Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Sandra Oh on Grey’s Anatomy, Killing Eve & Knowing When to Walk Away

Episode Date: July 28, 2026

Killing Eve and Grey’s Anatomy star Sandra Oh joins the show. Over steak rosti and tomato, peach and ricotta salad, we reminisce over our time together in the Twelfth Night in Shakespeare in the Park and Sandra reflects on her iconic role as Dr. Cristina Yang in Grey’s Anatomy and its legacy. Plus, we get into her chemistry read with Jodie Comer for Killing Eve and her experience doing British theater on the West End, leading The Misanthrope. This episode was recorded at Dorian in Notting Hill, London. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This summer, I'm in London performing in Jesus Christ Superstar at the London Palladium. I'm playing King Herod, which is a role I have never imagined. I'd ever get to say I was playing, but here we are. I'm having a lot of fun. What's interesting about being away for longer stretches of time is that after the excitement of the trip wears off, you start thinking about home, not in a homesick way, just, you know, in a practical way. You realize your home is sitting there empty while you're off having this incredible experience

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My champions, I have sold my chariot on Carvon. It was a lovely SUV, an inexplicably queenly offer. They're even coming to the castle to collect it. Tonight, we feast! An offer you can feast on. Sell your car today on Carvana. Pick up fees may apply. Hello, it's Jesse Tyler Ferguson.

You know her from Grey's Anatomy. You know her from Killing Eve. She's currently working here in London at the National Theater in the Misanthrop. It's Sandra O. She was saying, 10 years ago, I was watching your show, and I was going to get married to this guy, and he didn't want me to work.

He was like, I'll take care of you. But she was saying how much this episode, and I think the character affected her. And then she goes, I left him. I became a lawyer. And I was just like, good for you. This is Dinner's On Me, and I'm your host, Jesse, Tyler Ferguson.

Today I'm a Dorian nodding Hill. London. If you're a Londoner who likes to eat out, you've likely either eaten here or dying to get one of its coveted reservations. The bistro is best described as modern British cuisine and its woodfire grill and the food that comes off of it is no doubt a standout. It's developed quite a following beyond the neighborhood and has proved that by its Michelin Star. Now a little birdie told me that Sandra likes this place, so I dropped her name to get one of its coveted tables and she should be arriving any moment so let's

get to the conversation first of all I can't believe that the entire time that we were together that I did not get you on the podcast last summer I know I'm glad it's happening now it's so exciting happening now we have so much more to talk about we have so much more to talk about we're better friends because we met basically

officially for the first time at a Vanity Fair photo shoot for 12th night because I mean I've seen you around we have mutual friends but we had never like really hung out. Correct. And the first thing you said to me

was that you listened to the podcast. Yes. So I was like thrilled. I was like, oh great, because you're going to get asked to be honest. I'm so happy. And here we are in London.

I know. I know. In London. And you're on stage and I'm on stage. And it's just so exciting. And then we could just spend some time together. I know.

I mean, it's such a bonus. We've gotten to see each other. This is our third day in a brother. We've seen each other. I came to see you in the midst and throw up on Wednesday. You came to see me on,

Jesus Christ Superstar, yesterday, and now today it's Friday. First of all, you were so great in their play. Oh, my God, thank you. I love this so much. I did feel watching you on stage. First of all, there's no better stage in the UK than the Little Ten. Yeah, I love it. And I even said to you after the show, like, that space can do so many incredible things.

And there was, there's a moment in the end of your play that I was like, oh, my God, here's that magic that I was waiting for with, you know, the national theater. And I saw... Act 5. Oh, my God. And it's really very special. And I feel like there were moments of 12th night as well that I watched from the bombs or from offstage down.

I'm like, this is magic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I love it. I mean, I... You and John in the hot tub? Just so great. You're just in the hot tub. That's so good.

I mean, that was pretty crazy. That's Sahim. Our director allowed us to... First of all, I mean, the hot tub was his idea. Yeah, yeah. But then John and I brought, I think, the booze and the cocaine and the wheat. We kept adding things to it. Even I was at one point.

It's like, do we need to take away one of these things? No, hi, hi, right. Hello, my love. Hello, hello. No, please too. Yes. Yes, yes. Oh, yes.

I understand you haven't been here. No, I'm so excited. Yeah, excellent. So we can just explain a little bit about. Please. What to look out for when you are ordering, etc. So sharing is the best way to approach to the grumvirate. And things are just from rolling out of the kitchen onto the middle of the table and you can just get stuck in.

Right. But obviously these ones in the top section, they come out as bites. Okay. Right. So if you both want to grab Rossi. The Rossiies are so good, yes. What have you, have you had some of these things you want to try again? They're so delicious.

Rusties. I have as well, I've got a steak rosstees. Oh. More on the menu. A little beautiful strip of sirline steak. You know what? I'm going to have red meat. I have been, I will say, I have only been doing, but the show is so tough.

Yeah. I've been starting to eat meat. You're a little iron deficient. You got to get this one with some iron. Excellent. Let's do it. I have studied in steak. If you weren't up for the one or one and a half time.

You're going to leave with gout. No, no. No, no. Can we please have the crab and globe and oz-choke. Go roasty, the Girolle and black truffle rusty. They're quite small. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then maybe I'll try the steak.

We'll try the steak. Yes, please. Could we do this tomatoes, peaches and ricotta? Oh, yes. Yes. What else do you think? There's a lot that's good here. What steak do we think?

Let's do that and then work out. Oh, let's just do that on the rusty, I think. Let's do that steak rusty. Yeah. Just like a bite. Just a part. Maybe, and then can we get the sea bass? Can't go wrong.

What else do you think? How are we doing? I think that's fantastic. That's good. It just depends how hungry you are. Let's just start. Let's start there. Some brilliant flavors running.

Cool. If there's something that you feel like we have to try that we haven't ordered. Oh. Well, definitely. I'll take care of your rest. Thank you so much. Thank you. Speaking of, like, figuring stuff out on stage,

and I want to ask you about this with Misinterrupt, too, because I just feel like so much. you know, you rehearse something in a rehearsal room, and it feels good. You get to the set. You start working stuff out in that space. And then the audience comes in, and they tell you what's working and what's not working. And then you have another whole set of, like, I don't know, adjustments to make. With, you know, a play like, I mean, you know, Misanthrope, obviously Moliere comedy,

but it's been adapted by Martin Krimp. Is that a name? Yes, Martin Krimp, yes. And beautifully directed by Indu. who's the artistic director at the National and the director of this play when I was doing my show there last summer she was the incoming director

as the outgoing director was coming in so I got to meet her a little bit and work with her a bit she's such a visionary yeah she is amazing I imagine that you know that time in front of an audience especially in your previews was it something that you were still figuring

out no no dude I feel like I I discovered something yesterday oh yeah yeah yeah yeah I realized that people were laughing on a place that they really shouldn't be laughing. And I'm like, oh, it's because I'm saying it to her. And so I'm going to throw the end of the line with a gesture. And then they stopped laughing.

And you killed the laugh. Yeah, killed the laugh. Come in, my darling. Come in. Oh, beautiful. Thank you. This is so delicious. You get two of them.

I just can't eat caviar. I'm so sad. But I can eat that. You can eat this. Here, put this closer to you. By the way, I want to say, I saw you outside before you came in, and true to form, you were carrying food in a bag. You were the person in the 12th night cast who set the tone of, it's cool to pack a lunch. Every day, you would come in, you do meal prep.

I assume you do meal prep at home. And you would bring in these delicious looking meals. and also the most adorable bag. And me and Lupita were like, first of all, that looks delicious, but also what is that bag? It looks so cute. So both, and you're like, I know the woman who makes these. She's a friend of mine in Canada.

Oh, no, no. She's a friend of mine, but she's Canadian. Okay, she's Canadian. I know that I ordered it from Canada. So Lupita and I then placed orders with you for these bags. I know. Lupita gets hers. I know.

bringing it in. I'm like, oh, I can't wait to get mine. I can't wait to get mine. Yeah, I'm sorry. Customs. Somehow got stuck in customs. Customs. Crushed and crushed. Crushed and customs. Crushed. But when it finally came, I was very excited. I used it all the times. But I was very pleased to see you bring your caring. I was like, did you bring a lunch to your lunch? And the answer is yes. Okay. I did because I just need extra protein in case. I get it. I want to know what your pre-show ritual. It's like when you do theater, right,

Eight shows a week. It's like the type of energy that you need and the type of maintenance, I feel the closest. I mean, I don't do sports at all. But the kind of conditioning. Conditioning. And just monitoring your protein intake monitoring and all that stuff is for real. The biggest misconception about people who do theater is that we only work a few hours every night. Oh my God. And it really pisses me off. No. Because it's all day you're,

you're preparing to do that. Yes. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Sandra looks back at the audition that launched her career and explains why saying no at exactly the right moment helps her land Graze Anatomy. Okay, be right back. Support for today's episode comes from Square, the system that fixes one of the biggest headaches in running a business. Starting a is exciting. Running it is where things get complicated. You are juggling payments, inventory, staff, scheduling online orders, reports, and somehow you were still supposed to serve customers. Square brings all of that into one place. Whether you're selling lattes, cutting hair, detailing cars, or running a design studio, Square helps you run your business without running yourself into the ground.

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Spider-Man. This Thursday We're faced with a threat. That can be anyone. The world may have forgotten Peter Parker. I'm just a neighbor, friendly neighbor. But he hasn't forgotten them.

Sometimes Spider-Man has to do the hard thing. That's my responsibility. Talk to Banner? I didn't know you could get that big. Spider-Man, brand-new day in theater's Thursday. And we're back with more dinners on me. You grew up doing theater, right? went to, so you, that was always part of your, you're doing.

Like, that's how you found love with acting with theater. Right. Up in Canada. Yes. Okay. But you started doing film pretty young, right? Yeah, you know, it's like, I started young, you know, just like in school, plays and stuff. But I was a part of this, like, kid, kids, student theater troupe.

And in that troop, oh, my goodness. They just keep coming. Yes. Wow. Look how pretty that is. That's the steak one Thank you Oh my God, thank you so much

Look at that truffle It looks like... Look at that truffle Look at that flower You see that little mushroom? I love mushrooms But I started working on camera When I was a teen

Yeah What was the diary? What was it called again? But that was actually after theater school But when I was a teenager Because I lived in Ottawa And because I spoke French My French was much better than

they did all the industrial videos there. Oh. So I did so many industrial videos. You had camera experience at a young age. I caught my teeth, yes, I did. Because that's something that's, you know, it's definitely a learned thing to even be in front of a camera. But, I mean, I imagine that doing that at a young age was probably very helpful.

And, like, I mean, if you're, because the movie you did at 14, 14, 14, 15? The character was 14. Right. I was 20. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. I mean, 21. But that's young.

Yeah, it was. That experience, the diary of Evelyn Laos. So it was based on Evelyn Laos' book, A Runaway Diary of a Street Kid. So it was a pretty harrowing, honestly, story about her life on the streets from 14 to 17. And it changed my life. It changed my life in so many ways. It was formative in so many ways. I remember when that audition came around, I was in, I had just finished first year.

at the National Theater School. And basically, a friend of my sister, like basically in the local paper, and it was like open casting call for a young Asian woman who can play ages 14 to 17. And then I auditioned for six months. Really?

Yeah, man, I would lie because you can't do that in theater school, right? And I would take an overnight bus from Montreal to Toronto and then sleep in the bus. station and then just hang around and do an audition. You know what I mean? At like whatever in Toronto and then take the bus and come back.

And I did that for six months. And then I eventually got the part. It was just such a formative experience. It's not so easy to find, but I feel like... I watched some clips of it that I found on YouTube. I mean, it's really, it's really striking to watch people. Because I've been a fan of your work before I knew you. And like, but then to watch a friend of yours, like,

At such a young age, doing it. You know, and like I see, I see you in it. And I, but it's like, it's your voice. But like, it's a snapshot of you in such a different time of your life. And before, you know, all the success that I know you from. And because I first became aware of you was sideways. That was the first thing that I really fell in up with you. And it's so wonderful to see these moments before that, that great moment,

where you are showing such incredible promise as a young actor. It's like, it's really lovely. I mean, I would love to watch the whole thing, actually. Yeah, it's a tough watch. Yeah. With Grey's Anatomy, that being such a huge show, and Shonda Rhimes is so good about diversity, just in general. I mean, was that a character that they always knew was going to be Asian?

Was it something that you had to audition for with her other? Was it something that they created around you? when I auditioned for Graze, I had taken off a couple of years just to do film. Didn't work. But that's what Simon has happened. I was, so that was true.

I did four films and maybe worked three weeks. Do you know what I mean? And I was just like, that's just not enough for me. I need to be working. And so I'm like, let me go back to television. I had done seven seasons on Arles. And so I got... Oh my God. Sandra.

I can't even believe I stepped over that because that you were so fucking funny on Arlis. Dude, I cut my cheek learning how to be funny on that show, man. Because you hadn't really been given an opportunity to be funny yet. No, no, I had never done television. Although you're pretty funny and sideways. Was Arles before Sideways? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Oh, okay. Yeah. I moved from Canada to do Arlis. Yeah. Arlis is hilarious. Deep cuts. Deep cuts. Yes, so good.

So good. Okay. So Grace Nadda, but you wanted, so you're like, I'll go back. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, so then this, this pilot came along. I'm like, okay. And then I actually, I know I've spoken about this before. I actually was auditioning for Chandra Wilson's part for Bailey. So I didn't know you audition for Bailey. Yes. And then I was like, I know what, for me at that point, I was like, I know what that character's about. What are the characters are, are there any other characters? And they say, oh, the character of Christina has not been. And for me, I was like, that's it. That's the antagonist. Do you mean?

Like, it's like, clearly Meredith is the protagonist. That's the antagonist, at least in the pilot. And I'm like, I want to do that. And then I said, I'll come back in, but I only want to audition for Christina. And then all this crazy shit, it doesn't work this way anymore. I don't know if it works this way anymore. But I came in, I did a work session with Shonda and Betsy, and Peter Horton, who was our director.

And so that was before the, you know, the thing where you have to sign away your life and you do all that stuff. They make you sign like a seven-year contract before you go into your final audition. Correct. So we did a work session, which was great. Kind of got all the jitters out. And so also that they could know what I was doing. Right. And then the casting director said, your manager is calling.

My manager said, leave. Marsha said leave. Leave. We can't close your deal. And I was just like, oh, okay. I guess I'm supposed to leave. Bye-bye. Wow.

And then so I left and I did not audition for the network. That was also, no, can I also tell you, it's also like, it's like, I'm sure you do too. Yeah. You need to hit certain moments in your life where you've got to force yourself to say no. Yeah. Or force yourself. It's like, I want to break through in some way. And that is a risk.

You're going to have risk. Well, it's investing in yourself in a way that's very scary because you don't know if it's going to pay off. Yeah. Because especially in that world, like, You know, there are people who are waiting in the wings that are willing to do the thing you aren't willing to do. And there's just so many. But, like, trusting that you have that special thing that no one else can bring and that they know that is it's a belief in trusting yourself that's very hard to find comfort in, for sure. Yeah.

Well, then how did it go from that point to you actually getting cast? And they just cast me. It's because I had that work session so they could see what I could do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's all that mattered was that John DeBetzie and Peter could see what I was and see what I could do. And that they ultimately ended up kind of creating, you know, really, like, half the cast was, like, from theater and half the cast was from television. Yeah. Oh.

Yeah. It just made a good combo. Oh, my love. Oh. Thank you. Thank you. Can you have that? Yes, I can have a scalp. Look at this.

I don't understand what's happening here I don't know but eat it warm What is this? Is this seaweed? Yeah, I think so Oh my God, I love seaweed Look how beautiful this is Gorgeous

I feel like that's too big for me They would pop in my mouth Oh my god, that seaweed tastes so good Is it? Mmm, oh, hmm It's like caramelized on the outside You're gonna love that Ooh

That's beautiful Yeah, beautiful We've got splicotter and strachina cheese, a blend of that with some windy chilis and olives. Isn't that so good? I'm starting to get to this point with Modern Family because I've been off a bit long enough now that it feels like it's enough in the rear view that I can look at it objectively. Mm-hmm. It's something I'm proud of, but also that, I mean, it's crazy because there are like the whole episodes. I'm like, I don't remember shooting that because it was so long ago.

I can only imagine that that's the case with Grace. I mean, like, we both were on shows. This is a very, like, rare thing for actors to be able to share this in common. But you were on for a decade. I was on for a decade plus a year, 11 years. That's a huge chunk of time. And something that, you know, actors don't rarely get to experience is, like, a steady job, which is something that we got to have.

I mean, do you... First of all, do you remember how it was for you to navigate coming from like basically, you know, being a great indie film actress to like something that was like you were in people's living rooms every night and that feeling of accessibility that people felt like they had with you? And what it was also to be a part of something that was such a cultural, so zeitgeisty. Mm-hmm. Okay, that's a big question, and I think I'm going to start answering it backwards. Okay. Because my castmate, Paul Chihadi, he's starting to watch a modern family with his son. Oh, really? Right? And because he's just starting to, because it's just the right show for him,

and they're having such a nice time watching it. And the impact that you can feel this far, out now, you realize that something happened. And you can only get that after years. With distance. Yes, the years. Whereas like, oh, here it is. My friends, and watch it with his

11-year-old kid, because it's like, that's their show. That's their show. And that means something. I feel like, as it's still happening, the reverberations of Grey's Anatomy and the character of Christina, I am, I didn't not have the quality or the depth of the gratitude while you're going through it, as I do now.

Now let's take a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Sandra reveals how she knew it was time to leave Grace Anatomy. And I recall a hilarious on-stage mishap from our Shakespeare in the Park run. Okay, be right back. This happens to me all the time. I find myself lying in bed, my thoughts are racing, my brain will not turn off, and I start to panic about getting to bed because my alarm is going to go off in a matter of eight hours, now it's five hours, now it's four hours, where is this night going? I haven't slept to wink. This is exactly why Catherine Nicolai helps me so much with her podcast. Nothing much happens. Each episode is a cozy, calming bedtime story with nothing stressful, nothing dramatic, and nothing you need to keep track of. It's just a

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For years, a deranged man in Wichita, known as the poet, stalked Ruth Finley. He sent her letters, gifts, and poems. The Wichita police put everything they had into Ruth's case, but got nowhere. The poet was always two steps in front of us, and we just didn't know why. And the city was already living in fear under the way. watch of another monster who called himself BTK. And he also had a thing for poetry. Could we really have two different people? But no one could have guessed how this would end. That's one of those Hitchcock endings that we did not expect. From Sony Music Entertainment and

New metric media, this is the poet. I'm Rachel Brown. The poet is available now on The Binge. Search for it wherever you get your podcast to start listening today. Subscribers to the Binge can listen to all episodes, all at once, ad free. Well, hello, my name is Simon Mayo. Well, hello, my name is Mark Kermot. Friendly, Chortle. On this week's take, what's going on? Well, we've got something for everyone.

We have a review of Pinocchio Unstrong, which is a horror movie. We have Ask E Gene, which is a documentary, and we have a new animated version of Animal Farm with our very special guest. It's director Andy Circus. Do not miss a minute. It's the take. And we're back with more dinners on me.

young people come up to me all the time. It was at the opera when I did the opera at the Met last year. She came up to me and she goes, I have to tell you something. And it's always that. I have to tell you something. And you're going, okay, tell me. And she was saying, 10 years ago, I was watching your show and I was going to get married to this guy. And, you know, he didn't want me to work.

He was like, I'll take care of you, blah, blah, blah. And she was quoting this scene, which, of course, you're going, what scene is that? What scene is that? What scene is that? And then I'm like, she said something like, oh, I remember that scene. It's a scene with Burke. I'm telling him, it's like a, in the last season, actually, in season 10,

Burke comes back and actually offers her this incredible opportunity in Switzerland, which she then takes, which Christina then takes. Anyway, so I'm like, oh, I understand what she's, what episode she's talking about. But she's saying how much this episode, and I think the character affected her. And she goes, I left him, I became a lawyer. And I was just like, good for you. Good for you. Whatever was going on in your life, it was not enough.

And that guy who was saying that you are not going to be who you're going to be and fulfill your destiny and go become a lawyer. lawyer, leave that. Yeah. Leave them. Right? And I just was like, you know, this is how many years out and you just go, okay, you try your best to plant seeds all along the way, all the time. We're not just doing this because, or at least I feel it, I'm not just doing this because, I don't know, it feels good, paycheck or whatever. I just feel it's a waste of time. It's a waste of time, especially now. You know what I mean?

what we need to do is just plant seeds for things to grow that hopefully some young woman, when she's like 25, decides, fuck that shit, man. I'm going to leave you and I'm going to become my own woman and be in charge of my life and not depend on you. And I don't know if you can be a part of helping someone's growth. Yeah. That's it. Yeah. No, 100%.

I mean, I definitely, I would get. must feel that. I would have conversations like that, not only while the show is happening, but even more so now, yeah, I mean, it's very meaningful. You know, you want your work to live outside of a time capsule and you want it to be able to affect people for years to come. I mean, the thing that blows my mind about your time on Grays is that the show is still going on. Yeah, it's incredible. And that's like, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, I don't know if it's broken some sort of, it must have broken some sort of a record, but like, Oh, yeah, I wonder.

I mean, it's got to be close if it hasn't. Over 20 years. Yeah, I think it's 22. Oh, my gosh. I mean, it's incredible. How did you know, I'm sure you've answered this question a million times, but, you know, with modern family, I mean, we were told when it was time to go, you know, I, uh, I thought we were going to end it 10 years.

We were going to end a 10, and then they decided to do another year, so we ended at 11, but like they told us it was, you know, we ended it together as a group. I mean, that's amazing. That's amazing. That's very special. Was it hard for you to say it's time for me to move on? I mean, I know a lot of people do because that show has had, you're not the only person who's left that show.

I mean, so many actors have, and there's been such a turnover there. And it's also a testament to Shonda's writing that, like, it can continue on with new characters. But, I mean, as an actor, I imagine that that was probably exciting for you to move on after 10 years, but also was it terrifying at all? I feel like you know who I am as an actor. Yeah. One, I was really very fortunate. Two, one, you build the relationships, hopefully for the circumstances to happen, right? where when it came to, I think,

end of season eight or nine, she took me aside because we were all negotiating and she goes, what do you want to do? And I said, let me think about it. And I really, really, really thought about it. And it is the, you know, the creative being will dictate.

You know what I mean? And you've got to follow it. You've got to ask it. what do you want to do? What should I do? What do you want to do? And it was like I felt very much like I did my job. I really did my job.

I feel like I created a whole character. I feel I grew the character 10 years' time where it's a believable growth. Like people do grow in 10 years. And I think she really did grow. And the privilege was to actually plan an exit. and all the writers to be able to plan the, to support that. And I know that it's extremely rare to have.

So that was a real, real gift. Which is incredibly satisfying not only for you, but for all these people who have invested time in your character. Yes, yes, yes. And where's from a time where I don't know if that's, you can't just make 22 years happen. No. No.

You know, we were on Intellibreve, in network television when it ran a completely different way. It doesn't run that way anymore. So to be able to establish, just even honestly, I mean, I guess sociologically, psychologically, where you meet a show per week, you invest, an audience invests in a show, in characters in a completely different way. So you don't necessarily have that bond. Yeah.

You know, but people have a bond with modern. and family, they have a bond with Grace Anatomy. I mean, do you remember watching TV as when we were younger and, like, you'd have to wait a week before the next episode would come on? Dude. And you'd be like, what's going to happen? Yeah. Wait, I'm forgetting. Was killing Eve a bingeable series?

Was that something that was, they dropped all the episodes at one time? I know I watched it that way, but I don't know if it was because I was watching later. No, I, first, it came out on AMC. Okay. So that probably was like. one a week. I think maybe. But then it came on every single stream.

But then it was like when it was on other platforms. Yeah. Yeah. Which is also very different. It's a show like that. Very different. Different. Also different.

A fan base too. Yeah. Yeah. I love my K.E. people. Jesus Christ. This show was good. That was a, that was one. I was like, that is a show.

Like when people say like what kind of show do you want to do next? I'm like, I want to do like a killing age. Good. Like that is like the template for like. I want people because it was funny, it was smart, it was sexy,

yeah. It was so well written. Yes. I mean, Phoebe Waller Bridge. Yeah, yeah, yeah, come on. This was after Fleabagg, right? Yeah, it was between Fleabeg One and Fleaback, too.

Okay. I mean, God, what a time to, like, be working with her. No, yeah, everything was just kind of popping off. So it was a very, very special time, and it was also, it was also, it was also a time where I think audiences also were really, really ready

to see two female protagonists, to see two women falling in love. To see two women completely entwined each other in a very bad relationship. Yeah. I mean, I was really drawn to just your character's confusion about her attachment to this psychopath.

Yes. I mean, it was really so intricate in ways that, you know, it went beyond, like, great writing. It was like... No, no, no. Yeah. It was psychologically just so interesting. And you and Jody Kromer together were just... Yeah.

We had great chemistry. Great chemistry. And I, I mean, at least from a viewing standpoint, it was like immediate that chemistry. Did you Did you guys Chemistry together? Yeah. I remember Jodie

She came to L.A. And we were in some tiny little room in like the valley And I remember I bring props And we were saying, it was so crazy, you know Setting up cameras because she had to Zoom But we really had to meet. We really had to meet.

And And it was great. It was great. You know, she has she was so young at the time and she also has this gravitas, you know, that Villanelle had to have.

Had to have. And then would, you know, pop up in these absurd moments as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. When we started 12th night rehearsals, you were basically off book, completely. And you we started tablework,

which is, you know, the part of the theatrical process where you sit around a table and you talk about the play for a while. and you were quoting parts of the play, you were like, you were really, you had really done your homework. Is that, is that a way that you always like to work? Or is that specific to theater? Because you were so well prepared, but yet still, you know, there's being prepared and then it's also like, being prepared, but also like in preparation of being open to everything, which is what you were doing, you know. That's exactly it.

It's like sometimes being prepared, I'm realizing can kick you in the ass because sometimes you're called on to do things where you can't prepare and I get really discombobulated. But like, let's say for like the misanthrope, I started learning this shit like in February. It's too hard. Yeah. One, I think at this point in my 50s, it's like I need to learn things in a completely different way. But mostly it's exactly what you're saying. I'm going to spend the maximum time in rehearsal when you have the freedom to be bad, not to be reaching for the basic, not to be reaching for text,

not to be reaching for the basic things. Like you have got to have thought about it. So you have four to six weeks of just being free. Yeah. Right? And so those things have to be not taking so much of your brain energy so the inspiration can come. And then you can also then give that energy to another actor. Yeah.

Right? Because it's not just yours. When you do it, it gives it the other person. So it's like example, it's like if you're tense, right, in the rehearsal space, it makes the room tense. Right. But if you're loose, you're easier fucking up. Yeah. You're just easier making mistakes or easier.

And then honestly, the channel is just more open. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. No. That was a very loose rehearsal room in the best. way possible, I think. Wait, did you watch because they did a live stream of 12th night

or, you know, they recorded it for PBS. Did you watch it? No. Oh, wait, you went to a screening. Dude, where were we? We got, we made, we had a screen. You hosted a screening. Yes, I hosted a screening with a bunch of our other cast members and it was great. But now, you're, the misanthropes can be recorded for national. Oh my God,

we're going to do the live recording for NT Live next week, which I'm really excited about. Because it's also like people, like my family in Canada gets to see it. You know what I mean? It's just like it's going to film brilliantly too because it's so beautiful. When we were doing 12th night streaming, because they recorded, I think, two or three performances over a weekend. Yeah, they're not recording much at all. No, no, I know.

The National Theater does like, we didn't do here we are now. I'll tell you why later. But I mean, I know they only do, I think maybe one performance and they maybe do some pickups. or something. Yeah. But were you in your head at all when we were doing it? I definitely was like, oh, this is the one they're recording. Oh, I don't.

John and I were so in our heads. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. I don't kind of really remember it. Good for you. No. I was very aware of like where the cameras were. Oh, really?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I don't really remember it. No. Do you think he'll be aware? Like, it will be, it's probably similar for it. I feel like, I feel really locked into the misanthroat.

Yeah. Really locked into the misanthrope. And the kind of thing where it's like the play has a life of its own and you know yourself enough and you know it enough, it's like, that's not going to serve anything unless you really do the play. Right. Right for the audience. And it's just like you would not believe how big my expressions are. I mean, it's a big thing. It's like, I mean, come on.

It's like, but it's just like. Like, that's what it is. It's for theater, yeah. It's for theater, yeah, yeah, yeah. But again, it's also, like, if you're in the truth, that's all that matters. It's just the thing that I was always worried about, it's like certain things can't pull me out. And like working at the Delicourt Theater specifically, you're outside, you're in the elements. Do you remember the performance that they had, it was closed caption?

Yeah. So we had, for the hearing and pair, like, we had the subtitles. And there was always one part of the play that I was always just a little iffy on my lines. And I was always kind of just sort of grasping for it. And I thought in my head, tonight I don't have to worry about that because it will literally be projected on a screen right in my eye line. I'm not even going to think about it. So I didn't. That part of the play came up and I was like, I'm not going to worry about it.

I'm just going to say the line that's written on the screen. Little did I know there was someone backstage typing what we were saying. It wasn't preloaded with our dot. dialogue. No. As we were talking, they were typing it. So I get to the line that I'm always fudging up a little bit, and I sort of paused to wait for the line to come up. Nothing comes up because I'm not speaking. So I say my last line again, thinking that will prompt the prompter to say the line. Oh my God. I don't remember what my cue line is. Capil reminded me recently, I can't remember what it is. But I basically repeated the same line of Shakespeare text about

19 times. Oh my God, seriously. And then I started to get the giggles. I was just like, and Everyone on stage was looking at me like I was having some sort of a stroke. And, like, Lupita was like, what's going on? Oh, my God, oh, my God. John and Capil were laughing at me. And then I think I realized in the moment that what I was saying was being typed. So I said out loud, because at this point, they're honest. It's like, what's happening?

You're just saying the same line over and over and over. I think I said, oh, it's just typing what I'm saying. And up on the screen said, oh, it's just typing. Shakespeare, by the way. I was just typing what I'm saying, dot, dot, dot, dot. And finally, I said, I was like, okay, so I set the line one more time, and then I remembered what it was, and then I was back on track. And Cynthia Nixon was there that night.

Oh, my God. And she came backstage, and she said, oh, I thought that was a funny joke you put in for, because it got a laugh. Yeah, yeah. But she's like, I thought you were doing a funny joke for the close caption. I was like, I wish I was that smart. Like, what are, like, weird Andy Kaufman type, like, performance piece to do.

I remember hearing that happen. I know everyone was like, what happened? Yeah. So that's all to say, that's why I was worried about when they taped for PBS. This is some of the best food I've had in London. Oh, say that again.

This is some of the best food he's had in London. Right? It's great. Oh my God, Sandra, today. I kind of overbooked myself. Oh. You have a show to do, Jesse, tonight. You have to do a show.

And I have to pack, too, because I'm leaving on two days. Oh, my goodness. I know, I know. But we did an announcement for True. So I was on morning, I was on morning radio this morning. Oh, good for you. And then I had a commitment. I had another press thing to do.

You what? And I was like, I'm not going to be able to get from point A to point B in time. And I was like, well, I'll just like, I'm fine hopping on the tube. And they're like, no, no, no, no. It's like unreliable. I was like, but if I'm in a car, I'm like, traffic is not okay. I was like, I'll just get on a lime bike. It's fine.

They hired me a, it's called a limo bike. What's up? I'm going to show you a photo. Wait. This was how I got to... Is there a tandem? Oh. I was on the back of a motorcycle.

They have a helmet. They have like a jacket for you. That's really smart. It's really smart. London traffic is... They have... I didn't wear the jacket. But like they wear a jacket.

Like, I guess in case you, like, fall off. Like, it doesn't, like, skin your arm. Yeah. Gloves. I only... I was like, I'm fine with just the helmet. So I just wore the helmet. But it's just a guy who...

And he has, like, one of those microphones that you would have, like, on a helicopter so we could talk to you. Okay. And I had my helmet on. And I... But the thing is, like, we're zipping through London, which was amazing because it's a beautiful day.

And I got there, like, in plenty of time. But the thing that I, It was so, because I had two handles on either side of the bike to, like, sort of sit back. It was like, plenty of room. Yeah. But just because of the way the seat was, like, I kind of, like, kept, like, moving toward his butt. And I was like, my crotch is going to be, like, like, I mean, if I had known the person better, I would have, like, put my arms around him, you know?

Like, that would have been the most comfortable way to do it. But it's a complete stranger. It's, like, basically getting intimate with your Uber driver. And I was, like, my balls are going to be, like, up against his butt in, like, a moment. Like, because, like, it would stop. And I would kind of like slide down and I would like move back. And like, anyway, that's how I arrived to, um. Well, that's a pretty good way to arrive.

Yeah, I felt very fancy. Yeah, yeah. So good. So good. This tomato's delicious. Can I just tell you this is a brilliant form? I remember thinking this as well. Yeah.

The form of just having lunch or a meal with someone is very relaxing. You're not in a studio. You know what I mean? And you're a great interviewer. Well, thank you. Can I just tell you? Because you also help make, we're in the middle of a fairly busy restaurant. Yeah.

And there's a lot of people. Yeah. And I feel totally relaxed. Oh, good. Because it's bananas. Yeah. But I don't know. Well, I think it's also you.

You make me feel relaxed. Well, we also know each of us. That's helpful. I've been loving, that's the great part about this podcast is I've been able to ask people who I love and admire and already friends with to, like, sit down with me. And those have been always the greatest conversations. But also just people that I don't know, that I have, like, I feel like I've gotten the best version of them because they feel comfortable

because it is just a meal. It's been really a lovely experience. You know, and also another thing, I think that you're actually also making a really good acting podcast. Because you have actors come on and we talk about craft in a way where I don't hear people talking about. Yeah. Right? Because it's also like, this is specifically for theater people. Do you know?

I mean, the theater people I definitely like have a different conversation with than people who maybe haven't done it. They're always still very interesting conversations. But I do feel like for people who are, you know, who love and their soul to be on stage, it's always sort of has like an undercurrent of something a little bit more. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

It is that shared love. You can always tell someone's from that tribe where it's just like, oh, God, love it, love it. Yeah. Yeah. I know, I know. I love you so much. I'm so happy you did this. We've got to send everybody pick and they're going to be so jealous that we're hanging out.

Yes, I know. I love you. I adore you. You do not need to pay for any of this. Dinner is on me. Oh. Oh, yeah. Thank you.

This episode of Dinners on Me was recorded at Dorian and Notting Hill London. Next week on Dinners on Me, you know him from Netflix's Baby Reindeer and HBO's Halfman. It's Richard Gad. We talk about the surprising downside of overnight success, the self-doubt that nearly kept him from making his new show, Halfman, and what kinds of stories he wants to tell next. And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinner's On Me Plus. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early,

they'll also be able to listen completely ad-free. Just click Try Free at the top of the Dinners On Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinners On Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay.

Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf. Sam Baer engineered this episode. Hans Dale She composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tamika Balance Kalasni and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.