Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Isaac Mizrahi

Episode Date: October 3, 2023

Fashion designer, podcaster and cabaret singer Isaac Mizrahi joins the show. Over omelets and quiche, Isaac talks about dinner parties with Nora Ephron, being a young gay designer during the height of the AIDs crisis, and career risks he’s taken that not everyone believed in. This episode of Dinner’s On Me was recorded at Pastis in the West Village, NYC. Want next week’s episode now? Subscribe to Dinner’s on Me PLUS. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, but you’ll also be able to listen completely ad-free! Just click “Try Free” at the top of the Dinner’s on Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. A Sony Music Entertainment & A Kid Named Beckett production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you like a little danger with your romance and come on who doesn't, there's a new showtime original limited series for EO. Fellow travelers from the writer of Philadelphia and the network that brought us homeland and the affair is part epic love story, part political thriller, and all in on one big secret. It's this story of the risky, volatile, and very steamy relationship between two political staffers who fall in love at the height of the lavender scare. That's the McCarthy era campaign against gay government employees that you may not have learned about in school. Matt Boemer and John Lombardley star as lovers whose fiery and forbidden affair intensifies through the anti-war protests of the 60s, the discocene of the 70s and the

AIDS crisis of the 80s, all despite the constant threat being exposed and losing everything, including each other. Don't miss the series premiere of Fellow Travelers streaming October 27th with the Paramount Plus with Showtime Plan. Hi, it's Jesse. Today on the show, fashion designer, cabaret singer, podcaster, and one of the most entertaining people I know, Isaac Mizrahi. We'll get into dinner parties with Nora Efron, being a young gay designer during the height

of the AIDS crisis, and career risks he's taken that not everyone believed in. There was this one customer of mine who I loved. She was like a friend of mine. And we were having lunch. She was like, well, I can't buy your clothes anymore. If you're going to make those clothes for Target. This is Dinners On Me, and I'm Your Host. When I first moved to New York in 1994 for theater school,

there were a few buzzy names in fashion. And one of them was the young upstart, Isaac Miss Rahee. His name became synonymous with class and sophistication, something I didn't have much of when I was the young age of 17. I was going to class in Old Navy, and if I was feeling fancy, structure or banana republic. I finally got to know him years later when Justin and I reached out to him to design a bow tie for our foundation, Ty the Knot. We fell head over heels with him and his endless and hilarious stories.

I feel like he's one of those people who has lived a million different lives. In many ways, he made Fashion Week a spectator sport, a place for celebrities to see and be seen. A-listers sitting in the front row as icons like Naomi Campbell and Cindy Crawford walked down the runway in his designs. God, that must have been a time, right? But so many people, younger than me, know Isaac for his many other endeavors, his line for Target, his cabaret shows, and as of late, his podcast.

As you'll hear, Isaac has this sharp humor paired with incredible warmth. When I'm sitting across from him, I always feel like he saved these stories just for me. Time always flies so fast when you're in the presence of Isaac. So, save for this one. Hi. Are we on?

Are we taping? I'm already going. We found time to meet for brunch in New York City on a rainy Sunday morning during fashion week, ironically, at one of the shikas brunch spots in town, pasties. It's your birthday in a few weeks. That's right. We're both Libros.

We are Libros now. And yours is coming up. 22nd of October. The mine is the 14th of October, and I hate birthdays. You like birthdays? I don't mind them. I hate them. They're times you don't notice that.

But you're always celebrating. You do that. I'm not like a celebration, though. Like Justin, for example, was eight days ago, it's my birthday week. I was like, oh Jesus, are we doing this? That's a Virgo, you can't help that. Right. And we have friends who are like, that we make fun of them. And then I was like,

oh, are you doing that thing that we make fun of? Like you're doing it. Right. So if you ever see a party that I'm at, it's usually something that Justin has organized. Right. Usually I'm not. Was the wedding organized by Justin? Well, that we did have help with that one. Yeah. Yeah. Because that was like you know some kind of crazy

Unbelievable and beautiful Like extravaganza it was a very special day. It was a very very special date. This is so not happening It's not no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, whole no let's see oh yes it's very happy okay you put a drop in it and see how um see how paranoid I am I'm so paranoid you think it's gonna get you half enough it's not really any specials but for brunch the top right corner of your menu is we do have a pastry basket everything that's listed in the basket is what's included but of course we also do all the cart, so whatever's best for you. You have no usery, garbage, or anything. The art of the trees here aren't any same. They're so good. All made in-house.

Did you have any questions or perhaps you know what to, do you want to eat? Do you want to get some bread baskets? Yes, I do. Yeah, let's get out. I'm excited about laminated. Let's get anything that's laminated, it will take. All right, do you want to do the whole pastry basket or just a few of those? Why not?

Do you want to get it? Of course, don't. I'm going to do the whole paint your basket or just a few of those? Why not? Do you want to get it? Of course, don't. I'll just do one of mine. Go first. I'm going to do the Keesh floor. Keesh floor. Yeah. Wow. It's very good. Yeah.

Did that just change your opinion of what you were going to get? No, because I want an omelet, because I like to do it the make omelets here. They're never brown. I like the way you add a syllable to omelet. Omelet? Oh, yeah. I think it's omelet. No, there's always a syllable darling.

Are you serious? Call your voice and diction teacher. She will say omelet, yes. I want the greyer omelet. Thank you. You know, I went to performing arts high school where we got a lot of voice and diction. It was a lot of Eastern standard, you know.

Yeah. And I'm not kidding. I'm still friends with people from that class. And I go omelet. And they go, shut the fuck up, you asshole. But I have to because that's what I was taught darling, you know, this whole sort of. But I've always, I was always bad with that. I was always the one in class being corrected

for saying things the wrong way. Except from the Midwest, we flatten a lot of our syllables. Right, and you pronounce your ours because in Eastern Standard forever, you didn't pronounce the ah Yeah, you would say you know mock or something whatever it was right and then came Johnny Carson who had that hard Our sound and it all went to that because it became less affected. It sounds very effective Just to speak like you know some 1930s Claudette Covella for the or something, But I don't think for you it really works.

Does it? Uh-huh. Ah! Oh my god, look at this. It's too so affected. Buck, you know why you tried to say something to me? Wow. I know, I was not very good.

Really, a Claire, that's not pastry. Daryling, that, that, that, that, that, that dessert. What was it called that a donut? Yeah, that's a donut. I'm going to take half of this. Please do. I croissant. You tell me if it's this. Please, too. I croissant. You tell me if it's good.

Ah, of course. Is it really good? Really buttery? No butter? What the hell? Who the hell do they say are? It's a butterberry. No.

How do you think you are? Who do you think you are? Who wants a butter with? Well, no, I don't want butter. I guarantee you. No, I really don't. That's my passive-aggressive way of saying, could you please bring some fucking unsalted butter with a bread basket?

I don't know if you need butter on these. The croissant's super buttery already. Darling, you always need butter. No, you don't. You kind of, I know, I'm with you on. I think there can be too much butter, but a croissant with a little bit of butter and cheese. You know when you have a cheese course at the end of a dinner,

if you have a little butter with the cheese, because that's sick, but that is delicious. That's very precious. That's very brilliant. That is very good. That is delicious habit. I get it. You've been cooking a lot, I've noticed on your Instagram. I have.

Have you always been good in the kitchen? Yeah. I've always been interested in it as a subject, and I've always thought of it as something that you've had to do, or it should be a fabulous, or chic New Yorker. You know, you have to know how to cook, or at least know the fabulous and chic New Yorker. You have to know how to cook, or at least know the difference

between good cooking and bad cooking. You know. The whole story of, was it a part thing you made that wasn't presented with dessert? And you were so angry at it. And a general party that I went to, it was a Bob Balladans house. But like, people were there, like.

Nora Efron, you could have stopped there. And I remember. Marish got a hargote was there. Oh my gosh. With her incredibly beautiful husband. Like you have to reverse your hands. Yeah, I'm so hands on. You're supposed to give him some men, right?

That is a man. They're a very good-looking couple. That is a man, okay. Anyway, but like BB Newworth, then all these fucking people were there. It was so crazy. And we booked, then it was like a potluck. So I said, oh, okay, I'll make this tart, which I can. You know, I can make this beautiful tart.

And we brought it and she looked at me and she was like, oh, you make things and it was like, yes, we make this nor effron say that to me. And Frank Bruni was all these people were there. The tart never got served. I promise you, it never got served. and we were there through charades. We had dinner. They made that tambale thing, you know, that thing that they made on big night. You know that will be big night with Isabella, Rossellini. I'm Stanley, too, Jean, all those good people. It's this kind of deep dish like dough thing that you make with pasta inside and you cut it like tamballi and so they decided to make that for dinner and it was eh, meh, it wasn't so delicious okay and then they never served this fucking to and Arnold and I looked at

him and I was like who is the first to get served this job. Arnold's my amazing gay husband who I just love so much. He is gay. He is gay. He's gay. That was delicious. Yeah right. I want to talk about kind of the first time

that I became aware of you was when I moved to New York. It was 1994. So you were just starting your kind of your own company at that point. And I was like, you know, too young, to like really know too much about anything. I was just coming in for theater school. But your name was like a very busy name in New York

at that time. And shortly after that is when I met Leah Delaria, because we did on the town together, and she's very good friends with Sandra Bernhardt, who happened to be one of your great friends. So I started like becoming closer and closer to your circle, and then I kind of just observed you from afar, but I was always so enamored with, first of all, you, because I didn't know anyone in the fashion industry, but also just your energy and like there was just like an allure and like a aura around you wherever you went. Really? Oh absolutely. Well, what do I have to attribute that to you think? I think it's my voice addiction possibly, but yeah possibly your and diction. But also, I feel like,

because I also, I mean, I grew up gay in an area of the United States that it wasn't super okay to be gay in Albuquerque, New Mexico. And I definitely had to carve my own place out. And I did that when I moved to New York. And I know that you had, you know, your upbringing was also, you grew up in a very orthodox Jewish household.

You know, after save, as a New Yorker, you kind of grow up and look at other extremely glamorous people. You grow up, you're weaned on glamorous people, you know. If you go regularly to the opera or the ballet or the theater, which I did, with my parents and on my own, and I went to performing arts high school, so I was really exposed to that. And all those teachers at performing arts high school, were like so area-died and so glamorous and so they talked about cooking and they talked about being in nightclubs and you know what I mean so it kind of sets you up to want to do all that and be that adult right but you know I had a very rough time growing up, you know, gay and being in this orthodox culture and just being such an outsider, et cetera.

So eventually, when I got the idea to get the hell out of there, it really meant something. And I went there, Brooklyn was where you in Brooklyn, in Brooklyn, New York, yes. I mean, and it's funny because I could get there in 15 minutes. Right, right, right, right. So when I say there, you think it was like, you know, the Midwest, but you're from. You went to performing arts school right out of. You did, out of.

Out of Yashiva, I mean, that was a culture shock. Sure. To put it mildly, yeah. And it was saved my life, I think. You know, performing arts high school saved my life. And you know what? Right? You know, because I swear that kind of stuff,

reading Shakespeare, I don't know, reading all those amazing plays by Tennessee Williams and all those plays when I was in high school and taking yoga every day and taking ballet every day, which was ridiculous, you know. But it saved my life and it opened me up. It made me understand that there was a better purpose To my life than you know kind of hiding in Brooklyn Right, right, right, and I really mean that I feel like it says I feel like more than

Maths or something more than social studies or whatever they do in You know insist that you study in high school. I feel like art is a much more important It makes you look within yourself you know, insist that you study in high school. I feel like art is a much more important subject. It makes you look within yourself, which is why I think, you know, not everyone can be an artist because there's not that willingness to do that. But also, I don't think everyone has the same ability

to look within themselves and then translate that into something that is meaningful for everyone else. I've had to very special gift that artists have. But I do think that everyone can benefit from just the practice of looking within yourself and like being comfortable with who you are because you have to be completely comfortable with you are to be a good artist. Oh look at that omelet. Oh, we're cooking. Stunning.

So pretty. By the way, that is monster-pew. That is a cheese piece. That is a monster. That is like putting an auger in the cream. That is size, darling. Size, man. Thank you so much. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much. Oh my God, that's great. Is it? That's so delicious. I came here once with a friend of mine, and he got overwhelmed when we started ordering brunch, and he ended up getting a parfait, which was just a tiny yogurt,

like yogurt and fruit, and it was very small. And everyone else got these like you know comically large sizes of of Keeshen omelets and his came and it was just this tiny little like dessert cup of yogurt and so we kept calling it the panic parfait because you didn't know what to order so we just got the parfait okay right right right right right now to this day when we're out with him we're like are you gonna get the panic parfait now you said the words last time I was here and Andy Cohen and the set was really fast. It was right before COVID and I was here with Lee Delaria and

Justin and Andy was at this table that we're sitting right next to with Nini Leaks and on our on his way out he said hello to us. He gave us a hug. We talked to him for a while. He introduced us to Nini and then next day, he tested positive for COVID. And it was at the very beginning, like when Tom Hanks got COVID and like the world knew about it. Like every time someone who was famous got COVID,

you were hearing about it. And so like I heard about it. And he's like, well, wait a minute now. Yeah. Andy, how I'm doing dining with the Nithia Leaks? Well, they're on thing. Well, Mr. Moss. I thought, no, but I mean, she hasn't been on the house

watches that have left her for a minute, which is why I sort of lapses. Like, sometimes I watch it like this is hilarious, but I don't have to. It's not like must watch television. Uh-huh. It's extremely good, but you know, when Nini was on it, darling, it was like every week I would die. Right, right.

I have to watch it. But anyway, maybe she could she possibly become making a comeback? This was a while ago, though. This was 2000. Oh, oh, oh, oh. No, 2020, sorry. All right, but you said before I got it.

My God, sorry. I got it. I got it. 40 years ago. I got it, sorry. By the way, 40 years ago. I got it. Sorry. By the way, can I just say something really embarrassing? Oh, me. There's ketchup on this plate for the fries, which are amazing.

If you want several of them, please take several. But I'm using it on the omelet, the ketchup, which is probably not the shikest thing in the world to do. When I was a kid, I worked at Perielas. Like I was 18 years old. Yes, I know, yeah. And there was this photographer who I love, this one called Erichel and Ard, she's such a doll, she's such a good friend.

And we really worked hard, and we did these shootings, and I would have to like fly to Water Island in these tiny little planes. And you know, in those days it wasn't like dress and shoes and like self-tanner. That's everybody's look. And those days darling, it was like three belts and a hat with a pin on it,

and then a pin on the lapel, and then three jackets, and a pair of tights, a pair of socks, a pair of boots, I mean, it was a lot to remember. Right, you remember. It was very layered. And if I forgot one thing, it wasn't like it was down the block, it was at Water Island, you know? Right.

So, because that's where she was shooting, but anyway, we went to breakfast one morning, and I had eggs, and I had the ketchup near the eggs. And she was like, please don't do that. You're making me sick. And I was like, wow, really? And she made me a little paranoid about eating eggs with ketchup.

Really? But I really like eggs and ketchup. Is that sick? You can judge me. No, it's not at all. I thought you were going to say something special about that ketchup, but I feel like it's just, no. I can judge how you, it's like the one ketchup that

is good in the world. Like, don't fuck with that. I heard that is 100% right by the way they also make another one like an artisanal kind and it's just I gave it all away I bought like two of them and I opened it it was terrible and I went back and got the regular I totally agree with you because they're sugar it that's why I don't know what it's absolutely there's like corn stars or something in there yeah we love it now for a quick break but don't go away when we come back Isaac tells me what it was like to be an it designer of the early 90s and why he can count how many

fashion shows he's been to on one hand okay be right back Okay, be right back. So it's no secret to anyone who knows me that I love to be in the kitchen. I love that with Masterclass. I can be a student of some of the greatest chefs in the world, like Thomas Keller, Alice Waters, and Roy Choi. I don't know, watching these Masters break down their technique and share their own stories of growth

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slash dinners. That's masterclass.com slash dinners for 15% off. If you like a little danger with your romance and come on, who doesn't, there's a new Showtime original limited series for you. Fellow travelers from the writer of Philadelphia and the network that brought us homeland and the affair is part epic love story, part political thriller, and all in on one big secret. It's the story of the risky, volatile, and very steamy relationship between two political staffers who fall in love at the height of the lavender scare. That's the McCarthy era campaign against gay government

employees that you may not have learned about in school. Matt Boemer and Jonathan Bailey stars lovers whose fiery and forbidden affair intensifies through the anti-war protests of the 60s, the discocene of the 70s and the AIDS crisis of the 80s. All despite the constant threat being exposed and losing everything, including each other. Don't miss the series premiere of Fellow Travelers streaming October 27th with the Paramount Plus with Showtime Plan. And we're back with more dinners on me.

You mentioned Perialas, I do want to talk about the beginning of your your Your career as a designer which all okay, so I was listening to a recent podcast you did and this Totally surprised me and tell me if it was actually just the way you were feeling that day or this is actually true But fashion for you was something that you that wasn't your first passion You wanted to be a entertainer. You wanted to be a performer and fashion was just something you knew how to do And it was almost like you knew how to do, and it was almost like your survival job. Yeah, yeah. Is that true?

It is true. I mean, like I pursued it because being from New York, you know, you kind of understand quickly that it's easy to get a job, say, in a design room in those days, because there were millions of design rooms, and my father was a manufacturer of children's clothes, and I was kind of raised with a lot of selling machines, and I just understood how to do it.

And in order to ensure my safe passage out of that crazy community, I had to figure out how to make money. And I just thought, you know what? I was still at Parsons when I got my first job. I worked with Perielis while I was in college right what a huge break wait a minute this is the best thing I've eaten all day the scone is really good delicious it has that kind of turbo not oh sugar on top and it's like a little crunch at the end yes you need that and it's not sweet at all and this could use a little butter

just say all right Brian McNally if you could use a little butter just say. All right, Brian McNally, if you're listening, okay. Little butter served with the, the en wazery basket, okay. Wow. That's it. Look at your monster. No, I'm getting slowly because I'm not looking. I'm still going. I'm not.

You're done. You know what? I got home really late last night. Where were you? I was at QVC all day. It's fashion days. Oh no. I can't see. Wait a minute. Wait. We're having lunch on Fashion was at QVC all day. It's fashion days. Oh no. Wait a minute.

We're having lunch on fashion week up. Well that's right. Well fashion week doesn't matter to me anymore darling. And I always say this thing like you know nothing good can come from something called fashion week you know. I mean that. It's just too many clothes. Too many clothes. People are not supposed to do that. But you were a part of it at one point. I was and I resisted, resisted, resisted. You know, and they wanted to codify it. I remember this whole thing, the Fern Malice at Anna Winter. And they were like, you have to show in the tents that I was like, I'm not showing at the tents, you know.

I'm showing at this abandoned bank space, you know, in the financial district. And you're gonna have to schlep your ass over there because it's gorgeous, you know. And I was right, I was right about that. and that's why I made that show with the scrim because I was like, well I'm not gonna do this in this fucking tent and it's the same models at that point, right? Everybody booked the same models, everybody's doing the same model. You see the same models, it's literally like. It was Linda, Naomi, Cindy Conn,

Verona, blah blah blah, was that the icons. The icons, yeah. And so like you have those girls, and if you had a lot of money, which I didn't, you can pretend to have a fabulous fashion show. If it's in the same tent with the same models, you know, and the colors are good, you have a colorist come in and go, those colors, or you have good shoes that day, everybody's excited, you know. Right. And you're killing yourself to do something individual, right? An anti-homogeneity.

An anti-homogeneity. That's on the record. to do something individual, right? An anti-homogeneity. Okay, anti-homogeneity. That's on the record. But you battled about this idea that you had for a scrim, which was a white scrim with just your name on it. And then the scrim for people who don't know, like a scrim could be lit from different ways and it could be opaque or it could be transparent

or it could be completely see through at one point. And you had all of the models dressing behind the screen. You could see like a peek behind the curtain of the backstage analytics. You were back there running around with your, you know, adjusting costumes. And then it ended up being this really successful, wonderful, visual thing that almost everyone told you not to do. Yes, so true. And I think that happens a lot just not only with fashion,

but like all artists, you know, the one thing you have to hold on to is your artistic vision and like what you want to do and to like really dig your heels and when you feel like it's right. And I feel like that was a perfect example of an artist digging their heels in and it went over mind-blowingly well. First of all, you inspire me by telling that story because it's a constant battle, right?

Like every day getting out of bed is a battle and envisioning yourself standing in front of the mirror, brushing your teeth, that's a step. I'm not kidding. And it's not just me, it's everybody, and especially as you get older, like it's just warning you. It gets harder, first of all, it gets harder to walk, right?

It gets harder to stand up, it's great. I'm already experiencing that. I'm experiencing that. I'm just warning you. First of all, it gets harder to walk, right? It gets harder. She's dead. I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that.

I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that.

I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that. I'm experiencing that. So envisioning just kind of making it through the day is something, you know. But then you're so right about that. It's like, you know, this thing about sticking to something, because even if it fails, you have the satisfaction of saying to yourself, no, but you know what?

I have integrity. At least I have integrity. And that's a big word, and that has a lot of different interpretations. You know, we know know we know right as individuals Absolutely by the way, are we not eating any are we just being gay and not eating anymore? I'm still picking up. Okay. I'm just saying because you're I don't know I don't know do you I definitely want some more I want more ice coffee. This is beautiful So you are your career was given a huge boost when Chanel invested in you.

And you were, I guess I became aware of you after you would already sort of became this thing. And I didn't kind of realize, I guess, how quickly that might have happened for you. I mean, you and Mark Tick was sort of like being, like, touted it as like the two next big things. Mark Tickles. Well, you know, the thing about the Chanel thing was that, you know, everybody thinks of it as the big boost, but it didn't really, I mean, it was just, it was just a good deal

of money, which is that I could boost. Continue doing what I was doing, except there were a lot of people who would have done that, you know what I mean. And the thing about Chanel, bless them, is they did not understand nor did I, nor did anyone at the time, bless them, is they did not understand, nor did I, nor did anyone at the time, because it was way before, you know, there was one company that owned all these companies, right? It was way before that, where they didn't understand the machinery that needed to be put into place to actually make it into something, right?

Like a Mimparatige American fashion brand So while they were waiting for me to do it. I was waiting for them to do it It was like okay, so when am I gonna get all these merchants and an advertising budget and a store and you're also how old at this point? I was 27 so young Yeah, and so that lasted about 10 years and it kind of and we decided Ammeccably that it wasn't gonna be done And so I decided to close the doors and we took it from there. So I think it like delayed things and it didn't really help much. Plus they were very from this place where they did not want to. It wasn't like there was a cover of

women's wear announcing or a cover of Vogue announcing that my company had been you know kind of partnered with Chanel, they kept it very quiet, they wanted it very quiet. It sort of seeped out the news, as opposed to making an impact. And yet when that partnership dissolves, that was, I'm a... Right, yeah, of course, it's on the cover of The New York Times. Yes, yes.

Yes. I mean, I want to talk about that, but first of all, while you were doing this partnership though, I mean, want to talk about that but first of all like while you were During this partnership though. I mean you this is the moment where you were being pressured to show in the tents and you were doing these Fashion shows and you had all these Fabulous people showing up in the program lies Menali and Santa Bernhard I mean prints and you know they would come because they like clothes. Yeah, I think De Niro used to come because he liked the girls. He thought it was a lot of beautiful girls and he wasn't wrong. Right. Yeah. Yeah.

And so there was a kind of like a real energy about it. And there was an energy in the audience and there was an energy on the runway. And today, like, you know, years later when I was doing shows again, I worked with the stylist and she was like, could you stop smiling, stop the smile, you know? And she put up a sign like, no smiling. And I thought, this is where I have to end. This is where I have to say, I can't do another fashion show. I mean, of course, we don't like to smile. We should have done that to smile. The models. And the thing is, she wasn't wrong because there is something sickening about a girl walking

around the runway smiling. But, you know, like, if something happens on the runway that's hilarious or something, or like, you know, there was happens on the runway that's hilarious or something or like on it, you know there was a whole I'm not kidding like between those women they did a thing where they understood how to smile in a very cool way. I don't know. Have you been to a fashion show recently? No I have never been to another fashion show. I went to literally two fashion shows in my whole life. One was Jeffrey Bean when I was like in Parsons, who was my favorite designer. I think that ever lived. I think that is like I will go to my grave thinking he was the greatest creator of the 20th

century. Jeffrey Bean was the greatest designer ever lived if you asked me. And then I went to a GoT AA show once too. That was really good. Because you were a fan of GoTiA and you wanted to see the spectacle. Because he was having like an event in New York at the time. He had his show in New York that season. And it was at this club.

And I was a big club kid, darling. Big. Big. Oh, yes. Like, why am I? Are you kidding so much? Tell me where you went. Why am I?

Well, starting in high school, I mean, I went, this is the most typical thing. I went to Studio 54 a lot, you know, and Xenon. And there was a small club called HIPAPOTIMIS on the Upper East Side. And then, of course, is like, you know, New York, New York, and Electric Circus. And, you know, I don't know, there were millions of clubs. Then it was

area, area was very, very cool. That was a little bit later, and then there was the mud club. The mud club was the greatest place in the world. That wasn't so much a disco as much as like a dance club, and it was more sort of punk rock music, and so fabulous. And then, of course, like, you know, now I have to force myself to go out, and it's nine o'clock, and I'm like, just, go out. And it's nine o'clock and I'm like, you can't go in at nine o'clock.

Same. I do have two kids, but I think even if I didn't have two kids, I would still be doing it. Does Justin go out? He does more than me. He's also tired. It's exhausting having children. When you were designing in the 90s and the late 80s,

I mean, you're a gay man in the industry with mostly gay men at the height of the AIDS epidemic. I mean, what was that like? You said you were a club kid. You were scary. Yeah. And I have to tell you, you know, it wasn't until my late 30s that I started

hooring around, you know, like I did not, I'm not kidding, like from the age of like 18 to the age of of 38 or something. I had maybe five or six boyfriends that I slept with because I was so scared. I mean, you would have to be crazy to go out and do that in that time. And even sleeping with those men, even the boyfriends I had was scary because you didn't know, right? So it was all scary.

They say that thing where all the gay men died. And so there's no great opera anymore, great ballet because those vicious, vicious queens don't go and say, what the fuck is wrong with you? That sucked, you know? And I kind of think, I always said, come on. Really, that's not why opera and ballet suck. It's because, but I think they might be right.

I swear, I think they really might be right. Because I'm the only queen left. It goes and goes. I go to those things that I got. There's a few others. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Isaac tells me about his risky decision to do a line with Target,

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Are you sure? Are you sure you're sure? Get answers you can trust from Salesforce at AskMoreVai.com. And we're back with more dinners on me. So I'm curious to know, like, what was it like when you did have to close After Chanel because I were not gonna do this relationship anymore I mean did you have the faith in yourself to know like I have so much more to give or I'm gonna be okay or It was an amicable thing and they gave me a choice

They were like oh you could do this you could do that and I was like you know it and closing Yeah, and they were like okay like I kind of looked at what I was doing And it just couldn't be interesting for I was like, you know what? I'm closing. And they were like, okay, I kind of looked at what I was doing. And it just couldn't be interesting for that much longer. And I had a deal to make a movie with somebody, and I had a deal to make it a television show with somebody, and a deal to make a one-person show off Broadway. So a lot was going on, you know. And I started on that path, which is the path I kind of started. You kind of wanted to do in the beginning.

We can ask you, were your parents so alive during this time? My mom was. And I know you have sisters. After sister. You don't really speak to your mother. I do know, I mean, I love my, I love quote-unquote, your air quotes. Yeah, that's hilarious.

It's true. It's hilarious, but true. But what was their response when all this success was happening for you? They were into it. And you know, my weirdly, my sisters who are orthodox Jews and their husbands who are really orthodox Jews never missed a fashion show. Really? Yeah.

Which was like what? I mean, you know, because some of the stuff that were worn by these women was extremely loose. You never make anything for them? Sure, you can. What did you make for them? Well, I made all their wedding clothes. For my sister's, you mean?

Yeah, I made all their wedding clothes when I was a tiny kid, you know. I mean, they've got married when I was like, I would say, 18 or 19 years old. Sorry, I did all those clothes. But also, they bought clothes wholesale or I gave them clothes for my collection. If it's a turtle neck thing, you know I mean it's appropriate and they all wear designer

clothes, you know they wear designer clothes. So they were supporters of yours? They were supportive of the design thing, yeah. I love to hear that you had that bait in yourself when the Chanel thing ended and you were because the next year you were doing your one man show off Broadway, right? That's right, that's right. It ran for like a year or something. It was a fabulous success.

I remember when that was running. And I had all these other projects, so I didn't really see it, and then of course the target thing happened. Right, which I wanted to talk about. Everything, that was a huge, giant thing. Which I'm so glad I did, you know. So that was, you were given the opportunity to design.

You were the, actually the first collaboration Yes, that you that target did they've since gone on to do stuff with Miss Sony with Jason Wu I mean it wasn't the first collaboration, but it was the first line like it was in the store for seven years Like they put effort into it because I think Stephen Sprouse did like you know beach towels and right right right T-shirt you know things like that and it was and a t-shirt and you know things like that and it was like a minute and then it went away. This was actually a collection of clothes that had like you know a devoted amount of space in each of the stores. T stands and things and I mean if you go into the target

website and there's a timeline of like the history of target you're on that timeline is one of the most important collaborations in the history of Target. Wait, the podcast listener can't see this, but I just put my ice coffee down with great gusto because it's true. But you know, I was very happy to do that because it was nervous. You have to admit you were nervous. I was nervous because there was this one customer of mine who I loved. She was like a friend of mine. And we were having lunch, she was like, wait, you're doing what? And I was like, I'm making these thoughts for Target and I'm making a new Cotor collection. I'm going to show them together and it's going to be very, very pretty.

She was like, well, I can't buy your clothes anymore if you're going to make those thoughts for Target. And it was like, you won't. She was like, no, I probably won't. And I was like, oh, all right. And you know, it really made that through the fear of God and me. But I also have to tell you, like, at that point, I And you know, it really made that through the fear of God and me, but also I have to tell you, like, at that point, I didn't have much to lose

because it wasn't like I was still pursuing a career in design. I just said, oh, this would be really funny and fun to do, you know? So I made this show at Chiquiani with literally, you know, ball gown skirts that were like $17,000 or something, with t-shirts that were $17.00.

And I remember, I swear to you, Betty Holbreich, to you Congo, could I get some more of those t-shirts? Because I'm selling the skirt and they won't buy it unless you get the, I'm serious. And Target was not the kind of place where you could go like, hey, can you give me a t-shirt? It's this crazy, you know, it's coming from God knows where. And there was 17,000, but try getting one, you know?

Yeah, in the size. And was this kind of the time also when Sharon Stone famously wore a gapped mock turtle next to the Oscars? I feel like that was something that people were doing. Yeah, well, you know, I mean, that was way after I did it. But she's great, I love her. And she's so stylish.

She used to come to my shows all the time. And she would write me notes after, like, darling, did you really mean? Yeah. For that shoe to be so hot. And I was like, wow, she's like a critic. Wow. She has real good taste.

Sharon Stone has really good taste. She does. She would write me notes like, darling, it was pure Fred Astaire. Like that. Oh, my God. Somebody got it. Yeah, exactly.

I have gotten several of, when you had that line with Target, they did have something set up and the MEs, a gifting suite. Right. And I did get a gift bag with some of your stuff. So. Yeah, well guess what, can I tell you? I do this thing sometimes at 54 below,

or at the Carlisle or something, where I have like all this stuff that I get in gift bags, and I re-gift, because- Oh, that's great. What do you do with all that shit? What do you do with the dog? It is really fantastic, it's really fun. I do wanna talk about that part of your career as well, but I wanna back up just a little bit

because right before the target line happened, you did something which I can only imagine what's been thrilling for you, and you got to design the costumes for the brother revival of the women. Yes. With this insane cast. It was a crazy cast. Jennifer Tilley, Jennifer Coolidge, um, Room of Clana Hannah. Room of Clana and Kirsten Johnson and you, McClana, did you ever know that? Craziest story? I got to meet you in Room of Clana. Oh, no, no, tell. Oh my God, well, I love rooma clan.

She was amazing. And of course, we met and it was also cordial and fabulous. And we're doing the costumes and we come to the big number that she wears at the end of the party, right? And I designed this hilarious dress for her. It was really funny.

And it's something I thought the character would really wear, and it would be extremely funny, right? But she didn't like it. Because it was funny, as opposed to being like, you know, kind of gorgeous and flattering and gorgeous, it was kind of like a joke about, it was all rooched in this way, like, like speaking of Viennwazari, it was like these Vienn, these Viennese curtains, like, you know those rooched curtains over the bustle? Over the whole dress. And it was an old lady dress, because she played the Countess Delav in that way, right?

And she kept trying to, like, and was like, darling, no, because it's so funny. And then the show happened, and she walked on and got this huge laugh in the dress, right? But she still didn't like it. She just did not like it. And I was like, Scott Elliott, who was the director, who was a doll. I love Scott. Anyway, and he kind of had a talk with her, and it was like a whole serious thing. It wasn't pretty. And then I went back a couple of

nights later after the opening, and she's in this other dress. She actually commissioned another, another costume designer to make her a dress for that, for the rest of it, because she just would not wear the dress. Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. She's so open with your dress. Yes, and then she, And then like three performances later, she shows up in this dress and it was like, and did she not think it was,

and I felt so bad. Wait, that's breaking some union. Maybe, but you know what? Here's the thing, like I just felt bad, because I was such a bitch about it. Like I was like, no, it's really funny. Like I wasn't gonna bunch. You know, it was her, no, it's really funny. Like, I wasn't gonna bunch. You know, it was her or me, you know?

Because that's, you know, you don't think someone's gonna pass on and then you're gonna feel really shitty that you made them wear something they really hated, you know? Because it's funny and it's right in the show and you're the costume designer, you know? And also, it's a reference for her. Right, and so I hated it, but I did it and I forced it, and now I will never live it down and like, it haunts me that story. And so I hated it, but I did it, and I forced it. And now I will never live it down. And like, it haunts me that story. Like, I mean it. If you're listening in heaven,

Rue, I'm sorry, darling. I mean, I hope you didn't bring the dress with you. You got that replacement. Right. Do you remember who the designer was? No, no. It was just some costume designer, like some wardrobe. I did not know that. I do know this other story, and we confirm if it's true or not. Uh-oh. Do you know what I'm going to ask? No. Go on, ask.

So there's a scene I believe it was Jennifer Tilly's character stands up at a bathtub. Yes, yes. Oh, right. And she, it's a period piece. Yeah. It takes place in what? The 1940s, the 1938s.

And Jennifer's tillies pubic hair was not Bush was not Period appropriate. No, it was not because she had a she had a Brazilian Yeah, and it was because he she would have the nude she walked she you know because Scott did it in this kind of dirty dirty Dirty way like you know like people were smoking in the exercise But it was like, everybody was smoking constantly. Which is hilarious. Putting cigarettes out, like, in the, like, that's what he,

that's what he imagined. It was like in the 30s, which is not untrue, right? And he's so smart. And so he did this thing with her, where she stands up in the bathtub, and she's completely naked, right? Right. And she had a Brazilian, she had a little Brazilian bikini wax.

And I was the one who had to break it to her that you know like should have to grow out her pubic hair because it's not who the hell knew what a but a Brazilian bikini wax was in nineteen thirty and was there time to grow it out you know no no no no no no no so i think we used a few more bubbles on that area because the story i heard that i really wish it happened with you designed her market i wish i could have gone to the trouble on that area because the story I heard that really which had happened was that you designed her a market

I wish I could have gone to the trouble Wouldn't that have been so fabulous I mean when you when people like leave a show like what's the one thing you stole from the show? I Know you've always been a great singer in a wonderful performer, but like when did you start like always been a great singer in a wonderful performer. But like when did you start like deciding to do this one man show that you see you've been part of the car layout, which is an iconic.

You should come once because it just has been. Oh my God. When you were doing your last show, I was on stage. I wasn't able to go. But Justin's been and he's like, he is wonderful. Oh, yay. I love Justin's show.

He's not a car. He's not a car... He's not a car-lile. The car-lile is like this amazing venue in the Car-lile hotel where Elaine Switch would face in the form. You know, when I did my one-person show off Broadway, it was a written piece with cues and, you know, musical cues and lighting cues and set cues and block, right?

But when you work at the car-lile, or you work at a club, I can say stuff off-book if I want. I write a lot of stuff and I'm prepared, and I write a lot of jokes, and I have a lot of stuff, but then sometimes stuff happens where it's just great, and better than anything you could possibly write.

You know, yeah. I'm doing like putting shows together like that. I heard you talking once about a set list and you were like, I'm gonna do this song in this show, but it's not really appropriate for this show and kind of you have this array of things that you do, but you don't ask us to put everything into the same show. I don't know what, I think because, you know what,

when you're making clothes and you're showing clothes, who cares? It's like, you know, it's just a presentation of the thing. It's, the presentation is not supposed to be what it's about. The end use is someone wearing clothes. So if you're going, I'm going to fuss and fuss and fuss about the show, it then becomes about a show, but it's an inappropriate kind of a thing to me. Whereas like when I'm working on my show, every single word,

I can parse over a thousand times because it is appropriate. So putting all of that effort into it matters. I have to say it's what I absolutely live for. And I'll tell you this right before I had my residence at 54 below this summer, I got COVID. And I recovered the day my rehearsal started, luckily. And I was exhausted through my rehearsal started, luckily. And I was exhausted through the entire, like I was so tired. Through those five shows.

And they were great shows and they were fabulous, right? You know when you finish with a show and you just get that amazing feeling, or even during the show, some kind of like payoff, right? Didn't happen. How interesting. And I didn't, and I thought like, what am I doing? Like am I in the right business? Am I doing, what am I doing? Like, am I in the right business? And here I am, like, fighting for this position in the world,

you know? And by the way, I love being on stage. I love it. And so to not have felt that this past time, it scared me because I'm not kidding. Why do you think it was? Because I was so exhausted and so scared that I wasn't able to sing when my lungs was still recovering from COVID

You know I couldn't breathe for two weeks and all of a sudden my rehearsal start and I have to be singing for hours and hours and hours But anyway, I will tell you that like you know as a performer There's something so marvelous about those moments those golden moments on stage Yeah, like no matter how shitty the world is, or how shitty politics, or global, I don't know what you're worried about, what you think about when you're on stage, it all funnels into this kind of incredible thing.

You know, but everything becomes this kind of jolly kind of a thing. I mean, it's also one thing to create your own piece of art and then present it. It's quite another thing to go into something that is so established and like is like this well-oiled machine, which is what you do when you win into Chicago. Yes. Talk about a well-oiled machine that shows been running for 700 years.

Oh, yes. And it's so good. I just went to go see it a few weeks ago with Jingsmon soon and I wasn't able to come see yours because I was doing tick me out at the time. But you're run, but you were in it for three months. What was that experience like to be making a Broadway debut as a former? It was scary beyond words. I was a kid when the first one came out.

In 1975. Exactly. So I started a million times and I was obsessed with it and it was raunchy darling. Now it's kind of family entertainment. They made it sort of raunchy with air quotes. That show originally was just filthy. I went to first time I saw it with my parents and they literally were like so embarrassed

that they took us to see that show because we were kids you know. And it wasn't a hit. No it was not a hit. It played for about a year I you know. And it wasn't a hit. No, it was not a hit. It played for about a year, I'd say. Yeah, it was not a hit. But, and also I remember my teachers are performing on its high school going, oh, darlings, this is not something you want to do.

You know, and I don't know, you know, people didn't like Bob Fossy. They just didn't like him. God, it's fascinating. God, it's fascinating. It's not like him. They didn't think he was good. No, everyone's trying to emulate him.

I know. Yeah, yeah. Have you been enjoying That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty.

That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty.

That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty. That's pretty. It had a very good number. It was number six overall. Yeah, yeah. And I was like, what? You're kidding.

Anybody's listening to this shit? I couldn't believe it. And then I was like, now I love it. After you and the rating thing, right? And that it's doing very, very well makes me feel like. What do you like most about it? I like kind of getting people to tell me stuff that they wouldn't normally tell others. And sometimes that's not that easy, particularly with people who have been interviewed a trillion

times. And I've told this to Andy. Andy Cohen, right? Andy Cohen, when I had my talk show for seven years by the way on oxygen. That's what we have been talked about that. I had Dolly, which was like a get, you know, like in whenever that was. And I did the thing, and she told me the story

about how she played her acrylic nails. And she played the nails for me on the show. And I was like, oh my God, I just got the greatest scoop in the history of talk shows. And then of course, they were like, darling, she told me to look every fucking time. I was like, I know that story. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But for a minute, I was like, I am like, fucking Oprah and David Frost and Decaven put together, you know, but that's so good. I personally love the research, because even with you who I know so well, I got to read up about so many things I didn't know about. I love getting to know these people who I admire so much on a deeper level. I've been really enjoying that part of it.

And your podcast is called Hell of Isaac and I Howdy. Hell of Isaac. And it drops once a week. I think on Mondays, it drops. And you can get it wherever you get your pocket. That's right. You know, that's not an easy phrase to say. Get it on I Heart Radio or wherever you get,

you have to slow down or wherever you write, right? Or wherever you get your pocket, say that. Or wherever you get your pocket. See, I messed it up. I told you, it's not easy. Well, this has been incredibly chic, Isaac. So chic. Sunday brunch.

It's pastis in New York City. During Fashion Week, which we don't really care about anymore. Yeah, yes and now. Maybe a little, maybe a little sour grace. Yeah, but this is very chic. I think you, thank you so much. Oh, you're so chic. You're so chic.

So chic. So chic. So chic. So chic. So chic. Next time on Dinner's On Me, Jonathan Van Ness. He's our year so shh to Dinner's On Me Plus. As a subscriber, you not only get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen to them completely ad-free. Just click try-free at the top of the Dinner's On Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today.

Dinner's On Me is a production of neon hum Hum Media, Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by Yours Truly. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Chloe Chobal is our associate producer, Sam Bear, engineered this episode. Hansdale She composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison, special thanks to Alexis Martinez and Justin McKeeta.

I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ you