Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Jonathan Van Ness

Episode Date: October 10, 2023

Author, podcaster, and JVN Hair founder Jonathan Van Ness joins the show. Over martinis and oysters, Jonathan tells us what it’s like to live in Texas as a queer person, coming out as HIV positive, and of course, figure skating. This episode of Dinner’s On Me was recorded at Bad Roman in NYC. Want next week’s episode now? Subscribe to Dinner’s on Me PLUS. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, but you’ll also be able to listen completely ad-free! Just click “Try Free” at the top of the Dinner’s on Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. A Sony Music Entertainment & A Kid Named Beckett production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

If you like a little danger with your romance and come on who doesn't, there's a new showtime original limited series for EO. Fellow travelers from the writer of Philadelphia and the network that brought us homeland and the affair is part epic love story, part political thriller, and all in on one big secret. It's this story of the risky, volatile, and very steamy relationship between two political staffers who fall in love at the height of the lavender scare. That's the McCarthy era campaign against gay government employees that you may not have learned about in school. Matt Boemer and John Lombardley star as lovers whose fiery and forbidden affair intensifies through the anti-war protests of the 60s, the discocene of the 70s and the

AIDS crisis of the 80s, all despite the constant threat being exposed and losing everything, including each other. Don't miss the series premiere of Fellow Travelers streaming October 27th with the Paramount Plus with Showtime Plan. Hi, it's Jesse. Today on the show, activist, author, founder of JVN Hair, Jonathan Van Ness. I am a very spiritual person, I actually really do think Jesus is pretty cool. I'm not even sure if I'm not Christian. I don't know.

I went to Christian sports camp every summer, I've accepted Jesus into my heart lots of times. So on Judgement Day, if it goes down, y'all are fucked. I'm totally going to heaven because like, I'm British, like if it goes down, y'all are fucked, I'm totally going to heaven because like, I'm pretty sure I'll forget my, like, forget my sins or whatever. I like, this is dinners on me, and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson.

[♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ Waiting for Jonathan Venness to arrive for dinner was like waiting for Santa Claus to arrive. Not only was I already a fan of their work and advocacy, but we shared a handful of friends who always told me how much Jonathan and I would get along. I can't believe you've never met JVN, you two are gonna love each other with something I was told on multiple occasions. In preparation for our conversation, I learned just how deep and wise Jonathan is. Their evolution is wildly inspiring to me

and their knowledge and passion around queer rights is downright humbling. The best part is that all of this is delivered in a package that has made Jonathan a beloved public figure. They are hilarious, deep and full of self-love and self-awareness. I knew my dinner with Jonathan was going to be a wild ride and I was buckled in and ready to go.

I invited JVN as his friends apparently call him to bad Roman off Columbus Circle. You'll have to google this place because it's visually amazing. It's like a very whimsical and sexy acid trip. There's neon, there's statues, there's a green marble bar. Oh and on top of all of that delicious food, of course. Given Jonathan is such an effervescent person who lives their life in full color, I just felt this was the perfect spot for us to have a conversation. So wait, you live in Texas. I do, but I live between here and Texas.

Okay, yeah, Austin's really cool. And green and love Austin. It's like so cool. I didn't know that it was that pretty. You know? The best solar paste. Yes, and exactly. And I was like really like after being in LA in New York

for 10 years and then like becoming myself publicly, like it was really good for my nervous system to like take a little off the passport. And then I was like, come here for work, you know. What's it like actually living there? No, it's really been like a conundrum because it was not that it was like a queer utopia when I arrived there in March of 2020,

but we hadn't seen like such a meteoric rise and like anti-trans and anti-queer legislation. And it really has been weird. I make this analogy a lot in my life and I don't know what's wrong with me, but Dante's peak with Pierce Brosnan and that one, like you. Okay, like remember when he makes the analogy

of you put the boiling frog in the boiling, it's like that I've been there getting boiled to death, so I feel like when I leave, I'm like, oh, I really notice it, but it is really bad. I don't think that a lot of my coastal peers understand necessarily how bad it is. Hi. Oh my god, I'm obsessed with you.

Come on with your two gorgeous burrades. Yes. Oh my god, there's more than two. There's more. There's more. Good for you, honey. So these are my knees welcome to bathroom. Do we drink alcohol in this podcast? Yeah, if you want. It is kind of like late in the afternoon, you know. These are the knees welcome to bathroom. Do we drink alcohol in this podcast?

Yeah, if you want. It is kind of like late in the afternoon, you know. These are the cocktails if you want. I think I already know what I'm gonna go. What are you gonna get? I thought my whole life, I hate him or tease. My whole life I've been walking around like, being like, oh, I fucking don't like those.

I don't like all that stuff. So it turns out they're amazing. And I just needed to get them with a twist, not all of this. Oh, okay. I do a twist, don't like it dirty. them with a twist, not all of this. Oh, okay. I do a twist, don't like it dirty, and then I like it really, really cold, and then like without the ice-chung sun top. Yeah, yeah, that's how I like it.

That's how I like it. It's like, we've been stirred, not shaken. I don't know what the difference is, and I explain that whole thing every time I've been ordering it since June of this year, since I got into my titties, do you ever like by yourself telling the same story over and over, and you can't help it?

My husband's like, you told told me this literally this morning. So it's not just me. No. I think it's like me just getting old. Not me loving the story. I'm my 80-year-old. She and her true self thoughts are winning and I don't I'm scared to ask because I don't want you to be like girl I've been doing that for 10,000 years and then I put myself on friend's street from not wicking you before I got here. But like,

have you ever, have you ever stand up queen? No, I mean I love love, by the way, both Margaret Cho and you know Harvey say hello to you, I said I was gonna be sitting down with her. I love Margaret so much. I know you do. I know you do. I would like literally like,

I would do anything for her, like I would be her having contacts. You give stand up. I love her so much. She's the one who told me that I was meant to be a stand up. Oh really? I literally almost shit my pants. Do you know what I said?

She was like, girl, you're meant to be a stand-up comedian. And without missing a beat, I said I was meant to be your hairdresser. Are you living back in LA now? Cause drop to diva. I just finished. And she was like my first celebrity client. And she was also like the first comedian that I ever really idolized. Yes, me too.

So important, I love her so much. So important, yeah. But I trailblazer. I have not done stand-up comedy myself. Do you ever hear her? Do you ever hear her? Do you ever hear her into your standard comedy? No, not really. I mean, I do theater.

And so I did like a one-man show on Broadway. I was basically kind of felt like standard comedy. It basically is. Yeah, but I mean, you know, playing characters in like, kind of, yeah. But it could be. Dialects. Oh, yeah.

But they could all be in services of jokes. I feel like you could be like that, like HBIC of Kami who just like comes in and is like actually, look what's been in here all along. I love that you're doing it. I'm obsessed with it. I'm so excited to order a drink. You know what you want, you can do it.

I already talked about it, and I'm so excited to talk about it again, are you ready? Can I have like that like, I would love a martini with a twist. I'm gonna have the phony Negroni. Motel pretty pretty handy. Thank you. Thanks, honey. I'm waiting to tell me you were talking about Texas Wait a Texas have a roast go to something serious. So yeah, so it's really been interesting being there I do feel like I kind of have been getting there getting boiled but I feel like this

It's like a long game. It's not a short game. Absolutely. It reminds me a lot of Georgia, you know, like 15 years ago, no one would have said that Georgia would have elected like two Democratic senators and then delivered a Democratic president to the country. Yeah. So it's a long game. So that's what I tell myself, but I do miss my friends in LA and New York, and I miss living in a state where I don't be like the legislator is specifically trying to make my life and people like me's life harder and like less welcome. Yeah. Yeah, man, it's gotta be taxing on just the psyche. I'm from New Mexico, in Justin and I, we were fighting for marriage equality. We went to a few different states to meet with, you know, people who are in post-Amarriage equality. And it's always that thing where you're having this like very personal conversation with them,

you're giving a face to this thing that you're hoping will be pushed through. And there's such kindness there, and then you turn around and then votes go the other way against this thing you've just basically asked for. And it's heartbreaking. So I mean, how do you take care of yourself in Texas when things get like that?

I mean, like you, my husband has very nice eyes. So when I'm really stressed, I look into his eyes and I'm like, and then, no, it really is him. Friends, family, also it's like hope. And also, I grew up in Illinois, which is obviously, like we have Chicago think God, but what I'm from is this county called Adams. And it's like five hours southwest of Chicago and but what where I'm from is this county called Adams and it's like five hours Southwest of Chicago and actually like where I'm from like voted for Trump

I think that's it pulls in 2020 or three to one wow so very rural very conservative so in a lot of ways I'm quite used to the like environment. I know how to like survive I guess, but I do feel Different living in Texas as far as like I I typically don't find myself wearing heels to dinner because I feel like there's a better chance I'm gonna have to run. In New York, I'm much more comfortable to wear what I wanna wear in Texas. I'm a little bit like I think twice.

I think about like, where am I gonna be getting in and out of the cars or parking close to that safe space or is there blocks between you and the safe space? And that is even an Austin. So, and obviously like hate can happen anywhere and I do think that we live in a more radicalized climate and it happens anywhere. But I do feel more aware of it in Austin.

I'm listening to your book right now. You're not. Yeah, I love, I love, love, love when the author reads their own books because it's just, first of all, it's so unabashedly you and then hearing you speak to your story is really moving, but you were pretty much as a kid,

very secure with yourself, and very comfortable with your flamboyancy at a young age. Certainly more so than I was. I think I've always been like a very non-binary queen, even before I had like words for it. So I think it's really possible to be like, maybe really secure with aspects of yourself and at the same time still dealing with like self-loathing, like you know, and trying to like homophobia, transphobia, whatever. I mean, so it feels like I was really born,

you know, like this, like I loved evening gowns. Michelle Kwan was my hero only after, you know, Chrissy Amaguchi retired. And also as a child, I thought I really wanted to be famous as well. Like I was like, but I don't, I can't sing or dance or figure skate. So how, how's the talent list me going to nail this? I don't understand, but whenever I went to the mall, I was like, made sure to really look cute in case of talent scout like got me. But it was really this idea of like, I had dreams, I had goals. The universe told me like, those were not for me.

And then I kind of let those go. And then they ended up kind of coming back to me. Like my dreams came true, which has been really an exciting space to be in. Which it feels to me. Thank you. Ah, that looks so delicious. Thank you.

Yeah, I guess you really, it does have to be more motel briefs. Like I'm a guest. I maybe wouldn't get like, I can keep us on the tracks. Yeah, no, I'm gonna like fully drink on this. I love it so much. I feel so safe in your hands.

Like arms, I'm very happy that you feel safe. Tell us it so much. I feel so safe and you're like arms. I'm very happy to have you feel safe. Tell us everything. Curate the shit out of this experience. I'm so excited. So I will be bringing a garlic drop cut. It's roasted, but it's made out of some salt, so full of fresh fruit.

Oh my God. A spicy jam Caesar salad. So a classic Caesar with shaved collaboration chili right on top. Wait for you, we are going to send some oysters with a cherry pepper mignonnet, as well as a chicken scarpiala rigatoni for your main course. You're getting the brieos, you don't fuck with oysters. Yeah, because you are going to get the lobster pasta, two-pound lobster with a calabrian

chili vodka sauce pasta in the middle. Amazing, thank you. Wow. I was kind of, what about what I was going to pass it in the middle. Amazing, thank you. Wow. I was kind of, what was gonna say? What brought you your success is that great authenticity that you embraced about yourself as someone who wasn't able to be super authentic. I know, well, no, but I had to grow into that.

I was just, and I would love to hear more about your childhood. I mean, I'm like, what kind of friends you had as a kid? I mean, yeah, I'm a survivor of sexual abuse. I come from a very conservative space with a very well-known family. I come from my family owned a broadcasting company that had TV stations, newspapers, and radio stations. So growing up was even though things were hard,

I remember at that time, is this very queer kid who answered to Faggot and who was surviving sexual abuse and having all these eating disorders and really dealing with some heavy stuff. I remember thinking it could be a lot worse. I was never like, couldn't have a roof over my head. I knew I was going to have food and other kids did have it worse in other ways. So I do think that there was an intrinsic part of me that was like,

always knew if I could get out of there. And then I would get out of there. So yeah, I was weird. Like it was good and it was bad. And so much of my stand-up is about like duality. And I think about duality a lot. Some of your best memories can live right next door to your like worst and hardest, but they don't have to invalidate each other.

So I really have like a much like warmer place in my heart for looking on my childhood than I think I did when I was like just leaving there. Right, right. What's happening, what's coming here? This one looks gorgeous. We have the rice and garlic sauce. That looks delicious.

The most delicious garlic vodka. She's the most beautiful crunchy looking bread right now, you guys. Let's use it beautiful crunchy looking bread right now, you guys. Let's use a little loaf we have. Thank you. Thank you. Talk to me a little bit about the evolution of you

becoming non-binary. That was like a, was that something that always was, like a definition you were searching for? Mm. No, it's just something that I definitely always was, and am. It's really when I met my friend Aloke, who is, I don't know if you've ever heard of Aloke, but they're one of the most incredible poets,

comedians, writers, producers, thought leaders, just one of my favorite people of all time. And they were really the one who taught me about what non-binary is. Once they explained to me what that was, I was like, oh, that's exactly, but everyone has a kind of like a different experience with like their non-binary identity,

non-binary and like gender diverse expressions have existed for thousands and thousands of years on every single continent. So that's very true. But it wasn't something that I was necessarily searching for, but I do think, especially because I'm also someone who's dealt with sexual compulsivity, which can happen a lot of times when you're a survivor

of sexual abuse, like everyone deals with their abuse in different ways. And for me, it made me really just an absolute husse for a long time. Like I just was spuckin' everything that was inside down. Not at all, but you know, when you're doing things that you were grattin' that you aren't in control of, that's for me, and so for me I found that

really any sort of of my feminine expression was such a repulsion to me that I really banished that part of myself as I came into my 20s because I was like, oh my God, if I want these dudes to, it's like my list was all that they could handle. So I had to hide my heels, hide my wigs, hide my makeup, I I want these dudes to, you know, it's like my list was all that they could handle. So I had to like hide my heels, hide my wigs, hide my makeup, I always had to like

hidden in a little bit of my closet. Remember like this one trick found my shoes and I was like, oh, my sister with huge feet. My sister with my huge footed sister with bad taste was here with bad taste. Yeah, with bad taste because she shops at pay less. It's the only place that I've shoes big enough for a big ass fee, you know.

So yeah, like it just was like a more shame-based place. And then I realized like once a number of people I had sex with got like a comma in it. And I had been to like rehab a few times. I realized that I was like, oh, like sacrificing like who I am to like have this like fleeting connection that actually makes me feel worse about myself isn't worth it.

Like I don't want to sacrifice myself anymore. And then I got to this place of healing and therapy. That was like in my mid to late 20s. And really, I didn't still have the language for what non-binary meant, but just didn't feel like I never edited myself for dating or sex ever again. Right. Right. Well, I still don't try to shit or fart

in front of my husband and we've been married for like three years. No seriously, then back to when one more on the plane together. But I'm sitting next to him, I'm like, I wonder if you can feel the vibration of a fart like through the seat. Like I usually might not smell you know, but I try to keep a little like a little bit of a tree.

I'm playing this so many people to play. I get it, yeah, because it's not me. It was not me. I always so naturally bring up shit and puke and like poop like when I'm eating. It's such a Midwestern thing. I don't know what's wrong with me. I always do it. It's a total problem. It doesn't don't know what's wrong with me. I always do it.

It's a total problem. It doesn't bother me, really. Me either. You have to try this. Oh, no, yeah. This is warm and delicious. I never really tried to deny. Um, you've actually been something I've been desperate

to meet for a while. And I know some of your friends and your classmates, obviously Margaret's a friend of mine. Um, Anthony works out next to me at my gym here in New York. I didn't get anything done on him. I didn't get any out of I get anything done on him. I know, that's what I mean. Like he's just like, I've been really dying to meet you.

And so this is so exciting for me. And then you were having me, of course, of course. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, I'll talk to Jonathan about how they discovered their love for hair and their love for Joe Biden. Okay, be right back. So it's no secret to anyone who knows me

that I love to be in the kitchen. I love that with Masterclass. I can be a student of some of the greatest chefs in the world, like Thomas Keller, Alice Waters, and Roy Choi. I don't know, watching these masters break down their technique and share their own stories of growth has made me so much more confident in the kitchen. This fall, learn from the best and become your best with masterclass. They have every topic or interest you can think of from leadership and negotiation to creativity

and my favorite cooking. And you can also take Masterclass wherever you go. Listen to it in audio mode in the app or put it on your TV. A Masterclass annual membership is $10 a month. And with that, you get access to all 180 instructors from a former FBI hostage negotiator, Chris Foss, to acclaim therapists and author as step-or-l. And right now, our listeners will get an additional 15% off an annual The next is a new showtime original limited series for EO. Fellow travelers from the writer of Philadelphia and the network that brought us homeland and the affair is part epic love story, part political thriller, and all in on one big secret. It's the story of the risky, volatile, and very steamy relationship between two political staffers who fall in love at the height of the lavender scare

That's the McCarthy era campaign against gay government employees that you may not have learned about in school Matt Boomer and Jonathan Bailey stars lovers whose fiery and forbidden affair intensifies through the anti-war protests of the 60s the Disco scene of the 70s and the AIDS crisis of the 80s, all despite the constant threat being exposed and losing everything, including each other. Don't miss the series premiere of Fellow Travelers streaming October 27th with the Paramount Plus with Showtime Plan. And we're back with more dinners on me.

Talk to me a little bit about, obviously you knew you wanted to do hair, you had the subsession with hair, you were good at it. Did you do your own hair? Did your mom's hair? Was it? It was her Barbie's hair. Barbie's hair. I fucked up her like original 1960s Barbie's so bad.

Amazing. She was so pissed, rightfully so. And I don't even a dull person, but just more of like a don't fuck up my collectibles per chance. They have siblings? And I'm the youngest of four. Okay.

You guys, I just made a weird mouth noise. I felt it. It was in the back of my throat. I felt it. I felt it. It was a disaster. It feel like. This is kind of like the most exciting

massacre's podcast, like eating right. And I'm like, you're voting. It's like, it is. right in a regular boat. It's like it is a obsessed. Yeah, it's pretty great. I love that you're just like I'm fucking... I just lean into it. You have to. It's giving me like my way, but not abusive, you know?

Like brings a nutter, you know? Absolutely. Yeah, you gotta do it my way. Yeah, well like non-problematically. Right, right. Oh yeah, the evolution. So always know I loved here. I'm usually passionate about it.

My family felt like, you know, you have to go to college. So, I went to U of A and to Sun for a semester. Didn't go well. I came back, went to her school. And I remember the night before my first day of her school, like thinking like, oh my god, what if I hate it? Yeah. Like, what if I don't like it?

Like, what if I only think that I was gonna like it and then I don't like it? And then the first day that you go, you get this like fierce ass like kit, like you got like your kit of all your stuff. And this, I remember, I'm actually getting the chills telling it. When I laid eyes on my kit and like unzipped, this like, it's like all of your shears, combs,

like all, like I went to an evata institute so it's like all of your evata products and we got all this makeup, all these makeup brushes. Like you got like a fucking like wax pot. You just like got all this shit. Like everything you're gonna need like the next year. And when I opened that kit I was like, oh my fuck, this is the best day of my fucking pipe.

I was like, when do we get to learn how to cut some fucking hair? I mean, I really loved it immediately. And as my gymnastics coach once told me, and this was very true for me a pair, she was like, I've never seen someone learn how to tumble, like, you know, flip, like with less natural ability. Like, she was like, you get over on like sheer willpower and determination.

And for me, it's like, if I'm passionate about something, I will fucking figure it out. But I'm never really that good at it, right? But I just didn't relentless in my pursuit of learning the thing. Yeah, so that's kind of what I did with her. And it was, I've just never fallen out of love with it. I love that you discovered that at such an early age

without kind of knowing that you're gonna be good at it. And then ended up excelling. I mean, I walked into a Sephora the other day and your products are there. I mean, to go from something that's like, I think this is something I might wanna do to your products and stores across the world. Especially Sephora, that was like my-

Huge. That one I still like, you just can't even believe sometimes. So, but this idea, like a lot of times I see an Instagram with hairdresser is like, you know, we don't do stuff for free, like all of my celebrity clients that I first started doing off were like a lot of times you do shit for free. Yeah.

You're like trying to get your name out there, so just don't be afraid of like, you gotta like put yourself out there and sometimes you do take a hit and then once you like have your, like you have something to stand on, like that's when you're like, it's this much an episode or it's,

yeah. This is what I charge for a haircut and but you gotta something to see. And on like that's when you're like, it's this much an episode or it's, yeah, this is what I charge for a haircut. And but you gotta like start somewhere. So I just, you can't be too afraid to like start. Well, sure, I mean, the same is being an actor. I mean, I started doing stage work that I'm a theater actor first before anything else. And like the amount of workshops and things that I did

for free or did I literally got paid in subway cards at one time, yeah, they gave me literally an envelope full of like Metro cards. At one time, they gave me literally an envelope full of metro cards. That's just what it was. I am grateful for the opportunity. I wasn't trying to pull a Kim Knoan warts to work anymore, but I do think sometimes you could be getting paid way more for. But I do it for the experience, learn something, and suddenly that's even a bigger reward.

But to the question of, was it a left turn to do comedy? Margaret, I'm doing her hair that, you know, from season two on and that whole time, she's like, girl, you are a comedian. I said, and you do my hair, like, you're doing sets that whole time and you don't even know it. Like, you just gotta like write it down

and beat it out and you could do it. And she gave me my first opportunity to get up. It like the Irvine M-Prove in like 2016. I did like three minutes, I almost passed out. I was like, I was not ready to get up. It like the Irvine Mproven like 2016. I did like three minutes, I almost passed out. I was like, I was not ready to do it. And then I did. I'm not feeling so stressful. And then I did like a couple of other

like little open mics here and there. I was like, well, I really like this. I skipped like the comedy club stage and went straight to like Mproven like Radio City. But I had been doing stuff like on open magnets and doing like little or things. And like, you know what salad is? The crunchiest salad of all time.

It's very crunchy. It's very garlicky too. It's delicious. So delicious. I can not even get enough. That's amazing. I always find, I mean, you know, the hair and makeup trailer on set was always the place

where like so much gossip happened. Did you collect a lot of like ridiculous stories? Yes. And I love it. I love, like, salon talks, salon life, salon gossip, with salon people. I just love so much. Right.

It's like one of my favorite things about JVN Hair, like just getting to be around like more salons, more hair people. I also just started like a new like thing for my getting curious pod, like which is pretty curious where I get to talk to like other hairdressers and other beauty founders. Because like being in the salon and talking shit is my favorite thing to do.

I mean, it is art and then it's science. And then all of a sudden, you're kind of quiet a lot, because you're trying to focus. I just love salon culture. And so that's kind of pretty curious, JVN hair, a lot of my YouTube. I'm always looking to how I can scratch that without being in the salon.

Not that I would love to be in this salon. It's just opportunity came a knock and I'm doing all these other things. Would you really like to go back into this salon? Yes, and it needs to be like, it's just like a yes and. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because when you can also write comedy and go tour

and go do other things, I think I've learned a lot about how far I can push myself. And the salon is like hardest fuck. Do you think it's so hard to see you've ever done? I think what I'm doing now is they're all hard in their own ways, but I mean, in the salon, I was like me and my assistant doing eight or 10 people's hair a day.

I was my own front desk, my own salon manager. It's really intense, hard labor. Like it's hard to work. And when you were starting off, I know that you were, you know, you were a different person. You had substance abuse problems. But you're also trying to start a career, which is incredibly difficult,

trying to make a name for yourself. Talk to me a little bit about just like that time of your life and sort of trying to discover who you are While you're also battling with things that are going on in you. Yeah, I think the universe Like kind of you like to not give me too much success when like my shit was still really unbalanced Oh interesting. So my step-dad died in 2012 That's like when I'm out at HIV and that was like really my basement and like all of my stuff was really like around there Luckily because I've been trying for a long time my stuff had been in program for like 28 years when he died

So I like grew up like coloring coloring books like outside of like you know meetings It's like obviously sobriety didn't like I'm more of a herm reduction queen Yeah, my thing is like as long as I you know anything that anything that makes me go up, she ruins my life. Yeah. But, you know, a little bit of alcohol and weave for me like, I really like, I don't know if anything was I've heard about the adult children of addicts. It's like ACA and you make like your own sobriety plan, but you're still like working the steps. So I did that program for like a year and I got so much healing around that. Like, learn so much about harm reduction and I was like, yes, so luckily though, I was still on that path, but that being said, I'm a very compulsive person.

So it reminds me a little bit of like whack-a-mole, like it always like kind of changes and ebbs and flows. Like it's just more about like, the shopping and the food really came in hard once you got the money, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like math honey, that's like so 2010. It's like really, it's really about like,

the impulsive jewelry decisions are gonna probably have me being in my mom's basement, you know. It's seem a little healthier though, right? Yeah, no, I do a whole set in my tour about like, you know, harm reduction and like, by jewels, not math. It's like, yeah, it's like a whole beat that I do. Different types of rocks.

Yeah, exactly. And these are so much better, because they come from the Earth's crust. There's another thing that this man said in rehab, which I loved. He's like the speaker. He's like not knowing why I was an addict, did not make me crazy, needing to know why I was an addict,

is what made me crazy. Interesting. Yeah, it's like it's kind of like letting go of your narrative, because like I think I was so attached to my narrative and my trauma for so long, but like really it was like learning to let it go. How do you stay on top of it now for yourself? Therapy, lots of therapy.

I just started therapy. Like, maybe a year ago. Good for you. Yeah, I know it's been really helpful for me. Yeah, it's true. First of all, I love how you're such an ambassador, I guess, in some ways, about being HIV positive. I think visibility is so wildly important.

Obviously we're living in an era where it's much more different to be HIV positive now than it was 10 years ago. Talk to me a little bit about your diagnosed with HIV in 2012. And then you didn't come out publicly to the media and press about it till 2019. Well, to be fair, I don't really knew who I was until like 2008. Sure, sure, sure.

I mean, but you have your, I'm sure you were telling your friends and your family. I don't mean talk to me in this part of why I did talk about it. Yeah. Because I was so open about it in my life. And so I, it wasn't like it was ever a secret in my universe. And so that was also partly why I was like, I want to talk about this on my own terms.

And just like wasn't sure if I was ready yet at the very beginning. And now that I was ever discouraged from doing so, but then after a few experiences, I was like, fuck this, I'm like ready to talk about it. And so then I did. Yeah. I really wrote about it in my book.

My first book over the top, but then I knew that's for that. Oh, that's what truly was on your own terms, in your own words. Yeah. In a long form with nuance. Yeah, that's great. But that's all was so interesting about it was,

is that like, so in over the top, it was on my terms, but then I didn't realize until like a month before over the top came out that like, thank you honey. I was like, wait, so I'm gonna, because obviously with the book coming out my PR was like, it's really important that we partner with like the right person to like tell this story. And so then the New York Times came along

and I was like, well, Jesus honey, like, that is giving journalism to excellence. But it never occurred to me that if I did that, they would break my story. Right. I wouldn't break it, they would break it. And I remember I was already way too far in and I think my publicist was just like,

girl, don't you know, that's how it works, but I didn't know and I totally didn't get it. And it was really, it felt for you to have. And it was really, it felt for you to have. And incredible stress. because I did the interview maybe like a month before, but like it was the Emmys and I knew like, they said like when the article will come out but between like a Friday and a Sunday's,

I didn't know like the minute and I was like, doing red carpet, some doing like, tour stuff for my like comedy tour at the time and I was like, I remember like, I was going on, I think I was in like Canada just for last festival but I was, I remember thinking like, is this news, is this article gonna come out like when I am on stage and like I'm gonna come off stage and like everyone's gonna like, is there gonna be some point when like everyone's gonna know and it ultimately happened. I remember we got back into New York at like six in the morning and then me and my best friend who's also my makeup artist like passed out on my couch like a my fifth story like walk up that I lived in in Chelsea at the time. And we passed out when I woke up like my phone.

I had like hundreds of missed calls. And like I was like, oh my god, it's out. You're gonna talk about it now. I'm like, oh, like I have like a pit in my stomach. And I, so it was cool. It was good. Like it was. Was there a sense of relief that it was out as well?

Or? Yeah, it really was like kind of like a Twilight Zone. Cause then I went on like the book tour and then I was like, And I had been asking, I'm sure that was the first question and it just like died tragically, which was like also insane. Like it was just like such a weird time

and I looked back on it down a girl. That was really, it was just like the weirdest like three months that and I really after the book came out I got it down a girl, that was really, it was just like the weirdest like three months that, and I really after the book came out, and this is what I read a lot about and over the top is that like, as ready as I thought I was, and my whole team, I remember my mom especially,

like I tried out for the talent show in sixth grade and I ended up making it with this incredibly stirring, interpretive, bad belly, ice figure skating, hybrid dance form that I made up to this like jewel song and I remember my mom sitting me down and being like, if you make this talent show, you're never gonna live this down. These kids are never gonna forgive you for this.

And similarly, when I wrote my book, she was like, honey, if you like, there's no taking this back. And like, you don't have to do this. Like, I know you wanna help. I know you wanna be like, but you don't have to do this. And a lot of people said that to me. And I was like, and like, you don't have to do this. Like, I know you want to help. I know you want to be like, but you don't have to do this. And a lot of people said that to me.

And I was like, I'm ready. Like, and HIV's taking my way to do this. And then afterwards, like, the vulnerability hangover was so intense. It was January 2020. So it came out in like September 2019. And when the tour was over and when like that comedy tour was over, I was like, I never wanted to leave my house again.

Like, I'm happy I did it now, but there was like a good like six months to a year there where I was really traumatized and also like in our community, like there was a few times where like, people really weaponized it against me, like making jokes on Twitter and just like memes, like, like is actually like some of the worst shit

people have ever said to me was like from in our community. Like way worse than Trump people. And that's been weird because I love our community and I'll fight for our community, like no matter what, like whenever, however, and I go to them. We also know how to hurt each other for months. Exactly. And it's like, so that was just like,

I had heard stuff before and I had seen stuff before, but once I was like open about my status and having people making jokes about like dying a full blown AIDS or just really like, that fucked me up and it fucked me up for a while. There's so many times where I used to get headlines where I'm like, I'm never doing that shit again. Like that felt bad.

Like I will keep my opinions to myself for a while. Right, right. Unless it's about free rights. Right, of course. I mean, yeah, absolutely. And do you feel, I mean, you sort of spoke to it a little bit, but do you feel like society's doing a little bit better or worse than, arguably, so much worse?

Yeah, agreed. Yeah, so stressed out. Yeah. I'm so stressed to fuck out about it. Yeah. Like, I think there are reasons to hope, but I'm also kind of shitting my pants like I can't tell. Well, I'm such an optimist, so I try to look for the silver lining everywhere,

but I'm in the same place where I just, I'm very discouraged and scared. It's giving full circle though, not to interrupt. And it's like, but it's only because I'm obsessed with you and I'm like, really into chatting, I like, it's so excited. And then I can't interrupt. It's not one of my better parts of my personality.

But we've been talking about this on our pod. And like, especially when it comes to gender affirming here when we're talking about Texas at the beginning. That's one of the things that I'm like the most concerned about because it's like first you have like the the core and then you have like the core of appeals and like the district core and then it's a Supreme Court and ways that cases get fast track to the Supreme Court is when the circuit courts, like the first circuit, the second circuit, the third, the fourth of it. When circuit courts the Circuit Court, it's like the first circuit, the second circuit, the third, the fourth of it.

When Circuit Court's rule opposing decisions, it gets fast-tracked. And so some of these gender-affirming care bands have been upheld and allowed to go into effect, but then other ones have been struck down in similar with drag performance. Yes. But the point is, is that there's gonna,

with all of these anti-trans and anti-clear bills, and because a lot of them are in conservative states that are in different circuit courts, we now have a Supreme Court that has a six-three majority that has shown that they don't have a fuck about separation of church and state, and they've ruled it time and time again, especially with three or three versus a Linus,

or Ellenus, or however you say it, but this court's bad, and I think that they're, you know, Biden is so exciting. Like for me, yeah, he gets me soaking fucking wet actually. I want him and Jill to run a fucking train on me actually. And our lack of enthusiasm for him is pissing me the fuck off. Is there other people who I would like loved to fantasize about? Yeah, I was like the biggest Elizabeth Warren queen I know. Like do I like Bernie's ideas like way fucking better?

You're goddamn right, I do. But here's the thing folks, this is where we fucking are. And I do think that there's a lot of people know offense that are in our circles in New York and in California that think, is it getting better? Is it getting worse? I can tell you, undoubtedly, in Texas, from being on the ground.

You're talking to a girl who goes to the Capitol in Texas, like I talk to parents of trans kids regularly that have left states. And what about the parents of trans kids who cannot afford to pick up and leave states? Because I talk to those parents too. And trans rights, 100%, but also the fact that we don't realize that trans rights are

inextricably tied to women's rights and abortion rights. 100%. This has happened together. And so just the amount of comfort that I see people taking and like, well, I live in California or I live in New York, I'm like, I can get an abortion if I need it. One of my friends is like, y'all,

that people's lives are on fucking fire, your fellow Americans, because it's like gerrymandering, like minority rule, now we're seeing the six Supreme Court justice in Wisconsin, who these Republicans are literally trying to impeach this woman because she said that these maps were gerrymandered. So have you heard about this? Yes, yes, yes.

So because she said that the maps have been rigged, they wanted to accuse herself from these two cases in the Wisconsin Supreme Court about their gerrymandered fucking into there. Well, if you don't do it, we're gonna impeach you. And because of Jerry Mandering, they have a super majority in the state house and the Senate and they have the power. They actually have the exact amount of senators

that they need to do that. Right. And so that's what I mean. It's like, it's a long-term game. We got a fucking comm and I hate to be one of those people that's like the media, but like, the more hits and impressions you make, the more you can sell ads for,

like I come from a broadcasting family, you're worth more when you get more traffic to your site. And negative headlines because of our survival bias, get more traffic than one that's like, he's doing great or someone's doing great. So if we could just like stop being agious and cunts to the Biden administration and more like trigger everyone's fear

from the fact that like there's a six fucking three real super majority in the Supreme Court right now, and these conservatives are coming out every fucking week being paid off by billionaires, who get money from dark fucking money, and they are busting unions, they busted your fucking female, the only members right to get a damn abortion,

and like 27 fucking states in this country, and if you don't think they are coming for you next honey, get it together. So if we could just make some more like media that's more like that as opposed to being like, no, but he's so old and like he doesn't give me a boner. President Biden, with all due respect, I will suck your dick. Right now, you have gotten these fucking, you have gotten this shit past. If Jill wants to watch, so fucking be it. He's probably gonna follow me on Instagram right now.

Once he hears this, because President Biden does in fact follow me on Instagram, so maybe we should add to all of this stuff, but I'll just say this. He has done a lot, and I do think he's our best chance at like keeping Trump out of office, and I'm like really concerned.

Yeah, no, 100% I'm the opposite. But I'll just say, it's not just obviously the federal elections, but wherever you live, it is so your state elections too. Absolutely. That's where so much of the carnage is. And if you're listening to this thing, like, well, fuck, I'm one of these fucking coastal elites,

bitch, I'm in LA, I'm in California, what am I gonna do? There's this thing called sister district. Do you know about sister district? I do, yeah. I'm so obsessed with sister district. I like, Lalla Wu, Gabby Goldstein, they found called sister district. I do know about sister district. I do. I'm so obsessed with sister district. I look, Lalla Wu, Gabby Goldstein, they found it sister district.

I'm like huge cheerleader of them, but you can donate your time, your money, your resources. They pair like swing districts and swing states with people who are like your LAs, your New York, like you're very progressive queens and progressive places where like they don't even need your voting works or so progressive, you know. They paired them with people who really need the support and the resources for phone

banking, resource sharing. And also like on off election years they really helped to facilitate, oh my God, mutual aid. So there's like this is a huge off election year in Virginia. Their entire state house in Sena's upper grab, Stianna Carrom, the first openly transgender state elected official ever in history is from Virginia. She has a really anti trans guy running against her. But yeah, so if you're just like, oh my god, I'm so stressed out,

let's go to JB on living in Texas. And this is so stressful. And what can I do to help a queen? Donate to sit at your district. Such great advice. Please. Thank you for mentioning that. I love them so much.

Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, I'll talk to Jonathan about an interesting airport moment they had, and learn more about their spiritual side. Okay, be right back. We interrupt this commercial break for an important news bulletin. Desjardin Insurance was spotted downtown helping everyone in its path. Unpredictable weather, fallen tree branches, wayward baseballs flying toward second-story windows.

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Are you sure you're sure? Get answers you can trust from Salesforce at AskMoreVai.com. And we're back with more dinners on me. Oh my god. So look. So look. Thank you. You're welcome. This is crazy.

We've ever seen our life. I'm going to eat a lobster in front of a microphone now. This is, we're at a whole other level now. So what? We're getting this. Because were you raised to be politically invested or was that something you had to learn yourself? It's also frustrated being in such a world space. It was like, so I just really like information.

But then the information that I get pisses me off, so then I can't stop talking about it. It's just why your podcast is so brilliant and you're so great at it because you're bringing all of these different topics, anything from like, why is it Titanic so interesting, to like, what's going on with this Supreme Court today, to sister district? I mean, it's just whatever you're curious about. Yeah.

I love that it's through the lens of very relatable, obviously hilarious, vessel. And I appreciate you doing that. It's cool. You talked a little bit about, personal, your childhood is so relatable to me because I was obsessed with gymnastics or ice skating or anything but my sister was.

So she had like all of them, like the Kim's and basketball posters in our world. Oh, that 1991 World Champion. Dominic Dawes. Oh my God, First American gymnast win in the medal and three consecutive Olympic games. 92 team bronze. 96 team gold and floor individual bronze. 2000 team bronze. But not rewarded until 2008 when they realized that two gymnasts from the Chinese team were under

age running. So our fourth place finished in the team competition got upgraded to bronze. Both fucking Dominique Dawes. Awesome Dawes, as they said, that's right. Fucking love her. I love it, but I was around so much of it. It sort of permeated my own life. And you were talking about my sister would like learn gymnastics routines and do them in the living room.

And of course, she couldn't do the full passes of the tumbling in the living room. And of course, like she couldn't do the full passes of the tumbling in the living room. So she would walk from one side of the room to the other, then do the- It's called marking and just- Marking and just- Yeah. And she probably could just see you now.

She probably could. She probably just didn't want to go full out to keep her injury free. What next? What next? We'll talk to me a little bit about going, so your work takes you to very interesting places that you might not normally go as just yourself

with your husband. Have there been interactions that you've had either on television or just privately that have been challenging for you and their private moments that have also meant something to you? Oh my God, so many. I mean, most often, like, people are really incredible.

Here's one really bad interaction I have. This is really fucking funny, you guys. You'll love this. So the other day, I met Newark and I'm with my assistant and we had had a long few days. And when I was in Longfew days, I mean, long fucking few days. I was on comedy tour and I was doing JVN hair stuff where I was doing classes with Sephora people and doing classes on how to style hair. Get off the plane, go perform stand up.

Then the next day get up at four in the morning, go to another city, go do three stops at these Sephora. I'm teaching all these, but it's like you gotta have a lot of fun. Another pain and other pain and other. Yeah, and it's like that. It's enough when you're just doing comedy alone, but I'll be doing all these different things

in one weekend, and it's just me and my assistant. We're just doing comedy alone, but like I'll be doing like, you know, all these different things in like one weekend. So, and it's like just me and my assistant. So we're like working hard to be on time to like get it done, you know, be perky or ride like, you know, bushy tailed, like, bride-eyed, we were flying back to Austin and this fucking woman comes up to me. And you know, like, you're just like, you're like, I don't want to fucking talk right now. And I was giving that energy.

Like I had my headphones on, but I wasn't less containing I was just talking to Ann and we were like laughing about like some on, but I wasn't listening to anything. I was just talking to Ann and we were laughing about like some things, that's why he's just kidding. And we're chatting, but I was giving like, oh my God, energy. And then this lady comes up and she's like, and I want to be rude to like, took my headphones

and I was like, hi, and she was like, I just had to tell you that the Lord put it on my heart. This morning I was gonna run into a celebrity at the airport. He said, Lauren, you're gonna see a celebrity at the airport today. And I just don't know if you've ever met the good lord, but if I could just pray over you to show the good lord, I would love to pray with you. And I was like Lauren, I'm not gonna pray with you today.

But if you'd like to take a selfie, I'd be happy to take a selfie with you. And she was like, uh, then we took this selfie. And I was like, nice to meet you. And she left. But oh, then we took this selfie. And I was like, nice to meet you. And she left. But then her husband came back. And he was like, you know, she just really, the love of Christ is deep.

And I was like, honey, the love of Christ is in me too. I do not need to pray with you today, okay? I'm so infugal for Christ to make your fucking head spin. Like, I love Jesus, your preaching of the fucking choir. I would, Jesus could run a train on me with all 12 fucking saints. Right now, John Luke Paul, all of the money, love them. I'm the president of the fucking fan club. In fact, I look just like a 16th century representation of a white Jesus. So I fucking love them. I am a very spiritual

person. I actually really do think Jesus is pretty cool. I'm not even sure if I'm not Christian. I don't know. Maybe I am. I don't know. I don't know. I was gonna ask you religious. I'm not sure I mean I definitely spiritual I mean I went to Christian sports camp every summer I've accepted Jesus and my heart lots of time so like on judgment day like if it goes down y'all are fucked I'm totally going to heaven because like I'm British. I'll her forget my like forgive my sins or whatever like So it's right It's dessert. It's dessert next, one's dessert. Yeah, dessert?

Are you ready for dessert? I mean, I just wanted to flag that we, this is so spicy. I just do want dessert at some point. No, it's not too spicy, it's so spicy though. I love it. It's great. Mmm.

Oh my God, it's so huge. This is massive. They did warn me, they said that lobster is very big. I definitely can relate to, and especially now since I have a family, trying to keep my life private, but also be respectful of fans who have given me a career that I love so much. I mean, if these people weren't watching my show, I would not be able to do the things I was doing.

I mean, it definitely is a tricky thing that I feel like obviously people who are in the public eye have to go through. But to be clear, try to come pray your hands at Jesus Silver. I need saving because you think I'm a big old trans center who's got HIV and is a big old destitute not mayor. Because that was the energy they were giving me

and I was like, I don't need your saving. I know everything you're gonna say. And I don't need you to lay hands and pray for Jesus' salvation. 99.99% of everyone else is incredible. And I take selfies 50 million times a day. And I don't complain about it. And I love the people.

And it's like, it is a tricky balance. But I just didn't mean to sound like an out of touch nightmare. I do think it's also hard sometimes when some will come over and tell me that they're out of the show and kind of want something for me. And like I have to exit out of a moment that is difficult and painful to give this person a good experience for me so that when they leave, they don't think how else. Let's go ahead and say about that just really quick. Then that New York Times article, so I't think how. That's gonna say about that just really quick.

Then that New York Times article, so I was in the middle of telling this reporter about like contracting HIV, it's Empire Diner, just like right out at Chelsea, where I do this interview with him. And these two girls come up and they're like, we love you so much. Can we please have a selfie, and I'm like,

I'm like, I get tear trickling down my eye. I'm like literally like talking, telling someone about my HIV experience like outside of my like, you know, world for the first time. And he's like, with the New York Times and like, Jesus Christ. So I said to them, I was like, Queens, I was like, I'm so sorry. This is like a really weird conversation.

I probably won't do a selfie at the moment, but I adore both of you like so much. And I'm like, no, I must stay. And then he, but I really mentioned, I was like, trying to be sweet. And then he put that, I must stay. And then he, but I really mentioned, I was like trying to be sweet. And then he put that in the fucking article. And then all of these people were like, can't to me afterwards and were like,

oh, like you don't really like selfies. Like so then a lot of people afterwards would talk to me about how like, I don't really like selfies, but really the point of the article so I was living with HIV. And they got to the part of me like, and that is an interesting press thing of like,

anytime a celebrity ever says, the picture thing, I still remember Justin Bieber headlines from 10 years ago, if he said I don't want to take pictures. And I even remember then thinking, ew, what a high-end mighty thing of him to say. But it is really interesting being on those sides of it, but that is one of those click-beating things, and it's a conversation starter,

so it can be an article, it can be a thing as you like weren't as nice as you needed to be in Thank you We got a set and cheese cake That's a cheesecake It's like a is it cake episode? Oh my god, it is Do you mind if I do die? So you did that one wait. I want to ask you about your children's book. But yeah, peanut.

They're only bandin' like seven counties. And I want to talk about that. So peanut goes for gold is about a guinea pig. It's for the gold. I know, but yeah, peanut goes for the gold. There's like a little non-binary rhythmic gymnast, guinea pig. And this book was banned.

And... Well, it voted to be on a state-trunch Florida, but I think it didn't make it. Well, consider the source. Yeah, but did I think I mean it has been caught up in a few book bands since actually right right right. I was part of the show on Broadway called the 25th annual Putnam County spelling bee and I was in the original cast and I helped develop the show and I play a I was in the original cast and I helped develop the show. And I played an autistic kid, like a 12-year-old in this spelling bee. And then I also played the gay dad of one

of the other contestants, I doubled roles. And I found out, I don't know, like six months ago, there was a production of this musical that was being done in high school. And the PTA decided to call off the production because it had mature themes. And it could be a little blue in places. You know, it's definitely some adult humor in there, but the authors, they offered a children's version of the show so that middle school and high school could do it without worrying

about, like there was a song about this kid singing about his, his unfortunate direction that they made him mess up, spelling me. And so there's other versions of the show that are available. And so it came very clear to us very early on that the reason that they didn't want to do the show was because of the gay dads. And long story short, they ended up being able to,

I think the thing got national exposure actually. And I think that the school board ended up having a little bit of pressure and they went forward with the show. But the fact that it took so much to allow this very innocent piece of art to be presented in a high school, really, I was like, we can't start doing this. Like this can't be the way we handle things that are controversial, that are challenging, or that represent things that we don't necessarily relate to. I found it very disturbing.

And so like, you know, when I read that, you know, this, even if it was banded one library, your book, I found it really dangerous. I mean, don't talk about gender. If they, Pinnat uses they, them pronouns, but we never talk about it. I just gave them they, them, probably never talk about it. Right, gave them they then pronoun, we never talk about it.

Right, right, right. They have great clothes. I've been saying really embarrassing and truthful. And okay, so you're just talking about this like really important thing. Like that whole time. Yeah. About this like play, being banned,

like you know, banning, we're fucking being books are being plays out in these fucking streets. Yeah. All I could think about was how good that cheesecake was the whole time. And also between my martini and the cheesecake, like, is that why all these like white women don't care about trans rights and gay rights and stuff? Cause like, we're just like out here eating cheesecake and bringing them our tiniest and

you're just like, we're like, maybe. Cause like literally it wasn't hitting me with the same severity, like after one martini and like that cheesecake, I was like, could it be that bad? Like, maybe that's all we need. like after one more teeny and like that cheesecake I was like could it be that bad like Maybe that's all we make a cheese cake. You'll be fine like go open a gay only school and do your fucking play there Like like I'm like who am I like I would share like I think that's what it is I think and you know what it is too. I learned from this neuroscientist She's like a brain scientist if we don't get the right sleep We can't learn new stuff in alcohol affects your sleep. So I probably just crazy. Yeah. At this point, I'm probably just, I don't even know.

I'm so concerned. We're all like, we're just, we're not getting the right sleep. Wait, I totally lost my trip. I thought I have no idea where to go now. Well, do we have the most fun of all time? Of course we did. I knew this would be a ball.

I mean, I had the most fun all time. Next time I see you, I can't wait to tackle you and just give you so many kisses. I'm just, I want to get tackled by just the real that. The real that. Yeah. I'm so thrilled... I want to get tackled by just the real that. The real that. Yeah. I'm so thrilled that we know each other now. Me too.

I love you so much when I fall. Now that I've known you, I'm never. I just... I adore you. I love you too. Ugh. Next time on Dinner's On Me, Queen of Broadway! Hey!

Hey! A Dina Menzel. Well, I just cracked myself up, didn't I? Well, get into her iconic Broadway roles and so, so much more. I'm really excited about this one. And if you don't wanna wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now

by subscribing to Dinner's On Me Plus. As a subscriber, you not only get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen to them completely ad-free. Just click Tri-Free at the top of the Dinner's On Me Show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinner's On Me is a production of Neon Hum Media, Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by Yours Truly. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay.

Chloe Chobal is our associate producer, Sam Bear, engineered this episode. Hansdale Shee composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Alexis Martinez and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.