Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Sara Bareilles

Episode Date: August 1, 2023

Sara Bareilles, the star of Peacock's "Girls5Eva" and "Waitress" on Broadway, joins the show. Over Israeli pastries and Tunisian salad, she shared what it was like being bullied as a kid, how she copes with her anxiety, and why it was so important to wear a specific dress to the Tony Awards. This episode of Dinner's On Me was recorded at K'Far in Williamsburg, Brooklyn.  Want next week’s episode now? Subscribe to Dinner’s on Me PLUS. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, but you’ll also be able to listen completely ad-free! Just click “Try Free” at the top of the Dinner’s on Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. A Sony Music Entertainment & A Kid Named Beckett production. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

This episode of Dinners on Me was recorded on June 14, 2023. Hi, it's Jesse. Today on the show, you've seen her on Girls 5EVA and on Broadway in Waitress, Sarah Bareilles. We'll talk about growing up feeling our downciders and her acapella group at UCLA that sounds like real life pitch perfect. We had crazy costumes. We did our hair. We held this leather and red and like more. Oh my god. It was just completely embarrassing.

This is dinners on me and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. So music is one of those things that really marks time in your life. In 2007, I was 32 years old and single. My first TV job, a sitcom called The Class, had just been canceled and I was filled with simultaneous hope for what was next and fear about what was next. My soundtrack for that year was Little Voice, the debut album of this new artist named Sarah Bareilles. Those songs scored that transition year for me, and to this day, every time I hear Love Song or Gravity, I am immediately transported back to my tiny apartment in Silver Lake,

right before I shot the pilot of Modern Family, right before I met Justin, right before this major chapter of my life was about to begin. If you told me then that Sarah Burellis and I would eventually find our way to becoming friends, I wouldn't have believed it. People who can create music like Sarah does are just their unicorns to me and I was so excited when our schedule is finally aligned and we were able to sit down and have a meal together. Hi, I'm like, I need to match the curtains. Isn't that great? It's so pretty.

Does she feel like you're in like photos you find, like, dwell, magazine or something? Yes. I asked Sarah to join me at Kaffar and it's Rayleigh Restaurant and Bard Williamsburg. It's inside the Hawkson Hotel, so it's very hip And the food is so, so good. I highly recommend the brunch. We're still talking about the Tunisian salad and these Israeli pastries known as burecas. Okay, let's get to the conversation.

Wait, what was your first bread I showed that you saw? Falsettos. Really? Now, Genson, it's a little bit weird. Are you having so much fun making this show? I am having a really good time because I'm, first of all, everyone that's been on so far

is someone that I already really like and kind of know because I have like major imposter syndrome. What the hell talk about that? Yes, me too. Hi. Hi, good for you. Good for you. Beautiful, welcome in.

Thank you. Thank you. Do you have any questions? I've got answers. I've heard some things. Yeah. Tell me if this is true. Yeah. That your Jerusalem bagels are super famous.

Super famous. The egg and cheese is your probably top seller here. I would say so. Although like the smoked salmon, it's going to be like my first. OK. And your salads here. Huge. They're big.

They're big. Yeah. I would say. I've heard great things about these two the aerobic salad and then How do you say this? It's a Tunisian salad. It's really really nice I would say more so move with the Tunisian salad and then also the tahina Caesar salad is really really fantastic Okay, can you just talk about the bra? How do you say it's bra? It's breakfast. Yeah, yeah So there's just like very classic savory pastry. Let's definitely try some of these cool to it and then um

I'm gonna do I do a Tunisian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That sounds great. Yeah. But I also think that the grilled cheese sounded delicious. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. Fantastic. Perfect. Is that too much food? No, no honestly. I think it'll be perfect for the book. No, we're fine. Okay. Sounds good. I'm gonna get those rolling for you. We'll think perfect for the book. Now we're fine. Sounds good. I'm going to get those rolling for you. Thank you. You need anything else you'll let me know? Great. Thank you. Thank you.

The last time I saw you was just a few days ago on the carpet of your trip back home. I love the most iconic photos. I think we're going to end up with from that night. Let's talk about this. So Sarah, many people already know this, wrote this musical waitress, a few nights ago, a live capture of the stage production premiered at the Tribeca Film Festival.

Sarah invited me to come. I was thrilled to be there. And so I'm on the red carpet and I get pulled into this group shot with the entire creative team of waitress. And just so people know, it's one of the first. It's the first all female department heads of a creative team of a broader musical. Right, right, right.

And so I'm being pulled into this group of powerhouse women. And I'm like, I've never been in the show. I am a consumer of the show. I've seen it five times, but I'm not a part of the show. I should not be in this photo. I was begging to leave. And Sarah was holding on to me, enforcing me to be, which I was thrilled about,

because I'm a fan of all of these women. But I was like, one of these things is not like the other, and it's me. It was really funny. But the first time I met you in person was when we were both at the opening of She Loves Me, which was the same season as me doing fully committed and you doing waitress. Yep.

You were not in waitress at that time. You were, you had just written the show, just, you had just written the show. They just shouted out. You were the composer and lyricist, right? You were at the lyrics as well? Yeah. And Jesse wrote the book. Yes.

And I remember coming up to you at the opening night, she loves me and introduced myself. And you were just so warm and effusive and generous, and you didn't know me from Adam, but like, you were so... Right, I was very unfamiliar with you. I'm not a fan at all, and was acting warm. Right, I mean, you did a very good job at it. I was like, oh, she's a really good actress. So the world of waitresses, sort of like,

where we became friends, I think. You had played the role on Broadway, but you were able to be part of the live capture and play the role of Jenna, the lead in this live capture. Opposite of, I didn't know this at the time. The guy who played your husband is your fiance. Yes, that's true. I did not know that.

Oh, you did. I did not know that was Joe. You talked about Joe. I didn't know that that was Joe. Yeah, that's Joe. Talk to me about like what that night was for you, it's sitting in that audience, full of uber fans. It just was so special, and I felt like getting acknowledged

by Tribeca, which is also this very prestigious iconic New York film institution, to be acknowledged in that way as a musical in the theater community and then to do this really cool kind of like converging of these industries and ending up in time square with this the simulcast. I mean, it was wild. It just felt like we eventized this moment in such a special way that if nothing else, I mean, the hope is that we find a home on a streamer, right? Like that, you know, that we can bring this show to more people. Yeah.

But if nothing else ever happened, I feel full. I feel like that night was, I wouldn't change anything. I loved it. I will never forget how special that was. And I'm so proud of the film. And yeah, this is really amazing. All right, guys, sorry. That's OK.

It's just going to jump in here. This is our brefasine platter. So you've got all three for you that's gonna be the ocean. Okay, now, and olive, and then we have the brown butter and artichoke. It's gonna be our house,

Martinez, and Yemenite pickles, hardwilled egg with a little bit of stew on top. And then we have tomato and onion, like salad on top of some stew as well. It's kind of joy, dig in. We're gonna start y'all with that. Wait, do you just do you?

Yeah, you can dip, you can. You just put different things on different things. I have a little bit of fun and enjoy. Sometimes when there's too many options like this, I do get over one. But am I doing it right? You know, like no, it's gonna all end up in the same place. I'm just gonna rip it.

You started off doing musical theater in high school, was it? Younger than that. My first one was a show called Quilters. Do you know Quilters? Yes, you know Quilters, yeah. I was one of the two young girls in that show. Uh-huh. I was in that show with my sister. And then I did Charlotte's web. And I did Little Shop of Horrors. I did that in high school. Yeah, yeah. I did the mystery Redwood Roode. Okay. But then I took, when I got in high school, I just started singing in our choirs. And then when I went to college, I started kind of focusing on songwriting.

I mean, when I asked Justin and Todd, from what I understand, they graduated a little bit before you did. But Todd said that the Occupyla group had existed since 1992, but then when Sarah came in, it was like, she took it to a whole other level. And then it came like, wow, that's what he says. So it's called top. I didn't hide and say, I don't know. I don't know about that.

We were very focused on choreography, which I think is hilarious. Like we did at Spring Shing for those of you who don't know, it's at UCLA, it's like the Spring Talent show. So everybody, like, Keras Flowers, who then eventually became Maroon V, that was one of the entries of spring thing. But I was in a group called Awaken Acapella,

which sounds like a religious revival group. We were not. But we did like a prayer by Madonna, and we had like such intense choreography. I'm just like, we are a singing group. It was, singing was the last thing. We had crazy costumes. We did our hair. We held this leather and red and like more is more. Oh my God. It was just completely embarrassing. But I loved it. That was the first time I felt like in college, I really like found my people. And I think if I could go back, I would have been a theater major. I was a communications major and I got on my nerves. I thought you were a theater major.

No. I didn't have the confidence. I didn't have the confidence to even pursue music. It really took me a long time to notice that that's actually a place where I thrive. I mean, I felt very private about it for a long time. Do you have a very eloquent way of stating simple things. I find that even in your lyrics, you draw out so much extra emotion and pay those from like super simple things. And you just have a way of communicating in a way that most people are just not gifted

to have. Did you realize that in yourself? Did you journal a lot as a kid? I journal a lot. That's very sweet of you to say. I think I just don't have a big book habularity. No, what I mean is like, and I just want to clarify, what you, I'm saying like, you find words that are not

things I would normally think of to describe things that are simple. I think the exact opposite, you do have a very extensive vocabulary. Oh, wow. I appreciate that. Thank you. Thank you. That's really, really sweet.

I was bullied in school as a kid. I'm a kid. So I wouldn't change that. Like, I actually think it really nurtures this sense of empathy and compassion for the outsider, because no one, it sucks to feel like the outsider. In what ways were you bullied? Well, I was a chubby little kid, and I

got just horribly teased for that, I was a chubby little kid and I got just horribly too used for that. It was a small Catholic school. We had a really small class and it was like, you got sort of branded early on and whether or not you sort of changed shape or size. It didn't matter, you just, it stuck. So it was pretty brutal.

Even though it wasn't like I got, I didn't get pushed into a locker or stuff like that. It was just words, not know, not just words. Words do a lot of damage. Well, no, but also at that age when you're that young relationships and friendships are so important and to feel ostracized from any of that, I think is really scarring. I realized it recently in a therapy session that when I look back on it, what the sense I had is that there was always this sort of trap door.

It was like people would be nice to you and then it hit you with something. And so I always felt really unsafe. And so I just when I think back about that time, I was trying so hard to just shape shift and just be the thing that like didn't get too much attention, but I also was at odds with the part of me that really loves attention. Sure, yeah. And wants to be free and express,

but I was interesting to kind of make the realization of like, oh, it's actually a sense of feeling really unsafe. Just like, you don't know where, like, the quick sand is. God, that really resonates with me. Like, because I was a kid bullied for being gay, and it speaks to what I'm just telling you, like because I was a kid, bullied for being gay. And it speaks to what I'm just telling you, like that idea of a trap door, not knowing when it's going to open up, it's like, I was like, oh my God, I've never thought about that. That is exactly how I operate it through life.

I don't know when I'm like, fall through the earth. Especially in high school, I remember like my least favorite time of the day, where like the free time recess, because like I want structure, because it's structural, it protects me. And like keep me safe in classrooms, and I will be able to have eyes on me from people who are offensive protect me, but when it's free hours, you're on your own.

And I remember actually going to areas and hiding behind trees and setting a public area for myself, so keep out the way of my bullies, and trying to be invisible, which is not what any kid should be taught to do. I had theater programs that I would do outside of high school and outside of school, and that's where I found my people, and I felt very safe around them. But that desire to create and that joy of creating, I couldn't bring to school because there was no safe space.

There's no safe space. Yeah, totally, totally. I think once you've been sort of imprinted with that sense, it's like, it doesn't matter if the environment changes, that sense comes with you. Like, I'm thinking in high school, I finally left the Catholic school and I went to public school for eighth grade. Sorry to interrupt you though. No, you're all good.

Oh, no, not you. You. I'm really dumb in this. These are dumb in the house. I mean, these are amazing. They mean, these are amazing. So delicious. This is going to be that Tunisian salad. Oh my gosh. Got this really nice, like, chorizo,

teena kind of like dressing going on, pistachio, avatino, olives. I'm excited. I have a nice parbole, egg, classic. It's a beautiful tuna on top. Enjoy. Thank you. We're going to get this.

Sure. Super, super. Thank you. Enjoy. Thank you. Now for a quick break. but don't go away. When we come back, I'll talk to Sarah about her early days performing Los Angeles, her big break with Maroon 5, and how we never really stop wanting to please our parents.

Okay, be right back. And we're back with more dinners on me. Sarah and I were just talking about our experiences being bullied and feeling like we didn't quite fit in. All right, let's jump back in. So you went away in eighth grade. So I went away in eighth grade. And I can say in eighth grade, that's kind of where I started noticing that I was getting a lot of positive attention for singing Mm-hmm. I think I sang like the national anthem at an assembly. I definitely sang save the best for last

Amazing And I got a lot of lovely validation and Like excitement from my classmates about my voice. And even that, I think everything runs the risk of turning a little bit toxic. Even this is some of the shit that came up in the pandemic. It's like, am I valuable if I don't have my voice? Am I valuable without this thing that might make me special in certain people's eyes?

Like, I always say like being a human is hard. Like, it's really complex. And just trying to navigate what we cling to to feel special and what we cling to to feel safe. But ultimately, the public school was like such a different experience, even though I was always still like ready to run. Like I had my fight or flight also, it was very like hyper activated.

And I was always ready for someone to say something mean or to make me feel small or ugly or awful or whatever. And thankfully it didn't actually had a fairly positive experience in high school overall until the end of my like around my senior year when my you know my first love cheated on me and then I wrote gravity though. That's what I got out of that. Oh really? 18 years old I wrote that song. Wow. I'm not crazy. When I think about it now, I'm like wow. Does he know that that song? Yeah, I think well, I don't even know. I we're in close contact. He thought about the poor kids, I mean, but I've talked about it in my book,

and I hilariously, I used his initials instead of his name, and I was like, I live in a tiny fucking town. Like this is, it's gonna be hard to figure out who this is. Right, right, right. But that's hilarious. No, that was kind of when I started writing songs, and they were like an extension of the journal entry. Were you getting encouragement from any other places?

I remember playing a song called Water Dancer. Okay, it's this song you wrote? This is a song I wrote. Have anyone else heard it? Is it in the trunk? I don't, I think it needs to stay in the trunk. I was listening to a lot of Tori Ames at the time and I was trying to figure out how to be intense and profound in a way that was really... I'm gonna then move to the song again.

Water dancer. I feel like one of the lyrics was, the songs are all written by drowning water dancers, so they all stop making sense at some point. Songs are all written by drowning water dancers. They stop making sense at some point. Songs are written by drowning water dancers. They stop making sense at some point. I imagine I meant like, so when they die, when they stop, so the songs stop making,

I don't even know what I meant, I don't even know what I meant by that song. I mean, it's somewhat profound. Is it? Like what? Anyway, well, I played it for my high school, like music class maybe or something. Yeah.

It's a foggy memory for me, but I could absolutely sense the confusion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I felt very embarrassed. And so then I stopped playing out in front of people for a long, a lot of years. It's a very vulnerable thing to write a song. And I mean, any sort of, I think, artistic expression. And I can only imagine at that age, and you're singing itself, I think, it's such a vulnerable thing.

Completely. Trying things out for the first time, and especially when it's something you make, and so intense. This isn't totally correlated with what you just said, but I think you might find it somewhat humorous, being a musical theater fan. I, as please try the salad, it's great.

The food is amazing. It's great. The dressing on the salad is quite remarkable. From my senior graduation, I sang, you'll never walk alone from Carousel, which is a great song for graduation. Walk through a storm, keep your head up high and don't be afraid of the dark.

And going on to lives in college and saying goodbye to friends, it was all very, that wasn't enough for me to just sing that song. I wrote a third verse. Because I wanted it to be a little longer. The song was too short for me. It was like 90 seconds. Yeah.

I needed it to be 230. Wrote a third verse. Thought that Oscar, Hammerstein, and Richard Rogers, song was not complete. No, they needed a Jesse Tyler Ferguson third verse. Oh my god, do you remember the lyrics? I feel like it was bad when you're sad and you're tired and the road is long. I mean, it was just like cliches, cliches, cliches. No one knew.

When you're driving and fun. Yeah, exactly. But the lights go out. I mean, there must have been some people out there who were like, like their heads crocked a little bit. I'm not sure if this was, I don't remember this first. But none of my classmates knew. Like they weren't musical theater fans.

Yeah. Anyway, I thought I was contributing to the canon. But who knows? I hope we get to hear that come out at something. I wish I had those blurs written down somewhere. I mean, they must be somewhere. I sing time after time at graduation. Did you? I did.

Classic. It's classic. Time after time. I went to a performing arts school. Where did you go? The American Musical and Dramatic Academy. Oh. Here in New York City. I went to a performing arts school. Where did you go? The American Musical and Dramatic Academy. You're in New York City.

Their class system, I think at the time, they might even say that's not how we did things, but you could kind of tell that they had different groupings and the people with the really good voices or the really great dancers. They kind of like the triple threats. They were all in group A. And then it went all the way down to group F. And the group F is not that they were untalented by any means, but they were kind of like the more like quirky like wacky people.

For all of it seemed very clear where these groups laid and like how, and kind of like the support that was maybe put behind the people in group A was a little more... Well, that's... Yeah, Robust is a great word. And I was in Group D, so I was kind of in the middle. And I just remember feeling like I wasn't quite sure if the system in the school was totally supportive of what I had to offer. Uh-huh. Because I wasn't a great dancer. I had an okay voice.

But I kind of just did everything all right. And I later found my talents in other places and being an actor, it's all about interpretation of text, and there's so many other things we offered, you know, like, can you tap dance? But you know, being a musical theater student, it was like, that was a very important thing for me. So I guess I had to really step up to that for myself and really believe in my ability to go the full distance because I just don't know if I felt that going in and I really had to make the decision to back myself. And that was something that is an 18-year-old was kind of hard to do. I kind of wanted a little bit more

encouragement from anyone. Totally. That resonates so much with me because we're like trained to need the outside validation. Like that's how classrooms work. We're not sort of taught to develop the sense of like intrinsic alignment. Like, are you, am I good? Yeah, I'm good.

Okay, like that's the thing that I think I work the hardest on now. And as an adult, adult is to keep checking in on where I abandoned myself. And at that age, I was like, I mean, I was a few years before having my first nervous breakdown. It's like total disassociation and my anxiety.

All of the things that would be very much passengers in my life and in my VW bug or whatever I'm driving on this road of life. Let's call it a VW. That's gotta be a VW. Yeah, I think it just goes such a long way when somebody like believes in you and says I think there's something special here. I think I had more man minds than like really great cheerleading experiences.

Like I remember I started writing songs and playing shows and I always felt this tug towards making music and singing. When you said to playing shows, are you talking? This isn't a thing to call it. This is that UCLA. So like what do you play a show with like a song? Playing a show looked like an open mic night at a coffee shop or there's a kosher Chinese food named a restaurant named

Genghis Cohen. There's a place called Molly Malone. I don't mind Malone. Yeah, there's um I mean eventually I ended up at the hotel cafe which became like very big deal. Yeah really really big deal to get booking there. Yeah Shoshana Bean plays there a lot. That's right. It's a it's an amazing songwriter venue. I just it's one of my absolute favorites. But at that time it was coffee houses. Coffee house, I mean like anywhere that would have me I would play. Right, open for a magician at this place in Long Beach. I just like I would take anywhere that would have me. I think that that thing you're saying about like betting on yourself.

Like why do you that what was it that felt alive for you about that was was it just your own voice that came out? For a lot of it was just me thinking I don't know what else to do like this is just like where my passion comes from like it goes back to like me Finding my people in that community theater program outside of high school and like feeling so at home with them Yeah, and knowing that like I Thought like a more complete version of myself doing that thing with these people. We were terrible, by the way. Like, you know, on this show, we did we're awful.

But like, I felt so good doing that thing. I was like, I don't know. It seems like when you're at that age, you're like, okay, what's the lesson for life? You're not everyone gets the privilege of doing this, but you should be doing things that make you happy. Right. And that makes me happy. That's a conduit for me being a full version of myself. Yeah. Would your family support it? Yeah. Yeah. And that makes me happy. That's a conduit for me being a full version of myself.

Yeah. Would your family support it? Yeah. I mean, in a way that like, you know, that they were, when I came to New York, I think, you know, there was no like moment in my childhood where like, oh, this is a sign of confidence for him,

but he's done absolutely 16 in this business. Like I was never getting like speaking roles in like the community theater. I was always like, you know, the tree in the background. But I so I think for my parents, they were like, oh gosh, you might be like, you know, making his money by playing the guitar in the subway. And like, he'll figure it out. They were happy I was doing what I wanted to do. And they were supportive of that. But I think that they were also very scared for like, oh, how I was going to make this work out. Totally. My family actually was, I think, very much the same way.

Yeah. I remember my dad coming to a show where there was maybe, I don't know, maybe a hundred people there or something there and it was like a big, he's like, wow, are they all here to see you? Yeah, down, down, down, down, down, people coming to watch me. I have those moments when my parents are still today.

Me too, Me too. My dad's, yeah, and it's so funny. I can't ever come out from under that. I just want to please my parents. Same. I don't think we ever will. No, I think that's the same. And I don't think our parents have

got up from that for another person. I know, I know. It's really, again, being human. Yeah, absolutely. What was your leap from songwriting and playing in these kosher Chinese restaurants to? Was it your relationship with Moon 5 and did they give opportunity to you early on? Yeah, that was one of my, I guess, sort of big breaks when I look back at it. They took me on a tour.

They did a two week tour of East Coast colleges. And what level was there famous point? This love, their first big song that broke like, hard on the radio had just broken. Oh wow. They had been a band forever and they'd been playing tons and tons of shows, but we're kind of, you know, very grassroots,

making it work, did a ton of touring, but hadn't had a big hit on the radio. And then this love took off. So I was actually, I joined the Montour kind of right at the cusp of where their fame was like sort of taking on this new level and those shows were crazy. And I toured with them a handful of times and their manager started managing me. Although it's always, it's never the timing you think. Like I went on tour with them for these two weeks

and it was like a springtime tour. And I came back, just read, you know, buckle up Sarah. Life's gonna change. Everything's gonna get crazy. And nothing happened for like, I don't know, eight months, nine months. And then their manager reached out, Jordan Feldstein. And he started working with me.

And then I started doing some showcases. Now all along this time I was really devoted to playing shows in LA. I did a ton. I did hundreds and hundreds of these little gigs and really like built a grassroots following and UCLA was really helpful and instrumental in that. Like the community I played at UCLA. I played at in Westwood. It was kind of the talk, it's true. That is absolutely what I was in true. Yeah.

So I had built a little bit of a fan base there. And then I actually had a couple of songs that got featured in these indie films. There's actually two lesbian films, Girl Play and Loving Annabelle. That were two of the films that featured, I think they both featured Gravity. So then my LGBTQ community came out for

me. I just started feeling this kind of groundswell of interest and really just attachment to the songs. And I was getting really this early information of every time I can share the most vulnerable thing. That's the song that like gravity, for example, I was in an incredible amount of pain whenever I wrote that song. And I was, you know, it's scary to share that. And then you realize, like, oh, no, everybody's in a lot of pain. And everybody wants a way, like, some kind of conduit to be able to feel it and to feel less alone, I think,

and all of that. So I was playing hundreds of shows, started working with Jordan. And then I did some showcases for labels, and eventually, after lots of people did not want to work with me, finally Epic Records signed me, and then I got my first record deal. And my first record came out in 2007. Same day as Katy Perry's,

yeah, this little voice came out in the same day as one of the boys, her giant record. And I remember having Katy's a friend of mine. But I just remember having this moment of like, oh, wow, these two things are very different. And she was on this rocket ship. I remember having a lot of like, I don't know. It's just like, am I going to find my place here?

I just felt like it's so clear that people want that. Even me, like, I wanted to listen to her record. I was like, I just felt like I, it's so clear that people want that. Even me, like I want to listen to her record. I was like, I can't make that record. It doesn't, it doesn't live on me in the same way. You know what I mean? Yeah, totally, but also like I'm thinking about it. I remember when that came out. She was such a packaged thing.

There was a look. There was an outfits. There was this sound. And it's kind of like going back to like grade school and like the popular kids and like Oh, how can I be like that? Yeah, and like I'm just all I have to offer is this thing Yeah, and it's about emotion and it's about my feelings and you know, how does that compare to someone? Yeah, who's you know seemingly has all of these other things and tricks that yeah 100% that's told him so much since to me

But also something I just want to like circle back and just put pen in is like, you're talking about people resonating with writing things to come from a place of pain and sadness and people needing that. It's an interesting thing. Everybody kind of has these human emotions. We go through the washing machine of what it feels like to just move through grief and sadness and pain and joy and regret. And, you know, we have all of these different states of mind and my job is to kind of like

be the stenographer here. Like, I'm just trying to observe and to capture and to translate so that you have somewhere to go when you're like, oh, this song really, I mean, I have those songs of other artists where I'm like, when I'm feeling a certain kind of way, I go reach for that because it's so comforting. And I think that that's like an infinite well to draw from. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I guess it's just also part of being an artist in lots of different platforms, you know. I mean, I love hearing people who say that they turn on modern family when they need to be comforted.

It makes me very happy that I can be that for them. It's interesting because people create their own intimate relationships with your work and so they feel like they know you. And sometimes, and I'm such a, I'm very stubborn about that anyway in my life. I don't really like anybody feeling like they know me better than I know it. You know, I mean, like, I just think that's ridiculous. It's for fun for us. Yes, completely.

And some people feel very entitled to your time and attention. Extra time beyond the performance you get. Yeah. And you, I think sometimes there's not as much of an understanding of the amount of time, the amount of bandwidth that you're already spending on preparation and just care for what you need to do to give the right performance. And sometimes you just have in a shit day. And I was on a phone call one time on the street and I was in tears, sobbing in tears. And this guy like taps me on the shoulder and is like, can we take a picture with you? And I just thought it was so insensitive. And it made me feel like, you

fucking asshole. No. I can you not see that I'm like completely devastated right now. And I can't remember if I said yes or no right now. But I feel like my my little people pleaser, probably turned on and I was like, yeah, hold on, let me just wait. Maybe I said no, it's not a good time. But it just feels like it's so insensitive to the humanity of what we do too that we're trying to show up as best we can. And sometimes you're just having a really bad hard day. Sure.

Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, I'll talk to Sarah more about her experience with anxiety, how it showed up in her relationship with a partner, Joe Tippett, and what she decided to do about it. Okay, be right back. And we're back with more dinners on me. You've been very upfront and honest about mental health and your anxiety, which, oh my

God, I was so relieved to hear another one of my friends' anxiety, and the way that I feel like I do. You've moved from different facets of the entertainment industry. As a singer, as an artist, on the road, on tour, which I assume could be a very isolating experience, into something where you're now acting, you're part of ensemble cast, which is a very different experience. You're surrounded by people, and it's something you're now acting, you're part of Ensemble Cast, which is a very different experience. You know, you're surrounded by people, and it's something you're going through

with the whole band of people, but you're also more accessible to fans. Yeah. How have you managed your anxiety going through these different facets of your life? And I know medication is something that you've recently embraced, which I'm also like,

maybe any day from me right now. I resisted being on medication staunchly. I mean, I only started it, I guess, maybe a year and a half ago now. I felt like my fear was that it would be suppressing something rather than excavating. That I would be suppressing some essential part of my being, that there was some wisdom in the sadness.

There was some wisdom in this depression. There's some wisdom in this anxiety that I'm not hearing yet. I'm not reading it. I'm too confused and I gotta stay like a dog with a fucking chew toy like I couldn't. I didn't want to look at it from any other perspective, but I think the trick is that your brain chemistry can get destabilized. And then you're no longer operating at a capacity in which you have the space or the bandwidth to really sit and work on, okay, what is being triggered right now? Why am I having this reaction to this degree? Why can I not let go of this thing? I'm having obsessive thoughts. I mean, for me, my anxiety would manifest especially acutely in my relationship with Joe, and I was convinced that I had to leave the relationship. And it was very scary because it didn't feel true. Like, I was having this like...

Like self-destructive... Completely. I was having this very like bifurcated sense of myself. Like, there was, and I started to feel like, go a little bit crazy, where I'm just like. So relatable. I'm just like, I don't know, I can't trust my own opinion, because what feels really like, oh, my knowing is telling me this thing. But there was another part of me that was like, I didn't quite trust it.

It felt like, like a separate Sarah operating quite trust it. It felt like God was... Like a separate Sarah operating outside of Sarah. A little bit. Yeah, I mean, this, I'm not a doctor and I'm not a psychiatrist, but it reminded me of these disassociative thoughts where you sort of just feel like you're a little bit outside yourself watching yourself move through your life.

And the first time I went through that, I was just out of college. I had like a real hard time getting to the end of the runway of being in school and then not knowing what came next, you know, the quote unquote open road I found to be just absolutely terrifying. I couldn't manage the thought of like I just have to like be alive. Now I have to be just like go through day after day after day. It just felt like oppressive and miserable and terrifying. I'm an adult. I'm in charge of myself. What does that even mean? Yeah. And then yeah, it would come and go in waves and what I have learned about myself and I just when we just moved to Brooklyn

and I just had another little twinge of anxiety and a new discovery for me, which is always in tandem with medication, meditation and therapy. Those are my three main tenants of management for my mental health at this moment in time. I realized that my anxiety spikes when I'm not speaking truth, when I'm doing a little bit of like this abandoning of myself, let I call it, or I've heard someone say maybe the people pleasing and especially with

Joe, when we're in a tough spot, moving is very disruptive, obviously. Oh, it's one of the hardest things to go through and to go through. It's a couple. Oh my gosh, it was so intense and it was really like, I didn't particularly love how either one of us showed up in that time and then I just wasn't saying what was really on my heart, and then I started going away from myself. I could feel myself disappearing and the anxiety started to move in. But the great news is that I'm a little bit more aware of those triggers now, and so we kind of nipped it in the bud, but that's a very uncomfortable

and really, really common experience. I think I used to feel a lot of shame about it. I was so angry at myself for not being happy. I know. And it's not as much of the question. There's this expectation of, you have a great career, you have a great life, you have a partner, you have a wonderful home, you have a great dog, like, what you

have to be sad about. And there is that guilt of like, but I am feeling out of control with my emotions. And that's valid. Because it's more than just these things. We're all so much more complicated than those things. All of us. Yeah. I also think a lot about how we show up

in these relationships, and they can be romantic relationships or friendships or whatever. A recent cut and of thought for me is that I don't want to be performing the role of sister, performing the role of daughter. Like I am really trying to show up wholeheartedly and wholeheartedly. And wholeheartedly sometimes means broken heartedly, sometimes means angrily, sometimes means whatever it is,

fill in the blank, but just to actually show up with what's true and trust that like the intimacy, like the actual real connection that I know that I crave is only born out of that. There's nothing good that comes out of me pretending like I'm happy for a fucking weekend. So I don't disrupt any joy for somebody else. I'm just like, and then I really wasn't in the room.

If I'm showing up and I'm really in despair, I have to trust that like my partner, my friends want to sit with me in that, at least for a minute, you know, we don't have to live there the whole time. But at least to like not deny that that part of you also exists. And is lovable, like you said. I think that's so beautiful.

Yeah, for sure. You know, it's so much of my anxiety arose after the success of modern family and just feeling like I was in a bubble and like I was you know on display and I can't go this place to that place. For you like knowing that you had this anxiety and we're you know it may be not managing it early on but I'm managing it now. It's moving into a world and into a realm where you were then not just in control of like okay I'm creating these songs and I'm giving them to you, but now I'm like an actress and I'm forming on stage

or I'm doing a TV show and like has that shifted anything for you as far as your anxiety and kind of your, the expectations of the industry on you. I mean, like I always felt trepidacious about fame. I always was a little scared of it to be honest I kind of think I sensed I'm not really that well-suited for it like I don't I feel a lot of It's that pressure to perform and not disappoint anybody all the time and I haven't enough of that shit

and I didn't like the idea of a loss of privacy and Hey, how are you guys doing? We haven't touched the avocado toast yet. Don't be mad at us Thank you. I'm gonna get this out of your way. Can I do anything else? You just kind of work in slowly. I think I'm good. Beautiful. Yeah, I will try a little coffee though I'll have some coffee That's preso. How do you like it?'ll do a drip with a little milk. Beautiful. I will do. I will milk.

Oh, milk. Can I do an Americano with some steamed oat milk if you have it? Thank you. I got you. Thank you. Thank you. Um, like when I signed my record deal, I bald. I went to my lawyer's office.

I signed the paperwork. I walked back into my little apartment on 14th Street in Santa Monica and I sat on my coffee table and I cried my eyes out. And I felt like it's over. I've sold my soul. I was like so terrified. And when I think back, it's the same theme over and over again, I'm 43 now.

42, 43, I'm 43. People really do like start, I started this track on my age. I run up, I sit 40 at the other day and just like, you're not 48 yet. I'm like, well, I'm close, it's like October, let's just call it 48. I'm 43.

Somewhere in our forties. Put like that idea that the fear of anything is that I won't be able to handle it. I think it's actually about like, I don't trust myself enough to like be able to move into whatever it is, difficult situation, fill in the blank. I don't have enough trust in myself that I will be able to handle it. And that is the thing that I have been building for all these years and continue to really work

on building is that I am my home everywhere I go. And I can go into a party I hate, I can go into a press. And I can go into a party I hate, I can go into a press conference, I can go into a Broadway show, I can go into a TV stage, I can stay in connection with myself and give myself everything I need all the time. Now, that sounds really nice.

It doesn't work out that way. Like I am a mess most of the time, but that's like what I come back to that I really am working to cultivate all the time. And because I do think the anxiety, especially in our industry, we're just, it's so fragile, that balance, because there's so much scrutiny and so much attention

and so much nitpicking and so much, I mean, I think about this as a woman who's aging, I'm sure everybody thinks about this stuff, but my physical being is on display. And I'm someone who, at least for this moment, is choosing to just age naturally. I'm not doing anything to my face. I'm not doing anything to my body.

I'm just really trying to love what I am, what I already am. And it's imperfect, and it hurts to be in front of people sometimes, and it feels very vulnerable and scary, and but I'm really trying, and at least for today, it's like the dress I wore at the Tony's, I wrote this on my Instagram.

I saw Instagram, yeah, yeah. I went to this fitting and this dress, I fucking love this dress. It's gorgeous. It's beautiful. It's this beautiful couture. I've never worn anything like it. I've always really played it safe and some of this is residue from being a little kid

who got made fun of all the time for my body. And I thought this dress was so beautiful. It had a totally open back. And I tried it on and I looked at myself from the back and I was like, oh, you can see rolls on my back line, my back fat or whatever. And I just, I was like, I think I should probably cover that up. I should really cover that up.

And then chose a different dress, totally on the path to wearing something else where I would feel safe and covered and not stick out. And thankfully, Joe Tipe, my partner, is so, he's so attuned to me in just the right ways. I mean, we have a lot of issues too, but like, he's in some way, every couple does. But like, he is so, he's so special in this way.

And he's like, where the fucking dress? Where the dress? You just serve to wear a dress like this. You look beautiful. And it reminded me of like, I'm someone who's trying to put my money where my mouth is. And be like, I want as women, especially, but as everybody.

I want us to feel safe in ourselves. That we can go. I don't want to deny in ourselves that we can go. I don't want to deny myself something that I think will bring me joy because I'm afraid of what someone will say. That seems so crazy. That seems so juvenile now when I think about it. I'm like, if I can, I've worked my ass off.

I've built this beautiful woman in my 40s. In my 40s, I built this beautiful career that I've worked my ass off for. I want to celebrate in this gorgeous dress. Yeah. Bye. See you at the party. You know what I mean?

Yeah. So I was really glad that I, but I felt like, oh, I'm challenging myself a little bit. And I wasn't without self-consciousness all night. You know, I thought about it and, sure. I was like, doing it in that way. You don't just turn that off. That's not a faucet. No, I mean it looks stunning. Oh, thank you. I just I had the best time I so I so enjoyed I think what I ended up feeling actually was really quite proud of myself for doing the thing that I was a little bit scared to do

So that also was infused in the night. Yeah, yeah Well, I mean I feel like I've been trying to pin you down for we had lunch together The last time I sat down to have a meal with you was before we went to go see Shoshana Bean and waitress together Oh, yeah, that's right. That's right. Shoshana Bean is a good friend of both of ours And we would have to lunch and then we went up to Hannah go see her and you did not sit with the truck I'm not gonna watch the show again like you watch from like the back of the house and like roaming around Yeah But that was the last time I got to sit down with you.

And I've been hungry for more cerebral all the time. So I was like, you know what, I'm gonna start a podcast. Colleaders, stand on me just to have Sarah say yes. The zones ween of you. Ween of you. Thank you for doing this. Oh my gosh, it's my pleasure.

And I gotta feed you. No, I'm delicious food. This food was delicious. Yeah. We'll definitely come back. Absolutely. We'll definitely come back. Next time on Dinner's On Me, the creative culinary marvel

that is Roy Choi. We'll talk about the rise of Kogi and what it was like when a series of his restaurants closed in close succession and wandering Hollywood Boulevard as a teenager. And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinner's On Me Plus. As a subscriber, you not only get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen to them completely ad-free. Just click Try Free at the top of the Dinner's On Me Show page on Apple

Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinner's On Me is a production of Neon Hum Media, Sony Music Entertainment and a kit name Beckett Productions. It's hosted by Yours Truly. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Chloe Chobal is our associate producer. Sam Bear engineered this episode. Hansdale She composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Alexis Martinez and Justin McKeeta.

I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week. you