Digital Social Hour - Secrets of Winning Arguments Every Entrepreneur Should Know | Ryan Umina DSH #1290

Episode Date: April 2, 2025

Discover the secrets of winning arguments every entrepreneur should know and take your persuasion skills to the next level! 🚀 In this episode of the Digital Social Hour with Sean Kelly, we sit down with an accomplished trial lawyer turned entrepreneur, Ryan Umina who shares insider tips on mastering argumentation, understanding human psychology, and thriving in business. 🧠💼 From courtroom strategies like sticking to your version of the truth to the art of storytelling, this conversation is packed with valuable insights that can transform how you communicate and make decisions. You'll also hear inspiring stories of resilience, lessons from high-stakes trials, and how these skills translate to entrepreneurship. 🌟 Don't miss out on this eye-opening episode! Watch now and subscribe for more insider secrets. 📺 Hit that subscribe button and join the conversation for more fascinating stories and expert advice on the Digital Social Hour with Sean Kelly! 🎙️✨ CHAPTERS: 00:00 - Ryan's Intro 02:10 - Why Ryan Became a Lawyer 04:05 - Ryan's First Case 12:01 - Sexual Assault and Consent Awareness 14:16 - Decision-Making Based on Survival Instincts 19:03 - Toughest Case: Police Shooting Incident 25:56 - Reasons to Attend Law School 27:59 - Avoiding Untelling the Other Side's Story 30:48 - Transitioning from Lawyer to Entrepreneur 31:35 - Early Business Ventures and Lessons 32:43 - Starting a Successful Law Firm 33:50 - Creating Notarize: A Business Journey 36:10 - Valuable Lessons from Failure 39:20 - Starting Tax Firms: Key Insights 44:10 - How John Summit Started His Career 46:04 - Sean's Company: Over $100 Million in Refunds 49:41 - Qualifying for the SAT Program Explained 51:15 - Understanding ERTC.com Benefits 56:08 - Wrap Up and Key Takeaways APPLY TO BE ON THE PODCAST: https://www.digitalsocialhour.com/application BUSINESS INQUIRIES/SPONSORS: [e-mail] GUEST: Ryan Umina  https://www.instagram.com/ryanumina SPONSORS: AIRES TECH:  https://airestech.com/ LISTEN ON: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/digital-social-hour/id1676846015 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5Jn7LXarRlI8Hc0GtTn759 Sean Kelly Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmikekelly/ Digital Social Hour works with participants in sponsored media and stays compliant with Federal Communications Commission (FCC) regulations regarding sponsored media. #ad  #audienceengagement #businessdevelopment #communicationskills #leadershipskills #persuasivespeaking

What you're doing, okay, I'll teach a little something that's about argumentation. Never try and untell the other side story. You stick to your version of the truth. They tell their version of the truth. When you start trying to untell their version, they got you. That's when you lose. You're definitely going to lose because now they're just, you're playing their game. playing their game. All right guys, got Ryan from SCTC Pros, first guest from West Virginia represent.

Yeah, big shout out to West Virginia. Let's go. Yeah, yeah, went to law school out there. It's an interesting place, you know, it gets a little bad of a rap sometimes, you know, nationally, but it's an absolutely stunning place. And they're actually doing a lot right now. A lot of manufacturing jobs going in there, big businesses, Berkshire Hathaway, one of

their companies, putting a big manufacturing plant down there. And then people don't realize there's all sorts of, you know, interesting people that come from there. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Little place I grew up. So I grew up just south of where like West Virginia University is.

It's like the next little county down, like 15 minutes away. And you're talking that whole county, the county has 60,000 people. And people like Nick Sabans from there, Wow. Mary Lou Retens from there, Senator Manchin who, you

know, a couple of years ago was probably the most powerful Senator in the Senate. I don't know when he was the tiebreaker. He's from there. Starting center for the Pittsburgh Steelers, Zach Frazier is from there. Dante Still is starting defensive tackle for the Arizona Cardinals. They played at an 800 kid high school in West Virginia on the same team. And they're, you know, two of the 700 starters in the NFL. It's an odd little place, man. It's cool. A lot, a lot of great, great folks from there.

Yeah. Quality over quantity is what they say. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's always nice. You know, I love getting out here, you know, in these larger stages and, you know, chatting with people and represent for all those guys back home. Yeah. What made you want to become a lawyer and what type of law do you practice? Yeah. So, you know, path to becoming a lawyer, you know, I finished undergrad a little bit later in life.

I was like 25. And so I had some time to, you know, think about what am I actually good at? You know, I spent, I guess, spent a summer in like hospitality management and things like that. I was like, maybe I'll just work at a resort. And I was always pretty good at public speaking and,

you know, liked some academic exercises. And, you know, one of the things about becoming a warrior that I would tell anyone who's thinking about it, you have to really practice, even if you can speak well, reading, writing, and then like philosophical logic, right? You need to understand true logic. And so like I minored in philosophy and really appreciated the academic exercise of that. And so, you know, when I went to law school, I was just very focused on being a trial lawyer.

It's just what called me and people would say, what is a trial lawyer? I tell people, it's like, you ever see a show, you know, the practice or some of these other, you know, lawyer shows. Suits. Yeah, yeah. And with the exception of maybe some of the corporate stuff they do in suits,

um, which we, you know, we handle some of that stuff. Uh, I do a wide range of things. I try, I've tried a lot, a lot of cases, um, for some of my age, but I've tried, you know, so many criminal cases. Uh, we've handled stuff in the, you know, civil rights arena, a criminal cases, uh, we've handled stuff in the civil rights arena, a lot of, uh, uh, kind of catastrophic injury, wrongful death, people being wrongfully killed, um, and then, you know, our practice probably 20 ish percent. Um, we do a lot of business, uh, business work, you know, uh, medium size and,

you know, large, small businesses. Uh, we do a lot of work for them. More sense. What was the first case? Was it a win? Yeah. So I had a great run in, uh, in trials early on. Yeah.

Right. Um, uh, you know, I was at a point, uh, and again, I worked, they tell you in law school, like, you're not going to see the inside of a courtroom for 10 years, seven years, and I just, I just chose not to believe that. And, uh, I, so I was on like competitive, uh, get a trial for them and they were like traveling trial competition teams, um, every semester starting my second year, so, so four separate teams and, and, you know, one, the schools like trial competition.

So, I mean, I really worked at getting good at it. I would set up a computer, I'd go up to the law school on like a Saturday and set up my computer in the jury box and sit there and be all by myself. Wow. Practicing and watching and critiquing myself. Yeah, you know how to, I mean,

you watching yourself on camera, sometimes it can be so painful. It's all uncomfortable. Hearing my voice, it's So uncomfortable hearing my voice. It's like, Oh my God. Yeah. And, uh, but you know, that's how you, that's how you learn. And so first, uh, first, uh, case all by myself was the first two before that.

So very first case, um, pretty heavily publicized, but I was more, you know, second chair just really did like the work of it. I was fortunate when I started out out of practice now, but I was more, you know, second chair just really did like the work of it. I was fortunate when I started out in a practice now, but I ended up, um, you know, I did big law my first summer and then I was like, I don't, I don't really think that's my speed. Worked under a big company. Yeah. I worked for like a one of my first summer was with one of the largest law firm in the country, a huge, I mean, they've merged since then about a thousand lawyers like that giant, giant firm. Yeah. And, uh, which, you know, love those guys.

And I have a lot of friends that work in that environment, but, uh, it just wasn't for me. I wanted to be, you know, in court. So, uh, I had an awesome, uh, mentor of sorts who was a judge at the time. He still is a judge. He's a federal judge now, but he let me come and just kind of tag along for the summer, you know, and really, you know, taught, you know, you walk into the courtroom and he's like, all right, here's what really just happened, right? Here's what's really, here's what they're really saying, right? Interesting. Yeah, it was invaluable. And then I went to work at a smaller firm, but they were very well established. So we had some significant cases.

So first trial ever, it was a really hot button issue. It was right on the heels, if you recall the Brock Turner case, the Stanford swimmer, right? And so the allegation was that our client at a party sexually assaulted a girl. Yeah. And not that she didn't consent, but that she was too intoxicated to consent, right? And of course you hear that and it's like, oh my gosh. And this, the allegations alone nearly ruined the kid's life. But he, you

know, kicked out of school. Damn. We all, yeah, kicked out of school. I mean, and it was picked up nationally, the story was. Yeah, this was peak Me Too movement, right? Oh yeah, yeah. And so you're talking, the AP picked it up. It was coast to coast news. And, you know, when I got into it,

I started realizing and kind of uncovering. So the witnesses are the girl, and then she went to this party with her friend. And the, you know, our client, this was her ex boyfriend. And what ended up coming out, you know, you watch the interviews that they went and gave to the police and they give one version of events and they say one thing about how much they've drank. And

you say, and then when they're in the student conduct hearing, now they're telling a completely different version of events. But then what the saving grace for this young man was there were cameras all over this. It was a fraternity house. And this, it's not like the stereotype that you would think of. This gentleman does not look like that. Not the ditty cameras? No, and he was a really, really good young man.

And that group of guys, they were a good group. They actually got that house only because a rowdier attorney got kicked off campus. So they got to move into this new house, but cameras everywhere. And it was very clear that what happened was the girl ditched her friend at the party to go hook up with her ex-boyfriend and left her dish at the party. And then when they're leaving, her friend's yelling at her for ditching her at the party. And she's like, leave me alone, I think I just got raped. And then her friend really starts pushing this narrative.

Well, what we came to find out and uncover, they try to tell a story that she goes up to the room and beats on the door and they come to the door and she's trying to pull her out of the room and he's pulling door and they come to the door and she's trying to pull her out of the room and he's pulling her back and slams the door. This is a story that he tells. You watch the videotape, she comes to the door, she has a conversation, she says goodbye and leaves.

You know where to be found. Wow. And then the alleged victim attempted to say that, you know, because they're saying like, you're so drunk. He didn't forcibly do it. You're so drunk though. Um, you can't give consent. And they're like, what, they're like, what happened after?

Like when she's talking to police, he kicked me out of the room and I'm carrying my clothes down the hallway, naked to the bathroom, crying, lo and behold, on the video, they walk out of the room. They're holding hands. She's fully clothed. They go into the bathroom. She realizes she forgot an earring. He goes back, gets her earring for her that she forgot because you remember that if you were so, you know incoherent that

you know and takes her takes that back to her and Holds her hand walks her down the stairs didn't need her Never thought about how much EMF and radiation your body is exposed to every single day? From smartphones to Wi-Fi, modern technology never stops emitting invisible stressors that could disrupt brain function, hormone balance, and cellular health. That's where ARIES comes in, the only scientifically validated solution designed to help your body adapt to today's technology. It's trusted by elite athletes used by the UFC, WWE, Canada basketball, and the Minnesota Timberwolves. It's backed by science, 100 plus scientists, and 40 plus institutions confirm its effectiveness.

It's patented, peer-reviewed, clinically proven, and publicly traded Wi-Fi is the most tested, researched, and validated EMF solution on the market. Upgrade your biology to keep up with modern technology. Protect yourself with Aries today. Click the link below to learn more. She didn't hold her hand. She freely kind of bounced down the stairs and goes to her friend. And then when you see she engages the friend, the friend is angry, right?

And it's, you know, and then, and then, um, you know, what we kind of later found out is it sounds like, um, it may be, they may be, maybe weren't just friends, the two gals at the party together. Right. So she didn't want to tell her, Hey, I bounced on you to go hook up with my boyfriend, you know, da da da da da. And it turned into police went and pulled this kid out of his bed at four o'clock in the morning, interrogated him all night, arrested him, charged him. Um, he had to stay in trial. He was kicked out of school.

That's crazy. You know, they're just, their inconsistencies were so much. Um, you know, we had a, the foreperson was a retired, uh, uh, you know, female school teacher, um, not guilty, you know, it gave the kids like back. So that's not, did he get back into school? Did they let him? He transferred. He transferred.

That's what, that's what happens. And I mean, in a college town, you know, obviously, uh, that topic, right. And it's been talked about a lot lately, sexual assault and consent and all of these things. And that topic is a very sensitive issue, man. But I would tell you, I have seen, and it's scary. I've seen a couple incidents now where here's how it always happens. I've probably seen three cases like this, right? Here's how it always happens.

A young lady goes out and she has a fucking up with some dude and she has some sort of significant other that is not that dude and Then she says well, I didn't want to or something like that. Yeah, and then significant other says well then that's you know, you've been sexually assaulted and we need to do something about it. And, uh, that's a scary thing, man. I have two sons. Um, and I've seen it firsthand. We've defended them. Um, and, uh, you know, very hard to win because of the nature of the allegation. And fortunately the ones that we were involved with, we did, but, but, you know,

we had truly innocent clients. And fortunately the ones that we were involved with, we did, but you know, we had truly innocent clients. That's the scariest. That's scary, man. Scariest thing you can do. I mean, it doesn't matter. You know, you try cases for money, you try cases for someone's freedom. I don't care how much money it is, dude.

Nothing is live is when you wake up and you're driving to a courthouse. And if you don't win, this person's getting years or life, you know? And typically if you're going to trial, it's like there's big years on the table, you know, plus 10. So yeah, it's- There's a lot online. Yeah, it gets you out of bed differently.

In the morning, you know? You're still a human. It's like, you know, even to now, it's, you know, we've done dozens of trials now and, uh, probably over 20, uh, jury trials. I might say we, my, uh, my wife and I practiced together. So yeah, we've, we tried many, many cases, uh, together. She's excellent.

And, uh, you know, so you still, it's like, you look at yourself in the mirror and you put your suit on and, you know, the jury walks in and it's like, you know, counsel, you may give your opening, you know, argument and it's, it's live, dude. You guys stand up, go look a jury in the eyes and deliver. It's, it's an art man. It's a fun game to play. Yeah. A lot of psychology. Tons of psychology. I would say I learned the most about psychology as really studying the craft of being a trial attorney. Because you study everything and you learn, you know, one of the most significant things. People don't make decisions for the reasons that they think that they make decisions.

People make decisions based on their previously held beliefs. And then they're just trying to fit logic into that previously held belief and then they justify it. But by the time they're hearing the rationale for their decision, they're justified. Wow. So they make their decision early on then. And for reasons that they don't realize. For reasons that they don't realize. Wow. For reasons that they don't realize.

The primary reason that people make decisions are survival or the appearance of danger. Right. And so are you familiar with Maazal's hierarchy of needs? Heard of it. Yeah. So it's like a triangle on the bottom is like, you know, survival, scarce, you know, what your basic needs and at the very top is self-actualization and there's, you know, these different levels. And basically if the need below isn't met, you can never get to like self-actualization. And where a lot of messaging for a look for different things, you know, politics, we see this a lot. It's, it's, they're trying to keep you in the survival state because if you can get

someone afraid, if you can grab on to fear, then you have them. Right. The egg prices in politics, they got a lot of people not one. The gas prices. All of it. Yeah. And that's why, you know, it's unfortunate that that's the manner in which, that's why politics feels so negative. Right? Could you imagine if, if they didn't have to do that? It's just so powerful. If they don't do it, the other side is going to do it. Right.

And if you can put someone in a fear state and get their mind into a survival state and make them believe that them and their DNA, right? Them and theirs are in some sort of danger or will lack some sort of resources. You got them. You got them. Yeah. And that's what it all really comes down to. So, you know, the people will intentionally create fear. That's why it's so hard. Certain criminal cases are hard because if that person sitting next to you

seems like they would be a danger at all to the community, they won't even really care to hear the evidence. That person is a threat. Yeah. And then they have confirmation bias. So you really want to try and get a jury. It's nice when you can talk first. Yeah, that's a good point. So I'd imagine the conviction rate on criminal cases is higher than. Yes. Yeah. Overall, overall. Yeah. And, you know, especially in the federal system that, you know, people go to trial in the federal system. 95% or something.

Crush it. Crazy. Yeah. They have immense talent. It's not even so much the resources. Yeah, the federal government has a lot of resources, but they just get very talented, thorough attorneys. Being an AUSA is a pretty prestigious post to hold.

AUSA? Assistant U.S. Attorney. Oh, okay. So you have the U.S. Attorney's Office for like every district. Federal courts are broken down, you know, on the trial court level. You have a bunch of districts in different states, and then each district

might have multiple courthouses. And just kind of divided up. So that's the kind of the trial court level. So you have a US attorney for, you know, you have the attorney general. And then they have a specific US S attorney for every federal district that runs it. Like a very famous one is, uh, Southern district of New York, Southern district of New York. Uh, the U S attorney there is a very, very, very prestigious post because

of the litigation that happens, um, in that district. Right. And then everyone that works under them is an AUSA. Got it. Yeah, that's what they're called. Yeah, they're lethal. Yeah, they're smart cookies, right? They're smart, they're really, really smart. And then, you know, a lot of them go on to larger firms

or maybe into teaching or different things like that. Yeah, what was your toughest case? Was it a criminal case? Yeah. Yeah. I, well, toughest, toughest case I've ever had. No, it was actually a civil rights case. And it was like first, first kind of case

that someone just brought in like to me. And it was a, it was a shooting, a police shooting and he had run, right? And you know, they try to say he was basically being a threat with the vehicle and they shot him. He was unarmed, right? And you know, factually, right? Factually, yes? Factually.

Yes, that it was likely a bad shooting. If you really looked at physical evidence at the scene, because basically he had run and he ran out through the country and then they were already shooting at him, which they had no right to shoot at him. So he got pulled over and was on foot running? No, he was running in a car. And then they cornered him up at a, um, well pad, right. And the big critical piece of evidence in this was this. He's in a Jeep. It's a stick shift Jeep, right. And they attempted to say he was coming at them, right?

And coming at them and shoot him. So if that is true, then yeah, he could have absolutely shot him. However, they had pulled the body out of the Jeep and everything. And it was noted in the report that when they came, the Jeep is still running. Well, a stick shift cannot run in gear.

Wow. A stick shift must be in neutral to continue to run with no one in the car. Which means unless he somehow in his last dying moment, shift the car into neutral, he couldn't have been trying to run anywhere because he was like backed up into the weeds. It was like a dead end. And, uh, and they, you know, and then they shot him and then, um, you know, killed him, it was horrific. And, you know, they made a pretty substantial offer to settle that case.

And, you know, family just had a different, uh, number of mine learned a lot about client management and that. I mean, it was a significant offer. And, uh, you know, you're getting a trial and you're doing great. And you know, then people say things, you know, like your own witnesses that don't reflect well. And then they're not even looking at the evidence. They don't care. Once they decide they don't like this person, and I don't think they're doing it consciously,

it's just confirmation bias. Right. You know, once they decide, no, I kind of feel this way instead, they will, and this is what people do, they will subconsciously diminish evidence that goes against what they're already thinking. And they will amplify evidence that they, you know,

supports what they're thinking. Yeah, I see that in debates all the time. They'll just completely disregard the other party's statement. that they, you know, uh, support what they're thinking. Yeah. I see that in debates all the time. They'll just completely disregard the other party statement. Yeah. Yeah. And because of those things, confirmation bias and cognitive dissonance, people will just like, you could take two geniuses

and let's say they want to argue about politics, right? Two astrophysicists, you know, super smart dudes, um, on very opposite ends of the spectrum, would they, every argument that they make to each other that they think is good and logical will actually just reinforce the other ones previously held beliefs. It actually just makes it worse. Yeah. Yeah.

The in persuasion. So here I'll give you a little free tip. Okay. Okay. In persuasion, the easiest thing to do is to get someone to agree with you about something that they already agree with. Right? So you can take a premise that you believe that they're already going to agree with. Right. And, and we do this in jury selection, right?

You want to take like underlying themes of your case. Right. And you know, uh, we had a case once, um, it was a business case, insurance, uh, company breakup, right? And, uh, the one insurance company or the, the agents they were going off and starting their own, their own thing. And all they, all they, they hadn't contacted anyone, they hadn't done anything. All they had done was get in touch with the actual insurance companies to sell the lines.

So travelers, farmers, all that, they have to be set up with them to sell their insurance. So that was as far as the conversation that they've had. And for them, it's like, well, why did they do that? It's like, well, they're not even going to think about quitting or leaving or doing their own thing if they can't actually sell anything. Right. So we came up with a theme of, uh, or not a theme, but in jury selection, we asked, um, raise your hand.

If you've ever heard, don't quit one job until you have another every single smart yeah, every single hand goes up and They We got through like openings, you know the first day and we get there the next morning and we've been trying to you know We basically proposed in the beginning You know, and this was at the time I. And we had been trying to, we basically proposed in the beginning, and this was at the time I was the junior attorney on this case, but I was still working

for the guys I started with. So great mentors. So from the beginning, they were just like, hey, listen, we'll leave, you leave, we'll take what's ours, you take what's yours, and we're not exchanging any money, like see you later. Like we just want to be free. And so we walk in the second day of trial

and you know, that's how we ended up resolving the case. Jury goes home, right? So it's resolved, we're not paying anything because they were suing us in that case, yeah. And so we walk out, me and the, you know, the partner I'm working for. And we hit the sidewalk and one of the jurors comes up and she's like, she's like, why'd you guys settle? And we're like, well, we didn't, we didn't have to pay anything.

And you know, we just put it behind. She goes, she goes, they didn't have anything on you. She goes, everybody knows you don't quit one job till you have another. And yeah, man. So, so those, those little kind of, uh, you know, when people ask me stuff like this, like when you see someone speaking publicly or speaking like that, right. It all looks very seamless, but it's tools in a tool belt.

It's a polished craft and, uh, and that's what makes it look so seamless. Right. Right. Um, and you can just grab all these little things from your tool belt, but, but the, the, the things that you learn along the way and getting those skills, they are so unbelievably transferable to, especially like business. I mean, life and understanding people, but, you know, shifting into entrepreneurship and such. I was just telling someone yesterday, you know, if there's a young, younger person or

I don't even know what young means, right? Relative, right? Yeah. So someone that's like unsure and never thought about it, like people thinking about going to law school, like I would highly, highly recommend it. Someone's thinking about going to law school, even if they want to be an entrepreneur, they want to do their own thing, especially if they want to work for themselves. Put in the work, like do the time,

and get really good at it. And then go, go just, you know, you don't have to go do a whole career and go be a public defender for three years. Go put in some, some time in the trenches and it'll build humility. It'll build a lot of things, but you know, go to trial. And that exercise, I always of things, but you know, go to trial and that exercise

I always joke like, you know, if I do really really well in my like grandkids trust I'm gonna put this in there. They're gonna have to go to law school Try three cases for an indigent person and win. I love it. And then you get your trust. That's cool. Yeah and The reason for that is, I mean, you develop public speaking skills. You understand persuasion. You're cool under pressure. At least you eventually get there.

Right. And you're just so much more effective. And then not to mention, I mean, you pass the bar, you have a pretty good understanding of most of what you need to know on the things that people have to pay lawyers need to know on the, the things that people have to pay lawyers for to do in business, which once you start really going in any business, especially if there's anything with compliance regulatory,

that's sometimes your greatest costs. It's good to know. Yeah. Legal, legal is a big cost for a lot of business owners. Massive costs. So I mean, you can shortcut so much of that. Like, I mean, we still use outside counsel, of course, and we still do yeah like that But I mean we're able to save tremendous amounts of money Yeah, cuz most businesses allocate, you know, 10 to 30 percent of their their revenue right to legal depends on the industry Yeah, yeah, and yeah, we're able to shortcut so much of that. I mean super super grateful

So yeah, I mean, it's you know, okay, so many dedicate five years of your life to that plus They do get out in the business world. I mean, I think you just get a lot more respect You know what? I mean the rooms that you go in on a person take it much more seriously It doesn't matter how old someone is, you know, I mean lawyers are respected. Yeah a lot of jokes, but When you actually get there, you know to your face you generally yeah. Yeah. Yeah jokes are fine No, this is fascinating because basically you're telling me if you're convincing if you're persuasive you could beat facts in a courtroom it's pretty mind-blowing. Yeah. That's really interesting to me. It's it's all you're doing okay and I'll teach a little something else about argumentation never try and untell the other side story you stick to your version of the truth.

They tell their version of the truth. When you start trying to untell their version, they gotcha. That's when you lose. You're definitely going to lose because now they're just, you're playing their game. Now you do see that, you know, in, you know, politics as well. Some politicians are a lot better at that. There'll be all this noise and all this, they don't even, they're not even gonna respond to it.

They're just gonna keep telling their version of it. Right? Because it just makes you, I don't wanna say it makes you look weak, but for your argument's sake it is. All a trial is, okay? I really studied and I've given some talks on like the history of the jury trial, right?

And it's, it's fascinating. You know, you starts back in like Germanic tribes, like eight hundreds and the folk, the people, and you know, somebody has an issue, you know, farmer bill took my pig and, uh, you know, rest of the tribe, what's up with that bill? And they would just, it would be like a jury. They'd tell their side of the story. You tell your side of the story and then the folk, the people decide. And then that evolved through England and you ended up with, uh, like, uh,

nights would sit on the court. That's where you get the 12 person. There would be 12 nights, um, that would sit on the court. That's where you get the 12 person. There would be 12 nights that would sit on those courts. And then it continued to evolve. And then, you know, we took England's, the basis of England's legal system. But at the end of the day, all you're doing, these are conflicts between typically friends, people, or the government and the person, excuse me.

And all you're doing is you're going to get some strangers from the neighborhood. You're going to tell your side of the story. They're going to tell their side of the story. The judge is going to be the referee. And that's that. That's it. That's at its most basic sense. It seems much more complex than that.

And for me, it helps to simplify it like that. Yeah, that makes sense. When was the transition from trial lawyer to entrepreneurship? When did that start? So it was, it was ongoing, you know, and something else I want to say like I'm, you know, I finished law school. I was 30. I started law school at 27. And, I was 30, I started law school at 27. And I've been out about nine years now. And I started, when I first started, I was working for people. And started little things.

I always knew, wanted to get into business. I didn't know how big or anything like that. And I had a pretty limited understanding of kind of like the world that I'm in right now. I'm rapidly like seeing like big business and how it works and just the people that I'm meeting and the friends and just these other projects that are coming to us. But started off first thing, me and my other friend

back in West Virginia, Sharag Desai, he's up in Morgantown, excellent attorney. We're both sitting there, had a little bit of money and we started a commercial cleaning company with a sweat equity partner. Put like most of the janitorial equipment on, I mean, we had like $15,000 between us. Like we just graduated, just started working.

And yeah, put up a little bit of cash, put a bunch of stuff on my Overstock credit card. You can get a ton of commercial cleaning stuff on Overstock surprisingly. And yeah, we started that. You know, you do banks and businesses and things and buy a little rental property and things like that. And a couple other small businesses.

And then beginning of COVID took my first big swing, attempting to respond to the market. And I guess opening my own law firm, so that was 2019. You know, I didn't think of it as entrepreneurship at the time as much. I just wanted to control my own life and destiny. And so 2020, so my first year had a monster first year. It was crazy. Really, with the law firm? Yeah, like seven figure years. So 2020, so my first year had a monster first year.

It was crazy. Really? With the law firm? Yeah, like seven figure. Damn. Yeah, that's what I said. And there's a lot of overhead with law firms too. And a lot of. Yeah, there's, I mean, there's a lot to it, right?

And the cost and everything, but there's a lot of ways to skin a cat, right? You can do, you know, profit sharing and things of that nature. But I mean, we just, we just, I don't want to say, I didn't even say unfortunately got some big cases because, you know, typically big injury and death cases are like somebody lost something, right?

Maybe a life. And you don't even, um, I don't know, you know, it's like, it's, it's, it's a weird thing to experience because it's like, great. You, you, you've got a really good result for this family and you, you, you helped them and you got them a large sum of money. Like, that's great. Um, but somebody gave something up, right? But, but yeah, it's a skill that is, you know, well paid, um, it has environments and, uh, so I had a big year and then kind of just grew too fast, right? I mean, hurry it up and hire a bunch of people.

And this is like January, February of 2020. Oh, COVID, right? Yeah. And, uh, so I was getting a bunch of calls and they're like, listen, they're like, everyone needs Will's power of attorney, medical power of attorney. Nobody could get them. And then I noticed that they rapidly started changing the notary laws in, uh, every state said for the first time in history for these documents, right?

You used to be able to, a couple of states at the time, you could e-sign, a notary could e-sign on like some real estate transactions, like Florida had a law in Texas, but now they really started changing it. And that was the only way that you could get people in nursing homes and hospitals and these things. These documents, which the people who felt most at risk were like, you'd be surprised how many people don't have their affairs in order. And then now everyone's in quarantine,

the people who are most high risk, you definitely can't go see, and you definitely can't take a notary and witnesses in there and lawyers. So create a solution for that. But I was very green and that size, trying to launch something nationally and respond to it. But I had a lot of cash, so I put up a lot of capital and, you know,

tough lessons in entrepreneurship, right? I had some, I think one of the toughest things in a lot of entrepreneurial endeavors nowadays, because you necessarily have a tech component, is if you don't have actual talent in your tech space space that can actually do what they say when they say they're Going to do it. You're in big trouble and I'm telling you anyone listening If you're an entrepreneur any that I don't care if they're your friend your brother if they cannot deliver on the tech They got to go these days. Yeah, that's important. You're screwed. Your whole business is gone You know what?

I mean anything is gonna be have have a backend driven on tech. And if it can't move rapidly and quickly and you can't go to those people with problems and they not have an ego about it and be personally offended when, you know, they didn't get an A++ on the first time, they have to go. And that didn't used to be how it was, man. I was so overly nice.

That was my biggest problem in business. You know, I still struggle with like disappointing people and things of that nature, but in any event, you know, with that I learned, you know, I had to shut it down. Just, I had, you know, was paying way too many people. I should have just done it a lot leaner in hindsight, right? But that gave me the foundation for, you know, kind of the business that I've been focused on now

since 23 in the tax credit space. I mean, I learned all about branding and I understood what pitfalls to look for. I understood all of those things. So that's something else if anyone, you know, especially the young entrepreneurs or heck, even the older ones, right? You know, there was a time where I thought certain failures

that I had were absolutely catastrophic and I was the biggest idiot in the world. And you know, on and on in any other negative thing, you can feel about yourself. And especially when, you know, you had just made more money and then you just lost more money than you could have ever imagined you would lose. You know, in the blink of an eye. And because you're going for it. You know, go for it. You got to go for it.

You got to live. Yeah. So many people, you know, they're afraid of experiencing that moment. And as someone who survived that moment, it's horrible. Don't get me wrong. Very painful. But who you come out at on the other side is absolutely fantastic. And you will come to welcome that and you will come to be grateful for that.

And you would not change a second about your life and all of that pain if you're doing it right. Yeah, I agree. It's happened to me and it was needed and I grew much better from it. Yeah, and I think once you get to that relationship, right, just kind of with life, and I was probably a, I don't know how many other people do, right?

But I was probably late to the game because I was so focused on school and law school. I didn't spend a lot of time on personal development until kind of after that, when I, you know, you get to this place and I'm doing, you know, surface level well, got a couple of little things going for me, I'm overall doing well, early 30s, had won some cases, I'd proven to myself,

I am a good lawyer, I'd proven to myself other things, I was financially well off enough. And then you realize, oh wow, this thing that you're chasing doesn't make you happy after all. And it really just comes down to thought patterns. What do you believe about yourself? What do you believe about the world around you?

What do you believe about where you can go in life and what you can do? I think most depression in life is people are just stuck. They're stuck in a job. depression in life is, um, people are just stuck. They're stuck in a job. They're stuck in a relationship. Um, they're stuck in some sort of situation, right? And, uh, and then they have told themselves they either they're not consciously aware of it, or they've justified why to stay stuck rather

than move forward. They think whatever the pain is on the other side of getting themselves unstuck is too scary. And then some people will live their whole lives there. A hundred percent. Whole lives. And so this entrepreneurial journey, man, when it came up, I learned about, you know, kind of the business that I'm in. I had never heard about like the tax credit space.

And, you know, I hired all those people right when COVID started and did not lay anyone off. And so I was eligible for some, I met an insurance broker one day and they're like, have you heard of the, you know, employee retention credit? And I'm like, no, what's that? And they tell me, and of course, you know, I'm like the poster child for that. Yeah.

You were burning money during the pandemic. Yeah, I was a poster child for all that stuff. I was trying, you know, I mean, I was trying to get it going for everybody. And I was trying to keep people employed. It was really, really important to me. And so, you know, as a, I consider myself a fairly sophisticated consumer. And they tell me, you know, the fee structure and all of that. They're like, Hey, let it, doesn't cost anything. Let us see if we can get it for you.

And if we get it for you, it was 20% when you get it and you're gonna get a bunch of interest. That's gonna be like 15 to 20% on top of this number. I'm a lawyer that works on percentages all the time. And that was a much lower number than I'm used to seeing. So I was like, great. And I understand the value of having a specialist. I can't tell you how many cases that come to me,

medical malpractice for instance, right? I have a person that is what he does and I just send them his way. And sometimes we'll work on them together and everything like that. And I liked, and I did early in my career, just like work with specialists a lot. Like, so if I got a really significant case

in a particular area, I'd go find the best person and just split the case with me. Makes sense. Yeah. So, you know, going back to that, understood the value in it. And I said, man, I'm pretty entrepreneurial. Like if anything like this comes up, give me a call. And then he calls me back a couple of weeks later

and tells me about, you know, there are the credits for sick and family leave for self-employed people. Some people call for sick and family leave for self-employed people. Some people call it the SETC, self-employed tax credit. That's a nickname, you know, industry term. They're the credits for sick and family leave. And they're from the same legislation that the ERC came from, right?

And all these other programs, right? There was the EIDL loans, the PPP. And you know, what people saw, PPP was for businesses who kept people employed. ERC is for businesses who kept people employed. EIDL was for businesses that had certain other markers. So these credits, initially, employers could even claim them for their W-2 employees if they had to miss work. So what they ended up doing when they expanded it, they opened it to self-employed people,

which self-employed is a very, very broad term. Okay. It is anyone who is 1099. So someone could have a normal W2 gig. And then if they're also a 1099 contractor, and so like, let's say someone's a DJ. Yeah. Right. And I don't know, maybe they're a count by day,

DJ by night, right? I think John Summit was actually that for a while. Yeah. I think he was actually an accountant. He was a Illinois guy, University of Illinois. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, uh, actual fact, right. Guys, an accountant during the day, DJ by night. Well, if during that time period he couldn't go DJ because clubs are closed because of this, he can still claim this credit for that income, right? And you can use the basis, either the greater self-employment income that you had in 20 or in 2021, whichever is greater, but it's for 2021. And there's two categories.

There are sick leave credits, which that is anything under the COVID sun, right? Everyone got COVID. Everyone got COVID. And if the business had to be shut down, if you had to quarantine, I mean, government shutdowns, on and on and on and on and on. Up to $511 a day.

And for 2021, there's 20 total days, shutdowns on and on and on and on and on up to $511 a day. And for 2021, there's 20 total days, 10 in the first quarter. So January, February, March, and then 10 in the second two quarters combined. Nice. And yeah, so that's up to five 11 a day. And then the family leave credit, that is up to $200 a day.

And there it's a, it's 50 and 60 days. So it's actually 110 days at 200 days. So, so, you know, it's up to like 20, some thousand in value just on those. Yeah. And no one knew about no one, no one knew about it. And I'm a legitimately self-employed person, right? Have been for like six years. I have no W-2 income. It's like, if I don't generate it, yeah, I mean, fully self-employed.

And I understand, you know, some days you get, you know, massive checks, like comparatively, right? You know, once business starts going, like it looks like a big check, but like you got expenses. So, you know, the value of money changes rapidly. Very quickly. Yeah, especially as you grow.

So, but like, yeah, I mean, there's days like, okay, I had a great day and there's days where it's like, I need to find like 10 or $20,000 by like tomorrow. And it's just the nature of being an entrepreneur, right? And I had a lot of moments like that during, you know, kind of a growth period for me. And so for me to be able to create something that random people all over the country, self-employed people get on there, type in their information. They don't even have to upload their tax documents.

We have contracts that allow us to pull the data directly from the IRS. They just verify themselves. We're partnered with ID.me. So if someone goes to log in their IRS account, irs.gov, id.me, what pops up, it's the same exact login on our page. Yeah, that's brilliant.

Cause you probably lost a lot of people at first when they had to upload their tax returns. So maybe five to 10% of people at first when they had to upload their tax returns? Um, so maybe five to 10% of people, and then that had a 40% error upload rate. Uh, now, uh, it's, it's, uh, about 82% of people that start, like give us their name, answer all the questions and we pull the... Wow. So that's a really high rate. Yeah.

And then 50% of them are eligible. And then the overwhelming majority ultimately, uh, you know, complete the process. Yeah, that's 50% of them are eligible and then the overwhelming majority ultimately, you know, complete the process. That's brilliant, man. Helping people get the money they, you know, they need. Sean, it's the coolest thing I've ever done. It's like what I try and imagine is, and don't get me wrong, like I've done a lot of cool stuff in law and I've done a lot of cool stuff in life, but you know, let's talk professionally,

right? Done a lot of really cool stuff. And with that, I mean, I mean, truly we've had the opportunity to change people's lives. But that's one at a time. This, we've helped tens of thousands of people get, you know, average refund that people can expect about five grand, right? But it's up to 32, too, right? And we see that all the time, right?

All the, I mean, a lot of big numbers, but I can't tell you how many people and customers that we've had the opportunity to talk to, or they've, you know, given us, I can't talk to everyone now. We've gotten pretty, pretty big. Over a hundred million dollars in refunds now, right? or they've given us, I can't talk to everyone now. We've gotten pretty big. Over a hundred million dollars in refunds now, right? Yeah, yeah. And counting by the day.

And it's, I mean, we're just so proud of that, man. Yeah, well over a hundred million. And we think it will well exceed that. And that sounds like a lot, but tens of billions were earmarked for this. And I bet you not two billion has been claimed. Wow. Yeah.

That's crazy. To put it in perspective ERC, because business owners are used to getting tax credits and they're not like, is this real, right? They're like, you know, their account and insurance, somebody calls them and they're like, Hey, here's this thing. They're like done, you know? Yeah. And, uh, for, you know, where you have folks who are mostly like, you just don't,

I don't want to even call it sophistication. It's just knowledge, right? That, that programs, a tax credit program for someone, um, is, is not a crazy thing. And it's just how you will see the Trump administration do a lot of tax credit, uh, programs and sometimes they're refundable. Sometimes it just offsets. Right. Um, but yeah, it helped, um, you know, well over a hundred million dollars.

And when you talk to these people, it's like life changing. We had, we had a lady right around, uh, Christmas. She was down in Mississippi and, uh, you know, her refund wasn't giant. Let's say probably like three, four, five grand, something in that range. And, uh, you know, we went to debit. We typically don't debit our fee until they get paid. That's, that's how we do it. And, uh, you know, people that have a massive amount in back taxes and there's,

they're not getting a check. It's just going to take down their back taxes. We just do a super reduced rate for them because they're coming out of pocket. Right. Um, and we want them to be able to do it. Uh, we want them to be able to get it. Um, the folks though, that, you know, pretty much everyone else, um, they have the option, they don't have to pay anything until they get paid.

option, they don't have to pay anything until they get paid. Um, but the lady around, uh, Christmas, her horror had, it went into repossession, but it had not been physically repossessed yet. And then she got her money and she got her car out of repossession, but she didn't have, you know, she spent it all, get her car repossession. And when I heard that I was like, that's amazing. That's exactly why we started this company. That was the coolest thing. I love that.

Yeah. And I was like, hey, Merry Christmas. Don't worry about it. This is why we started the company. You know, yeah. Good luck in the new year. Reminds me of, you know, Dave Portnoy. Yeah.

He started the thing during the pandemic. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Helping small businesses. Dave does great things. I really like him. Yeah. Shout out to Dave. Yeah. But yeah, we'll link the SAT stuff below if anyone's watching this. Come by Qualify. Yeah. They really should check it out. And then if anyone, I should mention too, you know, cause a lot of our team was big in ERC. Like our team probably

combined, I mean, hundreds of millions. I mean, that's our ownership, our affiliate marketers, um, massive ERC, uh, help, and these are the good guys, right? We don't work with, you know, uh, obviously there, anytime we have a government program, okay, anytime there's a government program, you may get people out there that are bad actors. They had to pause the ERC for a while. Cause about, yeah, I had to have a moratorium and all that. you may get people out there that are bad actors. They had to pause the ERC for a while. Yeah, had to have a moratorium and all that.

And that's unfortunate because these were created to help people, right? And we have painstakingly done everything that we can. And it was kind of on the heels of all that blow up, but we're like, there's a timeframe. We have 40 to 80 million people and we have to get them a safe, secure, good way to do this. And we need to build a company specifically for this

that it has the security with their sensitive data. It does do all of the right things in compliance, does look out for their sensitive data. I mean, on and on and on and on and on. You know, we did everything. It's like, how would, if this were me, this were my information, how would I want to be treated? And so we've set up, you know, just awesome there. And then we also have ERTC. so Employee Retention Tax Credit, ERTC refund.com. And so that's hard ending, April 15th.

So I highly recommend if anyone thinks that they might be eligible, free check your eligibility with us. We use only experienced CPAs that, you know, have filed these really know it and they can check the eligibility and we can get those in prior to the deadline. And then the people,

because there's hundreds of billions of dollars, that's what I'm saying. ERC, 600 billion in claims were filed, right? Yeah. Even if 20% of those were fraudulent, which they weren't. I mean, I'm sure it was a very small percentage. Um, you're talking that's still nearly almost 500 billion in ERC claims. And then, you know, some employee America, you're talking to this 40, 80 million

people and the, and some of them are so scared, they've only claimed $2 billion. Wow. So, I mean, think about that. Nuts. Yeah. 250, I mean, think about that. Nuts. Yeah. 250 X on the ERC. It's like, you know, a lot of people are afraid like, Oh, am I going to get audited?

Am I going to get in trouble? It's like, why? Why would you get audited or in trouble for claiming, you know, what's going to be on average five grand that you should have gotten on a tax credit? Yeah. I don't think they're tripping about five grand. Yeah. What are you afraid of?

Like you think, do you know what it would cost to go back and audit someone over a $5,000, even if they get $20,000? Like, I don't think people realize how much money is actually out there in the world. And how many, and it blows my mind. I was like, I had statistics the other day and it was it blows my mind. I was like, I'm gonna have statistics the other day. And it was like, you know, I was like the top,

top like one out of a thousand households, right? 0.1%. And I swear it said, so one out of a thousand households has a, in the U.S. has a net worth of $158 million. One out of 100 have a net worth of like $11.2 million. And I checked those stats like 10 times. I'm like, really? One out of a thousand households have a $158 million $158 million network. Wow. And well, and you know, Sean, it's interesting.

And something I started paying attention to a few years ago, when you travel around, we're here in Vegas. I just left, I was in Tampa, Miami, Fort Myers, and then driving all down the coast. And it's like, look at how many neighborhoods upon neighborhoods neighborhoods upon neighborhoods upon neighborhoods of five million plus dollar houses there are or how many buildings in Miami that it's a billion in real estate right there in in Pete

and I'm not gonna come out of the Miami like real estate market but they're mostly full okay and you can go everywhere in the country and, and you will find that in around the world, everywhere that's cool neighborhoods and neighborhoods of multimillion dollar residences. Yeah. And it's like, who lives in all of those. Right. And I think people don't realize that, that there is that much wealth and abundance out in the world. And so to be in a mindset that, you know,

you're gonna get over a tax credit that Congress specifically created for you, you're gonna get audited and they're gonna try and wreck your existence over five grand. It's an irrational thought. I think a lot of people were scared because of the PPP fraud articles that they blasted everywhere.

Oh yeah, New York City and all, you know, and maybe some of it, especially, you know, last administration, they're just trying to slow it down. Yeah. Because it's work, it's work for them. But, you know, they're actually processing faster the last couple of weeks. They probably got some AI these days, I bet.

I hope so. But yeah, they're processing everything much more quickly. Normally I should say, it could take 16, 20 weeks, sometimes longer for the IRS to process these. For anyone over $3,000 or more on the refund, not in Colorado or Iowa, we can get them most of their money, over 70% in about seven days. Damn, that's fast. Yeah, yeah. We got an awesome partnership with a great banking partner. They're a huge SBA lender. They're a big PPP lender. Our lending programs, FDIC's looked at it. They're

registered with the Treasury Department. Nice. So, you know, it's all done right. And we have over a billion dollars available to Lens. We'll link it below. Yeah. Anything else you want to close off with here, Matt? No, man. Thanks so much for having me, Sean.

I look back to see you soon. And yeah, man, I just hope people before the deadline coming up again, that's April 15 for most self-employed folks. And then the, anyone who filed an extension back in 22 for 21, they'll have a little bit more time. Great thing is our systems look at the dates and we know whether or not you still have time. So come check it out, free to apply.

It takes about 15 minutes. You're gonna need your ID and a camera, either on your computer or your phone, to verify your identity and find out how much you're owed. I love them, man. Can't wait to do some business together. Yeah, yeah, thanks for coming on. Thanks a lot, Sean.

Thanks for watching, guys. Check out the links and I'll see you next time.