Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Dr. Jill Biden – on Love, Loss, and Life in the White House

Episode Date: September 1, 2026

Former First Lady Dr. Jill Biden joins the show. Over burrata salad and cappelletti, Dr. Biden brings me behind-the-scenes of the final days in the White House. She also shared intimate details from her early days of dating President Joe Biden, her special relationship with sons Beau and Hunter, and shares the difficult moment she had recording the audio for her new memoir A View from The East Wing. This episode was recorded at Culina at The Four Seasons in Beverly Hills, CA. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Two and five Canadians will hear the words, you have cancer. That's why every step and dollar raised matters. On September 19th, join thousands in Toronto for the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation Walk. Challenge yourself, friends, and family to walk 21 kilometers in support of life-saving research. Together, we can carry the fire and help create a world free from the fear of cancer. Register today at pmcf walk.ca.ca. Some evil thing happened here. Three people die in a quiet suburb in Mississauga, Canada.

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I'm Amy Dempsey Raven. What Happened to the Harrisons is available now on The Binge. Search for it wherever you get your podcasts to start listening today. Subscribers to the Binge can listen to all episodes, all at once, ad free. Hey, it's Jesse. Today on the show, she's a teacher. She's also the author of the new memoir, View from the East Wing. But she also happens to be one of the former first ladies of the United States.

It's Dr. Jill Biden. But it wasn't until I got to the audiobook. You know, I was reading it, and I got to the point where there's the sentence, you know, my son was a drug addict. And I had never said that out loud. And I couldn't say it. I mean, I kept trying to say it. You'd written it, but she never said it. I mean, it was really, really hard.

This is Dinner's on Me, and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. So today I'm at Kulina at the Four Seasons in Beverly Hills. Think Italian with a California twist. There are handmade pastas and pizzas are coming out of the Neapolitan-style outdoor oven. The ingredients are thoughtfully sourced from local California farms and waters for that delicious crudo, along with authentic Italian delicacies. Now, today it's about 90 degrees, and if it wasn't, I'd be coaxing Dr. Biden out to eat on their lovely gardens surrounded by citrus trees, but it's a tad warm, so we're going to be eating

inside. Okay, she should be getting here any moment, so let's get to the conversation. How you doing? Well, I'm doing well. You've lived a life that we've all watched from, you know, the outside, and even these little morsels of decorating for the holidays and like planning your your granddaughter's wedding and like those little details about like going down to the kitchen and you know making yourself a cup of coffee like I I love that peek behind the curtain and I really love those moments in your book where you were talking about you know actually I got emotional when you're talking about the East Wing because that's something that doesn't exist anymore no and I mean I was thinking about it you know you

you are kind of documenting the last moments of what that was, a huge part of our history. Yeah. And describing your office and describing all of the portraits that you walked by of the first ladies. I mean, those moments I found really beautiful and inspiring. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was, you're right.

I mean, I was the last first lady, really, who worked in that office. and I love the East Wing. It was so beautiful. And so I, when we moved in there, it was the previous inhabitant had used the office to work in. Yes. So it was kind of dingy and dull, and I said, I can't bring people here. Look at this. So we called Mark Sykes, the interior designer.

Oh, my God. He does beautiful stuff and said, would you come in and redo this? And I want it to be, I want people to come in and feel that it's elegant, but to feel comfortable. Sure. Like they can sort of plop on the couch. And, I mean, had I known that this was going to happen, I mean, how would I know? But had I known, I would have purchased, like, everything in that office and taken it with me. Yeah.

But who knew? Who knew? Who knew? But let me tell you, the last day we were there. Now, and you can imagine this, somebody from the State Department called me and said, the last hours were in the White House. Jill, is there anything you want from the shelves? Because, you know, they sell things like glasses or pictures or vases, things like that. Yeah. And because, and I had like, I was like, and she was with her phone like, do you want this? Do you want this?

Do you want this? Because anything with the name Biden on it, the day or the day after we were out of office, they took and crushed everything. Yes. No. Yes. That's why she was saying, what do you want to buy? Because, and buy a full price by it. What do you want to buy?

buy. Full prize. Yeah, because Biden, the next administration coming in, is going to crush everything on these shelves. Oh, that's heartbreaking. Yeah. I mean, it's kind of almost rude and arrogant, right? Yes. Yes.

Wait, did this happen after Obama's administration as well? I don't know. You don't know. Okay. But they warned me it was happening during, after ours. Wow. And was there anything that you wanted? Oh, I bought tons of stuff. Oh, good. Yeah, and I give it as gifts or give it to my kids, my

grandkids, that sort of thing. But it's just like some of those rules were so archaic. Like I bought very few things because they were pretty expensive, you know, that foreign dignitaries would give to Joe and vice versa.

I thought the whole gift thing was ridiculous. And I said, why didn't we take the money that we would have spent, have a fund, every country in the world, and give it for food. for people who needed food, you know, have a fund and give it to countries that needed, you know, children who are starving. And the State Department said, no, you can't do that.

Nobody's going to adhere to that. And I thought, well, why not? If we start it, why won't they do it? I mean, it seems so logical to me. But even I was gifted a piece of shrapnel from the Ukraine war, and I didn't think anything of it. And I thought, well, this is kind of interesting. I'll keep this. And then the State Department said, oh, no, you won't.

I think they appraised that at $20,000. I'm like, you're crazy. That's just the journal going rate, it sounds like. Yeah. So anything at all, you know, that you were given. And then look at it now. It's like so crazy. Oh, here, here's a plane.

Yes. Well, I think that's a little bit over the $400 limit, but, you know. Right. It's wild. It's like crazy. Oh, that's so interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I find those, those, I mean, because I got to go to the White House as a guest,

and I was friendly with Brian Raffinalee when he was working there. And I, you know, I got to go a bit during, when you were a second lady, when you were there with the Obama presidency. And I got to go to the, you know, the dining room where they stamp the butter with the sea. Like, so all those things I just find to be so fascinating. game. And they had to replace the place card holders, which were brass eagles. They had to replace them with plastic because so many people were stealing.

You didn't steal anything, did you? I'm going to plead the fifth. No. No, I was given things. Like I was given, you know, like the M&Ms and I was given the Easter. And they're like, oh, what an Easterer. Like, I don't think I stole anything. Did I?

You have to admit it. We'll never know, will we? Yes, I'll never know. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Dr. Jill Biden opens up about the beginning of her remarkable love story with President Biden, from her initial skepticism about the guy in a suit and loafers, to the heartfelt moments that convinced her that she was ready to become a mother to his two young boys. All right, be right back. On days off from Jesus car superstar in London this past summer, we've been,

would head out to the English countryside for a little family reset. The boys were in heaven. They were running around, looking at farm animals, getting as muddy as possible. Justin was, you know, thriving, taking runs in the morning.

And I finally had an excuse to sit quietly with my Kendall for a few minutes without feeling guilty. Now, trips like this always remind me that vacations aren't exactly cheap. So here's something I really didn't think about until Airbnb. While you're away,

your home could actually be working for you when you list it on Airbnb. It's such a practical way to bring a little extra income and put it towards your own travel plans. And if the idea of hosting sounds intimidating, Airbnb has this great thing called the co-host network. It's made up of experienced local hosts who can help manage your listing, take care of your home, and help your guests have a great stay while you're away so you can enjoy your vacation without worrying about what's going on back home. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. One thing I can always count on with Beckett and Sully, if I make them a good sandwich, I know it's going to get eaten. And honestly, when you're packing lunches day after day, that is a win.

You want something your kids are excited about, but you also want to feel good about what you're sending them off with. That's why I love Boar's Head. At the deli counter, our favorites are freshly sliced and made with the quality I can count on. Their maple honey ham and maple honey turkey are made with premium whole cuts and crafted with 100% maple syrup and grade A golden honey. So you get great flavor along with quality protein to help fuel busy school days. Pair it with their American cheese made from a hand-selected blend of 100% all-natural cheddar. And you've got a lunch that's simple, delicious, and one they'll actually finish. For lunchtime inspiration, visit boarshead.com slash back to school.

They've got lots of kid-favored ideas to make packing lunches a little easier. And for Boar's Head, head to your local deli counter. Two and five Canadians will hear the words, you have cancer. That's why every step and dollar raised matters. On September 19th, join thousands in Toronto for the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation walk. Challenge yourself, friends, and family to walk 21 kilometers in support of life-saving research. Together, we can carry the fire and help create a world free from the fear of cancer.

Register today at pmcfwalk.ca. And we're back with more dinners on me. Yeah, I mean, I was really so moved and touched by yours and Joe's love story. I mean, and I knew some of it. Like I... I was to say, you probably knew it. I knew a little bit.

I didn't know some of the details. You know, I know the circumstances of when you met that he had just gone through his own major tragedy of losing his wife and daughter in a car accident and Bo and Hunter surviving that. And like, but I guess I didn't really, thank you so much. Oh, my goodness.

Sorry to interrupt. Good afternoon. How are we doing today? Good afternoon. Very good. My name is Jesus. I'm the executive chef here at the restaurant and the hotel, right? Yeah.

And we're just bringing you some lunch, you know, so you guys keep enjoying your chat. Thank you. Thank you. We have our house bread, a little bit of strachatella, some honeycomb. Funny story about the honeycomb. It's a great farmer that goes around the houses to capture all those wild bees and then he creates the honey here in the Ohio, a little bit of trouble paste.

We have a nice cleaning that chops out and then some yellowfin tuna with Casabistran Holmes. I know it looks great. Pistachio and- Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. But, you know, little details about like how, you know, you know, you know, you your perspective, like you said, this book is really your perspective, of entering that relationship,

knowing, you know, what this person had been through and putting up some parameters around how you wanted to enter the relationship and really kind of, like letting us peek behind the curtain of, like, what was going on emotionally for you when he wanted to marry you and you wanted to wait make sure that this was the right time. I mean, he proposed what? Five. Five times. Okay, yeah.

I mean, that I found, you know, and also your reasoning. I was like, as a parent myself, I was like, well, yes, this makes complete sense. I mean, you would want to make sure that you are the right person for these kids who had been through so much already. I mean, were moments like that, that felt so personal. I mean, those are the moments that I feel like, you don't. don't have to share with us, but you chose to, and it's what makes your book so special, but were there, was there complications

around sharing that with us? You know, not really, and that's one of the beautiful things I think about my becoming a wife and a mother. So you have to remember, I was 23 when I met Joe. He was in his 30s. And I was a scene. at the University of Delaware.

So can you imagine, I mean, here I am, student teaching, and, you know, going to the university. He calls me one Saturday. And, you know, I told this in the book. It was the 70s. And so the most of the guys that I dated had long hair, you know, clogs, bell bottoms. And he called me and asked me for a date. And he comes to the, and I accepted it. I mean, I had a date that I had to cancel.

Right. I remember that, yes. It's a good out of a previous engagement. Yes. And so he comes to the door because I thought, well, he might be interesting. You know, and so I opened the door and I took one look at his perfect suit and his leather loafers. And I thought, thank God this is only one date because I just couldn't imagine connecting with him. But we went out and, you know, he was really interesting and charming, as you probably know.

And I don't know. We started dating, like, right away. And actually, very quickly, the boys became part of our dates. And so I really, and Joe's okay with my saying this, but I really fell in love with the boys first. I mean, I just loved them so much. How old were they? They were seven and eight. Oh, they were young, yeah.

So I think they were five and six actually when we were dating. I mean, little, little boys, you know, just loving. And so, you know, Joe kept asking and asking, and I wasn't really ready to take on everything. And but then I felt like, I don't know. I mean, I love them so much. I felt that our marriage had to work. No matter what, we could never get divorced. Because they had already lost one mother through death.

And I could never hurt them by leaving, you know, by divorcing Joe. So I had to be absolutely sure. Yeah. And you know that yourself, you can't hurt your kids, you know? It's just like you can't hurt them. And even just knowing what the age was when they met, you know. That's how old my boys are now. Okay.

So, yeah, I understand that age and where kids are at that age and, like, what they need from you. Just love, right? Just love. But also, you know, they're also really intuitive in a way that I think sometimes we take for granted. They know what's going on. They ask questions that make you think, oh, God, they're more aware of things that are happening around us than I. anticipated. Well, and they were the ones that went in to Joe and said one morning when he was shaving, they said, Dad, we think we want to marry Jill. They said, we want to marry Jill? Yeah.

So that's when, you know, it started that Joe asked me and, and there we were in the altar, on the altar, the boys came right up and they, you know, when they say the part, you know, who gives this woman? And they marched right up, you know, we do. I mean, they were so proud and, and so, and the beautiful thing was, like, they called me Jill for maybe a month. And then one day, they came in, the bus was outside. And I said, come on, guys, the bus is here. And they said, okay bye mom and it was i didn't flinch i didn't make any sort of facial i said bye so you what did your heart do in oh my god it just was so beautiful and um and from that moment on they called me mom wow yeah it was like so much it was so natural and they played such a big

i mean they sort of were controlling like we weren't imposing anything on it they were like making all the decisions. You know, do we want Jill to be our mom? You know, are we going to call her mom? Like they didn't want it to be, oh, this is step this or step that. Like we were actually one of the first interviews we did, the boys, the person who was interviewing said to me something about, well, your stepchildren. And Beau said, excuse me, we don't say step in our children.

family. I mean, for a little boy to say that, like he didn't want any divisions in our family. He wanted, you know, they wanted unity. They wanted what they saw with other kids in school. And that's what was important. And that's why it's hard for me to explain that to people who, I don't know, I think if you're going through a divorce, it's different because you have a different mother and father to deal with then there's lots of tensions and everything. But in this case, it all happened so naturally. Right. And it just was like it was always meant to be.

Yeah. So anyway. Yeah, it's a very different set of circumstances when, you know, there's tragedy and that changes a family as opposed to, you know, just discourse. Uh-huh. Yeah. I mean, it's, I think that's something you've made very clear in your book is how tight your family unit is and how viciously you protect one another. Obviously, that's very obvious with you and Joe.

And even just the way you talk about, you know, his health now and, like, you know, how protective you are of him. And obviously, you know, your relationship with your boy. you know, with Bo's passing and with Hunter's addiction, like the way you fiercely protect them, but also I find so interesting, and I want to know how you navigate this as a parent, but being able to talk about that, knowing that your experiences with it are going to ultimately help other people who are going through similar circumstances. But also, when you do that, it costs you something. I can only imagine it costs you something to talk about your children in that way, especially, you know, Bo who passed away.

I mean, I is a parent. I tear up just even thinking about it. I know you can't even put your head there. I can't put my mind around losing a child. And you've spoken about it so eloquently and also in a way that has also provided you armor. You talk about how like no one can come close to you because you've been through that, which is such a, it's a perspective. that I'm sure many people might come to, but to hear that said out loud is really powerful. I mean, first of all, I'm so sorry for the loss that you had.

How do you protect yourself to that writing? And also, is there weight when you're writing that, putting it down on paper for prosperity? Well, you know, it was when I was writing my book and writing about Hunter's addiction, it was hard and but it wasn't until I got to the audio book that um you know I was reading it and I got to the point where there's the sentence you know my son was a drug addict and I had never said that out loud and I couldn't say it I mean I kept trying to say it you'd written it but she never said it I mean it was really really hard hard and I realized having been on this book tour and I realized it a little bit before but it was

too painful that I should have spoken out a little bit more as first lady about addiction but it was so painful to go through it I mean to live through it all those years and then I also had to remember like I have grandchildren now and if I had been out there speaking about it Would that have given them the freedom to speak about it freely, or would it trigger them for something that really affected their lives? And so I had to find that balance of what was going to work for them. But now Hunter is out and he's speaking openly about his addiction. I mean, he's – and people are really.

flocking to listen to him what he has to say but as a mother it's too it's too hard as his mother for me to listen to him say oh i did you know crack cocaine and whatever and the details and and um but i do feel that it's having an impact on people who are trying to find their way out of addiction and giving them hope that they can recover, just like Hunter did, because he was in the depths of despair. And how he lived after I read his book, I mean, I was just shocked that he was still living. Because we knew some of it,

but you know, you never know all of it, how much they're, what they're doing, what kind of drugs are doing, where they are. I mean, I don't know if you've had anybody in your family, but like they disappear. They're very good at disappearing. And then they show up and they look like they're fine. Like somehow they get themselves together and they walk in your house. Like they haven't been gone for like two months. And hey mom, you know, that kind of stuff.

And but then they leave. you find the vodka bottle underneath the sink or all that kind of stuff. And it's really hard to go through, I think, for the addict, but then the addict's family. I mean, your whole family supports. I mean, it's why Al-Anon exists so that people who are going through that have a place to go for support as well. I mean, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When you became second lady and then first lady, did you feel a shift as a teacher?

And when you went into work, was there... Mm-hmm. I mean, did people treat you differently? No, no, no. Because I was at the same school, number one. Right. But community college. but there was a lot more security

and when I was second lady the men and women in Secret Service would just dress down and wear jeans or something and be outside my door and nobody really paid much attention to them because they'd be sitting there talking or have a book or whatever but his first lady

it's so funny because my name was not on the roster for security reasons. So nobody knew that I was going to be their teacher. So the first day of class, they come in and they have their book bags and everything, and they had to put it, you know, through the magnetometer. Sorry to interrupt. Okay. And they were like.

Thank you. Thank you so much. Gorgeous. Yeah. What's that? Yeah. So this is our one of our signature pastas, which is filled with the brace licks and a little bit of balsamic vinegar.

and then we make the sauce with a lot of pistachio and spinach. It's very good. Yes. That's great. Yeah. Krispy leaks as well. Super good. You know, you have a hard to doer chicken.

Thank you. And then stone fruit. It's in peak of the season. Tomatoes and stove fruit. Oh, this is beautiful. Thank you. So they, you know, they would put their, they were like, what's going on? What's going on?

And I said to them, don't worry. They're not looking for drugs in your book bags. Right. They're looking for guns. and they said, oh, thank God they're not looking for drugs. Because they had drugs. Because they had drugs. Yeah, yeah.

They probably had, you know, well, I know a lot of them had drugs in their book bags. But anyway, it was funny. And the first day, you know, they were like, oh, my gosh, look who my English teacher is. By the second day, they were like so totally cool. Like, totally cool about it. Yeah. I mean, even right now, that's right outside this room. There is an entourage.

Well, a smaller entourage, actually. And they're being very respectful of the patrons. Very, yes. Yes. Yes. No, they're great. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Dr. Biden shares what it was like balancing her two lives. One is an English teacher at a community college and the other as First Lady of the United States. She also opens up about life after the public office and how she's, she keeps her late son Boe at the front of her mind.

Okay, be right back. On days off from Jesus Car Superstar in London this past summer, we would head out to the English countryside for a little family reset. The boys were in heaven. They were running around, looking at farm animals, getting as muddy as possible. Justin was, you know, thriving, taking runs in the morning. And I finally had an excuse to sit quietly with my Kindle for a few minutes without feeling guilty.

Now, trips like this always remind me that vacations aren't exactly cheap. So here's something I really didn't think about until Airbnb. While you're away, your home could actually be working for you when you list it on Airbnb. It's such a practical way to bring a little extra income and put it towards your own travel plans. And if the idea of hosting sounds intimidating, Airbnb has this great thing called the co-host network. It's made up of experienced local hosts who can help manage. your listing, take care of your home, and help your guests have a great stay while you're away so you can enjoy your vacation without worrying about what's going on back home.

Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. One thing I can always count on with Beckett and Sully, if I make them a good sandwich, I know it's going to get eaten. And honestly, when you're packing lunches day after day, that is a win. You want something your kids are excited about, but you also want to feel good about what you're sending them off with. That's why I love Boar's Head. At the deli counter, our favorites are freshly sliced and made with the quality I can count on.

Their maple honey ham and maple honey turkey are made with premium whole cuts and crafted with 100% maple syrup and grade A golden honey. So you get great flavor along with quality protein to help fuel busy school days. Pair it with their American cheese made from a hand-selected blend of 100% all-natural cheddar. And you've got a lunch that's simple, delicious, and one they'll actually finish. For lunchtime inspiration, visit boarshead.com slash back to school.

They've got lots of kid-favored ideas to make packing lunches a little easier. And for Boar's Head to your local deli counter. Support for today's episode comes from Square. I spend a lot of my time in neighborhood cafes and restaurants, and one place I'm always popping into is my local blue bottle coffee. They use Square, and every visit is just

It's so easy. The line moves quickly. Paying takes seconds. My receipt shows up instantly, and then I'm just out the door with my coffee. It's one of those little things you don't think about until you realize just how much smoother it makes the whole experience. I've noticed that's true at a lot of the restaurants we feature on this show, too. Square helps keep everything running behind the scenes, from orders and payments to online ordering, reporting, and team management. It's all in one system. So whether you're opening your first cafe or growing into your next restaurant location, Square grows with your business. If you're starting a business or already running one and looking for better tools,

Square helps you sell, manage, and grow without slowing down. Right now you can get up to $200 off Square hardware when you sign up at Square.com slash go slash JTF. That's SQ-U-A-R-E dot com slash geo-slash. RUN Your Business Smarter with Square. Get started today. And we're back with more dinners on me. When you think back on your career is a politician, specifically. And if I'm remembering correctly, Joe ran for president for the first time in 88.

Am I right? That's correct. Okay. So, you know, that's in and out of like a very high profile facet of being a politician for a long time, 30 years almost. Right? About. Who, Joe? Who's a politician for over 50?

I mean, you have a fault of politician, but like to be even like in a conversation president of the United States. Yeah, yeah. I mean, how do you, like, do you ever look back on that wave that you rode with him and think like that? is a wild crazy thing. And also, do you ever feel now that you're out of that wave? Are you always going to feel like you're... Part of the wave? Mm-hmm.

I think you're always part of the wave because you're always in the public eye. Mm-hmm. I mean, people recognize you, you know, your privacy is not like before, but somewhat diminished. Yeah. But I don't, you know, it just, I don't, and it's hard for people to believe, I know, but it all felt so natural like it was meant to be. And when Joe decided to run in 87, and then he got out and thank God because he had two aneurysms in 1988, I mean, he would have died.

on the campaign trail. And so sometimes, you know, when bad things happen, I mean, I can't explain for everything, believe me, but sometimes you look back and you think, wow, you know, there was a reason that that happened. And I look back like at my first marriage and how horrible it was for me to go through that divorce and I lost all my confidence. but I think to myself, thank you God. I mean, you were looking out for me because if I had stayed there...

Oh, can you imagine? I never would have three children. You know, I never would have had the life I've had my husband. And sometimes fate intervenes, right, at the right time. And I feel like a lot of my life has been that fate, has followed that faith. Yeah. You are, I mean, I hope I don't stumble over this question, but even you've been so open about how hard it was for you when, with the, with Joe's last debate and having to withdraw from, you know, the candidacy. And like, I mean, I know you've answered it.

You talk about it very eloquently in your book, and you've also answered this question so many times. But I guess what I want to know, it sort of like circles back to what you were just saying about being in flowing and, you know, sort of acknowledging that things happen for a reason. But what did that moment teach you about like letting go? And, you know, I, that moment, I can't explain it. I mean, I thought about it so much. And at that moment, and I wrote this in the book, that I thought Joe was, you know, having a stroke. And then when he got off stage and he was checked out by the doctors

and the doc said he's fine. And then we went on that night to do three different events. That's the thing that really surprised me. Three events. And here we get on Air Force One for our last event. We fly to North Carolina. get off the plane at three in the morning. Full band playing, lights, hundreds of people.

We're walking on the tarmac, shaking hands. A week or 10 days later, he's at the NATO conference. It was like so surreal to think back on that. Like, what happened? What happened? And I can't explain it. And I know, you know, Joe had been traveling. I know he was at debate camp.

I was out on the trail. So I wasn't with him at all before the debate. I was campaigning. And to this day, I don't have an explanation. And I know, you know, 20 years from now, and I'm a crispy critter, you know, historians are still going to be like, what happened? You know, was it he was drugged? Was it a medical emergency?

I don't think we'll ever know. I don't think we'll ever know. I mean, I related to the moment when I heard your perspective of it. But just as someone who is worried about their spouse and cares about a loved one and knows that that's such a big moment. and there's all these eyes on him and there's going to be so many opinions written about it. It's like everything flashes before you so quickly.

And I was just thinking like what would I do in that situation as the person who is closest to this person who is struggling and to also protect them with those after moments. So the moments when he gets off stage and he's feeling like, I really messed up. I can't fathom it, honestly. No, you can't. Yeah, you can't.

You know, so many times it's in life, like it's just too hard to put yourself in somebody else's shoes because you have no frame of reference, like something like that would happen, or like with the death of a child. I mean, you can't go there in your head. I mean, you have no frame of reference and because it's just so far into you, right?

Yeah. But I want to ask just like how you deal with specifically grief now, having space away from it. I mean, is it something that just gets different, or is it something for you that changes, or is it something that gets easier? I mean, or is it even categorizable? Well, Jesse, I have to tell you, it never leaves you.

The grief is always there. And I always say you never know what's behind someone's smile. And people meet me and think, oh, isn't her like great and so glamorous and this and that, and it is. But underneath it all, you know, I wake up every morning. thinking about Bo saying that prayer and missing him. And especially with Joe's cancer diagnosis now, I just, I'm like, Bo, where are you? I need you now.

Where are you? And he's part of my life. It's not like it's something you ever get over. it's not something that time helps heal. You just learn how to incorporate it in your own life and learn to go on. And you can't love somebody that much. You just can't. And then have them go out of your life.

You always have to feel that they're there with you. And that's how I feel every day. And, you know, in some ways, it's, you know, his children, I'm very close to his kids, Natalie and Hunter, and I see so much a beau in them. And they bring me so much joy because I see Bo's spirit in them. So I'm close to them, and I don't know, I just, Bo's with me. Yeah. You know, he's just not walking in the front door. Yeah, yeah.

That's beautiful. Thank you. I really, I'm so happy you did this. I'm so happy you were wanting to sit down and talk to me a little bit about your book, but also just in the few moments that I've had with you over the past, I don't know, eight, ten years that I've gotten to be around you, just in very small moments. I have always just really appreciated how open and lovely and generous you are with your time. Thank you for doing this.

Well, I've appreciated our friendship, too. Thank you. Thank you. Thanks for doing this. Thanks. I appreciate it. Thank you. This episode of Dinners on Me was recorded at Cullino Restaurant at the Four Seasons Hotel in Beverly Hills, California.

Next week on Dinner's on Me, he's the Emmy and Tony winning comedian behind Just for us, and now starring and writing on Peacock's The Paper, it's Alex Edelman. We talk about making the jump from stand-up to sitcoms, learning from comedy legend, and finding humor and everything from Broadway to the White House Correspondence Dinner. And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinner's On Me Plus.

As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, they'll also be able to listen completely ad-free. Just click try free at the top of the Dinners On Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinner's On Me is a production, of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson.

It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf. Sam Bear engineered this episode. Hans Dale She composed our theme music. Special thanks to Tamika Balance Kalasni and Justin McKita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.

Two and five Canadians will hear the words, you have cancer. That's why every step and dollar raised matters. On September 19th, join thousands in Toronto for the Princess Margaret Cancer Foundation Walk. Challenge yourself, friends, and family to walk 21 kilometers in support of life-saving research. Together, we can carry the fire and help create a world free from the fear of cancer. Register today at pmcfwalk.ca.ca.