Digital Social Hour - Mark Sisson On Selling Primal Kitchen for $200M, Importance of Grounding & Peluva | DSH #218

Episode Date: January 7, 2024

On today's episode of Digital Social Hour, Mark Sisson talks about the dangers of seed oils, why he grounds every single day and how he built Primal Kitchen to a $200M company. APPLY TO BE ON THE PODCAST: https://forms.gle/qXvENTeurx7Xn8Ci9 BUSINESS INQUIRIES/SPONSORS: [e-mail] SPONSORS: Opus Pro: https://www.opus.pro/?via=DSH Deposyt Payment Processing: https://www.deposyt.com/seankelly LISTEN ON: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/digital-social-hour/id1676846015 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5Jn7LXarRlI8Hc0GtTn759 Sean Kelly Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmikekelly/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

America. We are endowed by our Creator with certain unalienable rights, life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. By honoring your sacred vocation of nursing, you impact your family, your friends, and your community. At Grand Canyon University, our online RN to BSN, MSN, or DNP degree programs allow you to balance online coursework with local in-person clinical, practicum, or immersion hours. Find your purpose at gcu private christian affordable visit gcu.edu you've tried out all sorts of diets right right what have you seen work the first one to say there's no right diet right there's there's like the holy grail of fitness which in my book is metabolic flexibility when you develop this metabolic flexibility you're able develop this metabolic flexibility,

you're able to burn off your stored body fat and arrive at an ideal body composition. Welcome back to the show, guys. I'm your host, as always, Sean Kelly. Got a great guest for you guys today, Mark Sisson. How's it going, man? It's going great. Good to see you, Sean. I know you sent me some shoes and I've been wearing them. Is that your main focus? That's my main focus. You know, I've been in this health and fitness gig for 30 years writing about ways in which we can optimize health. And foot health has always been sort of a secret passion of mine. I was an endurance athlete in my 20s

and one of the best marathon runners in the country. Nice. But I was always sort of compromised by the shoes best marathon runners in the country. Nice. And, um, but I was always sort of compromised by the shoes that were available at the time. Uh, and as I got into other areas of health and fitness and started writing about diet and exercise and, and sun exposure and sleep, I sort of overlooked the whole foot health thing and, and shoe comfort. And then after I sold my last company, Primal Kitchen, I had time and I had the means with which to start this new passion project of mine,

which is to change the way the world walks. Wow. So my thesis is that modern footwear is horrible for feet, most modern footwear. Most running shoes are bad for people and encourage people to run the wrong way and to develop injuries. And so we kind of reimagined the concept of minimalist footwear and designed a shoe that's foot-shaped,

that is wide but thin, flat, flexible, kind of combines the best elements of the prior efforts at minimalist footwear into one modern approach that we think also looks pretty, pretty cool. Nice. Yeah. Foot health is one of those things that isn't taught about, isn't talked about. No, it's, it's like, as we say, foot health is new sleep. You know, sleep was the big thing, you know, last year and a couple of years ago, but we think foot health is this new thing. Look, your feet are your connection to the ground and how you move around this, this earth, um, starts with your contact with the ground. And it requires that your toes individually sort of articulate and feel the surface of the ground and be in a position to inform your brain how to land. Every time you take a step forward, the, the sensory input into

your foot should tell your brain how to bend the ankle, how to flex the knee, how to torque the hip, how to bend certain muscles in certain ways to absorb the shock. And yet modern footwear bypasses all that information with big, thick, stiff, cushioned heels and soles that kind of sound good, and they sound like you're walking on air and walking on a cloud. But over time, they actually create problems with a lot of people. For sure.

The amount of times I've rolled my ankle is, I can't even count. Well, and you roll your ankle because it's not strong. Because if you don't spend time barefoot, or in minimalist shoes, then your feet never develop. The small muscles of your feet never get a chance to get strong.

And the toes don't get a chance to articulate and the big toe in particular gets strong enough to push off with the right sort of gait and so you wind up with these misshapen feet. I mean people talk about bunions and plantar fascia problems and all these other things, but rolling an ankle is a common issue with somebody who's worn stiff-soled shoes for a long time and has weak ankles because they just haven't used the muscles in their feet. Dude, I didn't realize how weak my ankles were until they had me started doing stretches and PT for it. I'm like, oh my God, I'm just shaking standing on one leg right now. It's pathetic. Well, I mean, you know, it's

pathetic and yet it should be an aha moment. Like this is something i need to deal with and as look you're a young guy as you get older yeah that shit gets worse that's even worse yeah so i'm 23 rolling my ankle every time i play basketball yeah they're so weak not good yeah yeah so i started walking around uh barefoot and it helped a lot yeah and again i sent you some shoes and if you spend some time in them and and you hike now. I was a career runner. I ran 100 miles a week for seven years in my career. I was all about the running. And then I realized that running is, we're really not designed to run that way. Yeah, we're designed to run a little bit in a sprint, but we're mostly designed to walk. And so now I spend most of my sort of aerobic time walking, hiking in the woods or walking even on pavement.

But you have to walk the right way. You have to be in a position to optimize your gait and strengthen your feet and legs and your entire kinetic chain while you're doing it. Otherwise, it's almost a waste of time. Absolutely. You ever see those professional speed walk races? Oh, yeah. It's crazy. No, people can speed walk almost as fast as people can run. I can see that. I mean, most people can't.

What's interesting is, you know, you think about how fast walking is, and it's not that fast. But most people can't run, cannot run twice as fast as they walk. Twice as fast. You know, so if you walk a 16-minute mile, most people can't run an 8-minute mile for any length of time. Wow. Yeah, right? 8 minutes was always easy for me.

Yeah, well, same, but, you know, we're skinny dudes. You know, but for most people, you know, people who are, I think I read the other day the average time for a marathon is 4 hours and 40 minutes. And that's 26 miles, so. Yeah, that's is 4 hours and 40 minutes. That's 26 miles. Yeah, that's 10-minute miles. 10-minute miles for 26 miles? Yeah.

Yeah, that's pretty slow. So anyway, I don't want to demean people who run marathons. I want to be a runner too. But you get the fact that if you understand that walking does not create injuries. Running creates injuries. Walking does not create injuries. Running creates injuries. Walking doesn't create injuries. You can walk pretty much as far as you want, as long as you want, and you won't get injured.

In fact, most runners recover from their injuries by walking. Right. You know what I mean? And so as soon as you start running again, and particularly if you're a heel striker, which is not the way to run. So where are you supposed to land? You're supposed to land when you run. Proper not the way to run. We were not, are you supposed to land? You're supposed to land when you run proper running form is to run on the midfoot. Okay. You know, and if, again, if you're a, a thin person who has good running technique and good running

abilities, then that comes naturally. But the problem with running shoes for most people is these thick, thick, thick soles encourage people to heel strike because you don't feel anything. You don't feel anything immediately, but then over time, all of that energy goes up to your hips. And so people don't get, they don't get foot problems, but they get maybe ankle problems or knee problems or lower back problems as a result of bypassing all this information. You know, like when you run barefoot, if you run barefoot on concrete, your body automatically tells you,

you know, your brain tells you how to land. You land softly, you run quietly, you run on your tiptoes. There's no way you could run, you could heel plant barefoot on concrete. You'd stop after three steps. So that's the ideal way to run is midfoot. But these modern running shoes sort of, again,

they just don't encourage that, and they encourage heel striking. So we're trying to change all that, Sean. So as a former professional runner, you're basically advocating against running. I mean, it sounds like that, doesn't it? And I am. I'm advocating against it for those people who probably biomechanically or physically should not run. I mean, people who are 30 or 40 pounds overweight probably should not run a marathon. And if they do, they should, you know, like, I'll train you once to, you know, you could say you did it and

ran a marathon. But it's much more physically appropriate to be doing walking or hiking long distances that way, particularly if you're intending to lose weight. Like running is actually not a good way to lose weight if you're somebody who's overweight. It's a horrible way to lose weight. Yeah. Well, because the calories that you burn in whatever workout you did, the brain kind of goes, hey, man, we just burned off, you know, 600 calories. We got to eat. We got to replace that. And so there's no mechanism by which you can run off all of the calories and then not eat them and not consume them, which is why you see over time, you see over years, over decades,

you see people who have been running a long time and still have the same 20 or 30 pounds to lose. Because it's mostly about diet at that point. Yeah. So let's dive into that because you've tried out all sorts of diets, right? Right. What have you seen work? Well, so I've seen a lot of things work. So there's no, I would say, the first one to say, there's no right diet, right? There's no, but there are, there's like the holy grail of fitness, which in my book is metabolic flexibility. You develop a metabolic flexibility.

And what that means is that's the ability of the body to burn for energy whatever substrate happens to be available. It could be the fat on your body, the body fat. It could be the glycogen in your muscles. It could be the fat on your plate of food. It could be the carbohydrates on your plate of food. It could be the glucose in your bloodstream. It could be the ketones that your liver makes in the absence of glucose. When you develop this

metabolic flexibility, you're able to burn off your stored body fat and arrive at an ideal body composition. How do you do that? Well, metabolic flexibility, first of all, you have to be good at burning fat. Most people are good at storing fat, but they're not that good at burning fat. And that's partly because their whole life they've been eating a very carbohydrate-rich diet, and the body tends to want to burn off the carbohydrates first. It doesn't want to burn the fat. Body looks at fat and says, you know, this is an emergency fuel. We better not use it, you know, on a whim. We should probably be burning off the readily available carbohydrates. Well, our diets are so carbo-high now that people never tap into that ability to burn fat. So what we do

in a lot of instances when developing metabolic flexibility, like the keto diet, for instance, or the carnivore diet, are two examples of where you withhold carbohydrates. And then the body sort of has to go, well, if I'm not going to get any carbohydrates, and I'm not going to have any glucose, and I'm not going to store any glycogen, I better learn how to burn fat. And we have this information in our genes. Everybody has the information on how to burn fat. It's just that if you never develop that skill, like any other skill, then you continually add fat over a lifetime and you never burn off the stored body fat. So this creation of metabolic flexibility would say, okay, if I withhold carbohydrates, either by eating a keto diet or a carnivore diet,

or if I skip meals, or if I intermittently fast, which is another way of going long periods of time without taking in carbohydrate, then the body builds this metabolic machinery to become more efficient at burning fat and to become more efficient at using ketones as a fuel for the brain. So it's an amazing sort of skill that we can develop in this arena of metabolic flexibility. And once you have that, then things like appetite and hunger and cravings, they dissipate. Because you have those hunger cravings and you have that appetite because the brain thinks that you're running out of fuel. It's all mental. So when your body is able to access these other energy sources, then there's no frantic message from the brain, we have to eat, we have to eat. The brain goes, hey, I'm burning off body fat. This is great.

I'm burning the ketones that my liver makes. This is amazing, and I don't need to eat. And so it's not a problem, but one of the things that people say in terms of developing metabolic flexibility is sometimes they go, oh, dude, I haven't eaten for a day. I forgot to eat because I wasn't hungry, and I didn't need to eat, and so maybe I should eat. It's, again, a great, it's a very empowering place to find yourself. I think I might have developed it by accident because I used to eat breakfast every day,

and at first it was tough to stop. I would get the message from my brain to eat. But then when I started intermittent fasting, you know. That's the first thing that goes for a lot of people. Yeah. Intermittent fasting. You wake up in the morning and go, I'm not hungry. Like I have this energy and I don't feel like eating.

Exactly. And if I don't feel like eating, then really, why should I eat? Because it's kind of, you know, it's kind of wasteful to eat. It wastes time. I mean, breakfast takes time. It takes time, yeah. And again, if my brain is firing on all cylinders because I'm using ketones and I'm burning fat for my muscular activity, then that's a beautiful state to be in. That's also a place where most

people are undergoing a certain type of internal repair called autophagy, where the body starts to do some house cleaning and repairs damaged cells and takes the opportunity of not having any food around to combust or burn up damaged fats and proteins and use them as fuel and get rid of them so they're not causing scar tissue or precancerous situations. Wow.

And, you know, growing up, they're taught, they're teaching us to eat three meals a day. Breakfast is the most important meal. You know, do you think Americans are just eating too much in general? That's a great question. And, and the answer is a hundred percent. Yes. Like I think everybody eats too much for the most part. I mean, we can talk about the, you know, the, the one or 2% of, of us in this field who know, uh, exactly how much it takes to get through a day. Um, you know, I think most people look at life because we have access to so much food. They look at life like, okay, what's the, what's the most amount of food I can eat and not gain weight, right? What's the biggest meal I can order here and not feel

gluttonous or not feel bad about myself. What's the biggest meal I can order here and not feel gluttonous or not feel bad about myself? What's the biggest piece of cheesecake that I can have and not feel bad? And so people go through life thinking, okay, I'm going to eat as much as I can. I want a fast metabolism so I can burn it off so I can eat more. And years ago, I did a thought experiment. I said, well, that's really interesting, but what if you flip that on its head and you said, what's the least amount of food I can eat and maintain muscle mass or even still build muscle mass, have all the energy I want, not get sick, and most importantly, not be hungry?

Because hunger kind of ruins everything. So if you ask that question, what's the least amount of food I can eat and maintain muscle mass to have energy and not get sick, it turns out it's probably 30 or 40% fewer calories than you think you needed to get through life. Now, what's the difference between that 30%? Some people, some people, it never manifests itself as an increased weight gain. They just sort of, their body revs up their metabolism and they burn it off through what they call the thermogenic effective food or they their body just temperature runs at a higher level because they're always trying to the body's always trying to burn off these calories some people store that

excess as as body fat but insidiously over time so it might be a half pound a pound a year but you know in 10 years that's 10 pounds in 30 years that's 10 pounds. In 30 years, that's 30 pounds. Yeah, so I think people generally eat too much food, and I think they'd be surprised if they did this little experiment at how little food they need to not just survive, but thrive and feel good. And again, if you get hungry, forget it. It's not working. So the whole thing is how do you control hunger? And you control hunger by developing this metabolic flexibility. How long would you say it takes to develop that on average? I would say that 80% of the results come in the first six weeks. And then because you've gotten such fast results, the rest of it takes longer,

maybe another six months to get another 10 or 15%. But look, 80% of that benefit coming in just six weeks of doing that. I mean, I say 50% of the benefit comes in the first three weeks. Just being really, you know, attentive about your strategy and sticking to it and paying attention to the signals and understanding when you're actually hungry versus like when you said you were a breakfast guy for so long.

Yeah. Part of that was you were just habituated to breakfast. It wasn't even that you needed to eat. I didn't even like breakfast. Right. It was just that you were habituated. And it was just, okay, that's what I do. Like a chore almost.

Yeah, yeah. But if you break down what it takes to maintain muscle mass, to maintain energy, it's not like 120 grams of protein a day for someone like you or for someone like me. It's not 180 for anybody, but it's probably not less than 80. So that 100, 120 grams a day, well, that's only 480 calories of protein. There's usually some fat attached to the protein if you're having eggs or steak or something like that. And then if you're cutting back on grains,

if you're not eating bread, pasta, cereal, cookies, cakes, candies, desserts, soft drinks, then you're kind of relegated, I would say, to eating fruits and vegetables. But you can't get a lot of carbs eating copious amounts of fruits and vegetables. Right. And then the rest, you fill in the rest with some healthy fats, some butter, some olive oil, some avocado oil, things like that.

And you've handled all of the nutrient requirements, all the macros you need. And it's not that, you know, maybe for some people it's around 2000 calories, certainly not 3600 or 4200 calories, which is what I see people consuming here at the buffets. In one meal? In one meal. I've been guilty of that before. So you're not a fan of that saying where one gram of protein for every body pound or whatever? Well, but if you said one gram for every pound of

lean mass, you know, in my case, that might be 140 grams. Okay, that's in that same arena. And if you take a, you know, if we take the outliers like the 300-pound bodybuilder that has 2% fat, of which there are very few in this world, you know, then maybe 300 grams a day is appropriate. But for most people, it fits in that range of like minimum of 80 to a maximum of 150. And if you settle in around on an average of 120 grams a day, for most people, I think you'd be well served. I was only giving that example to say, even at 120 grams a day, that's only 480 calories. And then if you fill in the rest with some vegetables, you're not going to eat 600 calories worth of vegetables.

No, that's too much. And then what? The rest is fat. And the fat comes from either the fat in the meat or the oils in the dressings or the butter that you cook the food in or whatever. Yeah. We've talked about diet, talked about benefits of walking. What about sleep?

You know, I'm a big fan of sleep. I'm 70 years old and I have never pulled an all-nighter in my entire life. That's impressive. Including college, including going to clubs in my entire life. That's impressive. Including college, including going to, you know, clubs in my youth, including rages and raves and everything else. I can't, I cannot abide not sleeping. It's just, it's just not in my DNA. And I think it's a, it's a survival mechanism that a lot of people kind of bypass and overlook. And so I, you know, I will be forced to stay up late sometimes, like 1.30, 2.30, something like that, maybe at the max.

But the problem is I wake up at the same time every day. So I don't get the eight or nine hours of sleep that I would like to get. So that's, I think sleep is a really, and it's obviously you've been reading a lot about it in the last five years. It's the new, again, it's the new big thing. But, you know, foot health is the new big thing, surpassing sleep. But sleep is critically important.

For the longest time, you know, it was overlooked. But I think people are, you know, recognizing that. And it's good. It's good to have the, you know, the excuse, but it's okay to sleep. It's okay to go to bed early and, and maybe sleep in a little bit. It's so dumb. I remember in high school, you were like considered cool if you only slept like four or five hours. Yeah. It's like, Oh, you slept at 9 PM. You're a dude. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So I used to get hate on, but, uh, I want to dive into Primal Kitchen. I mean, built that to a $200 million company in three, three and a half years and then exited. Yeah. So I used to get hate on. But I want to dive into Primal Kitchen.

I mean, built that to a $200 million company in three and a half years and then exited. Yeah. I mean, that's some of the fastest growth I've ever heard of. Well, you know, it's a 40-year overnight success story. So for 40 years, I've been writing about diet and exercise and health and fitness. And I started Mark's Daily Apple, my blog, in 2006, where I really focused on diet. I mean, I talked about sun exposure and sleep and play and lifting weights and cardio and all the other things, but it was really kind of focused on food.

And over the years, I was writing, every Friday we'd have a recipe about how to make your own whatever, and usually it was some sauce or some dressing. Because what I realized from the work that I did and the investigation into the primal blueprint and the way of eating, which was basically real food, natural food, when you get rid of pies, cakes, candies, cookies, grains, pasta, cereal, and you come down to meat, fish, fowl, eggs, nuts, seeds, vegetables, a little bit of fruit, maybe some starchy tubers, it's not a big list of food. And what makes the difference is the sauces, the dressings, the toppings,

the methods of preparation. That's what makes this way of eating sustainable. And then there are infinite ways to make them, which are amazing, but you have to incorporate these herbs and these spices. And then I realized we were offering up a recipe every Friday. I even published a book in 2011 called The Primal Blueprint Healthy Sauces, Dressings, and Toppings. And I thought, this is going to crush.

And I was a publisher, so I printed 50,000 copies and we, cause I'd sold a hundred thousand copies of the, of the primal blueprint, the earlier book. I'm like, I'm we're riding the crest here. And, uh, it's all like 6,000. Yeah. And I realized no people don't want to make these sauces and dressings. They want to buy them. And so in 2014, I thought, you know, this is kind of crazy. People get that they want to eat clean, but there are no, you go to the grocery store, and there are no clean condiments, and there are no clean mayonnaises, and there are no clean salad, really clean salad dressings. I mean, Newman's Own, which was sort of the, you know, I would say the cleanest of the offerings at the time, you'd go and open up the ingredients for extra virgin olive oil dressing,

and that was like the fourth type of oil after canola, soybean, and I'm like, dude, all the seed oils. So the timing of Primal Kitchen was right because we, this community, had spent the prior five years talking about seed oils and how bad they were, talking about the benefits of avocado oil, of extra virgin olive oil, and the good oils and differentiating them. And so when we launched our first product in March of 2015, it was avocado oil-based mayonnaise.

And it just took off. It was incredible, the growth that we had. It was just one product. And that first year, we projected that maybe we'd sell $300,000 worth of product, and we sold a million seven. Nice. And so going into the next year, we're like, it's going crazy. We're like, what can we do this year? And we started adding a few salad dressings, and we started adding some more different flavors of mayonnaise. And we're like, are we being greedy if we predict that we're going to do 6 million this year?

And we did 6 million by June. Yeah. So then we pretty much, you know, I think we did 11-something that year. And so it grew rapidly. Now, one of the reasons that I sold it was I realized that that kind of growth is not sustainable for a startup that doesn't have access to a lot of capital, a lot of the resources like the distribution resources and things like that. So by the end of 2017, we knew, my co-founder and I knew that we were going to be selling it. And so we started looking

at who the partners would be. And then by maybe April of 2018, we put it out. We didn't put it out to bid, but we were started to really hone in on who our best partner would be. And Kraft Heinz became that partner. And it's been amazing. I mean, they acquired us January 3rd of 2019 and have been nothing but supportive. We kept the entire team. We kept the headquarters in Oxnard, California. We have all of our same co-packers and manufacturers. We buy the ingredients the same way. You know, Kraft Heinz is a large company that acquires different brands, and they acquired us because they saw that we were a leader

in that whole area of better-for-you sauces and dressings and toppings. And my mission was to change the way the world eats. Nice. That goes back to Mark's Daily Apple, 2006. I just was to change the way the world eats. Nice. That goes back to Mark's Daily Apple, 2006. I just want to change the way the world eats, whether by information, education, by seminars, by books, by podcasts. And ultimately, it was through a food company that got more and more people interested in better-for-you condiments.

And they read the label and go oh my god i didn't realize that my my other ketchup had high fructose corn syrup and all this other crap in it and this one is you know quote clean yeah man i'm glad you got people off seed oils because they're so bad for you well they're still on them i mean you know we still see a lot of people um who haven't gotten that message yet i mean i meant on your products. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, yeah, certainly on ours. That was always the directive, was no bad ingredients, no harmful ingredients. And I'm happy to hear Kraft didn't make you change the ingredients because...

This was an assumption that people had. Big food is going to come in. I see that. And so I got some hate for selling out early. But the company's grown more rapidly through them than it could have with my personal guarantees against loans, against my house, and everything else. Oh, you went all in. Oh, I went all in. Are you kidding me? I was all in. I was the only investor until-

Oh, you self-funded? Yeah. Self-funded, yeah. So there's a point at which you go, you know, this, this is, this is pretty scary to have, you know, $10 million that I don't have, you know, that I owe on a line of credit because I'm buying up all the avocado oil in the world so that somebody else doesn't get it. Yeah. It's crazy. I saw this thing on Instagram. Most avocado oils have seed oils in them.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, so that's an interesting, there's a, UC Davis has been doing a study over the years. They started with extra virgin olive oil and they discovered adulterated olive oils. And so that became a big scandal in the olive oil industry for a long time.

We started testing our oil from day one. We were aware of the possibilities. And so we've had third-party independent testing of our oils from the beginning. And then they test not only for what they think are adulterating oils. So people might cut a walnut oil or an avocado oil or even an olive oil with safflower or much cheaper oils. So there's a profile that you can see on a gas chromatograph that will identify different fatty acid profiles. And so you can sort of create, you know, see what it is that's in there

and see if it matches the spec for true virgin avocado oil, for instance. But they also test for peroxide value, which is a measure of rancidity. So oils that have been opened and left open for a while or that have been bottled in a clear bottle versus a dark bottle. Oh, the modders? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because these oils, the interesting thing is

that the better the oil is for you, the more volatile it is, the more easily it goes rancid because it's the things that make it healthful when it's pure and natural and fresh that can go against you when these unattached bonds get saturated or transaturated or get rancid as a result of this exposure to

oxidation things like that interesting the best olive oil i ever had was in greece i could drink it yeah yeah i can't drink good olive oil because it sticks in the back of my throat it really but that's that's a measure the bite that a that an olive oil has is a measure of how good it is i guess yeah yeah mark it's been a pleasure, man. What's next for you? You're 70 years old, got a new business. You want to retire ever? Well, I tried to retire after I sold Primal Kitchen. I tried to retire and it didn't work. And that's why this, this foot, uh, this, this shoe business is footwear. This foot health has been a passion of mine for a long time. And I'm like, okay, this is, this is the timing is right. Like

as I'm sure you have heard from other guests on your show, in business, you have to have a great idea, you have to have a good team, but timing is also really critical in when you bring your product to market. And I think there's a real opportunity here to educate the world on the importance of foot health,

on the importance of it, not just in terms of general health, but balance over as you get older in your lifetime. Balance is a big thing for me now. I don't want to fall and break anything. I know people that have died from falling at an old age. It's a real thing. I just think people want to have access to mobility for as long as they can.

They want to be able to walk. I see people in their 30s and 40s that are limping now. Wow. Partly because they can't do the work all the way up the kinetic chain because their feet are in such bad health, they can't get that first ground contact to work in their favor. And so the imbalance is then compound as you go up the kinetic chain. Time to stop that.

Yeah. Thanks for coming on, Mark. Thanks for mark thanks for having me sean yeah thanks for watching guys check out paloova shoes if you care about your foot health and thanks for watching