Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Noma Dumezweni — on subverting expectations as Hermione Granger, and acting opposite Alexander Skarsgard

Episode Date: September 23, 2025

'Murderbot’ star Noma Dumezweni joins the show. Over pumpkin curry and pad see ew, Noma reflects on the joy of finding success in mid-life and why it’s never too late to dream bigger than you imagined. She opens up about tough days growing up as a refugee in the UK, her unexpected and acclaimed turn (and Tony nominated role) as Hermione Granger in ‘Harry Potter and the Cursed Child,’ and the lessons she’s learned about trusting timing, family, and herself. Noma also talks about becoming a familiar face in prestige TV dramas (‘The Undoing,’ ‘Presumed Innocent’), what it’s like to spar on screen with Alexander Skarsgård in the Apple TV+ sci-fi hit ‘Murderbot,’ and why she loves being in awe of her fellow actors. This episode was recorded at Sukh in Fort Greene, Brooklyn. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hi, it's Jesse. Today on the show, you know her from prestige TV shows like MurderBot, The Undoing, and The Watcher. It's Noma Duma Zwenny. I'd be you reincarnated. I think I'm you reincarnated as a white gay man. And you know that shit happens. And I've always said, I know I'm a gay man in a woman's body.

I really do. This is Dinner's On Me, and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. I am here. back in my old neighborhood of Fort Green Brooklyn, waiting for Noma Dumazweeney. I am such a fan of hers. I first saw her on stage in Harry Potter. She played Hermione Granger in the stage adaptation of Harry Potter in London, and then later on Broadway. And I fell in love with this woman. And I've since watched her in incredible TV shows like The Undoing and Presumed Innocent. She's on Murder Bot, which our previous guest,

Alexandra Scarsgaard, is also a star on. It's real. It's real. It's really happening. It's real. I am so excited. I'm settling into a corner seat at Sook, which is Fort Green's ultra cozy train car-inspired tie spot.

This place did not exist when I was here 15 years ago, and I'm so happy it's here now. It makes me want to move back to this neighborhood, actually. It has these cute plush red booths, warm wood paneling, modeling, moody lighting, and it makes you feel like you've boarded an old school express bound for, I don't know, deliciousness? Hopefully, I bet it's going to be pretty delicious. So many of my friends have told me this place is amazing.

The menu is a little cheeky. It's designed to look like a newspaper and serves up not just dishes, but stories. It details the ingredients, the regional origins, and a nod to Thailand's rich railway culture. It's a perfect place to press pause. pour a pondon coconut refresher and settle in with Noma all right let's get to the conversation I feel that we've met once briefly but we have

we might have I don't know but we've never met this yeah we've never met like this we've never had time I mean I think the last time I saw you live was when you were in Harry Potter oh my God yes that's my arrival into New York probably yeah right ended up staying because of the kid found a great education When you did Harry Potter, how old was her daughter? She was 11. She must be going to college at this point. This September, well-done, boy.

She just graduated from high school. She starts pace at the end of this month. Incredible. Yes, at the end of this month, so she starts next week. How do you feel about that? I'm so excited, because it's been a journey in the sense that I only came in for Harry Potter for just that year and a half, as we all did. My kid with her dyslexia found this extraordinary education that's very specific to New York.

and we were just going to be there for the seven months and she'd finished primary school so come September started we're going to go in March and then she asked in the January of that year 2019 could I stay to the end of the year so it's March April May June, three more months I was like yeah I'm going to finish this bum

and I always go she gave me the luck for the career I've had in this moment because I think with your kids Sullivan and Beckett Yes, that you follow them Yeah then everything happens and I remember a friend

Years ago, Michael's saying, baby's a good luck. If we can just sit in that space, follow what they need. And my baby girl, now 18, I was like, oh, that really is true. I followed me and her dad who are not together, you know, great co-parents. Damien and I have gone, what does Quiever need? And it was hard for him, for her to stay here. He's in London. Okay.

Yeah. Irish drummer, gorgeous human being. But it was hard because we were here and we were going to come back. And then we'd just gently stayed and we'd come back for holiday. and I've just been rolling with her education. It's so interesting that you're having this conversation with me because I'm in a place right now where we're also discussing what we want to do but also what our kids need

and it's a great advice to listen to kind of where they take you because they will let you know and really they are the most important thing right now. But I'm now at that place where I'm getting job offers for the first time that I'm really having to consider like what it means for them. Yes. And it seems like it's always the right choice, obviously, to put them first. But, like, I feel like even with my gut, like, I'm like, oh, this one doesn't feel right or that one does feel right. And that one does feel like...

And I like to follow that now. I really started to trust that. Yes. Oh, not at all. Hello. I'm very excited to be at your place right now. I'm good. Thank you.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. So, welcome in, guys. Hi. Do you want to tell us anything about the menu and what we should be made? We have a lot of literature in front of us. We have.

We got that. So this turn is going to take you to every part of Thailand to try all delicious fruit from every corner of the city, of the country. So let me start with our recommendation. Yes, please see. So we have the most famous here is going to be home of the rancino curry custard. The first one on the menu, it's a flavor bomb. And this is the photo of it, right? Yes, please.

Yeah, okay. And another one would be four is stir-fri, chive pancake, with eight Cameron sauce, chies. It's nice. I love chocolate. Okay. And for the meat, I would recommend

the deep fried, the bone brands, you know, the second picture on the menu. Okay, where's that on here? This one right here. Thank you. It's perfect to share. I'm going to get, if I, if you don't mind,

I'm going to get, what is the, whatever you want? What's the little, the chive, Yes. Yes. And the pumpkin curry.

Of course. That'd be fantastic, with ten. I'm going to try this. I'll try this, Hormok. You could have one of them. What did you call me? What did you call me? Sorry, I love that expression.

I stole that from Rupol's Dragwis. What did you call me? What did you call me? I still everything from Rukal's Drag, to be honest. So I'm going to have that. How did you say, Hormon? How did you say? Okay.

And then I'm gonna do, I kind of want Pad Sioux. Of course, that's the fried noodles. But it's good, it's good, isn't it? Yeah. So what kind of protein, would you like? I'll do chicken. Chicken, all right? Yeah.

Would you like anything else? Treatment wise? Oh, for drinks. Yeah, I almost forgot. I like the Good Morning Brooklyn, it's Moscow with guava puree. If you don't, if you, if you want to know. You're working tonight, I'm not. You go for it.

I might have to do the mottale. It's a lovely afternoon in Brooklyn. I'll take that. I am so cheap when it comes to recommendations. I love it. I'm going to do the victorious spritz, the mocktails. Of course. Yeah, that did look good.

I thought that best. I went, oh, it was a mocktail. But that's fine. I get overwhelmed with menus. That's a lot of literature. And it all looks incredible, and I cannot wait. Thank you so much, darling. Wait, I'm trying to remember, now I have,

now I'm trying to remember where we left off before. So trying to flow with my child's career has been the best thing. Well, and also, I feel like this must be something you understand because you were moved as a kid as a refugee when you were seven. And one didn't know that that was what was happening. Right. Because it's the parent's story. It's the parent story.

Yes, sorry, let me finish. No, no, no. I'm just, you know, making connections with you as a mother and you as a kid. I mean, like, I think, you know, there was probably something that you intuitively understood about. picking up and moving and starting over at a young age. It wasn't strange to me. Whereas I have got friends who go the idea of moving,

I'm always fascinating when someone has stayed in the same house for like 20 years. I don't understand that. But I'm in all of it. Because I go, what is that energy? Because even now as an adult, there is a sense of me going, oh, we've done this. I've done it now. Right.

I've done it. Okay, so where's next? And then the spirit starts looking for somewhere else. So to make my child move, I knew she'd be all right because I've had that experience. That's what I feel you're tying into it. Right. Do you remember that, so you, your parents were refugees from, where were they?

Well, they were in exile, so they had escaped apartheid South Africa in 68. I was born in 69. I don't care telling my age. I've just turned 56. That I love it. I love it. I'm not to turn 50 this year. Stop it.

That's a big one. Woo! And that was an affirmation. And that was an affirmation. Literally. The Cameron fell. Yeah. On your announcement.

How are you feeling? I feel good. I'm excited. I love. How was 40 for you? Because I think 40 is hard for men. I'm saying, I'm observing people down.

The thing is, when I turned 40, I was in the middle of modern family. And I was just like, I've got this career. I had a husband. Like, I was like, it's all settled. Yeah.

Now 50 is complicated because that chapter of my life is done. I'm artistically. I've had a great year between the national. The security is a different thing. I have kids now. It feels different, but exciting in a way that, you know, 40 wasn't.

Like, I feel like I have a lot more life in me. And it's that. I was literally speaking to this lady this morning and going, I love getting older because the vantage point now makes sense of my life. If that makes sense, it must be, yeah. It's like those kind of things

I look at it as a scene when you look back at how you were stitched in life if I used that metaphor. And when you're young, I go, I want to change this, I want to change that, I want to actually sit in your life. And this is what I love getting older. And I suppose I'm trying to say, as I'm saying this right now, to young people, I would like to go, please hold on.

Wherever the pain is, please hold on. I am so in belief that we are here each to serve each other. And you may not know what you're here for, but it literally could be you're the person who smiles at somebody one morning. And you've just changed their trajectory because they were feeling shit about themselves. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we return NOMA opens up about discovering theater as a child, and landing her Olivier Award-winning role. And I share a cringe story about me and Uma Thurman.

Okay, be right back. And we're back with more dinners on me. Did you have desire at a very young age to be an artist? No, but my mom would say something different. She says she remembers me about two or three. She said she caught me watching TV, and I just, I can't remember what the movie was But I just sucked in

I just, and then I just wanted to watch stories Not sports or anything like that But I just wanted to watch stories But I don't remember that Youth Theatre was my saving grace at 13 I always say that Thank God for my theatre You find a tribe

That's exactly what I always said It was my people Yeah, I found my people And school wasn't my people It was academia, I'm like, that's not good for me The competition I think I'm you reincarnated As a white gay man

know that shit happens. And I've always said, I know I'm a gay man in a woman's body. I really do. Forgive me, but it makes sense. We never know. Thank you. You never know. Oh, the afternoon, mescal.

Indeed, good morning, Brooklyn. Thank you. Good morning, Brooklyn. Thank you. That looks great. Yes, go on. But early on, you had to draw two stories. Yeah, but I didn't realize how much so, because I think stories were the safe space.

So when you take, where did it start? Actually, we were just doing, and my mum being a single mom, because at that point she left my dad and come to England. That's where we were in England. And I was seven, my sister was five. So let's say about 13, by that time, she was working. And that was the rare grace when I look back on how the world for refugees and immigrants and people are claiming asylum is now, especially in Britain,

the way it's going right now in America. When I look at Mama's story arriving with two kids in 1977, and then transposed it to 20 years later in 97, 30 years later in 2007. That exact same story, I really believe, and then you transposed it 20 to 30 years later, I would not be sitting opposite you right now because my mum had the lack of being able to work gently, we're in homeless family's unit for a little moment, but when she did, let's find workshops for you to do what she would do. She'd find out from people, there were always play structured.

there were plays to do games, to make things. It was always craft art. What did your mother do? What did she do was, I mean, I look at my mom, I'm just, the main career she had was a bookkeeper. But I suppose what my mother does, ultimately, she's a healer, and she's trying to heal her lineage of South Africa and all the things that went on for her story.

Yeah. I say this. It's really interesting that she ended up back in that place where she fled, at one point. Yeah, because she could. And I mean, but she lives in London. She lives in London. That's absolutely where she lives.

But it's about helping people back home. But what was interesting for that, she wanted her mum passed away years ago. And I met my grandmother for the first time when I was 33 years old for two weeks, which is extraordinary. Wow. But when there's a whole lot of healing,

and I think the indigenous communities, if I can put it that way, of South Africa, which she's a lineage of, with the San Pibo, Gossa, Zuli, all languages I don't speak at all and I don't know. But I am fascinated by it

because every country has a bit of magic in it. It has a bit of earth storytelling. So in terms of the storytelling she had to do right now was to clear the space for her mother to open it up for the next generation. That's the imperative that she had for herself in 78. And I find that fascinating. Yeah.

For every immigrant story, it's about assimilation into the bigger culture. Sure. And so, therefore, let's not shout, let's not undermine, we are here, we're a unit. And that makes you move in the world in a different way, maybe, when you look at yourself. It does. But fascinates me also with that is, you know, what needs to happen when you become an artist, too, because then it's also, you're talking about blending in and, like, not making too much noise, but as an artist, thank you. Yes, I'm going to come back to that.

Yeah, for sure. fried chive pancake. Oh, amazing. The chimes, the chimes, yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yep, yep, yep. And then a series of little hats. They really, I think the picture was making it, I don't understand. Lots of boobies. Oh my god, lots of boobies. Tits up darling. Tits up, darling. Container for the cover. Thank you very much. For the best taste, we recommend to just scoby-dub and all in one bite. All in one bite. Okay, so whole flavor hit. Is that what it is? Amazing.

Please enjoy. Thank you so much, lovely. Thank you. But what I was going to say is like when you're as an artist, you know, what you need to do, what your task to do is open yourself up. Yeah. And so it's really interesting, you know, you said you found theater around 13. Yeah, yeah.

You know, to have those formative years as a kid as a refugee, you know, maybe blending in a bit and keeping quiet. And then I'm so fascinated. Yes, exactly. I'm fascinated by that. discovery of self when you found theater as well as a and a core part of yourself and realizing oh i like this one i like this people no one's judging me on how i live because of course i would now look different right from the majority having grown up in a place where i was the majority

all the different countries i've got to try one of those it's the math it's the mathful thing get it that way um no this way use a spoon is it and the hit is gorgeous gorgeous. Okay, so I can't talk properly, man. Isn't that incredible? Flavor bomb. Yeah, flavor bomb.

Okay, that works. Delicious. Tits a hoy, that's great. Tits a hoi. That was extraordinary. I want to talk about Harry Potter because you brought it out. Okay.

And it is such an incredible moment in your career. I mean, well, to go It changed everything. It changed everything. But to go back a little bit, I mean, I didn't know that you had played Ruth Younger in Raisin' the Sun, which must have been such a huge moment for you. And it happened very early in your career, it seems.

Ish, yeah. But, you know, it was like kind of, it might be fair to say that it was kind of the first big, like, validation. I mean, you want to alleviate for it. Yeah, which I was extraordinary that I was even considered. Oh, this is the play that people talk about Raising the Sun. I'd never read it. Had you had never read. I was going to have.

I never read, but it was like an American classic. That's what I heard. And I got it. So many, I mean, I experienced Raisin' The Sun first by reading it. It was something that required reading in school. Yeah. And I've since seen productions of it. What was it like to come to that piece of writing from the inside, from like excavating a character within it?

I mean, I just read it on the page. And it's obviously not my story at all. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But it's a fucking human story. It's a human story. So that play, the creating of it, the making event, Ruth was so, for me, beautiful and so aligned in how I was feeling and so untethered in the world, but with this kind of structure of a life. But holding on to this young mum, I wasn't a mum then, with his husband, with dreams, but they're not grounded dreams.

And having to transpose, having a novella there as the African American also made me feel very good. grounded because there is a partner gang we have to absolutely honor this their emotional experience of playing her with just beautiful when you have actors like novella and Lenny James it's glorious I have to tell you a funny story

eat while I tell us I will do good and have more of this if you want so I did the Williams Tump Theater Festival in 2019 and I did a play by Best Bowl a new play by Best Will yes who's just that is it Liberation

she's coming up yeah yeah yeah yeah great playwright Yeah. Also in that season, Uma Thurman was doing a production of ghosts, the Ipsompley. And also, Robert O'Hara was directing a production of Raisin and the Sun with my good friend, Francois-Baptiste. And I, my publicist had a press, like a press release about the season of Williamstown. And she was like, would you just take a look at this really quick to make sure that it's okay? And it's like, I'm sure it's fine. I'm sure it's fine.

I'm like, it's whatever. It's like they're just announcing that. The season. And I thought, let me just take a look at it really quick. So I look at it. And I just want to remind you, it's me and the best we'll play

Uma Thurman and ghosts in Robert O'Hara's Raisin' The Sun. The headline of the press releases, Jesse Tyler Ferguson and Uma Thurman headline Raisin in the Sun. Fuck on. Fuck off. Stump it.

Stump it. Stop. Stop the process. Go. Oh, you had a look at it. Thank God, you have a look at it. And it was just... So I called, I was like...

Are you clear me? And they're like, it wasn't as it. It was like an intern. And I was like... Someone had one job. Someone had one job. Raisin on the sun. I mean, if you read it,

you can even know what raised in the sun is you would know that this does not track. Can you imagine? That's the meta production coming out of someone's asshole. Do you know what the fuck is that shit? Isn't that hilarious? That is very hilarious. Part of me,

Did you imagine that it had gone to press? Can you imagine? It was a press release. So it hadn't actually gotten to press yet. Oh, my God. Isn't that funny? Thank God, something said, have a look at that. Yeah.

Have a look at that, darling. You would have been torn down. I've only run with the Uma Thurman once since then, and I was like, did you know about this? And she's like, no, and I told her, she thought it was very funny. That is very funny. But it is a fuck-off. The ignorance of that. I know.

And literally, can't you read, can't you find out? I know, I know. Anyway. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. After the break, Noma tells me what it was like to originate the role of Hermione Granger in the play Harry Potter and the Curse Child in her late 40s and how she embraced this exciting moment in her career as a regular on prestige television. She gets to stare into Alexander Scarsgaard's eyes, you guys, and get paid for it.

Okay, be right back. And we're back with more dinners on me. With Harry Potter, which is such an, I mean, that was, I mean, Harry Potter was, it's obviously such a big IP. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I remember, I was very invested in those books. I remember resisting them at first because I was like, they're kids' books. And I'd see everyone reading them. Main on the tube.

I was like, and then to hear it on the radio. Yes. What is this story? It was every hair. And by the time the last ones came out, I was like the first person in line for those books. I was in. And then I watched the movies. And I, and so when the play came out, I was like, in my, part of me was like, okay.

Do they need to do another? Yeah, do they need to do another one. But what was so brilliant about it was it was these characters years later as adults. Yeah, yeah. And it was this beautiful. I mean, it is, it is a beautiful. It's still running. It's still running here in New York.

It's still running in London, yeah. But they've got the two-parter in London and one part now. Right. So I saw it when it was a two-parter, and it was so incredible. John Tiffany did such an incredible job. The music is unbelievable. It was one of the first plays to be nominated for Best Score, I think. Which was extraordinary.

Yeah, Image and Heap. Yeah, Image and Heap. One of the most stunning productions I've ever seen, my friend Sarah Highland who was Hayley Ed's daughter Ed plays Dumbledore

I think he just stopped playing it recently and I remember begging him to tell me how some of the stage magic was done and he wouldn't do it And that was a joy Yeah Yeah

Hashtag King the Secrets Oh my God But it was such an incredible production It was such a cultural moment Once I've finished Yes Okay now I'm going to watch it

Because I'd always been worried about the magic going, can they really not see the magic? Right. And then you were, because of your lights and above the line, so you did eventually go and sit in the audience and watch it. Yeah, and it was extraordinary, just because for me, the magic was extraordinary. The lighting was extraordinary. The creativity, the one dance, it's, and I was like, oh, I wish I was young so I could be

part of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I know, I'm going. I mean, I love it when you fan over things that you've done. I mean, it's, uh, it was just stunning. Yeah.

And, you know, you're casting as Hermione. was so brilliant and also interesting. Interesting. It caused a store amongst Harry Potter fans. I mean, it sort of reminds me of another piece of work that you got to be a part of with The Little Mermaid and how, you know, when Haley was cast as Ariel and there was an uproar about like, why is she black?

Well, the blackness thing, it's literally the cultural difference. And look, I can, in a weird way, the little mermaids say, oh, please, we're talking fish. Please. And I mean that with obviously respect to all fish, you know what I mean? It's like, it's okay. We can do all of it. Exactly.

Interestingly, I understood, and I felt that if I understood it before it here, that the fact that you're going to cast me, and look, my joy. That's Hermione. As Hermione, but also as the known of the actor, is that I'd been called into a series of workshops the year before. And yet, this is the story I'd, told myself, I'm too old and I'm too dark-skinned.

I'm going to go, they're going to use a mixed-race young girl. Because I could feel that in terms of conversations, what is the other in this world? And it's usually blackness is the other. And you could go any ethic demographic in that space. But the muggle child coming into this space, what does that look like? So totally changing it from there. Because I'm saying that because everyone who read the books before the films, you had your own version of Haman, you had your own version.

Well, then the movies. Yes, and then those movies set those characters into place for all of us. And I remember my version of her, and my version of her was this freckled, buck-tooth, frizzy-haired, young white girl. But she was odd and quirky. And then you listen to different people going, oh, my God, we all had such different versions of her. So coming in to do the play of those workshops, John Tiffany, going, we're going to be exploring that part. Because also he, I loved his inclusivity. I loved, and there was just, for me, just workshops

and the different people who were coming in. But the core of the story, as most stories are, is whiteness that we have all been told. And again, I will say a lot of things have changed in the last five years about how we all see each other in relationship to each other. And this moment in time that's happening right around the shit show is absolutely making us have to push and go,

who am I? And that's why I will always go back to the soul thing. Who am I as a human being that I can let these things happen? Who, what, what, um, negation of self and humanity do I have to put in place so that I can say no to these types of people? So it's interesting that the Muggle world and in the most extreme, the, the Malfoy's, the most extreme, uh, wizets, there is that kind of, we don't like people who are not like us. So what J.K. wrote was this most extraordinary fairy tale for all.

of us at that time. Absolutely. Oh my god, that does look amazing. That is amazing. Fabulous. Oh, that's comfort food all the way. Thank you so much. Thank you so much, darling.

Brilliant. Gorgeous. And then after that, at the end of that workshop, I remember the reading going, okay, and I've said this before, I remember going, well, whoever gets this, they better fucking enjoy it. They better enjoy it every second

event because this is fantastic. Just before the reading and there's Colin Callender, Jake O'Reilly and Sonia Friedman, our producers, everyone involved and it was the most beautiful rehearsal room because it was having to keep the secrets. And at the end of that space, John Tiffany and Sonia Friedman

came up to me and said, you've got it. And I literally glitched in my head. Huh? Huh? Uh? Because I'd absolutely let it go and put it, it's going to be somebody else's gig. That's what I remember. All I remember doing was like, So I'm going to enjoy it.

We do the reading. And I'm going, of course I'm going to smash it and make people laugh. Because I don't care. That thing is, I have no investment in it. And that's another cliche of this life. The things you let go off, don't hold on too tightly, go, okay, we're here for you. What's interesting to me about what you just said is that the duality of knowing that you're going to smash it, but also knowing that you're not going to get it.

And that's the story I told myself, because I just assumed. As protection. Yeah. Yes. Yes. I think that's absolutely true. When I look at it now, it's like, no, I needed to do that protection because the story I had told myself was, I'm too old and I'm too dark.

And the way the world does is it's always, it's, I'm just going to dive in with them. I think there was, forgive me if I've miscreated it horribly, but Tandy, Tandy We're Newton. It was an article something years ago about realizing that she was the acceptable face of blackness for Hollywood. And I remember going, because I think it was a big realization for her. that moment. I was like, that's it. And when you understand that as an artist, you start playing, you start offsetting yourself

for disappointment by telling yourself stories, if that makes sense for an actress like me. Yeah. In my age. I think there's a lovely responsibility that you're holding with being aware of where we are in this time and where you sitting in this industry and what, you know, your presence in certain projects means.

I think it doesn't have to be more than that. Just being aware of it and like clocking it and knowing like... And not taking for granted. That's what I'm trying not to do. I think that's what it was that you've actually unpacked that for me right now. Is that I don't want to take anything for granted. And in that moment I'm going, am I taking this stuff for granted? Right. Because that's going to shift. Right. Who knows with this business? Like you say, you don't know with this. Never know. No. And that's the joy, isn't it? That's what that 13 year old kid went, oh, where am I going to come in from? What dress am I going to wear? My favorite day in any show.

It's tech, the first day of tech, because it's the first day. I love rehearsals and tech. It's the first day you see costumes. You see every other department, and the director has to hand it over to the tech team to run the show. Yeah. And I love that. And then you can sit and watch bits that you'll never see again from that moment. Yeah.

Yeah. So get very romantic about that. I love MurderBot. I started watching, obviously, because Alexander came on the show, and I got to get a screener. And so I only had the first two episodes available. odd little thing. I remember that wasn't this odd little thing.

What did you think when you, because, I mean, explain the premise a little bit in your words. In my words, they're based on these books by now I totally acknowledge the great Martha Wells

called The Murder About Diaries. I did not know there were books when I got the job. Because Paul and Chris White is these amazing and wonderful directors. Oh, about a boy

in American Pie. I've still never seen American Pie. But I finally watched about a boy when we were filming murder, but I went, oh, I get it. So the experience of making the show was from the first day, I was like,

I have fucking lucked out with his people. As an actor doing TV and film, and then I get the first, it's extraordinary. Alexander is extraordinary. For me, those last two episodes with him and David Esfalcher, and I just go, pooh. But watching Sabrina, actually, Tatiana, Tamara, all of us make story and share that space.

All good people. All really good people. And then to watch the edited versions, I'm going, I have no idea. What I had in my head was a totally different thing because I went, I don't know what this is. I have never seen anything like this. And it's a sci-fi comedy,

but low-key kind of version of that and it's holding on to this energy. What I do know, working on that gig, every time I watch Alex work, it's like watching Nicole Kidman for the first time when I was doing the undoing. You know you're doing scenes with them. And you go, oh, fuck, it's my line.

It's my line. Yeah. You get caught up. Oh, no. Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah. I'm so sorry.

It's like, I'm like, I'm breaking up. It's a greatest, it's a greatest honor when someone you're up. Yeah. Yeah. It's glorious. Yeah. I love being in awe of other actors. So I was in awe of Alexander.

I was in awe of David Esmelcher. I was in all of my crew. And then this odd little thing comes out. And I have no idea what it is. And it's 25 minutes per episode per week for 10 weeks. for 10 weeks. And then by the time we go, oh,

because I need, I realized I needed to see all of them to paste together. And then by the time I got to the last two episodes, I fucking said a text message, Sporland Chris, going, fuck me,

that was beautiful. Yeah. Because you have to go on a journey. Yeah. I like that the form is new for me. Yeah. And I am a creature of Herbert, but I had to go,

okay, I have no idea what this is. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I adore it. I adore it. I feel that way all the time.

I mean, when you take a leap of faith, then, you know, you don't know what it's going to be. And it's a great privilege to be able to be a part of things like that that also unfolds slowly. And that also surprise you. I mean, there's so many times what I feel like, you know, obviously I felt this way during Modern Family for 11 years.

But like, you know, you find stability in the familiar. And like it becomes like, oh, this is a person. These are the pants I'm putting on every day. It's sometimes fun to like put the pants on, but not. know what the full outfit is until the very end you know and then the not the full outfit is the other actors who come in that day and you go oh we're going to be doing that yeah yeah yeah yeah love that feeling um i mean how has it been as an actress now in your 50s with this moment and this incredible kind of a new chapter of work i loved every second of it and i think also that

sense of being an older mum plays into that and that journey from 37 to 47 those first 10 years ago those were hard because within that I split up from a relationship that had been from 19 through to 14 we were going to be there together and this child arrives and I go oh no there's a whole different world to be had life life life life happens and you're out I promise you before harry potter this is the story I told myself I will always be a supporting actor in british theatre I will never do any lead past but damn I'm going to do it it well. And if I can get to work at the National, at the Royal Shakespeare

Company, at the Royal Court, at the Donmar, at the Amida, at all these little touchpoints, if I can just have those experiences, I'm good. And then Harry Potter arrives in my 47th year and I'm like, what the fuck? What the fuck? Again, she's supposed to be younger.

All these stories, one tells oneself. And then the truth is, when I look back on earlier days, I had set it up. But I didn't realize I'd set it out. Because I'd always go, oh, I can't wait to be an older actor. But I was like, oh, it's going to happen somewhere in the future.

Because somehow, even if I'm just a supporting actor, I'll be able to have a house eventually. Because as a theatre actor, you're not earning money to get that mortgage. You know what I mean? But if I can work towards that, it's going to be in my old age. I fucking love being at this age and feeling that it's all new. And it has been the last eight years. It's nine years.

It was 2016 when we first did the show in London. Play Potter, yeah. Yeah, and it's, yeah, 9, 10 years since the rehearsals. But I am a little kid inside. And sometimes I have to remember I've gotten older women spotting. Turn around me. But I love fun. I love lightness.

I love... Because then you can focus on this shit, do I mean? Have fun. Don't take yourself seriously. Take the work seriously. All those clichés are true. and therefore why do you pull in people? Why do you have this?

Why am I sitting here next to you right now having dinner with you and when that came through from my PR people God bless you Luke Oz and Rosie Oh my fucking God I was like shut the fuck up I love that shit You never know

but that sense of manifestation if I can get everyone to do it a bit younger than I did but there are also different stories for all of us because so that thing I'm going am I going to be the only black people

person in all these shows. No, no, that's an experience you're having right now. I'm an older woman. That's an experience I'm having right now. I can't wait to be Jessica Tandy. How old was she when she won the Oscar? I'm not saying that's going to happen to me, but there is something about that life.

You fucking started off the street car named Desire and then look at that. And we didn't know who you were because Vivian Lee took the film part. And that's what film does across theatre. It does a different story. and it goes to the masses in a different way. So when people had a problem with my version,

seeming version of Hermione, it's because film had told a story, and that's the power of film, the narrative that you can give it to the world. That was a huge learning curve within that, the optics of what that could be. And then I realized that the optics of me being an older woman, and being an older black woman,

who's in the late 40s, having this experience was extraordinary. Yeah. Was extraordinary. And I really leaned into that because I realized, I've known this, but I've actually finally fundamentally understood about myself. My archetype is mother. My archetype is nurture.

I was never going to be Aphrodite, but I'm here, do you know what I'm Yemen? I'm all those, you know what, those versions of the mother energy. But I finally understood that of myself. And I think when I was young, I was like, but can't I be the sex? Oh, I'll never be the sex one. Oh, no, no, no, no. we have to trust oh excuse me

without sounding simplistic I get emotional about I love life and I'm taking it from a kid who didn't want to be here at 1516 and I can see so many people who don't want to be here because there's so much fucking fear I am so cognizant of the fact that in my late 40s

now in my mid-50s, I've had the most extraordinary seven years of work. I could not have, I did not see this when I was young. I love what you were saying about being at that very tender, vulnerable age of your teens and wanting things for yourself and being vulnerable and being in a place where it's hard to look too forward to the future. Even though you have so much life ahead of you, at that age, it's very hard to see past the day that you're in. Absolutely.

And also just what you said about dream big, but know that it could be bigger. I think it's really important. That was huge for me. That was huge. Yeah. And a space does open up. Yeah.

I bet you once you've got modern family. Yeah. All of a sudden, your dreams changed. Yeah. Even just how am I going to live? I can live in a different way. And that's what Harry Potter gave me. Yeah.

Arriving in New York, you go, oh, I can afford to you. give my child an education that wouldn't have happened two years ago it's that sliding doors of life and so therefore put it out there put it out there yeah wow

you're having I feel like you're on the brink of another like whole chapter with your daughter going to college and it's it's gonna be I'm really excited to see where things take you thank you for doing this

thank you for this you have no idea it's just bed my soul mate you have to take all this home I'm so taking all this time because the kid is going to be so excited when I get back. This episode of Dinners On Me was recorded at Sook in Fort Green Brooklyn. Next week on Dinners On Me, I know her as my girlfriend in the 1997 production of On The Town, and you know her as Big Boo on Orange is a New Black.

It's my longtime best friend, comedian and actor, Leah Delaria. We'll dive into how she started singing in jazz clubs at just seven years old, her groundbreaking appearance on the Arsenio Hall show as the first openly gay comedian and countless stories from our 30-year friendship, including one that involves Vanessa Williams and an embarrassing group chat mishap. And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen,

you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinners On Me Plus. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad-free. Just click Try Free at the top of the Dinners On Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinner's On Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions.

It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf. Sam Bear engineered this episode. Hans Dale She composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tamika Balance College.

Blasney and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.