Digital Social Hour - Why Clarity in Messaging Builds Billion-Dollar Brands | Donald Miller DSH #1358

Episode Date: May 1, 2025

Why does clarity in messaging matter? 🤔 Discover how it can transform businesses into billion-dollar brands! 🚀 Join Sean Kelly on the Digital Social Hour as he sits down with Donald Miller for an unfiltered conversation packed with valuable insights on crafting sound bites, storytelling strategies, and why simplicity always wins. 🎯 Donald shares incredible examples of how clear messaging creates impact, from political campaigns to business branding. They discuss how obsession, not just talent, drives success and why words are the most powerful tool you have to shape your future. 🧠✨ Plus, hear Donald’s take on building confidence, overcoming challenges, and crafting taglines that resonate. This episode isn’t just about messaging—it’s about personal growth, overcoming insecurities, and finding meaning in what you do. 💡 Don’t miss out on this game-changing discussion! Watch now and subscribe for more insider secrets. 📺 Hit that subscribe button and stay tuned for more eye-opening stories on the Digital Social Hour with Sean Kelly! 🚀CHAPTERS:00:00 - Intro00:50 - Donald’s Car Wash Convention Speech01:50 - Evolution of Storytelling04:58 - Therasage Discount Offer07:39 - Overcoming Insecurities11:41 - Building Confidence14:15 - Importance of Clarity17:04 - Podcast Problem Solving18:50 - Southwest Airlines PR Crisis20:25 - Impact of Words24:10 - Success: Gifted vs. Obsessed26:34 - Starting Your Podcast Journey28:35 - Advantages of Early Wins33:18 - The Art of Name Dropping37:45 - Understanding Agoraphobia41:11 - Finding Meaning43:18 - Redemptive View on Suffering51:44 - Breaking Victim Mentality51:53 - Mindsets: Victim, Villain, Hero, God55:59 - Outro APPLY TO BE ON THE PODCAST: https://www.digitalsocialhour.com/application BUSINESS INQUIRIES/SPONSORS: [e-mail] GUEST: Donald Miller https://www.instagram.com/hair.soupp SPONSORS: AIRES TECH: https://airestech.com/ THERASAGE: https://therasage.com/ YAY NUTS: https://yaynuts.com/ LISTEN ON: Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/digital-social-hour/id1676846015 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/5Jn7LXarRlI8Hc0GtTn759 Sean Kelly Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/seanmikekelly/ The views and opinions expressed by guests on Digital Social Hour are solely those of the individuals appearing on the podcast and do not necessarily reflect the views or opinions of the host, Sean Kelly, or the Digital Social Hour team. While we encourage open and honest conversations, Sean Kelly is not legally responsible for any statements, claims, or opinions made by guests during the show. Listeners are encouraged to form their own opinions and consult professionals for advice where appropriate. Content on this podcast is for entertainment and informational purposes only and should not be considered legal, medical, financial, or professional advice.#contentmarketing #clientacquisition #effectivemessaging #personalbranding #brandingclarity

But you know went off for a few years and figured out how to write and put together a book I don't know if I was naturally gifted. I was naturally obsessed You know, I'm curious about how much People who succeed are gifted or are they just obsessed? Hmm Like do they actually have an obsessive drive which which makes it look like they're gifted it look like they're gifted. Okay guys, got Donald Miller out here in Las Vegas. You ready for a fun week?

I am. Yeah. I'm here for Grateful Dead and a few podcasts. Yep. Grateful Dead, doing a couple of podcasts, speaking at a car wash convention. So yeah, it'll be busy. Vegas has all sorts of conventions. That's the first time I'm hearing of a car wash one. Hell, you guys have like the biggest conventions

in the world. That's the good part about living here. Yeah. You don't have to go anywhere. And all those speakers come in to speak at those conventions and they stop by your office, I'm sure. Exactly. Yeah, it's a win-win, man.

But yeah, what are you gonna talk about there? Storytelling? I'm gonna talk about, yeah, I mean, my stick is clarify your message so customers engage. So I'm going to talk about how most businesses are missing out on sound bites and how you need to have sound bites. No matter what you do, you need to have sound bites that you repeat in order to sort of help people understand why you're valuable to them. And it doesn't matter what business you repeat in order to sort of help people understand why you're valuable to them.

Yeah. And it doesn't matter what business you're in. It doesn't matter if you're running for office. I mean, honestly, it's true just as a human being, you know, that we value people who can solve problems. Yeah. And if you, if you know what problem you can solve and you're able to articulate it, the perceived value of you goes up as a person. So, you know, it's true in business, it's true in leadership, it's true in just being a person.

Have you seen the formula for a successful storytelling change over time? Cause I remember when I was a kid, those commercials, I still remember the jingle to some of those. Yeah. And now I feel like the commercials these days, I forget about them instantly. Yeah, we're kind of broken away from,

with all the noise, I'm amazed at how bad advertising is. It's awful. It's a waste of money. Most of it. I was watching, are you a football fan? Yeah, who do you like? Giants, I grew up in Jersey.

Oh, okay. I'm a Seahawks fan. So I'm watching the Seahawks one day and in the end zone of the football field Is our painted the words crucial catch have you seen this? No, I haven't seen that so a crucial catch and there's three colorful bars It reminded me of the old like Polaroid Kodak logo. Mm-hmm. And I thought well, they must be advertising line of cameras You know crucial catch they catch the picture or whatever two weeks later, I find out that is a cancer awareness campaign.

And it was, you know, crucial catch, intercept cancer, all this kind of stuff. That is a great example of an absolute waste of money because, you know, you sit around with some ad execs and they say, oh, you know, what could be more crucial than catching cancer early? Oh, you know, a catch ball on the end zone is crucial. Oh, what if we say crucial catch? And nobody was in the room when they had that conversation. So they ended up shipping just confusing language

and you see it over and over and you see the ramifications of it. I mean, you know, if they would have just put, promise us you'll get screened for cancer in the end zone. They just saved a lot more lives. But there's almost like this necessity that people feel to be sophisticated or clever or cute.

And it costs them. It costs them. The reality is you've got to be able to articulate your, the value that you offer, you know, on the open market, if you will, really, really quickly and in a soundbite because nobody thinks in a nuanced way anymore, uh, at least not when they're encountering a brand or a leader or something like that, people think in soundbites. I mean, let me give you an example, Sean. Um, you know, I realize politics is a provocative place to go, but it's a

great place to study effective messaging, ineffective messaging. Yeah. It's somebody like Jeb Bush, who wrote a book on immigration. He wrote a book on education and he's at 3% in the polls. Donald Trump's immigration policy was three words, build a wall. I think it's elected president. You see what I'm saying? Yeah.

Yeah. Simple. It's, it's, it's, it's simple. There's no nuance to it. The brain has to burn calories in order to process information. And the more calories you make people burn upfront, the less likely they will be to pay attention to you. Yeah.

Now, after they get through what we call the curiosity phase, they'll pay a lot more attention to you and they'll be willing to burn calories, but you got to earn that and you earn it with, you know, with sound bites, at least in the, in the field that I'm in, which is helping people clarify their message. You burn some serious calories using your brain. I don't know. Six to 800 calories a day. Yeah.

20% of your calorie expenditure every day is burned by your super computer. And people don't even know that. No, I'm a chusk. The tri-light from Therisage is no joke. Medical grade red and near infrared light with 3 frequencies per light, deep healing, real results and totally portable, it's legit. Photo-bio modulation tech in a flexible on-body panel. This is the Tri-Lite from Therisage and it's next level red light therapy. It's got 118 high powered polychromatic lights, each delivering

3 healing frequencies, red and near infrared from 580 to 980 nanometers. Optimal penetration, enhanced energy, skin rejuvenation, pain relief, better performance, quicker recovery, and so much more. TheraSage has been leading the game for over 25 years and this panel is FDA listed and USB powered. Ultra soft and flexible and ultra portable. On body red light therapy I use daily and I take it everywhere I travel. This is the TheraO3 Ozone Module from Therasoge. It's a portable ozone and negative ion therapy in one. It boosts oxygen, clears and sanitizes the air

and even helps your mood. It's a total game changer at home or on the go. This little device is the TheraO3 Ozone Module by Therasoge and it's one of my favorite wellness tools. In the sauna, it boosts ozone absorption on the go. This little device is the TheraO3 Ozone module by Therasage and it's one of my favorite wellness tools. In the sauna it boosts ozone absorption through your skin up to 10 times, oxygenating your blood and supporting deep detox. Outside the sauna it purifies the air, killing germs, bacteria, viruses and mold and it improves mood and sleep with negative ion therapy. It's compact, rechargeable, and perfect for travel,

planes, offices, hotel rooms, you name it. It's like carrying clean energy wherever you go. This is the Thera H2Go from Therasage, the only bottle with molecular hydrogen structured water and red light in one. It hydrates, energizes, and detoxes water upgraded. The Thera H2Go from Therasage isn't just a water bottle. It's next level hydration.

It infuses your water with molecular hydrogen, one of the most powerful antioxidants out there. That means less oxidative stress, more energy and faster recovery. But here's what makes it stand out. It's the only bottle that also structures your water and adds red light to supercharge it. It's sleek, portable and honestly,

I don't go anywhere without it. I'm a player and I burn even more because chess, you're burning thousands. Are you good? I'm decent. Really? Good is relative in chess because I'll get humbled real quick if I go to the streets in New York, but if I play any friend of mine, I'll destroy them. Yeah. And you're probably exhausted at the end of the day and all you did was sit there.

Yeah. Podcasting can be tiring too. It can, especially if you haven't forced the conversation. Yeah, certain shows aren't as good. Hopefully this one's not so bad, Sean. But for me, I'll film like six in a row, so by the end of the day, sometimes I'll be like, I just worked out, it feels like I'm exhausted. Yeah, yeah, I feel the same way.

You know, go out on the road, speaking at stuff like this, I'll go home and I don't have any words left. So I only go out once a month, because I have a little girl at home and I have a wife and so. Respect. Yeah. I try to just go one night a month. Oh, it's there a lot. It's not this nice too.

But try to do that. And the reason is just wasted when you get home. Hmm. You know, absolutely wasted. People suck all your energy too. That's true. So balance is big for you then. Yeah, balance is.

I got married at 42, pretty late. And then I became a dad at 49. If I would have got married in my early 20s, I'm not like you, I probably would have messed it all up. Really? Oh, no, there's zero question about it. How so? Why do you think that was?

She's too idealistic, really insecure. Uh, would have married a woman because she made me look good rather than because I loved her. Uh, codependent. You want a laundry list? That's a lot of stuff, man. I love honesty. A food addict? Really. Oh yeah.

Fast food or unhealthy stuff. Oh yeah, whatever, whatever I can get good at. You know, so I had to clean up my act a little bit. Damn. Yeah. How did you work through the, what was the first thing you said about confidence or something?

Insecurity. Insecurity, yeah. It's a great question. I like this. I like this conversation. I always have to talk about messaging, but I like talking about other stuff more. You know, the best thing you can do if you have insecurities is figure out some place that you can win. You know, I best thing you can do if you have insecurities is figure out some, some place that you can win.

You know, I don't, I don't know that I'm not a psychologist, but I don't know that you can look in the mirror and, and get yourself to be confident. I think it requires a few, a few wins. And so you find chess or you find basketball or you find music or you find podcasting, you find, you know, whatever it is, just a place that you can excel. For me, that was writing. I figured out I'm a decent writer, so I started writing books and got some confidence there.

And then honestly, man, I lost weight, got into a little bit better shape. And, you know, they say confidence comes from the inside. I'm not quite sure. I agree with you. I actually- Do you really? Yeah, I just saw an amazing podcast.

It's called Diary of a CEO. Yeah. Yeah, it's been a great show, but this FBI agent just came on, forget his name, but he was talking about exactly what you just said to build confidence. Ever thought about how much EMF and radiation your body is exposed to every single day? From smartphones to wi-fi, modern technology never stops emitting invisible stressors that

could disrupt brain function, hormone balance, and cellular health. That's where Aries comes in, the only scientifically validated solution designed to help your body adapt to today's technology. It's trusted by elite athletes used by the UFC, WWE, Canada basketball, and the Minnesota Timberwolves. It's backed by science, 100 plus scientists, and 40 plus institutions confirm its effectiveness. It's patented, peer-reviewed, clinically proven, and publicly traded Wi-Fi is the most tested, researched, and validated EMF solution on the market. Upgrade your biology to keep up with modern technology. Protect yourself with Aries today. Click the link below to learn more. You gotta master one thing first.

Yes. And then once you have confidence in that area, you can apply it to multiple areas. Yeah. But a lot of people give this advice of just faking it, but with confidence, really hard to do that. I don't think you should fake it. I think you should be honest,

but I think you should try your ass off and master something. I like the idea of trying to figure out, it may not happen but it's beneficial exercise nonetheless, try to become the world's best at something. So you got to find your little micro niche. If you want a controlling idea or a tagline for your business, I'm going to kick anybody's ass. I'm going to come up with a really, really good one. And probably five, six out of 10 times of, you know, I'm going to beat you. And to me, that's a really nerdy, weird thing to be good at, but it's, I hang my hat on it sometimes and it's given me a lot of, you know, it's given

me a lot of confidence. Yeah. I realize we should all be like children, child of God and are unconditionally we've got, but human beings aren't like that. And God is, but human beings aren't. So I think the way we view ourselves, like just get really, really good at something. Absolutely. And especially if it's something that serves other people in some way.

I think it's, it's a confidence builder. Yeah. Which taglines are you the most proud of? You've made a lot, but... Just came back from national security. Their tagline was like, defend our freedom, protect the future or whatever. And I think we're going to ship, intelligence prepares us to win. Because they've got to go into Congress and they've got to present,

they've got to get an authorization called 702 from Congress, which authorizes national security to billions and billions of dollars. They got to do this every fricking year. So to walk into the room and say, Hey, you know, the reason we're talking about national security is because intelligence prepares us when the first thing that it does is it says, here's what we deliver. The second thing that it says is if we don't deliver this, we're going to lose. So that's a really fricking good tagline.

What you wanna do with any organization or any person, or if you're a leader, or even with your podcast, you wanna associate what you offer with the survival of the person paying attention to. Wow. And if you, cause human beings are designed to survive. They're, that's the number one thing that they think about all day long is how, how am I going to thrive?

How am I going to survive? Am I going to protect my assets? Am I going to gain assets? How am I going to, you know, gain status or associate with, with somebody who might, you know, it's, it's, it all sounds fairly utilitarian, but, but it's true. And so if you want to sell a product or have people respect and admire you, be known for helping other people survive in some way.

Yeah. And the way I say it is become a survival asset. You know, the reason we're attracted to, I just met your lovely fiance. I hate to say it, but the reason you're attracted to her is because she's a survival asset in some way. She's a good friend, she's a nurturer, she makes you laugh, she calms you down, she eases anxiety, she's a good hang. Same thing with you, right? She's looking at you going, that dude probably is going to be a good dad someday. He's got a stable mind, he didn't blow his temper. You see what I'm saying? Yeah.

We think love is unconditional, it's very conditional. And by the way, isn't it very loving of you to be a good survival asset for her? Like that's a very other centered thing to do. So it's not like we're manipulating people, we wanna be a survival asset. So, one of the things that I do is I go into companies and pretty quickly try to figure out

what do you offer that's helping people survive and then how do we articulate that in the form of a tagline or a controlling idea or a one-liner landing page copy, things like that. And it's a fun, it's like, it's not playing chess, it's like doing a crossword puzzle. It feels like you're just kind of figuring out a puzzle. Yeah, I feel like the biggest brands are really good at that.

They're really good at the psychology aspect. They are, you know, if you have a really big brand like Coca-Cola or Nike, you can afford to be more vague and elusive. Most small businesses try to do that and they fail because we all know what a Coca-Cola is. We've all tasted it. Shout out to Yay Nuts, today's sponsor. If you're looking for a snack that's bold, crunchy, and packed with flavor, say Ye to Ye Nuts.

The deliciously addictive nuts that bring the party to your taste buds. From almonds to cashews, every bite is a flavor adventure. No junk, no fillers, just straight up awesome. The next time you're craving a snack, don't just go nuts, Ye Nuts. Available now in stores at yehnuts.com. We all know what Nike shoes are.

If you have a small brand though, you've got to be, you have to be much, much more clear. And so I don't like using big brand examples very much because they, you know, they get to cheat the system a little bit. Yeah, they got time on their side. They've been around for been around a long time. You know, there's a there's you'll love this

There's a billboard outside my office and it says sitting the fence question mark call a cowboy That's it. Mm-hmm It's got a picture of a cowboy. And by the way, the cowboy cowboy is spelled with a K And I'm like, that's a giant waste of money So, you know, I do little do diligence I find out they build fences, right? of money. So I, you know, I do a little due diligence. I find out they build fences, right? And you know, you could sit there, you know, people are buzzing by this thing. It's 60 miles an hour.

That's a wasted billboard. They spent money, but if they would have just said, hire a cowboy to build your fence, they were sold a lot more fences. And so, you know, clarity is key. It's more important than being clever. Have you ever seen a billboard work? Like has one worked on you? Yeah, well, I don't know if it worked on me,

but it's the most effective billboard I've ever seen. Probably will never be topped. It just says gun show. Gun show, March 7th. And it's like bright yellow. Like, there you go. So for a conference, it's, yeah. Yeah, that's extremely effective.

I've seen that one actually, I think. Yeah. Yeah, that's extremely effective. I've seen that one actually I think. Yeah. There's a lot in Vegas, man. We got them everywhere. Yeah, and most of them are waste. Most of them I don't remember. Yeah. Sometimes it'll be like a magic show that I want to go to,

but it's already in my head that I saw the guy somewhere else. So it's more like a reminder. You guys go to shows? Yeah, you know, being in Vegas, I feel like it's part of the culture here to go to shows. What problem do you think your podcast solves? I'm just curious. Like if you could articulate it.

Yeah, that's great. I said mostly kind of entertainment or entertainment. So I have to sprinkle that in to get views, but I do want to help people. Yeah. So, uh, like it's an education podcast. I want to educate people. And is there a specific area or self development? Chris Williamson, you know, he's, yeah, that's a great show.

Great show. Yeah. He's, yeah, he's great. And, you know, that's kind of how he angles himself. Huberman sort of owns the health, health protocol. I mean, Athea owns longevity. Dr. Becky owns, uh, parenting.

So I battle with this. Do I want to niche down more like that? Or should I stay as broad as possible? I mean, what you're doing is working. So it's hard to argue with you, but yeah. But usually if you're getting started, you'd want to niche down. You'd want to own, I call it owning a problem. Right. So if you can own a problem, uh, you get, you know, if you can own like how to get

a date or how to, how to train a dog or how to, you know, you can become the world's leader in that as long as you don't talk about anything else for a long time. I agree. Cause I started niched actually. What'd you start? It was a marketing business podcast. Oh, okay.

But you can only talk about making money so much before it gets boring. Yeah. So I feel like a hundred episodes of that. I was like, let me talk about other aspects of life. There's more to life than just making money. Yeah. episodes of that I was like let me talk about other aspects of life there's more to life than just making money. Yeah we've actually tried a podcast about things that succeeded kind of analyzing why they succeeded and we've seen the

viewers uptick when we actually niche down even further into just the message. Wow. So what message did they use to succeed or what message did we just did one on Southwest Airlines you you know fumbling the They're gonna start charging for basalt up, you know, I was a big PR nightmare for them. Yeah big PR nightmare So we actually we talked about that and I expected it will do better since we niche down a little bit further I'm curious though whether or not that that test out to be true. Yeah, and they're also going to arrange seating I think that was a big deal. right? I'm all for it. You like it?

Yeah, cause you know, you're like that thing in your stomach of like, am I going to be sitting in the middle seat? I'm over that. I've been C-59 on some of those Southwest flexes. I have too, Mirian. It's the worst feeling. And I'm 6'6". I love it when there's two big guys

and I'll always joke like, hey, can I get in there? And they're like, are you serious? I'm joking. Yeah Yeah, being next to a big guy on a plane is not a fun. No, no, but yeah Southwest We'll see how they pivot from that. I always like seeing how companies kind of pivot from PR nightmares I gave him some advice on the podcast. Oh you did? Yeah, what'd you say? I said you need to Well, first of all, you can only mitigate the damage. It's not gonna be a positive. This isn't gonna be a win, but you can mitigate the damage.

And so my recommendation to the CEO was you need to use the line, we are being forced to upgrade the Southwest customer experience. Because of market demands and competition in the market, that sort You know, because of market demands and competition in the market, that sort of thing, we've got to pivot our strategy. So I like the word forced, because it says this isn't something we wanna do,

but then we're gonna charge you more money, but you're gonna get an upgraded experience. Yeah. And just mitigate the damage as much as you can. We'll see if he listens to the podcast. We'll see. It's crazy how important certain words are and how they make a difference.

Words are everything. Words build your whole world. Just one little word added in that sentence can change it. Yep. Words, the words that everybody listening right now, the words that come out of your mouth will build your future more than anything else.

Even more than what you do. Wow. Even more than who you know. The words that come out of your mouth will build your future. And you should choose them very carefully. And I think there's some rules. Don't be too self-deprecating. That was a coping mechanism for me for years. It was just very self-deprecating. That was a coping mechanism for me for years. It was just very self-deprecating.

Being hard on yourself? Yeah, I mean, hard on myself, but also just like kind of making fun of myself as a way to not come off as a threat. And I think it cost me. Because you started manifesting it, right? Yeah, I started manifesting it and people stopped taking me seriously.

Right. You know? Yeah, you gotta be careful what you're saying. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. A little bit. Yeah, I could definitely relate to that. I used to be very pessimistic.

Did you really? What happened? Did you read some books? That I was more like a podcast and audio books and YouTube videos. Yeah. Like books helped, but environment, honestly, like you just got away from some of the people who are negative. I helped the most because I grew up in a very pessimistic environment

Can you tell me a little bit about well just curious like parents got divorced Yeah, they were both so negative about bitter about how it ended. I guess I've never let go of it Yeah, I'm around that seeing both sides every day. Yes siblings. No, holy child. Oh, wow. Yeah, that was huge for you Yeah, that probably played a role in it too. How old were you? I was a fourth grade when they got divorced. Oh. So I had to deal with that on my own. Man, do you have a, can I just be frank? Do you have a chip on your shoulder?

I did. A lot of people who are, that's the reason I'm here, man. Yeah. A lot of people are successful, they have a chip on their shoulder. Yeah, that used to fuel me a lot. It's not as strong as it used to be. What was the state, what was the chip about? Like for me, for me, the chip was, um, we grew up very, very poor.

My dad left when I was a kid, so I never really knew him. Yeah. Chased him down and met him when I was 35. We got to dive into that later. Yeah, maybe. And, um, uh, it was, uh, I'm going to prove to the world that I'm not white trash. And that would, that fueled a lot of the drive. Yeah. So mine was, we grew a lot of the drive. Yeah.

So mine was, we grew up middle-class, so I don't think finances was the main reason, but mainly proving people wrong. I got bullied a lot. I think even my own parents kind of doubted if I would be successful or not. Cause I didn't go the academic route. Yeah. And that was all my mother knew coming from China, coming from best colleges. So that was a big contentious point.

So I don't even think, like she watches every episode, I don't even think she believed in me at a certain point. She'll say this herself, you know, like we used to argue all the time about grades and everything. I think, yeah. A similar experience. I published my first book without telling my family.

Wow. And I brought it home for Christmas. What was their reaction? They were shocked. They were like disbelief. They didn't even know you were a writer. No clue. Wow.

And it was totally disbelief. Like I can remember the eerie feel in the room of just like, what is this? Some sort of con game. A prank. Yeah, some sort of prank. Wow. You were just ashamed of talking about. A prank. Yeah, some sort of prank. Wow. So you were just ashamed of talking about?

No, because from their perspective, I was an idiot. And because mostly because I was an idiot. But, you know, went off for a few years and figured out how to write and put together a book. Were you naturally gifted, you'd say, when it came to writing? I don't know if I was naturally gifted. I was naturally obsessed.

You know, I'm curious about how much people who succeed are gifted or are they just obsessed? Like do they actually have an obsessive drive which makes it look like they're gifted? Have you seen the Kobe Bryant documentary? No, I saw the MJ one, not the Kobe one. MJ one was incredible. Yeah, that was a good one. But if I saw the MJ one, not the Kobe one. MJ one was incredible. Yeah, that was a good one.

But if you watch the Kobe one, I'm sure they're similar, but his dad played basketball in Italy. He grew up in Italy. And you can see him on the side of the court during professional basketball games, and he's dribbling the ball, and he's watching his dad.

And you see that obsession being born in him at a really early age. And then, you know, it's a shame that like, you know, at the height of his career, people would say, we so gifted. It's sort of insulting. Yeah. There's a guy, you know, have you ever heard of a guy named Henry Cloud? No, he's a guy out in a room. He wrote a book called boundaries.

It sold like millions of copies, like 10 million. I even heard the term boundaries. Yeah. Henry coined that term. Wow. Yep. And coined that term. Wow. Yep. And I've gotten to know him a little bit because he lives in Nashville and he's, he is the most sort of savant like person I've ever known when it comes to

relationships. Like he, like you can be struggling with something and he'll just go, well, you know, I was dating a gal and we were just having some trouble. And I told him like maybe 30 seconds. And he said, did her father die when she was 13? I kid you not, dude, I kid you not. And I'm like, how the hell did you know that? He's like, well, this, this and that.

And I used to say he was gifted. And then I realized what actually happened was in his late 20s, he got a radio show and he started taking calls on the radio show. And he did this for like, I don't know, 15 years. Every day he's taking five and six calls, figuring out people's relationships and giving them some really good, healthy advice.

That wasn't a gift that was earned. You know, he, he worked through that and he got really, really good at it. And if you say, okay, Dom, why are you good at messaging? I've written about 15 books. So how many hours is that trying to figure out how to say something succinctly? And so is it a gift or is it something that you just got obsessed with? You know, you're on track to 15 20 years from now. Maybe be one of the world's greatest interviewers, you know Maybe that's not where you go. Yeah, but you're certainly on track to get there. It's the goal of mine Yeah, six interviews a day. Come on. Yeah, you know, you're gonna be you're gonna be asking very very

intuitively thoughtful questions and you you might even say to yourself Well, you know, I guess I just have a knack. You don't have a knack, you put in thousands and thousands of hours. I saw how I started, it was awful. Yeah, my first three episodes, trash. Really, did you throw them out or did you keep them? No, I'm gonna keep them just to look back and laugh on it.

Were you nervous or what? Nervous, not confident. I was always an introvert. Yeah. It just wasn't natural for me to talk to people. Yeah. I had to rely on co-hosts. Why podcasts? How did that happen?

Yeah. It's interesting. Like I sold a company and I had money. Um, you sold a company. Yeah. Well, you did prove your parents wrong. Didn't you? Yeah.

What co- just real quick. I'm curious. Yeah. Crypto space, right time. Oh, gotcha. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

I'm right place. It was during the bull market. It was perfect divine timing. Like if I waited, it wouldn't have been worth it. Did you do the programming yourself or? It was a crypto marketing agency. So I just saw companies get in the space. Got it.

Yeah. Okay. So it was great timing. So I have all this money and just I'm depressed. It's crazy. Like I'm literally sleeping 12 hours a day, waking up. Depressed because you thought you got everything that life could give you and it wasn't enough.

Yeah. That's pretty much that's a gift. I had a house, I had an amazing girlfriend, everything I ever wanted growing up, I had it and that's a, it's a luxury to realize that. Yeah. So a lot of people would chase that their whole life and never quite get it. So they never actually get to realize it's empty. Yeah.

Yeah. And then there's, so what happened in the secondary pursuit? Like they realized that was empty. You didn't kill yourself. You didn't kill myself. Did you think about it? No, but my family has a history of it. Okay.

Grandfather father both did it and my, uh, we don't have to get two personal, but other family members dealt with it. Well, I'm sorry about that. Yeah. It's crazy. So I knew that could be a possibility. So I was really aware of that. Yeah.

Um, but yeah, months of that went on and then started the podcast. Did that help? Helped so much. This is a form of therapy. It is. Do you know, um, I interviewed Pete Carroll, Seattle Seahawks, and he said, he said something interesting in the interview. He said, um, he said, Donna had the luxury of winning early.

I've never heard anybody say that. What do you mean you had the luxury of winning early? He said, well, you know, as an athlete, so I won some contests and realized there's a diminishing return on success. And he said, when I started helping other people win, there was no diminishing return. He said, it's only gotten better. Well, it's only gotten more and more fulfilling

when I use my abilities to help somebody else win. And he said, that's why I'm a coach. Because it's just more fulfilling and just gets better. He's coming here. I love that. That's cool. Yeah. He's going to win here too. Yeah. I hope so. We suck right now. He'll turn around.

Yeah. We've had a few rough seasons, but no, that's so true. And that might play into why a podcast, because I'm seeing the messages I'm getting now and all the people coming up to me and it feels amazing. Yeah, man. It does. And kind of beating your own chest doesn't do it. I don't know anybody. Do you know any narcissists who are actually happy?

That's a good ask question. Narcissists that are happy? No. I know a lot who are driven. I know a lot who are famous and successful. Well, there's a lot of entrepreneurs that are narcissists. CEOs, I think way higher than normal. They did studies on this.

I think I have some of those traits by the way. Yeah. You probably do too. Well, yeah, I've taken the test. I mean, not the narcissistic personality. So, I mean, that's crazy. No, that's not terrible, but I've taken the dark triad test. The one where he has takes a 60 out of a hundred. Okay.

I haven't taken that. I bet you, I bet you. I think, you know, I, I heard George W. Bush get interviewed once and somebody said, you know, are you a narcissist? And he goes, well, you kind of have to be if you think, if you think you deserve to be president. I was like, that's a really nice, honest way of answering that. It's a very non narcissistic way to answer that question, by the way. I can see it though.

Yeah, but you have to, you know, why should you have a podcast? You know, and so it's, I think it's a, it's a, you know, who am I to write a book? Literally, I'm going to sit down and write 300 pages that I think you should read. I mean, that's gotta be a little bit narcissistic. Yeah. Right? But at the same time, I think you should read it. And I think, and when other people read it, I think they should read it too. So I don't know, I'm always asking myself.

It's an interesting one. It's a very interesting one. It's portrayed so negatively to be a narcissist. Yeah, but I think the belief that you can do something, the sort of obsessive delusional idea that you could build a company or something like that, or walk into the national security and say, here's how I think you ought to talk about, you know, what you guys do. And in a room filled with people who are infinitely smarter than you are, you know,

there's gotta be some sort of like little bitty narcissistic thing going on there. Do you find your ego coming up once in a while? Like you got to keep it in check. I find my ego coming up, but it's in a negative way. I don't find it coming up in that I'm better than you. I name drop. When I feel insecure, I'll name drop a little bit. I do that too.

Or I'll drop my accomplishments. Like I've probably done on this podcast three times. So tonight when I go to bed, I guarantee you Sean, I'll sit there and go, just such a tunnel. Why did you, that's so embarrassing that you did that. Yeah. Um, but I also have learned, you know, as, as I've gotten older to be very, very forgiving and gracious, not forgiving isn't the word accepting.

I accept the fact that I'm, that I am both very selfish and very good. You could be both, you think? Oh, I think, yeah. There's a zero question. Yeah, I think so too. People try to put you in one bucket. Yeah. I love my wife more than any woman on this planet.

And like that chick's hot. So it's like, I don't know. That's just human nature. Yeah, it's human nature. And then like I will die for my daughter. She just means the world to me. But it's like, gosh, she's so freaking annoying right now. Please stop whining.

So I've come to terms with the fact that we're good and we're self-centered. And I don't think we can slowly become less self-centered. I think't think, you know, we can, we can slowly become less self-centered as I think is a good healthy journey, but I don't kick myself around for it anymore. Yeah.

Well, I think that awareness of it is just the first step for most people. Yeah. They're not even there. Yep. Yeah. The name dropping, that's probably my worst habit too. Are you being serious? Yeah.

Cause I'll be in the sauna. I haven't noticed it once. Really? Well, I don't do it on the pod, but like when I'm in the sauna. Like at your gym? Yeah, I just, I don't know, I can't help myself. I'll just start name dropping podcast guests that have been on. People ask me.

See, you and I would make good sauna conversation because I don't notice it. I'm like, oh, what was that dude like? Like I don't see you. They see that as name dropping, but I know I'm doing it. I know I'm doing it. And I'm just... Yeah, it's definitely an insecurity thing for me too, because I know I'm doing it. I know I'm doing it. And I'm just- Yeah, it's definitely an insecurity thing for me too. Cause I got bullied a lot growing up.

Totally. And then you'll meet people who like, you'll talk to them, you'll know them for years. And then you find out like they knew Elvis and they've never talked about him. Yeah. That's just such respect to anybody. Someone that could do that.

Absolutely. I'm like, no way. Yeah. Yeah. Shout out to those people that could hold it in like that. That's just insane to me. It is insane. Have you ever met somebody who is extremely, extremely, extremely accomplished and wants like almost to be invisible?

Like they don't even tout it. Yeah, they don't even have social media. I've had a few on the show. They're just like billionaires. They don't have any social media. They're not touting it at all. And they're cool with it, but it's a rare breed. It is. These days especially because comparison is everywhere these days with social media. Yep. Yep. I

have a buddy named, I'm a clothes guy a little bit because I was always so fat. I couldn't wear anything I wanted. Now I lost weight. I'm like, I'll like try to find clothes that look good. And I got to be friends. I'm. And, um, I got to be friends. I'm going to name drop. I got to be, I'm going to name drop. Somebody know what he even knows about, but his name is Spencer Birch. He created, he was instrumental in creating the double RL brand with Ralph Lauren. I think Spencer makes the absolute best clothes on the planet for me.

Like by far, I got to try this out. Double RL. It's kind of a Western, Western ish brand. Like, I don't know, hipster web Western or something. Like Post Malone and all those guys, they all wear his, oh, go sing about his clothes. That dude could absolutely give a shit whether you know who he is. And he, and like, he means it. He just does not.

It means he just, it's an annoying to him. That's impressive. That you would, that anybody would find out what he does or... You think it was always like that or you think he just got so successful? I don't know. I don't know him well enough. I've only, we've fished, part of a little fishing group, we go out. I really don't know.

He's, he's probably gonna get pissed cause I'm talking about it. Um, but he's, he's, um, it's more than over himself. I've met a lot of people who are over themselves, which is really, it's really amazing, comforting to meet those people. I think a guy like Spencer is sort of over, uh, over the idea of success kind of period, you know, like he, he's doing it because he's, he's good at it and he likes the way that suit looks, you know, and he's, he's trying to find some like 1920s train uniform conductor and turn it into a modern suit.

That's cool. Tuxedo kind of a thing. He just loves playing that game, but, um, I wonder, you know, I also wonder the opposite, like how many, how many people are really successful because they're driven by sort of narcissistic tendencies. They need to be in front of people, impressing them at all times. And that, that can make you very, very successful. Yeah.

Probably more of those. I think you've what now? I think there's probably more of those in the latter. Yeah, probably so. Yeah. I wonder if you'll ever get to that point where you just stop caring about everything, you're just in your own world.

That would be, you know, a lot of insecurities would have to go away. I love how honest you are. Yeah. I find myself getting, like caring less and less as I get older, actually. Yeah. Like 10 years ago.

And also as you get more successful. Yeah, that could be it too. That definitely could play a role. Because it's not like a dangling carrot anymore. Yeah. But I remember like when someone made comments about my appearance 10 years ago, I would actually take it to heart. Hmm. I would...

I still do that. Oh you do? Yeah, a little bit. Yeah, now I don't. People call me broccoli head. People call me like... Are you serious? And it doesn't mean anything to you? Yeah, I don't care anymore. I think when you just get berated on social media every single day, you kind of get numb to it, you know, cause I have on a lot of good country.

Do you think you have a, an internal locus of control more than an external locus of control and it's maybe shifted? Yeah. It's your identity comes from inside you and who you, who you know you are. I think I I'm knowing myself better and better as time goes on. Is there a therapy involved in that? Tried therapy when I had agoraphobia. What's agoraphobia?

Fear of leaving your house. Are you being serious? Yeah. I couldn't leave my bedroom for a month. Holy crap. I would have a full on panic attack and collapse. That's insane. Crazy.

I thought that would be the rest of my life at a certain point when I was in that phase. And how did you get out of that? So it was from a lawsuit. I thought I was going to lose everything. Somebody sued you. Somebody sued me. I was like 20 at the time, super young, never got taught about any of this stuff. And yeah, that can scare the heck out of you.

Yeah. If it went to trial, I would have been bankrupt. Is it the cybersecurity? It was a TCPA. Have you heard of that one? I want to say. Telephone consumer protection agency. Okay, maybe not.

Basically, every text that your business sends out is a $500 fine if you don't have this check box saying that you could text your customers. And I sent out tens of thousands of texts. So it would have been, yeah, it would have been bankruptcy. And somebody sued you? Somebody sued me, yeah. So what happened was- It's kind of them. They were email were emailing call you and say, Hey man, you need this

box. Yeah. Well, they were emailing my customer service agency and they weren't forwarding me the emails and they eventually just sued because I wasn't responding. And that took you in your room. Took me in my room, dark place and combined that with some Xanax. Ooh, not fun, not fun at all. So it was, was the lawsuit being dismissed or whatever, or whatever?

Yeah. So once it got dismissed, that helped a little bit, but it was still lingering. And then I eventually feel like there's like the devil's out there. I mean, you could get screwed legally quick these days. If you're not prepared mentally and financially, it could ruin you. Yeah. Like so easily too. Yeah. That's why when I see Trump getting sued all the time and he doesn't seem to care, it could ruin you. Yeah. Like so easily too. Yeah.

That's why when I see Trump getting sued all the time and he doesn't seem to care, it's like super impressive to me. I think he cares. I think he's used to it. And I think he has, he knows how to play the game. Yeah. You know, he's got really, really thick skin, but I think he cares. I think nobody, nobody, you know, he's also a corporation, right?

So he's not actually being sued. Right. He's also a corporation, right? So he's not actually being sued. Some entity that he's probably got 700 corporations and one of them can go bankrupt and it won't affect the others, you know, all that sort of stuff. He knows the strategies and he's got some really ferocious lawyers too. He does. But now I realized it's inevitable. Like if you're going to be in business, you're going to get sued. Yeah.

So I didn't know that at the time. Yeah. I get sued about once a year. Yeah. Same. We always settle. We always settle. It's been about one a year for me.

Yeah. Crazy, right? It's absolutely crazy. I'm out here just trying to podcast. It's funny how expensive being successful is. I mean, I'm allocating a budget just for legal now. Are you? I'm at that point where I need to.

What is it? Who would sue you? Who would? Like my previous lawyer sued me. I had to settle with him. Oh, in that case. Yeah, it was crazy. That was a big settle.

How old are you? I'm 28. Jeez, man. It's not fun. When you're 50, who are you going to be? When I'm 50. Here's a question. What is all of this preparing you for?

Yeah, that's deep. Right. What, like, have you ever thought, this is preparing me for something? I think there's something big ahead, man. The trajectory of the show right now is just saying great. Yeah. This is, I mean, the white house is inviting me to start doing interviews there. Like it's getting crazy. It feels like a movie sometimes.

Yeah. I don't know. And by the time I'm 50, that's crazy. Yeah. It comes quicker than you think. Yeah. There's you ever read Victor Frankl? No.

You gotta read, read a book called man's search for meaning. Okay. Victor Frankl was this, um, psychologist. He lived in Vienna. He actually, he actually, I don't know if he knew Sigmund Freud or he contended with Sigmund Freud. Anyway, but he would take his patients who were suicidal and he believed that the cure to a lot of anxiety and depression was actually a sense of meaning. Where Freud was saying man was driven by pleasure.

Like he gets up in the morning and he pursues pleasure. Frankl says no, he pursues pleasure when he can't find meaning. It's how he distracts himself. But what he really wants is meaning. And meaning, Frankl said there's a three-part formula for meaning. One is have a, have a project that you're working on. That be building something, a family, a business, a podcast, which why I asked a question about what did that podcast do for you?

You know, if you're having agoraphobia and you're, you're shut down, you start a podcast, that would be an actual prescription from Victor Franco. Wow. He would say, go start a podcast. Like go serve, go do something. And the second thing was he said, you need to do this in community. So like that fiance of yours, she's better than Xanax. She's better than...

Way better. Yeah, she's better than an antidepressant. Yeah. Like I got married 10 years ago and I'm a different dude. I bet. Different dude. So community is huge. My boys, my fishing group, some of them are here in Vegas.

We're gonna go to a show tonight. And then the third one though is really deep. He said you have to have community, project that you're working on, something that you're building, occupying your time, can't sit around looking at your belly button, you got to do something else. And then he said, I word it this way, he didn't word it this way, but I think this is a more succinct way of wording it, a redemptive

perspective on your suffering. So what he said was you have to figure out how getting sued is a good thing. And he came up, he didn't come up with that theory. He solidified the theory in the concentration camps. Really? Yeah. He was in three of them. Holy crap. He lost his wife, their unborn baby and both his parents in concentration camps.

And he was in Auschwitz, Dachau? Iborn baby, and both his parents in concentration camps. And he was in Auschwitz, Dachau? I can't, he was in a couple of them. And he, even in the concentration camps, he said, I've got to figure out how me being in this place is a good thing. Damn. And the theory that he came up with was,

if they kill us, we go to the gas chambers and they kill us, my death will be meaningful because it will show the world how evil the Nazis are. That was his perspective. I wasn't happy about it, but anything I find anything that that is the most helpful perspective I've ever found on life period that if the other day I'm working on a book in New Orleans and It's a mini book and I'm at like 7900 words and it's a little book called the anatomy of a messaging campaign

and we're gonna self we're gonna publish it and just give it away and I Went I dropped it into Slack and it didn't go. So I'm like, what's going on? So I opened back up and it was April, I don't know, 18th. And the version was April 2nd. And it was 1900 words long. That's the worst I've felt in a really long time and I was awful man. I all the stages of grief like denial and negotiation and

You know doing like I'm even going back in the time stamps on my computer and they're probably gonna found it I but I couldn't find it. Was on Google docs. Wasn't you sound like my wife. Exactly what she said. Cause they record everything there. I know you could delete the whole document and still pull it up. I know I well I'm switching, but, um, it took me about two hours. And then I just said, okay, well, it was, it wasn't going to do well because it was too long winded. And so this was, this is fate telling me to rewrite it and make it shorter.

And I was like, okay, I rewrite it, make it short and rewrote it in one day. Wow. And, and, and turn it in. Yeah. I'll start trying to think what I do with that thing. I turned it in and, and made'll start trying to think, what'd I do with that thing? I turned it in and made several copies of it by the way. I think that skillset, some chick dumps you, man.

And you gotta say, hey, two things here. One, I gotta learn whatever lesson I gotta learn here about why I may not be attractive to the opposite sex. I gotta do something about that. So that's a gift. And second, five, seven, eight years from now I'm gonna be married to the most amazing woman ever. And it wouldn't happen without this. But you gotta live that. You gotta figure that out right there so it doesn't take you down. I had a book come out when I was in when I was your age called

Blue Like Jazz and that book spent 42 weeks on the New York Times bestseller's list. Yeah. And I grew up really poor and that book made me some money. I remember getting checks for like a couple hundred grand. Holy crap. I would... From a book? That's crazy. Yeah. I would go to the bank with that check, the deposit, that's what you did back then. Now I scan it on my phone. Yeah, exactly. And I would be like third person in line,

but the really, really hot teller was gonna get the fourth person. So I'd like that person to go ahead. So I wanted to drop that check. Or could you put this in my account? That's what a dork I was. But, and I paid off my house and was very smart with the money.

And I sold my house because I was going to buy a different house in Portland. I lived in Portland at the time. And I sold my house, had the money and the house that I wanted got bought out from under me. And so I'm sitting here with my entire life savings off of a New York times bestseller. And I had a short-term investment six months come up.

So we can invest in six months and six months to get the money back. So just start looking for a house now. And I sunk the money into that lost it all. Whoa. Every penny. And I remember a week crime. I was thinking it's never going to happen again. The chances of you writing New York times, but still are very, very slim.

And, uh, and the chances of being paid anything like what I was being paid at that time. Very, very slim. And I remember having to, about two weeks in, wasn't suicidal, you know, kind of like you, but just like, could have gone there, you know? Had just started dating, it was like 12 years ago, just started dating the woman who's now my wife. And now I don't have any money.

Right. You want to tell her? No, I told her. But you know, women are attracted to, you know, power, looks, money. I only had money and now I don't have that. And so I remember forcing myself, like just sitting down and just saying it over and over and saying, that will be the best thing that's ever happened to you. I remember forcing myself, like just sitting down and just saying it over and over saying that will be the best thing that's ever happened to you.

Losing all that money will be the best thing. You will look back 10 years from now and this will be the best thing that ever happened to you in your entire career, guaranteed. And I just said it over and over. That was 12 years ago. And today my wife and I give away more money every year than I lost on that day. Wow. We give it away, you know, to anti-human trafficking causes, to friends who need money, to, you know, that sort of thing.

And I guess this is, you know, I'm supposed to be talking about messaging and stuff, but this is so much more important. If you can figure out what Viktor Frankl is talking about here, a redemptive perspective on your suffering, like every, it's not easy, but what he said is like, your subconscious is going to list automatically without you trying every single way and every single reason that you are doomed. He said, but you can take your executive brain and make a second list of reasons that this is actually a blessing.

And he said, what happens is the spotlight will then shift from the negative list to the positive lift and you will begin to live out of that positive list and you will make it true, more likely to make it true. And I've seen that over and over and over. I love that. Over and over. That's like the opposite approach to the victim mentality. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think victim mentality is the cancer. Yeah. I agree. Yeah. I grew up with that. Same. I think everyone did. Really? A lot of people. I mean, you don't have it now though, right? Not as much, maybe.

I'd say I'm... Can't. Yeah, I feel like it's completely gone now, but yeah. I had it back. Yeah, I go back into it. Yeah, sometimes I'll doubt myself a little bit and take, you know, put the blame on someone else. Yeah, it's easy to do that.

It's hard not to. Yeah. I've been trying to do this pull-up challenge this year. I'm trying to do like three sets of five pull ups in January, three sets of six in February, three sets of seven in March, three sets of eight, you know, and I hurt my wrist and now I can do them like every three or four days because my wrist just isn't healing. And this sounds like, it sounds so petty, but that mantra of like, dude, you're

getting old, you don't heal fast. You know, you're not as young as you used to be. And this is the future. It just gets worse from here. Your body starts to fall like that whole thing is just, so I'm like, okay, well, but let's take the executive brain out, make a list. This is actually very humbling. You're gonna have to work harder.

You'll be more proud, you know, whatever. But, um, anyway, that's a good skill set. Yeah. I love that. You should, uh, coin a term for that mindset. Trade market. Oh, uh, well, I wrote a book called hero on a mission and it's about the four roles we play in life, victim, villain, hero, God, and the hero mindset.

Sounds kind of cheesy, but a hero mindset is like, bring it on. You know, interesting that villain mindset is, is about vengeance. It's about getting even for the pain that has been given to you. Like if you, if you look at the villain and the hero in a story, they have very similar back, back stories. The, the villain was the reason a villain has a scar or a hero in a story, they have very similar backstories. The villain was, the reason a villain has a scar or a limp in a movie is to indicate that they were hurt and that they're responding to that pain.

What's interesting is, start paying attention to movies now. Almost every movie you watch, the hero is some sort of orphan. Wow. Their dad left, their parents got divorced. They're, you know, think about ET. Well, I'm dating myself. I watched that one.

Yeah, that dude's dad was gone. Yeah. Uh, Daniel and the karate kid, that dude's dad was gone. Nemo's lost his parents, you know, on and on and on. They always make them some form of an orphan. And so both the villain and the hero have a backstory of pain, but they respond to it differently. That the villain says, I'm going to, I'm going to seek vengeance

on the world that has hurt me. And I'm going to cause other people pain because I've pain has been given to me. And the hero says, I'm going to stop this from happening to anybody else. And so they actually, they wake up and they serve the world and they try to protect the world from the pain that they experienced and the villain tries to call them cause more pain. It's fascinating. And if you think about how close those two are,

like anybody can choose the villain path or the hero path just based on how they're processing pain. And to me, it's, you know, the ramifications of going into, and then victim mindset, victim mindset, first of all, I think America as a culture has gone from heroic mindset to victim mindset. And it's moving there quicker and quicker. I agree.

And it's costing us. Because in a movie, a victim character or in a novel, you know, in terms of plot structures, the victim is a bit part. The movie's not about the victim. The movie's about the hero. The victim only plays a bit part to make the hero look good and the villain look bad, that's it. They don't transform, they don't accomplish anything.

You know, they're just there to be in pain. Yeah. And if you play the victim in your life, that's exactly what will happen to you. You won't transform, you won't accomplish anything, you won't help anybody. So it's, you know, it's a road you don a road. You don't want to go down a hundred percent been down there and no growth. Yeah.

Nothing came from that mindset. I'm curious about you though, with the, like, what was the pivotal, you know, for me, it was like reading Victor Frankl was actually very influential. Yeah. I got to see if there was one specific moment for me or just like accumulation of events, but I've always had a chip on my shoulder, you know, something that just fueled me. Like people are like, why are you filming so many podcasts?

I don't know. It's just natural for me. Yeah. Like I film 800 a year. Jesus. It's gotta be a record, right? It's crazy. Yeah.

But I'm like still so energized from it. I love it. Other people are like, I'd get burned out. Clearly been a, you know, Victor Frank would say a project to work on, you know, something that, you know, the way he says it is if you don't wake up today, the plates are going to drop. You know what I mean? Like you have to have a reason to get up.

Yeah. You do this with your team, your wonderful team, and then it's freaking hard, but it serves others. And so that's a good reason to sacrifice and actually do it. He calls it logo therapy. It's a therapy of meaning. Love it. Well, Donald, this has been awesome. I thought we were going to do a story time. I really enjoyed it, Sean. I've been looking forward to meeting you. Yeah, likewise. Can't wait to. You're a very unique Podcast host, so I'm honored to be here. Thanks, man. I'll see you in Nashville soon. We'll link your books below as well

Thanks for coming on. Appreciate that. Yeah, check them out guys. See you next time