Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Elizabeth McGovern — on ‘Downton Abbey’ fame, and what she learned from iconic Hollywood bombshell Ava Gardner

Episode Date: September 16, 2025

‘Downton Abbey: The Grand Finale’ star Elizabeth McGovern joins the show. Over Greek snapper, Elizabeth tells me about her critically acclaimed play ‘Ava: The Secret Conversations,’ which she adapted and stars in. We talk about what inhabiting the Hollywood femme fatale taught her. We also discuss her first series regular gig at age 49 as the iconic Cora Crawley in the hit franchise ‘Downton Abbey’, getting an Oscar nomination at age 20 for ‘Ragtime,’ and how director Robert Redford changed production for her Juilliard studies during ‘Ordinary People.’ The episode was recorded at Estiatorio Milos in Hudson Yards, New York City. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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I think on my tombstone, it will read on hiatus. No. This is Dinner's on Me, and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. I, once again, since I'm in New York, City, rode my bike up, this time to the area known as Hudson Yards. I'm so excited to be here to sit down and have a lunch with Elizabeth McGovern. We're both on stage this evening, so we're having a light pre-show meal together. I have been admiring Elizabeth McGovern's career for so long.

Obviously, I saw her in her very first film, Ordinary People, which is a classic. but I recently became a fan of hers in the series Downton Abbey, which I think the rest of the world became a fan of hers in as well. She is on stage right now in a play that she wrote and stars in called Ava, the Secret Conversations. It will be close to her in New York by the time this podcast comes out, but there will be runs of it in Chicago and Toronto. It's absolutely wonderful. Hi.

Hello. Gorgeous. Hello. I'm sitting here at STO. Oriomylos. It's in Hudson Yars, as I said. I'm staring at a display of glistening fish that looks so fresh. Yeah, one actually just winked at me. Sunlight is pouring through the floor to ceiling windows. It's bouncing off the marble staircase that we've just wandered up. It feels like a little slice of grease, except instead of the Aegean Sea, we've got the Hudson River

and the giant copper beehive known as the vessel as our background. It feels like a perfect place for Elizabeth McGovern, it's elegant, it's worldly, it's just a little unexpected, sitting above an incredible mall. This is not a hide-in-the-corner kind of restaurant. This is a, let's sit in the middle of the action while we talk about escaping Hollywood and landing happily in Chiswick kind of spot. The energy is warm and buzzy, and the food is impossibly fresh, which is exactly what you want when you're eating fish. I'm so excited to be waiting for the one and only Elizabeth McGovern. Oh, I think I just saw her walk-in.

All right, let's get to the conversation. How are you? I'm fine, thank you. Very excited. Yeah, I'm excited to have you. I saw the show on Sunday. You did? I did, yeah.

Oh, isn't that nice of you? Because you are busy. I'm busy, but I was excited to see it. Yeah. No, I can see matinees, which is great. Right, good. Oh, you have no matinees. No, because I'm doing Shakespeare in the Park in the Delicourt,

so we don't do daytime performances. I know. It's healing me. I know. And I love that play. It's my seventh time doing Shakespeare in the park. Oh, is it? So it's sort of my home.

It's where I got my equity card. Well, I'm impressed seven times. Seven times, yeah. Do you do Shakespeare? I've done 12th night, twice. Would you play? Viola, twice. Twice.

And I was looking at it again, thinking, oh, now I know how to do it. It's that kind of thing you can keep doing. And then you just kind of get it right the last time. I'm now circling back, and there's roles in Shakespeare plays that I've done that I want to do different parts in. What was it like for you to tackle the same part with some space in between? I just, well, I feel that way doing the play that I'm doing right now because we've done it before the same production. Right, I want to ask about that.

It's just such a nice thing to start on day one, and it's already kind of in your bones in terms of knowing it. So a lot of that stress is gone, and then you can just go deeper. Yeah. I mean, what drew you to Ava Gardner's story in the first place? I know it's based on a book, is it? It's a book. It's a book that was collecting dust on my shelf in my house in London for years. And I just happened to pick it up one day.

I mean, literally, that is the story. And I started leaping through it, and I just thought, this is so interesting. that a woman is trying to come to terms with her life at the end of her life. And she's doing it with a guy who's hired to try to write her story for her so that that kickstarts an interesting relationship right from the start

because the two of them are journeying toward intimacy in the same way that a romantic relationship takes a journey toward intimacy. and there's stops and starts, but basically you're going to a place where you really start to know each other. And then I thought since she's thinking back and trying to come to terms with all the romantic relationships of her life, I wanted to try to sort of do a parallel story. Yes. How are you today? Welcome to me, live.

Hi. Hello. How are you? Thank you for heaven. Can I offer you some water? Do you have any preference? Do you want sparkling or still? Still is my preference?

I would take still as well. First time, Amelos? Yes, this is my first time. I'm welcome. I highly recommend sharing. Some of our highlights. If you like to have a let a try,

Chagri-Electicus with a letter Fava spread. Milos special, thinly sliced zucchini Aklan, with a letter Tadiki spread on the side, some fried saganike cheese. I would love to get a

Greek salad, if that's okay. Yeah, me too. I like that. Yeah, maybe we could share that. Well, it says serves too. Perfect. We're going to eat. Two will eat that.

And then I would love to like some fish. Do you like, do you fish? I do fish. Yeah. Like maybe a fish that we could share. Would you like to try the Greek snapper, the flagging? I'm happy to try that. I think there's something in your eyes that's telling us that's the way to go.

Yeah, but we're going to trust you. It's a quite unique fish. Yeah. I'm happy to try that. try it. Okay. Yeah. We'll both be on equal putting tonight on stage. Exactly, exactly. Well, I'll text you to see how you're fairing. How's that fish

sitting? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, a side with the fish, maybe. Sure, aside with the fish, sure. Mixed broccoli, cauliflower or rumination. Let's do that. Perfect. You're talking about a parallel. Oh, yeah. What was I? I know. I don't always happen when we go in. Right? Yeah. Oh, oh, yeah.

We're because Ava Gardner was famous for marriages. I thought, let's go through the arc of these marriages and have a parallel arc of her and her biographer so that there's these two stories that are kind of hopefully playing out at the same time. And so we learn about her past, but we also get swept up hopefully

in the ongoing. story of her and the biographer. And I want to see, like, what happens between them. And what's so wonderful. I should also say that you wrote this as well. Well, I adapted it. Yeah. That's still a huge achievement to adapt something for the stage. Well, thank you.

But what I love the devices she've used is that the biographer who plays Peter Evans is the biographer's name and the actor is... Aaron Costaghanis. Thank you. Who's so wonderful. He also inhabits all of the husbands. Exactly.

And that was such a wonderful surprise. You know, Mickey Rooney and, of course, Frank Sinatra, and then the middle husband that everyone always forgets about. Artie. Yeah, Artie Shaw. Yeah. Artie Shaw. Who she was ironically married to, I think, the longest, right? Oh, I don't know.

No, I think she's married to Frank. Oh, okay. Frank the longest. Okay. But he's so wonderful. And so, and it's such a beautifully designed show as well, that the flashbacks are really striking on. I'm glad to hear that. I mean, I kind of wish you could watch it from the audience. I know, I always

wish I could. You know, because I have no idea what's going on. Yeah. Yeah. And her heyday and, like, Mrs. Mickey Rooney. And then the color palette is just really stunning. I mean, oh, I'm so pleased. Your director, Moses, right? Yeah. Maritz on Shatnoggle. Moritz, yes. Yeah, I mean, fantastic director. Yeah, I saw Hand to God, which is one of my favorite plays. He's Such a great director, Maritz. But I, yeah, I think that parallel relationship is really, I mean, it's the heart of the play. Yeah. I mean, you talked a little bit about it, but just, you know, how different and how we've grown as a culture and how we have treated women specifically.

And also the way we view a Hollywood bomb show. I think a lot about, I was thinking a lot when I was watching your play about Pamela Anderson. Uh-huh. And how she's also had this evolution of like she has this, she's rooted in this very specific place in our memory. You know, with her, with her Roll in Baywatch in the 80s. And now she's emerging and people are feeling she's having this resurgence and like she's having a comeback. And, you know, she's becoming, she's an actress that we're respecting in a different way. Completely.

Doing it on her terms. Right. But I find it also, I find it interesting because, I mean, she has always been there. She's always been, like, in the background of the past 30 years. Like, she's always been the person she is. Exactly. Yeah. Like, it's interesting that almost like culture reclaims.

her, are taking ownership of this moment for her. Yeah. And I just, it strikes me as very strange that, you know, we are like, as a culture saying, like, we have deemed that she is relevant now

in these ways. But it's, I've been watching, you know, as she's in, you know, doing press for naked gun and she's such a big star right now of this moment and in this relationship apparently with Liam Neeson. And it's like, it feels very practically like those old Hollywood stories do and it's it's just interesting to me that it feels

like the culture is sort of like yeah yeah we helped bring that along yeah yeah well I guess the question to ask is would she be enjoying this if she hadn't gone full 100% into the blonde the boobs the male fantasy right personified just on what has now become a parent, which is she is incredibly talented person. But if she hadn't gone that route, she would probably be Pamela Anderson at the Oregon Shakespeare Festival being a very, very wonderful actress.

Yeah, yeah. So she had to sort of play that game. Right. which she did. And I mean, I, to me, it's a beautiful story because she has now seized it and is doing what she wants with it. And for me, that is a very happy thing to see.

I suppose if she didn't have the talent that she has, she never could have done that. Right. I mean, that was there. That was always been there. That's what I'm saying. It's like it's always been there. Yeah.

Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we return, Elizabeth shares how Robert Redford helped her in her early career. We share our love of Mary Tyler Moore and getting her first series regular role on the PBS mega hit Downton Abbey at age 49. Okay, be right back. After a morning Pilates class, I am sweaty, I am tired, and I need something that's going to refuel me fast. That's when I head straight to tropical smoothie cafe. Their peanut paradise smoothie is my go-to. It's got 22 grams of protein, it's freshly blended, and it tastes like a vacation in a cup.

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What was, what was Hollywood like for you as a preteen teenager? So I think that's in a way why I always had quite an independent spirit, which I do appreciate in retrospect. Because even though I was in L.A., my family literally never even went to the movies. I mean, they were kind of anachronistic. They were both teachers. So I didn't feel like I grew up in Hollywood culture at all. But I think because of that, it gave me the freedom to not have any kind of desperation about being successful.

I mean... Oh, it's so good. Thank you. It's incredible. Thank you. What was your introduction into the show business? Did you start off doing theater? Like, how did you?

The luckiest thing that ever happened to me, as I was sort of just a, I feel like I was sort of almost underwater in the public junior high school. And I don't know what instinct it was. of my parents, but they decided to send me to this more sort of artsy-fartsy in those days school called the Oakland School, which is, I think, now quite an academic school. But when I went there, it was very hippie-dippy kind of.

And I feel like I really came to life there. I feel like that's almost like being, it was like being born. And then I immediately became best friends with this absolutely wonderful person with long, blonde hair, who completely looked like a girl, but he was a boy. And he was called Todd Haynes, who's become Todd Haynes, the director. And my friendship with him. You guys went to grade school together? We were 14.

Oh, my God, amazing. We both started our first day at Oakwood School together. and he was the other he was the new guy and I was the new girl and we lived very close to each other in the San Fernando Valley and he was just

a being that was just an artist you know he just in every four of his body and it was like a sort of earthquake for me I just I just kind of

absolutely fell in love with him and then we would do plays and where did it go from like just sort of this interest in creating with your new friend Todd to, you know, having a Hollywood audition and having opportunity. So that was just another really strange thing. There was a school production of skin of our teeth.

Remember that born to a wilder? And one of the guys who was doing the lights, his father or mother, was friendly with a Hollywood agent, whose name was Joan Scott, who came to the play. And she left a message with the school office, which they then handed to me saying, call me up if you ever want to pursue acting as a career. I was graduating that year, looking at colleges, and they were doing massive auditions for this movie that was called Ordinary People. Yes.

They saw maybe like, I don't know, five million high school kids for that. And I just went in on one of the massive auditions and then kept coming back and that was... That was your first audition? Yeah. How old were you? I was 18.

Okay. Wow. So it took me like the rest of my life to learn that it wasn't that easy. Yeah. And, you know, I did. Yeah. And I think it was like, in some ways,

there was a sort of added pain or poignancy to then the later rejection because then there's this element of, I had an opportunity that I either screwed up or went away. Or like, there's an added sort of frisson of failure about that. And that I have faced. Because you hadn't faced it yet. No, I hadn't faced it. And to me, that felt almost worse than someone going, oh, I'm going to try to be an actor and like, okay, it didn't work out.

Because you've tasted what it can be. Yeah, yeah. I had this chance. And then either I blew it or maybe for whatever reason, it's gone away. Right. So that was, but I definitely deeply experienced that. Yeah, I bet. I think anyone who's been in the career will relate to.

There's this idea that this moment going to come, and it's your chance. And somehow you have to capitalize on it. And that's why I think a lot of people become quite miserable when they're in hits. I mean, I think it was a possible trap with us doing Downtown Abbey because that was a show that went huge. And we were all just loving each other, getting along, working so well as an ensemble cast. But then once it becomes huge, you think some people are exploding and other people aren't.

And I'm somehow not making the most of this. Right. It's that kind of peripheral anxiety that has nothing to do with that initial feeling of warmth and camaraderie and passion that you feel for the actual work itself. Right. It's a trap. I know where Skipper you had a little bit, but Downton Abbey specifically, I mean, was a show that I think surprised everyone.

You know, it was a show that here in the States we were watching on PBS, which is not a network where, you know, hits are made. Really? The public podcast. Not historically. No, not historically. But that was, you know, everyone all of a sudden was like figuring out how to renew their PBS subscription because they were hooked to downtown abbey and like it was this massive cultural moment and

you know i was doing modern family at that time and we were seeing you all at the Emmys and i was i remember being fascinated it's like oh my gosh that's what these people look like in real life and like you know you know i was used to seeing him and all this period grab but i mean i was swept into the the the magic of that show as well like i adore downtown abbey um after ordinary people, when did you start Juilliard in that process? So I had auditioned for Juilliard and I was applying for

regular college as well. Yeah. And I did get into Juilliard at around the same time that I got the part in ordinary people. So it was then another

just... Mix salad you like you? Delicious. Absolutely. I mean, It's amazing. It just looks like a tomato, but there's something about it that is... It's so sweet and delicious. Yeah, it's incredible.

Thank you. I don't understand how you do that. You can leave... I don't think we're... Do you want bread? No. You could take this bread if you want to make some room for... Yeah, but let's have...

We're going to keep the salad. I agree. We're going to keep our microphones, and we're going to keep the salad, and we're going to keep the water. We're happy. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. You can, too.

You can... Switch out my plate, sure. So, I was going to say, if there was, like, ever, like, a moment we're like, well, we're not sure if we're going to accept Elizabeth into Julia. Well, she did just lay on ordinary people. Let's let her in. Let's let her. I don't know.

Actually, no, I don't think they think that way. In fact, I don't think I mentioned it to anybody. Yeah, yeah. No, the thing that was, because they, in those days, I think it's probably changing now. In those days, like, they don't have anything to do with movies and TV. They're the theater. Right.

I'm sure that's not true anymore. But, no, it was Robert Redford because he was directing it. And I remember having an initial meeting with him and saying, I'm really, I don't know what to do because I have this, I've got, I've applied for school and I've gotten in. And I don't know whether I should go to school or do the movie because, of course, it's not a huge part in a movie. It's only five days, but he said, listen, you go to school and we'll just schedule around you. And he actually flew me up whenever I had a weekend off and we shot those scenes. I mean, that's such a caring thing to me. He seems like...

He's an 18-year-old kid. Yeah. I love that he flew up, but it was sort of as... Did he seem like a father figure? I don't know about that, but I... I mean, I've always felt so grateful to him for his kindness and gentleness. And every time I've seen him since then, which hasn't been a lot, that's reaffirmed that feeling I have about him.

Very caring, sensitive person. And Mary Tyler Moore, at that moment, well, I mean, she's an icon, was an icon, was such a cultural phenomenon. Yeah, she was. Absolutely. I got to work with her at the end of her life, actually. Oh, really? I did an episode of Hot in Cleveland,

which is a sitcom that Betty White was on. And so she must have brought Mary in. The whole Mary Tyler Moore cast was a guest star on the show. On just one episode. One episode. It was Georgia Engel. That must have been emotional. It was incredible.

And Mary was not... I actually, I'm almost welling up, thinking of it. Because I watched every single one of those shows. Same. Yeah, of course. And so I was offered a guest spot on this episode that just happened to have the entire Mary Tyler Moore guest cast as a guest cast for this episode. That's like, there is no way I'm turning this part down.

Like, how do I make this work? I am so grateful for that week. It was incredible. I didn't get to talk to Mary Tyler Moore too much, but I, just even being in her presence on the day that we were shooting was very emotional, watching them all connects. And also, like, fall into their old patterns of, like, you know, Clarissa Leachman was annoying everyone. And Georgia Ingle was like, we got to move on. And Betty White was like, you know, like TikTok, like, time is money. And Mary Tyler Moore was just like, you know, happy to be there.

It was very. I wonder how long it had been since they'd seen. each other. It had been a while from what I gathered. And did she and Betty keep up their friendship? Or had they, were they kind of reconnecting or do you know? It seems that they were, it's interesting. I was, I was very tuned into watching, like, when one would enter for the first time, because, you know, I was there on day one. And so I was like, I want to watch them see each other for the first time. Because it probably's been a while. Yeah. And all I could see was just a lot of love between everyone.

Like, there was no, like, Mary, Betty, like none of that. When downtown Abbey came around, you were always working and you're doing theater and you have an incredible music career. So you're doing so many things that I'm sure fill you in so many different ways.

But to sort of be back in that routine of being in front of a camera and specifically, I guess, it probably was one of the things, I imagine one of the things that you did that had to consider, I mean, had you ever been a part of a show that, like, you were playing the same role for multiple years? No.

I'd never been in a series before. Yeah, and I did feel like, there was a kind of a big change in my life, which I did feel going to England, at which I was, I knew on some level it was another gift that I could not. reject was the gift of starting a family with somebody who wanted to as much as I did and and everything as you know that that gives you and yet for me it felt like I was doing it but I was having to give up this other path that I was on because it even though I knew kind of theoretically it wasn't entirely the case but it just felt like physically put including myself in England, which I was determined to do because my husband had a job there and it was secure and so it felt like the right place to have kids.

And when did you move to England? It was in 1991. Yeah. And so, but it did feel at the times like I was literally starting in terms of a profession from scratch. Oh, here's best. Oh, my God. Oh, my God.

You're a Greek snap with... My God. That's gorgeous. Can I just pray for you? Yeah, that's great. I would love for you to just put it on an update for me. Yeah, thank you. When you first moved to England and you were obviously focusing on it having a family

and did we were able to juggle career at that time as well? Did you take a hiatus? I was always, I mean, you know, I think on my tombstone, it will read on hiatus, no. Because I was always like looking for work, but it was, you know, sort of an enforced hiatus. Yeah. But it was nice.

I mean, I had genuinely a lot of time with my children when they were little. And I think it was some angel saying, You should be here for your kids now. Thank you. Thank you. It looks so good. This is perfect. That's exactly what I wanted.

Good choice restaurant. Gorgeous. Right. Oh, my God. It's really good. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. After the break, we get her reaction on getting an Oscar nomination at age 20 for the 1981 film Ragtime, and we discuss her band, which she's been making music with for over 20 years.

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then immediately alerts their professional monitoring agents. Those agents can step in instantly, talking to the person through two-way audio, triggering sirens and spotlights, even requesting police dispatch before anyone gets inside. It's real security that lets me focus on my work and my guests and my own life, knowing that my home is covered. Visit simplysafe.com slash jessey to claim 50% off a new system. That's S-I-M-P-L-I-S-A-F-E dot com slash Jesse. There's no safe like SimplySafe. And we're back with more dinners on me. Can we talk about ragtime a little bit?

Oh, go on you. First of all, all, all right, so you were in the movie Ragtime. That's why I'm asking about it for listeners who wanted to know why I just brought up Ragtime. Random. A movie for 1983. It nominated for an Oscar. It was right after Ordinary People, right?

Yeah. You were a Juilliard at this point. I was. I left to do the movie. You left to do Racken. Yeah. Do you... Okay, so I'm interested in, like,

you spoke about ordinary people being this audition. You audition for it. You got it. It was, you didn't really have a history of disappointment. was the next big thing, ragtime, that you audition for? Wow. Okay. So with rag time, so you left you left you there to do rag time.

I mean, of course I want to ask about what it feels like for a 20-year-old to process getting an Oscar nomination. It feels like as exciting as all these things are, a little destabilizing. Yeah. Do you know what? It felt wrong. Put wrong. Even to me. I mean, mostly to me.

I was like, this is ridiculous. It doesn't make any sense, and I don't deserve it, is what I felt. It was my second job. I didn't know what I was doing. Right. I mean, I think it was like the first time it dawned on me that these things are not about deserving them or merit or, I mean, Maybe sometimes they are, but it's a thing that's about something else.

It feels separate. It's about keeping the kind of the business thing working. Right. I mean, I thought that later. I was doing some reading on Ava, and I think it was Harry Cohn. I'm going to say this, and of course, get every detail wrong. So I'm going to preface it. He had this idea that he would keep disgruntled,

actors happy by giving them an award every year. And that was the start of the Academy Awards. I love that. Because he wanted them to do what he wanted them to do. Right. It's like a doggy biscuit. Let's look into this when this is done. Yeah, I love that.

I think it was Mary Cohn. And now it's become such a thing. It completely works. It's honestly it worked. We buy it. We buy it. We do. It's our only way of saying.

This is funny. You'll appreciate this. So I know downtown Abbey won a Saga Award. I know we were at that ceremony several times together. I feel like we were on that circuit. Uh-huh. And I think one year we won comedy and you all went drama. We were lucky enough as a cast to win that award four times, which is, I think, I think for a comedy who ended up being a record. I think it is.

I think ER maybe won that many times for drama. But maybe not consecutively. I don't know. There's some sort of record that we have. I don't know. And Aubrey, again, my daughter on the show, she was three when she was cast on the show. And so Aubrey came out to the show

and was like winning SAG Awards immediately. Yeah. She was part of the cast. But with the SAG Awards, it's like it's the entire acting ensemble gets the award. So on her first season, she was winning, I think she won, we won, four times she won the third and fourth time we won she won a sackboard and i remember sitting

on the fifth year that we were nominated again we were sitting next to edie falco and her table i don't maybe she was there for nurse jackie and edie i don't know her super well but she's like a down-to-earth new yorker like she's my people that doesn't surprise me yeah and we lost the show we lost the award and Aubrey she's a child you know she's six years old or something starts crying and Edie just goes get used to a kid

yeah looking that scared like it was so funny but also so true I don't know it's just like when we were talking about you know the this idea that awards are there to keep us happy

it's like yeah because even as like a six year old But she was, you know, she knew that, like, that was disappointing not to get it this time. The awards thing is a very strange facet to this industry. Can I ask a little bit about your music? Okay, yes, please. I love it. First of all, were you always someone who was interested in songwriting and?

No, I grew up in a family in which my brother was the musician. He was a sort of poddagee piano player And so I never felt like, and quite rightly, that I had any talent And I was right about that But it was only later when this period when my kids were small And I was just kind of looking for something to do That I went back to take guitar lessons I'd taken them like most kids do when they're young

And I'd always kind of played but I just decided to have something to do. I called up a local guy who's at I'd seen in the local paper, and he started giving me guitar lessons. And we'd get together once a week, and I started just writing songs that we'd play. And then he would write songs, and then we started playing them together.

And then, kind of long story short, We took these songs to his brother who was interested in recording and is an absolutely amazing guitar player and his brother put together a band and the three of us started this band which is still the band. This is now like 20 years ago.

Yeah. Do you play an instrument? I play a little bit of guitar. I played guitar when I was a kid. I played a little bit of piano, but I can't sit down and just, go and my son is now he was taking piano lessons for a little while we do have a piano in our house

and it was inspiring me to maybe get back into it and try there's this thing about and I've met you're like the third person I've met that has talked about picking up an instrument that they only played a little bit and like really not necessarily mastering it but becoming more proficient at it just putting themselves into it and I feel like there's a thing with like when you become a certain age like oh it's too late we were talking about this a little bit earlier with just like you know careers yeah and I don't know why I feel like I'm having those feelings about it being too late it's not like who's it gonna who's it

going to this is the thing this is what I tell myself yeah well exactly and there's two things there's being technically brilliant right yeah it is too late it's too late it's too late way too late for me. There's another thing which is you can find a way of expressing in your way on this thing. You can. Funny enough, Blake was just telling me a story

about, I think it was Ozzy Osbourne's guitar player who'd had his fingers chocked off because he was working in a factory in Northern England and working with the machines had destroyed the tips of his finger. and so he had these truncated fingers. And the guys, Ozzie and he working in the factory, wanted out, as you can imagine,

and they were, you know, playing their guitars. And he had this problem because of his truncated fingers. So they just detuned all the strings on his guitar to make it less painful for him, created the songs around that, and became... Ozzy Osbourne and his van. That's incredible.

And that's the way I look at music. It's like work with what you've got and do your thing. I just want to like spotlight something you said earlier. When you were talking about ordinary people and feeling in that moment when you were so young, and having, coming out of that, feeling like, oh, God, did I give something, did I not take advantage of that moment? I just want, like, macro out for a little bit.

And, like, I hope that you can look at, like, everything you've done between, you know, obviously your work on film and down to the avenue, but your work is a writer and is a songwriter and as a mother. And, like, realize, like, I mean, I'm probably not telling you anything you haven't thought about, but like you've done so much like I mean talk about taking a life and like making something of it it's like and it's interesting because and I think it's important for listeners to hear this like when you're that young and when you are 18 and when you are 20 like you feel like oh god everything like if I don't jump on it now like it's gone yeah it's like it's I'm that that's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's a place where we get to look at this from maybe the higher up on the mountain and see like it's so much more about, like, there's so much more there.

And, like, your life is so much bigger than those few years and that opportunity. Yeah. Because I'm just really struck by, like, how full your life is and how much you've accomplished. Well, a wonderful thing to hear. Oh, thank you so much. Sometimes it's hard to see that when it's, like, your life. Yeah, I guess that's right, because you're living from moment to moment, and there's always something at that moment that's frustrating you about your own limitation or,

but to, you know, to be with your help, to take out and see that bigger picture. It's a lovely thing. Thank you. Thank you so much. I've absolutely adored, like, having this time with you. I've seen you from across the room so many times at these events, and I always want to get over there, and I never really have had the opportunity. I've had the same thing.

And I've watched you in the dark so much. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really a treat. Thank you for doing this. Have a great show tonight. Thank you so much. Thank you. You too. I know. I love our both on stage at the same time. I'll be thinking about you. Inside. Yeah. With that fish keeping us going. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

This episode of Dinners on Me was recorded at Estiatorio Milas in Hudson Yards, New York City. Next week on Dinner's On Me, you know her from prestige TV shows like The Undoing, The Watcher, and more recently on Apple TV Plus's series MurderBot, it's Noma Dumasweeney. We'll dive into growing up as a refugee in England, challenging audience expectations with her iconic role as Hermione and Harry Potter and the Cursed Child, both on Broadway and on the West End,

which earned her an Olivier and a Tony nomination, and how hard it is not to stare at Alexander Scarsguard. And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinner's On Me Plus. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad free.

Just click Try Free at the top of the Dinner's On Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinner's On Me is a production of Sony music entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch, Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf.

Sam Bear engineered this episode. Hans Dale She composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tamika Balance Kalasni and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.