Digital Social Hour - The Untold Podcast Journey: From Gangs to Gangland | Anthony Ruggiano #886

Episode Date: November 13, 2024

Join the Digital Social Hour with Sean Kelly for an unforgettable podcast journey, "The Untold Podcast Journey: From Gangs to Gangland," featuring special guest Anthony Ruggiano Jr. Dive deep into Anthony's gripping transformation from mob life to sobriety and redemption. With 36 years of recovery under his belt, Anthony shares his extraordinary stories from his time in the mafia and prison, offering insights into a world few have experienced. 💡 Explore the shift from crime to counseling, and learn how he turned his life around. Packed with valuable insights, this episode is a must-watch for anyone curious about the untold stories of the underworld. Don't miss out! 📺 Tune in now and subscribe for more insider secrets. Hit that subscribe button and stay tuned for more eye-opening stories on the Digital Social Hour with Sean Kelly! 🚀 Join the conversation and be part of this amazing transformation story. #jeffnadu #truecrimedocumentary #howardbeach #substanceabuse #recoverycoach #counseloreducation #substanceabuse #recoverycoach #addictioncounselor #chrisherren CHAPTERS: 00:00 - Prison Squad 00:35 - Intro 04:56 - Dr*g Trafficking Experiences 06:55 - Reasons for Imprisonment 08:01 - Mafia's Current Money-Making Methods 09:37 - Advanced Surveillance Techniques 10:59 - Modern Illegal Income Strategies 13:52 - Father's Candid Life Stories 16:26 - Father's Lavish Lifestyle 17:55 - John Gotti's Influence 19:14 - Close Calls with Law Enforcement 23:13 - Mafia Sit-Down Negotiations 25:20 - Most Successful Mafia Families 26:56 - Understanding the RICO Act 29:30 - Life After Organized Crime 34:15 - Coping with PTSD 40:10 - Realization of FBI Surveillance 45:55 - Father's Background in the Mob 49:52 - Where to Find Anthony 49:54 - Upcoming Projects APPLY TO BE ON THE PODCAST: https://www.digitalsocialhour.com/application BUSINESS INQUIRIES/SPONSORS: [e-mail] GUEST: Anthony Ruggiano https://www.instagram.com/anthonyruggianojr/ https://www.reformedgangsters.com/ www.youtube.com/@AnthonyRuggiano SPONSORS: BetterHelp: https://www.betterhelp.com/DSH LISTEN ON: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/digital-social-hour/id1676846015 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5Jn7LXarRlI8Hc0GtTn759 Sean Kelly Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmikekelly/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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and authorized gaming partner of the NBA. BetMGM.com for terms and conditions. Must be 19 years of age or older to wager. Ontario only. Please play responsibly. If you have any questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connex Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. BetMGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. Did you have the same squad you hung out with in prison?

Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I was hung out with Italian guys, you know, mob guys, you know, I did state time, New York state time, and then I did federal prison time. So it's different in the New York state. The Italian guys were like, we were like, pretty much hooked up with the line kings, like we had each other's back in the feds. It was all there was so many Italian guys. So we were all clipped up really by what city we came from. There was the New York crew, the Philly crew, the Chicago crew. There was that many Italian guys? Oh yeah, from all over the country. Yeah. All right guys, got Anthony Ruggiano here today. Thanks for coming on, man.

Oh, my pleasure. I've been looking forward to it. Yeah, I've been seeing you blow up on the internet. Thank you. Yeah. How long you've been doing the podcast for now? About three years, coming up on three years. You know, I. How long you've been doing the podcast for now? About three years coming up on three years. You know, I just got into this, you know, I had no clue about podcasts or shows. And I just got a phone call one day that these people in England were looking, keep hearing things about me and my father. And they wanted to put me on the show National Geographic

knock awards. And I did it. and then one thing led to another, and I wanted to get my own podcast. Nice. And do you interview people, or is it just you? No, I do both. I interview, I tell my own story, you know, I interview people, I interview people that I know. I interview people that are in recovery, because I'm in recovery, so yeah, I interview people.

All right. How long you been in recovery? I'm'm in recovery. So yeah, I interview people. How long you been in recovery? I'm coming up on 36 years. Holy crap. Clean and sober. Dude, congrats. Before you were born. Yeah, I'm 27, so.

I got clean in 1989, January of 1989. And it was really bad before that? Yeah, it was, the last few years were bad. The last few years were pretty, were kind of crazy last few years were pretty were kind of crazy. Yeah What was the substance it was alcohol cane? Okay now cool. Yeah, I was free base and cocaine at the end You know, it was not a not pretty you were free basin. What's that? It's before crack That we would make cook it up ourselves and smoke it and then they have to what I had progressed into crack cocaine

But this they used to call for you. I don't know if you ever heard of Richard Pryor did you ever hear of Richard Pryor? No. He was a famous comedian he caught on fire from Free Basin that's how it was a form so you took the cocaine and you you you purified it yourself and you smoked it. Whoa. Yeah. So you kind of made it on your own. Yeah it was bad. Damn. It was bad. And what what compelled you to that addiction you think? Well, you know, and I'm a seventies kid, so I'm in the early seventies, you know, I'm in the mall,

my father's a made guy, you know what I mean? So now a lot of doors were opening for me and I'm running around Manhattan, I'm running around to all these clubs and everybody's blowing coke, you know, it was very expensive. It was like the beautiful people did it back then, like I guess you could say,

and it was all in all the clubs in Manhattan. And it started out like anything else, recreationally, having a good time, sniffing a little coke, drinking, the girls, the this, the that. And then over the years, the progression of the disease of addiction. And then, just in the early 70s,

we started out on weekends and then as time went on and then into the 80s it started becoming an issue. I guess maybe the way I was wired I mean because you know it's funny when you talk about addiction because people that I used when I was a kid in my 20s didn't become addicts but I did. So you know maybe it's just hereditary or the way I was wired, my personality, and then in the 80s it became an issue. It started becoming an issue and then in 88, I went into a treatment center.

My father's partner, Tony Lee, paid for me to go into a treatment center in Vermont and I got clean and I came out and I've been clean. Wow, these days it seems like, because they're laced, it doesn't even seem worth it. It's terrible. Now I work in, that's what I do now. I work, besides having my podcast and all this

and doing these interviews, I work in a detox now. I became a counselor, I was a counselor, case manager, now I'm a technician at a detox. So I deal with addiction every day. Damn. Yeah, it just seems like the chances of dying are so high. Now it's not even worth just randomly doing it at a party. Oh, no.

I tell my patients, today you're playing Russian roulette. If you buy street drugs today, you're playing Russian roulette because fentanyl is in everything. I mean, it's literally in everything. You know, you think you're buying cocaine and you're gonna do a few lines of coke, there's fentanyl in it, and you're overdosing. You think you're buying some Xanax, you know,

some Bruce Bar, you know, Xanax, and there's fentanyl in it, so kids today, if I was getting high today, I'd be dead. Crazy, yeah, back then when you were doing it, no one was overdosing, right? They were, but not like today. You know, like randomly, you know from heroin it was all heroin, you know I never messed with heroin But yeah that overdoses were not like today every day people are dying every day

It's terrible. Were you strictly on the consumer side or were you pushing it too? No Bet MGM authorized gaming partner of the NBA has your back season long. From tip-off to the final buzzer, you're always taken care of with the sportsbook Born in Vegas. That's a feeling you can only get with BetMGM. And no matter your team, your favorite player, or your style, there's something every NBA fan will love about BetMGM. Download the app today and discover why BetMGM is your basketball home for the season. Raise your game to the next level this year with BetMGM, a sportsbook worth a slam dunk,

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Really wasn't, you know, I mean, I pushed it once in a while. You know, my brother had a very big marijuana business. Back when marijuana was illegal. Unfortunately, he was away ahead of his time. So he had a really big marijuana business in the seventies and eighties. But other than that, we were on pushing drugs. Did he get popped?

He, you know, it's funny. He never got popped, but the guys that worked for him and ran for him, a couple of them went to prison for it, but he never asked for it. Oh, so they didn't rat on him? No, no, no. Nice.

Back then, no. So they went to prison for marijuana. That's so silly to say it now, right? It's legal everywhere. I mean, listen, even me, I went to prison for bookmaking. It's legal today, sports betting. Numbers is the lotto. That's everything I went to jail for outside a murder is legal today crazy. That makes you feel pissed probably right? It does at times it does yeah, definitely served years. I went to jail for years

I got I spent 14 years in pretty holy crap was that mainly for the bookmaking well No, when I the first time I went to prison was in 1978. I went to prison for we robbed the liquor warehouse. And then I went to prison in 91. That was for policy. That was for the lottery. We had a number of business. Lottery? Yeah, you know, the lottery that they have now.

The states all have the lottery, the numbers. So we had an illegal number of business. And I went to jail for that. And then in 95 I got arrested for sports betting, for bookmaking, and I went to jail for that, and extortion, and a whole bunch of other stuff. Which one brought in the most money? Oh, the bookmaking brought in the most,

the numbers really, the numbers brought in the most money, because that's an everyday thing. That's like people are betting dollars, and 50 cents and quarters and dimes and five dollars. So, you know, we would, it was a lot of money. Wow. So you literally had your own lottery. That's crazy.

Yeah, we did. I didn't know that was a business. Yeah, that was a big business. Yeah, it was a big business. Big, yeah. But I went to jail for it, of course. Yeah. I always wonder what the mafia does now for money

because it's a lot harder to get away with stuff, right? You know, that's a good question, because I was talking to somebody the other day, like, I don't know what they do anymore, because everything, like I said, everything I did to earn money today is legal. You know, they're selling drugs, that's for sure. I mean, that's for sure.

And probably, you know, white collar crimes, you know, stocks, bonds, whatever they could. Listen, the mob is going gonna do whatever they could do to make money. They're gonna figure, think ways to, you know, make money. But everything I did to make money back then, I couldn't do today. First of all, there's too much surveillance.

There's cameras everywhere you go. I mean, there's cameras in fucking people's doorbells. It's insane. And you know, like I made money with fraudulent credit cards, you couldn't do that no more. Because every store you go in his cameras, right? Then I had a vending company. I mean, I'm sure there's still people out there with gambling machines, and bodegas and all that stuff. So they still make money with gambling. Because even though

gambling is legal, not everybody has a that stuff. So they still make money with gambling because even though gambling is legal Not everybody has a bank account So if you don't have a bank account, you can't hook the app up to a checking account or a savings account You can't bet legally. So you're going to go to a bookmaker So there's ways for them to make money not like it used to be and there's no more violence. Hmm. So no more like Murders or anything? No, they're not doing that anymore. I mean. Was it because they kept killing each other?

They were like, we need to stop. It's because really because of the surveillance, because of the laws and because people are cooperating. Yeah, the surveillance is insane. I'm watching these cases on these rappers right now and they tracked the murder from their phones and the towers. It showed they were at the same place at the same time.

And then you got like the Colombo. And then you got everybody's on TikTok and YouTube and Instagram. And this kid, this guy was on the Lamb Colombo guy, a captain in the Colombo family, Michael Francis's whole family. He was on the lam hiding from the FBI and his son put his picture on Instagram or TikTok and the guy had to go surrender himself because they knew where he was.

Yeah, because all they need is a photo now, right? That's it. Even your Tesla, if you have a Tesla, it pretty much tracks wherever you go. Everywhere. That's crazy. So the way I made money back then, I could never, I want to know how to make money illegally today.

You know, well, I would, because somebody asked me the other day, if I had to do anything illegal today, what would I do? And I says, I would do two things. They said what? I would smuggle untaxed cigarettes from Florida to New York because the New York cigarettes are $17 a pack and then when I got to New York,

I would go to Canal Street and get knockoff Gucci's and Louis Vuitton's and bring them back to Florida. That's the only thing I would know how to do right now. It's tough. But I'm not, I mean, that's what I would do. Yeah, cigarettes in prison sell for a lot though, right? A lot right now. You can't smoke in here.

You gotta smuggle in minutes, like drugs now. Crazy. When you were in prison, were there drugs everywhere, you gotta smuggle in minutes, like drugs now. Crazy, when you were in prison, were there drugs everywhere? Everywhere. I wonder if you still like that now. The first time I went to prison, I had my own drugs, I mean, I was getting, the COs were bringing me marijuana and volumes and alcohol.

Wow, that's not too bad then. No, no, it was good. Yeah, the second and third time, I wasn't using them, I was cleaning everything, so I had no use for anything like that. But I did have use for food. They were bringing us food, a lot of, you know. So that was good.

Did you have the same squad you hung out with in prison? Yeah, pretty much. I mean, I was hung out with Italian guys, you know, mob guys, yeah. Yeah, you were probably protected pretty well. We had our own little clique. We were always hooked up on this. It's different.

You know, I did state time, New York state time, and then I did federal prison time. So it's different. In the New York state, the Italian guys were like, we were like pretty much hooked up with the Latin Kings. Like we had each other's back. Yeah, in the state prisons. In the feds, it was all, there was so many Italian guys.

So we were all clicked up really by what city we came from. There was the New York crew, the Philly crew, the Chicago crew. There was so many Italian guys, so we were all clicked up really by what city we came from. There was the New York crew, the Philly crew, the Chicago crew. There was that many Italian guys? Oh yeah, from all over the country, yeah. Holy crap, which fed prison were you in? I was in school kill for five years. I was in Oldiesville.

I bounced around, but I did most of my fed time in school kill. My roommate was Kevin Kelly, he was a Westie. Kevin Kelly. Ever hear of the Westies? Yeah, the Irish, right? Yeah, from House Kitchen. Same name as you. Yeah.

Were you on good terms with the Westies when you were out of prison? When I was out of prison, yeah. Oh, yeah, definitely. They were with the Gambino fam. Oh, they were? Oh, okay. What about other spots like Biker Gangs?

You know, I never really did any business with biker gangs. I knew a couple of them, you know, but I wasn't really friendly friendly with them. We never really had much interaction with them, but the Westies were a lot of interaction, a lot of interaction with Dominicans. I had, cause I had a vending company. So my vending company were machines

and there were a lot of illegal gambling machines. And I had them in like a bad neighborhoods, more to say in the hood. That's where the money was. And I had them in Dominican after hour clubs and Puerto Rican bodegas. So I did a lot of business with the Hispanic population. Interesting.

So all the beef then was internal is with other families mainly? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's what I noticed with all the documentaries I watched. It's never like other- No, always within Amongst ourselves was it within your family or was it with the other families mainly in my day?

It was just within in the Gambino family, but I mean, you know all them the mob was that or in my time all Internal like the Colombo war was internal Michael Francis could talk to you about yeah about that Yeah So it was all and even the people that got killed in the Gambino family was all internal. Damn. Was your dad pretty open with you about everything

or was he keeping it pretty secret? No, he was very open with me. I mean, in the beginning, you know, growing up when I was a kid, he was in the mob since the day I was born. He got, he became a made member the same year I was born in 1953. So I grew up in it, in life I mean you know and in the beginning I didn't really know

what he did but I just knew something was different. But when I started at 16 when I actually went to work for him then he started to school me in the life and then when I was in my early 20s he started telling me about acts of violence that he personally committed with other members, like he would tell me we would be out one night and we would meet this guy and he would tell me I did a piece of work with him. That meant that you know, they committed a murder together. Damn, because in the mob, they consider murder work. That's the code name. Like he

did a piece of work. Wow. And he was just telling you this in your 20s. Yeah, my 20s. Yeah, my 20s. And how did you react you this in your twenties. Yeah, my twenties. Yeah, my twenties. And how did you react? Were you like, holy crap, this is serious? Honestly, I was impressed. I didn't expect that answer.

At that point in time, listen, you gotta understand, I was raised with this mentality that that way of life was the right way of life. And society out there's way of life was the right way of life and society out there's way of life was the wrong way of life. So this was ingrained in my brain and these are the people I grew up with, these are the adults that I grew up around.

So when I got into the street, like I was impressed that I was Fat Andy's son. So that gave me like a little swagger, you know what I mean? I got some kind of respect and I liked the feeling. It was like a drug. I liked that feeling. I liked doors being open for me, you know, like I like being able to go to the Copacabana, like in Goodfellas, through the basement, up through the kitchen. You know, wow, that actually happened. Oh, yeah. That's that's a real thing.

Yeah. And I liked it, you know. So so, you know, when he told me, and his reputation, I liked it, I like, you know, his reputation impressed me, but you know what I mean, the mob life impressed me and he was, he was like, he was a big figure in the mob. So when he told me about things like that, it really didn't faze me. Now when I think of it now, I was fucking crazy. It was crazy.

You know? And then later on, him and I actually committed a murder together. You know, like it's insane. Wow, you and your dad? Yeah. Damn. We're not together.

He was in prison and he okayed a murder. Okay. That's nuts. And sometimes a flashiness is the demise of the person. Like with Gotti. Without a doubt, yeah, well he was way too, I mean that was crazy. He was on the front page of Time Magazine.

My father was never that flash. I mean my father was front page news. That's how we found out, you know, that's how my kid brother found out my father was in the mob because he was on the front page of the newspaper. So he had no idea. No, he was mob because he was on the front page of the newspaper. So he had no idea. No, he was, because he was two years younger than me. So when my father had gotten arrested for bookmaking,

sports, because it was illegal, and it was on the front page of the newspaper, and my father was upstairs, and my father said, did Albert read the newspaper? And I said, yeah, because he was a really good baseball player, my brother, and my father used to go to all those little league games, and he had a really good baseball player. My brother and my father used to go to all those little league games and he had a game that night

and my father went downstairs and says to my brother, you read the paper? And he said, yeah. And he says, you still want me to come to the baseball game with you? And my brother said, of course I do. So that's how my brother found out he was in the mob. And then it's funny because we went to the game that night

and all the fathers, all the baseball fathers, they didn't know out he was in the mob. And then it's funny, because we went to the game that night, and all the fathers, all the baseball fathers, they didn't know my father was in the mob. Now they all knew. They were like, oh, Andy, we didn't know. They were like his best friend. They were like so thrilled. Yeah, they suck it up. Because back then, that's massive respect.

Big, and then even me. Like in 1974, I got arrested on Mulberry Street in Little Italy. I got arrested, and it was in the newspaper. That was the first time my name was in the newspaper. You know, I went out that weekend and I was like a celebrity. You know what I mean?

Like it was, you know, it was intoxicating. Yeah, I could see why Gotti fell in love with the attention. Of course. I always used to go out with John Gotti. He used to sign autographs. Damn. Oh, so you were hanging with him. Hanging with him, yeah.

He bought me a car when I got out of the drug treatment center. So you were really close with him. Oh yeah, I was were hanging with him. Hanging with him, yeah. He bought me a car when I got out of the drug treatment center. So you were really close with him. Oh yeah, I was very tight with him. For some reason he liked me, thank God. I haven't heard many positive things about him, but it sounds like you were. No, see, we had a different, me, my family, and my friends

had a very different relationship with him than the rest of the city, because we knew him from when he was a nobody. Like we all come from the same neighborhood. My father knew him since he was a kid. His partner Tony Lee knew him since he was a teenager. So I knew him from when I was 16, he was in his 20s. So we knew him before he was John Gotti, let's say.

So we had a different relationship with him. And we lived in ozone parks, so we had access to him every day. Got it You know what I mean? We had some things in common, you know So I got along really good with him and he always looked out for me nice Were you telling him to tone it down or no? No, you just let him live it up. No because actually The people that were around them really like the notoriety Listen any mob guy that tells you they don't like reading their names in the newspaper

Foolish even if it's derogatory stuff. They like it. You know what I mean? They like it Did you ever deal with Sammy back then too? No, I but I knew Sammy, you know, I never had any dealings with him Personally, but you know, we knew each other, you know He used to you know, he was, he was a very stern guy back then, but I used to see him all the time at the Ravenite. And my old man and his partner had a construction company. They did business with Sammy, construction stuff, but I didn't know him like I know him now.

Man, his stories are legendary. He's escaped death many times. I'm sure you have too. Was there any moments in your career where you're like, I might not walk out of this room? There was a couple of meetings I went on that were kind of dangerous. Like I went on, did you ever see the Gangs of New York, that movie, the Gangs of New York with Leonardo DiCaprio?

A while ago, yeah. Okay, well, the tunnels down in the Five Points, those tunnels still exist. Really? And I had a meeting down there once, and it was kind of eerie walking points those tunnels still exist really yeah, and I had a meeting down there once and in the and and It was kind of eerie walking through those time I bet like you know you could get lost down there, and I was gonna How'd I fuck at this place?

You know and I had to meet these kids that had straightened out some beef You know but I made it out a couple of times that guns pointed at me You know I was a couple of times. I was in clubs where shootouts took place, you know, but I pretty, I made it out. Holy crap. Yeah, back then they were probably less strict on the guns in the clubs. Oh yeah, we used to take guns on airplanes.

We used to put them in our luggage and go on an airplane with guns. Everything was white. I used to take a gun on an airplane. Holy crap. That's nuts. What was the beef you were settling underground? Was that between families?

No. Well, what happened was we were in a club and a friend of mine, some friends of mine that were with us had a beef outside and someone got stabbed. Damn. And for some reasons, it was really more of a shakedown. They wanted to press charges. And this guy, Greg, knew this. They were like a gang from down there,

and that's where they stood in these tunnels. So I had to go down there and bring their money, and it was, and I had to go, and they met me in the street, and then him and this, and they walked us down through all these tunnels, and to where they were waiting for me. So it was a little eerie.

I wasn't really worried about getting hurt, hurt, like killed or anything, but it was an uncomfortable feeling. Damn, that's crazy. I can tell you that. Yeah, because people couldn't lay a hand on a made man, right? No, I mean you could, but you would have got killed for it.

I mean, even a made guy's son, I mean, if anybody would have killed me back then, they would have been in a lot of trouble. I mean, some people try to, I almost got stabbed one night in a club Dan they had a big sit down over it my own man knows you though or They knew Yeah, they said they try to say they didn't but they knew who we were and uh,

And what happened was a guy went to stare me and there was like a ceramic airstray on the bar and my friend My friend sally minicello saw the guy and the guy and he took the ceramic airstream And he hit the guy on the head with it. Then the knife fell out of his hand. And there was a couple of wise guys there. And so we had a big sit down over that and the kid that tried to stare me actually ran away. It's a funny story. Because now the kid knew knew he was in trouble. And he ran away. Geez, like he left the neighborhood. He came from

downtown Manhattan, and he left the neighborhood. He came from downtown Manhattan and he left the neighborhood and years later I'm in jail in 1979. I mean just happened in the early 70s. Yeah, I'm in jail and I'm in my room because we had I was in a prison where we had rooms and ought to kill and this guy comes up To the to my room and he goes listen. There's a a guy in the yard and this kid's nickname was Mush. He goes, this kid Mush is in the yard, he's terrified, he found out you were here. So I said, oh, Mush is here, you know.

So he came, he's a tank and he came up to, I said, go get him and they got him, they brought him up to my room and you know, he was, I'm so sorry, you know, and we just let it go. We patched it up. Yeah, we just let it go. Patched it up? Yeah, yeah, we patched it up. Yeah, this was like five or six years later. Damn, you probably didn't even recognize him.

That's crazy. How did those sit downs work? Like, is it just like the movies where each side speaks? Yes, it's like a board meeting. It's like a, it's like a business meeting. You know, it's a, you sit down, you know, you do, most of the time it's over money or, you know, or business or somebody got, or it's over money or, you know, business or somebody

got, or it could be over something violent, you know, but most of the time it's strictly over business, over money. I mean all the sit downs, most, I want to say all, most of the sit downs that I was personally involved in were all over money. Who owed, this who owed money, if we owed money, they owed money, or some kind of business or some kind of location, like a vending location. Like in other words, if I have a vending machine in your bar, and you're the owner of the bar

and I'm your vendor, so this is a mob thing, and I'm your vendor, and you sell the bar to someone else, that's still my, and now that someone else is with a different mob guy or a different family, the vending location still belongs to me. Got it, okay. But sometimes the other day, we try to get out of that,

or you know, and that would be a sit down, because it's still my spot, and I would maybe be asked to give the spot up Or maybe yes to sell the spot make sense sit down, you know stuff like that But making what percent of money did you have to kick up when you first joined? Well, I really didn't have to kick up anything because my father was all right But usually you kick up 10% or you make a part, you know make them partners but I mean when I when I when I my father was in prison, and he went and his partner Tony Lee

died, and I just put them on the payroll like my vendor company, I would give them money every week out of my my vendor company, but I didn't have to kick up but guys everybody kicked up usually an envelope every month, some guys kicked up 2500 some guys kicked up 1000 old dependent500, some guys kicked up $1,000, it all depended. I mean, my father and his partner probably were getting maybe 20, 30 thousand a month in envelopes from people that were with him.

That's solid, back then that's, yeah. A lot of money, no, they made a lot of money. That's when money was money. Yeah, were you guys the most successful family financially, you think? The Gambino's all without a doubt. Yeah, the Gambino's and the Genovese family, they were the two biggest.

But I would say it's like, oh, it's crazy money. I mean, listen, I had a nothing vending company. I mean, I had a small little vendor company and I was bringing in 20, 25,000 a week cash. A week? Yeah. Dude, back then, that's like 50K these days. And then, I mean, it's all gone now. All spent on lawyers.

You know, even my, so the number business, so the pile of, so numbers, so numbers like a lot, you know, you go in stores now and there's a lottery machine and people are waiting online to play the lottery. Back then it was in the neighborhoods, it was in Jamaica, Queens. We were doing a day, now we weren't making it. So it's a whole procedure

So there's a banker. There's a controller and then there's runners. We were the controllers So the banker would give us 35% of the gross Got it, and we would give the runner so a runner you would be a runner you would bring me business And I would give you 25% So if you brought me a thousand dollars000 a day in business, you kept 25%. Got it. So when the smoke cleared, the controller made 10%. We were doing grossing 80, $90,000 a day. Holy crap. On the lottery? On the lottery. Damn. It was insane. So we, you know, now that at 9,000 that we made every day, of course we had expenses, we had to pay people, you know?

But so you're talking a lot, and this is all cash. This ain't no credit cards. So, you know, just think of the mob, the money the mob makes. That's insane. And then the Rico came, right? The Rico came, and you know, it's funny, because when the Rico started, the test case,

when they got their first conviction for the Rico. I remember my old man was sitting in the kitchen in his robe and he had the newspaper open. Then I came up from downstairs, I lived in a basement. We had an apartment and I came upstairs to have coffee with him and he had the newspaper open and he says, it's all over for us. Whoa, so he knew right away.

He knew right away. He said, it's all over for us. And you know what? And away knew right away He says all over for us and you know what and between him and I we got indicted for five Rico's damn Five ones already hard to fight but five I got indicted For two I got indicted for two federal Rico's in one state Rico. Holy crap. Which one was the toughest one? Well, the last one I the last federal indictment, RICO I had that I went to prison for was in 96. I got indicted in 96 in Florida, right down here in Miami for a RICO I took a plea, I got 10 years.

And then when I got out in 04, in 05, I got indicted for another federal RICO with a murder. They waited till you got out. Yeah, they waited, I committed a murder in 1988. They put that in a RICO and then I cooperated later about a year after that. So yeah, I got indicted for three RICO's and I was one of the first people

to get indicted for a state RICO. Wow, I didn't know there was a state RICO. Yeah, they have a state RICO. Yeah, New York state has a RICO. They call it an orca, whatever that means. Yeah, but it's just organized crime something Holy crap everything has initials so they put murder under the Rico. I don't know. Yeah, that's what they do Yeah, they put it's a predator Rico has to be predicate acts

So that's to be an ongoing criminal conspiracy, but it has to have predicate acts so my Rico was murder and gambling Those are my predicate acts to show that I stood in though You know that it was an ongoing, I was part of an ongoing criminal enterprise. The first other RICO that I went away for in 96, the predicate acts were extortion, murder to conspiracy, arson. It was all predicate acts showing,

like over a period of time. Damn, you were living fearless back then. Yeah, I had no conscience, you know. No, really, no, I had no conscience. It was just, that's what we did. People asked me what my job was. My job was I was a criminal. That was my job.

Every waking moment of the day, we committed crimes. If my eyes were open, I was committing a crime. That's how, and that's why when I, that's why I had no skills. My father taught me how to be a criminal, I mean, because that's what he believed in. And then when I got out of the life, I had no skills. And it was kind of scary because I don't know

how to fix it, I still have no skills. I had no social security, I had no 401k, I had nothing. The mob doesn't give you a retirement plan. There was no money. I had nothing, you know, the mob doesn't give you a retirement plan. You know what I mean? There was no money, you know? And so now when I cooperated and I got out of the life, when, you know, I'm 60 years old, I had no skills. And then one day my phone rings.

And it's this friend of mine that ran a treatment center. And he goes, listen, I spoke to the owner of the treatment center. And we want to offer you a job. I said, a job? Doing what? They said, we think you would make a good counselor. I said, what the fuck? Counselor? I don't know nothing about being a counselor. He goes, no.

He goes, listen, we think with your life experience and everything you overcame, the mob, jail, you know, you got a lot of years sober, we think you would, you know, really do good as a counselor and we want to put you back in school to become a I said school now, you know He goes, yeah, you know, we'll pay for it, you know, and you know and and and I thought about it and and and I You know and and I did it I packed up and I left We're out of michigan

I was living in michigan at the time and I came to florida and I left Michigan, I was living in Michigan at the time, and I came to Florida and I became a counselor. So really, so I guess my skill was my life. Your experience, yeah. My experience, yeah. Because you got clean years prior, so. Yeah, and that's another thing, here I am now I'm clean. That's when my thought process started changing. So now I'm clean and I'm trying to work

this 12-step program and I'm hanging out with people that are clean and I'm still in the street I'm still committing crimes in and where things started rubbing me the wrong way like things that had never fazed me when now I start to like I was starting to develop in spite of myself really I was developing a conscience And I started feeling uncomfortable again in my own skin And and then you know like I hit a bottom with the drugs like I started hitting a bottom with my life My lifestyle, you know, you know, I hit a bottom with the drugs like I started hitting a bottom with my life my lifestyle you know right you know I had two kids I had a little girl I had a son a daughter and you know I'm now here I am I'm clean I'm clean a lot of years I'm clean like nine or ten years and I'm

locked up in Attica which was a violent prison cockroaches crawling all over the wall you know and I'm gonna like what the fuck am I doing geez you know and then I got indicted while I'm in prison. I get indicted in Florida Oh, you know and you know now it's just was it you know, like it was a crazy way to live it And but I never knew that mmm And you know, I never knew that until I got clean and I started working on myself, you know And and then I wrote I wrote like an autobiography of my life because she lights like Yeah, I don't know if you know anything about the 12 steps. I do. All right And I wrote like an autobiography of my life. Of course, you like strike.

Yeah, I don't know if you know anything about the 12 steps. I do. All right, so in the fourth step, I had to take a personal inventory of myself. And I wrote that inventory while I was in Attica in a jail cell. Wow.

And I looked at, and I just said that I can't do this anymore. Damn, hell of a story, man. That's crazy. Yeah, because in prison, you're surrounded by drugs, but you're sober. So it must've been a weird kind of dynamic, right? Yeah, you know what?

This is how I felt. Somebody asked me that question in prison. So now I'm in Attica. I don't know if you know. So now I'm in Attica. I don't know if you know. So now I'm in Attica. I have a federal detainer on me. So they said they raised my security to high, super high. So now Attica is probably one of the most secured violent prisons in the New York state system. And now I'm in Attica. But now I have now this is how crazy life is. So now I have my own cell.

I have a little 13-inch TV in my cell. I have a box window that in the winter, it's like a refrigerator. I have two hot pots. I have a robe. I have some comforts, right? So now someone asked me one day, why don't you even smoke a joint and everything?

I said, listen, why would I smoke a joint? And then they take my urine and I give them a dirty urine and I'm going to lose everything in my cell? Is it worth me my TV? It's not worth my TV. It's not worth my hot pot because people that have people that have issues with drugs have to understand that when you cross over the imaginary line into addiction, when you use any substance, there's gonna be consequences. And until you're not okay with those consequences, you're gonna keep using. So my consequence in Attica was if I used,

yeah, I would like to use. I would like to smoke a joint right now. I would like to go smoke a joint today. But if I used then, and I gave them a dirty year and I'm gonna lose all this stuff and that's a consequence I wasn't willing to take. Smart. Damn, you seem really level headed

for all the stuff you've been through, dude. Do you have any like PTSD or like? I probably do. I was in, well, I think my therapist, I was in therapy because when I first went into the, when I left New York, I had to live under a assumed name and everything. And I was getting a little jammed up in the head because nobody knew who I was and I needed someone to know who I was. So I found a therapist.

It's like Sopranos. Yeah, exactly. And I told her who I was. And she used to do some, she said I had a lot of try I had a try I was traumatized. Oh, yeah No, I definitely was you know, it's not normal things. I did. Yes. So she we were working on a few things. Um, I Don't know if I have PTSD. I mean I do have some issues. I have issues nightmares. I Have nightmares. Yeah, I have I have some guy I get sometimes I wake up in the middle of the night and and you know, like I think about things I did people I hurt

You know, I mean like I hurt my family, you know, I did bad things. I didn't listen I was a violent criminal, you know, I did damage to my children. I missed a lot of their lives I feel some remorse. I feel like I Get I missed a lot. I believed in what I did. I believed in that way of life because that's what's instilled to me and I didn't take other people into consideration.

And I think I gave up a lot for that life. Like I went to jail, the last time I went to jail, my daughter was three. I got out, she was 11. My son was three. I got out, she was 11. My son was 13. I got out when he was 21. You know, I gave up so much for that life. And at the end of the day,

it wasn't worth it because that life betrayed me. Damn. That's a deep statement, man. Cause that was your whole life. That's everything you knew, your father's life. Holy crap. But you didn't feel the remorse in the moment. It was all after.

Didn't even phase me. Listen, I got locked up for murdering my brother-in-law. I picked him up and drove him to a place where he got murdered. Like I drove him to his death. And you knew? Yeah, I knew. Of course, we planned it for months.

Your father planned it, right? Yeah, he okayed of course, we planned it for months. Your father planned it, right? Yeah, he okayed it. John Gotti okayed it, and it didn't even faze me. Damn. Now I think of it now, and it's horrible. I didn't take my sisters into consideration, I didn't take my niece into consideration. It was horrible what I did, and now I think of it now,

and how do I mend that fence? my niece into consideration, like it was horrible what I did, you know? And now I think of it now and like, how do I mend that fence? How do I, you know, how do I, you know, my niece hates me, it's terrible what we did. You know, but back then, you know, the way I, it just, I was just a different person. Yeah, that's crazy. You were so programmed to that life,

you didn't even think about how other people would react. I picked him up, he was smiling, he got in my car. Oh, he had no idea. Oh no, he had no idea. Damn. No, he had no idea. That's crazy. Yeah, that's the mob.

But that's, listen, that's the mob, the father and son planning a murder. That's the mob. And a guy like Joe Melina, speaking to Joe Melina, guys like that and guys that are in the street today, they think that's okay. I'm wrong for thinking the way, I'm wrong for thinking that that was wrong.

I mean, how crazy is that? Yeah, you were taught to never snitch, never route on anyone. Never, never, that's okay. Like Sammy talks, Sammy the Bull, he frames it like really well People listen if you choose to be in the life of the mob his rules

And you have to know it going in that if you break these rules you might pay with your life and the people that I know died broke the rules the people that I know died broke the rules. You know, but who are we to judge them? Who are we to decide who lives and who dies? That's my point. Like who was John Gotti to decide who lives or dies?

Who was Fanny Andy to decide who lives or dies? But that's the life that they led, that if you break rules, you could die. And the people that died broke the rules. How many people that you were in with survived That I was in with oh, I mean a lot a couple of my friends were killed I mean, you know, I know guys that I you know, my personal friend My brother's friend was murdered. My brother's best friend was murdered. I mean, you know a lot of people

I know my friend Greg was murdered in the front of his house My friend Tito was murdered. he killed Jimmy Burke's son. He did Tito the barber. He was murdered in his barber shop. You know, well, yeah, they're either locked up or dead. I think Michael said only one guy on that top 75 money list is still alive other than him. Yeah, crazy, especially his family.

His family was one of the most violent families. They were killing each other. They had more wars than I could have. Chase, yeah, I wonder why. That had more wars than I could ever forget it. I wonder why, that's weird. It just was all internal. I don't know, all over, you know, ego. Who wanted to be the boss?

Listen, the mob runs on greed and ego. Yeah, you were probably dealing with a lot of that, right? Well, all the time. Especially the way you grew up under the boss. Greed, ego, and self-centeredness You seem like a really changed guy now though I am you know, it's funny because an FBI agent once told me that me you and your father are Social pets and I don't know what he meant wait. I I said what the fuck social pit He said no not a psychopath you you and your father are social pets and then I looked it up and I said, damn, he's right.

I was a sociopath, but not now. I mean, I still have a couple of the traits left. I'm working on, like those are my character defects. Yeah, but you know, I could never live that life. I'm definitely not the same person, you know, without a doubt, you know, like I look at my son, I can never do the things with my son that my father did with me, you know, definitely not the same person.

When did you know the FBI was on you? Did they call you or someone beforehand before the arrest? For the last time, for the murder? Yeah. No, so what happened was I had to go, I had to go to a wedding that night. So I lived out in Long Island in Comack and I had to drive to Queens to pick up my son.

So I drove to Queens and he wasn't home yet. So there's a park bench in front of his house and it's funny. So I go sit on the bench, it's a nice June day out, sun's shining and I'm laying on the bench with my eyes closed like my eyes back on this and all of a sudden I hear, don't move you motherfucker. And I open up my eyes and there's a gun right in my nose.

And I look right and then the next thing I know it's someone who was behind me and they literally lifted me up off the bench and they handcuffed me and it was about eight of them. I didn't even hear them, they were like Indians. I didn't hear nothing. I didn't hear a footstep, I heard nothing. And the next thing I knew they threw me in a van

and they were screaming at me, we got you now, you murderer, you're gonna spend the rest of your life in prison, and ba-ba-ba-ba, and that was it. My whole life flashed in front of my face at that point, because I'm in this van and the guys are screaming at me, I'm handcuffed, and I'm, oh my God, and they took me and then I got out on bail

and then they put me on house arrest and then about a year later you know things happened and I decided to throw in the towel and I cooperated. Wow they arrested your dad too for that one? No he was passed away. He passed away he passed away in 99 yeah they just arrested me and the shooter this guy skinny dom pezzonia he was a captain in the Gambino family he He was actually the one that that did the shooting How did they find out so late like what happened other people cooperated that knew about it and led them to us So yeah, damn, but they had no evidence. It was just their word Yeah, they had no evidence. There's no physical evidence. No because the body disappeared. They never found the body They never had a murder weapon, but they had um

They had enough they had enough to indict us. I mean, yeah, they had enough. So just a witness testimony is enough. Yeah, in the Feds, yeah, you don't need a body. Damn, because you could just pay someone off. Circumstantial evidence in the federal courts is good. Wow, so that's why you went with the plea route? Because if you went to trial, you would have got it.

Well, I went to the plea route because my co-defendants were sort of like trying to throw me under the bus. You know what I mean? Like I was the last person who would have. I picked him up and drove him somewhere, and then he disappeared. So I had some conversations with some people,

and I had some conversations with some attorneys. And the attorney actually told me, listen, you You're gonna get thrown under the bus here You should call the government damn, you know, and and I didn't couldn't do it, you know, I talk about it all the time I still couldn't do it the next day my wife was driving to work and I told her to call them and tell them I couldn't make wow That was probably the toughest one for you because you had the family the worst the worst I couldn't do it that haunts me sometimes that I cooperated but uh

You know, I think Because I cooperated and I changed, you know, I became a counselor I think I think I'm sort of trying to make up for all the bad. I did last you could say I don't know karma All right. Yeah, damn that's deep Yeah, cuz you were programmed your whole life to never ever do that All the bad I did, I guess you could say, I don't know. Karma, right? Yeah. Damn, that's deep. Yeah, cause you were programmed your whole life to never ever do that. So that must've been the toughest decision

you ever had to make. It was terrible. Yeah, it was tough. It took me a year. I used to pick up the phone and hang it up. Holy crap. I would have the FBI card in my hand and I would pick up the phone and I would hang it up.

Damn. I couldn't do it. I used to get knots in my stomach, sweat. I couldn't do it. And I still couldn't do it. Even when I did do it, I made my wife do it. I couldn't do it. I used to get knots in my stomach, sweat. I couldn't do it. And I still couldn't do it. Even when I did do it, I made my wife do it. I couldn't do it. Because you knew you'd lose your whole friend group,

everything was gone. Yeah, I was giving up everything I knew. And I had a lot of insecurity, because like I said, I had no skills. But at that point, listen, the mob wasn't the same. There was different people out there, different guys running the show. They took everything. When my father died, they really took everything from us. They weren't looking out for me and I was done. At that point, I was done.

Like, I wasn't willing to spend the rest of my life in prison anymore for the mob. I wasn't willing to do it. If my father was alive or his partner Tony Lee was alive, I would have never cooperated. Because then I would have implemented them in a murder and I would have never done that. But the cards fell the way they fell. John Gotti was dead, my old man was dead, Tony Lee was dead.

And I was done. I was done. I was done with that whole lifestyle. I was done spending time in prison and that was it. What happened to Tony? Tony Lee passed away, he had cancer, he died. Oh wow. He died in 93 before I got arrested in 95.

He died two years before I got arrested. Damn, and that was your dad's right hand man? Yeah, they were partners from childhood. That's cool man. Not a lot of guys come in together and last the whole way through. If they made 10 cents they got a nickel each damn. Yeah, it was it was like a strong enough. It was like a brother bond It was crazy the partnership they had like nobody has a partnership like that. I've never seen that in the mob

Maybe Goddy and Sammy No guiding and they were never part. It's not they weren't no They were just they would you know if Sammy was the on the bus They were probably partners in some things weren't? No, they were just, they were, you know, if Sammy was the young, the boss, they were probably partners in some things, but not partners in everything. Got it. You know, I think, I think probably Angelo Clark at one time was John Gotti's partner partner.

But other than that, there's not really anybody I knew that had a partnership like Tony, Liam, Fatty Andy. I mean. That's probably why it was a successful. Yeah, oh yeah, very. Yeah, they had a big crew. They had a big crew, yeah. They were partners from when they were teenagers.

Yeah, that's crazy, the trust and the loyalty there. They used to tease each other. You were a window breaker before you became my partner. Oh, I love that, man. So was your grandfather in the mafia? No, you know, that's the funny thing. Nobody in my family was in the mob except my father. Oh, wow.

You know, he never had a, so my grandfather immigrated from Naples, Italy in like the turn of the century. And my grandmother was a teenager when they got married. My father was the youngest child out of eight. My grandfather in 1932 got hit by a trolley car. Damn. And died.

And my father was only six. Holy crap. At the time of my grandfather's death, my father's best friends were this guy Lenny, the donor, and Larry Abendando. Larry's father was the Dasher, and Lenny's uncle was Happy Mayoni. They were both members of Murder Incorporated.

I'm sure you know about Murder Incorporated. They all got the electric chair with Lepke and Sink Sink. Holy crap. So they became his father figures, these mob guys, because his friends, family were all mobbed up. The Maiones were all mobbed up, the Abedandos, these people were all mobbed up. So they became like his father figures and when he became a teenager, he started working for them.

So, and he used to tell me he's the way he is because he had no father. Wow, that's deep. Yeah, because a young kid is so impressionable, right? Because my uncles, his brothers, all were legitimate guys. Oh, none of them joined? My uncle, no. They all worked, my two uncles worked for the transit.

One of my uncles, I mean, he made money legally within the transit. He was shy like a money, you know, booking bets, but he was legitimately, they all were two veterans. My three uncles, totally all legit. And my mother's family too, all legit. Damn, that is interesting. Jean, Jean, my cousin Jean, his grandfather,

my uncle Junior, he was legit but not legit. He was a bus driver but he was a criminal. Jean is funny man, because with his mouth, the fact that he survived, because he just says whatever he says. His grandfather was my mother's kid brother. He's my second cousin. Were you mentoring him through the the through the game. No, you know, I was away when I went away He was a kid when I went away. He was only 12 Wow when I went away in

95 96 he was 12. He was a year younger than my son here. My son are very tight. They grew up together So when I went away, he was 12 When I came out eight nine years later, he he was in the mob like he was already made. No, he was 12. When I came out eight, nine years later, he was in the mob like he was already made. No, he was just running around with the with the with the banana family. And, and so I never really mentored him or anything. I was away them formative years. You know, but when I came out, I ran into him, I was went to get a haircut in Howard Beach. And he was in

the manicure. And you know And he paid for my haircut. But yeah, so I missed out on that. Wow. That education that he got. Did your kid wanna join? Whether he wanted to join or not, I made sure that that wasn't never gonna happen. You know what I mean?

He grew up, the first 21 years of my son's life, either I was in jail, He grew up, the first 21 years of my son's life, either I was in jail and my father was in jail, or we were both in jail at the same time. The first 21 years of his life, he literally grew up in a prison visiting room, and I made it a point that he was never gonna wind up in the shoes I was in. And I used to tell him,

I'm not gonna make the same mistakes as as grandpa, you know, I was it made sure he worked I always got him jobs his mother made sure you know, I mean he got in trouble, you know Like a kid, you know normal kid trouble, you know principal's office Yeah, you know stuff like that. I had to bail him out of a few things You know, I had a bail him out of a couple of cin man yeah but no but he's a hard worker he works now you know he he works he works I made sure of that nice yeah that's important man Anthony it's been cool what do you got coming up next and where people find you well they could find me on reform gangsters on my podcast they could find me at Anthony

Ruggiano jr. com on my website I got a patreon page I'm gonna be on August 11th at 10 o'clock on the history channel I'm gonna be on August 11th at 10 o'clock on the history channel I'm gonna be on gangland that's a show that's coming out I have a few things going I'm gonna be back out in Arizona with Sammy I have some mob tours that are really cool on my patreon page if people want to check them out and that's it tell you subscribe we'll link below next come on man Oh my pleasure