Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Jon Bernthal – on Career ‘Lumps’ & Challenging Himself on Stage

Episode Date: May 19, 2026

'The Punisher’ and ‘The Bear’ star Jon Bernthal joins the show. Over pancakes and avocado toast, Jon tells me about making his Broadway debut in ‘Dog Day Afternoon’ and why he still gets terrified before each show. Plus, he reflects on being associated with hyper-masculine roles and being able to tell a different kind of love story on stage. We can’t leave without talking about our time together on the short-lived CBS sitcom, ‘The Class.’ This episode was recorded at Lume in NYC’s West Village.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hey, it's Jesse. Today on the show, you know him from his Emmy Award winning performance on the bear, King Richard. He's known as Frank Castle, The Punisher. He is starring in an incredible production of Dog Day afternoon right now on Broadway. It's my good friend John Bernthal. When I'm playing Frank Castle, like, I'm not out like at the discotheque, you know, I'm not like eating like Chinese food or like, you know, like I'm, especially if I know that day I have to be in a really, really dark place. This is Dinner's On Me and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. So today I'm at Lou May in the West Village.

It's a little local brossary with a European cafe feel. John is staying in this neighborhood while he's doing dog day afternoon on Broadway. And I thought it would be the perfect place to grab an early morning breakfast. and catch up with my buddy. I don't know why he's up this early after a show that he just did last night, but I'm sure he'll let me know. He should be coming here soon,

so let's get to the conversation. I was shocked when I heard that you were going to be coming in at 9. You don't listen. I'm up early, no matter. Because I get up, I usually get up and go to the gym, and then I like to talk to Aaron right after she drops the kids off. Right. You know, I do the shows,

and then Sunday, right after our 2 o'clock show, my truck is parked out front of the theater. I get in my truck and I drive as fast as I can to D.C. And then I'm home for dinner. Then on Monday I coach football and I train my son boxing. And then I come back Tuesday for the show and pull right up to the theater. Such a good dad. I don't know about that.

It's nuts, though, man. How are you? Good morning, guys. How are you? My name's L.O. I'll be taking care of the day. Are we ready for some coffee or something? Yes, I want coffee. Okay, excellent.

What can I get for you guys? I'll do like a latte. Like an almond milk latte. Don't yell at me. Yeah, I didn't say anything. I didn't even judge you yet. I didn't even listen. And it's coming.

Oh, it's coming. Could I just get, do you have green tea by any chance? Did you have green tea? Thank you. Hot green tea. You know what I'm saying? Wow. Everybody said get on the tea.

And I was like, I ain't drinking tea. Black coffee. All right. I got to bring on the tea. Thank you, Ella. How are you settling into it? Because I saw you, you know, kind of at the apex of the creative process, you know, where you're working up to this opening night.

And like, obviously, I hope. hope that night was fun for you. Yeah, it was good. I mean, like, look, man, I think, uh, I mean, honestly, Jesse, I feel like, this whole thing has been, um, and I'm trying to be like, I'm not trying to be a douchebag now, but I'm trying to be, I'm just trying to be like dead honest. From the beginning of this process, it's been just like laden with, uh, kind of like these landmines. Like, it's been like kind of like one small, not to be too dramatic, but one small kind of like disaster after another, you know? And, and, um, the process was not easy. There was a lot of drama behind the scenes. It, it, it has been difficult, you know, like,

you know, my dear friend, you know, Ebben, like, had to miss the first two rehearsals because, like, a bear schedule because of, like, film, there's just been all these things along the way. And, and the truth is, is like, that is exactly what, you know, this guy is going through in, in robbing this bank. Like, nothing goes his fucking way. And so, like, Like, yeah, and the second, any time in this process where I felt, oh, wow, this is going well, something comes in and it, like, explodes. You know, you know. Sorry to interrupt, guys. It's okay, please.

Our specialty here at Lume is our avocado toast for breakfast with a fresh-baked facacha, but you can't go wrong, so. I'm going to get, you got eggs, right? We got eggs. You have eggs. Of course. Of course. A bear. A fucking high maid is.

So I want some eggs, some pancakes, and it, do you guys? Yeah, do you have any meat, like, sausage or bacon or anything? You want to do bacon? Like, I don't see that, though. Where is that? Bacon, bacon exists. We have it with our fraccia BLT, so we can make you make some strips. Amazing.

You just created your own. I know. Build your own. Like, you got to eat. You know, I'm not listening to Kaplan and make it out. I don't just order everything and not eat it. I'm going to get down. I'll eat every bit of it.

So good. I'm going to have the avocado toast. Like how simple that was. Sounds good. Okay, but like. No, no, no, no, no, no, I want you to have what you want. Thank you so much. Thank you.

Thank you. This is, you know, dinner on me, dude. Just let's go off. Fix it yourself. No, but you know, like, before a gluten-free pancake, that's like a very, that's a, that's a rare. Do you really? Yeah, and I didn't know that.

I didn't know, like, I don't know if you remember, but like, I mean, for like the, the beginning part of my life, you know, like the bathroom was like an emergency type situation. I don't remember that part of it. You don't remember my, my, I don't remember you having digestional issues. It was a huge thing. My whole life, I just thought that that was life. And when I went to Russia after I got back, I had my blood tested and I told me I had this thing called celiac disease.

Yeah, it's really serious. Yeah, it is serious. Can you not even touch it? It's the whole thing. Yeah, I get allergic to it. I mean, I get skin reactions to it if I touch it. But I'm, and like, you know, think about my brothers making fun of me for that. It's like, one was like deciding to be an actor.

And then it's like, can I get gluten free, you know, at every fucking restaurant? And the thing is I didn't, and this doctor told me that when I got back and I was like, you think I'm going to stop eating sandwiches and beer, go fuck yourself. And for 10 years, man, it just was like, I mean, you ask Aaron, it was like running through restaurants, knocking people over, trying to get, and that's just what I thought going to the bathroom was. And then, and then I actually came to New York to audition for a play, and I had a callback. Callback was two weeks later, and I live with my mom in D.C. for those two weeks. And she's like, let me just cook you all your meals, gluten-free. We just try it.

I'm like, fine, ma. And literally, yeah, it changed my life. So, yeah, I don't touch it now. I had no idea. Yeah, man. Yeah, man. A little insight. I love that little tidbit about you because you are like that, I mean, I know you probably

rage against that piece of yourself. But I follow it. I follow. I'm very strict about it. Yeah, well, good for you. Yeah. Okay, so I was going to ask you, though, are you now that you've opened and you've settled into some sort of a run, are you enjoying the problem?

the process. Yeah, you know, like to be able to be terrified at this point in my career and at this age in my life, I think is like so healthy. To like take that step. My favorite place in the world is like hanging out backstage like right before I go on.

Like at half hour, I'm there. It's like the only time where I'm like alone. Like I don't, you know, everybody has their rituals. I just like being alone and being like you're about to take this step. It does feel like I'm going in to go into a fight and I love that. I love that like

there is that moment of like I'm gonna be like you know because you know like I'm not up there alone but like once I'm on I'm fucking on you know and so I think there's that but I think what's also come about for me in this

is you know because I think people do associate me with certain things and I think even though I feel like well I think just like you know like a lot of people look at my work and the things that that that first comes to mind is like the Punisher or Walking Dead or like these sort of like hypermasculine.

Hyper, yeah, for what it depends on what your view of masculinity is. But like, you know, yeah, you know, like these like very muscular like kind of like. And I feel like there have been times where I've really tried maybe like what you're saying to do things to kind of play against that and to explore other sides of it. I've never been strategic kind of career wise in that way. I've always been like how do I work with the best people and the best stuff and the things that make my heart sing. But then it's essential for me to also find deeper meaning. And I think for me in this, you know, as like a dad of two boys and because people associate me with these things, to be able to be who I am and really tell this kind of love story that looks different than what a lot of people associate, you know, love stories with or love stories that I would be a part of, that's the gift. and that's the thing, that's my sword in this piece,

like that's the thing that I'm fighting for. I think that there's no question that, like, there's a level going in, you know, I was very aware that there's, like, an insane level of audacity to, like, try to, like, take this thing on because it is so iconic, and it is so sort of, like, steeped in the zeitgeist. And it is. It's, like, this classic, beautiful film

and this, like, legendary, you know, pair of performances and filmmaking. Yeah. You know, and I think that's, I think that you know I think this this play never purported itself to be a take on the film you know it's a real life story something that really

happened there's a book there's you know so much sort of like information about what happened there but I think that like the way that Stephen attacked it and Stephen Adley Gerges who's like you know like a very you know unbelievably like a genius playwright complicated guy

like interesting guy but has always sort of written about his he's in New York playwright who writes about like the forgotten New Yorkers and like gives them this like unbelievably like irreverent honest hilarious tragic voice and like I thought like that pairing was like really beautiful and I knew going in like we were going to get hit like I knew that like there were going to be people who are going to say how dare you how dare you try to do this and like look the last thing I would ever want to do like those guys and that performance in that movie like they sit on that mountain top for a, like, it's only reverence, but the way that the play works is that it has to be

its own thing. Yeah, I know for sure. It has to be. And, like, I've had to do it that way. And I know that that also might kind of people off, but like, again, for me, it's like, it's the heartbeat. That's the big swing, I think, that we're just talking about. And I think it's, you know, it doesn't always pay off and it's paying off in huge ways. I mean, it's, it's wildly successful. Not for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, John and I take a trip down memory lane and reminisce about our time on the short-lived sitcom The Class and how that job shaped us into the actors we are today.

Plus, John tells a really moving story about his pit bull boss who was a familiar face on many of his sets. Certainly, I remember him from the class. Oh, rest in peace, boss. Okay, be right back. Right now, our family is living that New York theater life. I'm performing in a play right now called True, where I get to play Truman Capote, and the kids are here with me, and I'm working in the city, which is amazing. I love it so much. It also means I'm juggling a lot. Between rehearsal schedules, school drop-offs, figuring out dinner in between shows, and then making sure everyone has what they need, it's hard enough just getting through the day, let alone planning ahead. And while we're here in New York fully immersed in this season of life, it got me, thinking about how our place back home is just sitting empty.

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You can't rationalize it. You can't figure it out. There was rampant speculation about everything. But every wild theory was wrong, because the truth was even more unbelievable. Is anyone hearing what I'm hearing? And even more heartbreaking. The uncertainty of not knowing is a form of agony. From Sony Music Entertainment and novel, this is Cut Color Kill. I'm Jonathan Hirsch.

Cut Color Kill is available now on The Binge. Search for it wherever you get your podcast to start listening today. Subscribers to The Binge can listen to all episodes, all at once, add free. And we're back with more dinners on me. I was really just blown away by you. And also hearing that you've fought for it really, I don't know. I mean, of course you did. And I think that that is something that we obviously have to do,

fight for these things that people don't necessarily see us as. Did you, I mean, I feel like that. I feel like I also read somewhere that you had to fight for King Richard too pretty hard. Oh, yeah. And that, you know, that's also a role that I feel like when I look at, you know, that's not, it doesn't line up with the roles that, you know, you were kind of known for. But then also, it very much lines up with the role that I met you doing. Sure.

Because 20 years ago, I, we haven't even really talked about it, but like, we did the show called The Class, which was a one-season sitcom. that sort of sits like in this from in our careers I think and sort of this like um almost like invisible pocket like not a lot of people know about it and it's a very like blink and you miss it kind of thing but super formative for both of us and in crazy ways I mean you know for me it was my first time having a TV job me too I yeah I mean and I just it was the first time I was entrusted with something big like that and like I felt like I had a real person job And, you know, being with this cast of people that, you know, again, came from the theater world.

And here I was with, like, people I just felt like I would never encounter, like, Lucy Punch and Lizzie Kaplan and you and like, and just Jason Ritter. And, you know, I had people from the theater world, like Julie Halston, who plays your mother and Sam Harris. Like, some of those people were, like, familiar to me, but like all these other ones. David Keith. David. David. Like, again, like, so like, what the fuck. How am I in a scene with David Keith?

I mean And that role is sort of like I see glimmers of that role I mean obviously you've grown so much as an artist since then But like you know I saw glimmers of him when I watched King Richard And I seek glimmers of that and you know dog day afternoon even Just that willingness to be goofy and silly Well I mean Jesse you and me I mean it was like

It was you know man formative it's like not you know like that that show like that experience like I don't know it yeah it's everything it's like it's kind of you know it's like the baseline sort of for for everything I felt the same way like like holy shit like every day was like you know you're still just so full of that like pinch me what the fuck am I doing here like I'm allowed to just drive onto the lot like I have a parking spot like I have a dressing room like and like every part of it was magic walking to lunch was magic you know like walk around the dog throwing the football going to like the warner brothers gym you know like these you remember training me at the warner brother's gym one day like we both ended up i don't know

if you remember this i don't remember that but it's so on brand it was only like for like i think i let you do it for like maybe 30 minutes to 40 minutes i was like i'm done we got to stop now i was in there just like probably doing some sit-ups and you come in with you like you're like probably a trainer or whatever i probably had pit bulls you had pit bulls with you you know chains and tires and things. And then you're like, come on, Jedd. No, get up, get up, we're going to do this. And like, you start yelling at me.

And you basically train me for 30 minutes. And I was like, I'm done. I'm tapping out. But like, it was also magic. And like things like, you know, like going to the up front. So, like, doing press was like, it was such a, you were like, wow, it was so great. But it was the people. It was really just that there was like this group of like everyone was such a bad.

and what they did. And everyone was so invested in each other and watching each other's scenes and rooting each other's on. We all ate together and, you know, partied together at the smokehouse. And I don't know. You know, it was like, I don't know, but I felt like you and me especially, I felt like in a way we were the kind of newest. Like we really were like hadn't done this kind of thing before.

And we, you know, and our stuff like was so great. They ended up pairing us together. Which was so great. I never saw it coming when I read the pilot. Me neither. And then it was sort of like this odd couple. Yeah. And yeah, I mean, I loved it.

I loved all of our stuff that we had together. And I remember specifically there was something where we're sitting on a... Like scaffolding. And we could not get through the scene. Yeah, we were just laughing so hard. Yeah. I think the outtakes are probably on YouTube somewhere. But like it is some of the greatest memories of my career.

I agree. I agree, I agree, I agree, man. I agree, I agree. And, like, you know, and just like such, such wonderful people and, and, and, and, and, like, such a, such a wonderful time. And, like, look, I think for me, I think while I was there, you know, I felt like I wasn't suited for it. Like, I felt like this medium or this, this thing is not, like, you know, like, all, you

know, it was that, that whole outsider. Well, anyone who knows you're, like, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're, your career and like knows which you're known for if like you said oh john started his career on a situation especially that half hour multi-timore live studio audience yeah yeah yeah yeah no he did it no way no yeah no way yeah i know i know and that one too because it was all that show was all heart i mean like that's that's that that's that's what it was and like i don't know i just like there there are certain things that you do in your life and certain people that you meet and and you know i don't know whether it's the alchemy of like the human beings that are there or the project or the time.

But like it's just, it's indelible. It's like they're in your heart. They're in your soul forever. And I do, it's like I see you. No time has passed. I feel that way with everybody on that show. I wish I just got to see people more. I just wish that there was more, more of it, you know.

But you're saying you didn't feel like you were. I just felt, I just think that, I think that I, I just, felt that like you know like it was almost like a fluke that I got in you know like I felt like I didn't it's not like I ever in a million years because you remember like during that time I was like auditioning for the Pacific

I remember like being outside I think we were like on the lot and I was like Jesse Jesse just hey let me just do this model for you one time you're like John you've done this for me like said just watch it just watch it one time watch it like a fucking psychopath and I like worked up and like I just think that I thought that

like my skill set or whatever would lend itself to a different medium. Like I remember kind of like having that conversation with Anders, with Andrew, just like saying to her like, I don't know, like I can, I feel like I might be able to do this, but I don't know that I would be able to keep doing it.

And who knows, like how different things would have been if I had been able to go do another kind of like comedy. Or if that show had gone. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. Let's fucking go.

I mean, you see that. Not one pancake, but two. That's all right. Don't judge it. Everything's, wow, there's three, huh? Ah, I've been off a little more.

I can chew here. Thank you so much. There's a plate number four for John. We have bowl. Bacon, amazing. Oh, my God, five plates. Look, I'm just going to dump this on here. Look, see how I do.

Look at this monster. I'll give that to you back. Thank you. Now what are you going? Listen, I don't know if people really. You still have four plates going. I know, but I feel like maybe, like, on this, like, I'm not going to be, I'm not going to be the least bit self-conscious.

I don't want you to be. Because I'm on this very weird eating schedule, Jesse, with this play. Like, I don't eat, I eat breakfast, and that's kind of it. Yeah. You know what I mean? And part of me was like, you know, maybe what I'll do is I'll go eat something, so I'm not like a complete fucking barbarian on his show. Can you imagine?

I just kind of be the barbarian, all right? Be the barbarian. I'm not mad at you. I'm happier eating. You know what I remember? First of all, is boss still around? The boss is not around, but you remember how great. Great.

How special. Was your first dog? He was my first dog. He's a man. And, and Boston Venice. Remember, he had that little sidekick Venice? Yes, yeah. But boss, you know, was with me.

He was on set every day of the Walking Dead. He was on, you know, every set, you know, he crossed the country like 50 times, no lease. Wolf of Wall Street, he was on set. I ended up doing a play in L.A. called Small Engine Repair. And then this play went and moved to the Lortel here. And I couldn't do the play here because I had to go do that movie Fury. but Boss was backstage every day when we did that play

and he was just a real huge part of it my friend John Polano who's a beautiful playwright director and actor 10 years later we did the movie version of Small Engine Repair in New York and he said look and boss was like on his last legs like they had already given him they gave him like a month to live and he had already gone a year past that He had really bad cancer all through his body.

He was 15 years old. But he said, look, Boss like needs to be in this movie. So we drove him across country. He was in upstate New York, and he was like the most pampered member of the cast. But I tell you this story because right after that, I went on to do, I think, the Sopranos movie in New York. And Boss went down to D.C. To get him out of New York while I was shooting The Sopranos. And now he's just, it had been like two months since I'd seen him.

we had finished this movie. He did such a great job. And Lauren and I, we worked until like three in the morning one night. And I said, let's go down to D.C. and go see Boss, you know? And we like rolled down there and we saw him. It was so great. We took him to the river. He swam. We had this great day together. We went to sleep. And then the next day, Lauren left the house with Bam Bam to go take them running. And I went out and I was just sitting on, uh, outside on this rocking chair. And boss like came trotting over to me. Uh, and I, it was like this beautiful day. It was like he was smiling and he put his head like right on my lap. He really was like my best friend in the world.

He put his head right on my lap and looked at me and wagged his tail. And I'm like, what's up, dude? I gave him a big kiss. He gave me a kiss. And he just like jogged off into the woods. I went upstairs and I got in the shower and then it hit me and I was like, oh man, he was saying goodbye. And I hadn't seen him in two months.

And I was just there with that one night. We had that one perfect night together. And then I walked downstairs and I found him and he was gone. And I like, you know, I was like alone. with the sun and the trees and his, and I just was, like, crying. And I was like, but then I was hit with this, like, overwhelming sense of gratitude.

Like, what a great, like, thing we had all the way to the, like, this fucking guy. He even, like, he even, like, went out right. He even died perfectly. He even died perfectly. And, like, yeah, that was boss. So, yeah, rest in peace. He's with me, man.

Like, I, that dog was, like, one of one, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now let's take a quick break, but don't go away. When we return, John tells me why he relates so deeply to his character and the Punisher. And John tells me about his perspective on method acting. Okay, be right back. And we're back with more dinners on me. I listened to your episode with Lizzie.

Yeah. It was so great to, I mean, it's like... Lizzie Kaplan, yeah. First of all, this is such a great thing. It's such a cool way of doing it. Yeah. And I really love the podcast, but, like, I really love... like I really felt like I was with you guys and I like I like I love her so much man like I

like I like I she's like one of those people you know who and you and you too man like that I think like what would they do in this situation like how would they approach this like how would they think about this and you know Lizzie Lizzie's just like you know she it's not just like she she always like with her work she always surprises me there's always a different doesn't she always do the coolest I feel like the minute after the class ended I was like she's like she only does great shit but it's also like she does great shit but then she like

there's nothing that she's done in the past that would tell you that she could do this and then she does it and then she crushes it but besides work she's just like I don't know such a such a deep feeling deep thinking a fun, kind, good, soulful person.

And I don't know. I just, I like, I really love her. And she was really, you know, when I did get in trouble back in 2009,

you know, she was really, she really helped me out with something beautiful. You know, she, you know, I had to like,

because I was like, you know, I had issues with like getting angry and like doing bad shit. This was a few years after the class in it.

I remember. A few years after the class, but I was like in that whole, thing, you know, like drinking and I was getting in trouble and all that stuff. And, you know, man, I just had those issues since I was a kid. And it was really somebody that she had me go talk to, you know, really, really was instrumental in helping me with that. And like, I'm forever indebted to her. And I just, uh, I love her. And it was just so great to like hear you guys, you know? It was,

beautiful. No, I was so excited that she had said yes. And you too. I mean, like, I've been wanting you to do this for a long time. Um, I love, I mean, I, I mean, I think I could keep in touch with all the people from the class. Yeah, I mean, I try. How's Lucy? Lucy's good. I saw her. Lucy Punch came to, I had a birthday party, a 30-50 birthday birthday, a 40-50.

Justin turned 40, I turned 50. We're a decade apart. And she showed up to that. And I don't see her very much, but like I always love seeing her. She's always like a little sweaty and like, oh, she's always like pushing her hair aside. She's always like a little haggard. She's always just run out of petrol on the highway or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

She's a mom. Andrea, Anders is a mom. Lizzie Kaplan's a mom. We're dads. Sean McGuire's a dad. I mean, Jason Ritter's a dad. We're all parents now. It's crazy.

All of us are parents. It's crazy. It's wild. It was so funny because, like, it was really interesting for me to sort of watch where everyone's careers went afterwards. And, like, you know, I mean, Lizzie was off doing, like, you know, cool JJ Abrams films. And, like, you were doing The Walking Dead, which I fucking love so much. And then, you know, I mean, I, I think I got swept up in this show that, like, you know, really, like.

Huge, yeah. It was massive. And it was, that was a very wild ride for me. And I do feel like, even though the class didn't take off, just that moment of sort of having this experience in Hollywood amongst people I really trusted allowed me to kind of enjoy the thing that did take off in a way that I don't know if I would have if I had not had. Something that I loved that didn't. That didn't work. I mean, like, I think about that all the time. I mean, it's kind of like what I was saying about this play and like the lumps and like the lumps are really important.

man like they really are and like we were we were like I mean I didn't know shit about and ratings or like how it worked but I was I just was like okay so what does that mean what does that mean so we're up or down we're like well that's down down's bad you know like we were so attuned to it and what was cool again was like it wasn't just like wow we want to keep working we're actually like making money now we can support ourselves we're out of this it's like we loved each other and we wanted to keep making the show and we believed in the show we believed in the relationships we believed in our characters we really wanted it to keep going and it was like not kind of keep going you know there was like a there

was like bumps in the road where it was like okay okay we're going to get a little bit more but we're not going to get all the way and like I don't know if we're going to be able to keep doing this and and I think about that stuff especially early in my career because you know you I don't know whether you went through the same thing but like before the class there was for me there was a few years where it was like just like lump after lump you know I mean like everybody who's been doing it has to take the the door slammed in their face and that whole whole whole whole outsider thing and me feeling like my nose is as big as fucking Long Island and like I had these big dumb boy.

Like people like did not want to fucking like get out of here ugly like no like you're not a leading man. You're not a character dude. You're not like what these fucking, you know, these casting directors being like, no. You know, like I felt that. And then the class came around and then I was like, of course, of course it's kind of, like of course it's kind of good. You know, and then like some shit sort of happened like that on the Pacific.

And then Walking Dead happens. and I'm like, wow, okay, this is exactly what I'm supposed to be doing. Like, this is the exact character I'm supposed to be playing at the exact time with the exact right cast, with the exact right person at the head of Frank Darabond who, like, totally sees me. And like, this is, and then boom, it takes off. But then I'm killed, right? Like, and I knew that.

I knew going in, like, he wasn't going to last. Well, you got two seasons, right? Two seasons. But, like, you know, like the first season was only six episodes, and it was, It was, but again. God, that character had such an impact. Crazy, right? Shane, I remember the name of the character.

Yeah, I mean, it was so great. And it was such a good, but the reason why I bring it up is because, like, at the time, at the time when the class gets canceled, at the time when, like, your role from the Pacific gets changed and doesn't. Or at the time when you're, like, riding high on this unbelievable rocket ship of a show. And then it, like, you, it gets to keep going, but you got to go away. You know, any one of those times, it's exactly what we're talking about, you know, doing this play every night. It's like you can either look at that. And I do love that about what we get to do. And I think everybody can probably find this in whatever job they do or whatever they have in their life.

But I really try to just imprint this on my kids is that in any situation, like you can look at it, you know, through either lens. And you don't know how it's going to play out ever. And I think the fine line between this life that we chose of not knowing what's going to come next and the terror of like it can all come. come to an end and oh my gosh the phone could stop ringing and oh my gosh like I'm never going to be able to like work with these people again is such a close cousin it's so akin to oh my god who knows who's calling tomorrow right who knows who's the next great relationship I'm going to have who knows the next thing that I'm going to do that's really got to make me grow and and I've just had enough time in the box now to know that it's always too soon to call it like you can't judge it in the moment

and like you got to see and and the lumps end up being really really big gifts if you look at them right. Well, I mean, did you ever imagine that, like, something like, the Punisher would, like, parlay into, like, a few different spinoffs and, like, your own show? And now, like, didn't you write on the new one? This last one. So, Evan and I wrote this sort of standalone bear. No way.

Yeah, and it's coming out. If we're just going to drop it. I'm so proud of it. And, you know, I've been writing a lot. I did. I wrote that, and then I wrote the Punisher thing. And then I have this show that I've been working on that's at FX that that's

about Shreveport, Louisiana, that's like my heart. But like, yeah, with Punisher, you know, I mean, it's like, you know, it's funny, I never wanted, I never, in a million years, like the guys, I've said it before and it's, I just got, did this interview with Esquire

and I kind of got called out for it, but it was like, you know, I said years ago, like, the guys I really respected, like, all kind of like steered away from the superhero stuff. and I think there is some truth to that definitely not across the board but I think that that was just like a really kind of like, you know, immature stupid thing to say

because like there's so many guys that I deeply respect that have done it. But you know, for me like that character and like who that, like it was never something that I saw it out like wearing a cape and like flying and being able to do all this different shit but like who that guy is you know as just like a father and a husband

who lost his family And he's got no superpowers. He's just trained by the United States Marine Corps. Again, completely organic to I think like your... Dude, it's like, you know, like, what's the worst fear of your life? You know, like, what is something that you can't even begin to think about? And it's that. And it's like, I just have always found, like, if you find the most scary thing and you run at it,

like, that's where you're going to grow the most as an artist. And I can't believe it. It's really incredible. Yeah, yeah. So I'm proud of the course that we've taken on. And yeah, it's been a, it's been a more than anything, the relationships that I've been able to sort of foster through that character, I'm just really proud of. Yeah, yeah. And they've just added so much to my life.

Yeah. And I know I mentioned it earlier, but like I started watching his and hers when you were coming on here. And I was, now I'm, you know, totally invested. So I'm like, crap, I'll finish this. It's really good. It's really good. I loved it. Yeah.

Thanks, buddy. Talk to me a little bit. just before we go, talk to me about method acting. Are you really a method actor? Jesse, no, man. I read that somewhere. Look, I think... So dushy.

I think... I don't understand anything about method acting. No, man. Look, I... But, you know, like, look, Jesse, if you and me are going to go play Richie... Like, if we're going to go do Duncan and Richie, right? And, like, you...

Like, you and me, whether it's intentional or not, are going to get into a kind of banter that I think sort of represents our characters. Like we're both going to try to bring ourselves or who we are that day to the part. And look, I will never be in a situation. Well, but hey, call me Frank Castle. Right, right, right, right.

Like, it's my fucking pancake. Like, you'll never see that. And I'm not, but I think, I think what I do do is I think especially on camera, you know, it's all about like the proximity to, you know, Like you got all these people working super hard for just like these few seconds between action and cut. Those seconds are sacred.

Like all this time, all this energy, all this money, right? It's like it's all about that time. So just the same way that like we wake up in the morning and we're like careful of our voice. Like we are that time when we step on that's sacred. So it's like what do you have to do to kind of get in there? And so like in each thing is different. But I will tell you that like, yeah, when I'm playing Frank Castle like I'm not out like at the discotheque.

you know, like I'm not like eating like Chinese food or like, you, you know, like I'm, I'm, especially if I know that that day I have to be in a really, really dark place. I'm not seeking out conversation. I'm not, you know, and look, there's times where I've gone really extreme with it, if that's what kind of like the park calls for, if that's what the movie calls for. And I think if there's an infrastructure in place, like when I did that movie Fury, the whole movie was designed that way. Like the whole experience was designed to like psychologically like make no difference between like life what's in life and what's on film.

And he wanted like the darkest, most depleted stripped down versions of us. And you know, and I'm down to play a lot. Like what an opportunity. What an opportunity to go live on a 75 year old Sherman tank and like do it for real? Like yeah. Like shit and piss and eating the tank. Like when else am I ever going to have that experience? And it's not like what I find.

confusing about method acting and people who like take it I think a little bit too far is it can be really loud I think a lot of it sometimes is like kind of telegraphing like she how hard I'm working what you do right I did a hundred push-ups before this scene how made you do like and I think that that is kind of absurd and because I think at the end of the day like if your shit is making any at the end of the day we always just got to remember that we're human beings like that like I remember cherry Jones spoke at at at at AART when I was leaving And she said, you know, the three most important things about being an actor is always live within your means. You know, don't get a big paycheck and go spend it. I don't know if I followed that that well. Never let your personal happiness and your career success be related. Like, keep them fucking different. And I think, I would imagine that both of us have been able to, like, do a pretty good job with that, you know, just the way that we were raised and the way that we live our lives. And the third one is to always remember.

it's all about the people that you meet along the way. Like, at the end of the day, it's the relationships. It's like, that's the true gift of this thing. And I think whatever your methodology is, it's got to be inclusive. It can't be, like, I never want to put a wall between you and me, and I never want my process to impinge on yours. And if you have a process, and I can be a part of that, like, let's roll. Like, let's see.

I think ensemble and the other person is always more important than, you know, the self. And that's where you get stuff that's, like, two people can always do. something more special than one. No, I really tell that. So, yeah. Yeah, dude, I'm not a psychopath, you fuck it. Well. You know, I mean, I'm my own guy, you know what I mean?

Like you are. Just the right amount of psychopath. Thank you, buddy. Just and I love every more slit of it. Thank you. I really appreciate you doing this. Oh, you kidding? And the next time.

I love spending the time with you, man. Well, I would like to have done this without a whole set out. They're not. We'll do it again. We'll do it again. We'll do you, we'll do it again. I got so much to ask you. This is what to talk about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This episode of Dinner's On Me was recorded at Lume in Manhattan's West Village. Next week, on Dinners on Me, you know her from Desperate Housewives, the Lincoln lawyer, and only murders in the building. It's Ava Longoria. We'll get into her sharp instincts both in front of and behind the camera, the journey from modeling to breakout roles to producer and director, and how she's redefined what it means to be a powerhouse in Hollywood.

And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinners On Me Plus. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad free.

Just click Try Free at the top of the Dinners On Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinner's On Me is a production of Sony music entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced

by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf. Sam Bear engineered this episode. Hans Dale She composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tamika Balance Kalasni and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson.

Join me next week.