Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Riz Ahmed — on prepping for ‘Sound of Metal,’ and how his wife led him to ‘RELAY’

Episode Date: August 19, 2025

Emmy-winning actor and the star of film ‘RELAY’ Riz Ahmed joins the show. Over an Indian breakfast of chicken keema, Riz reflects on the daunting preparation for ‘Sound of Metal,’ what American sign language taught him about expression, and why he couldn’t pass up his new thriller ‘RELAY.’ We also get into his Oscar-winning short film ‘The Long Goodbye,’ his advocacy for Muslim inclusion in Hollywood, and how his fractured relationship with Great Britain shows up in his music. This episode was recorded at Dishoom on Portobello Road in Notting Hill, London. Want next week’s episode now? Subscribe to Dinner’s on Me PLUS. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, but you’ll also be able to listen completely ad-free! Just click “Try Free” at the top of the Dinner’s on Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. A Sony Music Entertainment & A Kid Named Beckett production. Get 15% off your Saily plan with the code ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠dinnersonme⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Just download the Saily app or head to ⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠https://saily.com/dinnersonme⁠⁠⁠⁠⁠. Stay connected — and don’t miss your dinner reservation. Stay connected — and don’t miss your dinner reservation. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

So I'm currently traveling abroad in London, right at the moment, which is why so many of my episodes, I have people with British accents right now. It's amazing here. I love it. And until I need directions or restaurant wrecks or anything, and I've got no Wi-Fi and sky-high roaming fees, which is just, it's not cute. That's why I started using Saly. Saly is an easy-to-use e-Sem app created by the folks behind NordVPN. It gives you instant mobile data. in over 190 countries, and you only have to install it once. That means I didn't have to line up at the airport for a SIM card, get scammed outside the train station, or keep hunting for public Wi-Fi signals like it's a rare Pokemon. Seriously, I sat outside of Wagamama the other day

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As a dad, I spend a lot of time thinking about how to give Beckett and Sullivan the best foundation possible. you know, how to help them grow into curious, confident little humans. And let me tell you, every kid learns differently. That's why I was really impressed when I found out about K-12-powered schools. These are accredited tuition-free online public schools for kindergarten through 12th grade, and they're designed to meet kids where they are. Whether your kid thrives on structure, needs a little more flexibility, or learns best outside the traditional classroom,

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K-12 powered school near you and enroll now. That's the letter K, the number 12.com slash JTF. K-12.com slash JTF. Hi, it's Jesse. Today on the show, you know him from films like Sound of Metal and TV shows like The Night of. It's Riz Ahmed. My character basically lives a version of my fantasy life, which is that he's off-grid.

He's not on his iPhone. He's not on his laptop. He's not on any of that. This is Dinner's on Me, and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. I am, oh gosh, I am really excited about this one today. Riz Ahmed, God, I'm such a fan of his. He is a British Pakistani actor, rapper, writer, and activist whose career. Bridges, groundbreaking artistry and urgent social commentary.

He's also just such an incredible actor in person. I have been following his career for quite some time. I actually, I first watched him in The Night of, which is an incredible series that took place about 10 years ago. If you haven't seen it, go watch it on HBO. But after that, I kind of went back and I found his earlier work, The Road to Gautonomo and Shifty, The Four Lions. He has a new movie coming out that I just watched called Relay.

It's fantastic. It's unlike anything he's done before. I am thrilled to have him for breakfast today. I know dinner's on me, but today breakfast is on me. We're meeting before my two-show day on one of my last weekends here in London. And we're at Dishoum. Dishoum is a restaurant I love in London. They have several locations.

We are at the Dishoum on Portobello Road. When people tell you you're heading to London, there's this place that everyone insists that you have to try, and that is Dishuam. It's inspired by the old Iranian cafes of Bombay, and it's got this amazing vibe. It's warm, it's lively, it's a little bit cinematic. It's also an incredible place for breakfast.

They have one of my favorite breakfast in all of London. I've actually, I've never been to this location of Dishoum on Portabella Road, And I'm pleased to know that there is some sort of a lodging upstairs that you could stay in. I love that. I'm not sure what it is or what it looks like. But if it's anything like the restaurant, it's warm and vibey and cool and I want to live there. All right, I cannot wait for Riz to arrive. Let's get to the conversation.

How you doing, man? I'm really good. Yeah? How's it all going to the National? I love it. Have you, do you do theater at all? I did something like, right, this. start and I haven't had a chance to since but but man the national is it's a trip

it's a dream I mean I I know as an American like it's like very rare for us to get invited to the national like it just doesn't happen does it not the national that's a that's you know that's a big deal it's you're a big deal man well that's yeah I mean let's just this is this is come out and say it man but it's it's it's a it's a song time musical he's He's American. There's a lot of, there's other Americans on the cast with me. But it's, uh, it's mostly, I mean, the majority is, it's a British cast. And it's, uh, it's been a dream.

What have you found British actors compared to American ones? I mean, grumpy, grumpy, yeah? It's no, more serious, I'll tell you that. Yeah, I mean, that's the thing. I think the funny thing about, I think British actors and the approach to acting here is so fascinating the difference to the American, uh, point of view. But I think the British thing is like, don't take yourself too seriously. Yeah.

You know, you come in to do a job, you're a craftsman, a craftwoman, you know, and I think in the American point of view, because of all that history and, you know, the method and on all of that kind of thing, it's more like you bring your whole heart and soul to it. But I think that there's actually a lot that can be learned from the American way of doing things and vice versa as well, you know. Well, there's definitely what I'm learning, and then this is a lot that's happened after becoming a dad. Like, just self-care and not, because I was that type of actor. I was like, I brought everything to this stage every night. And, like, there is a point where I was like, I have to, I have to be a little bit more economical with the way I'm offering myself up because I don't have anything left for this family that I have.

It's that classic story, that John Gilgood and Dustin Hoffman's story, right? They were like, was it Marathon Man or something like that? Is John Gilgud and Mariton Man? I'm probably totally butchering the story. I mean, I thought what it was is that, like, Dustin Hoffman's, like, running, just, like, exhausting himself, running on a spot, doing push-up, star jumps. He's going to be out of breath. And John Gilga was like, darling, what on earth you doing? And he goes, I've got to be tired in this next scene.

Yeah. And I'm going to be out of breath. Yeah. And Gilgut goes, try acting, though. And it's that, you know, I mean, it's that slight difference. But when you were, I mean, I don't know how you were when you were started, when you started acting. I did feel like if I wasn't doing all that and, like, really feeling exhaustion, like, I wasn't doing enough and I was phoning it in.

But that's how I was, that's how I operated when I was younger, you know, and what is it now for you? No, I just, it's just, you know, age and experience and also just exhaustion, like with my day. Like, I show up to the theater now and I'm tired. It's not like I'm giving a smaller percentage of myself, but I have to be more economical and smart about how I'm, you know, working. and also leaving things at the theater is something I've learned to do. I used to bring the roles home with me. And I mean, I've also been lucky in my career.

I've played very lighthearted roles. I haven't, like I can imagine, like with a lot of your work. I mean, there's a lot of heavy stuff you could be bringing home and you have to, you know, you have to be kind with yourself and be okay with leaving that at work. Yeah, yeah, it's weird because I kind of feel like when your work is your best you have probably the least to do with it

it's like a vibe and energy is kind of moving through you so I think for me it used to show up in two ways when I go home one is you know your body doesn't know it's acting yeah right so you go home you are stressed you are tense

you may might not have restful sleep you know you're you know when I was doing the night of I broke out in hives I was like crazy stuff was happening you know but there's another side of it that you are in control of that I've got better at which is man I should have done it like this I screwed that out man now I know what that seems I should have done it like I was like I was a psycho with that stuff I'd be like waking up in my bed three years after I'd wrap something I'm not exaggerating I'd go to a bathroom in the middle of the night and I go I know what that line should have been about like a play you did in high school without exaggerating yes like years later can I ask you something do you find that like when you're

taking a role on, you sometimes don't realize how similar it is to what's going on in your own life. And by the end of it or something, you're like, oh my God, this is, this is me. Because I feel like the role that you need in your life kind of finds you at that time. No, there's definitely truth of that. I resonate with that. But I think that, I mean, social. Things have definitely lined up with me, like, you know, being a part of modern family, and then also have, oh, let's order. Yeah. Put a pin in that. Hey, man, what's up?

My favorite breakfast in all this. My favorite breakfast and all this is. Lovely things on the breakfast menu there. Okay. French toasts, very popular, crumpty eggs. My favorite, the chicken keema, it's a little bit spicy. We'll definitely wake you up in the morning. And our non-rolls, which we're very famous for as well, of course.

You may have had one of those before. The chicken chema is definitely very different and we'll liven you up in the morning, that's for sure. I'm very intrigued by the chicken chema and you're scaring me at the same time. I think a nice mix of intrigue and fear goes a long way. Is it super spicy?

Am I going to have heartburn? Oh my gosh. You're being so cryptic and I love it. It's delicious. Okay, I'm going to do the chicken chemo for sure. Yeah, 100% chema of this. I was the only option. Oh, nice.

point. Kema is like, yeah. We're both going down together. It's like the home-cooked options, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, okay. So, okay, I mean. I'm going to get those on the way for you now.

Thank you, man. Appreciate it. Yeah, I, you know, when socially things line up, like, modern family and then also, you know, I was in the, the trenches fighting for marriage equality. And, like, I do feel like I felt so lucky to be part of a pop culture touchstone. That was also part of that same issue. I was like, I have packaged myself brilliantly right now.

The fact that I could be a part of this show and also like actively fighting for marriage equality. But when you're saying like you're... Isn't that because one, I guess what I'm saying is like these things blur, right? Yeah. Because you are, no matter how economical you're trying to be, you're offering a part of your heart, part of your soul. I would ask, do you think you packaged yourself or do you think this story you were telling kind of it entered your life? you know and it carried you forwards with it oh 100% entered my life

and I completely understand what you're saying about allowing things to change you and even if there are things that don't I don't expect to change me I think it's hard like what what this thing is you know that we're trying to do it's like is giving opportunity giving people an opportunity to find themselves in unexpected places yeah right

I'll be watching something and I'm just like like, I am Dame Judy Dech, right? Like, somehow, that's me. That person, that woman right there, that's me. And it just reminds us, you know, slap you around the face way. It's like, no, man, you're the same. There's these differences that seem to separate us, but actually underneath it all, we are one.

And so, ideally, that's what happens when an audience watches something. They recognize themselves in the other, in an unexpected place. Yeah, absolutely. It reveals parts of you that you don't know existed. Absolutely. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we return, we talk about what it means to embody marginalized voices on screen, and he reveals the fascinating origin story of his latest film Relay.

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Taxes and fees extra. Seamint Mobile for details. And we're back with more dinners on me. Were you always drawn to work that resonated with what was going on in the world? I mean, if you look at your early work, I mean, almost everything you did seem to have such impact on what was actually happening in the world at that moment. There's a lot of, I don't know, social,

responsibility that was in your early work and it continues to be were you were you aware of that can i tell you i feel like on the one hand i'm like the answer i want to give you is i'm so proud of that i absolutely wanted to come in like say something with this like precious medium called storytelling and you know another part of me is like man i don't have to carry any of that yeah you know what i mean like completely relate with this you know what i'm saying you can relate as well, like from what you were saying is a kind of vocal advocate for same-sex marriage and kind of becoming an, you know, an icon, you know, in that conversation. I mean, I mean, actually, I would love to hear from you a little bit about how do you think about that? Because

Yeah. Yeah. Well, I mean, I, that's absolutely 100% exactly on the nose. I mean, I I felt a responsibility from the community when I was given a role like the one I had a modern family to get it right and to do it with care and precision. And I'm in a place where I'm as an actor being given a role where I'm attracted to the messiness of that character. I'm attracted to their flaws. Like that's what makes it interesting.

And honestly, that's what makes the audience interested in watching me. No one wants to see perfect people. No one wants a sitcom or a movie where it's like everything just happens, you know, neatly. And yet because there is, I've been, I felt like, you know, at least in the first few seasons about her family being put on a pedestal in a way as far as like, okay, this is a gay couple that's a network television on a, on a huge show. Huge. Like, they, they better get this right. You know, things like there was a storyline that, you know, I had. character had a problem with PDA, public displays of affection. And it's like that the gays were furious because it's like, why are they not kissing? And like, it was, it was more empowerful to show the story of like, why is this character worried about showing public displays of affection with his partner?

It's because of his past. It's because of his sister. It's because of the trauma he had as a kid growing up and being gay and being teased by his sister. It's like all these things that were, that made the story interesting and made it last for 11 years are the things that have. I was also being kind of criticized for. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it was, it was tricky for me because I had to tune out that noise of a community wanting me to do it correctly and preciously. And, you know, my desire to do it with nuance and levels and layers and also poignancy.

And I just felt like there was no way to please both camps. First of all, you telling that story, I was like, are you sure you're not a Muslim guy from Wembley right now? Because you just copy and paste everything you said. I feel a responsibility to portray these characters with care for the community and the under. So many people have this cross to bear, and I do believe it's a gift and a curse at the same time.

I think the shift you're talking about there at the end is really powerful, which is actually the most important thing to represent is yourself authentically. And so I often think about it, like, and I was forced to think, about and was privileged to think about representation and storytelling for a lot of my career. But the way I think about it now is I don't want to think about representing others. I want to think about presenting myself.

Yeah. You know, and if I can be present with myself and present myself, actually that's much more liberating. That's actually embodying a sense of freedom rather than asking for it. Yeah. Or lobbying for it. Yeah. Does that make sense? Absolutely.

Yeah. Thank you very much. That looks great. Thank you. This doesn't look intimidating. I was expecting... Do you know what Kima is? What?

Kima. Kima is mince. Right? So this is chicken, minced, yeah. Hassam Minaj, the stand-up comedian, says to me, like, listen, his lip-miss test

for whether people are real is you're either kemah-roti or you ain't. So we're going to find, we're going to see, you know. I think you're kemah-rote, though. I think I am. I think you are.

This is incredible. No, I mean, you know, I think sometimes I have to constantly remind myself that I am a husband, I'm a father. Like, there's a huge long list. And for me, I get very excited when the thing that seems most exciting to other people, which is the gay part, is lower down on the list. And things precede that, you know, and I can't force what people think of me, but, like, for me, I have to, I try not to identify. Because for a while I was identifying as like, I am a gay actor, I'm a gay actor, and I felt responsibility for that because I think I felt the pressure of that. And to express pride in that when so many people have historically been forced to, you know, bury that. Yeah, yeah.

All right? I think it works in stages, you know. Well, what often said is like you start off first with a stereotype and the caricature, these stages of representations. And then stage two is you kind of subvert that way, you complicate it, right? So the story is about the character being gay or being Muslim or whatever. But we're going to flip it on its head. It's not exactly what you expect. We're going to humanize these portrayals.

And then I think that next stage is like exactly what you're describing. It's not about that. It's effortlessly woven into the fabric of this character's truth. It makes them a three-dimensional human being. They have the side to their identity, but it ain't about that. So I think it works in those stages. But yeah, I'm definitely excited by more than anything, right now, it's thinking about that sense of freedom, that freedom to present yourself.

And I think that's, that's one of the most powerful things for people to witness. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. That can be inspiring in a different way. Mm-hmm. Absolutely. I'm impressed with the work that you've been able to do that feels very authentic, but also so wildly different in tone. I mean, if you look at, like, the road to Guadonimo and then like four lines, you know, the tone in those are completely different and you get to play, you know, such different facets of yourself, but is also so deeply tied to, you know, heritage and in history.

Yeah, I think all of us are many things, right? And I think that's a beautiful thing about what we get to do is we get to express that, like to take. express those different sides of us. And so that kind of goes back to that, you know, that guiding light, that I'm kind of trying to, that word, I'm trying to help define my choices in the way I'm living right now, that's that sense of freedom, you know? I mean, that's what, that's how Relay came about. It was like a very straightforward thing where, you know, we just had a kid and it was like,

I don't know if I'm, take time out right now. Did you just have a kid? I did, yeah, yeah. We were like, I was like, okay, do I want to take step away right now? The movie, and I just showed it to my wife as like, look, what do you think? You know how it is. It's like the whole family's got to be signed up on something. You move the family, the whole thing.

And she read it and she goes, yeah, it's bangs. I would watch this. And it's as simple as that sometimes. And your wife's a novelist, right? She is, yeah. So she is my North Star creatively. She has great taste. And it's kind of annoying sometimes because I feel like, why don't you ask for my opinion

on what you're doing? She's like, yeah, I'm good. I'm good. I'm like, maybe you could change this sentence to this. She's like, yeah, maybe, maybe, yeah, yeah. But she, yeah, she read the script, and she's a tough audience, and she was like, I would watch this. I loved it. I thought it was great.

Yeah, I think it's a lot of fun. I think it's smart. It's that kind of classic, edge of your seat, gripping kind of cat and mouse thriller. You know, the story for people who don't know is my character is a fixer, but he fixes something very specific, right? If you're a whistleblower, if you work at a company and you realize your company is being corrupt and you want to alert the authorities, that doesn't always go so well for the whistleblower.

They can end up getting harassed. This moment of like, okay, am I going to go public or not? It can often be very tense because people get harassed, people can be put in prison. And so what my character does is he helps those people get out of that situation. If you suddenly decide, listen, you know what, I want a simple life.

I want to give these papers back to the company. I want them to leave me alone. I just want to disappear. Can you get me a new identity? Help me live safely. That's what he does. So he's saving people's lives in this very specific situation. Is this a real job that actually exists?

Well, this is the thing. Like we, I was like, okay, this is, this sounds implausible. And then I started talking to people and started talking to whistleblowers. He started talking to lawyers and special advisors there's these law firms used. the work with whistleblowers and there are versions of this you know I wouldn't say there's necessarily somebody exactly like my character

that I've spoken to but I'm sure they're out there so yeah the underbelly of this world was super fascinating but there's a twist on it in our movie which is that you know it's a classic drillaber with a twist and the twist is that my character basically lives a version of my fantasy life

which is that he's off grid he's not on his iPhone. Yeah. He's not on his laptop. He's not on any of that. That's really what drew me to the role. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, for the first, like, 45 minutes, you don't say a word. Yeah. And I was like, oh, is this going to be a performance without any dialogue? This is my chaplain moment. Yeah, David, as a director, just made all these awesome decisions like that. Right. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. After the break, Riz shares the story of an honest.

Onset bond that's carried through multiple films, reflects on those back-to-back Oscar nominations, and tells me about a special film we're all going to add to our cues immediately. Okay, be right back. Lately, our August calendar has been absolutely packed between summer travels, Sunday dinners with friends, chasing our kids around the park. It's busy in the best possible way. And when you're juggling all that and you realize you need to hire someone fast, that's a whole different kind of heat. That's where Indeed comes in. When it comes to hiring, Indeed is all you need.

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Speed up your hiring right now with Indeed. And listeners of this show will get a $75-sponsored job credit to get your jobs more visibility at Indeed.com slash dinners on me. Just go to Indeed.com slash dinners on me right now and support our show by saying you heard about Indeed on this podcast. Indeed.com slash dinners on me. Terms and conditions apply. Hiring, Indeed is all you need. This episode of Dinners on Me is brought to you by Huggy's Snug and Dry. The new Huggy's Snug and Dry are luxuriously soft and ultra dry. And I can personally vouch for that because when Beckett was around a year, he went through this phase where he's he refused pants. He just wanted to run around in diapers and nothing else. And I thought, well, if that's the outfit of choice, it better be a good one. So I gave Huggy's snug and dry a try,

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Huggies, we got you, baby. After what feels like a summer spent entirely on planes, it is so good to finally be back at home. And you know what that means for me? Cooking. Cooking in my own kitchen, with my own supplies, And if I want to cook like Ina Garten, and listen, who doesn't, at least I always do, you need the right cookware. That's why I've got my eye on Macy's big home sale, and specifically the $249.99 at $0.99, all-clad, seven-piece stainless steel cookware set.

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So if you're ready to upgrade your home life, head to Macy's.com or your local store and just save me a seat at the dinner table, okay? And we're back with more dinners on me. the casting of the people who are the relay ops or operators is brilliant so good and because it's all these people who are just they're like normal people and they're all they're like all kick-cast new york theater actors yeah they just came in slam dunked in just and it's wonderful because they're delivering a really important tense information life or death information at times and yet they're just like it's almost like this is just their nine to five job Leave the money in a briefcase. That's right. Do not contact my client or else. We will alert the authorities. It's just people doing their job.

It's like a temp job for them almost. It's so great. Isn't that the coolest twist? You don't see that. I love that. And every time you're talking with Lilley James, you're having this conversation through a different person. So it's like every time you communicate,

it's through the voices of another person. And yet there's this continuation of, same conversation it's really fascinating yeah it's it's a super cool um concept that kind of just adds a fresh twist to that kind of classic yeah cat and mouse twisty thriller you know and and um yeah it's always it's always very telling i think you know um wouldn't it been amazing if like they just like got crazy cameos like like i'm trying to think you just you're just in there Ditch, for example. You're just in there reading the Relay service.

Truly. You have a director's car over there, so we get some people in. Listen, I think we could get some great people. You were talking a little bit about just being, you know, having worked with the deaf community. Of course, that was on The Sound of Metal, which was so incredible. I love that movie so much. When I have to do research for something, I get really excited, but also I get overwhelmed. And I'm like, I'm always happy when I'm actually doing this.

the research, but the thought of, like, standing at the bottom of the hill of having to learn something is the scariest thing. And you had to do two hills. You had to learn how to drum. I don't know how much of a drummer you were before. Zero. Okay, there you go. And also learn American Sign Language, which I don't know how much you knew of that before. Zero, maybe. Yeah. And also, I should say, you know, you're also sort of holding the responsibility. Your character is a heroin addict, right? You're also holding the responsibility of that community too, which I think, you know, is a lot to tell the story of someone who's struggling with addiction. I mean, the process of putting that film together must have been harrowing.

Yeah, it was very daunting being at the bottom of the hill. Yeah. Very, very daunting. I think, like, the deal you make is this. It's like, the downside is you, you're going to lose your life for a year. Yeah. This was also before you were married. It was. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So you can actually commit in a very different way. But this was like, yeah, you lose your life, but you get a new one. And so my life for that year was get up, just do my American Sign Language sessions with my amazing teacher, Jeremy Stone, JLS, for a couple of hours,

then go and interview and spend time with people from within that music scene, spend some time with them in the studio and that kind of thing, then go practice the drums for a couple of hours and then go to meetings and A&A meetings and that was when you lay it out like that it's kind of like man that's intense and it was but it was

also such a privilege I always feel like at a certain point in research I feel like it's daunting right when you're at the bottom of the hill is daunting because it's about you and your failure and whether you're going to screw this up and can you do it and I feel like one of the amazing things about research

isn't even so much the stuff you learn but the people you meet, because it allows you to shift focus and go, I'm doing this for you, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hope that doesn't sound pretentious. No. I guess what I mean is, like,

I'm not doing it for you, like, hey, superhero out here with my cape. But I just feel like, this is your experience. You know, like, I want you to see this and feel seen. I want you to see this and feel a little bit here.

And also proud of the work that they helped you learn and put into to you. Yeah, yeah. It's kind of on some level. It's that. I was speaking with, Sir Patrick Stewart, the legendary Patrick Stewart,

who just did a, did a, I don't know who you're talking about. It was, I mean, I was just trying hard not to just turn it into a Q&A session, you know, and I'm with a call of that. But I asked him, and he goes, you know, I always feel like the thing that's unlocked things for me is that I've always felt like I'm doing this for my teachers. It's like, what an amazing way to, like, decenter yourself.

Yeah. And so, yeah, meeting those people, particularly like with the deaf community, you know, learning, not just sign language, but learning a different way of being. Jeremy, my sign instructor told me, he said, you know, we think deaf people think of hearing people as emotionally repressed. And I was like, why is that? He goes, because you guys hide behind words. He goes, when we communicate, we communicate with our whole body. you can't hide in the same way. Sure, you can lie or whatever.

But I remember the first time I started really being able to express myself with ASL and really getting into deep conversations with Jeremy, I'll find myself just tearing up in a different way. I was like, what is happening? But what was amazing was Jeremy and some of the deaf community in New York were part of this project as well.

were part of Relay. Oh, were you able to bring them in? Yes, absolutely, because, you know, that makes me so happy. You meet those people in your career and... You know what it's like what you were saying? It's like, yes, we did the movie where it's about being deaf.

Yeah. Now let's get some of that community into the movie where it's not about that. Yes, that's great, yeah. So... Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so we have that because my character's, you know,

a man in a few words, we kind of realize that actually maybe his best friend is a deaf guy. Maybe actually he's most comfortable talking to his childhood friend in ASL. It's such a privilege to be able to bring people along that you

have connection with. I mean, you kind of did it brilliantly with your album The Long of Eye. I mean, you had these voice memos between the songs and you have all these incredible people I'm sure you've had history and friendships with and

it's obviously very it's an album that is very you have such ownership of it. When I think of that album, I think of you. Also, because there's a visual element that, you know, you want an Oscar for. But, you know, it's, it's great that you also got to bring along these people who I have greatly admired. It just feels like a, it feels like a sense of a community came together to create The Long Goodbye. Yeah. No. Which is really, really wonderful. And I hope you're so proud of that. Oh, thank you. Yeah. It's, it's a weird

one because, you know, that album got born out of, um, a feeling of despair. Yeah. You know, it was born out of a feeling of like, man, the world is in such a crazy place. So many of us feel almost unwanted in our own countries. If you look at what's happening in America right now, you know, so many people that are the lifeblood of the American economy and the foundation stone of the American society are now being told in our welcome or being disappeared or all of this kind of stuff and it was a similar feeling here you know people that lived here their whole lives were being told actually you don't have a British passport you don't have a chance to stay here we can take your passport away you know and um that was really painful and then

I started looking at kind of um south Asian kind of love poetry you know poets like Ghalib and Rumi and Persian poetry and stuff like that and I realize there's such a rich tradition of like heartbreak poetry of like oh I'm not I've been separated from my beloved I feel like I don't have a home any I feel like I've been cast into the shadows by the thing that I'd invested so much of my heart into

and so I think a lot of people were feeling you know about about their country I think a lot of people around the world have been feeling like that From India to the Philippines. I feel that way about America right now. Right, right. It's not just America. It's not just the UK.

It's not just Italy. It's like so many people around the world we're living at a time of change. Felt like, man, am I being dumped by my country? Yes. Yeah. Or actually, should I break up with my country? You know, so many people feeling that.

And so through that kind of poetry, through that poetic tradition, I was able to find a, creative way of processing that that feeling and so the album is a breakup album with with britain you know the first line is britain's broken up with me so yeah no it was it was special doing that and then of course the short film with a neal was you know did those go side by side did you always know that there was a be a short film no not at all not at all you're speaking of community there's um both the director neil karia and myself we have a mutual friend called

Vian Demonsch, who's British director, TV and film director. And he put me and Anil together and said, you guys should just sit down. You guys should just meet. You should talk. And from that, we just started talking and talking. I was like, well, you know, I'm kind of, I'm in the middle of recording an album about this stuff, which is maybe where my head is out, okay, well, keep me posted about that. And what about this?

And just over a series of conversations like this, you know, we just came up with this idea. and Anil is such a gifted director I think what he does is he can take an everyday situation and turn it up to 11 you know, in a way that just it doesn't lose its sense of reality and so yeah that was the thing about the film

it's like you know you're taking very safe for about seven minutes and it's an 11 minute film and then things happen and then the last three minutes is this incredible one shot of you doing a soliloquy basically, which is a spoken word poem from the album. And it's just, it's incredibly impactful. Oh, thank you, man.

I encourage anyone who hasn't seen it to take the 11 minutes that you know you have and watch it. It's really powerful. This is a weird question. I'm not sure how to ask it, but like, how dare you? How dare you? How ding-dong dare you flip this table? The year before you were nominally.

nominated for an Oscar for Best Actor for The Sound of Metal. And I don't know if you know, so you didn't win. What? You did not win. What? But the next year you won. You didn't win. No, no, no, no.

The next year you win for this short film. I mean, it's kind of crazy the way the universe works because, you know, when you're nominated for Best Actor for the Oscars, I mean, it's like, okay, well, this is the shot. And then like the next year, 12 months later, you're being given an award for this other thing way over here. It's just weird. It's crazy.

It's like the universe is being like, yeah, yeah, yeah, I got you. Like, I'm gonna, don't worry. Not that thing. But this thing is so interesting, isn't it? Do you kind of feel like the universe gives you signs? And like, because the thing that I took from that is like, wow, I need to lean more into making my own stuff as well. Yeah.

And I have since then, you know, since then, I've, you know, we just, me and Anil, the director of The Long Goodbye, we made, we made Hamlet, and we made, we made, we made a movie, yeah, we made a movie of Hamlet, it's not out. Okay, this is a very exciting, but it was, but it was partly inspired by exactly what you just, yeah. Shut the front door to the Shume. What? That's so exciting. Just to be clear, this is not a short version of Hamlet. This is a full. No, this is a feature. I love. I love. I love that you're like, we're going to go from this 11-medit film to Hamlet. That's fucking awesome. Yeah, I don't know. I kind of felt like after the long goodbye, the message I felt I was getting from the universe was like, lean into your insanity, man.

Lean into the thing you know you want to do. Do the thing that makes you feel alive. Do the thing that is a risk that feels bold. And like, who knows? And you know what? Sometimes I've done stuff like that and no one has seen it. And sometimes I've done stuff like that, and it's ended up, you know, being seen by a lot of people and getting awarded and all this stuff. So it's like you don't control.

I'm sure you can relate to this. You don't control how well something does, quote, unquote. But the ideal situation is no matter how well or how badly it does, you can stand by your decision of doing it. Wow. I'm definitely keeping my eye out for that. It's really incredible. Thank you. We told me a little bit about Joyland.

Joyland, yes I don't know too much about it Do you know You definitely watch Joyland Okay It's such a good movie So I have a production company It's called Left Handed

And You know Our big thing was like We want to tell Stories aren't being told And so we We got this project From this amazing

Pakistani writer-director called Syem Sadik And He made this film called Joyland And it's I love story between a man and a transgender woman in Pakistan. And, you know, Pakistan is a conservative, religious, Muslim country.

And so this kind of relationship and this kind of story, you know, it was a bit controversial. And the film was actually banned in Pakistan. But it was the first Pakistani film. to go to the Cannes Film Festival. It won the Queer Palm, it won an uncertain regard prize, and then it won the Independent Spirit Award for Best International Feature.

But here's the thing, here's the thing that complicates the narrative. The transgender community is so visible in Pakistan, and it has been for so long. Now, that's not to say that it's a community that doesn't face massive challenges,

social marginalisation, often people are left with little choice, but to do sex work and stuff like that, there's lots of kind of perilous things that come with that terrain and holding that identity in Pakistan. But it is a recognized part of the culture and the society, and it has been for a very long time.

You know, Pakistan has... Longer than we might assume. I mean, longer than here. Wow. By a very long way. You know, they're transgender newsreaders in Pakistan. Oh, wow. Being non-binary is a recognized

a gender identity you can hold on your ID card and your documents in Pakistan actually there's a kind of like according to like folklore and some of the kind of mythology and in a way it's kind of messed up because it's kind of like exoticizing and mythologizing what is like

a very naturally occurring like you know human phenomenon but there's this belief that the prayers of non-binary people and transgender people are more powerful right because God kind of owes them

right and so you do not piss off a transgender person in Pakistan so there's this kind of very particular style for people who

again due to the social marginalisation end up kind of having to do street work or begging where they don't come up to you and go like please can I have a dollar

they come up to you and go hey fucking pay up and people are like oh shit wait a minute let me get my wallet let me get my wallet uh uh uh and they're like pay up right now bitch and it's that kind of energy

which is so fascinating what a complicated like power dynamic and you do it and you give them ten dollars and they go they go yeah may you always have good health and may your kids blossom right and it's that and so because of that the pakistani government started doing this crazy thing where they said man not enough of our population businesses pay their taxes be transgender. So they started this promotion program of trying to get transgender people out

of some of these more marginalized industries and sex work and train them up as tax collectors. Like, the world is so much more complicated and rich and unexpected than you know. And those are the stories we want to tell. You've got to watch Joyland. It's an absolute

banger of a movie. It shows you a world you don't know about and it's just a beautiful love story. And so, yeah, Those are the kind of stories. But if someone's like, no, I've seen the trans tax collector story before. It's a trope that's been done.

Exactly. Listen. Tell me as they knew. That's incredible. I cannot wait to watch that. Yeah, yeah. It's a vibe.

Aren't you so excited when stuff like that comes to you? And you're like, oh, I get to create that? I mean, no, I mean, it's not about me being,

I'm not the creator of things to be a part of it. To be a part of it. Help get it made. To tell you something, it's almost more pleasurable. not being the creator. I know, I'm starting to... Because it's less pressure.

Yeah. And actually you kind of... You know, sometimes when you make something, you're all up in your feelings about like, yeah, but this moment should have been like that and this scene was... But when you're just the cheerleader, when you're just the supporter for something,

you're like, this is beautiful. And you can shout about it without feeling... That's our dad energy coming in. Yeah, you know. Yeah, and also it's like... Imagine how arrogant it would be if I'm sat around and going, My film's amazing.

You can't, you don't going to do that. Not everyone's like that. But someone else's film, you're like, you have to watch this. It's so good. Can I ask how fatherhood's been and if that's changed, like, or I know it's changed a lot. Like, how is... Totally. It's weird, you know, I think in the beginning it was a big adjustment.

Yeah. You know, it was a massive adjustment. And there's a loss as well. right? You lose your independence and you lose the idea of you as an individual, right? Because it's, you become, but then what you gain is you become part of a greater whole, right? And you're in service of something that's bigger than and other than yourself, which is the core of spirituality, which is the core of all purpose in life, right? It's like if you can be in service of something, if you can be part of something that's not just your own ego. Yeah.

I got here today, and I was like, what is in my pocket? And I have my son's socks that I forgot to put on his. I was getting him dressed and I was, yeah, he's 21. But I, there's something so sweet about, like, because I was like, what is going on here? But, like, those are the moments where I actually, those moments make my shoulder to go down. Like, I was so excited to sit down and talk with you. But, you know, I'm nervous. I want it to go well.

I want to make sure you're having a good time. I want to, you know, I have two show suits today. I want to make sure that I have a good meal. And then I found his socks. And I was just like, oh, yeah, like that's, that's. What does it make you think? What is it? It reminds me that all of this is in service of that.

Yeah. And it tightened my heart in a way that I was expecting. Yeah, that's so beautiful, man. Yeah, just those moments where you get that sense of perspective, right? Yeah. um thank you so much for doing this thank you bro i love this chat i love the munch this is that easily the most chill fun normal human podcast i've ever done i'm so glad yeah man this episode of dinners on me was recorded at de schum on portobello road in nodding hill london

next week on dinners on me you know her from iconic films like the english patient the apple TV Plus series Slow Horses, and now from her new dromedy and directorial debut, My Mother's Wedding, it's Kristen Scott Thomas. We dive into her first time directing, what she learned from actor-directors like Robert Redford, and I might ask her about that kiss with Prince. And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinners on Me Plus. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad-free. Just click try-free at the top of the Dinners-On-Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today.

Dinner's On Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our producer in the UK is Charlie Morel with production support from Leaf Troop. Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf. Sam Baer engineered this episode. Hansdale Sheik composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison.

Special thanks to Tamika Balance Kalasni and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week. All right, let's talk about something near and dear to my heart. Building the perfect sandwich. And yes, yes, I take this very. very seriously. Step one. You need a great bread, fresh, crusty, something with character. Step two, Boar's Head oven-gold turkey. Always. It's juicy. It's flavorful. It's the backbone of this

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