Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - KIERNAN SHIPKA — on growing up on “Mad Men” set and her self-help book obsession

Episode Date: November 12, 2024

"Sweethearts” star Kiernan Shipka joins the show. Over a salmon bowl, Shipka tells us how she sees her character on “Mad Men” differently now, her “Girls” rewatch and why she loves a self-help book (plus, recs!).  This episode was recorded at Forage in Silver Lake, CA. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Shop all of Justin's exceptional wines at justinwine.com and be sure to use promo code JESSI20 to receive 20% off your order today. That's JESSI20 for 20% off. Hi, it's Jessi. for 20% off. Hi, it's Jesse. Today on the show, you know her as Sally Draper on Mad Men and Sabrina Spellman from the Netflix series,

Chilling Adventures of Sabrina. But look out for her upcoming films, Sweethearts and Red One. It's Kiernan Shipka. We came up together. Yeah, basically. Yeah, we really did actually. Yeah, you were doing your first Gerber campaign when I was getting my first paid job.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. We were. This is Dinners on Me, and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. I guess it's kind of weird to say that Karen and Shipka and I have been friends since she was eight, but I don't know. I guess that's true. Listen, I mean, now that I'm a dad and my son is four, my friend's circle age range has definitely gotten wider.

There are some pretty cool four and five-year-olds out there, I'm just saying. Anyway, yes, Kiernan Shipka and I first met when she was at the height of the success of the brilliant TV series Mad Men while I was navigating the early success of Modern Family. Now, our experiences could not have been more different. I mean, obviously, she was experiencing all this as an adolescent in a very adult drama, while I was experiencing it as an adult in a comedy who just loves personal drama.

I have such deep respect for Kiernan Shipka for so many reasons. Well, one, because I was an absolute fanatic for the show Mad Men. I absolutely love it. I would watch it over and over and over again. But also because I have watched her gracefully navigate through this very complicated industry

and become a very respected actor in her own right. Something that that's not easy to do when you start working as a literal infant. I mean, gosh, the things I could have accomplished if my parents had faith in me to be a Gerber baby. I don't know. I just feel like I would be in such a different place now.

Oh, and something else that should be said about Kiernan. She is incredibly responsible and very, very punctual. Kiernan was the first to arrive. I was early. I was ahead of schedule and sort of wandering around Forage, thinking what do I do? Where do I go?

I took Kiernan to Forage, a cozy spot in Silver Lake, Los Angeles that feels more like a tree house than a restaurant. You follow a staircase up to a canopy-covered patio. Walking into the restaurant, you feel like you're walking into someone's home with a cozy brick fireplace that's going in the winter. Oh, by the way, winter in Los Angeles is when it drops below 75 degrees. Chef and owner Jason Kim is committed to sourcing from local farms and markets.

And something I appreciate about Forage is that it makes me excited to eat healthy. From their salmon billet tacos to roast chicken to yellow coconut curry, everything is delicious and nourishing. Plus, I'm not gonna lie, Forage is, well, it's kind of hip. So I thought, why not bring Kiernan to this Silver Lake hotspot?

Okay, let's get to the conversation. So I just watched Sweethearts last night. Did you? Oh, cute. Oh my God, you got a screener? I got a screener. What do you think? I loved it. Really? Yay.

Oh my God, it's so exciting. I mean, it's so interesting seeing you, because we, I wouldn't say we became friends when you were doing Mad Men, but like we were- We were friendly. I mean, we were on the same circuit. Modern Family Mad Men, I feel like, had very parallel awards season, promo, sort of run arounds.

I feel like there was years when you won best drama and we won best comedy. Yeah, yeah, we were sort of simpatico. Overlaps, right. But doesn't it seem like, I don't know how you feel with that show. I mean, I imagine specifically because you were so young when it started.

I mean, doesn't it sometimes feel like it was just like another lifetime ago? Yes and no. I mean, I don't know how you feel, but I feel like it both feels like forever ago and also yesterday. But I mean, people still come up to me and say how much they love the show, and I know it's the same for you. I mean, there's something about being on TV for that long. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Do you have recollection of like the early years on it? Yeah. Because you were six? I was six when I started and I remember everything. Do you? I don't know if it was, I don't know if it was because my brain and body just decided to remember like audition, first day, whole thing.

And I'm glad for that. I mean, I'm sure there's some days that are a blip, but that's kind of everything. But yeah, no, I like the core. I remember getting it. I remember where I, like I was in the Jimmy Kimmel parking lot when I got the call. Why were you in the Jimmy Kimmel parking lot?

Because I used to do skits for Jimmy Kimmel. I did hear about this, yeah. I used to do skits for Kimmel, like little, like they would put the earpiece in my ear and I would go around and like prank Uncle Frank and do the whole thing. And I remember, I remember getting it and freaking out. My God, I love that you were six, like on a job hearing about another job.

Yeah. That's like crazy. I was a Little Miss worker. That's incredible. Do you remember. So funny. I had Aubrey Anderson-Emmons who played my daughter. Yes, and I actually just hung out with her as an adult. It was Amanda Gorman's birthday.

Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. And she had. Oh my God. All of us. I'm obsessed with her. Obsessed, we love her, and we all went to Disney. And I didn't know anyone, I didn't really know anyone.

Wait, wait, wait, wait. She invited me to Disney. You went to Disney with Amanda Gorman? Yes. This is so cool. I mean, dreams do. You went to Disney with Amanda Gorman? Yes. This is so cool. I mean, dreams do come true, honestly. When you wish upon a star. Truly.

You might end up at Disney with Amanda Gorman. And it was wonderful. But I felt very like, oh, I don't know any of her friends. This, you know, let's see how this is. And Aubrey was there. Oh, that's incredible. They're close, or they're friends somehow. And we had a little date together.

I had no idea, way to bury the lead Aubrey. She's grown up now, it's insane. Totally grown up, I mean, you know. Wild. And I think about you and John in January, I was like, I really relate to how they must feel about you. Like, you know, so protective and so proud of you as well. But it's funny, there was like that moment

where January and I get to have dinner and like drink together. Right, you know, so protective and so proud of you as well. But it's funny, there's like that moment where Jan and I get to have dinner and like drink together. Right, I know. The first couple times are really odd or funny. Sure. Yeah, I felt the same way about when I was with Aubrey. Like, I took her, she did an episode of the podcast. She was like ordering like a steak, and I was like, I just like remember her

like eating grilled cheese and like chicken tenders. Chicken tenders, please, yes, yes, yes. But she has very specific memories about her audition too. I think it was just like, it was such a big moment. Her mind screenshot that for her. Cause she came in probably what, second? She came in like the third season. So that was the other thing is her mom did show her like,

you know, what the show was. And I don't think when you started, you started kind of, you weren't on the pilot. You started pretty much at the show was. And I don't think when you started, you started kind of, you weren't on the pilot, you started pretty much at the beginning though. I was on episode two. Pilot was shot in New York like a year before. So the back of Sally is seen and it's not me.

Not me doing that back acting. Not someone else, can't take credit. Right. And you know, to come out of Mad Men at what age? 14? Yeah, I was 14 when we wrapped and 15 when it came out. Right, right, right. Last season. Obviously, you're doing so well and I want to talk about this bonkers year you're having.

Thank you. Such incredible things. Thanks, honey. Do you remember what it felt like to be so young, but also, because I remember as an adult I felt like a little, I don't know, I felt like I was coming out of an isolation chamber or something or like a bunker and I was like blinking in the sunlight. It's like, okay, what is this new landscape I'm walking into?

But what did the industry feel like after leaving such a hit show for you? Yeah. I mean, it's really interesting because I was talking to someone about this earlier. I don't have a reference point for what it's like to not be in the industry or kind of some level of public figure. I was six when I started Mad Men. It sort of worked out so that I was doing Mad Men and then the six months that we weren't filming, I was mostly just doing normal kid stuff.

Like I wasn't really like, I need to keep, so I think coming out of it, I was still so young that it was a little bit of finding my footing and it was a weird time. Like I think it mentally, emotionally, when I look back and I kind of pinpoint what I struggled with and I like search for the why, it was because I kind of lost this anchor in my life

and because I wasn't in school anywhere. I mean, I already graduated high school through Laurel Springs independent study. I graduated early, I already graduated high school through Laurel Springs, independent study. I graduated early. I just did the whole thing. I was sort of like a little bit untethered and wandering. Did you ever go to school with other kids or were you strictly on set?

I was always on set. I stopped at first grade. Yeah, yeah, so I was young. That's always fascinates me too. I know. I didn't know how to open a locker. I was filming a high school film after math and I was like 15, they were like,

okay, you're just gonna walk down the hall and then open the locker. And I was like, okay, great. And I walked out and then I get to the locker and I'm like, oh no, oh no, I never got to this. That's incredible. This is part of my skill set yet guys. Someone teach me. I know how to ride a horse, I can do karate, I can open a locker.

Yes, yeah yeah yeah. They're on the resume. Yeah yeah yeah. When headshot resume. Yeah yeah yeah. That's really funny actually. Um, and I know, hi! Hello! Good, how are you? So good. Oh my glasses back. I'm Jason, I'm the owner and chef of Forage. Jason! Jason!

Very nice to meet you guys. I'm about to be a big fan. Oh, thank you. I've never been here before. Oh, we're excited to have you here. I've been, but it's been a while. Have you guys try all our food. Well, what are some of your favorites?

Yeah, what do you like? So, definitely our signature dish is probably our salmon bowl. I was eyeing that. That looks good. I mean, we're kind of known for our seasonal sides, vegetable forward kind of menu. Awesome.

What are you feeling, Jesse? I'm gonna do the Korean fried chicken bowl, I think. Nice. And I'm gonna do the salmon bowl. So one salmon bowl, one Korean fried chicken bowl. Thank you. I would love a coffee, please. One coffee as well?

Ooh, it says cream top cold brew. Talk to as well? Oh, it says cream top cold brew. What's, talk to me about the cream top. The cream top cold brew. So we whip some cream with a little bit of sugar but we don't whip it all the way so it's like really soft. You might do that. I gotta do it too. It sounds so good.

So we got two cream top cold brews, one salmon bowl and one Korean fried chicken. Yeah. All right. I think that's it. All right guys, we'll have put your order and we'll bring out your food once it's ready. Thank. All right. I think that's it. All right guys, we'll have put your order in, and we'll bring out your food once it's ready. Thank you so much.

Thank you, thank you. Wow, exciting. Major. Major. We were talking about something deep. Wait, no, I was gonna say, and it makes so much sense, is that you weren't really kind of allowed, first of all, you weren't allowed to watch the show.

Yeah. And rightfully so, I mean, it was a very adult show. But also, what I found so interesting, there were moments where they would get reaction shots from you, but you wouldn't necessarily know what you were reacting to. Yeah, I was reacting to like John playing Words with Friends on his phone as an eyeline.

That's so incredible. And not the real deal. And like something that would actually be happening is you like walking in on him having an affair or something. Yeah. Yeah. Or someone else having an affair. I was walking in a lot.

I really opened the wrong doors. I guess I was like, yeah you did. Sally was always opening the wrong doors. Sally. I think I remember Matt saying, he was like, Sally saw everything but Kierna didn't see much. Yeah. I mean, do you remember what it felt like to be in scenes

that you didn't necessarily have context for? Yeah, I mean, I think I had, well, I definitely had context, but I didn't, they were very, they were so protective over me and my kind of innocence and not exposing me to stuff that was sensitive or more adult. And I always knew what I was reacting to.

I always knew what I was walking in on. You just had to see it. But I just didn't have to see it over and over again because I think that felt like, well, she doesn't need to really see that. And I think at a certain point I was like, guys, I know what this is. I'm good, I'm fine.

But I really admire and respect the way that they handled it. Yeah, it's quite remarkable. But I do think in my head, I was probably like, pfft, I'm mature, I know what's going on here. Like, it's fine, guys. When was the first time you watched a full episode of the show? Oh my gosh, probably at, oh my god,

we have Cream Top coming in that looks so good. Cream Tops. Cream tops. Cream tops. Probably at some premieres, like some premieres I would go to and then I would sit in for the episode and I remember that was always really exciting. And then I did a re-watch. Or a watch.

Now this is what I heard, for your 16th birthday, is this right? Yeah, I did a go back but then pandemic, when everyone was watching it. It's like, I'll join in on the fun. And you were seeing episodes that you'd never seen before? I think so, yeah. I mean, I really like, I did the full-

And you were an adult at this point. Top to bottom, I was an adult. I was almost 21. Were there any like revelations or like, I don't know. For me, it would be weird watching something that I did, not knowing all the information. I just, I always, I'm too much of a control freak. So interesting because I am too.

Especially as I get older, I love to prep everything so much and really get into the psychology of who I'm playing. And like, and there's so many different like, routes I could take with this. But what I thought was really wild was that I was watching her go through stuff that at the time I was feeling in a really natural way, but now as sort of an adult I can psychoanalyze and go,

oh no, she was grieving there and acting out. And at the time I think I understood her as much as she understood herself. And as I get older I think I understood her as much as she understood herself. And as I got older, I kind of understand her the way that I hope she would understand herself one day with therapy. And there was something really wild about seeing that because it was like, it wasn't that I didn't know

what was going on, but I didn't know what was going on the way that we don't know what's going on with us until later too. And it was kind of mind blowing in a way. going on, but I didn't know what was going on the way that we don't know what's going on with us until later too. That's interesting. It was kind of mind blowing in a way. I mean she really went through it. She did. I know.

She did. And obviously, it's just a sign that they did a great job casting and they were so trusted. And it's the being trusted is the big thing because if you feel that level of trust, that imprints forever. Yeah. Yeah. And in the opposite direction too. Because if you feel that level of trust, that imprints forever. Yeah, yeah. And in the opposite direction too, so. Now for a quick break, but don't go away.

When we come back, Kieran tells me about being a young celebrity in the Dumois era, her addiction to self-help books, and when she knew Nico Haragra was the right choice for her rom-com counterpart. Okay, be right back. When you're hiring, it feels amazing to finally close out a job search.

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365 day returns. That's a year people. Quince.com slash JTF. And we're back with more Dinners on Me. You were raised in Chicago. Yeah, yeah. When did you move to LA? I moved to LA when I was six. Wow, so. Yeah. Moved to LA when you were six.

Right before Mad Men. Okay, so that was like, you got here and you kind of had a big opportunity right away. Yeah, pilot season happened. I booked a show, I booked a pilot that was honestly very modern family-esque. Oh really? Like it was called Angriest Man in Suburbia. Okay. It was with Mitch Frouse and yeah, everyone was like, oh, this is gonna be absolutely great. That's what they always say. Got the pilot. That's what they always say, Jesse. Listen to that, it's a jaded. I know, ah, I see through that now.

You do. But yeah, no, it was like waiting, is it gonna get picked up, is it not? And it didn't, but during that little waiting period, snuck in a little audition for Mad Men, and then that was it. Wow. That was like, okay, I guess we're kind of moving here.

Also, I'm kind of curious, just like with, when did you get social media? Did you do that? Did that happen in Mad Men or no? So, no. Okay. Instagram, I think Instagram was maybe 2012 or 2013. Yeah, I think you're right.

And I got it right away, but I got it on a personal level. Like literally my only follower was my best friend who lived across the street from me, and we would post every photo that we took pretty much with like CPF filter on this one. I was 13. And it was just fun.

Like there was no level of, oh I'm thinking about this. And then I remember I was, and by the time I was maybe 15, it was social media and I wanted to be cool on it. And I remember- You brand yourself as they say and I wanted to be cool on it. And I remember. You brand yourself as they say. I wanted to be cool on it, but it's funny, Jesse, because I didn't even want to be cool for the world.

I wanted to be cool for the girls who went to high school in LA. And then I think it transitioned into, oh, now this is, you know, now I'm on social media and that's a whole other conversation that we can have. But in the beginning, I remember that shift. Thank you so much. Hello.

That's so beautiful. That's mine. Thank you. It looks gorgeous and that looks so good too. Oh my gosh. Thank you. That's incredible. It looks so good.

Thank you. I remember that transition of like, oh this is fun, to oh I'm thinking about how I look on this thing. Right. You know? I'm asking because I also find it interesting, at this moment when you were sort of becoming available

for the next chapter of your life, after this very successful show, there was sort of this surge of attention being paid to social media. How has that been like for you? Because you definitely are someone who people pay attention to. Yeah, it's interesting.

I think that I kind of, I've been doing this for such a long time that there's a pretty good separation. So the honest answer is I think I have a pretty healthy relationship with it, where I can look at something and go like, oh, that's funny or that's silly or that's, you know, this or that. But then I sort of get on with my day. That's good. It doesn't feel invasive.

If I probably thought about it long and hard, I could get, you know, to a place where I'm like, hey, like that's my, you know, that's my personal life. But I don't know. I think I've like created a bit of a steely sort of protective barrier between myself and like the internet. What was it like for you when Sabrina happened and it was such like a shift from you going from an ensemble piece to a show where you are the title character.

And that was four years. That's a long amount of time. I always think that's like literally high school. All of high school. I went to Netflix University instead of college. Visited a few and then decided on Netflix. Early application. I mean it seems like you were poised to take that responsibility on

and you had such great role models on previous jobs. Yeah, Ham was a great example honestly. I mean he's such a good number one. Absolutely, but it's on previous jobs. Yeah, Ham was a great example, honestly. I mean, he's such a good number one. Absolutely. But it's different in practice. Sure. Yes. Like, what was that transition like for you? Honestly, I was 18 when it started, and I really didn't think about it that much.

Like, I think, and now I think back, and I was like, I think if I thought hard enough about the pressure, I probably would have lost it. It primed me for, it was 18 when I started, 20 when it ended, and it really primed me for what I've done in my adult life. I got very used to long hours and responsibility,

and knowing a lot of lines, and it was such a fun set too, so that always helps. There's days and it was such a fun set too, so that always helps. And you know, there's days where it was difficult, but I look back on it and it was really fun and I felt like I was in some kind of flow where I wasn't really thinking about it too much because I got used to it.

Also to go from a show where you were a child amongst so many adults to then be a part of a show where you are around more people your age. That must have been quite a change. It was crazy, I felt like the grandma. Yeah. They were all going out on weekends. I was staying in because I was so tired.

I had Keri Russell on the show and she was part of the Mickey Mouse Club. And she talks a lot about how she kind of escaped like that weird childhood transition. Cause I'm sure you've seen these great actors who have had really rough goes through their teen years. And do you ever like step back and sort of think about how it could have gone differently or?

You just also seem like a person who has their head screwed on really tight and it would be hard to... Yeah. It would be hard to unscrew. It would be hard to unscrew. In fact, I'm trying all the time. I think there's no real ceiling. I'm such a kind of control-y, perfectionistic...

That's just sort of my nature. It's just how I'm built. So I think I sort of went in the opposite direction where I think that was put in my head so much of like, oh, this could go wrong. Like, make sure that you have your head on your shoulders. And I was like, let me screw it on so tight that there's no room for anything.

Solder it, solder it. So that happened. And I think I definitely had my set of issues and stuff that I dealt with in the mental health space, but it was less acting out and it was more acting in. Like I think I sort of isolated myself and all the stuff that I was dealing with was really internal and it wasn't really like

out in the world, let me go, you know. How do you take care of yourself in those moments when you're feeling? It's been a journey, I mean, love a book. Like I feel like if I don't have a self-help book in my hand, I just lose it. I love that. That's, it's fun.

Honestly, if you have any like good titles that you're like, oh, read this one, please pass them along. I'm reading this book called Way of Integrity Right Now, which is by Martha Beck. And it's very good. And it's about not lying. And it's about, and she sort of talks about how we all tell these little micro little lies

to please other people and just get by and how it slowly kind of eats away at us. But even like a how are you and you say good to sort of get on with your day, but what if you're not good. It's like those kind of tiny little things. Yeah. I used to do this joke literally on the carpet

at the Emmy Awards. Oh my God. Because it's such a circus. There's so many people to see and everyone's just looking. People are talking to you, but they're not really looking at you. They're looking over your shoulder.

I'm totally a victim of it as well. But I started doing this thing where people would be like, how are you? And I'd be like, I'm not good. Do you have a second? I'm like. Juliana. Yes.

Do you have a second? And literally this is a testament to the people I surround myself with though. Or I was like, yes, yes, come on. I was like, I'm just here. Mario Lopez is like, we can find a yes, yes, come on, let's go, come on, I was like, I'm just here. I'm just like, bye, bye, bye. We can find a corner, we can talk about this really quickly.

Oh my God, that's so funny. Yeah, but anyway, I, speaking of the research that I just removed from the table so you didn't have to stare at my name. But you have had a bonkers year. It's been kind of, it's been kind of nuts. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy.

It is, it feels wild. It feels wild because it's been, it was a couple years of, again, like doing all the things, working. And then for me, I guess I never get into my head that it's going to come out. Literally like you have like four things happening like in succession and they all,

well, what's so striking to me is how different they all are. Which is, you know, again, kudos, because like I think it's so hard when you do something on television, being both Sabrina and Madeline now I'm talking about. But you know, it is hard to break free of those things. So to have so many things happening right now that are so different than one another.

I mean, I know right now you're talking a lot about Sweethearts, which I got to watch last night. And it's so great. It's, you know, a rom-com, which I'm a big fan of the rom-com. We love a rom-com. We love a rom-com. So fun.

Good watch, watch it with the fam. Absolutely, yeah. I love that it references When Harry Met Sally a lot, which is probably the king of all rom-coms. Truly. And it's also a comedy that takes some real big swings. There's some things that happen to you that I'm like, oh, well they went there.

It's a bit super bad. It's like super bad. A little bit, yeah. It makes me a little bit sad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What did you think when you read the script? Was it something that was offered to you or did you pursue it?

Yeah, it was an offer. I was deeply excited about it right away. I'd been wanting to do comedy. I love comedy. I mean, I grew up doing Second City City. I grew up doing the Teen Troop on weekends, Second City from 13 to 18, until I aged out. Full on improv shows. But we were performing every single weekend. I was like, I love improv. I love comedy so

much and I just never really fell into it in my professional life. So I think that was part of the pull for Sweethearts. And then it just turned out to be such a bonkers cast, so fun, so just delightful. And I think there's just something to be said about having a really fun time on something. And that was that. And it was great. It was really fun.

Did you have an opportunity to improv in the movie? Yeah, I think we did. There's a decent amount of, oh, you can be free here. I mean, I think for me, Mad Men was word for word. Like if you said they're and it's supposed to be they are, someone's coming up to you and going, that's not what it was. We have to get it word for word. And I think even just like a level of freedom that is not deeply locked in was kind of what Sweetheart was and that was really fun. Tell me the name of your co-star again.

Oh, Nico Haraga. He's so great. Isn't he so cute? He's so, you guys have incredible chemistry together. Thank you, we did a chemistry read. Did you, okay. Yeah, anytime that I have been on the side of the chemistry read where I already have booked the part, I think I've known pretty

instantly when the person came in that it was going to be them. Yeah. And that's how it felt with Nico. You guys are great together. I love the movie. And then another one that, you know, people are so excited about that. You probably don't have a lot to say about it just yet, but I'm so excited. Just know that I'm so excited. Oh, yeah. Yeah't have a lot to say about it just yet, but I'm so excited. Just know that I'm so excited. The last Showgirl. Yeah, it's gonna be fun. I've been hearing incredible things.

We're kind of in Q&A season right now. And it's been really, like the response has been amazing. With Jamie Lee Curtis and- Yes, JLC, Pamela Anderson. Brenda Song, Billie Lohr, Dave Bautista, honorary Showgirl. Right? Yeah. Well, first of all, did you watch the honorary showgirl. Right? Yeah.

Well, first of all, did you watch the documentary about Pamela Anderson? No, I kind of, once I learned that I was doing it, I sort of weighed my options and was like, she's such an icon, she's such a sort of front-facing figure that we all have a relationship to and we all know, I'm just gonna strip it all away. And it was like, working with her on a daily basis, I kind of forgot that it was Pant Mandarin.

Yeah. Just in our own little 18-day shoot world. Right. Where it was quick and fast and dirty, and there was really, I don't know, it was sort of a conscious, oh, do I, do I not? And I went with with I do not. I thought that was perfectly smart, yeah.

I mean it's a really fascinating documentary and she's an incredibly resilient and inspiring person. I mean, my God. And I'm so excited to see, you know, I mean, this whole cast, you included, like in these wildly different roles. I know her so much from Baywatch, which is how I grew up with her,

but what was it like seeing her in such a different part? I mean, it's amazing. I mean, she'll joke, she's like, this is the first good script that I've ever read in my entire life, and it was a journey to actually get the script to her and get her to say yes, and it was a whole thing. But it's amazing because when we were working together,

we were working very closely every single day, and I was seeing all the, I mean, it's a really, the demands of the role and these sort of daily challenges and things that she had to face just playing something so intense, and she just rose every single time and did such an incredible job being so vulnerable,

doing really scary, really hard work every single day. It was so stunning and it was so raw. It was like I couldn't, I almost couldn't believe what I was seeing. And it was really brave. And I think it really, it's that kind of work, that kind of honest work is really taxing and I saw her give a hundred and fifty percent every single day so to see to see it pay off in such an amazing way is incredible like it

reads on screen so beautifully I love being able to go there with the character, but you can't do it unless you're surrounded by a group of actors that make you feel safe. Yeah. So I can only imagine that this ensemble is just a very special group of people. Yeah, it was like a little family. And again, it was, we were living and shooting in Las Vegas,

living in a hotel, going down the stairs every single morning at like 6 a.m., shooting until four because we had to get out of the dressing room because real dancers needed to come in. So it was this very sort of intimate, familial experience. And you're right, the best, I mean, there's a lot of stuff that happens in the movie that my favorite moments of the movie are just not scripted.

But that's, I mean, Gia Coppola is so amazing and she just has this amazing way of going, oh, just do that. Just keep doing that for like a minute. Can we get that? And it all, to see it all cut together is really, really cool. It's cool to see someone really work and do what they do best and then see it all cut together. It's like, oh, it's mind blowing.

I learned so much. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Kiernan tells me about why she looks up to Nicolas Cage, watching girls as a woman in her twenties, and what kind of projects would scare her most. Okay, be right back. You know when you discover a new binge-worthy show or song that you just want to bump on repeat? You love it so much that you just have to share it with all of your friends so that they can experience just how awesome it is. So that's kind of what it feels like when you discover that Mint Mobile offers premium wireless for $15 a month when you purchase a three-month plan.

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Al Pacino. It was an out of body experience for me. Jamie Lee Curtis is another one. If I ever got to work with her, I would definitely have an out of body experience. Completely. Like watching Jamie work. I was like, oh my God, this is a masterclass that I'm just sitting in on right now. I feel like I need to God, this is a master class that I'm just sitting in on right now. I feel like I need to pay for this. You know, kind of thing. And it's really, it's amazing. Especially as I get older.

Like, I think that when I was younger, my focus was kind of on, oh, this is acting. It's so fun. I love, you know, performing. And the older I get, the more I realize how much it is just about connecting with other people and learning from the people around you. And that's been like the cherry on top is,

oh my gosh, I actually, the most excited I get is when I get a scene with someone else that I'm excited about or working with this other director. I'm gonna venture out to say that a lot of actors don't say what you just said. I think there's a difference between performers and actors. Interesting. And I think that what you just said is I think there's a difference between performers and actors. Interesting. And I think that what you just said is such an integral

thing about what an act, like this is what theater people talk about all the time. Not to like put them, ooh, gosh. It's like, looks like an earthquake just happened. Theater, let's go. But, you know, not to put theater people off any other type of actors, but I do think there is that thing about connection and not all people who love acting get that.

And I think there's something really special about people who look at it through that lens because there are great actors who I think are working now that don't ever get that. I don't know, it just struck me that you said that because I think it's, you're, I don't know, I don't want to say you're young to be thinking that because you've been working in this,

you've actually had a longer career than I have. I don't know, like 19 years or something. Truly. So silly, so silly. We came up together. Yeah, basically. Yeah, we really did actually. Yeah, you were doing your first Gerber campaign

when I was getting my first paid job. Yeah, yeah, yeah, we were, you know, boots on the ground, doing it. What kind of actors do you admire now? I mean, speaking of people like Jamie Lee Curtis. Yeah, I mean, she's my go-to at the moment, just because I feel like I just got to see her really work and do the thing.

I've been thinking about Nick Cage a lot recently, just because I think that even with long legs, he just takes fun, makes bold choices, and takes big, big risks, and I love that. But I guess I really just like people who feel fearless on screen. My favorite thing is just going, oh, they're just going for it.

I just did a girls rewatch. Oh, I just think it's so good. There's this incredible scene. I mean, it's Lena Dunham. Talk about fearless and like putting herself out there. There's this incredible scene where she's having an argument. I don't know the circumstances of this scene exactly. She's only wearing a shirt, pantless, you know, no, no pants. And they're like, cover up your stuff.

And she pulls down her shirt so it covers up her vagina, and her tit pops out. And it's such great physical comedy. That's amazing. And it also says so much about the character. I really admire all those people. They like pee in the show. And I feel like they're always having a conversation,

and then one of them just goes to the bathroom. And it's like, yes, that's what happens. Yeah, yeah. I have such a great appreciation for the big swings. I agree. I think that I was really, one thing that I think about more and that I try to do more now is just fail,

for lack of a better term, or at least do something that could possibly go terribly wrong because I think I was so scared for a minute there of doing something, and you don't grow from that. You don't change from that, and I think that's, yeah. Is there something that would scare you? I mean, do you always just want theater?

Theater, for sure, because I've never done it before outside of children's theater. Outside of the Youth Academy of Dramatic Arts, Yotta on Third Street, but yeah. Listen, everyone's gotta start somewhere. I mean, a lot of people came out of Dramatic Arts. Yeah, yada on 3rd Street. But yeah Start somewhere. I mean, I love to see on stage. Oh, I would love to go I would love to be on stage, but one day for sure and that would scare me. It could be like incredible and checkoff or something like really Sophisticated. Oh, I take that as a compliment. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. How about you? What scares you? I feel if I'm not scared by something, it's not always worth doing.

So thankfully, I'm scared by lots of things. I'm about to go to a musical that scares me. I haven't done a musical in over 15 years. I'm always scared to do classical theater. I'm about to do Shakespeare in the Park with some like Titans. I always feel like, oh, this is going to be the one where they realize I'm terrible at Shakespeare. And then I end up pulling it out somehow and I end up doing okay.

Yeah. I think I might direct something. Amazing film. Which would be really cool. Yeah. Wonderful. Yeah. So, you know, stuff that takes me really out of my comfort zone.

Yeah. Did John ever direct an episode? He did, he directed maybe two and then Slattery, John Slattery also directed a few. Yeah, more than a few. I mean I love an actor, director. I do too. We had Bryan Cranston direct a few of our episodes

which was really intimidating. Oh my gosh, yeah that's terrifying. Terrifying. But he's not terrifying. No, all the fear was completely from me. Yeah, that's terrifying. Terrifying. But he's not terrifying. No. He's lovely. All the fear was completely from me. Now that you mentioned Bryan Cranston, one of my favorite memories of Nolan Gould is I think he broke his arm.

Yes. And he was at the Emmys with his cast. And he got Bryan Cranston to sign his cast. Yeah, that's right. And was getting all of these amazing people to sign his cast. And I was like, damn, I really should break my arm or at least time it right next time so that it coincides with an award show.

I was so geeking out. I was geeking out about Kristen Wiig at the time. Oh, who was it? And it was when she was doing that character, like, oh, don't make me sing. Oh, don't make me dance. Don't make me dance. Don't make me sing.

And she was sitting across the aisle from me one of the first years that she was nominated for supporting actress in a comedy. And I went up to her like, oh my God, I'm getting sweaty just thinking about this. I basically asked her, I pulled out my, oh God. I pulled out my camera, I pulled out my phone. And I said, oh no, oh God,

I'm really actually getting palpitations for this. I pulled out my phone. I said, would you, me and my boyfriend, my Justin, my boyfriend at the time, we were just obsessed with, don't make me sing character. Would you like do it? Like basically asked her to perform it for me with the camera. I put on my camera, like putting it in her face and she was so generous. My God. She's like, Oh no, not right now. And I was like, of course, of course, of course. And I was-

Absolutely, Ms. Wigg, I am so sorry. It was probably like our first season and I was just like so starstruck by everyone. Oh my God. And the thing is, I was at this last Emmy Awards presenting and she was in a room with me. Kristen Wigg was in a room with me. And I really have had very little interaction

with her since that moment. Maybe like waves across the room or something. Sure, sure. And I was thinking like, I need to take this opportunity to go up to her and apologize for how awful that was. And like just be like, I'm better now, I'm a better person now, I promise I'm much cooler. And I still freaked out, I wasn't able to approach her.

So if this ever gets back to her, I just want her to know that she really doesn't remember. Or maybe she does. It's okay, we all make mistakes. That's then and then. I was talking about how I love a big swing, but I did not like to know that. Sorry, Kristen. She really doesn't remember, or maybe she does. It's okay, we all make mistakes. Yeah, we do. That's then and may. I mean, I was talking about how I love a big swing, but I did not like that big swing.

Well, I like it because I feel like it probably shaped you in some kind of way. Like, you know, you know, next time. I'm going to approach it differently. I am so glad you said yes to this. I will have lunch with you any day of the week. Also, coffee, such a good move. Right?

I'm going gonna finish this. Are you sure? And don't worry about leaving anything. Dinner's on me. Mm, what? Next time, dinner will be on me. Thank you, Jesse. Oh.

This episode of Dinner's on Me was recorded at Forage in Silver Lake, California. Next week on Dinner's on Me, she's an actor with over 150 credits to her name. I mean, you've literally seen her in everything from rom-coms like The Wedding Singer to Marvel's Ant-Man franchise. And coming up next is her holiday film, the best Christmas pageant ever, it's Judy Greer. We talk about her deciding to walk 16 miles to a party in the valley, which actor she

envied when she was coming up, and who made her absolutely starstruck? And if you don't wanna wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinners on Me Plus. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad-free.

Just click Try Free at the top of the Dinners On Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinners On Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Angela Vang. Sam Baer engineered this episode. Hans-Dyl She composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy

Allison. Special thanks to Tamika Balanz-Kolassani and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.