Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Richard Gadd — on Following 'Baby Reindeer,’ Self Doubt & Making Peace with the Past

Episode Date: August 4, 2026

‘Half Man’ and ‘Baby Reindeer’ creator and star Richard Gadd joins the show. Over roasted fish and watermelon salad, we discuss our unique experiences as Boy Scouts, dealing with the pressure of success after a cultural phenomenon like Netflix’s ‘Baby Reindeer,’ and the sleepless nights he faced taking on the challenging role of Ruben in ‘Half Man,’ streaming on HBO Max and the BBC. This episode was recorded at Frederick’s in Islington, London. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Not like the lottery at all, actually. Exactly. Inexplicably good. Offer's worth bragging about. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pickup fees may apply. One thing I can always count on with Beckett and Sully, if I make them a good sandwich, I know it's going to get eaten. And honestly, when you're packing lunches day after day, that is a win. You want something your kids are excited about, but you also want to feel good about what you're sending them off with. That's why I love Boar's Head. At the deli counter, our favorites are freshly sliced and made with the quality I can count on.

Their maple honey ham and maple honey turkey are made with premium whole cuts and crafted with 100, percent maple syrup and grade A golden honey. So you get great flavor along with quality protein to help fuel busy school days. Pair it with their American cheese made from a hand-selected blend of 100% all-natural cheddar. And you've got a lunch that's simple, delicious, and one they'll actually finish. For lunchtime inspiration, visit boarshead.com slash back to school. They've got lots of kid favorite ideas to make packing lunches a little easier. And for Boar's Head, head to your local deli counter. Hey, it's Jesse.

Today on the show, you know him as a star and creator of the Netflix Sensation Baby Rainier and Halfman on HBO Max and BBC. It's Richard Gad. I would rather risk failure doing what I love than not risk it and stay in a state of success. This is Dinner's On Me, and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Today I'm at Fredericks in London's Islington neighborhood. It's tucked into Camden Passage, this charming pedestrian-only street that's full of antique shops and vintage shops.

Fredericks has been here since 1969, founded by the Siegel family, who continue to run it today. And its regulars are true regulars. Many people in London have been coming here for 20 and 30-plus years. That says something. Okay, Richard should be getting here soon, so let's get to the conversation. Have you ever been here before? No, have you? Once or twice, it's nice.

I love how it looks like an old pub from the outside. Then you come in here and it's like a beautiful art gallery. Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, I really love the aesthetic of it. I've come here a few times. It's very chic. You live in this neighborhood, right? I live very closely here, yeah, I live in Finnsbury Park.

Okay. I love it. It's a great place to live. I've been in Finnsbury Park for maybe about six or seven years. Okay, and is that from Scotland? Yeah, yeah, I grew up. I grew up at a place called Waterbury, Wormit, which no one's ever heard of, but it's a terrible name for a place.

Wormit? Wormit, yeah, like what you do to a dog. That's crazy. Yeah, so it's kind of, yeah, so I grew up in this kind of small town, and there was one shop. That was kind of all it had. There was a pub, but it would like frequently close and they reopen. Not though, I was old enough to even go in kind of thing. but it was about a mile over the water from Dundee.

So that was about, if I say Dundee, people tend to know. Yeah, I know, I've heard of that. I mean, I'm Ferguson, so I know I have Scottish heritage there. I don't know any of my family who might still be over there, but I spent a little time in Ireland and, you know, that also my other side of my family is Doyle, so it's Doyle and I'm very, Ferguson, so I'm very, like... Very Celtic.

Very Celtic. Yes. Yeah. So you've got your own tartan, Ferguson tartar. I do, yeah. Yes. Do you ever wear it? Do you ever, like, do a...

I don't actually... I only have, like, a little scrap of the fabric. I don't actually have an, like, an actual tartan, yeah. Oh, you've never been... I need one. Oh, wait. So what does... Yeah, I'll take...

I'll take a sparkling, please. Yeah, I'll go still, please. That's great. You should wear a kilt. Have you ever worn a kiln? I don't think I have. I might have to wear one for modern family once. is like a costume.

Yeah, yeah. But I don't think I've ever worn a. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, no, I love a kilt. It's one of the parts of, thanks so much. It's one of the parts of the,

thank you. The Scottish kind of national identity that I really love. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so yeah, no, I'd encourage the kilt. I mean, I feel like there's like a fetishness behind it as well.

Like, at least in America, like, you know, anytime anyone's wearing a kilt, they're like, what's under there, you know? Yes. Oh, yes. Yeah, absolutely. I remember the first times I had it on. I don't admit this often, but I was a Boy Scout would have grow up. I was a Boy Scout too.

Oh, we're a Boy Scout, yeah, yeah. And we, we, I bagpacked in, I think it was Sainsbury's and Tesco and all that stuff, in order to raise funds for this trip to Texas. We went to Texas. To Texas, okay. It's a culture shock. Yeah, oh yeah, we were very young. young I was, but I can't remember

I must have been like 12 or 13, but we all went along like this big Boy Scout troop, but as we were traveling, we were made to wear kilts, I remember. And I remember... In Texas? Yeah, yeah, it was part of the kind of, we would have our sort of neckacheef and our, what's it called a Woggle? Do you know what woggles? I mean, it

sounds familiar. Yeah, we had the badges and everything. But I remember wearing the kilt, and it was the first time I'd sort of worn one, and we had some older Boy Scouts. I think they were called Adventure Scouts. Yes, they were. That's right. That's right. They were the ones that it was, they were like adult scouts.

I remember like every now and again, somebody would get on the knees and try and like see under their coats, I remember. And I remember being too young to almost be like, why do people keep doing that? But now I know that the whole true Scotsman thing. Were you wearing underwear, I'm sure? As I was, I remember as I was a kid I was, but I think that the old, I mean, the tradition is to not not do it. And I think a lot of women saw these guys of young, strap and lads and were like, oh, let's have a look. And even some, I know, gregarious men would try and stuff like that. So it was the first time I became aware of the kind of almost that international obsession with the kill.

Yeah, yeah, for sure. No, it definitely has a different allure in the States. Wait, I'm kind of fascinated with you going to, of all places, Texas. Yeah, yeah. In your early, you know, not even teens. Yes, yeah. Do you remember, like, what your perception of it was? First of all, was that the first place you'd been to in America?

Yes. Jesus, Christ. I was like into America. Yeah, it's funny. It's like Americana. Yeah. I mean, I never, there was a, it was part of a, like a scout exchange program. Okay.

So I went and stayed with a family in Texas and Dallas, Fort Worth. That's where my grandparents lived. No way, no way. Yeah, and I stayed with them, and then we traveled around a bit, and I remember we went to Big Bend National Park and we went all hiking. I remember I saw a big bear in Big Ben National Park. You like went to all the places that I used to backpack with my family. Wow, wow. It's amazing.

I was raised in New Mexico, which is the neighboring state. Wow, wow. So Texas and New Mexico, the four corners areas, I call it. That's like all that we would go camping in all those areas. So yeah. Wow. Yeah, exactly we were talking about. It's gorgeous.

It's just such an interesting first, like, you know, introduction to the states. Yes, yeah, yeah. Did you stay in the Boy Scouts? No, I didn't enjoy it. I was, how do I put this? I mean, I was bullied as a kid, and I didn't have a lot of friends. It's like, I felt like any of those group activities, like sports and Boy Scouts. and stuff. The things that sort of forced children to, you know, be communal, it just, they were

always really exposing to me and I felt very intimidated by them. So I would try them because I would think, well, maybe this is one that will kind of like open me up. But it usually, the masculinity around it, like really, it just, it didn't, it didn't work with who I was as a kid. And I just, I was like what they call an indoor kid. That's code for gay. But like, um, You know, I just, I had a hard time just relating to these other guys. And the only, the only, like, group activity that I really sort of found community in was community theater. And that's like, oh, these people I can hang with. But if it's specifically if it's all, like, boys, that was always really rough for me.

I bet, I bet. I'm sorry to hear that. Well, it's funny, I never expected to be talking about those scouts, but it's great. It's bringing back all kinds of memories. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I'm sorry you didn't enjoy it. I didn't. Yeah, no, I can totally understand why.

Sorry to interrupt. No, worried. Do you like also something to drink? I want something like a little effervescent, but also like citrusy or... Or a bit citrusy. We can do alcohol-free sprits. That's what I do. Or a crudino, say.

I want that spreads. Yeah, alcohol-free sprits? Thank you, yes. Do you do, like a sanpilis sprit? What's the non-alcoholic stuff? Oh, you're notherty. Yeah, the bottom. I'll do one of these, Passion fruit.

Passion fruit, vegetarian. Yeah, sure. Let's try that. That sounds great. What a wild. I give you a bit of time to think about the foods. Sure. Yeah.

Thank you so much. Thank you. Oh my God, the people in England love to talk about the weather. Yes, yes. Love. And they talk about it more. Nothing was too much now. Too much.

Constantly. apologizing for the heat. Yeah, it's kind of unbelievable. It seems to get worse and worse every year. I think this is the first summer, not to be too dramatic. Yeah. Where I thought, I don't think I can do another summer in London. It's my, it's my first, it's the first time I've had that thought where I need to, I need to jump away for the hot months and the heat waves. I think that's exactly what you need to do. Yeah, it's like impossible to sleep. It's, it's really, I live in a flat as well and and it feels, yeah, I live like high up and It feels like a furnace.

It feels kind of unbelievable. Like even just kind of typing out of a computer, I feel like I'm saying. Yeah, and you work from home, I assume. I do. I like to write out and about, I think I guess ever since baby reindeer and half man happening stuff, it's harder and harder to do. Right. So I feel at the moment, usually when it shows it out,

and like I'm in the public consciousness, that's when it's harder to go out and write and stuff like that. But I have been working from home these past few weeks, but it has been kind of unbearable. I need to go out of... I need to Google an air-conditioned cafe and go down. Ice cream shop, stop writing.

Just like riding at a cafe, like a struggling rider at the beginning of your career, I think it's very charming. You know? Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back,

Richard opens up about the immense pressure of following baby reindeer, why playing the lead in Halfman almost didn't happen and the surprising person who convinced him to take the role. Okay, be right back.

One thing I can always count on with Becca and Sully, if I make them a good sandwich, I know it's going to get eaten. And honestly, when you're packing lunches day after day, that is a win. You want something your kids are excited about, but you also want to feel good about what you're sending them off with. That's why I love Boar's Head. At the deli counter, our favorites are freshly sliced and made with the quality I can count on. Their maple honey ham and maple honey turkey are made with premium whole cuts and crafted with 100% maple meat. maple syrup and grade A golden honey. So you get great flavor along with quality protein to help fuel busy school days. Pair it with their American cheese made from a hand-selected blend of 100%

all-natural cheddar. And you've got a lunch that's simple, delicious, and one they'll actually finish. For lunchtime inspiration, visit boarshead.com slash back to school. They've got lots of kid favorite ideas to make packing lunches a little easier. And for Boershead, head to your local deli counter. On days off from Jesus Car Superstar in London this past summer, we would head out to the English countryside for a little family reset. The boys were in heaven. They were running around, looking at farm animals, getting as muddy as possible. Justin was, you know, thriving, taking runs in the morning. And I finally had an excuse to sit quietly with my Kendall for a few minutes without feeling guilty. Now, trips like this always remind me that vacations aren't exactly

cheap. So here's something I really didn't think about until Airbnb. While you're away, your home could actually be working for you when you list it on Airbnb. It's such a practical way to bring a little extra income and put it towards your own travel plans. And if the idea of hosting sounds intimidating, Airbnb has this great thing called the co-host network. It's made up of experienced local hosts who can help manage your listing, take care of your home, and help your guests have a great stay while you're way so you can enjoy your vacation without worrying about what's going on back home. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. So we just got back from about two months in London and Spain. Part of it was work, part of it was vacation, and we just got back to Los Angeles. And there were like 900 things to

do at the house. There were repairs to be made. There were things to be ordered. There were groceries to be shopped for, I just felt like I was incredibly behind the moment I landed. When your to-do list keeps growing, TaskRabbit is ready to help. Just pick a trusted tasker, and they'll show up and get it done. And taskers are often available to help the same day. They can help you with everything from moving to furniture assembly. Yeah, yeah, no need to figure out those IKEA instructions all by yourself. They help with home repairs, yard work, and so much more.

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And we're back with more dinners on me. First of all, I absolutely loved it. Oh, thanks so much. Thank you. Congratulations on your Emmy nomination. Oh, thank you very much. Thank you. Very excited.

That was pretty crazy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, no, thank you. It's very exciting. It was quite, yeah, I'm really pleased. It's a funny one. like the character to it takes it out of you

you know like and I sort of I think I was so scared in a way of playing Rubin like not so much from a sort of but from the challenge point of view from the I guess every time you you do something really in the public eye

you're risking failure every single time you do something and I guess the biggest thing with Rubin was that I was taking on something that was so far away from me and so far away from anything that I'd done and almost like even when I said yes to it, I didn't know how I was going to get there. It's like a shot in the dark.

That it feels like a relief that has kind of come off positively. I suppose people generally just like liking the characters, maybe not the wrong word, but receiving the performance well because I had sleepless nights, you know, over it. And I really, I would almost have, even after we'd locked and finished and edited and everything like that, I would have almost this, almost heart palpitantly, like thinking about what,

because it was so separate from anything you got from war. Yeah, yeah, and I think it leaves you open to all kinds of criticisms in a way. I mean, I was the guy in the comedy suit making the really bad jokes, you know, who couldn't make a decision or be almost honest with anyone.

And I had played this really thin, neurotic comedian in a really ubiquitous television show. And then I was asking people to buy me as this psychopathic guy in a leather jacket. And I think I knew it was a tall order to ask. And I think that, you know, my own work, critic in a lot of ways, I'm my own biggest enemy.

And, you know, I will always give us up a hard time no matter what I do. And I suppose it was just such a leap, a stab in the dark and a kind of leap of faith. And, you know, and so it's nice to be sort of recognized in that way, especially amongst, like, esteemed company like the people are in the cat's green, everything like that. But it was a big old, yeah, it was a big old thing to pull off. So, yeah, there's a sense of relief about it as well. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Thank you. These both are very, very refreshing. Oh, we need for a... Oh, look at that. It's got a little hat. Wow. No, I think we're good. Yeah, yeah.

We've had a discussion while you've been away. I'm going to do the watermelon feta salad. And I think I'm going to go with the halibut. The halibet. Hallibut. Yeah, do watermelon as well, please. And I will do the Scottish fillet of salmon. It's refreshing for a day like today.

Thank you. Thank you so much. When did you know you wanted Jimmy Baldadiers? Was it an audition? Did you write it for him? There wasn't so much that I wrote it for him. I sort of... I always write with...

And it's almost like I see a character in my head that's not really a person. Uh-huh. Like, I almost like try to create. because I think it's like, I can see things like quite clearly in my head, almost like a visual thing when I'm writing, but I never want to write with a person in mind

because then the person might influence the character, if that makes sense. So I come up with what I think the character... Like a prototype? Yeah, yeah. So I always, if I close my eyes, imagine Rubin. I mean, it's not always how it ends up. I imagine him like kind of straggly beard,

like kind of weird haircut. Like I always sort of that way, but I didn't necessarily see my face on Ruben kind of thing. but when I remember writing the show and I think the character I was visualising did look a bit like Jamie Bell and did have a kind of like a slight stature and did have a kind of

you know, it was kind of kind of cleanly shaven and did have like this that when I started to think about okay dream casting who did I want to do this and Jamie Bell came into my mind it almost like clicked into place like almost like this oh that character and him

they almost go they click like hand in hand in a way and not only that but I've always I've always loved his work and stuff. And even though I know he's the celebrated actor and he's been an admired actor since he was like 14 or 13 years old. He's Billy Elliot. Yeah, he's Billy Elliot.

I mean, despite all that, I still think he's underrated in a way. And there's a mystique about him that I like. He's very, he's very, like, he's still a, he's very famous, but he's still like he, He's not a limelight sort of actor in a lot of ways. But I still find him kind of underrated. It was a real honor to work with him.

It was a tough shoot, you know. It was intense. There's so much trust that has to happen there. I mean, I feel like I read somewhere that he convinced you to doing the part. Like, he wanted to do it with you. Yeah, he did. And I... How did he talk you into that?

Well, I flew to... When he was interested, because I sent him episode one, I remember sending him to him thinking, well, I won't even get a response. I think even though Baby Reni had popped off at this point. point it was a big success. I still, I think I, I didn't think I get a response. I think it hadn't quite measured up to me that people would now actually start to be interested, but I flew over to LA to meet him and I remember, I remember just, because I had admired him for a while, I remember, I still, I still find fame, I still find that thing kind of, I like it because it shows that

like I'm still a fan and like meeting you, meeting Jamie, meeting all these people at the Emmys, meeting all this stuff, people I've watched on TV, so on, I still get the giddy frill. Yeah. And I think that's good. But the first five minutes, I was like, this is, I had to sort of almost be like, oh, this is kind of mad. I've been a fan, this guy for ages.

And now he's chatting positively about my work. But I remember him saying, oh, how's it going with the Ruben casting? Thank you very much. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you very much.

I remember him saying, oh, how's it all going with the Rubin casting? And I said, yeah, yeah, good. We're sort of, we're sort of trying to figure out Nile first because we're going to cast around Nile. hint hints please do it you know that kind of thing but I was like but you know we're looking at this guy

we're looking at this guy we're thinking of this guy and he sort of almost went oh so you're not doing it and I remember being like oh what makes you say that you say oh I just read it and I just thought you could do it and it would be good if you did it and I went oh I was like because in my head I was like I didn't it never crossed your mind

no no no had any producers or anyone really mentioned it along the way in terms of hey have you thought about doing this. I just think it, there was certainly no discussion around me being, being Rubin until he said it.

I took it as a big compliment and it really put it in my head that, oh, that's, that might be really, really interesting. And then around about the same time the channels did call a meeting to say, look, how are you going to feature in this? And I was like, oh, oh, so they were to probably were waiting for me to be that,

oh, by the way, I want to do this. And I said, and there were no real meaningful male roles left, apart from Rubin, adult Rubin. Right. And I remember saying, well, adult Rubin's the only one, now that Jamie's kind of signed on,

Adol Rubin's the only one who could meaningfully be a big part of the show. And I think even they were nervous about it. Like, I'm not sure they said it, but I could almost be like, oh, okay, okay. Like, almost like a, rightfully so, like, oh, this is the gamble that it was. Right.

But they were like, well, well, absolutely. And this is testament to how amazing HBO and BBC are. You know, they were like, well, we'll absolutely back you whatever you want to do. And I was like, oh, God, this is up to me now. You know, sometimes it's easier if somebody says, this is what you do. And you're playing this part and this is what we want. No, no, that's not going to work. We don't want you to do this.

But they really were like, well, it's whatever you want to do, we'll back you. So I thought, well, oh, wow, this is really my decision. And I, for a couple of nights or maybe one night, I really, I felt quite, quite, I really went through the motions like I remember yeah and it but it was like really self-damming it was like oh what if you make a fool of yourself like like people what if people like

you know don't buy it or you know like what if it's you know I was like this is so like where do I even begin I'm at that stage I was really like kind of thin and I was like how can I you know I was just sort of I was really and I kept thinking all of my decisions

were based on, well, what if, it was negatives, what would people think? What if it fails? Fear, fear, fear. And that was the same with Halfman. I was like, well, I've had this big hit with Baby Rainier. Should I go straight into my next show? What the reasons for not do?

I want to do it. It's a creative endeavor that I believe in. What's holding me back is, what if it doesn't work? And I think if fear is the motivation for not doing something. I always feel that way. If you're not feeling scared about something, there might be something wrong with, like, it might not be the thing to do.

Exactly. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, I tell Richard about a vulnerable moment I had with one of my biggest heroes, Andrew Lloyd Weber. And we talk about why putting your most personal stories out into the world can be so powerful. Okay, be right back. Evening, buy his remorse. Buy a new car, I'll be moving in. Let's get started.

Sorry, I think there's been a mistake. I bought it from Carvana. You what? Yeah, great price. I even have seven days to love it. return it. So there's no... No, no buyer's remorse. More like buyers rejoice?

I guess I'll let myself out. Congratulations. I mean it. Buyers rejoice. Buy your car today on Carvana. Limitations and exclusions may apply. See our seven-day return policy at Carvana.com. Sometimes the hardest part of dinner isn't cooking, it's realizing that at 545 that you forgot to plan dinner at all. You know? I spent a lot of time eating at incredible restaurants for the show, but at home,

I want something that's easy, reliable, and actually tastes great. That's why I've been keeping my freezer stocked with Omaha Steaks. It's honestly like having a really good butcher on standby. Now, lately we've been making the burgers, and they have been fantastic. They're juicy, flavorful, and tastes like something you'd order at a really good neighborhood restaurant. If you've never tried Omaha Steaks, the burger perfection flight. It's a great place to start. For just $79.99, you get $20,000.

premium steak burgers made from five different cuts of steak, including flaminion, New York strip, ribby, brisket, and sirloin. So you can actually taste the differences between each one. Try the burger perfection flight at Omaha steaks.com today. That's 20 premium steak burgers for just $79.99. Plus, get $35 off with the promo code Jesse. That's Omahasteak.com, promo code Jesse for $35 off at checkout. Terms apply. See site for details. So we just got back from about two months in London and Spain. Part of it was work, part of it was vacation, and we just got back to Los Angeles.

And there were like 900 things to do at the house. There were repairs to be made. There were things to be ordered. There were groceries to be shopped for. I just felt like I was incredibly behind the moment I landed. When your to-do list keeps growing, TaskRabbit is ready. to help. Just pick a trusted tasker, and they'll show up and get it done. And taskers are often available to help the same day. They can help you with everything from moving to furniture assembly. Yeah, yeah,

no need to figure out those IKEA instructions all by yourself. They help with home repairs, yard work, and so much more. I've been loving TaskRabbit. I recently used them to repair a gate on our chicken coop, you know, so the chickens wouldn't get out. When life happens, your to do-do list, grows. So get ahead of it now and get $15 off your first task at taskrabbit.com or on the TaskRabbit app using promo code Jesse. Taskers book up fast, especially for same day tasks. So book trusted home help today. That's $15 off your first task using promo code Jesse with the TaskRabbit app or at taskrabbit.com. And we're back with more dinners on me. It's interesting you said that you were even before you started, you know, shooting it that you had reservations and doubts.

And then like while you were doing it had reservations and doubts. And when you were editing it had reservations and doubts. Like, I think that's, I don't know, I want to like, I don't know how I'm wanting to get into that all of it. Because I feel it's so interesting because I'm doing this, I'm doing this show in the West. And right now I'm doing Jesus Christ Superstar. I'm on stage for three and a half minutes. It's so short. And I, you know, it's like you're really being shot out of a cannon.

You wait backstage. I put on all this makeup. And then, like, it's my time to go out. The show's been going on for an hour and a half. They're killing it. They're rock stars, Sam Riders, you know, singing these crazy high notes. And then I go out and it's like, gold cape. And it's like, now it's your turn.

Take over the show. And I really, I'm pretty confident that the first few shows that I did in front of 2,200 people were not great. And I was figuring it out. And I wasn't sure what I was doing and what my version of this guy was. And I remember finishing the show, I think I was the wrong person to do this. And I don't know if, like, I'm only going to do it for three weeks.

So it's only going to be a three week thing. But like, I don't know if they're going to be a great three weeks for me. Like I might be just every night having this sort of crisis after I come off stage thinking, like, I didn't catch the ball properly. You know, it was tossed to me. and I dropped it. And it took, you know, me doing whatever I needed to do. Part of it was, like, just trusting myself

and that I was the right person for it and, like, choosing to make big choices in front of 2,200 people, not knowing if they would go off well or not, and, like, sort of testing out these different versions of this character kind of in real time. But, you know, we've opened the show now, and I feel like I've figured it out.

But I struggled through a lot of doubt while I was in those early days of doing it. So even just hearing you talk about, you know, being unsure as you were creating the thing that you created that you were wildly successful at, not only in my opinion, but many people's opinions. And you just got a nomination for an Emmy 4, but that you were even as you were editing having like, sleepless nights just really fascinates me. that carried through for as long as it did. Yeah, well, I think sometimes, like, I never lost belief in, like, the show or, like, what we had to play around with in the edit. I never, like, lost belief.

But I think sometimes to be, for anything to be good, you need to almost walk. And tell me whether you agree with this, almost like a tightrope between confidence and doubt. If you have too much confidence, you're not critical enough in your thinking in order to actually, like, really, assess what is and isn't working, but if you're too doubtful, like, you can almost chop something

up into something kind of unrecognizable. And so I think, like, the key to any success is knowing when to be, to have the right level of confidence, the right level of doubt. I think what I find remarkable is I always thought growing up that when you maybe achieve something great in the eyes of the industry or whatever, then there will be a click moment where, okay, that self-assuredness will just become part of your being because you've reached a milestone and that milestone will give you a sense of release

or give me a sense of release. I think it's quite the opposite. It is quite the opposite. And in fact, the more and more you become, the more and more the kind of pressure grows in a lot of ways. And I think it's, I realize actually even the ones at the absolute top of the game, the top actors that we have

and the top directors, the top writers, all these people, the top dancers, everything, they will still have these doubts about all their work, even at the level and after everything they've achieved. In fact, like, I can speak to many documentaries or interviews of the most famous directors who still speak to it, but equally, that doubt, that kind of voice in their head is equally what spurs them on and makes them as good as they are. And so I think it's at one part, it's difficult, but at the same thing, same time, I think it is important to have that sort of self-critical eye at the same time.

No, I definitely, like I say, I get nervous if it's, if it's not there. I get worried at that I'm not doing something that's challenging to me or that's stretching me or, frankly, that I'm going to be good at. You know, I know that you started writing half man before baby reindeer, but and you went into half man very quickly after baby reindeer as well I know yeah yeah but I mean and I'm asking for myself as well because I also deal with this like how do you manage expectation and having something that was so wildly successful with baby reindeer you know you were successful and on so many levels and also heavily awarded and so on so many levels then to to come into your next project with kind of those expectations and that people now know who you are.

I mean, I'm sure a lot of that played into, you know, that fear of, you know, even taking on the role. Yes, yeah, exactly. For sure, I mean, it probably just, I feel everything, the stakes always feel higher. You know, anytime there's more eyes on you, the stakes always just feel so much higher. And I certainly know what that feels like. what I still struggle with is not crumbling under the weight of those expectations and like

yeah yeah acknowledging them because it's crazy not to but also yeah moving past it yeah I mean that's exactly it that's acknowledging them and moving past it is exactly what I sort of did I think I I know the capacity because I think I've seen

that happen with a lot of people who have achieved success at the Amis or indeed in anything where they have a success and it scares them into a normal state of stasis because they're suddenly revered and I think they think well I don't want to lose that that sense of sort of unanimous the unanimous feeling of being revered and and I think I know enough to know that that can create a great stasis I think a lot of I do believe in that sort of ring rust thing you know like you know like boxers just stay out the game too long they don't forget

to fight and I thought the greater tragedy would be as if I sat in the sun soaking it in too long to the point where I've almost forgot how to do it. I was scared, scared, too scared to do it again. And I felt like I really had the capacity to do that. If I sat for two seconds and thought, you know, because like, I thought, well, Baby Rangers been this really loved thing and the Emmys loved it. And okay, well, that's great for now. That can be the thing that I'm remembered for it.

I think the bigger tragedy would have been the fact they would have stifled the creative, my creative juices are the fact that I just creatively want to make as many things as possibly can in the short time I have. And so I almost like, I almost like the next day after Baby Rainier, I, I opened the drawer, like metaphorically got the half man script out and thought, right, let's get on with this because I, I never wanted to to stop and I'm doing the same again now because I think like expectation, um, it's fine and it's there, but I think I'll never let it come at the expense of my desire

to just keep going. And I would rather risk failure doing what I love than not risk it and stay in a state of success. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Do you some more bread? I'm okay. Thank you very much. Thank you.

Anything gas to drink? I'm good. I'm good with this, thank you. I do it. Diet Coke, please. Yeah, thank you very much. I also You know Like in your work

I Don't know if it's a verdurati But like I I love that Like sometimes I don't know Who to root for You know what I mean Like I don't know who their hero is

Because I don't think there always is Like there's not There's so many You really embrace the flaws Yeah Yeah I think in ways that I don't know

It just makes for very interesting storytelling And I You know even with baby reindeer I mean All those characters There were there were times that I was questioning all of their behavior.

Yes, yeah, yeah. And I think that's so, that's, first of all, very hard to write, I think, convincingly and, like, richly. But also, it's, it's, sometimes it's hard to keep audiences engaged unless there is someone that you're like, oh, that's the good person. Yeah, yeah. And I just, I'm really kind of fascinated by your ability to tell these. really interesting stories without giving us a hero always.

Yeah, yeah, I'm always interested in that like I'm always interested in those I think it's just very true to life that people exist as a good and bad or they have great qualities and bad qualities. I think with Halfman I always wanted as sort of by the end of the show to have you don't know which one has

is the most sort of almost like for like a better word toxic out of two. I always wanted to I thought I remember getting to episode four and from episodes one to three Nile has existed as kind of like very good and Rubin has been like the real force of sort of

bad in his life and he's put upon and I think I left that episode thinking well what do people most expect with episode four? They expect Ruben to get out prison and then expect him to hunt Nile down and he'll be a fancy academic and he'll have a brilliant life down in Oxford and Ruben

will hunt him down and he's going to kill him and that's why episode four will be. And I thought, well, I didn't, and I, it just became very, but just from a writing, sort of creative point of view,

that to keep Nile as this kind of, not that he was, but like saint-like character all the way through and Ruben is like this constant, there could be a sense of sort of repetition. And so that's when I started to build out. Well, what actually,

if Ruben does turn his life around? And what if Nile doesn't and what if that bitterness grows in him? Ruben's allowed to be a lot of things for now, but he's not allowed to be better than him, and how does that manifest in someone. And so that was how I started to grow out episode four, which I think in a lot of ways became the most talked about episode of Pathman,

which was when they kind of started to flip a little bit. But I also never wanted it to be like, well, Rubin's just turned 100% good because I think that also didn't feel like true either. And so I always tried to keep them evolving in a sense of where they... And it was also the weight of what they've been through. like I think the weight of secrecy and repression has a real negative effect on people as they move through life

and they've been through all these traumatic things when they grow up they've repressed themselves in ways that no person should and I think as you get older that the way that not all the times but sometimes it can exhibit in humans in self-destruction and destructive behaviors and I felt like they're now in their 40s by episode six and five and stuff like they're the level of that secrets they're going to start playing on their mind.

It's almost like the weight of their past will be ultimately the greater force. And I felt like I wanted as they move through life that they became more corruptible spirits that by the end you almost couldn't tell which one was worse than the other. And that was always my sort of aim with it. And that was really what I was trying to explore most of all with sort of the repressive side of the two characters. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know Baby Ranger was written from very personal experiences. A lot of those stories are stories that happen to you in some version or another.

And, you know, sort of that reclaiming of your history and telling it through something like a television series and putting it onto other characters, I think, is, I imagine it was probably very powerful for you. and I can imagine also very intimidating and like, you know, scary to put something like that, you know, out in the world. I don't know why this made me think of this. It's so different. But I, when I was a kid, I loved Phantom of the Opera. I posed with the Phantom of the Opera mask for my senior photo. Wow, wow. The last year of high school.

Big musical band. It's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have this really embarrassing photo. the time I thought it was, you know, very earnest. It's just me with this fan of the opera mask. And like my parents framed it in their home. And like, I look back on it now. I'm like, oh my God, this poor child. And so I printed it up and I brought it to England with me because I knew I'd be meeting Angela Weber, who wrote Phantom of the Opera. And I was like, I want to show him this picture. Like, I feel like I have to share it with him and like show him. Because he means a lot to me.

Like, I love this guy. I loved his work. And I was like, I don't know, maybe he'll appreciate if I show him this. Like, he'll see, like, how much I really, you know, admired him as a kid. And he thought it was so charming. And he signed the photo for me. And there was a piece of it, like, by putting out, I was nervous to show him. But, like, by showing it and putting out the, you know, in the world to him,

and, like, having him embrace it so warmly and signing it from me, I felt like I was, like, reclaiming some of my childhood trauma. Like, you're like a really weird kid. And I don't know. It's, you know, now it's this thing I have. Like, it's, you know, no one will ever see this photo probably. I'll probably end up putting it on Instagram. But, like, you know, I, and not to like that directly compares to, like, you know, you taking your experiences and putting it into Baby Ranger.

But, like, there was something even just that sharing that photo that was sort of like, not unproud of. but, like, you know, there's emotion behind it, for sure. Yes, yeah, yeah. And sharing it with the person that, like, kind of invoked that was really powerful. Yeah, yeah. That's so lovely to hear. I think it's great that it's like reframing the past and turning it into something positive. I remember, I mean, Baby Ranger did allow me to have a lot of peace with some of the stuff that I went through.

I can't say like full peace, you know, like I still like go through my, I still my down days and stuff like that. But there was a sense of catharsis for that. I feel like I look back at the person who have been through all that stuff and was so confused and so self-damming and self-hating and so adrift. I almost felt like I was like walking through life, looking through a dirty window all the time. Like I couldn't even connect with anything. you know, like, you know, all those times where you see like a character, like you almost see them in time lapse and the thing where they're still and everyone's time lapsing around, you know, that kind of shot that you get and stuff.

I generally felt like that was my life for years, and I felt like I was never going to be free of it or even admit even, like, one eye or a bit to anyone. And then you fast forward and all of a sudden, you're on this Netflix and you're doing a show. Like it is growth and it is development. And what I think it did was it allowed me to be not ashamed of it. anymore and I suppose

like baby reindeer was you know it was very revealing in a lot of ways and it was very like I wasn't exactly painting myself out to be the most like coherent clear yeah there was a version of the show where I offered a woman a cup

of tea and hey I did this real nice thing and look how she ruined my life what's going on but you know my confused state back then my my sort of inability to draw boundaries with people my inability to speak to people in a forthright and clear way. It was all part of the repression that was kind of destroying my life

and causing a chaos and an anarchy inside my head that didn't allow me to be able to present myself in a way that was clear and healthy and all this kind of stuff. Then you put all this mess out there. Because Baby Ranger still doesn't have clear conclusions. It doesn't have, okay, what Donnie, all he needs to do is say this and then his life's perfect. Even at his conclusion there is a sort of lack of certainty.

but I just put a whole load of confusing and idiosynatic thoughts out there and then people respond to it in a really positive way and then people relate to it way more than I thought they would as well and it certainly brings about a sense of peace so I totally relate to that photograph and I want to see it I want to see it I'll show it to you oh my god don't look behind you gentlemen because it's Wimbledon we can't let you go without having

this one wow wow Thank you so much to have you at the family one restaurant. Thank you so much. This is gorgeous. This is unbelievable, thank you. These might be better than the ones at Wimbledon. Yeah. And you don't have to keep them either.

This is your family's restaurant. Oh my gosh, thank you so much. No, thanks so much for happiness. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Oh my God, it's very good.

Wow. Oh, man, thank you so much for doing this. No, thank you so much. I appreciate this. Yeah, thank you. episode of Dinners on Me was recorded at Fredericks in Islington, London. Next week on Dinners On Me, you know her from Ugly Betty, Desperate Housewives, and now is Miranda Priestley in the West End production of The Devil Wares Prada.

It's Vanessa Williams. We'll talk about the heartbreak of saying goodbye to Ugly Betty, the resilience she built after being forced to resign her Miss America crown, and the advice she says every parent should remember. And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinner's On Me Plus. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, they'll also be able to listen completely ad-free. Just click try free at the top of the

Dinners-On-Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinner's On Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Alyssa. Midcalf. Sam Bear engineered this episode. Hans Dale She composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tamika Balance Kalasni and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.