Digital Social Hour - Rene Rodriguez On Body Language, Multitasking & Public Speaking | Digital Social Hour #145

Episode Date: December 11, 2023

On today's episode of the Digital Social Hour Podcast, Rene Rodriguez talks about the importance of body language, why multi-tasking is overrated and how people can get better at communicating. BUSINESS INQUIRIES/SPONSORS: [e-mail] APPLY TO BE ON THE POD: https://forms.gle/qXvENTeurx7Xn8Ci9 SPONSORS: Policy Genius: https://www.policygenius.com/DSH LISTEN ON: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/digital-social-hour/id1676846015 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5Jn7LXarRlI8Hc0GtTn759 Sean Kelly Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmikekelly/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hands go up. How many of you said, I'm going to work so hard that I'll never put my kids to bed? And they go, yeah. And you go, that's where we messed up. So what else have you noticed? Because you're around a lot of successful people. What other commonalities have you seen of them? There's a lot, actually.

One, they manage who they spend their time with. They're very, very picky about who and how they spend their time. It's not that they're above anybody else. They just know that there's limited time. And so we all have the same amount of time in the day. They just spend it real differently. Welcome back to the show, guys. Digital Social Hour. I'm your host, Sean Kelly. Got a great guest for you guys today, Rene Rodriguez. How's it going? I'm super excited to be here, my friend. Yeah, I can't wait to dive into your story. Could you explain your story, actually,

for people that don't know who you are? So name is renee rodriguez and uh my background is in behavioral neuroscience and i've spent probably the last 30 years asking the question of cool so what does that mean right and so what does it mean to how i sell what does it mean to how i resolve conflict how i communicate how do i have a better family how do i persuade how do i influence and i've landed on what i think would be the central theme of what's most important to almost everybody which is influence so behavioral neuroscience so you majored in that in in college psychology and neuroscience yeah yeah a lot of people think it's it's i mean it's all brain research it's all looking at that but it's actually mostly even statistics which is what people don't realize

but yeah when you say statistics what do you mean by that looking at how to read statistics and experimental design and looking at like you're really psychology and statistics is a search for truth and so there's a lot of things that tell you one thing but when you look at the actual data and if you listen to somebody say well what does the literature say what they're looking at is what does the data say and they try one thing one way one thing another and it teaches you to be less emotional about something and actually a lot more objective right so you take a scientific approach to to your life basically yeah and and try to make it a way that actually is fun and also something that is more human but it's more over i want the clearest path from point a to point b versus an emotional

one which might take me to what i feel might be the best way to do it but actually this is seems to be the best way based on the data right and i'd say a large percentage of people react emotionally rather than objectively right we're designed to i mean it's it's it's what gives life its beauty it's also what gives us some of the most trouble right yeah yeah so it's it's it's got its good and it's bad so how did you fight that off like it's hard right like did it take time to well i think you know i'm i'm i'm an emotional person right and i think that's okay i want to be i want to i want to feel deep love i want to feel extreme joy but i also want to feel some of the the pain and the loss i think that's what gives

life its beauty is having the contrast of both but it's when it comes in making decisions where we have to really manage are we making an emotional one because i think that's where we're really in trouble men who become overly emotional become kind of dangerous right and you know relationships that become overly emotional just like anything can become volatile and so we have to have that balance somewhere in there yeah it seems like certain people can't control their emotions and i don't know if it's ego or they just can't handle it well there's a lot of things to it i mean that's where 1995 the time magazine came out with what's your eq daniel gorman wrote his book emotional intelligence right and it was since then people were saying well there's more to life than just

intellectual quotient, your IQ, that there's this ability to regulate my own emotion, the ability to empathize with how somebody else is feeling, and then develop skillsets to be able to meet you. Here's how I'm feeling, here's how you're feeling, maybe I should back off a little bit. Or here's how you're feeling, here's how I'm feeling,

you know what, maybe this is the time to push. That emotional intelligence to navigate that is probably the most important skill set i'd say wow and you mentioned you spoke at 237 conferences in the past year well 237 days i was speaking sometimes those are virtual events there are two and three sometimes five a day geez what makes you feel so strongly about giving that many talks you know it's what's interesting if i'm gonna be really honest the goal that i thought was speak as often as you can which is i believe in doing that i believe in putting reps in in life

yeah the more you do something i mean look at you and what you've done how many episodes in seven months 300 300 people like wow you're so lucky well okay one thing that's 300 episodes in seven months and most people i thought i was doing one a day or one a week was good yeah you know that's 300 and so that's getting reps and i'm assuming are you someone that doesn't have life insurance why leave anything up to chance in a worst case scenario luckily policy genius makes finding the right policy simple and their team of licensed experts are on hand to help you through it life insurance gives your family a safety net that they can cover expenses with so they don't have to worry about money while getting back on their

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You're better now than you were the first time. oh for sure i was terrible at first and so that's how i look at speaking and that's how i look at communicating a message and one-on-one is great most of our influence is one on one but then you go okay well what is one on two but what about one on ten but what about one on a hundred one on a thousand one on three. And so all of a sudden there's a different sort of, uh, amplified view or, or magnitude that you're able to impact. And so to me it was, how do I maximize impact? So you've been able to develop exceptional communication skills. So that was through repetition, but also just one-on-one with people. You're very good. So where did that come from? Practice. Like I'm, I'm naturally probably have a high social anxiety oh really

oh yeah like i'm an introvert big time oh i didn't get that vibe from you i hide it well but i think too it's it's interesting the i grew up probably being more extroverted and the more you do this the more you're around people non-stop i mean i spoke three times yesterday at a big conference here in vegas and then you do the speaking and then you got to do the book signing and then that's it let me rephrase that i don't got to do i actually get to that's actually a really good thing i love doing the book signing but then there's these expectations that follow and then you got to do the ask renee and then there's these things and it becomes a big pull and for me my energy is lower at the end of it and that's really what

determines an introvert and extrovertrovert is do you replenish your energy with people or do you replenish with a small group? So like this one-on-one, this is great. A happy hour, maybe one, two, three people is great. Intimate friends is great. I go to a happy hour, a social happy hour, and I'm usually quiet. Yeah.

Yeah, I've been introverted my whole life. People will think the opposite, but I kind of hide it too a little bit, think you know and i think that probably serves you well because you probably observe what's going on yeah i try to listen more than i speak which makes you a great podcaster i think it does yeah because some podcasters talk way too much in my opinion i've been on those i'm like thanks for having me on like when the host is talking more than the guest what's the point at that point you know it, it's, I'm just going to leave it at that. You're absolutely right.

Yep. I've seen your, you had an interesting take on multitasking. You're not a fan of it. Why do you feel that way? Just because we don't do it. I wish I could. One, I literally am just not real smart when I multitask. My wife knows if I'm on the phone and I'm doing something,

she's like, can you put your phone down please? Cause I'll be like, yeah. And she knows I'm doing something else. Yeah. But the, the best way to determine if you're those people, if you're listening to this,

if you think you're a multitasker, try this. I want you to go, okay, go count to one to 10 and you can try this too. Like one to 10 as fast as you can. Okay. Right now.

Yeah. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven,

eight, nine, 10. All right. So now go a through J as fast as you can a b c d e f g h i j okay so those would be single task environments right and so now try to go one letter one number so a1 b2 b3 a1 b2 c3 d4 e5 f6 g7 h8 i9 j10 dude that's actually i've never seen anybody get F6, G7, H8, I9, J10. Dude, that's actually,

I've never seen anybody get all the way through. You know, you were probably 300% slower, but you got through. I'm actually kind of blown away. Most people go A1, B2, B3, C3, D4, E5. I don't remember what's next. Near the end it was tough. And I've done this, and I don't even know which one's next

so what happens is is we don't actually multitask we have we do what's called rapidly refocusing and so if it's a single task i go down numbers one two three four five six seventy nine ten letters one two three abcdefg hij but then if i go one stop that task pick up a new task a or a one. Okay, stop the one Where was it? Where did I leave off? Yeah be okay. Stop that task. Where did I leave on the look to? And then you're starting to stopping tasks. And yeah, it's the akin is basically how we run a lot of our day We start something somebody interrupts or we're doing something great We pick up our phone and we're constantly being interrupted and we very rarely get into the flow But if you look

at high performing people people that are making millions people that are that are making massive impact it's not just money people that are leading massive organizations they practice single task time they're very focused on what they're doing right and they manage interruptions research says that if you're in a flow state that that your interruption, if you're interrupted out of that, it takes on average 19 minutes to get back. Yeah. That's crazy. Yeah, 19 minutes. I'm not thinking how many times I'm interrupted.

That's something I need to work on because I have my phone with me when I work sometimes and it's just so distracting. And me that knows this, I'm still addicted to looking at it. I mean, if it's nearby me and I hear that buzz, I'm like, I want that dopamine, you know? And that's what it is. It's literally, it's dopamine.

And dopamine is that anticipation of reward, right? And so I go, I hear the buzz, who might that be? Well, let me go check. Dopamine's like, who might that be? And then you go get that and you get it. And all of a sudden, no, dopamine goes away. Yeah. That's crazy.

So what else have you noticed? Because you're around a lot of successful people. What other commonalities have you seen in them? There's a lot, actually. One, they manage who they spend their time with. They're very, very picky about who and how they spend their time. It's not that they're above anybody else. They just know that there's limited time.

And so we all have the same amount of time in the day. They just spend it real differently. And so they manage who they're around. And they also plan their time. You know somebody that the ultra rich will be planned two and three years out. And they know in two years they're going to be on this vacation. They're going to be on this boat. They're going to be at this conference.

Two years? Oh yeah, if not three. Wow. I thought one year was excessive, but two and three is. I'm talking about the uber successful. It's way, way out there. Wow. I thought one year was excessive, but two and three is. I'm talking about the uber successful. It's way, way out there. Wow. They plan three years out.

That's crazy. But do you like living a structured life like that where everything's kind of planned? So that's why I fought it because I thought that meant over structure. Right. And my mentor that taught me that, I said, I go, man, I go, because I couldn't even plan a month, two months out. And he's like, Rene, he goes, I go go what if i plan this out a year out and it changes and his answer i'll never forget he just looks at me he goes that's why you do it in pencil and i was like old school yeah i'm like okay all right that makes sense yeah i can change it you know what i mean i was like that too where i didn't want to schedule anything but now i've

kind of found a balance well look at you have to yeah you know and one thing i noticed about you i think i was very impressed like you and i when we had like a scheduling conflict and uh here i was like all the days run together i'm running running running and you responded he goes hey i typically don't work on sundays can we talk about this tomorrow and i was like i'm like this can't get to it protected his time right whatever it's family or whatever that personal time on sunday because if you're starting to grow you start to protect your time yeah yeah and the fact that you said hey it wasn't disrespectful and it was to me it dawned on me like oh it's sunday like and i actually felt bad i'm like but i also respected that i was like yeah problem and you got back to

me right there on monday and but it's it's that piece. It wasn't structured. It had boundaries. Yeah, that's something I'm pretty firm with. Because my first, I'd say, four years of business, I worked seven days a week, 15 to 18 hours a day. And my girlfriend had to deal with that. So now I'm at the point where I made some money. Let me give her some weekends. Let me give her some afternoons on the weekdays.

And that's smart. I mean, you're also replenishing yourself. You're replenishing your thinking. You're giving yourself time to wind down. And you've got to have time to process what happened and to recook up new ideas. And if you're never thinking and reflecting, it can downward spiral.

And we're kind of in this hustle culture too, like nonstop work. Yeah. And that's ego, man. And as somebody who works nonstop, it's not about telling everybody I work nonstop. I'm passionate about what I'm doing, but I also will find my time. If I'm tired, I'm going to just sit there for an hour, sit there for two hours. Or if we go somewhere and we're on vacation on vacation which isn't often i'm just gonna stop

yeah you know and what i've come to find out is the world doesn't fall apart in the day yeah and there's a certain point when you're working non-stop i noticed where it's actually hurting you yeah because like sometimes you need to get out of the house get some new perspectives go to a conference go to whatever and sometimes when you're just grinding all day it's not really beneficial it's the law of diminishing return, right? It's like that first jelly donut's good. Second one's, ah, it's okay. That third, you're like, oh.

That fourth, you're like about to lose it all. It's the same thing. And working too hard, it's an extreme approach to anything can be detrimental. But here's the thing. That doesn't mean you can't go on sprints, right? Because some people say that, you know,

well, you've got to have a balanced life. And I say, you know what? Balance gotta have a balanced life and i think you know what balance is bs and it's it's complete bs and they say well what do you mean i said well all right think about this and if you're watching this think of this for you too think of anything big you've done in your life did you do it balanced no no and that answer has never been you said it's tens of thousands of people that question i go how many people have done something big hands go up i go keep your hands up if you did it balanced and all the hands go down like i go so if you want to do big things it requires a some time of unbalance but then what happens is you achieve it and then you reprioritize and you give but also balance assumes i'm going to

take away from one thing to do from the other there's two other words that i like a lot better and i've spent 30 years with this discussion by the way i like the word integration meaning okay like you watch some people that are like they're always traveling but why do they put it why do they travel in a jet well their wife their family their kids can come and they homeschool so they're integrating that entire experience together right right and i look at that that's a sort of high level integration well i got to work out well i'm to say no to family time so I can work out. Or you work out as a family. It's like there's integrated there.

Me speaking 235 days, well, my wife is basically our CEO and she planned all of those days. So that to me isn't even integration. It is integration, but it's also harmony. She plays this tune, I play this tune. As long as we agree on the tune it makes a great song right right and then now we're going okay 235 a little bit too

much tune is out of sync all right so now we look at what we do all right we move let's look at maybe we move to arizona buy a house there nobody wants to come to minnesota yeah why'd you choose minnesota actually i didn't my mother in fact by the way i lost my mother a year and a half ago today's her birthday well today's her birthday so it's actually kind of a special special time but we moved to Arizona we buy the house of our dreams a place that people want to come to it's the typical sort of we can host our masterminds there we can host our high-level VIP events there we know start amplifies there and then I go home to my bed my kids are in the other room even in my

sessions my kids get the chance to meet CEOs and meet athletes meet celebrities and meet people like you and then like hey you know they know their name and they go off and play nice they're just surrounded by that so there's an integration and a harmony that could be created that way yeah i love that you're providing that outlook on your kids at such an early age yeah yeah which i think is part of the challenge too right it's providing too much of that right can can hurt too oh you think so well so you know i know like right now there's a there's a sentiment around some of the newer generations around their work ethic you don't you don't fit into that but there's a lot of people that you know well we got to be balanced we got to work and sort of just it's just not the same

work ethic or even just not the same approach to uh trial and error i tried that a couple times it didn't work right and so i'd said that in front of a group of people i said how many people a little bit frustrated with some of the generations they go hands up i said yeah no me too i go but who raised them like i raised my hand i got them and i raised my hand too and they're like they're like oh shoot and i go i go get it so we're frustrated but we also raised them. I go, but let me ask this question. How many of you grew up with a really hard childhood?

Hands go up. I said, how many of you said, I'm going to work so hard that I'll never put my kids through that? And they go, yeah. I go, that's where we messed up. Because if the formula was for our work ethic and our grit and our ability to persist was because we had it hard and we had to learn to overcome that

and now we're sheltering and taking those moments away from them yeah we're ruining it and so it's like okay so i came up with this like i have a 15 years ago 10 man let's go 10 years ago where i go okay with my kids i have to manufacture struggle for them meaning that if the struggle is the biggest lesson i gotta manufacture i told my son i said you know what i could write a check and solve this problem you're dealing with right now but you'll hate me because you'll be you'll feel like you're under me you'll know that i solved it and you didn't but let me tell you just push through this figure this out i'll be next to you phone call away we'll talk about it you can cry with me we'll do this together i go but i need you he goes no

dad i don't want you to do this let me figure this out i was like my man nice i love that and i agree with that so much because i grew up in a pretty wealthy neighborhood but my mom never gave me handouts but i saw it all around me like everyone got a car in high school their parents paid for it everyone got the iphone as soon as it came out but she definitely taught me some work ethic and discipline so i love that good for her man yeah she, man, because I could have ended up spoiled. She wasn't like a multimillionaire, but she worked her ass off. Well, she taught you that work ethic.

Yeah, that Asian work ethic, man. That's some of the best. Yeah. One of the things I like about you is you're really good at reading body language. What can you tell about a person from reading their body language? So that's a scary question. Here's why. So if you want to learn to read someone's mind you read someone's body but now

body language is a scary place because you can know a little bit enough to be dangerous and if body language reading becomes too uh you become too cocky with it it turns you into a jerk so i tell people i said body language should never lead to conclusion it should lead to curiosity right so somebody's sitting like this their arms crossed so there's one what we call q there's a cube my arms are crossed but body language comes in clusters of cues and also context matter where am i at and how many cues am i getting most people say that well i saw half half an episode of lie to me so i know you're you're right yeah and so here's one cue but the context might be it's cold in here right but there's another cue that i'm leaning forward i'm smiling right so this might mean other things it could mean that i'm scared i might i want to

hide my belly it could be mean that i'm just insecure just mean that i'm just my shoulders hurt i'm comfortable yeah but if I'm like this, you know, there's other cues that are happening. My voice changes and like, uh-huh. I give short answers, right? So there's all these cues. So you start reading the clusters, but if you let curiosity guide you, you'll ask questions.

I say, hey, how you feeling? And they go, oh, just cold in here, you know? And they smile at you and you go, okay, so you gathered more information. Right. But if they go fine why okay there's another there's a little more some more cues telling us okay something's there but then in that place that person that goes oh you're defensive if you jump to that it kind of makes

you a jerk but if you use it as curiosity you'll learn to to say well how can i make them feel more comfortable in that moment and then if my goal is to influence them to sell them or to persuade them or to connect then come what they're not comfortable there's no connection period interesting yeah i love that because i i see myself with my arms crossed sometimes and i've heard that that means you're kind of closed off it depends right it's it's one cue of many that usually have to come together yeah i don't even notice when i do it but usually it's just a comfort thing i feel like so the and it could be now there's a couple comfort thing, I feel like. And it could be. Now, there's a couple things you have to take into consideration,

and I get clipped on stuff like this out of context because one of our views went like 26 million views. I was talking about where you place your hands, and that's just one thing in many. And you have to ask yourself, okay, should people read you and judge you based on your body language? No, they shouldn't they shouldn't but do they yes so we can't deal in the shoulds and shouldn't so okay if i know that i'm being judged let's say i came on here and i'm like this the whole time right yeah you know and i'm sitting like this and hunched over people might read into that right so

i i want to send a certain message to people that I'm an authority in what I'm talking about, that I'm comfortable in what's happening, and so then I'm going to send that signal quietly with my body. If you're given a toast, you toast with your body first. If somebody says, give you a toast, you're like, sure, and all of a sudden you've told the whole audience you've never done this before, you're brand new at this, and if I'm in the room and I want to make a business decision with you,

I might have just decided, I don't know if I can trust you. And shoot, okay, that might. And then people are like, man, I can't never catch a break. Well, let's get rid of that low-hanging fruit and let's just get you standing with the right posture. And I always tell people, if you've got kids, I go, how would you stand if your kids were in the room? And you're like, okay, all of a sudden they stand up straight.

Why? Because they want their kids to do that. You always? And you're like, okay, all of a sudden they stand up straight. Why? Because they want their kids to do that. You always get the person that says, well, it doesn't matter. I'm like, I hear you. It shouldn't matter. But it does if you want to progress. That's true. If you're not interested in progressing, man, be comfortable.

It all depends on your goal. Yeah. So what's the proper body language when you're trying to show that you're confident other than the posture of standing straight? You know what's funny? I bet you anybody listening to this could answer that. I bet you you could answer. Stand up straight.

That's it? Right? Chest out. A little bit of a smile. Okay. Chin up. And then what we call the curtains, our eyes, our eyebrows, right? I'll close them.

Right? You see my closed curtains right here. Now I'll open them. Hey, how you doing? And close them. Try to smile with closed curtains. Hey, how you doing? This is weird. smile with closed curtains hey how you doing this is weird i look at that right but now it's like if i open them hey how you doing it's like it's like there's a there's an openness to that and so just think about opening yourself

up opening your hands posture up you know like um was it brandon marshall was in here earlier athletes are so good at this because they got to stand with that posture right one they lift weights that pulls their back forward and they got to show posture on that field so someone else is like coming at them they're going to show confidence and when an athlete transitions to to sport or to business and they carry that it's beautiful to watch you had an interesting take on your instagram about ceos you feel like they should be more open emotionally with their employees well so the the reality is around them open it's for a purpose right so i wrote an article for chief executive magazine on what i think with the underlying cause for the great resignation which is people that

want to leave their jobs 76 of people wanting to leave and i think that it was because the CEOs were not available and didn't lead. It was poor leadership. And what I mean by that is you had a value shift during the pandemic where people started valuing more connection and meaning at work. So if I value connection and I value meaning, and then two things happened. One is we got rid of connection. Everybody worked at home.

There's one. And then CEOs worked from home and forgot to communicate and probably didn't know how to communicate. So there was no communication of vision. There was no connection. There was no connection to the customer. So why am I working? There was no connection to the meaning.

Oh, I work so I achieve this. Oh, I see the meaning of this. It's the outcome. So I took those two away and a recruiter comes around and says, you know what, let me tell you about what we're doing. And they fill in that gap for them. That's what I call the narrative gap. And all of a sudden, man, you know,

I have no connection. I don't even know my leaders. Maybe this isn't the place for me. And so it's, but what happens is, if a CEO shares their story, I'll give you an example, real simple. Let's say we work for a company company and a CEO doesn't show up. One person says, okay, well, Johnny didn't show up again.

He's out probably getting another yacht. I don't know how many yachts he needs. That's one way to fill that gap in the narrative. Another person, same room, says, wait, hold on. Johnny didn't show up. Let me call and see if he's okay. Another way to fill the gap. And so what's happening in this,

the narrative is what we call a construct of reality. And so we construct our understanding of reality through story, the beginning, the middle, and the end. That's how we remember it. That's how we remember things. That's how it's categorized in our brain. But it's also how we understand it.

And if there's a gap, like if I were to just stop talking like that right did you feel a little cold like like what it happened there yeah and if you're listening like what would happen that's a gap in the narrative and so your brain immediately starts to fill it right and it starts to fill that gap right away and when it fills a gap you gotta ask yourself what is it filling it with hmm right and if it's filling it with and it doesn't have anything to fill it with it's gonna make an assumption based on its past experience so somebody who says okay john didn't show up

narrative gap created well i don't know why he didn't show up so let me go to my past experience which would be most leaders are greedy and so he must be greedy getting another yacht interesting right and so then now the one over here that said let me see if he's okay yeah he's going to fill the gap but let's say that she knows his story right and his daughter was sick maybe fighting an illness and he had to stay so instead of making an assumption from her past experience she chooses from his story wow which is more true to go hold on daughter might be sick filling the gap with that assumption yeah and so leaders that don't share their story they give nobody anything to fill the gaps with and there are constant gaps

happening and so it's not about we just need to be emotional for the sake of emotion we need to give people who we are so when there is no information we at least get the benefit of the doubt there's a lot more content yeah that's interesting it's all perspective get the benefit of the doubt. So there's a lot more content. Yeah, that's interesting. It's all perspective at the end of the day. Each person has their own experiences and they fill the gap. And what they forget is that we can guide perspective through our own story.

I can shift your perspective, which really means your perception, which really means your reality, just by sharing my story. Whoa, that's trippy. So you can change someone's reality? You can totally shift reality. So think about it, right?

If I were to say, all right, so what does your brain do when I say this? The man's glasses were filled with wine. Glasses filled with wine. It shows a glass bottle being poured with red wine. But what did you think when I said the man's glasses? What's the first thing you thought? Man's glasses. Thought of mine. Yeah, you thought glasses on your face. Yeah. And then I said filled red wine. But what did you think when I said the man's glasses? What's the first thing you thought? Man's glasses.

Thought of mine. Yeah, you thought glasses on your face. Yeah. And then I said filled with wine. So all I said was man's glasses. Your brain filled in all the rest. And then I gave you the rest and you go, wait a minute, rewind, recreate reality.

These were actually glasses that you fill wine with. The man's glasses, the assumptions begin, were filled with wine. and all of a sudden reverse recreate that's true yeah i thought of my glasses first and then as you kept going i thought of a glass cup it happens split second unconsciously and so if i say look i'll give you another example ask me to come to the party do you want to come to the party no why so how do you feel when i just said no uh kind of a jerk right yeah yeah so i'll add a little bit of what we call a frame to come to the party? No. Why? So how do you feel when I just said no? Kind of a jerk, right?

Yeah. So I'll add a little bit of what we call a frame to add to the narrative. Ask me to come to the party. Do you want to come to the party? Unfortunately, I can't. A little different, right? Unfortunately, I can't. Right. Right.

And so instead of just no, which creates no narrative, what we call no framing to it. Right. And so if I don't provide a frame to what i'm saying your brain is going to create one because a frame and a narrative is how we construct the understanding and the meaning of what's going on and so if i just give you none you're going to create your own yeah and some people assume the worst right most people well it's they end up assuming the worst but really what they're doing is they're assuming what best serves them to protect themselves right right and if they are insecure they're going to go down more of a

negative path but if you know my story let's say i'm in the middle of something and let's say i'm on a book tour or that you know my family's sick and you say you want to come to the party i'm like no and you go man i know he's not feeling good i know you're tired bro because you know the context right but if i give you no context you got to make it up and so i say the big risk to leaders to anybody in relationships is don't allow that context to be filled by someone else communicate it share it share your story give context frame up the situation and so then people go okay i understand what's going on and what's happening i love that a lot and that's really not taught because most ceos are taught to kind of be private with their personal affairs totally and to be short and concise and to the point yeah it just doesn't work so we need to shift the whole narrative almost we have to start

yeah shift the narrative we have to start providing a narrative yeah so think about the media media knows this science so they they see a gap in the narrative and they're going to go okay fill that gap because if we can be the one to fill the gap we in the narrative and they're going to go okay fill that gap because if we can be the one to fill the gap we control the reality and we control the tension and then we can get ad ad spent so does uh politics and so there's a gap and then it's okay who can provide the narrative is controlling the reality and so you see cnn and fox right or whoever and then you look at the economists or you look at the bbc or you look at American TV, they're all providing different narratives. Right. And they're trying to shift it towards, if there's a political sway, they're going to shift the narrative to go in that

direction, even with just a few words. Wow. It's crazy how they kind of control your mind almost. A hundred percent. But we do it too. Like your girlfriend, you, I do it. We do it not intentionally with bad malintent it's just how we communicate we're trying to constantly construct meaning to what we say usually towards what we feel is right and so if you're a certain political belief you probably think that's the right way to be and so you're doing what you think is best yeah right and the opposite is doing what they think is best right and so then then there's always the abuse of that Which is what we really got to be careful with and that's where the conversation matters

That's where you have a massive massive in input in this and influence on getting people to start thinking More than just being emotional. We're back to being yeah Right because if I can control a narrative to make you emotional Then I can make you irrational and I can make you make a rash decision and a quick one right in a negotiation way to do that is to say I need to know in the next two hours stress goes up and I better do that if that's ever happening to you that's just when you actually slow down and somebody did that with me once and they try to use that they said I need to know in the next two hours I said well if you're asking me to make an

irrational quick decision I think you wouldn't want me to make that if i worked for you you'd want me to be more thoughtful yeah and more strategic in that and so i'm going to take the approach that you would want me to take if i worked for you i'm going to need a day and all of a sudden they're like makes sense i love that and so now i control the narrative because i didn't allow i didn't allow the emotion to take over in that moment man that's powerful yeah because when they give you those quick deadlines you definitely feel kind of emotional and pressured by it totally and it's and it is a manipulation in that moment right it's a good you see people say well no that's just a good negotiating technique yeah you could it might be because

let's say i'm dealing with somebody who is constantly wishy-washy. In that sense, if I know that you're wishy-washy and I know that I've communicated the full story and then I know I need to move on, I'll say, guys, I'm going to need to do it in an hour. I'm going to move on. And that might be a real reason to use something like that. So it's not the use of something,

it's the abuse of it that makes it hard. And this guy by the name of T.S. Eliot had a great quote. He said, just because something's been abused does not neglect its use. And so just because somebody abuses negotiation tactics doesn't mean you can't use them. That's awesome. Rene, I've learned so much, man.

Is there anything you want to close off with or promote? Oh, man. Well, first, brother, this is fantastic. I've enjoyed the conversation. I forgot we were in a podcast. This is great. I mean, obviously, the book is something that's very very important to us i think you read it there um everything i talked about is in the book and uh we we outlined it we used what i use in the book to write the book and so it becomes a real easy read there's an audible

version of it too we have a free master class that we do obviously follow me on our instagram and tick tock it's learn with renee l-e-a-r-n we do a free video a day it's uh no pitch there's no nothing it's just educational stuff every single day love it man thanks so much for coming on i appreciate it thanks for watching guys and i'll see you next time