results whenever you personalize the amount, for example, of resistance, cardio and interval training that every person should do. Got it.

Yeah. I saw you on my results, I said to do cryo, red light, hyperbaric oxygen. Yeah. So something else that we do as a company that is very important for the clinics we work with is we can take all of their bio-optimization services, plug them in our software, and we can provide a curated list of bio-optimization services that the client should undergo based on their limitations and obviously based on what is available in the practice. And that is becoming a very powerful upselling tool for our clinics because it sort of bridges

the gap between what could I do in your clinic and what should I do based on the limitations that are personal to me. Right, I'm a big fan of the Hyperbaric. Yeah, you know, out of the bio-optimization services that you will find out there, so your cryos, your red lights, Hyperbaric oxygen exposure is probably one of the most well studied ones, and the one that has shown

very significant and powerful impacts. Pretty much across the board when it comes to you know healing from wounds, healing from injuries, but then also in many cases you know brain injuries, neuro generative conditions and so on and so forth. I mean the mechanism behind hyperbaric oxygen is like very fundamental, you're increasing pressure. And so the chances and the amount of oxygen that you plug into the cells is much greater. And because, you know, oxygen is such an important thing

for healing, you're basically speeding up the healing process across the body. That's why it is something so powerful. Yeah. Certain athletes will go to higher altitudes to train harder, right? Yeah, that's a different mechanism, uh, than a hyperbaric oxygen exposure. This is basically exposing your body to a condition of lower pressure. Uh, but hyperbaric oxygen is increasing the pressure.

And because you increase the pressure, you force more oxygen into the cell. And as I said, because more oxygen means more healing, then you speed up the healing process wherever that is needed. Yeah, that makes sense. I'm big on saunas too. Uh, you know, sauna, like very big on saunas as well. And then also combining it with a cold plunge, you know, this combination of cold and hot exposure. I mean, we've noted, we've known, we've known it, you know, for,

you know, millennia now, if you go to Pompeii, one of the first things you see is the ancient Roman baths, which had cold exposure and hot exposure. Wow. Yeah. So we've known that for a long time and it's very important that people are now gravitating towards all of these things. You're seeing like saunas and cold plunge in the entire gamut of income spectrum. Like you have the bath houses in New York, but then you also have Russian Banya and more affordable options. So it's obviously a big trend and looks like a lot of people are taking these things a lot more seriously

because they can very much have an impact in your biology. Obviously the four pillars for longevity, as I like to think of them would be to move well, eat well, sleep or recover well, love and be loved. No, we should never forget about the fourth one. Such an important thing. But then you can have all of these additional services like hyperbaric, sauna, cold exposure, and so on that can very much supercharge the impact of nutrition and training. I love that.

Yeah, people focus on the wrong things first, right? Some people love the biohacking stuff and they eat like crap. Yes, obviously. As I like to say, it always starts under the squad rack. We need to start under the squad rack, but obviously there's a lot more besides that that we can do to be smarter and ultimately get the biggest bang out of all the time and the commitment and the effort that we're putting behind our longevity, right? Absolutely. Does Panoi have a big presence in Greece back home where you're from?

Yes, so we have a big team in terms of like our development team or manufacturing and then some operations functions are based in Greece. All of our business development and sales is done here in the United States and we have a facility in Boston. We're thinking of opening one in Miami soon but then we also have customers in Greece. As I said, we sell a lot into the hospitality space. We have some pretty big resorts that we work with in Greece. But our main focus is the US market. We sell to clinics and businesses in the health space.

It can be anything from high-end fitness all the way up to primary care and specialty care. Obviously very big in integrative medicine. And if someone wants to get tested, we have a locator we're gonna share with you and it can be public. So if you want to, you know, for consumers that want to get tested, you know, we can send them to one of our trusted affiliates. And yeah. I love it, dude. I've been to 20 countries.

Greece has been my favorite. Nice. Yeah, I went to Crete. Athens was okay. I love Crete. Which part of Crete? I couldn't tell you. I was a kid, but it was by the water.

I'm sure everywhere. Crete is amazing. Crete was actually one of the longevity hotspots of the world. Really? Yeah, I didn't know that. Yeah. I mean, a lot of people think about the five blue zones, Costa Rica, Sardinia, Icaria in Greece, Okinawa, and then Loma Linda, California.

These were the five that were most popularized through the documentary that aired on Netflix recently. But there were many other blue zones in the past. I think Crete ceased to be one late seventies, early eighties. And obviously it has to do with the intrusion and invasion of the Western way of living. Which is the same reason why, if you look at all of the five blue zones,

four of them are about to completely fade away. Whoa. With the exception of, which one would you say? I would guess the one in Japan. Loma Linda, California. What? Yes, sir. And I would guess the one in Japan. Loma Linda, California. What? Yes, sir. And I don't know why that is.

It's because people there are already in the, you know, midst of the Western type, the very unhealthy Western living lifestyle. Right. And they have taken a very conscious decision to say no to all of the things that make Western lifestyle unhealthy. And they're very conscious and mindful of what they need to do to remain healthy.

Right. Whereas the remaining four blue zones do not really had the, uh, then really have exposure to all of this unhealthy lifestyle. Uh, and so they're kind of oblivious to, you know, what works, what doesn't. They obviously have a lot of their traditions, right? They're now fading away. Um, and that's why you started to see this gradual decline in these, um, other blues. Wow.

I didn't know that. Yeah. So they're going to be going away soon. Unfortunately. in these other blues. Wow, I didn't know that. So they're gonna be going away soon. Unfortunately, I mean, you know, what we hope through this longevity movement to achieve is that, you know, our world becomes a blues zone, right? No, why should it be that, you know, only a few select locations around the world

only have this, you know, privilege of getting to a hundred, you know, Loma Linda, California, I think is probably the best example. Yeah. That, you know, you, I think is probably the best example. That you can be very much in the midst of, in the very center of unhealthy living. But if you make certain decisions about your lifestyle, you weight train, you have powerful, strong community, close relations to people, focus on healthy nutrition that is predominantly whole food plant-based, then inevitably you're going to have a very positive impact in your longevity.

Yeah, I think that community aspect is often overlooked. There's a lot of people in the health space that just focus on numbers and analytics. Yeah, yeah. And there's a very strong bidirectional relationship between the fourth pillar, the love and beloved and the remaining three. So, you know, we kind of expect that, you know, humans will become robots and they will eat perfectly, train perfectly and then sleep perfectly when they're not loved and they don't have anyone to love. Right. When the fourth pillar goes away, then obviously you start to see people neglecting their training,

neglecting taking care of themselves in whatever way that is important. And so, there's obviously a lot of direct biological impact that emotional wellbeing has on our biology, but then it's the second and third order effect, which is, you know, you take away, you know, the love component, and then all of a sudden you don't eat as well. You don't train, you don't sleep as well. So, you know, there's that as well.

Yeah. Well, Pano, so what's next for you? Where can people learn more about Pinoy and keep up with you man. So certainly follow us on Instagram, Panoi Analytics. Visit our website, Panoi.com, pnoe.com. Something for people to know, Panoi stands for breath in Greek. And you know, breath analysis is what we do. And you know, we look forward to bringing breath analysis to the world. Yeah, I highly recommend taking the test, guys. I learned a lot today. Can't wait to start improving, and I'll probably retest in like six months.

Yeah, and we look forward to seeing you in Miami. Yep, I'll be there for F1. So maybe I could retest there. Yeah, yeah, perfect. That'd be good. Start waving everything. Awesome, check them out, guys. See you next time.

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