Digital Social Hour - Sleep Paralysis, Out of Body Experiences and Meaning of Dreams | DSH #253

Episode Date: January 29, 2024

Baland Jalal comes on the show to discuss sleep paralysis, why sleep paralysis happens often in certain parts of the world and the meaning of dreams. APPLY TO BE ON THE PODCAST: https://forms.gle/qXvENTeurx7Xn8Ci9 BUSINESS INQUIRIES/SPONSORS: [e-mail] SPONSORS: Opus Pro: https://www.opus.pro/?via=DSH Deposyt Payment Processing: https://www.deposyt.com/seankelly LISTEN ON: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/digital-social-hour/id1676846015 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5Jn7LXarRlI8Hc0GtTn759 Sean Kelly Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmikekelly/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

All these things explain why the dream world is bizarre. There's a neurochemistry to it. Let me give you a great example. So have you had that dream, Sean, when you're running and you can't get away? There's this monster chasing you and your legs are so... All the time. It's a lot heavy, right? It turns out that monster represents your fear and the emotional part of the brain.

Wherever you guys are watching this show, I would truly appreciate it if you follow or subscribe. It helps a lot with the algorithm. It helps us get bigger and better guests, and it helps us grow the team. Truly means a lot. Thank you guys for supporting, and here's the episode. Welcome back to the show, guys. I'm your host, as always, Sean Kelly. Got with me a dream expert on the show today, Dr. Balan Jalal. How's it going? It's going very well. How are you, Sean? I'm good. I'm very excited for this episode. I think dreams have a lot of meaning and you can learn a lot from them. So thanks for coming.

Oh, thanks for inviting me. Absolutely. Happy to be here. So how did you get involved with studying dreams? That's a good question. So when I was a teenager back in Copenhagen, you know, one morning I was, I was, I was sleeping and I realized, I feel like something is pressing on my chest, you know, while I was sleeping. And then I realized I can actually open my eyes right now and I could sort of see my surroundings and, but I was asleep at the same time. So I was paralyzed. So I was at this paralysis from head to toe. And then suddenly

I felt there was a ghost in the room with me and it was sort of I saw my legs flying up and down and you know it was this crazy thing and from there I woke up the next day but I felt it was very real so I had this condition called sleep paralysis this terrifying condition that occurs during one of the stages of sleep called REM sleep the stage where you have vivid and lifelike dreams. And so I actually had a dream with my eyes open, so to speak. And then from there, I sort of did research on this condition and, and I got fascinated with, with dreams and the world of dreams. Wow. I actually had sleep paralysis once. One of the scariest things that's ever happened to me. Yeah. I was getting choked out by, I thought it was like a demon or a ghost or something. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it is, it is definitely crazy. You know, it is this state where you are

trapped between the craziness of dreams and think about it. I mean, during dreams, everything can happen. Everything is weird. Like the whole, the whole reality is, is messed up. Time places, people are warped. And then you have wakefulness colliding with the dream world during this condition of sleep paralysis, and you have all these demons and things like that leaking from the dream world into your bedroom, so to speak. Right, yeah. So what exactly causes sleep paralysis?

What causes sleep paralysis? Well, all of us, Sean, are paralyzed during REM sleep. So during this stage of sleep where we have lifelike and crisp dreams, our body is clever. It says, look, buddy, let me paralyze you so you can't act out these dreams and hurt yourself and your sleeping partner. So your brain stem, the lower part of your brain, paralyzes your entire body. Now, so during this paralysis there's a clever trick that the brain uses. Occasionally what occurs is that the frontal or the frontal part of the brain, so this part of the brain up

here, is different from the paralysis centers in the back and occasionally you can have premature awakening occur. So you start waking up. So these centers become active, even though you're still physiologically trapped in REM sleep. So you have all the physiological remnants of REM sleep, the paralysis and all that, but you're waking up at the same time. So you have this collision of these two worlds. And then, of course, because of the REM physiology and the dream world, which is part of the whole REM thing, you may start to hallucinate. Wow. Fascinating. And in terms of dreams, have you found out why we are dreaming? Why we are dreaming? It's a great question. So

first of all, as I said, there's this REM stage of sleep. So each night we sort of cycle through different stages of sleep. And initially our body temperature drops, our heart rates become slower, and then we hit something called deep sleep, which is a stage where our brain sort of does housekeeping chores. It cleans our cells. We even have sort of something called the lymphatic systems where cerebral spinal fluid this fluid in the brain that cleans your brain you have all that going on but then you hit this interesting dream stage right and then the question is why do we

spend so we spend approximately one third of the night in this REM stage right so it's very important this REM stage because you have these lifelike dreams. And the question is, why would, you know, your body go through all this to sort of, you know, be in the state of dreaming all night instead of cleaning your cells or something like that? It shows you it's very important. Like the actual reason for why we dream is unknown, but possibly it could be that it enhances creativity. That's one possibility. Another possibility is that when you are dreaming in REM sleep, think about it.

You are in this world and you are sort of testing all these concepts, right? So you see yourself, you know, Sean on the moon, having tea with the queen, you know, wearing a suit, you know, and then you're wrestling with an alligator at the same time. So all these strange people and concepts and time, everything is warped. wearing a suit, and then you're wrestling with an alligator at the same time. So all these strange people and concepts and time, everything is warped. So it's almost like your brain is testing various scenarios that are unrelated and sort of seeing how you react to them and how you might sort of incorporate some of these new ideas into your life.

So it's kind of like testing new ideas and things that would be impossible in real life. So it's kind of like testing new ideas and things that would be impossible in real life. So that's one possibility. Second, just from survival reasons, I mean, seeing yourself sort of running in a forest and jumping and sort of, you see yourself being chased by a tiger, something like that,

and it sort of reinforces or strengthens those neural circuits. So those circuits in your brain that's involved in those kind of things become strengthened. It's almost like you have a dress rehearsal for real life. You're practicing, but you don't have to practice by going and being chased by a monster. Your brain thinks it's real. And the reason for that is there's a part of the brain called the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex.

It's a fancy name for a cluster of neurons up here that makes it so that you do not know that you're dreaming when you're dreaming. You lose your sense of agency. And so it feels much more real. And so it allows you to be very immersed in these scenarios. And you sort of, yeah, you have all this dress rehearsal going on for for real life makes you survive right more likely to survive in the future that makes sense yep and i know people that are able to lucid dream can kind of shut that off right they can realize they're in a dream and start controlling things yeah so lucid dreams in a sense are similar in the sense that Think about this frontal part of the brain

It has to do with a sense of agency and being aware of yourself and sense of logic, right? Like I have this sense of me being me, Belant, I'm here in the wind with with you Sean. I'm wearing this clothes There's a roof. I have these concepts that I put together in a very cohesive Logical and sort of straightforward way. Now, a part of the brain that's responsible for building this cohesive reality sort of shuts down during the dream world, during the REM stage of sleep and during the dream world. And so that's why we lose that sense. Now, occasionally, during these lucid dreams you

start gaining a sense of awareness and that part of the brain shots you know gets active and you start realizing oh my god i'm actually awake i'm aware of myself right the only reason is is that part of the brain that has to do with wakefulness prematurely becomes activated and so you have this you know you find yourself knowing that you're dreaming. Yeah. It's fun. I've had it a few times. Have you had it? Yeah. I've had it a few times. Yeah. I've had it a few times, you know, just meeting people and, and, uh, you know, people you would not otherwise meet. And, um, you know, you do a lot of, a lot of fun stuff flying. Yeah. Yeah. I flew. Did you fly? I flew. I went through walls. I talked to people. Yeah, it was fun.

Yeah, yeah. It's great fun with flying. These days, people even try to see if they can induce these lucid dreams. Right. So what they do is that they may have you wear glasses. I wear these for my eyes. My eyes are photosensitive for your viewers. I'm not a mobster.

Okay. But so you may wear like goggles like this and you're told like in your dream, if you see lights flashing three times, that means that this is a dream. Be aware that you are dreaming, that you are trapped in a dream right now. And so you might actually have infiltration

of your dream in that way. So you're running around in your dream, now. And so you might actually have infiltration of your dream in that way. So you're running around in your dream, this crazy scenario, and then suddenly you see this light in the air, and then you go, okay, this is a... So you activate the neural circuits that has to do with you knowing that now you're supposed to know that this is a dream.

Wow. Yeah, I want to try that out. Have you done any studies on the spiritual side of dreaming in terms of the soul, astral projection, any of that? Yeah, it's an interesting question. So I think sleep paralysis itself, and it's a condition that sort of borders on the whole sort of spiritual because you find yourself in a state,

and I've had more sleep paralysis than the first episode and sometimes you may see an a copy of yourself hovering over you so that's very common people see it they have an out-of-body experience right you might you may have that and you may also have like people's talk about angelic figures or demonic figures and things like that um so the question is what's going on in the brain and what does it mean? Is it spiritual or not? And for me personally, you know, like for sleep paralysis, I know that if I take an electrical current and I stimulate a part of the brain up here, that's called the temporoparietal junction, a fancy name for cluster of cells here. I, you. I stimulate that part of the brain,

I disrupt it, and you will literally feel like you're hovering over yourself or you have an out-of-body experience. You might see a ghost. We can mimic some of these things in the laboratory, but does that mean that there is no spiritual reality or that spirituality is not real? No. Personally, I'm a spiritual person, even as a scientist. Wow, that's rare. Yeah, yeah, that's rare. And so I cannot negate the spiritual world. And I we don't, we shouldn't. But at the same time, we should also not be afraid of tackling these things with science, because it's a tool for us to understand the brain. And it doesn't, it doesn't mean that the spiritual part is not real that makes sense yeah

no that's very interesting because there's always been that divide with science and spiritual stuff because there's no proof right scientists are all about evidence yeah exactly are you spiritual i would say i am yeah yeah yeah no i agree i mean it's one of the things one of those things that i've always sort of um i've thought about a lot and as a scientist when i had my first sleep paralysis episode i was like um you know this has to be a ghost this has to be spiritual yeah like it was so real it felt so intensely real right but at the same time you know um science thus you know you can explain certain things in science and i think you know we should explain it using science when we can and then there are certain things we can never know fully.

And that doesn't mean they don't exist. And it's very valid for me, I mean, as a spiritual person myself. Yeah, that's cool. Do you believe dreams have meanings and symbolism within the actual dream? Do dreams have meaning or symbolism? It's a great question. So, all right. So during dreams, you know, you notice during dreams,

everything is crazy, right? As we talked about, you know, people, time, places, everything is mixed. Everything is sort of blended. And, you know, even your, and one reason for this is that there's a certain neurotransmitter, chemical in the brain that's called noradrenaline, which is sort of helps

you focus on the world and see the world in a very sort of focused and logical but also sort of focused way and that part that neurons the neurons that produce that chemicals stop working during the the dream state and so they sort of you know recharge so to speak and that's why things are spacey and crazy and all that, right? And then at the same time, you have other chemicals that have to do with serotonin. Have you heard about serotonin? It's the chemical that has to do with mood. So that is a very inhibitory chemical, serotonin.

And what it does is that the part of the brain, I'm not too technical, am I Sean? No, you're good. Okay, good. All right, so that part of the brain up here, it's sort of the part of the brain, I'm not too technical. Am I, Sean? No, you're good. Okay, good. All right. So that part of the brain up here, it's sort of the brakes on the brain. It sort of keeps everything in check, right? It makes sure that when you have emotions in real life, you go about, you know, you see a woman you find attractive.

You don't just say, oh, my God, I love you. I'm in love or something. You know, you sort of stay calm and you sort of collect yourself. And that has to do with the inhibitory nature of that part of the brain. Now, to make it short, that chemical is also not active during that dream stage. And so that's why emotions are so crazy. I mean, emotions are all over the place. Things are ecstatic or things are terrifying.

And, you know, there's emotions everywhere. That's because the emotional part of the brain is not kept in check okay so what i'm trying to get at is that you can sort of by looking at the brain and looking at the fact that you are less focused and things are spacey because of the neurochemistry well that can explain why things are so mixed mixed up the you know the part of the brain that has to do with a sense of having a body and feeling like i am embodied right i feel like i'm i'm bland and i occupy this body i don't occupy you know sean's body over there yeah that's actually a part of the brain if i zap that you know if i zap it with an electrical current i will feel like i'm merging with you i'll lose that sense of personal identity and personhood in that way, and sense of body image. Now, because of that, occasionally,

you can embody somebody else in your dream. You can, you know, you can embody, you know, Elvis Presley's body, that's fitting here in Vegas, right? So you can have his body, or you can be in a bird's body, or you can be in a, you or you can be in a, you know, you could take on different forms or you can see yourself outside yourself like a Netflix movie. So the point is that, again, neurochemistry, that part of the brain is not working, and therefore the dreams are as they are. And so what I'm getting at here is that all these things

explain why the dream world is bizarre. There's a neurochemistry to it. And so when you dream, your brain sort of has to make a cohesive story out of this. All these neurons fire. And then it cannot use the same structures that it normally would. It can't inhibit the emotions. Let me give you a great example.

So have you had that dream, Sean, where you're running and you can't get away? There's this monster chasing you and your legs are so… All the time, yeah. A lot heavier, right? So what's going on in the brain? Well, it turns out that monster represents your fear and the emotional part of the brain. So the emotional part of the brain is hyperactive, but there's no inhibition from that part that's missing that chemical.

And so you can't get away. You feel like you want to run, but you can't. Even the part of the brain that has to do with movement is also not getting the fuel from that chemical. And so you feel like you're trapped. You can't run, but all the emotions are flaring up. So all the symbolism is going on, and it has to do with how the brain is structured.

But now you can say, you can be even more meta and say, well, it doesn't matter. It can still have a deeper spiritual significance. Just because of my neurochemistry doesn't mean that it doesn't have a meaning. So you can always project meaning into that if you want to. But I'm getting at there's also a certain brain principles to explain this. Does this make sense or am I too? No, it does. I've had reoccurring dreams

like the one where I can't run or I'm naked and I've looked up meanings and it's pretty interesting. Is that your subconscious mind kind of kicking in there? Yeah. Are you interested in coming on the Digital Social Hour podcast as a guest?

We'll click the application link below in the description of this video. We are always looking for cool stories, cool entrepreneurs to talk to you about business and life. Click the application link below and here's the episode, guys. Yeah, it kind of is. I mean, think about it. I mean, even during dreams, you can think of the REM stage of sleep and that dream world as a dream where you update the sense of self, like a software update for your computer just for your sense of self. Think about it. Like your dreams, you often interact with other people.

So it has a great social component. You know, there's a disproportional amount of people in your dreams. You tend to interact with them in various ways, typically emotional, but it's often negative. So it's more negative than positive. And the reason is that you're sort of practicing and training for real life because being able to interact with people in a good way and you know learning so social skills in that way is it will you know enhance your survival

in the future right so it has that come up component so it's all about the self and the self being updated and even with sleep paralysis which is also a type of a dream you know the demon when which when it comes it's interested in your soul yeah it's not interested in your rolex or your you know your bank account or anything it's going it's once your soul and so it shows you that something about the self and the self being sort of recharged and reconfigured and sort of, you know, it's part of that whole dream world. So it's a big theme.

And usually, as I said, negative. Because it's better for your survival chances. If you see yourself, like, being chased by monsters or interacting with, you know, witches or something like that, well, you may encounter similar negative things in life that you have to learn how to deal with and strengthen your brain for those situations. You know, that's. Yeah. Interesting. What about people that say they don't remember their dreams or they don't dream? Is it possible for people not to dream at all? It's a great question. So, no, we all dream.

We all dream, and we dream during the whole night in the REM stage, of course, which is only a part of it, so one-third or something like that. So in that part of the cycle of sleep, we all have the dream going on. So for several hours, you are definitely dreaming. So the question is, what's going on? Why do some people don't remember their dreams? In fact, most of us only remember a fragment of this final portion of the dream. So Sean might go, what's going on?

How come? And one answer might be that dreams are just too overwhelming. That you are using a type of circuitry in the brain that is sort of what I would call the cosmic circuitry in the brain. Sort of everything is on steroids, right? Everything is flirting with everything. Everything is hyper-powerful. And it has so much personal meaning that you want to just go share that kind of stuff with your dreams with people you want to go and you know say i saw this dream and it's like a great visual uh you know poetry you saw the moon

and the sun in your bedroom and all that going on right but but for your brain it might just be too much for you to remember the whole thing. So it seems to have this inhibitory mechanism, a mechanism whereby it sort of shuts down your ability to remember the dreams and being able to sort of not to be overwhelmed by them. So that is a reason that we have that. In fact, and some people, to answer your question,

some people remember dreams more and they may have just be able to, maybe they have more fragmented REM sleep so they go in and out of REM more. Let me give you an example. So if you want to remember your dreams for sure, take a big glass of water and drink it before you go to bed.

And so your dreams, you'll be less sort of, more likely to wake up during REM and remember your dreams. Dream stage of sleep. I mean, dreams are insanely crazy and may even explain something like deja vu people have.

Do you have deja vu before? I've definitely had it before, yeah. Yeah, so for deja vu is this experience, you go somewhere and then you see this castle for the first time and you go, my God, I mean, I've seen this before. I've been here even though I haven't been to the city. And one possibility is that you're accidentally

activating some of those areas in the brain that is the dream circuitry of the dream world. You're activating that in wakefulness. Yeah. So that's what's going on. Interesting. Yeah. That makes sense.

Yeah, yeah. So what about blind people? Do they dream? Oh, that's a great question. So blind people, it depends on if they were born blind. So if you're born blind, that means sort of your visual cortex, for example, may not be completely working. Visual cortex just means there's an area of the brain, which is the part of your brain.

That part of the brain processes seeing things, vision. And so if you're born with no visual cortex without being able to see anything in that way, then you won't dream visually. So you'll have feelings, you feel things in your dreams, like hallucinatory sense of what you might call somatosensory hallucinations in your dream

or feelings. That's scary. Yeah, you have that or you hear things, but you don't actually see things. But if you were born being able to see the world, then you can still, even if you become blind later, you will still be able to see. Interesting. Yeah, yeah. Wow. So do you still experience sleep paralysis or did you sort of find ways to prevent getting it? It's a great question. So do I, I do still get it, you know a while, I will have sleep paralysis

and it will be scary. I did develop a therapy for it and it seems to be promising for treating it. And it's sort of based on this idea that when you're lying there in sleep paralysis, you have a few minutes of, seconds to minutes of conscious awareness. So you can almost like

manipulate your mental and emotional state so i try to do that do those tricks that i've developed and it helps me overcome the experience um but yeah i do have it once in a while and i'm able to um to to use it wow yeah do you have it also once no i had it once when i was like in high school and i haven't had it since but i know there's some people that get it all the time oh is that right yeah some people have it chronically so yeah i have it like like three or four times uh you know a week once a day and i can't imagine i i felt like i was dying when i had it is that yeah yeah people will say that so in our research i mean we find that you know, in certain cultures, for example, you know, people will say that they feel like they're dying and there's a demon and that they're being possessed by a demon and things like that.

So there's this whole scary thing around it. Yeah. Yeah, I know you studied the Egyptians, right? And you mentioned they experienced sleep paralysis a lot. You've done your homework. I have. You've done your homework. Cool, Sean.

No, so yeah definitely so in our research in various countries so i got interested in this when i was sort of so after i had my own sleep paralysis i um i went to egypt and i lived there for a while so i was a student there i was doing research while i was student being a student and then i saw i thought well hold on egyptians believe in like the genies from aladdin right yeah maybe they think sleep paralysis is caused by that so i did some research you know did some studies i actually published this and work and later on and it turned out yeah they they you know feel like it's the genie and in italy i did research and it turns out it's like

the it's something like a great like this like evil witch or giant cats that attack you interesting yeah and um in south africa it's like the small demons called the tokolosha demons we discovered that and in turkey we found a similar uh thing that's called the karabasan so all over the world there are all the there are these um explanations for sleep paralysis and so i was wondering if you live in a country like egypt for example right and you believe it's a ghost right it's it's a switch it comes at night it attacks you it might do all these things to you right does it change the experience itself like does it have an impact on the experiencer versus somebody in copenhagen who thinks no this is the brain it's just stress it's anxiety i grew up in copenhagen that's where

i had my first experience right good i know the culture very well and i know people there you know i'm my i'm danish myself with kurdish roots but nonetheless i know the culture and so i thought okay let me compare these two cultures okay so let me let me compare people in denmark who has sleep paralysis a person over here and a person in egypt and it turned out in egypt people have much more fear from sleep paralysis first of all they say this is this genie this evil you know thing that comes at night that's the first thing all right second they say the episodes last much longer. So they have this subjective experience

of the whole thing being so long, so long and the paralysis is horrible and they develop this great fear from it. So it's almost like the whole thing has become amplified. It's just more than the normal experience. You can call it ultra normal. and then what's going on then what happens is that um later on they may even develop anxiety and trauma it seems and we found similar things by the way in italy where people think it's a witch and so yeah you know it's scary yeah it's scary stuff. You know, people may even develop trauma from this.

Right. You know, PTSD as if you were in war just from sleeping. I mean, if I dealt with that once a week, I think I would be traumatized. I mean, think about it. If you are sleeping, right, and you actually really think that there is this ghost coming, you know, attacking you and doing all these kind of things to you. You may, you know, if you really think it's real, one of my colleagues out at Harvard that I work with, he did a great study.

So a portion of the American population believes that there's something similar to sleep paralysis, although we believe it is sleep paralysis, that is sort of space aliens coming down and sort of probing you and doing things to you and stuff like that. Yeah, I've seen that. Right, you've seen that. Okay, cool. So now it turns out that these people who have sleep paralysis that they explain as space alien abduction, when they listen to the audio tapes, the audio recording of their own explanation of sleep paralysis,

what occurs is that their physiological reactions to that audio script of themselves saying, I was paralyzed and the thing came down and all that, their heart rate, their sweating and everything, is comparable to somebody with post-traumatic stress disorder, with trauma. Literally, there's no difference if the person had sleep paralysis, okay, or went to war. They have similar comparable physiological reactions. And that's why I usually say to my students when I'm lecturing or anything,

I mean, this might be one of the most fascinating things in the entirety of medicine, if not science. Man. You're sleeping in your bed and you're encountering space aliens, witches, and seeing a duplicate of yourself hovering over you. I've had a copy of Balan hovering over me. Wow. We had great conversations.

And usually the conversation is, who is the real me? Is that the Balan down here, that agency and identity is being sort of hijacked and you're sort of fighting for your own selfhood. The whole dream thing again, right? So that is definitely something about sleep paralysis. My first episode just got me hooked. So how many times have you had it?

Oh man, I've had sleep paralysis a few times i mean few by few i mean i know a lot of times so i would say overall maybe a hundred times i've had it a lot and i've seen a different things and people have you know there there's an underlying structure to it there's an underlying certain themes that people you know for example they may hear footsteps that's one of the things it's so creepy so hearing footsteps or hearing like you know your name being like whoa you know that's your name yeah it's crazy and yeah and um so but yeah i know some of the people that i've seen some of the patients that I've worked with, I remember this chap in the UK

who used to have sleep paralysis where, I think it was himself or his sister, so it runs in the family as a genetic component. I think it might have been his sister who had the creepy one where she was sleeping and then there was a mirror up above her and then she was looking at it and saw her limbs being all oh my gosh imagine that it's terrifying it's terrifying yeah and um yeah so i didn't know it was genetic then yeah it runs in families so it's another thing it's genetic it

seems to be um a genetic component and it has to do with the genes that regulate regulate your sleep-wake cycle meaning that that we all, as human beings, tend to sleep in a certain way depending on the sun. So when the sun is telling our brain when to feel sleepy and go to bed and all that. And so if that gene is sort of out of whack, it's not working as it should, then you're more likely to have sleep paralysis.

Wow. Because you sort of, you can't, you know, think about it. It's like sleep paralysis is all about REM sleep, the stage of sleep where you're paralyzed to protect yourself from acting out your dreams, right? That's the whole idea. You're paralyzed from head to toe. But if there's a certain gene that makes you more likely to wake up prematurely mentally during that stage, then you have sleep paralysis. Or even if you drink alcohol, if you're stressed college students, actually stressed college students have some of the highest rates of sleep paralysis. Or even if you drink alcohol, if you're stressed college students, actually stressed college students have some of the highest rates of sleep paralysis because of their insomnia,

alcohol, stress, exams. So they tend to wake up during that stage called REM, stage of sleep called REM, as you know, and then have the episode. Interesting. So that's what it's about. Wow. Dr. Jalal, it's been a pleasure i've learned a lot anything you want to close off with or promote no i mean it's it's been great coming out here to vegas and you know to visit you and if you know my if my uh if if you want to learn about my work i'm on instagram and i'm on facebook and uh on youtube on dr dr Belangelo and all my platforms. Nice. So I don't use social media too much. Yeah, I got to call you from now on. Yeah, for sure.

All right. Well, I look forward to it. You also teach a class at Harvard, right? I do. I do research out at Harvard and occasionally lecture and yeah. Cool. Well, thanks so much for coming on. Thank you very much.

Yeah, thanks for watching, guys. I'll see you next time.