Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Natasha Bedingfield — on feeling the rain on your skin and life lessons from Sia

Episode Date: July 1, 2025

Pop music sensation Natasha Bedingfield joins the show. Over wild mushroom ravioli, Natasha tells me about her conservative religious upbringing and how it’s been a form of connecting with others, the real story behind her iconic single ‘Unwritten’, and an early career moment with Sia. This episode was recorded at Mallow in Borough Market in London. Want next week’s episode now? Subscribe to Dinner’s on Me PLUS. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, but you’ll also be able to listen completely ad-free! Just click “Try Free” at the top of the Dinner’s on Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. A Sony Music Entertainment & A Kid Named Beckett production. Get 15% off your Saily plan with the code dinneronme. Just download the Saily app or head to saily.com/dinneronme. Stay connected — and don’t miss your dinner reservation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

So I'm currently traveling abroad in London right at the moment, which is why so many of my episodes have people with British accents right now. It's amazing here. I love it. Until I need directions or restaurant recs or anything, and I've got no Wi-Fi and sky-high roaming fees, which is just not cute. That's why I started using Salie. Salie is an easy-to-use eSIM app created by the folks behind NordVPN. It gives you instant mobile data in over 190 countries and you only have to install it

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or planning our podcast recording, I know I'm hydrating the earth's finest way. Fiji water. It's earth's finest water. Hi, it's Jesse. Today on the show you know her from her hits Pocket Full of Sunshine, Wild Horses, and of course, unwritten, I am here on a rainy day and I'm feeling the rain on my skin because no one else is going to feel it for me and I am here to meet Natasha Bettingfield. Culturally, New Zealanders, they don't go inside when it rains. They kind of just keep doing what they're doing. It's a lovely metaphor, like just keep going, just keep being who you are no matter what.

This is Dinners On Me and I'm your host Jesse Tyler Ferguson. I am so excited to be in London at the same time as Natasha Bettingfield. She is passing through, she's doing a million shows this summer and I'm so excited that she agreed to meet up with me and have lunch. I'm such a huge fan of hers. Justin is such a huge fan of hers. I love her music. I love the positivity of her music. It's a music that I feel like has been the soundtrack for really the last 20 years of my life.

I'm so excited to meet her in person. I'm bringing Natasha to Malo right near the Borough Market. Borough Market is incredible here in London. It's very crowded, mind you, but it has incredible food, incredible shops. It's been here since like the 1200s, which is a long time ago. Now, Borough Market has never had a plant-based restaurant

until now. Malo is the first, and I am so excited to bring my new friend, Natasha Bedingfield, to have some great plant-based food. Let's get to the conversation. Where do you live mostly? I live in New York. Oh, you do?

Okay, where in New York do you live? Yeah, um, Westchester. Oh, nice. Near Martha's, uh, Stewart. No, yeah. Martha Stewart, yeah. Yeah. I've been meaning to go.

I need a coffee. I'm really good friends with Martha Stewart's, like, culinary advisor. I don't know what her exact title is, but they've been working together for like 25 years. Her name's Sarah Carey and I love her. She's one of my closest friends. She was up there doing some prep work.

She's like, just come up here. Martha's not here. Just come up and hang out with me. I feel weird going to Martha Stewart's house without her there. I actually went to Elton John's house without him there. No. Yeah, because my, you know how Elton and David Furnish are so amazing at encouraging new artists?

Yes. My brother had some hit songs. And then they invited me and my brother to stay the night. So we stayed at Elton's house. Is this the one that's in the south of France? It's the one that's English. Yeah, OK, OK. It feels like the Queen's house. But I wasn't known yet, I hadn't released anything yet.

And I never actually saw Elton, but I really bonded with David Furnish. And that's when I noticed how good they are with really new talent. Oh yeah, that's like, and it's still to say. And my brother was the one, and I was just the sibling, but they were so kind to me.

So your brother's also, I know that you performed with your siblings when you were young. Yeah, yeah. So your brother had... My brother is the one who really knocked the door down for me because he wrote, like he made music in his bedroom so he would make your own stuff and then it found its way onto the desk of a DJ

and then there was a bidding war about him. So he's known as the father of garage music because his song is a really big hit there. I don't know anything about that. I have to go listen to him. You'll probably know the song. I probably do. Oh yeah, hello.

Hi. How are you? Oh yeah, I'm good, thank you. How are you doing with the menu? Have you had a chance to look at the drinks? No. I would love a coffee, please. Oh, I think I would too as well.

What's the specialty with the thing? Do you have a few? An amazing chai. I know that's not coffee. Oh yeah. An amazing chai. Oh yeah. I love chai. Do you have non-dairy the thing? Do you have a few? We do an amazing chai. I know that's not coffee. Oh yeah. But the coffee is also good for chai. I love chai.

Do you have non-dairy? We do, we have a little almond. Oat chai it is. Cool. Thank you. You're doing an oat chai? Yeah. I'll do an oat chai as well.

Can I throw a shot of espresso in there? Yeah, dirty chai. Dirty chai. Dirty chai it is. Lovely. And have you had a chance to look at the menu at all? I haven't looked yet. It's fine.

Is there anything we must try? I would definitely try the wild mushroom ravioli. I'll have that for sure. Yeah, yeah. The strawberry ale and the patoush makes a nice side dish. It's a nice antidote. That sounds great. Fresh, yeah.

Okay. Okay, so we have the leek butter with some sourdough, the wild mushroom ravioli, the ale and salad, and the goby. Amazing, thank you. Saffron filo. Yeah. Were you on stage like last night?

Yeah, I was at the BBC on Friday, big weekend. That's huge. Yeah, it was amazing. Like a big outdoor festival. Yeah, it was amazing. So good, and then I was at another one in Leeds the next day. Yes.

But I've just done four days in a row of shows. Oh my gosh. I did like eight days in a row, six shows in eight days, but they're all in different places. So I was in Mexico City and I was in Chicago. I've just been doing so many different things, at festivals, colleges, stuff like that. Yeah.

Yeah. Why do you still like performing live? I love it. Is it your favorite thing? I love it. I don't like the travel, but I like the performing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not nervous performing, which is nice.

Oh, really? Yeah. Have you ever been nervous? I usually get nervous afterwards, which I don't know if that's a familiar thing, if that happens to many people. But I don't get nervous before. But I usually feel like a kind of shame afterwards, like this thing of like, oh, that outfit was a bad choice,

or like, oh, what do I think I'm doing? This is a terrifying job. Because sometimes when you're actually up there, it's like, you know, so I kind of, my technique for not being nervous is to downplay it in my mind and be like, it's just a day at work. But sometimes I arrive and I'm like, it was not definitely just a day at work, it was like, that was at the, you know,

O2 arena with 80,000 people and I'm like. So you have like retroactive anxiety about like, oh my god, I can't believe what I did last night. I really do, I really do, yeah. Yeah, shame spiral. I can understand that, yeah. You have had that before. Do you watch things that you do?

Well, I used to watch myself on talk shows and stuff, and now I can't do it because of that very reason that you're saying, because I'll watch myself, like, oh, why did I say it that way? So I'd rather it just be in the past and have it in my head and you know, not have to like analyze it. But like if I do watch myself,

like I watched every episode of Modern Family and part of it was cause I just really was, thank you. Part of it was just cause I really enjoyed the people I worked with and I wanted to watch their work and I was a fan of all of them. And like I was really proud of the show and I, you know, but sometimes I would watch and I'd say, oh, they used that take and it's not my favorite.

And they'd cut it together strangely. Yeah, it was like an angle of your face. Because you're trying to focus on acting well, you're not trying to focus on looking good. So it's like one angle where you look like that. I discovered I was balding in the back of my head from watching Modern Family. I was like, what's that going on back there?

Oh my god, is that actually a thing that's happening? That's super cool. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love Modern Family and I really think it's changed the world. I mean, I tend to agree with you. I think that you did a lot of really great stuff for gay rights. I really think you really made a huge difference. Yeah.

I'm sure you did that. We have something in common and that we both grew up in religious families. Oh, you did as well? Yeah, I was raised Roman Catholic. I went to Catholic school from grade, you know, first through high school. Wow. I went to church like every morning. Yeah.

And I sang in the church choir. Really? Me too. I just remember noticing as a teenager that a lot of the Christian songs had sexual and I sing in the church choir. Really? Me too. I just remember noticing as a teenager that a lot of the Christian songs had sexual innuendos in them. It's because I was in the very evangelical Christianity and you'd be like, come Lord Jesus.

Right. All those words can have double meanings and I was like, I'm my dirty brain. Like I just had to stop thinking of it like that. But there's something powerful about the music side, isn't there, with why I think all the religions use music, because it kind of takes you out of yourself and you're able to connect with other people and kind of relate to your higher self. But we grew up with all that kind of very involved kids.

That was all very church-based. And really feeling quite passionate about it, you know, like there was a kind of a purpose. I just remember thinking the world was a really horrible, terrible place, and then as an adult going, oh, there's actually so much wonderfulness in the world and it isn't such a terrible place. I mean, I definitely absolutely relate to that.

Growing up queer and being raised in the Roman Catholic Church, so much of what was coming at me was stuff that scared me, obviously. And like, you know, it made me really worried about, like, the state of my soul and like what was gonna happen to me. And, you know, I had a very complicated relationship

with organized religion. And, you know, for, I think for me, and I don't know if, I don't think this happens with a lot of people, but I had to really sort of step away from it. And now as an adult, I'm coming back towards spirituality like on my own terms. And I found more peace and I found more of a,

I don't know, I guess like a church within myself that feels appropriate and correct. There's an amazing priest who's not alive anymore but his name's Father Richard Rohr, and he talks a lot about that kind of thing of like, finding the parts of that religion that really were helpful. I think he had a term called slaveholder Christianity.

Like there's a kind of exclusive Christianity that is like a club. It's not really probably what Jesus would have taught. And it's kind of like people who are not really in touch with their consciences because they used to do terrible things. And then they go to church on Sunday with a pure heart and kiss their children. And then actually have to do the most atrocious acts. So there's almost like inherent in people this denial that is so thick and so much part of hereditary

that's even hard to see. But when you go through hard things in life, like someone dying, that's when you really do need something to sustain you because those things are so incredibly hard and you do need prayer and you do need something to sustain you because those things are so incredibly hard and you do need prayer and you do need fellowship. I 100% agree with you. I lost my mom in November.

Oh, I'm so sorry. I had such a, thank you, I had such a, you know, because I'm not religious. I don't go to church every Sunday, but that was part of my history and I found myself going back to a lot of those roots just for peace of mind. Because you know when you lose someone that's so close to you there are those questions like where are they now and like yeah like where is

their soul and how am I gonna stay connected to that person. I went through a real I don't know evolution with like how I feel about death and like it was something that I feel like I had to do in that moment like I don't know, evolution with how I feel about death. And it was something that I feel like I had to do in that moment. I don't think I could do it without having the actual loss in front of me. I needed that as sort of an impetus to sort of recalibrate and rethink about my relationship with. Well, that's apparently, again, what this father roar was saying. It's like the valley of the shadow of death. That's a moment where everyone faces at some point,

but some people experience it much sooner. But that's a moment where you discover a new part of yourself and a new connection, like a deeper connection with everybody else who's experienced the same thing. And a lot of people do experience when someone dies is you can actually feel the spirit leaving. There's something beyond just blood and guts, there's some energy exchange that happens. For sure.

It's amazing, but it's horrible. I mean, no, loss is very, very difficult. I have a song called Wild Horses. It's a huge gay anthem. It's like so many people come up to me and say, that's the song that they came out, encourage them to come out to their parents. For me, it's like religious repression is powerful.

Why did I write a song that lots of gay people feel such a resonance with? I think it's because I understand repression. What was your... Oh, yeah, interesting. I was going to say, what were you thinking about when you wrote Rilehorses? Well... Just freedom. Being recklessly loving whoever you need to or want to,

and being... Yeah. being allowed to be reckless. I don't know, who knows like why you start writing a song and why sometimes you write a song for one reason and then it becomes true in many other ways. Right, absolutely. Because it's kind of like a deeper, you're kind of channeling in a way. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Natasha tells me about how a poem for her brother turned into her biggest hit, and the double-edged sword of having success so early on in her career.

Okay, be right back. This summer I'll be spending a lot of time in New York City working on Shakespeare in the Park, which I am so excited about, but it also means I'll be away from home and Justin will be juggling the kids and the home fort, which is hectic enough without also having to worry about home security. That's why we use SimpliSafe. We've got the full setup, cameras, sensors, 24-7 monitoring.

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school near you. And we're back with more Dinners on Me. I know you've told this story so many times, but I just find it so fascinating that, you know, Unwritten, which is one of the songs that you're most known for, was written for your brother. It was a poem for your brother. Yeah, it's not anything.

Usually he was so young when he wrote that. Yeah, I was 21. But he was young, he was, wow. 14? Maybe I was 20 and he was 14, yeah. Yeah, it was my birthday present to my brother and that even like 20 years later, it's that age group that keeps on rediscovering the song.

Yeah, I mean so many graduations play it. Yeah, totally. If you look on Spotify, it's mostly 17 to 25 right now that's playing it, which is pretty... I mean, that lyric that you were sort of talking about, about the rain, it's such an evocative lyric and it's one of the things that's most quoted from that song. But I mean, saying, feel the rain on your skin, no one else can feel it for you is very powerful. Yeah. Did you see when Drew Barrymore was standing in the rain?

Yes. That's what my baby- It's called brain talk. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's what made me think of it. She's like, go out in the rain and feel it. Feel it. You have to go out in the rain.

It's the most wonderful thing. There's also some funny ones where people are like, Natasha Bennet, well, you, like basically you suck because this is not pleasant because it's freezing cold. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not for everyone. It's also like, my family comes from New Zealand,

which rains every day. Yes. And so, I realized that when I was in New Zealand at Christmas, that culturally, New Zealanders, they don't go inside when it rains. Like they kind of just keep doing what they're doing. And so I realized that when I was in New Zealand at Christmas, that culturally, New Zealanders, they don't go inside when it rains. They kind of just keep doing what they're doing. And it's a lovely metaphor, like, just keep going,

just keep being who you are no matter what. Even when you, I mean, I've done so much therapy, but people who encourage you to feel all your emotions or feel them, feel the anger, let it burn through you, don't block it out. All of those things are really very powerful for growth. Yeah.

Yeah. When you create something at such a young age, and your first album was so successful and had this huge hit with Unwritten, do you remember, I mean, and it's easier when you're younger because I feel like I let pressure roll off of me when I was younger. Like I had, I just had no fear.

I was like, next thing, bring it on. Yeah. And as an adult, you know, when you, when you create something or make something that's really good, I had, now I'm sort of saddled with immediate like, oh God, what next? Will I be able to top that? Or will I even be able to match that?

Do you remember having any feelings like that when you wrote your first songs and they were so popular and how to keep up with this thing you've created? Yeah, my second album in England was a flop. I wrote a song, it was really funny, it was called I Want to Have Your Babies. Songwriting is really fun. I co-write with people and we feel like we're in SNL. We're just writing bits all day. And we write a lot of funny songs. And we wrote one song my first time called Size Matters. But not how you think.

We just kind of love playing with a double entendre. And so this one song was I Want to Have Your Babies. And it was all about what women are really thinking when they're on a date. I'm trying to find the father of their kids, of course. Like, you're just looking at their eyelashes and going, wouldn't it be great if my kid could have those eyelashes? But the British radio, they banned it on Radio 2,

and they thought it was gonna encourage young women to go out and have babies. Like, you're just completely missing the point. And... That's also such an overreaction and so I went away to America and I added like seven new songs and one of them was pocket full of sunshine and love like this huge hat and those end up being great but it was that was a hard feeling to feel like you know you have a hit and then your label is like, by the way, just to let you know,

anything less than number one isn't a hit to us. Like, so just a number six is not, that's a failure to us. Yeah, I feel like one of the reasons I connect so deeply with your music and so many people do is that there's a lightness to it and there's a positivity to it. And kind of at a time when so many writers are writing about like yearning for love or like loss of love or I don't know, just heavier topics. There's a lot of heartbreak. Like if there's no pain, like they're not necessarily interested in writing about it.

And I know that some of your songs do have that pain in it, but I think that you do lead with a positivity that feels, I don't know, it just feels very, I don't know, it feels very front footed and it just feels very positive. Thank you. Do you, does that? I have to write a lot of sad songs

to get to the happy ones, to be honest. Like you just, I write hundreds of songs that don't get used, but I think resonating is the most important thing. So for me, I guess the more, for some reason, the more positive stuff resonates more. Right, right. I mean, you're now a mother. How would you describe your songwriting now as you know a parent and has it changed? I don't know if it's changed. I think it's deepened. I think like I just don't have any writer's block anymore.

Like I think it helps you make decisions quicker. Don't you think? You're like, this is my valuable time. Right. I could be spending this time with my kid. Yeah. So this better be amazing. This is my focus is all over the map now. I don't have the focus I used to have. Yeah. So this better be amazing. My focus is all over the map now. I don't have the focus I used to have. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Do you have mom brain? I do have mom brain. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You don't sleep enough.

Yeah. Yeah. And how did you meet your husband? OK, I met my husband in in Nashville in the Opryland in a Gibson guitar center in the Opryland mall. Oh, interesting. I was doing a little. What was he doing there? I was doing a radio showcase and he was a in a Gibson guitar center in the Opryland Mall. Oh, interesting. I was doing a little. What was he doing there? I was doing a radio showcase,

and he was a friend of my friend, and he came along to watch. Oh, okay. I think it was like we hung out all night with a bunch of friends, and then the next day I was just asking my friend, I'm like, was he hot? I think he was hot.

Should I stay in touch? And then we started texting, and then the rest is history. We've been together like 18 years or something. Yeah. And is he, he's a director? So he is a multi-talented person. He does a lot of things.

He does real estate. He does directing. He makes music. He writes. Incredible. He doesn't like have like a one, he's not like a, like one talent kind of person. Yeah. He's annoyingly good at everything. God. have like a one, he's not like a one talent kind of person. He's annoyingly good at everything.

Oh, God. Yeah. He can play instruments better than me. Really? But he doesn't go around saying that he's a musician. It's incredible, yeah. Have you guys ever played together? Yeah, I mean, just around the house.

We just play. Our house is very musical. Have you ever written with him? But it's him playing the music, not me. Yeah, we've written. Is he a good songwriter? Yeah, he's great. He has a record in Denmark. He does. That an artist, he wrote all the music for. Oh, no way. Yeah, an artist called Aura Dion. Incredible. Hi, how are you? That looks incredible.

And the screw fatouche to go with that. Have you ever had a massage of your vocal cords? No. I had that. I know that sounds a bit dirty. No, it doesn't. That's a double meaning right there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But maybe I have actually.

No, but somebody actually- Thank you. You go up in there and it actually warms your voice up. It's kind of incredible. Yeah, all the way in there. I definitely, I, one time on Modern Family, I stifled a sneeze. Oh my gosh.

I covered a sneeze because I was trying to save a take. And then for the rest of the day, I I was like I was getting very raspy and I was like this is very strange and then I basically started like losing my voice and like whistle tones were coming out of my mouth. Wow. And so I went to the doctor and he scoped me with you know a camera down my throat and I had completely ruptured one of my vocal cords. Wow. And I... Was it bleeped, like hemorrhaged? Hemorrhaged, yeah. It was like full of blood.

That's horrible, wow. And so they're like, you have to go on vocal rest for two weeks or else like, you know, you're gonna do a severe dance. Well, I mean, I really couldn't even make any noise. It would have been crazy for me to even try. But you know, on stage, or like, you know, when I've done shows on Broadway, specifically musicals, they're really good

about like, yeah, yeah, take care of yourself, take care of yourself. In Hollywood, they're not so much that way. They weren't really understanding what vocal rest was. Wow. And they thought I could sort of bake my way through it and just be quiet in between takes. And I was like, no, no, I literally cannot say anything. So I had to completely be quiet for two weeks and I had to still shoot because we had an actress in,

who was in Just For The Week, and we had to shoot the stuff with her. And so I basically just stood there and mouthed my lines while someone off camera said my words. And then I had to go back and try and match it like two weeks later. It was a disaster. I mean, when that episode pops up, I'm like,

oh, I look like a bad ventriloquist. It's terrible. I'm gonna go through now and try and find it. It's awful. Who is that? You must always get asked, but who is the person in the show that is like your best friend or the same type? Oh God.

I don't think there's a single... I have such a different relationship with all of them. I mean, Julie Bowen and I have a very special relationship. She really does feel like a sibling. I'm really close with the kids. I'm close with my daughter. I go to like see her school plays. Oh, that's lovely.

But that relationship feels different than when I have a Julie. Sophia's like the one, I text her random videos of me like, who are you dating now? Why am I not getting any information? I treat her like a cool cousin. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Ty Burrell and I, we're, we're like brothers. Yeah. Ed O'Neill really is like a father figure to me. So you stay close then. That's so cool.

Yeah. I'm close with everyone. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Natasha tells me about an embarrassing moment with Sia and what it's like to have Unwritten continue to go viral after all these years. Okay, be right back. Hi to Skype! Well, guess what? I have got a brand new show called R&R with Courtney Act, and I want you to check it out. You know, I hate small talk. I want to go deep and I want to go quickly.

And on my show we do just that. In today's world, it feels really polarized and we're more connected than ever, but really, we can feel isolated and I don't like that. I want the stories shared here on R&R to make us realise that our similarities are greater than our differences. So join me and my fabulous guests like Nicole Byer, Tom Daly, Margaret Cho, Katya, Adore Delano, Jackie Beat and many more. If you're looking for some rest and relaxation you've come to the wrong place because we are peeling back the layers of superficiality when we're getting down to the real stuff. Follow R&R with Courtney Act on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you're listening now.

When life fears off course, your mindset really does become your anchor. I'm Gemma Spagg and each week on my show Mantra, I share one simple but powerful phrase to help you shift your mindset and move through life with more intention. On Mantra, we explore themes like self-trust, resilience, imposter syndrome, and allowing yourself to be celebrated and loved. Each episode blends personal insight with grounded reflection. I unpack what the mantra really means, how it's shown up in my own life, then I share how it can guide you through whatever you're facing with

journal prompts and a weekly challenge to help you take the mantra into your day-to-day life in small but powerful ways. Listen to mantra every Monday wherever you get your podcasts, and don't forget to follow mantra so you never miss an episode. And we're back with more Dinners on Me. Have you ever, like, directed? No. Have you directed or written an episode or anything like that? I've never did that, no.

No. I think I would be a good director. Directing in general. I am going to direct. I feel like you would. I am going to, I actually am going to I've never did that, no. No. I think I would be a good director. Directing in general. I am gonna direct. I feel like you would. I actually am gonna direct. I feel like it. That's something I'm definitely gonna do.

But I never directed an episode of the show. But. Do you write, are you a writer? I write a little bit. It's so funny when you're talking about Derek writing. I wanted to write a musical when I was younger, and I really wanted it to be about the Snow Queen.

The Snow Queen. I was obsessed with the Snow Queen. I was just like, I thought it was really fascinating. Like I loved kind of evil, like mysterious, fast forward, Frozen is about the Snow Queen basically. That's basically what the story is. Oh wow, that's cool. But I remember writing a song,

and the lyrics were so bad. And I still could play it on the piano. Actually, I'm friendly with Sia. Oh, I love Sia too. I love her so much. And I was at her house with some friends, and she was like, does anyone play the piano? I was like, I'm gonna play you the song

I wrote when I was 14. It's amazing. And I kind of forgot how it went, and I was really embarrassed, and I was nervous. It was like, I was 14. It's amazing. And I kind of forgot how it went and I was really embarrassed because I was nervous. I was playing Sia's piano and singing for her. And she like, I have a video of me playing because Justin immediately took out his phone

and started recording my husband. And she's sort of standing behind me like a very supportive mother who's like not super into it. That's very creative. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I was not a into it. That's very, that's when you go, that's very creative. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but I was not a very good lyricist. But you had the passion. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, I had, yeah, exactly. And I've never finished that musical.

I was late for a session with Sia one time. Where are you? It was before she had her like whole pop thing. Was it when she was just writing music? I was a fan of her when she was in 07 and when she had her own solo, Sia Ferlo, Sia Ferlo stuff. I've been following her for years. And then I wrote a few songs with her.

And one time I was late. But this is before Chandelier and all of that. And she, I think I was probably half an hour late. And she was like, I just decided to have a day off. If it's not that important to you, then it's not important to me. And I'll just give myself a day off. I just was always late.

I was always late. It was a good lesson. I was like, I had only had my career for about a year or two. So I was brand new artist. So you were in your early 20s. I was number one. I was busy. And then a lot of times your schedule gets packed, packed, packed. So you're kind of early 20s. I was number one, you know, I was I was busy and then a lot of times your schedule

gets packed packed packed. So you're kind of a bit late because it gives you a little extra time. Okay, have you gotten better with that? A little bit. Now I just tell people to lie to me what time to come. Yeah, yeah, I do that. I have some friends I just don't have to do that with. Yeah, that's the kind of lie I don't mind. Yeah, but but it was a good lesson. It was like a kind of like oh, oh wow. Did you ever have a makeup session with her? Yeah, yeah. And we wrote some amazing stuff. Oh good.

Never released yet. Not yet. Oh really? Oh interesting. I actually went back and listened to it. There's one song that feels like a huge hit. Really? When did you write it with her?

Super relevant, especially now since after all the things that the world's been through. Honestly, I can't believe it. It's in the archives. and I was just like, this song would be a hit. So you wrote it a long time ago. Like 19 years ago. It would be a hit if I put it out right now.

Will you? I could. Do we need to call Sia and make sure that we can? Yeah. No, we could. It's gotta be so weird. Like when you wrote Unwritten, social media wasn't even a thing. I know, yeah.

And now you've got to witness it, like go through, you know, it obviously was the theme song of The Hills. Yeah. Which, you know, which a lot of people came to you through just being a fan of that show. It must be so weird, 20-something years later, to see it have this whole other life

with a whole new generation of people on this platform that never existed. We didn't have bones in our hands 20 years ago. Yeah, I mean, you couldn't put a picture of yourself out without checking with the record company, like, is this picture approved or am I wearing enough makeup? Yeah, I remember when YouTube first started

and people started singing people's songs, like miming to people. We were like, this is so funny. I remember, do you remember that? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then Vine. Yeah, Vine. So the first time Unwritten went viral after being,

it was like six years after it was released when it was a kid in a car, and he's singing Unwritten as he's at a traffic light out the window, and that went viral. Ed Sheeran just recreated that actually. Oh, he did? Yeah, because it's one of those ones that people remember. Yeah, it's amazing.

I actually do like TikTok because I feel there are so many different communities on TikTok. There's quite a lot of positivity. And it's not just dance. I'm not really a dance moves person. When I first came out 20 years ago, every pop girl in England was dancing, pole dancing. But like dancing and miming.

That was what a pop music was. And I was like, no, I'm singing live and I'm not doing any dance moves. And that was in itself such a battle. Like, what are you thinking? Why aren't you doing dance? Because I'm just like, that's not the... I can't mime. I just pretend I can't do it.

Yeah. When you say miming, you mean like lip sync? Lip syncing. Yeah. Yeah. Using a recorded voice and pretending. Right, right, right. Who are some of the people that you,

like young artists that are coming up now that you're admiring? Oh yeah, I love Olivia Dean. I don't know her. So great, such a great voice. And there's an artist called Mauro who's from Portugal. Okay. His voice is so silky, so wonderful. Wonderful.

I love Lola Young. Super fun and real and honest. And I really also love Chaperone. Chaperone's great. I play Chaperone before I get ready for my show sometimes. Oh, you do? It really puts me in a good mood. She's an amazing singer, so I can sing along,

belt along to all her songs. Yeah, yeah, have you ever met her? No, I haven't either. I'd love to meet her. I'm dying to meet her. Yeah. I'm dying to hear the song that you wrote with Sia. I know, it's so beautiful, it's called Build It Up.

It's, oh, it's powerful. Like once you've been through something devastating and that you were gonna just keep building it up brick by brick, it's truly a stunning song. Why have you not released it yet? Well, the label just chose not to use it and then I just found it again recently and was like, this song is genius.

So I think I should put it on my record. I think you should. But I got a bunch of new songs. I'm very excited. When? They're like my babies, the new songs. Yeah think you should. But I got a bunch of new songs. I'm very excited. When? They're like my babies. When is new music coming out for you? I don't know exactly when because it's kind of like I have to have the bandwidth to really promote it. Yeah. But ideally as soon as possible could be great to put new music out. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And do music videos.

Should I get all my famous friends in there? Yeah, yeah. I did a Taylor Swift video, I'll do one of your videos. You did? You did Taylor Swift? I did a Taylor Swift video. Oh my gosh, that would be amazing. You need to calm down.

Can you please be in one of my videos? I will absolutely be in one of your videos. No one ever asked me to do fun stuff like that. I would love that. That would be so cool. Oh, Betty Who? Yeah, I love Betty Who. I was in a Betty Who video, too.

Amazing. Did you like it? Was it a good experience? Betty Who and Taylor Swift. Those are the only two people who asked me. It was great. Well, I'm asking you now, so. I'll absolutely be your video.

Amazing. That's so cool. Do you like doing that part of it? Yeah. The creative part. The parts that remind you that this is art, you know? And there's parts that make you feel like it's a brand or, you know, there's parts, and then you go,

oh yeah, this is art. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you feel, like what, no, I was just gonna ask you so many things too, because you've asked me no, I was just gonna ask you so many things too, because you've asked me so many things. You can ask me anything. I'm so interested when you said that you grew up in the church. Do you feel healed from the kind of difficult parts of that?

Like from having to... Yeah, it's an interesting question. Yeah, like does it still hit you sometimes, the shame or the like? The shame doesn't hit me, I get... Remember that moment, shame. Yeah, yeah, it still hit you sometimes, the shame or the like? The shame doesn't hit me. I get... Remember that moment, shame, shame in Game of Thrones. Yeah, that's right, that's right.

It's not shame. It's more... And I hate to hold resentment because that's not helping anyone and it's something I'm working through, but like I do have a bit of resentment toward just the environment that I was placed in at such an early age. Being a gay kid, it's a very difficult thing. I have so much empathy for kids who are growing up in a place where they don't feel like

or part of the country where they don't feel like they have a community. It's one of the reasons why I do love what you're just saying about the social media and TikTok and how you have a community. You can find people in any part of the world that you can relate to. And I think that's really important. It's one of the great things about social media and things like podcasts and television

shows and why I'm so proud of Modern Family. You know, the stories will reach people in places that they need to be reached. I didn't have any of that growing up. I had... Yeah, you didn't. I had the environment that was around me and limited resources. I didn't have cable TV.

I had a very microscopic sense of the world. And so it was hard. It was really hard growing up. Did the environment make you feel like there's something wrong with you? Or that you had to... Did you have to pretend to be something? I was never ashamed of myself. Which I'm really proud of myself for not being ashamed.

That's good. I did feel like I had to really keep a secret, though. Mmm. And... any sort of exploration of the LGBTQ community felt really wrong and dirty and that's what I resent. I didn't feel like it was but I felt like any opportunity I took to like look into it was going to get me in trouble. Yeah, yeah.

So any outreach that I might have given, reached out for, like anyone I would have reached out to would have felt wrong. Yeah. And that I resent. Rejected. Yeah, I resent that. And I have incredibly supportive parents,

but at the time they were struggling with it. And I don't blame them at all. Like, I think, you know, I think growth is really beautiful. I think everyone has... Everyone should feel like they can grow. Like, we should never feel like we are the people who we are. Like, we're not raised to be a certain way. And both my parents did an incredible work on themselves

and really understood so much about who I was and they came so far with that. Was it kind of that thing, like this is what boys do, like kind of be a man, was it that kind of thing? It's interesting you ask because I was sent to a psychiatrist when I was young. It's almost like they needed a medical professional to tell them that I was gay.

Wow. Even though, I mean, like, the signs were all there and they could have just asked me. But it was a secular part? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember the psychiatrist, and I didn't know at the time that that's what it was, but it was pretty clear.

You know, I'd go in and play with this person, and they would have Barbies, and they'd have GI Joes, and they're like, what do you wanna play with? And I remember that was, they would just observe me and watch me play. And I was always playing, there was a board game called Life, and I was always interested in playing Life. And they're like, well, it sort of sits

right in the middle, doesn't it? You're a serious kid. Yeah, yeah, yeah like always interested in playing life and they're like well it sort of like sits right in the middle doesn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah It's they weren't getting the answers that they wanted because I wasn't I wasn't attracted to Barbies or GI Joe's like those weren't You're a kid. Yeah, I was a kid I was interested in like coloring. Yeah, like what are you coloring? I was like, I'm just coloring a house Like what? It's almost overanalyze it at that point. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah, I think that they needed answers,

they needed someone to sort of tell them how to navigate that. But after I left and I went to New York to study acting, and I became more of like who I ended up becoming, like I found my community and I found my people that I was able to open up to. That allowed me to be more open with them and you know we met somewhere in the middle and you know my parents were both at my wedding to my husband and obviously I told you my mom passed away but like she loved her grandkids and my dad loves his grandkids and

they really are wonderful. They were wonderful parents and they are wonderful parents. But it took a while. And I think a lot of it was the environment I grew up in. And a lot of it was the church. I mean, it was hard. Yeah. But even in Hollywood, I feel like you were a lot of times gay characters who were played by straight guys.

Yeah. I feel like you actually were able to bring the authenticity that hadn't been allowed either, even within Hollywood. I was very proud to be an out gay man playing an out gay man on TV. Man, I thank you on behalf of everyone. Thank you. That's very sweet. Thank you. Because that's how I feel, is that the gay community has just brought so much freedom to me and so many people, because it's all about authenticity and powerful. Yeah, I mean, that's why.

I mean, they resonate so much with your music. Yeah. Yeah, you have a huge LGBTQ fan base. I really do. Yeah, and I love it. I feel like the only crowd who really understands what I'm singing about for some reason, and who kind of care about the words.

Yeah. Yeah. We're not the only crowd, but there's a deep understanding that I feel. They understand it in a very deep way, yeah. Yeah. It's so nice meeting you. You too.

I'm such a fan of yours. Thank you. Me too. Likewise. Thank you for doing this. It's a really pleasure. Thank you for having me on this. Absolutely. It's so nice meeting you. You too. I'm such a fan of yours. Thank you. Me too. Likewise. It's a pleasure. Thank you for having me on. Absolutely.

It's so fun. I'm so glad you could do this. This episode of Dinners on Me was recorded at Mallow in Borough Market in London's South Wark neighborhood. Next week on Dinners on Me, you know him from queer TV favorites like Looking and American Horror Story NYC. It's Russell Tovey. We get into growing up queer in 90s Essex, his new exciting project called Plainclothes,

and we get emotional talking about special furry family members. And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinners on Me Plus. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad-free. Just click Try Free at the top of the Dinners on Me show page on Apple Podcasts to search your free trial today. Dinners on Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions.

It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our show runner is Joanna Clay. Our producer in the UK is Grace Laker. Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf. Sam Baer engineered this episode. Hans-Dale Sheeck composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison.

Special thanks to Tamika Balanz-Klasny and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.