Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Busy Philipps

Episode Date: August 22, 2023

“Girls5Eva” star and the host of “Busy Tonight”, Busy Philipps joins the show. Over chilaquiles and tacos, Busy discusses her separation from Marc, her activism around reproductive justice and sexual assault, and her child Birdie’s recent obsession with “Modern Family.” This episode was recorded at Comodo (within The Freehand Hotel) in New York City’s Flatiron District. Want next week’s episode now? Subscribe to Dinner’s on Me PLUS. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, but you’ll also be able to listen completely ad-free! Just click “Try Free” at the top of the Dinner’s on Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. A Sony Music Entertainment & A Kid Named Beckett production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode of Dinner's On Me was recorded on May 13th, 2023. Hi, it's Jesse. Today on the show, actress, podcaster, and one of my favorite Instagram follows, busy Phillips. We'll talk about her recent separation from Mark Silverstein, her amazing activism around reproductive justice and sexual assault, and of course, dating in your 40s. I have some Vienna cat, you got really offended, you said, why would I have a cat?

This is Dinners on Me, and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. I met Busy years ago, the way so many people in Hollywood meet each other, through a friend of a friend, I was invited to her 30th birthday party in Palm Springs over a decade ago, and we have remained in contact ever since, bumping into each other at various parties, or award shows. I think that's what people call a humble brag. Anyway, for several years, her sitcom Cougar Town was part of an hour-long comedy block with modern family.

Through her very active social media presence, I followed not only her career, but her personal life as well, watching her navigate the rollercoaster of being a parent. Her candid honesty and willingness to share so much of her personal life with her fans on Instagram has always fascinated me. I'm obviously not the only one who is taken by her blunt honesty and outspoken nature. She was given her own late-night talk show on E. It was prematurely canceled, but not before I got to be a guest on it. I had a great time with her on her show. I think being a talk show host must be one of the hardest jobs out there, and yet I thought she was a natural and so incredibly

easy to talk to. So all of this made me very excited to reunite with Busy. I asked Busy to meet me at Komodo, a Latin American restaurant inside the freehand hotel in New York City's Flatiron District. It's a hip spot, and as you know, Busy is a hip lady. And also, it's known for its tacos and chilaquiles in case she's having any West Coast homesickness.

Let's get to the conversation. Weat Chessie, I have to tell you, Bertie recently has become obsessed with modern family. Oh, really? This is the like, as we fight for a reason. Bertie's for two. You know, yeah, almost 15. Almost 15, okay.

I'm like, actually shocked that Bertie went 15. Okay, I'm like actually shocked. Yeah, that birdie went to modern fan. I have to be honest. Okay, yeah, yeah, because birdie's general vibe and television watching is like like heart stopper. Sure. Young royal. She's got great taste.

Birdie's right now a screening in Brooklyn of one of her favorite movies, my own private eye to hoe. Shut up. She's at a screening. This is what I her favorite movies, My Own Private Eye to Hope. Shut up. She's at a screening. This is what I'm saying. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So, like, so not that, like, I just never expected

Bernie to be like, oh my god, I started watching Modern Family. I'm obsessed. You have to watch it with me. And I was like, you know, I would watch it over the years because of course, like that first year, Kuhr-T Town was with modern family. We showed a comedy block.

We were blood friends until Kool-Aid Town got the axe. Hi, how are you? Very good. What are you guys known for? What are your specials? To Kool-Aid. That's what I want. I love Kool-Aid.

I love it, Kool-Aid. Maybe I'll do no protein, and then add egg, and can I get the eggs of medium-ish? Of course. Thanks, that would be great. I'll do the shrimp tacos. Ooh, you have grapefruit juice. Yes, we did.

Have grapefruit juice in like a soda water as well? Of course. Guess what, I'm gonna get it. Can I get a Paloma, but the Paloma? Paloma? Yeah, the Paloma. Yes. And can I get water too?

Thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. I was gonna say when I moved to LA and I met you, I was like, this is a lady who has born and bred in LA. Yes, I mean, I wasn't, but I, yeah. But you had that fight. I know you were there forever.

I'm Arizona, but like, you carried yourself like a Tinseltown lady. I am. My old agent called me the mayor of Hollywood. Like I was definitely. You knew everyone too. I don't know if that's still true, but I did know everyone.

I've been gone since 2020. Oh, it's changed. It's changed. Things have changed. Yeah, that's true. It's crazy when I go back, but yes, I feel like I had it all sort of like unlock, which is also interesting to do in the middle of your life If this is the middle of my life, although I think I'm probably gonna live to like a hundred and

So this is probably not quite yet the middle But like it's an interesting thing to do to just like pick up and totally change everything From where you've put all of your roots and all of yours. Yes. But what I was going to say is, you had such great success at such an early age, which is both a blessing and a curse because you are validated in early age. Yes, you're good at this.

You're going to find a career in this business, but also it's such an early age to take that on. I think it's a different, you different, I was very successful early on in theater, but I didn't have, I wasn't on a television show. People weren't all of a sudden like recognizing me. And I don't know how I would have handled that at that age. But people, but it was just a different time, like celebrity culture, what it's become is so different

than what it was in the late 90s. And I was definitely not like famous. I was working and I was really lucky to have got Freaks and Geeks being like the first TV show I was on was incredibly lucky and having that be my introduction to what being on a TV show could be at its best. And also working with people who are your peers,

truly like, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it was like a magical, magical time, but no one was coming up to me in restaurants. Do you know what I mean? Like it wasn't, I didn't feel that thing. A little bit more so when I was on Dawson's creak. Sure. But that show was huge.

It was, but I was added to that, like I was like on the fifth and sixth season. It wasn't like cover of Rolling Stone Bob. I'm seeing it already. Like, it had already sort of happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When you say like you had a lot of success early on, like, yes, and also, I was huffing it constantly.

And like, there was one pilot season I tested for 10 shows, Network EM Studio, 10 shows, and didn't get any. I'm just so impressed with people who were able to conquer L.A. without that safety net and figure it out, and have success. Yeah, well, it was a lot of rejection. That's sure. I'm like, powering through it.

I was still in college when I did Freaks and Geeks, and then I left school, all because I got a job. I job, and I was like living the drain. It was good, and I wasn't, I wasn't like out at the Hollywood club, like, young Hollywood night. I wanted to be, I just didn't know where those parties were. Like I wasn't invited.

I wasn't either, and I feel like when I went to LA, I guess like, I don't know, I was probably in my mid to late 20s when the class was going on. I think like 28, 29. I do remember ending up at one of those parties and I was like, I do not belong here at all. I felt so out of place. Yeah, I think I had done it that first year

when I was on Freaks and Geeks. I'd sort of gone to a couple of those parties. And yeah, it just wasn't for me. It's just not who I am. I've been very lucky in the last many years now, because I just basically only do what I want to. Right, right. I'm like, work with people that I'm friends with.

Well, I mean, like, also you have fallen into like this glorious relationship with Tina Fey, who has been such an advocate of yours. It's been a sin. I can't even understand. It's the craziest turn of event in my life. What was your first thing that you encountered her on? It was a pilot for NBC called Sacket Sisters with Casey Wilson that didn't get picked up. I love Casey Wilson.

She's the best. Okay, so Tina hired you for that pilot. When this is exactly how things happen in LA, like you get to do these things sometimes they fall apart and then those relationships are born. Yeah, and I had to be honest with you, I didn't even meet her when I was doing the pilot because she rarely comes to LA.

But then after the show didn't get picked up, I'm trying to remember when I met her in person. Oh, I think I came to New York and we had a meeting. And then Eric Gurryon, who produces with her, they were coming in town because I think she was maybe hosting the Golden Globes or something or an award show. I can't remember. Shortly after that pilot didn't go,

like the next few months that summer. And we had lunch and he was like Tina wants to do something with you. You know, we like did Kimmy for Ellie, like what can we do? What do you want to do? And I was like I'm done acting. I don't want to do another TV show. Yeah. And he was like, well that's insane.

And all right, whatever. But you should. I'm like, well, okay, I'll keep it in mind. And then I had this idea to do this late night talk show and I called Gurryin. Is there any world in which Tina would produce it? And he's like, I don't know, we've never done something like that. I'll run it by her.

And then I went into my agency at the time and sat down with like the agents that do talk show hosting gigs, you know, which I have never done before. And I just was convinced that this was what, but my Instagram had become really popular. Well, that's what I was going to ask about that because I feel like you, first of all, what point of your career did you adopt in Seraph? I feel like you were one of the founders of people who like started, you know, really embracing that platform.

Yeah, so this was all happening sort of concurrently. Like post-cure town, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I'm sure you have this, maybe I don't know what your experience was after Modern Family, but I was a little bit like wary of jumping right onto another show. Yeah, same. And Danny McBride had vice-principles that was gonna be on HBO.

And I was really excited when they were like, we'd love to work with you, like to come do. And I knew it was just gonna be these two seasons that we shot back to back, but I knew nothing else. I didn't even know what the character was or anything. I was just blindly wanting to like work with those guys. Yeah, of course. And they were amazing.

Like and they're still really good friends. And I had the best time on that show. So I think I around that time started doing some branding stuff, you know? And it wasn't like my Instagram was super huge at that time, but it was like, I had enough of a presence that I could. But you don't know how many friends of mine prefer when they find out that I know you,

they're like, oh my God, I've been obsessed with their Instagram. Like go just watch your story. I know, like. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Woo. Yes, thank you. I love your like just straight-grate fruit juice.

And I'm like, I'll have a Paloma. I love that too. Thank you. Little spicy goods spicy goods in a thank you. Mouse sounds. Oh God, everybody hates how I eat on my podcast. When I eat on my podcast, they like fucking hate it. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, I'll talk to Busy

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Birdie does not, I mean, Instagram forget it. Like, they don't care about it. It's, yes, old people, old people. It's old people. TikTok is more, I would say, birdie doesn't have a public tech talk account, but we had a situation in fifth grade where Bertie had made and posted a tech talk that was like, because she was upset with these girls. Bertie wasn't wrong.

It was a bad situation, but it's also not okay to put something out there on social media that's the intent to hurt someone else's feelings, right? And so we had to, we obviously had to get involved and like have a real conversation about how you think about what you share publicly. And you know, it's complicated. We all make mistakes too, even obviously grownups make mistakes all the time. In terms of social media and what they share. And I think that it was really hard for Birdie. And she was really embarrassed, I think, because I think she also knows,

she's like a lot like Mark too, and really knows how smart she is. And I think she just felt dumb like she messed up, like something that was... She was disappointed in herself. She was disappointed in herself. But I will say, I was grateful that it happened and that we were aware of it,

and we could help course correct it because I think it's an important lesson to learn for these kids who are going to live so much of their lives online. Yeah, yeah. That you don't have to share every time your heart broken if you don't want to. You don't have to like share every great thing that happens to you. You can keep some things for yourself, which I do. And I also just think the other way that Mark and I try to parent is by example. And so I think that I try to lead by example with my kids. It's so interesting that you said that you go into that direction because I remember Justin coming home.

He had run into you somewhere and he goes, oh my God, busy in Mark are separating. I was like, I didn't hear about this. And like, I googled it, wasn't out there. Like, you kept that. Oh my God. Private for a very long time. I feel like it was almost two years. Yeah, it was a really long time. I feel like it was almost two years.

Yeah, it was a really long time. And you said it's been a while, and it was completely something that you did not share. And it was just for both dating other people. Like, like fully. And that was like, I got to the point where I was like, at some point, especially because now there's this thing in New York mostly like Dumo-Wah.

Yes, of course. Yeah, it's like a gossip thing. Blind items. Blind items. Not always so blind. I mean, I guess. Anyway, I just got to the point where I'm like, someone's going to see one of us on a date.

It's going to be. Right. And then they're going to think. Well, that's something like someone in your position has to think about. Most, a lot of people don't have to worry about that. Well, I don't know, maybe things are different now. I never did like an Instagram announcement of our divorce. I just was like, I looked for it.

You took it. Yeah, I didn't. I didn't, and we talked about it on the podcast. I just feel really strongly about like, my least favorite expression that my mom had when I was growing up, you know, there's more than one way to skin a cat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, you don't have to do a thing just because you've seen it done

other places. You don't have to announce on Facebook. You're whatever, you're going through. If it doesn't feel right to you. And when Mark and I were separated and going through it, and then we were both dating other people, and we were like making our new arrangement work and co-parenting, I remember my publicist saying, like, well, should we, I feel like we should put

an announcement out, and my manager said, like, I just feel like we should get ahead of it, and like, we should put the statement out, and I was like, why? It, Mark and I don't, it doesn't feel right to us. We don't want to do that. We don't want to put it out through my reps. We don't want to put both hearts.

It feels very clinical. It just wasn't right for us. And it didn't pass the gut check. And so at a certain point, I said to him, what do you think we could do that would feel the best so that, if you were out on a date or something, people wouldn't think you're cheating on me.

You know, and what did he say? Because I would feel like, I would feel terrible if that were, because that would be such a bummer for him. Right. And he was like, I don't know, do you want to talk about it on the podcast? And I was like, yeah, why don't I talk about it on the podcast?

And I was like, do you want to be on the podcast? He's like, not really. No, I don't. And I was like, yeah, why don't I talk about it on the podcast? And I was like, do you want to be on the podcast? He's like, not really. No, I don't. And I was like, okay. So. How do you remember what that, how you first verbalized it? I think I had talked to Casey about it and told her that I thought, I should.

I should. And she's like, whenever you want. And then I think just the way that our podcast is is very free-flowing and like long. It's too long. I will say I was listening to you. I was like, I'm listening to the last episode just so I know what you've just been talking about. It's two and a half hours.

It's too long. And I've been through 45 minutes. And I'm going to listen to the rest. I will. Listen, here's the thing. People, like, we've discussed making it shorter. People get real. They love it.

We have a lot of fans who love our long form discussion. It's great. It's working. I change it. hilarious. You can be talking, you run the game. We really do. We talk, I mean, sometimes it's pop culture.

Sometimes it's just what we're going through. Sometimes it's political conversations, but we really hit a lot of different things. But anyway, yeah, I think I just started talking about it. I said, well, Casey, you know that Mark and I've been separated for a year and a half or whatever it was. Do you know what the response was from your listeners? You know, I'm always surprised when like people's response to anyone's life news is like, I'm so disappointed. It's like, are you? Cause we're good. You should, we're doing okay.

I know it should be staying and something that's not working out for them. I think that we, in this culture, in this period and time, have gotten very, like, sort of hemmed in on ideas of what things look like and what ideal situations look like. Whether it's like romantic or jobs or money or like living arrangements or children or you know There are a million ways to live your life and be happy and satisfied and you don't need to Restrict yourself to one, you know, honestly, like deeply patriarchal

and sort of antiquated idea of what a relationship and like co-parenting situation can look like. Right. I mean, where can I share a home? Yeah. Yeah. And co-parenting is a whole other like, you know, share a home. So. Yeah. Yeah. And co-parenting is a whole other like, you know, thing you have to navigate. Yeah.

I mean, I adore Mark. I know you adore Mark. I do. I mean, it's like he's literally like one of my best friends. Yeah. Yeah. So we're good. It gets complicated at times, but like, it's really okay.

And almost, I don't know, I think I was very much informed by my Gen X upbringing, traditional ideas that were instilled in me before I even knew how to decide. Sure, absolutely. That makes complete sense. Yeah. Do you have? I'm like jealous of people in their 30s and 20s.

But are you? I am, yeah, I am. So would not want to go back. No, I don't like that. Just knowing what you know now. Oh, no, I don't want to go back at all, Jesse, but I just mean the way that they're raised. Oh, oh, god.

And the way that their brains have been allowed to kind of like see different versions of life as being empowering as opposed to being depressing. I'm gonna date with this guy and bless, but he was my age. Were we the same age, aren't we? Yeah, just about.

I'm a little older than you. I was born in 75. Okay, I'm 79. Yeah. But he was very much like, oh, I have to pay. You know, I was just like, dude, why? It's like, what's happening? I asked him if he had a cat, he got really offended.

He was like, why would I have a cat? I was like, because women like cats, what are you doing? What are you talking about? Do you know what I mean? There's like all of these things that like, especially our generation and older, we're kind of just like, it was just ingrained in us.

This is, sure. Massage anistic, patriarchal, a lot of times white supremacist, fucking bullshit. Where are you meeting people? Oh, I mean, I have no idea. I was on a dating site for one and a half seconds. Did you see like nine people you knew? I mean, everybody gets like

John Mayer pops up, you know, you know, or like, no, it's not for her. Also, I'm sure I'm not for him. But no, I didn't actually see that many people I knew, but it was more just that I had the realization after like two weeks that, first of all, I have a Edd. I know this about myself, and part of the thing, do you have a Edd? I know this about myself and part of the thing. Do you have a EDD? I might have a little bit of it for sure. It definitely has anxiety. Yeah, I had anxiety for years, but it was really just my ADD.

Yeah, me, yeah. Once I was medicated for ADD, all my low grade depression and anxiety went away. I'm not kidding. Oh, I know. I had a long conversation with Prismdall about this very thing, yeah. It's wild to realize that so much of it is tied to my executive functions and my brain,

like feeling like a bad person because I just couldn't organize my thoughts in the right way, you know, for years. But when you have ADD, you are sort of dopamine deficient. Yes. And those activities that release dopamine are super appealing to you and turn my Instagram and Instagram stories. But also after about like two weeks on this dating site, and this was just recently, by the way, that I like finally, like through a bunch of

friends, was like, you have to join a dating site. It's the only way to do it. And so I did and I realized like, oh, this is a disaster for me as a person with ADD because the appeal is too great for me to like keep clicking through things to try to like get a dopamine kick. And I decided that I had to delete it all. I had to let it go.

But I went out on like a couple dates from it. OK. It's kind of weird. I don't know. I think it's kind of weird. I can't imagine. I mean, it's like, Justin and I were just talking about like how we're in a great place.

But you know, just how grateful we are that we're not in the dating pool right now. So yeah, it's weird. And it's different also for gay men. It's like, yeah, it's a whole different thing. I mean. in a great place, but you know, just how grateful we are that we're not in the dating pool right now. So yeah, it's weird. And it's different also for gay men. It's like, yeah, it's a whole different. I mean, it's very different. But also like, I was like in a relationship after my divorce, and that was somebody that I

knew, like through work, you know, we'd like ended up reconnecting and like, you know, like, yeah, yeah. I have a, some of you had history with. Someone I had history with. And same with like, people Merc has dated, have some of you had history with someone I had history with and same with like People merc as dated marks not on dating site, although I really am like you wouldn't fucking kill on raya dude But he's the people he's dated have all been like People that he's kind of known before or you know what at first so for friends of a friend kind of I Yeah, yeah, I think I'm also

friend was kind of I think I'm also realizing too because I was really hurt broken after my divorce and then after dating the guy I was dating after my divorce like really really hurt broken and I just feel like I don't think I'm like in a place yeah I don't think I'm ready and my kids need a lot from me right now well that's a whole other thing that you have to show, especially that age and you're bringing someone new in. It's like, you know, when to do that and how it's going to maybe impact them and...

Like, I never did it with the guy I was dating. Birdie totally knew about him, but like, they never met. Like, it was just not, it never, that never happened. Oh, yeah. What do you say? Is that it? I was gonna say is that a churro? Don't know.

I'm very excited. Don't know. What's swimming underneath? So that chocolate sauce? That's not a lot. Wow. Okay, this is very exciting. And now for a quick break, but don't go away.

When we come back, busy and I talk about her openness around her experiences with sexual assault and abortion, and her amazing activism that landed her in cuffs. But she's totally fine, don't worry. Okay, be right back. Globally, humans are facing massive problems that are widely ignored by governments and the media, like personal space invaders. I had it with these couples that sit widely ignored by governments and the media. Like personal space invaders. I had it with these couples that sit on the same side of the booth.

Yakmails. Stupid stick figure bumper stickers. All the milk. You cannot milk an almond. Hi, I'm Jennifer. And I'm Angie. We call her pumps. And we're the hosts of I've had it.

Pumps tell the listener where they can find us. Apple Spotify Amazon or wherever you get your podcast. It's nailed it. See you next Tuesday. Hi, so if you have a few minutes to spare it, I'll help us if you thought the short listener survey. It'll let us learn more about our audience, which helps us sell ads that keep this podcast furry. You can also share your opinions about the show so we know what you think is working and what we could do better So please go to dinnersonme.fans to fill out the survey. Thanks And we're back with more dinners on me. I do want to talk to you a little bit

I'm so inspired by your activism around you know talking about during the Kavanaugh trials, talking about rape. And, you know, you use that opportunity to speak in front of Congress. I wanna know what that was like. I wanna know what it was like when you were protesting Roe v. Wade and you were arrested and you were like, Jane Fonding it. I wanna know all this.

It was crazy. Start with the Kavanaugh stuff. It was all crazy. I think writing my book was instrumental in helping me find my voice as an actual activist because when I decided to be very candid about the things I had gone through and experienced myself as a woman, it allowed me to free myself of the shame of it. And then from that place, it was easy for me to be able to speak up and loudly for others. Because I wasn't filled with a fear that someone would tell me

a thing that I secretly believed about myself, that I was a horrible person, that I was a liar, that I was a murderer, a baby murderer, like all of the things that shame sort of like spirals in your self when you're holding things, especially things like, you know, sexual assault or, you know, for women, I think abortion, I think women have been shamed for 30 years plus

about, I mean, abortion care specifically, but like, justifying reasons why. And I'm so grateful, I mean, abortion care specifically, but like, justifying reasons why. And I'm so grateful, I mean, I have like so many thoughts about the abortion movement and like, and what's happening now. But for me, I remember I had written my book in which I talk about, you know, losing my virginity at 14, which is birdies.

Yeah. Birdies like almost actually not 14 anymore. you know, losing my virginity at 14, which is birdies. Yeah. Birdies like almost actually not 14 anymore. And when this time last year actually, I remember like sobbing to Mark and just saying like, I can't do this. Like I can't, I can't have, I can't look at myself at that age.

And no. Like I can't, I don't know how I'm gonna make it through this year with her. And I mean, obviously did, but it was so painful, like, and it still is, obviously, like in the moments when I have the realization of how young 14 is. How do you talk about what's going on

in our world with them? Well, Bernie's so aware of everything and like, Bernie knows about my rape and knows about my abortion. Bernie came with me to Congress with Mark when I testified about my abortion in 2019. But yeah, I remember watching the Brett Kavanaugh trials and watching Christine Blasey Ford and the bravery that she displayed and also her knowledge that coming forward and speaking the truth of her situation was only going to be

detrimental to her life. And yet she knew that she had to do it. I was so inspired by it. I mean, my own story about my rape and sexual assault at 14, which I had struggled with for so many years because when we were growing up, like in the 90s, where it was like if it's not in a dark alley

at knife point, that's not rape. Right. You know? But like, I didn't, it didn't. I had all the skin ripped off my back, like from carpet, that's not normal. I didn't process it as a rape for years. I did all of the things that I now know,

victims of sexual violence and assault do, which was like tried to justify it, tried to make it a relationship that I had, like tried to become sort of infatuated with the person and told people that they were my boyfriend, like offered sexual favors to him after the fact. And you know, it kinda makes me like lightheaded, even now, to talk about it.

I made a decision, you know, in the aftermath, in the immediate aftermath of it. How many years after was it when you kind of came to? It's probably 17, I think, I was 17. Again, guys, 90s. My friend was dating a guy. We were 17. We were seniors in high school.

And my friend was dating a guy who was in college. Like, he was like 19 or something. Which by the way, my children would not do any, like now, either. Burdy's like, ugh, I would never date a 19 or 20-year-old guy when I'm 17 or a girl when I'm something. Right. Because why would they, that doesn't make any sense?

You know? I don't know, that's what we all did. Yeah, the gulfs between those ages and that age is so huge. Huge. But, I mean, in this guy's credit, he was like a very nice kid and he was like a psychology major or something.

And we were at like, after-party, hanging out, and I was talking to him and like told him this story, you know how you lose your virginity came up or whatever. And I like told the story as I had told it for years, and he was like, busy, that's not okay. That's actually like he were raped. And I'm like, no, I wasn't raped. I mean, that's crazy.

And he's like, okay, but actually, yeah, you kind of were. So you might wanna think about that. Start processing that, right, right. I was like, what? Oh, I knew it was definitely fucked up on some level. And I was deeply, deeply depressed for months after. And like, When you're also at that age,

it's like you put so much onto these people that you decide that you're in love with. I remember having crushes on people. It's just you put all of it in there. I like barely knew him. Well, exactly. And then I was just like, no, it doesn't matter. It didn't matter.

And so then in that process, it took me years of therapy, but then also it changed a million times the way that I thought about it. And only in the last few years, several years have I really come to the understanding because of DBT therapy and honestly the Me Too movement and friends of mine, friends, people I've known who've had serious allegations against them, where I've been able to hold that two things could be true. And that it is possible that that guy back then

did not think that he had raped me. And yet I was definitely raped. Like that was how I lost my virginity. But, you know, I really felt like it was the way that I wanted to talk about it, was just with the complications that I felt and sometimes still feel about it. You know, and I'm glad that I had the platform of a book, like a long form story, to be able to tell it as opposed to like... You can lay the groundwork.

Great, as opposed to like reducing it to 120 characters or whatever. I posted about it in response to Christine Blasiford and her bravery, but with the knowledge that the longer version of the story was available. And people could look at it. And I think sometimes people, they believe that they have to reveal things publicly

in a major way on social media in order for it to, I don't know. Like in order for healing to begin? Yeah, kind of, but like I just, I just think people need to like be able to process things in the way that they process them and not feel... Well, the processing... The processing is for you, it's not for anyone else.

Sometimes these movements are incredible because it allows people to unlock these things. I do worry that if people feel pressured to come out with this thing publicly, that it can delay or inhibit their own healing process. You know what I mean? Well, like, yeah, it absolutely makes so much sense to me because it's like you're not doing it for yourself. Right. You're doing it for the greater good of the world. Right.

And really in situations like that, it needs to be for you. Right. But I think the, because like for me personally, that shame piece of it was so huge, both with the rape and then my abortion and talking about my abortion publicly. I had not talked about it for so many years, both of them because of the shame I felt, and all of it was complicated emotions that I tied around it. So that was what was preventing me from really talking about it publicly. And I'm glad I didn't because I wouldn't have been able to handle any kind of backlash or any negativity. Any of the death threats, Jesse, that I

have received since because if there's one thing that the anti-abortion people love to do, it's death threats. Send death threats. Which is super fun. Liz and I know all about it. Yes, yes. But I really prepared myself for the worst, especially with talking about my abortion on my late night show and then in Congress. I have to say, I was so much moved by the support and like the outpouring of people who had also had abortions

who were grateful for me being the one out there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Talking about it loudly. And I don't have all the stigma and shame that I had, like, had attached to it, is really actually healed and gone now. Yeah. But I see women who are now speaking out

about because of these extreme abortion bands, complete bands and the Dobs decision who are now just traumatized and going through it and having to speak publicly in front of Congress or state legislatures. There was this incredible woman and my hurt was just breaking for her because this is like a recent thing that trauma that just happened to her

and she's having to like go relive it on a public stage. And this isn't even a person who's asked for a public life. And like so that kind of bravery is beyond to me. Also in a moment when it's being dismantled around us. This was a woman in Texas who was speaking to the legislature there, I believe, about what their ban has done and what she's gone through, just in the last year and a half, you know. And so, like, when I see a person like that who's so recently

trauma, like literally traumatized by her experience of being denied care, because she had the misfortune of living in Texas. It's unbelievable to me, and then also makes like, my own resolve from using my platform even bigger. You know, of course, I'm gonna keep showing up. This woman can like show up and talk about this months after it happened to her. Like, yes, we all should be fighting. And also with like all the LGBTQIA plus laws

that have been proposed, these like such a threat. The ban on drag. I mean, we've all watched the John Stewart episode where he's calling out hypocrisy. Yes, yes. You know, with this drive ban. Good, how are you? I'm pretty good.

Okay. What you guys think of give me some coffee, some tea? No, I think I'm OK. Do you want anything? Think for a good thank you. Thank you so much. Thank you. Don't worry about the checktiners on me. Will you talk a little bit about what it was like being a red

nap? I've been arrested once. Why were you arrested? Let me tell you. I had just moved to New York. I was a new theater student. I went to go see Angels in America on Broadway. Amazing. And me and my roommate, it was back when we used tokens

to get on the subway. Sure. We only had one token between the two of us. Oh, God. So Angels in America is three hours long. We had an early day the next day. We had three of us in the morning. This train was coming.. So, Angels and Marikas, three hours long. We had an early day the next day, we had three of class, you know, eight in the morning.

This train was coming, I didn't have time to buy a token. I don't even think I had any more money. So we doubled up on the turn style. Oh, my God. And I totally, we both got arrested. Taken in. That's insane. I'm sorry.

We were like, you know, fingerprinted. We were taken to like, oh, that was the other thing. They put us in a side room off of the subway station and we waited there for a while. I'm like, well, how long do we have to wait here? And they said, well, we're waiting for other, we need to find three other people to get into the truck to make like the trip

to the facility worth it or whatever. There's this seems wild. There was seems to be a pickpocketer. It was just like, you know, different criminals in the back of this truck, brought into the station. And then we were there for quite some time. And then like, you know, you criminals in the back of this truck brought into the station, and then we were there for quite some time, and then like, you know, you have to hand over everything

that to the officer when you arrive, and then I think like three hours later, we were released and we went back to our dorm rooms, and I remember them handing me a plastic bag of my belongings, and it was like my wallet, my keys, and my angels in America play bill, in a plastic bag. You got that, actually genius. But I was like, that seems like an overreaction.

When the thousand percent, we were actually like an example was being made. Wow. And we also had the not to do community service. It was a whole thing. Oh my god. For jumping a turn style. That's wild. Yeah.

Well, after the dog's decision, which I knew was gonna happen, and I have to tell you, it still did not prepare me for like the devastation I felt on that day, June 24th, the day before my birthday. Like I was not prepared for how sad I was because I think that I had been holding out some hope. Yeah, we all were. You know, because now, like I'm involved holding out some hope. Yeah, we all were.

You know, because now, like I'm involved with all the works, all the works. And so Karen from Planned Parenthood called me and was like, we're gonna do an action of peaceful protests. It's like the first time Planned Parenthood has ever participated in something like this. Outside of the Supreme Court

and we're gonna obstruct traffic, and people will get arrested, but you can also just come and march and not get arrested. There's like very clear the moment when you decide it's very clear. You either go to the sidewalk, or you sit down in the middle of the street. I was like, I definitely can't get arrested

because I have to get back to New York because Mark's birthday is tomorrow and he'll be so annoyed if I'm like, I'm hearing the clink. And I have to meet Cricket's birthday cake for her birthday the next day. You know what I mean? I need to, I like can't.

Oh my god, your epic birthday cake so just thought about it. Yeah, so, and she had wanted this weird emoji cake and I was trying to, anyway. But, and so on the train down, I'm with like, playing parenthood people and they're like, oh, it's gonna be, it's gonna be fine. It was so hot. And then we got there and I just knew that I was gonna get arrested. Like as soon as I got there, I was like, oh yeah, I mean, I'm gonna sit down. I know I'm gonna sit down. Yeah. And I can't not sit down. Yeah. She's a Jew.

She's a Jew. Congresswoman, Judy Chuse sitting down, getting arrested in a peaceful protest like in this way. It was all very organized. Like we knew, they told you exactly what was gonna happen. Sure, sure. Everybody was scared of maybe falling asleep. I mean, honestly, like what you went through feels scarier to me than what I went through.

Like it was very- Like I've seen it was an American the process. I know. It was uncomfortable American process. I know. It was uncomfortable. It was really hot. And my butt was like burning on the asphalt. And that was like always my biggest concern. It was my butt burning.

And I was just grateful I wasn't wearing shorts. Also, the way they processed us, because there were so many people, was they decided not to take us to the facility. The facility, but they just literally cordoned off parts of the lawn in front of the Capitol building. You're like you're in jail now. Yes. And they just had guards watching.

It's like watching kids. You guys, you guys, this is home base, and this is chair. I swear, I swear. That's like literally what it was, truly. You know, and so I wanna be very clear, like I'm aware of my privilege, it's like a white girl protesting,

that the way that I'm treated, and what that was is very different than the vast majority of Americans' experiences, when they are arrested for any reason, including protesting. I had that awareness of my own privilege going into the situation, and so then, therefore, I did think, well, I can do this relatively

sure that I'm gonna be safe and treat it okay. What did you take away from that day? Because I mean, really, unfortunately, nothing changed. Well, nothing's going. I mean, that's the thing. Like, they changed the law. Yeah. I don't really quite know exactly where we go from here

because, again, like we started talking about these politicians are so unwilling to admit when maybe they have made a mistake. You'd have to be a very meopic person to not acknowledge the mistake that this was. It's a huge mistake. Other people that you feel like you can talk to that you aren't inspired by or that sort of give you direction or like, where do we do next? I mean, how do you organize that? I think it's really complicated, especially in terms of reproductive justice and equality in this moment in time because it feels daunting and all encompassing and a lot of the activists

that I'm friends with and the people that I have like historically speaking looked to are a little bit like, yeah, this is tough. You know, the same thing when I'm doing work with ACLU and all of these like LGBTQIA trans bands and all of that stuff, it's really disheartening, especially when you know that these politicians don't give a fuck. That's the part that fucks with my head, I think.

They like actually don't care about abortion, they don't care about gay people living their lives. They really don't, they don't care. They're bought and sold these people. And it's all about money for them. And unfortunately, they like are able to translate it into a rallying cry for other people. And they point at like economic disparity

and try to tell them that like, this is the reason why, right? It's like a red herring, it's like a scapeboat, but the politicians know what they're doing, and they literally don't care. That's been a really rough few years for sure. And all, I mean, your podcast is aptly named, you're doing your best.

Oh my God, I'm trying. You're doing your best. We all are, I'm trying. You're doing your best. We all are. Yeah. I mean, most of us are. Yeah, not everyone. Some people aren't, and those, I'm fuck those people. Ha ha ha.

Ha ha ha. I always try to like move from a place of empathy, you know, like I'm really big on whatever, I'm a storyteller, Jesse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like I'm able to kind of like work backwards, even from people who have beliefs and ideologies that do not align with my own.

And I don't know how to help that change, except for telling stories. Well, speaking out about it and having open dialogue, I think it's so important. There were people that commented on my Instagram or sent DMs or sent emails to the talk show that were like, I was very against abortion, I didn't realize how common it, what, like, you know, like people who took all of a sudden...

You give it a face, you give it humanity. And that's something that all it takes, you know, is just like knowing that this is actually not just a word and a dictionary and a procedure. It's something that is impacted your life and has given you life, has given you the life that you have now. And was something that was decided with a lot of care and consideration. Do you think about that when you like look at movies or shows or things to be in or produce like is that a consideration for you? Like, what does this do? you look at movies or shows or things to be in or produce,

is that a consideration for you? Like, what does this do? Is does this do something? I mean, what I think I'm a world. Yeah. Sometimes, sometimes not. Sometimes, I just like really fucking like the writing or like the director, but like this, for example,

I want to be able to have these conversations. We even talked about girls five ever, which is one of my favorite shows. Honestly, it's a back-to-back of all time. It really is. But like, this is very important to me to be having these conversation with you. And yeah, of course, of course.

There are certain things that I feel like, okay, this is an opportunity for me to put something good out into the universe, 100%. Every job can't be that, nor should it be. Right. I also love escapism. Me too. Like I want to be in cocaine bear.

I just want to have a bear mull me in a tree. And I did. Let that be a thing for a second. And spend some time with Elizabeth Banks in Ireland. Well, that was the real pull. Yeah, that was a real pull. Let's be honest. Let's be real.

It was really about that trip. It really was. And hanging with your friends. It really was. Which is totally understandable. I would do anything Danny McBride asked me to do just to go hang with those. Yeah, I've got to enjoy ourselves.

A hundred percent, or so lucky to do that. But I think about more now than ever. I've been really lucky in the things that I've been a part of up to a certain point. But especially now that I have more collateral, you know, with my own voice, I do think a lot about what is it that I want to be a part of and like what kinds of stories do I want to help uplift

or find, you know, that kind of stuff. Yeah, I just keep thinking about just beginning this conversation. I'm like 19 year old busy, you know, testing for fruits and geeks. And like, if you could say like, this is where you would end up, I think you would be, first of all, you wouldn't believe it. Also, you should be so proud of what you're doing. I just, I'm-

Oh, that's so cute. That's so nice. You know, thank you for doing this. I'm coming to have a meal with me. I love that you're having meals with people. It's not great. Yeah. Next time on Dinner's On Me, you've seen or

justified the Americans and Cocaine Bear. It's Margot Martendale. We'll get into our childhood pastime as a barber. Moonlighting is a private investigator, and of course, working together on Cocaine Bear. And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinner's On Me Plus. As a subscriber, you not only get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be

able to listen to them completely add free. Just click try free at the top of the Dinner's On Me Show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinner's On Me is a production of Neon Hum Media, Sony Music Entertainment and a kid name Beckett Productions. It's hosted by Yours Truly. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay.

Chloe Chobal is our associate producer. Sam Bear engineered this episode. Hansdale She composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Alexis Martinez and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.