Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Chuck Lorre – on the Making of ‘The Big Bang Theory,’ ‘Two and a Half Men’ & Second Chances

Episode Date: October 6, 2026

King of Sitcoms Chuck Lorre joins the show. Over a stack of hot cakes, Chuck tells me about what it was really like working on some of the most iconic sitcoms of the last 50 years, from being a writer on ‘Roseanne’ to going on to create some of the most successful shows of all time, including ‘Two and a Half Men’ and ‘The Big Bang Theory.’ He’ll talk about what he learned along the way, what it was like struggling with addiction during the height of his success, and how he came to work again with Charlie Sheen after ‘Two and a Half Men’ fallout. His book SITCOM is out October 13. This episode was recorded at Du-Par's in LA’s Fairfax District. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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That didn't get a laugh. What are you going to do? What are you going to do? That didn't get a laugh. You've got to fix that. That left. There was a maniacal need or fear that the audience wasn't constantly laughing. They'll change the channel. This is Dinner's On Me, and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Today, I'm at DuPars Restaurant and Bakery in L.A.'s Fairfax District. It's nestled inside the L.A. Farmer's Market. It's absolutely an L.A. institution. It's a stone throw away from CBS's Television City. It's a place where you can find Hollywood's biggest movers and shakers sitting next to families,

maybe who are sitting next to your next big TV star. And everyone's drawn to its legendary. hot cakes. Legend has it, David Lynch came up for the idea of Twin Peaks here. With all that said, it seems like the perfect place to talk about the Golden Age of Television with the King of sitcoms Chuck Lorry. Okay, he should be coming in any minute, so let's get to the conversation. It was very good to see you yesterday at Jimmy Burroughs Memorial. How was yesterday for you? A little numb. Jimmy had played an enormous part in my... life. Darmine Greg pilot, two and F. M.M., Big Bang Theory, Mike and Moller. Those were, I was quite

a partner to have on those pilots. Yeah. And he saved the day on more than one occasion when the network would say, we don't like this. After the table reading for Dharma and Greg, which was a terrific table, and I thought, okay, I'm on my way. Yeah. Gonna have a hit show. Yeah. And we had the meeting in the green room with ABC Network. I don't see why we need the parents in this. You know, that feeling when the earth is opening and you're falling. Yeah.

Because it was much of a show about a culture clash than it was a romantic comedy. Yeah. You know, the uptight, you know, Gentile family with money and the hippies. Yeah. And I was dumbfounded. and Jimmy said, don't worry, honey, I can make it work. Yeah, yeah.

And the note went away. They listened to him. They listened to him. Yeah. They absolutely went, oh, okay. Jimmy Burroughs says it can work. Yeah. And it was.

It was critical to the show. Yeah, I mean, absolutely critical to the show. He also intervened on the casting with two and a half men, reassuring Mr. Moonvest that it would be okay. It's all going to work out. Is this with John Pryor? I couldn't reassure.

Jimmy could. They would listen to Jimmy. Jimmy had such gravitas. Yeah. Is it with John Pryor? It was with John Cryer and also the little boy. Angus T. Young. Lest didn't have a lot of faith in any of that.

Yeah. Yeah. But Jimmy made them feel secure. He always, I mean, I've only done, I did it. I failed to come with him. a start on mid-century modern, which you just did. But the class, which was the show that I did with him for 19 episodes, ironically replaced by Big Bang Theory.

But I always felt, you know, that it felt like having an adult in the room when he was there. And I don't know how it felt for you. I mean, I know Jimmy's created, I think, more shows with you than any other showrunner. I don't know. I think that's true. I'm listening to his autobiography right now. Yeah, that's his talent. He's created more with you than anyone else.

And I, you know, just sitting in that room yesterday, surrounded by the cast of Frazier and Mike and Molly and, you know, friends. And, you know, Carol Cain's behind me. Right. And, you know, Melissa McCarthy's behind me. And Matt LeBlanc and Danny DeVito and Rio Perelman. Cheers. All the cast of Shelley Long. I was overwhelmed.

I had to be perfectly honest. And I, and then also all these people like you and Matt Smuchnik and David Crane, all these people who created some of the best TV. Les Charles. Yes. Les Charles. He is brilliant.

He's just still so sharp. So sharp. Jesus. Yeah. Unbelievable. And I felt so special as well. I mean, I was waiting out from my car and. this story is so name-droppy,

but Jennifer Annison and Courtney Cox are right behind me waiting for theirs. And they, I don't know them very well, but they came up to me, and they're like, isn't it incredible that we all, we are all part of this man's iconic history, and we are part of this legacy? And it really, it felt that way,

as overwhelming as it was, to be amongst all these people who I didn't really know and have just admired, I felt so special to be included in that room. It was pretty thin air. Yeah. It was remarkable. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And Bill Gardell, who was in Mike and Molly, spoke. And he's actually the one that brought me to tears. He just spoke so eloquently about Jimmy and how he really encourages everyone to be the best version of himself on set. And I think that's why so many people were there because they do their best work with him. but also just so happy to be a heart of that legacy because he, I think, he certainly made my life better. No question about it.

No question about it. Hi guys. Hello, how are you? Thank you. I'll do a Diet Coke, actually. Sounds good. Do you know what you want? I think so, yeah.

Do you? I do. I think I'm going, well, I'm toying between the patty melt and the BLT avocado. with a patima. Okay. All right. One of the things we're known. That's what, yeah, I've heard that.

All right, I'll do it. Nobody cooked that medium? Yeah, that's fine. French fries, cold stuff. I'm going to do french fries. French fries? Yeah. Okay.

I'd like scrambled eggs. Scramble easy. Okay. With hash browns. And, um, a short stack. Short stack. Yes. A short stack.

Now you want to just do those, just original, right? Just the buttermilk. Yeah, yeah. Bacon with that, too? Sure, why not. And then what kind of toast did you want for your egg? Have wheat toast, white toast, sourdough toast? Let me get sourdough toast.

Toasted well with butter, yeah? Okay. Thanks. I love in your book, which I told you yesterday that I love so much sitcom. I think it's fantastic. I mean, you know, proof and point I'm reading Jimmy's book again. But like I love anything that sort of pulls the curtain behind the making of television and film. And I just, I love, I loved your perspective on your career.

And specifically, you know, you mentioned John Cryer and you mentioned people who, I find the stories fascinating when the networks are resistance to certain actors. And John Cryer being one of them. You also talk about Melissa McCarthy, that they didn't want her. You talk about Allison Janney, then being resistant to her. But I do find those stories of people who almost got the role. And you almost got the role and then didn't get the role or the network fought for, you know, fought against and then you had to go to bat for. I find those stories so fascinating because you can't imagine now anyone questioning someone like Melissa McCarthy's talent. And yet you had to go to bat for her.

It's incredible. It was easier to go to bat having succeeded a little bit. Yeah. You know, I mean, they were less likely to do. try and, you know, overwhelm me because of two and a half men. Yeah. And the Big Bang Theory was working.

Right. So when it came time to cast Mike and Molly, that war didn't go very far. They didn't want to, they didn't want a reader, you know. They didn't like the idea. The show was about two people who met it in O-A meeting. Yeah. Right?

Yeah. And fall in love, you know. And it was, you know, couldn't have been more simple. people bonding on the wound. The woundedness is where they bond. And the first time she read, she came in an audition, you know. This was before bridesmaids or anything like that.

And it was truly unlike anything I'd ever seen. It truly was, it was only her. No one else could be what she did. You know, and she walked out of the room, and I turned to the casting direction. who worked with me for 30 years? What just happened? Yeah.

What just happened? It was so unlike anything I could have anticipated. Same thing happened when Jim Parsons read. What was that? What was that? Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Chuck talks about some of the actors he had to fight the network for on some of his biggest shows, including John Cryer for two and a half men, and Melissa

McCarthy for Mike and Molly. Okay, be right back. And we're back with more dinners on me. I mean, speaking of, you know, your early career, I mean, I don't think I knew that you sort of started. Your first big TV job was Roseanne, which has such folklore around it. You know, I'm friendly now with Sarah Gilbert and Lauren Metcalfe. And, you know, they all have their own stories of that time. but I was excited to hear your perspective on that moment.

I mean, that show was such a cultural moment, and it was such a huge hit. It's always so surprising to me, you know, and I read how hard it was behind the scenes. And, I mean, we all have heard stories about how difficult Roseanne Barr could be. And, you know, I didn't know these stories about, you know, her putting her husband's name on scripts

that were written by him. I mean, those early battle stories, you know, not knowing that you're going to have this incredible career in front of you, can you look back and, like, really remember how you navigated those, like, challenges at early moments?

I navigated them because I had, you know, 15, 20 years of poverty. Yeah. and health issues and all sorts of stuff. And I was not going to go back. Under no circumstances was I going to go back to scrambling to pay the rent. Scambling to take your kid to a doctor and they had an earache. And I think my life, my life, Prior to that is why I put up with it 60, 70 hour weeks every week, every week.

And it was, and it was, and it was malice. There was, there was, there was, there was, there was, there was, there was, there was, there was, there was absolute. Roseanne hated that there were writers, fundamentally hated that other people wrote words that she would say. The premise of writer and actor, she was a stand-up comedian. Yeah. She made herself a superstar based on her words. her writing and it transitioned to

a television show where you need you can't do it alone it's impossible that transition was not going to happen so there was this built in animosity between Rosie and the writing staff

any writing staff didn't matter if I was on it or anybody it was it was the premise of other people putting words in a stand-up comedian The comedian's mouth is fundamentally flawed. There's very few comics that can do that. Yeah.

Thank you so much. That's some of our homemade jam there. Thank you. Thank you. I mean, for me, I think the moment I really, you became sort of a cultural touchstone in my life was two and a half man. That was such a massive, incredible hit. It was also like around the time that I was,

was thinking about like, oh, the sitcoms look fun, and that looks like something that would be fun to do. I was still working in New York as a theater actor. This was before the class ever happened. And it was from what I remember from the very get-go, such a massive, incredible, huge success. And just consistently funny, every episode. And, you know, I think also for me, it felt like it pushed the envelope as far as like how blue you could go. And you speak pretty candidly in the book about how that show did put expectations around you of what a Chuck Lorry show is. Yeah.

Did that? Was that a complicated thing for you? Because obviously it had success before that without going as blue as you do. No, there was nothing blue in Darma and Gray. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was very much impacted by the enormous success of two and a half men. And I very wrongfully didn't understand that that's the tone of that show. An attempt to replicate it is ridiculous.

I did not know that. The early episodes of Big Bang Theory were proof that I had it wrong. Luckily enough, we survived long enough to figure it out. I knew that the Big Bang Theory was not to an F-Men, but the tone was not necessary. It should have been from out of the gate a family-friendly show. It really should have been. And it wasn't. And that was my mistake.

I mean, there was such folklore around that pilot. I had Simon on this podcast, Jim's been on this podcast. And both of them have, you know, their own stories about, you know, Simon wasn't involved in the first iteration of Big Bang Theory. but you know the the tone of it completely changed and it had to be re-shot i mean we got we got a gift that i've never i've never seen before we got a phone call saying we're not picking up your show would you consider trying it again unheard of yeah to get a second chance and i did one thing right with that second chance was i recognized that these characters were enough i didn't need We didn't need to do any heavy plot.

The characters were engaging and interesting enough. Brilliant characters who were outliers, who are outside, looking and trying to participate in the world, but not knowing exactly how. Except for Sheldon, Sheldon could care less about participating. Sheldon was a true outlier. Yeah, we got that right on the second pass. You know, the fact that Johnny's character, Leonard,

was absolutely over the moon with the pretty girl across the hall you know was the beating heart of it at the same time horribly underwrote Kelly's character but again we had the opportunity to make that change and learn as we went

and make her character a deeper richer character not in the beginning no she was the pretty girl next door you've now carried the Big Bang theory world into like three decades. Did you, obviously, I know the answer's no. Like you don't forecast something like that. But what strikes me as I've, you know,

looked at all these different iterations of this like these spinoffs that you've created from Big Bang Theory is how wildly, totally different they all are, which I think is just so exciting. Young Sheldon's nothing like Big Bang. theory. Right. And then you watch Stuart Fails to Save the Universe, and it is like, it's like a mini movie every week. I mean, the production levels are off the charts, and you're bringing in characters from these other shows, and yet they're completely different. I mean, obviously,

the premise of the show allows for that to happen, and I don't want to give anything away without, you know, I don't want to put too many spoilers out there for people who are maybe haven't started to watch it yet, but you really do set up a world in which you could take these beloved characters and throw them into these wild circumstances and still believe that this is Kaylee Pogo like being this like insane like mob leader and it's just it's really astonishing. So I want to give you, you know, flowers for accomplishing that. I think it's really remarkable. But I mean, what's your take on that world that she created and that massive success that has

had, and the fact that it does have the legs to support all these different genres. I don't think that's the big macro, oversee, you know, vision of things. I don't have that. Yeah. You know, the wonderful thing about Young Sheldon was how does his family adapt? Yeah. You know, again, we really learned this as we were making the show, Steve Malero and I that, The real story there was his twin sister, who's just a kid, you know,

and his older brother who is, you know, not terribly bright, you know. And working class parents and a deeply Christian mother, how do they respond to having this extraordinary once-in-a-lifetime genius in their home in East Texas? That was the story. And that was a story worth telling. and the fact that we shot it film style, you know,

we were granted a lot more freedom in terms of the relentless need to make a live audience laugh is what the four-camera world is. It is relentless. You've been doing this long enough, You've seen on many occasions network executives and company executives coming running out of the green room going. That didn't get a laugh. What are you going to do?

What are you going to do? That didn't get a laugh. You've got to fix that. That laughed at you. I heard. I know. I saw. I'm here as well.

I know it didn't work. We're going to change it. There was a maniacal need or fear that if the audience wasn't constantly laughing, they'll change the channel. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Chuck talks to me about the evolution of the Big Bang Theory pilot. The first one missed the mark, and he guarantees you'll never see it. And why Charlie Sheen's character was key to the message of two and a half men. Okay, be right back.

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You're talking about people, network executives, being so concerned about laughs. I remember in the pilot of two and a half men, there are moments. I think there was a commercial break that ended on a very poignant moment between Charlie and his little, and his nephew. Yeah. Which I think, you know, that's, I feel like somewhat brave in a pilot to. I felt so, too. It was risky. It was risky.

You know, there was. There was a one, the reason to do the show was to see how this little boy impacted on his uncle's lifestyle, life, his sensibilities, you know, to see Charlie as a, you know, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a, a center that it wouldn't have otherwise. You know, um, you know, um, you know, um, you know, the generate fall in love with this little boy. Yeah. I gave this show a little, a center that it wouldn't have otherwise had. Yeah. Well, I think, you know, a lot of people came to that show because of Charlie Sheen. He is a massive star. Movie star, yeah.

Movie star. And, you know, obviously he has his own personal life that what people knew about. And, like, I think to see him as the emotional center of that was surprising. He was trying to be a better man. Yeah. Sometimes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right?

Sometimes. Yeah. And there was a good deal of it where he absolutely reveled in his degeneracy. He reveled in his lack of compassion and empathy. And we punished him for it. If you watch this show, there's a Judeo-Christian ethic throughout where he was constantly being punished for being a dick. Yeah. Not like we punished Cryer, but there was very much a Judeo-Christian sensibility that sin will not be rewarded somehow.

Right. I mean, I'm sure this is the thing that you probably get asked about the most. We do not have spent a lot of time on it. But, like, it's leading to my next question. But I knew, you know, there's obviously a huge, like, very public rift between you and Charlie Sheen. You're like, what are you talking about? I don't know anything about it. But what surprises me is that you came back together to work together again later. And that, I mean, I remember when that happened, I was like, oh, my gosh.

like, it seems so big and it seems so like insurmountable. Like it would, something you would never get past. Take it to the grave. This very public, you know, this public nemesis to this actor. But then I was also just surprised

that when it came time to cast as the character, was it Booker? Was that the name of the show? Bookie. Bookie. You said, I know who should play. This would be Charlie Sheen. And that was your idea. I mean, walk me through,

like that walk me through that it had been several years inexplicably healing had occurred I you know I woke up one day and realized that you know the

the rage and anger and hurt that I had felt for a long time was just gone it was gone you know and and I called my partner on that project Nick Backeye and said I know who should play the celebrity gambler, you know, it's Charlie. It's built for Charlie. And he said, can you do this?

And I went, if he's sober, yeah, yeah. And I called him. I got, you know, I actually, I called an agency and said, you guys represent Charlie Sheen. I don't think they even knew for sure if they did or not, but they put me in touch with, I got on the phone with Charlie. And I said, here's a crazy idea and he couldn't have been more gracious. Couldn't have been more gracious. And he was actually, he was actually enthusiastic about it. And yes, his life had turned around dramatically in the interim during that time period. And we had a blast.

We had a lot of fun. And we even got Angus on the show too. Oh, yeah, yeah. Walk, we feel like the first 30 seconds to that phone call. Like when you call, he answers like, hey, it's Chuck. Yeah. Like, what were those first 30 seconds like? Well, he knew.

I was going to call. Okay. I mean, somebody, they'd given him a heads up that Chuck wants to talk to you. And I said,

I'm this crazy idea. And your game, I don't think we discussed the nightmare at all. Yeah, why? There was no reason to go back into the weeds

and hash that out. I just said, this is over for me. If it's over for you, this could be a lot of fun. Let's do this. And it was. He was,

he was, he was, very much turned his life around. Without... God bless him. You know, extraordinary strength of character. He turned his life around.

And he made one request. And I sent him the pages. I'm asking him to play himself. When you ask an actor to play themselves, they got to have copy approval. Yeah, yeah. They have to have approval. And it's always a heightened version.

Yes. Yes. Initially, when they went to get him to pay his debt. He was in a rehab in Malibu. And he goes, can we not do the drug thing? I'm happy to do the gambling, you know, maniac. But can we leave the drugs and alcohol out of it? And I said, yeah. So we rewrote it so that he, he sponsored a poker game, a high-stakes poker game, in a room at a rehab in Malibu. And it was so much fun. I actually got to direct that episode, where he's trying to pay off his debt with baseball memorabilia.

Yeah. You know, the great line, I have Babe Ruth's autopsy report. And he just nailed it. He just nailed it. And then we brought him back for another episode where he was giving marital advice. Filarious. To the bookie. That's hilarious.

To Sebastian Manus Galco's character. He's giving Mar-the-Buchy's. marriage is floundering and he's in a terrible mood and Charlie's giving him deeply felt heartfelt marital advice and when I sent the pages to Charlie he just he just wrote back this is perfect I mean I basically I already was a fan of his I think he's really talented and I just that makes me love him even more that he has that sense of humor about himself and his past and you know I should tell you the I asked him to write a blurb, you know, for the memoir.

Yeah. I'm going to try and quote it. It's so good. I was over the... That was sent in the copy I got. No, you didn't see... You got a galley. You didn't get the hardcovered.

But on the back of the hardcover is blurbs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Charlie's blurb was, when it comes to sitcoms, and life in general, always bet on the guy who's not hammered on crack. I just went... I mean, even... Whether you buy the book or not, when you turn it over, you're going to laugh at the back page.

It was really funny. That's so good. It speaks to his ability to look at his journey and laugh at it. Yeah, that's very inspiring. I mean... That documentary they made about him and stuff, it was really good. It's very good. It's really good.

Yeah. Patching on what you just said, you know, I know how important mom, the show Mom is to you, which I love. So it actually might... I think it might be my favorite of yours. Thank you. You know, even Mike and Molly, just people struggling to better themselves. Yeah, that's the story of my life. That's what I was going to say.

I mean, I really feel like you've taken your own person. When I read your story and I read your, you know, your history and that, you know, you started using alcohol and drugs when you were 14, and, you know, you've really struggled with that. And then watching what you've created as you've bettered yourself, it's really, It's quite remarkable. And I hope that you're so proud of what you've done with that struggle and how you've funneled it into some incredible television that's incredibly healing. I mean, mom is really, I mean, it is so moving and so hilarious.

I mean, obviously it's got an incredible cast, but it was doing something and talking about something that I really hadn't seen done in that way before. and I was just very, very moved by it. The premise is the same in all of them. It's people trying to be better. Recognizing life is not static. Growth is possible.

You know, change is possible. It was hopeful in this. There's hopefulness if that's the case. Otherwise, if we're doomed to just be assholes forever. Yeah. The idea of a character that's quite, trying to get better is somebody I'm caring for. Oh boy, I hope they do.

I hope the marriage works. I hope they get sober. I hope they stay sober. I hope that the money issues are resolved. I hope for them to better their lot in life. And I think if you care about the characters in this fictional thing, then the comedy works. Then it's funny.

if you don't care about them yeah well you can certainly get away with so much more when you care of when you earn those laughs and you can bring your characters I think farther to the line which I think you you know you've done consistently

in all the work which I think is remarkable how great is Alice and Jenny huh I mean a master class again yeah it was a master class you go down and run through and just how was she someone that you had to fight for I had actually written a pilot for her years ago, which it would have been she would be the lead.

And Moon Viss wanted no part of it. And they had a holding deal with her. So he had these preconceived notions of her from this other pilot? We didn't have problems casting her to play Anna Farris' mom. That wasn't the problem. When Anna left the show and it really became, Allison's show and that ensemble, you know, I thought it could have gone on for years and years and years. It was a great ensemble.

It was. And it was about something. CBS felt otherwise. Yeah, yeah. How do you feel about this memoir being out in the world? I'm a little nervous. Yeah. A little nervous.

There were moments when I go, you didn't need to do this. but at the same time it was somewhat cathartic you know it was also you know it was arduous to try and remember I've done a lot of damage to myself over the years so

a memoir which is based on memory is already suspect yeah you know well it's it's excellent I told you this yesterday I really love that I cannot wait to

get my hard copy. And I think you should be so proud of it. I really do. I think you should be so proud of it. And I am excited to see what you do next. I said, thank you for doing this. Thank you for inviting me. I think this is the perfect place for us to be. It was a really good call. I think so, yeah. This episode of Dinners on Me was recorded at DuPars in LA's Fairfax District. Next week on Dinner's on Me, you know him from industry, transparent, and now he's starring in the horror film Other Mommy. It's Jay Duplas.

We'll talk about becoming a dad later in life, making movies with his brother Mark, and the challenging experience of making a horror movie when you're actually terrified of horror movies. And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinner's On Me Plus. As a subscriber,

not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, they'll also be able to listen completely ad-free. Just click Try Free at the top of the Dineers. Dinners On Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinner's On Me is a production of Sony music entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay.

Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf. Sam Bear engineered this episode. Hans Dale She composed our theme music. Special thanks to Tamika Balance Kalasney and Justin McKita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. me next week.