Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Orville Peck

Episode Date: April 9, 2024

Musician Orville Peck joins the show. Over deli classics, Orville tells me how a South African kid grew up obsessed with country music, why country is actually a global genre, and we bond over our love of “RuPaul’s Drag Race.” This episode was recorded at Nate ‘N’ Al’s in Beverly Hills, CA. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

In the fall, I went back to Albuquerque, New Mexico, where I grew up, to show my sons, Beckett and Sullivan, the international hot air balloon fiesta. Even though I grew up there going to this fiesta, it just never loses its magic. And it's such an amazing and beautiful tradition. I love it so much. But sometimes when I'm away on trips with my family,

it feels impractical to have my house just sitting there vacant. I realized that when I'm away on trips with my family, it feels impractical to have my house just sitting there, vacant. I realize that when I'm away, that's actually the perfect time to Airbnb it. I don't have to be someone who hosts all the time. I can do it around my travel schedule and host when I feel like it. And I can take the extra cash and use it toward more fun activities with Beckett and Sullivan, like a weekend trip to the San Diego Zoo or, I don't know, toward a romantic staycation with Justin, who doesn't love date night, right? I feel like I've cracked the code here.

How did I just realize this? Anyway, thank you. Thank you for letting me share my genius idea with you. That's very kind. Your home might be worth more than you think. Find out how much at airbnbnb.com slash host. Hi, it's Jesse. Today on the show, a musician who blows me away

with his music, his style, and his mysterious persona, it's Orville Peck. I think I've gotten rid of like 5% of my imposter syndrome at this point, so it's like, I'm perpetually oblivious. My manager and I always laugh, even when I'm like in full mask and everything. I'll be like, everyone's looking at you. And she's like, they're looking at you. This is Dinners on Me and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson.

How excited was I to meet Orville Peck? Extremely. I was extremely excited. Was I excited to see if he was going to arrive to dinner without his signature mask that has kept his identity almost completely hidden since he hit the music scene almost six years ago? Yes, yes I was. But truthfully, I was incredibly eager to meet him because I have been such a massive fan of his for the past six years.

He has opened my mind to the country music genre in ways I could never have imagined, and I have been waiting in great anticipation for him to announce his next album. Orville is mysterious while also being completely authentic. He hides a piece of himself so that he can pour more authenticity into his striking deep baritone and vulnerable songwriting. As I waited, I was keeping my eyes peeled for a tall man cloaked in a mask and a cowboy hat just like I had always seen him in photos. Finally, a friendly and assuming handsome man in a baseball hat approached the table

and unmasked said, Hi, I'm Orville. Hi, how are you? I'm so good. It's so good to meet you. I'm such a big fan of yours. Thank you. I brought Orville Peck to Nate & Al's Delicatessen, which has been a mainstay in Beverly Hills

since 1945, serving up classics like matzo ball soup, pastrami on rye, potato latkes. Just like Orville Peck pulls from classic country, Nate and Al's brown leather booths and charismatic servers are a total throwback to an earlier time. Okay, let's get to the conversation. How are you doing? I'm great, I'm like crazy busy. Good.

Yeah. That's good. It's good. I'm just finishing a duets album. That's incredible. Yeah. So the first one that's out is with Willie Nelson. He's like one of your heroes, right?

Yeah. And he's sort of like the, I don't know, one of the two like patron saints of country. It's like him and Dolly, basically. You know, I have such a, I guess, sordid relationship with country music that if you don't mind, I'm going to share it with you. Please. Because I feel like you'll have some good insights. I was raised in Albuquerque, New Mexico, and my parents were big country music fans, and

we would, you, and we would mostly go to the rodeos for the halftime show. That's when they would roll out these country music legends. And so I got to see Crystal Gale and Barbara Mandrell and Willie Nelson. Amazing. Yeah, yeah. And I feel like, at the time, I just felt like this is the music that my parents listened to, not into it.

Also, I think for me, it felt like a very like conservative white person genre. Yeah, and you know what? In a lot of people's minds, it is still that. And I mean, the people you just mentioned in their own minds, they believe that country has to be that, which is crazy. But yeah, so I think a lot has changed, minds they believe that country has to be that, which is crazy.

But yeah, so I think a lot has changed, but also in some people's minds not much has changed with them. Right. I mean, I guess it's like the same with Albuquerque. Like I go back and I see how progressive it is now. I still am sort of rooted in the past of like what I experienced there with time and with sort of like the evolution of what country music is and obviously me just becoming more of a fully formed person

I've fallen in love with. Well, I sometimes don't even realize it's country music until I'm like, why am I so into this? And you're a great example of someone that kind of brought me in further with your music. And Brandi Carlisle, obviously, Lil Nas X, obviously, but even Lil Nas X is like, oh, that's country?

For me, what I love about it though is the genre has opened up a bit. What I love that you're doing specifically is you've embraced kind of the throwback of country. Like, it's the retro version of it that maybe was even the stuff that I was even more resistant to. Exactly. I mean, you're right. And I think, I get this, I hear this sort of a similar experience quite a bit from people. And like,

I grew up in South Africa, like I didn't know, which is, you know, we have a lot, there's country music there, but it's not very big. I didn't grow up in the South, I didn't grow up anywhere where that was a big part of my culture. So my relationship to country, especially when I was little, was so, I was so enamored by it. And it wasn't attached to any sort of trauma, which I think a lot of, especially queer people,

or any marginalized person, if they grew up in the South and that kind of thing, country kind of stands for X, Y, and Z of things that are probably not accepting of them, not welcoming of them, not friendly towards them. I often meet a lot of queer people, a lot of maybe they're not a cis white male, maybe they're a person that's not white, whatever it might be, they're marginalized in some way, but they grew up

in like Arkansas or they grew up in the South or they grew up wherever around and embedded in this culture of country music and they say like, you know, you're the first time I've been able to embrace where I come from, this culture that I never felt attached to or I never felt connected to and they're felt connected to, and they're like, you know, they say like, it's kind of like them saying thank you for like letting me also now indulge in. Participate in this thing that's part of my history, right. A thousand percent, and like that makes me feel so good.

Cause it's not, you know, quote unquote my culture, but that I grew up with, but I'm so happy cause I have such a love of country. I'm so happy that I get to make everyone feel included in it, because everyone should, you know what I mean? Yeah. So you grew up in Johannesburg, right? How did country music filter to you there?

Well, I was obsessed with cowboys growing up. My grandfather was like a sheriff and he rode a horse. So I just thought he was like a cowboy, and I used to watch the show called Chi- He was. Yeah, exactly. I used to watch the show called shy he was yeah I still watch the show called Cheyenne. Yeah, she was like, you know, like an old Western and I loved the Lone Ranger Obviously and like I just loved any Cowboy figure like I loved like Indiana Jones like anyone that was sort of like antihero like

You know kind of that spirit I always was obsessed with that as a kid. And then the combination of sort of that pastiche love of cowboys with then discovering Dolly Parton, who I always say, like, I thought she was I thought she was like Elvira or like Peewee Herman. Like, I didn't realize she was a real person. I thought she was like a character. But that's because that era of country, especially, you know, like 60s Dolly kind of era was so about,

it was almost like golden age of Hollywood. Where like, if you were like the horror actor, you like lived that every day, you know what I mean? Like that became your whole brand and identity. It's funny, I played in all kinds of bands and made all types of music that was never country music, but everyone always used to laugh that I was always listening to country.

And I was playing in punk bands. I know that you had a history of playing in punk bands. You were a drummer, right? Yeah, I was a drummer, yeah, yeah, yeah. And a theater actor as well. Uh-huh, yeah. I mean, Dolly Parton's a great example, because she, for me, was the one outlier. I didn't love the genre, but Dolly Parton's a great example, because she, for me, was the one outlier.

I didn't love the genre, but Dolly Parton, 100%. And I would watch her Christmas specials, and she had that. What was the special where she sang, I will always do this? It was Dolly Parton's show, right? Well, she's on the Porter Wagner show. Exactly.

And that kind of even furthers my point. Everyone loves Dolly. There's so many people who would say, I don't like country, but I do like Dolly Parton. And I think that's, you know, of course she's an incredible singer. She's got some of the most touching, beautiful songs in any genre. But I think the thing that actually endears her to people so much is that she makes everyone feel welcome and included

and she's got absolutely zero sense of judgment. She's sort of like a drag queen, you know? Like it's sort of like there's no judgment, there's no criticism, there's no, you can just be yourself and, you know, any single person could walk up to Dolly Parton and I know that she would probably like give him a hug and say like, nice to meet you.

And you just, everyone just like intrinsically knows that about her you know and I think that really invites someone in and that's why it's like no surprise to me that you know Dolly is a lot of people's safe space for country or like intro into country because she makes it feel so welcome. She's also from what I understand I've never well I met her so briefly yeah I was just like actually I met never, well I met her so briefly, but I was just like, actually I met her, the time I met her, this was very overwhelming, she was sitting

with Lily Tomlin and Jane Fonda, and it was at the Emmy Awards, and they were reuniting for nine to five, and everyone was losing their fucking minds. That's so wild. I just remember not knowing what to do with myself, I was sitting like two rows behind them. But Dolly, from what I understand,

is also, she keeps a lot of her life extremely private. Yeah, she's superb. Exactly. I mean, there's folklore of does she have tattoos or not tattoos? She covers all those things up. And there's so many legends about her. I know, right?

Which I also love, because she is a very open person, it seems. She feels very accessible person, it seems. Like, she's very... She feels very accessible, but at the same time, there's pieces of her that she's like, that's not for you. You don't feel like you're not getting a full version of her. And, you know, I think that, like... That is the beauty of that era of country, and she sort of, like, maintains that so well,

is that there is this element of you know I really hesitate to say character because I think with like with me for instance I think the misconception about me is like a lot of people think I'm playing a character and like you know and yes there is an element of sort of character I suppose like but no more no more so than I would say I felt like David Bowie did or Grace Jones does or even Elton John does to an extent. I think there's a theatricality and like, I don't know, a persona. Like I mean, Dolly has a persona, you know, and I think she, and that's exactly it.

She knows what is like front-facing and what people are going to see. And then she has a private life of who she is, you know, behind closed doors which I think is completely valid and I think we have so much accessibility now where it's like now we're constructing the idea of authenticity and then someone like me or I don't know, Dolly, you know, people who come at their respective genre with like a flair and a theatricality and also a mandate to write authentic songs and touch other people with their art and whatever. Like, you know, just because I wear a mask and maybe I wasn't born with my name, you know,

like, I don't know if that should nullify my authenticity. I think there's people out there who are like, pretending to be authentic in the pop world especially, that I think it's like the furthest thing from authentic. You know what I mean? You're very right, I think. Well, let's back up a little bit, because I haven't even mentioned the mask. But like, explain to me sort of the origin story.

I mean, when you first said The Lone Ranger, I was like, oh, of course, like that's. Yeah. Well, I think my, growing up in South Africa, I had this obsession with cowboys, and you know, like, there's a photo of me, I think I'm like eight years old, in my living room as a kid, I'm wearing a cowboy hat, and I have one of my dad's handkerchiefs around my face,

tied around my, just with my eyes showing. Because in my mind, I would always watch these Westerns, and all the cowboys were like bandits and outlaws, and so they were all covering their face with handkerchiefs. It's just like what I associated cowboys as, right? When I decided that I wanted to finally start making country music, this genre that I'd loved for so long, I looked at it and I was like, what do I feel like I want to see in country?

Like what's missing from the current, at that time and still current, sort of landscape of country. And you know, very much so, I mean, especially more so, like, you know, when, six years ago, when I first started doing this project, it was dominated almost exclusively by like straight white men singing about trucks, like literally, you know, and the music was like music was like, to my ear, in my personal opinion, the furthest thing from country. It just sounded like pop music with Southern accents. You know what I mean?

And not even good pop music at that. Just like shit music, really. And I kind of looked at it and I was like, I didn't even think like, oh, I want to go and disrupt, or like, I was just like, I just don't want to be boring. Like, I just want to do something. That's my husband. I know, nice to meet you.

I was like, who are you lazy at? I was like, I just want to do something interesting and artistic. And I mean, like, it almost like you did a reset for in a lot of ways too, because, you know, your, your music is such a throwback and it's such a kind of a reset of like this is like we're bringing you back to what country was 50 years ago. But lyrically, you're talking about very progressive things, you're talking about love that you've had and heartbreak that you've had and it's through the vessel of you. So yeah, I could see where you were disruptive, but also I think there's something really nostalgic

about what you brought to it. Well, I mean, thank you. I mean, that's what I feel like. You know, it's like, I feel like I make a very sort of classic form of the genre of like, you know, I make it my own and it does have a modern feel to it and a different thing to it, but like, I, 100%, like my biggest influences are mostly from 60s and 70s country, you know And so I was always like baffled at first when people would be like, well, that's you know, he's not country and I'd be like

really like Daniel nice to meet you. Nice to meet you. How we feeling hungry. I'm hungry. I have not I'm always hungry I'm so I'm like a I have not eaten at all. I'm always hungry. I'm like a, I'm a professional eater so I can just make a very quick decision. Perfect, perfect guys. How can I help? Any questions? Okay, I kind of want to do chicken tenders.

Chicken tenders, absolutely. Yeah, I can start with that. And then I want to grill cheese too. Grill cheese, all right. I'm about to put it right away, grill cheese. Can I get the wrap without the sides so we can just keep sharing what we have? Definitely, definitely. I can do the wrap for you right away.

Cool. Okay, let's get a salad as well. We can do onion rings. Onion rings are good. Boom. Thank you. So gentlemen, I have said it. Neither one of us wanted to get a salad.

That's what we came down to. Besides the food, any drinks, besides the water that I can offer. Black cherry. Regular cherry. I kind of want that. I want a black cherry soda. Black cherry soda. Same. Black cherry, regular cherry.

Yeah. I kinda want that. I want a black cherry soda. Black cherry soda. Same. Black cherry soda, two black cherry sodas. Thank you. Will be broke right away.

Thank you so much, Daniel. Awesome, thank you so much. See you in a second, thank you. Appreciate it. There's something sort of cute about him. Yeah, it's very sweet. Wait, so wait, where were we? I don't know, I can't remember.

We were talking about, oh, oh, like just the genre, sort of my position in the genre, I suppose. Like, yeah, that was the thing, is like when I first, I think I came in sort of with like a, well, I almost said foolish ambition, but I think it wasn't necessarily foolish because it seemed to work out well. So maybe, but like, you know know I just went in sort of guns a

blazing thank you and sort of assuming I wasn't gonna hit any thank you too much opposition except for maybe the fact that I wasn't from like Nashville I wasn't from the genre like that's where I kind of thought I was gonna have to do the most legwork. Right. Turns out, obviously wearing a mask was an issue for people, being gay was an even bigger issue for people. It's so funny, I never sort of assumed that that would be the distinction for people of whether that I'm country music or not.

It's so bizarre. And it's the same thing, it's kind of the bizarre, you know? And it's the same thing, like, it's kind of the tailors all the time, but it's the same thing. It's like the argument with Beyonce's album right now. You know what I mean? Everyone's like, they move the goalposts so much. Like, comments will say,

well, she's from Texas, but she's from Houston. That's not like real Texas. So you're like, well, what the fuck does that mean? And then, you know, or it's like, well, you can't just be from Texas and be country. It's like, okay, so which is it? Those are two different thoughts. Or it can't be like, well, you can't just put banjo

on a song in its country. It's like, okay, but then the next comment will say, there's not enough instruments on this. It's like, okay, well, let's just call it what it is. Like, she's black. And that's really what you're saying is, she's not country because she's black. Like, and all these other inconsistent things are just excuses to why you don't want to welcome this person

into what is a gatekeeping kind of genre for some people. You know what I mean? And that's the same thing with me. It's like, you know, I just worked with Willie Nelson, for God's sake. Like, all of the old country icons that I look up to, they all love me, and they all are like, want to work with me, and they all love me, and they all are like, wanna work with me, and they all embrace me, and they, you know, and it's like, it's like, none of them question whether I make country music or not.

It's only these people that have an issue with who I am, not what I do. It's interesting, I do feel like there is, country music can be a genre that's very protective of itself, but at the same time, I think that, you know, like I watched your Apple series, My Kind of Country. Oh, amazing.

Which, you know, I love so much because what it was doing is bringing in people from all these different cultures to perform for a country music competition. And your team that you had, had two people from South Africa. You had an Indian woman on it. There was a non-binary person from Northern California. There was a group called the Banjo. The Congo Cowboys.

Congo Cowboys. Yeah, they're so good. Who embraced their culture in a beautiful way through the music of country. And it really was in a beautiful way through the music of country. And it really was such a beautiful demonstration of that. This genre is for everyone, you know. Well, and you know, the irony is it's from everyone because, you know, the banjo is an

African instrument. It was brought over by slaves. It was not an American instrument by any whatever people think American is. The pedal steel is Hawaiian You know the fiddle and all that stuff was brought in from like Irish and Scottish settlers who used to watch all the cattle You know in the pioneer days, and that's why there's yodel Hiccups and all those like that kind of just end that's in country music sing in country singing like So sort of like Slim Whitman all that stuff that's all from the Irish and Scottish settlers that used to sing to the cattle at night

and that's actually what influenced that kind of like sound within country music I mean it's such a it's it's had contributions from every corner of the globe and which is you know America's had contributions from every corner of the globe you know and like I think it's very short-sighted and myopic to believe that, you know, country music is made for and made by and intended to be enjoyed by, like, you know, cis white people from the South. It's, you know, those people may want everything in the world to be intended to revolve around just that, I think. And the reality is far, far different. Right.

Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Orville tells me about his life pre-pony, and we get into the pros and cons of his decision to wear a mask. Okay, be right back. Have you ever been trying to watch your wallet but miss the excitement of eating out? With Factor, you can get restaurant quality meals but for way less than the cost of takeout. Choose from a weekly menu of more than 35 options which includes premium ingredients like filet mignon, shrimp, truffle butter, broccolini, and asparagus. You can also tailor it to your dietary needs with keto and calorie smart, protein plus. There's also vegan and vegetarian options as well. Just two minutes in the microwave and voila!

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And I will be really honest, like you came to me as someone I was like, oh, there's this queer country star. And he wears a mask and I was like, well, this all sounds very interesting to me. And so I listened and obviously all these other things that were being thrown at me melted away. And I was like, it's just great music.

And he's a great songwriter and an incredible voice. But you were presented to me first off as a gay country star that wears a mask. Which, listen, my whole career has been I'm a gay actor. I'm really just an actor. Actor, yeah, exactly. But you seemingly came out of nowhere for me. I'm interested in knowing a little bit

like what that sort of origin story is. Just, I mean, you spoke about it a little bit, but just like the name and the mask and like really sort of the look that you developed. And then also then what it was like once you presented it to the world, like kind of stood back and like said, okay, I've given this thing to the universe.

Like, and then it sort of was accepted and you were shrunk into it. It's been a bizarre, you know, I would say it's been an extremely bizarre five years to say the least. On one hand, I feel still like everything happened in the blink of an eye and it was kind of crazy. But you know, on the other hand, yeah, I mean,

I've been a performer since I was like 10 years old. I was a ballet dancer for like 12 years professionally. I played in punk bands. I mean I've been touring I don't know if it's 18 or 19 years this year. That's how long I've been a touring musician for. Almost two decades. You know I think this project was the culmination and combination of all of that stuff I had done and been interested in. You know, it's a little bit theater, it's a little bit songwriting, it's a little bit... It's like all these little pieces of me and it makes up this thing that is entirely me, you know what I mean? And it took me for...

You know, because when I was an actor, it's funny, like, I was sort of a very unfulfilled actor. Because even though I worked and I did some really lovely stuff, and you know, I achieved, I was on the West End in London, I got to achieve some dreams of mine and stuff, I never, I never felt like I was showing up and being myself and being authentic. Like, I would show up to auditions, and maybe this is the curse of being a gay actor that I couldn't

overcome is I would show up to auditions and be like, okay, I have to appear as something other than myself to be employable or to be likable. So I'd be like, what am I auditioning for today and how do I appear as this? But not myself, anything but myself. So I really struggled with my identity, I guess, because I felt like I was never able to feel authentic and achieve that sort of walking in a room and just being your authentic self.

But yeah, so then I think once things started to come together and I was like deciding to make country music and I wanted to do it in this artistic way and kind of present it in this very specific kind of branding and way and artistry, I slowly started to realize like, oh shit, like all these things I did sort of separately trying to make work and make a career out of, like I can combine them all into this with like my full confidence for the first time.

How it exists, right? Yeah, and like, you know, it's started to be clear to me that it was that kind of key part of the puzzle that I'd been missing as an artist my whole life. And even though I'd been doing it for like my whole life I finally found a way where I felt really present and authentic and satisfied with with what I was doing as an artist you know I mean yeah I'm happy you had that I feel like very people get that I'm so grateful to it and it's funny like the second I found that I had

success so it's like you know it's just really it's cheesy, like the second I found that, I had success. So it's like, you know, it's just really, it's cheesy, but it really goes to show that like, you know, being yourself is sort of the best answer, you know? Yeah. What was that first album like for you to have it sort of be swept into that sort of excitement about you? And- I took a big gamble and it sort of be swept into that sort of excitement about you. I took a big gamble and swing sort of starting this project and making that album.

I was living in London. I just finished, you know, I was doing classical theater in the West End and stuff like that in London and I decided I didn't want to be an actor anymore and I missed making music. And I wanted to go and do country music. And so I moved to Canada, whereas that's where I went to high school and my parents lived there at the time still. And I moved back in with my parents. I mean, I was like in my mid-20s. How old am I now?

No, I was in my like late 20s. I worked three day jobs. I worked at two different coffee shops and a bar. I worked pretty much 24-7. Now we have the same day jobs. Yeah. I went back to square one of what I was doing when I was in my early 20s trying to be an artist.

I went back to keeping my head above water, trying really hard to start this new thing. I went and recorded Pony, which I'd written in my parents' two-bedroom apartment. I paid, God, I think it was like $600 to record the album, which at that time might as well have been $600,000, you know, like it was so much for me. I played pretty much everything on the album and then I started sending it out to indie record labels and basically just being like, hey, is this thing check it out or whatever and it got this like immediate response and Then you know the next question from them was okay great So when can we see you play and I was like well, I've got all these shows coming up

So, you know, I'll let you know and then I like decided at that point that you weren't wanting to Like you wanted to have this mask is a part. Yeah. Yeah, it was from the very beginning Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so that was already that concept of yeah, it came right away because I think I just wanted something different Mm-hmm, you know like I am a creative at the end of the day. I will always be that way. Thank you Starting with the chicken tenders right? Thank you Plates sure might not be great. Thank you Beautiful, thank you. Two share plates? Sure, might I?

That'd be great, thank you. But yeah, I sort of lied to the record labels and I said I had a band and I said I had all these shows and I had to go and scramble and get that together in like a month. Wow. Yeah. I like that you're queer side with the seat.

Uh-huh. Mine did too. The rest is coming up in a second. Thank you, thank you. I mean it really... The stats for the people who hate food sounds. You know, I remember when Modern Family first hit and it was just like this thing of like, okay, so now I sort of belonged to these people who love the show, which, you know,

it's lovely to have fans obviously, but like there were, you know, it's lovely to have fans, obviously, but like, you know, my anonymity was taken away, and, you know, I couldn't always get through a meal without someone coming over and interrupting. Running a talk. Yeah, and you know, it's a double-edged sword, because I've been on, first of all, I've been on the other end.

I've been around people I'm fans of, and I want to connect with them and let them know how much their work means to me. And, you know, at the same time, I was trying to just live my life and it was a complicated thing for me to navigate. It should be, by the way. Yeah, I don't know if it's not. Well, if it's not, it's like narcissism red flags.

100%. But what I'm curious about is how you have that same surge of attention, but you also are able to keep so much of your anonymity. And I mean, personally, I'm like, oh, God, it's genius. I wish I could have like... No, I haven't said that. Oh my God.

Oh my God. What have we done? Should I leave the first long earrings here and maybe the rest there? Okay. I don't know, I guess I'm trying to live vicariously through what it's like to be successful and have people enjoy you and then also be able to keep a big piece of yourself to yourself.

It's amazing. And you know what? It was never the intention because obviously my intention was I never dreamed that I would be kind of have the success that I've had ever. That was never what I ever thought it would become. So, you know, it wasn't my intention to remain, have an anonymous thing, but it's been a beautiful blessing. I mean, it's been really funny sometimes.

I've been out and heard a conversation about me right next to me. Amazing. I've was a, for a long time, I can't really anymore because now people recognize my tattoos a lot more But I used to watch the opening bands on my tour At my own shows like i'd go and like stand in the audience and just watch with the with the audience, which is so funny and Putting the mask on it allowed me a little bit of the I don't know if it was courage or the freedom in a way

it allowed me to be more myself than I was ever comfortable being just walking around in jeans and a t-shirt. You know? Really interesting. I know. I really truly attribute that, especially those first few years when I was really cracked down on just complete anonymity and really really, you know, it was, it was really helpful in a weird way.

Did it ever, I don't know, did it ever feel like it was a burden at the beginning to have to be so diligent about it? Oh my God, it was so annoying. I mean, it still can be. It's like, I mean, listen, like, there's times where I'm out at something, it's like, you know, I don't know, like a dinner gala type thing. And I'll turn to my boyfriend and I'll be like, I fucking wish I could take this mask

off so badly right now. Because I'm just like, hot. It's starting to feel like itchy on my face, like just like aggravating. I'm trying to eat and like, you know, I learned how to like figure out like braids to like, but it's just, it's a pain in the ass sometimes for sure. So Pony came out in 2019 and then, you know, the world shut down for a while.

I mean, I have a few questions about that. Just, first of all, what was it like to have such a big moment and then to have to sort of hunker down? But also, from what I understand, it was, you funneled a lot of that depression and pain into your new music. Yeah. Yeah, that was 100% right. I went through a really crazy breakup during the pandemic. I was in a very, very unhealthy and very unhappy relationship. Yeah, I used to tour at that time,

like 2019, I think I toured over 200 days out of the year. Yeah, so it was pretty serious. I mean, we were like legendary for how much we used to tour. It was just fucking ridiculous, you know. So I went from that to absolutely nothing. I had to literally get, when they shut down, when they were shutting everything down and they cancelled my tour, I had to get my manager to rent me an apartment because I didn't even have a home. Then went through this breakup and found myself just, yeah, completely alone with myself

for the first time in my life with no distractions of work. Yeah, so I wrote Bronco almost entirely during the pandemic. I think there was like one song that was written from before it, but actually everything else was written during COVID and mostly during actual lockdown. With your songwriting, do you tend to draw from truth in yourself? Always, yeah. I think I've only got two songs, maybe more than two now, but I've got only a handful of songs at most that are like sort of not about my life or something or whatever I graphically.

I'm obsessed with Bronco. I've been listening to it nonstop. I love it. It's my favorite one. But yeah, some people are pony purists. Well, I mean, pony is great. But I feel like for a sophomore album, it's, you know, that's usually where I think people are a lot more critical.

For sure. Especially the critics. Yeah. And I just feel like your trajectory only continues to go up and your songwriting is even more nuanced and beautiful and heartbreaking. And obviously the sound that you were able to achieve, you could tell that you're coming off of success

and having toured and learned a lot. But it's such a great piece of art. And I just really, I'm really taken by it. There's a song that I'm especially obsessed with, Let Me Drown. I think it's gorgeous. Thank you. Would you want to share what that song means?

Yeah, that song's very much about that relationship I mentioned. Not to get like heavy into attachment theory or anything, but I tend to be a more anxious type which is probably not a surprise to anyone who knows my music. But I think in that relationship I had given up, by the time it ended, I had given up so much of myself. I didn't even know there was really nothing left. And I was working myself to death. It was a crazy time. I was working myself to death.

I was drinking myself to death. I was so unhappy. And I was giving up every part of myself to somebody else. And so that's what that song is about where I think I got to a point where I just felt like I was, you know, not to be dramatic, but I really felt like I was just sort of like out at sea and you know, I had like the last struggle of trying to kind of kick and swim and I really felt like I was just sort of like out at sea and you know, I had like the last struggle of trying to kind of kick and swim and I just felt like, fuck it, like just let me drown.

Yeah, I don't know what else to do, you know? Yeah, that's kind of what that's about. Beautiful, beautiful song. You know, play it at birthday parties. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's it. I feel like it should be overdubbed. It's like that scene in Titanic where he's clinging to the door and he's just like so tired. He's like,. I feel like it should be overdubbed. It's like that scene in Titanic

where he's clinging to the door and he's just like so tired. He's like, just let me go around. Exactly. But it's, I mean, I love when pain can be the catalyst for such great art too. I mean, the fact that you have that as an outlet is really, I don't know.

I thank you for sharing that because it's, it's a great song. It's a fantastic album. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back Orville tells me, despite his popularity, why there still is a ways to go in terms of acceptance in the broader country music community. For example, we get into why you don't hear his music on country music stations. Okay, be right back. Don't you just love it when someone looks at you and says, hmm, something's different about you.

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upset that you're not more, that you're not played more on, you know, country music stations. Is that something that's not happening? I didn't even, I don't listen to country music stations, so is that- Yeah, it's sort of, um, country music is, it sort of operates on its own terms just entirely. Unlike other genres, Nashville has very specific, I don't want to necessarily call them rules, but there's very specific rings to kiss and avenues to go down in order to have mainstream success in the eyes of Nashville mainstream radio, Top 40 radio. to go down in order to have mainstream success in the eyes of Nashville mainstream radio,

Top 40 radio. Right. And for better or worse, probably for better, sometimes for worse, I am, I hate being told what to do, I can't stand authority, and I have a very petty and childish need to do exactly what I'm, the opposite of what people want from me.

Yeah. So it's just something I never wanted to do. I never wanted to go and kiss anyone's ass and pretend to be something I wasn't in order to get on, you know, and that's, I'm sure some people don't have to do that. I don't want to generalize, but I know that that's what I was gonna have to do and I just didn't want to generalize, but I know that that's what I was going to have to do.

And I just didn't want to do it. And even then, who knows if I would have actually even succeeded to be on it. Right, right, right. I mean, there's all these stories, you know, with Beyonce's Texas Hold'em that it was the first... What was the actual statistic? Was it the first time a black female country singer had topped the charts on the country music station? You know, that's the crazy thing.

It's like, even just being a woman in country, you're up against so much. I mean, I think most country radio stations, I think they play a woman every 12 songs. I think it's the last statistic I remember hearing. Like, it's like like it'll be 12 men and then they'll play like that's like generally the maybe not the rule of thumb but that's like the the statistic is like the ratio. That's insane. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like why?

I mean we're in 2024. It just seems so bogus. Like I really don't get it. Where do you think the future of country music is going? Because, I mean, you know, we have now, oh, she was the judge with you on your show on Apple TV, Mickey... Mickey Guyton. Mickey Guyton. Yeah. And she was, wasn't she the first female to be...

She was the first black female to ever be nominated in a country category for a Grammy. There's pushback from Mickey for singing about being a black American and pushback on you for writing about a love through the eyes of a gay man. But for me, I feel like country music, almost more than any other genre, is about truthful storytelling. A 1000%, I mean, also it's like,

it wasn't like I had some agenda or mandate that I was gonna be like, ooh, you, I'm going to write songs about men. People are going to flip their lids. I'm just singing a fucking love song, which everyone's done since the dawn of time. How is it any different? Yeah. In listening to a lot of your music, if you didn't know the history,

I don't think you would even see it through that lens. It's just a heartbreak. Well, that's the thing, I have no. Yeah, there's no agenda, there's no gay agenda. Right, right, right, right. You know what I mean? Like I'm literally just trying to write music about things I struggle with and things I've gone through

and shit I've experienced and like everybody should be. Speaking of gay agenda, can we talk about RuPaul's Drag Race? Oh please, always. I feel so lucky to have even been a part of it. I got to be a judge as well. I know. I had the best time. It was like the best day of my life. It was amazing. I mean, I've been watching since season one. Yeah, me too. You know, I've loved it forever. I've obviously been an absolute admirer and fan of RuPaul

since forever before Drag Race. Also I'm kind of like a Drag Queen, I always joke with my Drag Queen friends because of the mask, I'm always hot and overheating. And that set is like ice fucking cold because RuPaul has it like, you know, at like 40 degrees at all times. So I was like in my best life. Yeah, it was good. I always say this story, like I didn't, you know, because I grew up playing in punk bands.

I was always openly gay, but I never went to a gay bar or had that many gay or queer friends until I was probably in my early to mid 20s. I was probably like 24, 25. And I was asked when I was living in Vancouver to DJ a country night that they were doing, this drag country night. And they didn't know anyone who could DJ country music. Amazing. So they asked me to do it.

And so I became immediately my first like foray into really sort of like gay culture. Before that, I think I just like watched all of Queer as Folk and I was like, that's cool. I wish I was part of that sort of, even though I was gay. But my first friends in like the gay world were all drag queens. And so I just immediately was like, oh, these are my people. They were just so great. And so still, to this day, I mean, a big part of my friend circle are drag queens.

And a lot of them have been on Drag Race. And I feel like they've influenced you, too. 100%, yeah. I mean, I've written songs about drag queens. And like, you know, Trixie always calls me an honorary drag queen, so I take that as like a nice badge of honor. I love Trixie Mattel so much. Me too.

I mean, Trixie's one of my genuine best friends. She also is such an incredible country artist. Oh my god. A mogul. I'm like, Trixie is like the next RuPaul. I mean, just with regards to like, the scope of success that she's had is mind blowing. And you know, Trixie grew up in like a literal trailer

in the Midwest and you know, she's, I mean, I've been to both her houses and they're lovely. You know what I'm saying? I love to hear that, it's amazing. I don't know if you're still with someone now, but when you were dating, obviously you're not walking around in a mask all the time. What is it like getting to know people and revealing what you do?

I think I've gotten rid of 5% of my imposter syndrome at this point. I'm perpetually oblivious. My manager and I always laugh, even when I'm in full mask and everything. I'll be like, everyone's looking at you, and she's like, they're looking at you. You know, I'm so oblivious to like, you know. I've been with my boyfriend now for three years,

but before that, when I was dating, I would be telling my friends, like, man, I think this guy doesn't like me. It's so weird. They seem so off put, whatever. And my friends would be like, maybe they're nervous. Maybe they're intimidated. And I'd be like, why?

I just couldn't place it. So I don't know if that answers your question. I guess I just feel still like the exact same person I was when I was working those three day jobs, you know what I mean? Except for the fact that now I can provide for my parents, I can support my family, I have a house, and I have security, which I've never had in my entire life.

I mean, other than that, I feel like I'm literally the exact same person. Yeah. Do you think there's an expiration date to this? I hope not. I'm just kidding. Because you talked about this project. You talked about this career as a project. It's a thing that you created.

But do you see yourself moving on to a different thing? I don't think I'll move on to a different thing. I think I will do this forever. I don't know if it will always... I like things to evolve. Yeah. You know, that's sort of the short answer. So I don't think it will, I know for certain it probably won't look or feel or sound

exactly like how it is, but that's sort of like, you know, that's like Bronco feels very different to me than Pony did does. Yeah. You know, and I love all of them. They're all like, it's like my kids or something. They all have a special place in my heart, but they are, there is evolution in between all of that.

And it's hard to talk about evolution when you're in the middle of it. You obviously can look back at where you started and where you are now and see how you've grown there. But do you have hopes and aspirations for where you want to go next? I think I really love touring. I had to cancel all of my touring last year to focus on my mental health. You're free for doing that. Yeah, thank you.

It was an extremely hard decision. It was the first time other than COVID that I've ever canceled a show in almost 20 years of touring. So it wasn't easy for me. I'm a workaholic. I also am, you know, it doesn't escape me how grateful I am to have all of this stuff, you know, so like it wasn't an easy decision, but it was the only decision to be honest. And I have such an appreciation for just making art and making music music I feel like I'm going back to basics a little bit.

You know like I listen to a lot of the same music I listened to in like high school like I've been sort of going back to like a simpler thing in my I guess in my like soul or whatever. So I don't know what that was gonna look like I don't know what that translates into. I'm gonna be like. I think it's exciting not to know. I mean. Maybe I'll be like a Hare Krishna or something.

I mean, like John Lennon music, I don't know. Listen, I wouldn't be surprised. I mean, I think you're doing a pretty good job. I mean, you're not even 40 yet, and you've, let's like review all the things that you've done with your life. I mean, it's, you know, everything from ballet dancer to punk rock, to country music star, to,

it's, you know, classical actor. I think it's pretty. Well, I've yet to be a cardiothoracic surgeon, which was my dream as a child. So that's nice. There's still so much time. I was obsessed with ER, you know, so. Yeah.

Thank you so much for doing this. Thank you. I really appreciate it. It's such a pleasure. It's so lovely to hang with you. I was really excited when you said yes. Oh, yeah. Well, it was an easy yes. Thank you.

Thank you. Yay. Next week on Dinner's On Me, you know her as Miranda on Sex and the City and Just Like That, and for her awe-inspiring performances on Broadway, it's Cynthia Nixon. We get into being a child star in New York City, juggling two Broadway shows as a college freshman and what she thinks of her iconic character Miranda's evolution. And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now

by subscribing to Dinners on Me Plus. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad-free. Just click Try Free at the top of the Dinners on Me Show page on Apple Podcasts to search your free trial today. Dinner's On Me show page on Apple Podcasts to search your free trial today. Dinner's On Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson.

It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Angela Vang. Sam Baer engineered this episode. Hans-Dyl She composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tamika Balanz-Kalasny and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.