Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Sarah Paulson

Episode Date: April 30, 2024

Star of "American Horror Story” and in Broadway's “Appropriate,” Sarah Paulson joins the show. Over cacio pepe and some very buttery bruschetta, Sarah tells me the role she’s most proud of, the show cancelation that devastated her, and her reaction to O.J. Simpson’s death.  This episode was recorded at Via Carota in West Village, NYC. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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You ever own something that inspired you to up your game? I remember the very first cookbook I ever bought. It was when I was living in New York City. I had a roommate at the time and we had a very tiny kitchen, but I decided I wanted to be a better home cook. So I bought this cookbook from like a secondhand store or something. And that cookbook led to a little bit of a hobby for me.

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Oh, that's very luxurious. Live up to the all new Lexus GX. Luxury beyond limits. Experience amazing, it's your Lexus dealer. Hi, it's Jesse. Today on the show, she's the queen of transformation, playing everything from conjoined twins in American Horror Story Freak Show to prosecutor Marcia Clark in the People vs. OJ American Crime Story. It's Sarah Paulson. I played a lot of really terrible people. That's why you do podcasts and really fun interviews.

Oh, yeah, so you can see how great I really am. This is Dinners on Me and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. I have been trying to get my friend Sarah Paulson on this podcast for months. We kept running into scheduling difficulties and then the strikes, but I am so glad that we are finally getting to have her on in this moment because she is currently turning in one of the most exciting performances I have ever seen on a Broadway stage. Listen, I have always admired Sarah's work. She brings incredible nuance and humanity to every role she plays, even when it's someone like Linda Tripp in Ryan Murphy's impeachment American Crime Story.

Her skill is currently on full display with her performance as Toni Lafayette in an incredible production of Appropriate on Broadway. It's playing right now. If you haven't seen it, it runs until June 23rd at the Blasco Theater. You must go. But as seriously as Sarah takes her craft, and oh god don't you hate it when people call it craft, Sarah is also an incredibly hilarious and self-deprecating person. Two qualities I absolutely love in a good friend.

Oh boy. Hi. Are we recording? Yeah we are. We're rolling. In this secret little room. Yeah we're rolling. And on the bell. Ding ding ding. And ding ding ding, quiet please. I brought Sarah Paulson to a low-key, relatively unknown eatery in New York called Via Corota. Okay, if you're not laughing at my sarcasm, Via Corota is one of the best restaurants in the city, hands down. It's got this homey, rustic charm

with chairs and garlic hanging from the ceiling. You feel like you're walking into your Italian grandmother's home in Tuscany if you had an Italian grandmother with a home in Tuscany. A reservation is also a very hot commodity, but listen, Sarah is a simple woman and basically only eats at Via Corota, so I knew if I was going gonna lure her out of her home on her day off from her play, it had to be for some of its legendary cacio e pepe. Okay, let's get to the conversation. Hi! How are you? Would you like some tap or sparkling? Do you want tap or sparkling? I'm fine with either. I'm fine with either too. Do you want a beach? Yeah, let's do one of each. We're gonna do one of each.

Okay, someone's gonna start tapping down. Great, I'll get the tap. You can get the sparkling. So, I mean, it was complicated enough. First of all, we were supposed to do this before the rider's strike. Before the rider's strike, yeah. Yeah, and then I was like, no, let's not do it.

You're like, I'm fine to talk about me. I was like, that's not interesting for anyone. That's, ha ha. Ha ha. Ha ha. True, factual. But no, it works out well because now we're gonna talk about your play,

but you have very strict rules around when you eat, which I think is, listen, I love a pre-show ritual. You know me, I respect the pre-show ritual. You have a pre-show ritual that extends the entire week. It does. I wanna talk about that. But today's your day off, which thank you, by the way, for having this on your day off.

It is a big deal. I'm being facet on your day off. It is a big deal. It's a massive deal. I know. You know what it's like. Your Mondays are the most precious day on planet Earth when you're in a play. For sure. Now, okay, will you walk me through your weekly routine?

So let me tell you what I've heard. Oh, tell me. I would love to know what you've heard. What's the gossip on the reacto about my hot gossip, my pre-show rituals? So I heard that you have the same meal every night before your show. Correct.

First of all, I wanna know what that is. But before we go there, that you do allow yourself on your day off this Monday, you allow yourself to have whatever you want to eat. Like hog wild, like when I tell you whatever I want, I mean like literally whatever I want. Okay. Okay, so traditionally, what I like to do, I have, I live in real fear of like having an energy crash on stage and you've seen this play so you know, but I think I have felt

this in any play I've ever done, regardless of my responsibility out there. So I have to eat the same thing at the same time before I go on, which is a Joe in the Juice tuna-cato sandwich. Okay. That I sometimes add egg salad to, which Michael Esper in the play thinks is the most revolting thing he's ever heard,

but I personally think it's so good. Scoop of egg salad, there's a little bit of hot sauce on it, avocado, tuna, pesto, the best bread in the world is at Joe and the Juice. I don't know why this has become an advertisement for Joe and the Juice, but it is, to me, that sandwich is, L. Fanning introduced me to the tuna-cato and it was, my life has never been the same.

And it is now the only thing I eat, except for on two show days. Because it's a lot of tuna, Jesse. So I don't want to have a tuna sandwich every day. Didn't like Jeremy Piven when he was doing- Yes, he got mercury. I don't need to be Pivened while I'm doing the play. I do not need to be Pivened while doing the play.

I don't want it, because I'm too much sushi. So on two show days, I will order from Dig In. I love Dig In, yeah. And I'll get sweet potato, avocado, I don't eat meat so I have a lot of tofu. Kale, their kale cashew thing is really delicious. So I do that, but that I find, I am wildly parched by Act One, Scene One.

I am really thirsty. Which is immediately. Which is immediately, which is basically how the play starts and I'm like, that's a nice sound to be listening to on a podcast, right? Lovely dry mouth. We love mouth sounds. And I have like a pineapple juice and hot water mix

in different places on the set. Because you know pineapple juice is really good for your vocal cords. Very hydrating. It's very hydrating, it helps with inflammation, and also cuts any phlegm, mucus, muci, whatever. Which I find I really struggle with in this play. I do.

I'm attracted to that. I do talk that first act is like a non-stop situation. So that is what I eat, and then I come home and I order from, as you can tell, I don't cook. So I order from Le Boc d'Innist, which I'm not even sure if that's how you say it. There's a location in Soho, there's one right by the theater, and I get a soup with tofu and a salad and a lemonade.

And that's what I do, and it's what I do. And that's what you eat after the show. Correct. Okay. But I don't do a breakfast. I'm a big English breakfast double bag tea bag has to brew for a minimum of five minutes. In an actual salad bowl, I drink my tea out of a salad bowl. Because the mug isn't big enough.

I've not found a mug bigger. Like a little kitty cat. Like a real salad bowl. And then I just froth up with my frother, the Trader Joe's coconut cream that I really like. It's got a lot of sugar in it. And I drink that. And then I don't really eat until the show.

Wow. I actually forgot myself, but I feel like a lot of people forget when you're doing an eight-show-a-week schedule. You know, they look at it and like, okay, well, you have two show days on Wednesdays and Saturdays maybe are... Sometimes a five-show weekend.

It's a nightmare, yeah. Sometimes on a five-show weekend. But really, I mean, you're just working three hours at the end of the day. Like, you have the whole day to yourself. How dare you? How dare you, right? How dare you? People who say that are just, well they just don't understand.

Well they just don't understand. And they're like, well God, you've got your days free. And I'm like, every minute of the day prior to doing the show, I'm thinking about doing the show. It's a countdown to being at the theater. I don't know about you, but I like to be there pretty early. That way I can have my tuna-cato, I can steam with my Pure Mist.

Did you ever do that? Did you do that? I did do Pure Mist, yeah. I do love it. I got a steamer. I got the whole cast to take me out, hooked on them, yeah. Yep, yep.

I mean, I truly feel like, and you know, we both started our careers doing theater and then we're lucky enough to be able to do other things, but it is the hardest thing I've ever done. It is the hardest thing I've ever done. I don't know about you, but I'm gonna say for myself, the most gratifying thing I've ever done. It is the hardest thing I've ever done. I don't know about you, but I'm gonna say for myself, the most gratifying thing I've ever done. Agreed, I've never been equally as,

I've never had been so exhausted and drained, and also so simultaneously fortified, and feel like I would love to tackle the most challenging acting responsibility ever, because I feel as warmed up as a person can be to do something. Right, for sure. Yeah, so yeah. Do you, when was the last time you were in New York doing a play?

You said 20 years? No, it has been 13 years since I've been on Broadway and 10 years since I've done a play. Okay, because that's a long time. It's a long time. I, and I don't know if you can tell this about my eating habits, but I have a lot of control issues and I really like what feels like freedom

when doing a play to where you are sort of, you and you alone in your company, provided you've had like, you know, an expert director, which we had, are responsible for, you know, giving that show to the audience every night. Whereas in a movie or a television project, you do your thing, the showrunner, the editor, these people go in a room and they decide.

They patchwork your thing. They determine what take they think is best. I've taken to like, as I said, because I'm a control freak, I go up to the script and I say, can you star take five for me? Because then at least I know they get the note in editing that I like to particular take. In the horror story world, I was able to do that. Because I was there for so long.

But on stage, you know, you are, it is up to you. And that feels really good to me. What you just said is exactly, when people ask me It is up to you. And that feels really good to me. Yeah, it does. What you just said is exactly when people ask me why I prefer theater over film. And I wouldn't even say prefer, but I just feel more artistic fulfillment from it. Yeah, you're not giving it up to someone else

to say what is your taste and what is your take on what is good about this. Hi. Hi, everybody's here. Oh my gosh, yes. Yes, what are you gonna get, Jesse? Do you know? Well, okay, I feel like, I'm happy to share anything with you as well. I'm not sure if you'd like to share. Just tell gosh, yes. Yes. What are you gonna get, Jesse? Do you know? Well, okay.

I feel like I'm happy to share anything with you as well. I'm not sure if you'd like to share. Just tell me what you're getting. Okay, okay, okay. I mean, he's yelling at me already if I'm anything. He thinks he's acting as if I'm being gaslit. I'm definitely getting the grilled artichokes. Whoa, no thanks.

I don't like artichokes. You don't like artichokes, okay. Well, I'm getting the grilled artichokes. And the broccoli rabe. Whoa. I'm going to have the cacio pepe. That's what I want, too. Is that weird to get the same thing?

Mm-mm, not at all. That's what I want. And could I get the insalata verde as well? Would you want some of that? Would you eat some of that? What's that again? Oh, the green salad. It translates to green salad.

The insalata verde, I'm like, what? Yeah, I would actually eat some of to green salad. The insalata bear name, like, what? Yeah, I would actually eat some of that, yes. Okay, perfect. Anything else that sounds good? My question is, what's the bruschetta? Bruschetta. I don't want the chicken livers. And I, hmm.

Is it possible to get it without anchovies? Because I don't do that. Yeah, I think we can get anchovies on the side. I just don't want to see them anywhere near me, unless you want them. You don't have to even bring them with them. Don't even bring them. We don't want to look at them. They have fur on them. They're not welcome in this time of year. They don't want see them anywhere near me, unless you want them. You don't have to even bring them with you. Don't even bring them. We don't wanna look at them, they have fur on them.

They're not welcome in this time of year. They don't want to be here, because I don't wanna see their little furry underbellies. Oh, God. That's what they look like. Yes, thank you, sorry. And? I want, I want, give me, give me drink stuff.

What non-alcoholic options do you have? I want a lemonade. Yeah. Do you have a Coke? Whoa. Do you want me to go to the deli and grab you one? No. Can I have a ginger soda?

Yep. Just anchovies. Yeah, apparently. Listen. Thank you. This play, you told me about it, I feel like, two years ago. That's right. That's exactly right.

Saying you were looking at this play, and I didn't see it when it was originally on Broadway. Me neither. I hadn't either. I mean, it is an intense, it's an incredible, first of all, showcase for you. But the entire cast is incredible. And it's just, I don't want to give too much away, but can you sort of talk to me about like

what made you want to do this one as your first playback after 10 years? Well, it's funny, cause like, I don't think I really thought, I didn't think about it in this way of like, let me find a play that feels like the right thing to come back to do. It was really just, I got offered this play

in September of 2021. The theater community had not bounced back at all. Broadway had not come back. So we were having trouble getting a theater. And I just, for whatever reason, and I'm acting as if I don't know what that reason is, but the real reason is, is because the play was so brilliant.

I just thought, I'm gonna wait it out. And I'm just gonna not let it go. Because I kept thinking, if I see somebody else doing this play, I'm going to be so upset if I decided to go do a show, like a TV show, that didn't mean as much to me, or the writing wasn't as special. So I just thought, I've got to hang on.

But this play is about this family who comes back together, having been estranged for, I mean, Bo and Tony have spoken, they continue to speak, but mostly these are an estranged group of siblings. Tony is the character I'm playing and Bo is who Corey Stoll plays. And the youngest brother Michael Esper plays him and he has not, we have not seen hide nor hair of him in a decade. So we come back together because our father has died and we are left to sort of sift through his estate and a lot of things are uncovered,

both literal and figurative, emotional and actual, that sort of change dynamics between all of us. And you know, it sounds like a kind of dark play, which it is, but it's very funny. It's incredibly funny. It's incredibly funny play. You know, what else is in front of me right now that's as good as this?

And the answer is nothing. So. Right. Well, I mean, when I went and saw your performance at second stage, I had just won a Tony Award for performing a play at this theater that you were performing at. I could not get a ticket. Do you know this? I didn't know. It was a huge hit at the Hayes and continues to be a huge hit. I mean now you're in a house like almost double the size. Double the size, yeah. It's still doing incredibly well. Yeah. What has it been like for you to sort of grow?

I mean we talked about it a little bit, but just like stay with this character a little longer. You know, because I actually went back and read some of it. And I said, I think if I was reading this as an actor, I would have a hard time finding out who am I rooting for in this story. Because it's a play that, you know, everyone's kind of a monster at some point,

but people do emerge. Like people who you thought were the good ones end up not being the good ones. I can only imagine the time that you spend with the play affords you the ability to find more levels within that humanity. I think the truth is, and I don't know what this says about me, but this is not unfamiliar territory for me because when I played Marcia Clark, when I played Linda Tripp, and now with this character, these are all people and the two real people that I played obviously I had a lot of um society had

a particular attachment to them or opinion about them or preconceived notions and so I sort of you know particularly Linda Tripp who was so vilified and I certainly don't sanction anything that she did or how she went about doing it but what I do feel is a lot of empathy for her. And I think because I did feel that and I felt like I understood her, maybe my hope is that, and this is what people have said and who knows if it's really true, that they did end up feeling something for her. And so that, but it didn't, it did not come about because I was trying to.

And the same thing is true with Tony. I think they're the character I play inappropriate because there's no question that on the face of it, she is, she is a tough pill to swallow. But the way I tried to think about it was just like thinking about her given circumstances, which is this is a woman who has come home. Her father has died. She was very close to him. She has thought of herself as the caretaker and the linchpin with everybody in the family. Frank, the black sheep who's been missing for 10 years, she was a sort of second mother to him. Her mother died when she was in college.

She has sort of had all these responsibilities and she doesn't manage them well. And then what ends up happening by the end of the play is sort of devastating, I think, for Tony because she realizes that there really is maybe no place for her in this family. And that is a really emotionally challenging thing to live inside. You know, it's a really evocative kind of thing to me, I think. It's a, I mean, I always feel like it's such a gift that I get to do this. It is such a gift that we get to do it. That's right.

Look at that. That is the most butter I've ever seen on anything ever. Is that butter? Is that butter? I think it might be. You guys, that's butter. It looks like, they look like heart-blown eggs. It's scoops of magnificent butter.

Ooh. This will go nowhere near you. Oh my god, delicious. This is the artichokes. Oh no. That's, let's see. I'm eating, I'm not waiting for you. Don't go, go. I mean, you mentioned it first, but like these,

yeah, get those mouse sounds in there. I'm giving everybody what they want. Get those crunchy, crunchy mouse sounds in there. There's gotta be, like people got foot fetishes, there's somebody who's got like a chewing fetish. I think everyone just hates it. And this is for you. This is, this is,

I just, I really want you to have a good experience on your day off, that's all I care about. Who's editing this? Who's right there? Angela. Angela? This is a... I just, I really want you to have a good experience on your day off. That's all I care about. Who's editing this? Who's right there? Angela. Angela?

Oh, Angela. Angela, I'm sorry. Well... Mmm. Not for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, I talk to Sarah about why she's so incredible at playing unlikable characters. And we talked about the role that really scared her

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Okay, okay. You brought it up, but you know, Marsha and Linda and Tony, like, they're very complicated people. But what do you think it is about you that, like, why those characters are drawn to you? Because you do them very well. Thanks, Jesse. I don't know, I like the way you phrased it, why those characters are drawn to me, you said.

Which is interesting. I don't know, I guess the truth is, I'm not afraid of them, because I'm not afraid to be disliked as a character. I think it's fun. I think it's fun. To be honest. Yeah, but I also feel like if you're doing it honestly,

and people don't like you, or don't like the character, then you're doing something right if that's what the part calls for. I think I've been lucky, partly because of my work with Ryan on American Horror Story, particularly because I was constantly playing

all these new characters, so no audience got attached, I think, to a particular, to me as a particular person. So I got to be on a show for a long time. That is such a gift. And get the benefit of be on a show for a long time. That is such a gift. Get the benefit of being on a recognizable show and making it possible for me to do other things

but not being pigeonholed, which was such a gift because then it's like, I can go off and do a thing that if you're playing someone's favorite character on their favorite show for a decade, you can't always get out of. That's something you have to crawl off of. Yeah, so that has been really, really lucky. And so I think, I played that horrible woman

in 12 Years a Slave, too. And Steve McQueen, who directed 12 Years a Slave, just said to me, like, you cannot judge her or try to make her, you know, my responsibility in that movie was to play that woman as truthfully as possible, which was in her real horror, in her behavior, being so despicable, because that is how the main character's stories, you could feel the weight of that, of what they were living inside. So if I was trying to ingratiate myself to the audience, it would be a disservice to

the movie as a whole and also to The story right right, you know, so sometimes it's the responsibility and um, you know A lot of terrible people. I've played a lot of really terrible people. That's why you do podcasts and really fun interviews Oh, yeah, yeah, so you can see how great I really am so I can get it Yeah, I can deprogram people and get a nice deal at Joe and the juice for my tunicado love I'll be that you'll see me on the billboards post this podcast reprogram people and get a nice deal at Joe and the Juice for my tunicado love. You'll see me on the billboards post this podcast. There's something interesting about like Linda Tripp

and Marcia Clark because I mean, Linda was disliked by people for a very specific reason. And Marcia was disliked by people for another reason that kind of was more misogynistic. And you know, so it does sort of leave the audience feeling like, okay, why am I still feeling these feelings about these people? Correct.

Linda Tripp fucking scared the shit out of me. She scared the shit, first of all, I didn't recognize you at all in that role. Like you completely, I mean, your voice is different. Obviously you had the prosthetics. That was the greatest thing in the world to get to do. It really was. didn't recognize you at all in that role. Like you completely, I mean your voice is different, obviously you had the prosthetics and yeah. That was the greatest, that was the greatest thing in the world to get to do, it really was.

Yeah, I mean you're incredible at it. Thank you. It is the thing I'm the most proud of actually, that performance. Just because of the amount of transformation that it took? It was a big transformation, we also shot it for a very long time, it was almost 11 months.

I gained about 30 pounds to play the part. I shaved my eyebrows off so I could change the shape of my eyebrows. I wore teeth. The only prosthetics I had on my face was a nose and I had a neck, but nothing on my face. Wow, incredible. Nothing on my face. But yeah, I worked with a vocal coach and we found where Linda's voice lived.

For me, what I discovered is that what I like the best is hiding when I'm acting. You know, it's really, even the same thing with Marsha, I loved having the wig, I loved hiding. I'm here to talk for the next four of the weeks. Sarah, are you interested in any of these? If you offer me an artichoke, I will literally carry it. Just leave the artichokes here just in case. What about this bread and butter?

I mean, I say leave it, because you don't know. Let's leave it, we don't know what's gonna happen. But we had our salad very day. Thank you, just leave that salad. Yeah, anyway, it was just the most, when I played Marcia was when I sort of learned the most about what I like as an actor. And it sort of comes back around

what we started talking about in terms of my control. When you're creating a character out of whole cloth, nobody knows this person. This is an invention of a writer, director, and the actor coming together to figure out what it is. It could be anything, right? And there is wonderful freedom in that. But somehow for me, when I have a blueprint of here is who this actual person is, this is where they were born, this is where they went to school. There's all this footage of them walking around in the world that you can watch, you can see how they deal with other people.

You have all the facts. Somehow within that structure, I'm able to feel more liberated and free because I have unequivocal realities that are not negotiable, that are true, that can't be changed. I can make bigger, deeper, more confident choices. I was gonna say confidence is nice.

It's a confidence thing I can create. I can make a choice for the character that I know unequivocally isn't wrong. But there's also rules set around it too. It's like this is the- Correct, I like this. Yeah, the blueprint is good. I like this, and the same thing was true for Linda. And I was like, oh, this is actually something I prefer.

I like playing real people for this reason. And also, I think it's easier when you're done to assess whether or not something has worked or not, because you go, that does seem like that other person. And somehow with that, there's more concrete proof that's undeniable and that's not up for debate. And I like that, because I like control. And I like that because I like control. And so with Tony, I don't have that,

but I do have the experience of doing it over and over and over and over again. It creates this other sense. Yeah, it creates that other sense of control and blueprint and facts because it becomes part of me. So it's now, it's like I trust myself and the choices I'm making for her because she feels in there.

Right. You know? Right. And sometimes I think the audience too makes such a difference in terms of, I mean, don't you feel like you can come off stage sometimes and you're like, wait a minute, that's what we always do and they didn't laugh today, I wonder why. Right.

And then you can get in there and you start mucking around with stuff and then it just gets worse. Yeah, you start over analyzing. And then you can get in there and you start mucking around with stuff and then it just gets worse. And then you just overanalyze it and it's like... Nothing's worse than when you're reaching for the laugh. Oh my God. There's that famous thing about... It was in an episode of Studio 60 that Aaron Sorkin

wrote, you know, the very unsuccessful show Studio 60, Jesse, that I have a line to Matthew Perry's character where I was like, why am I not getting the laugh? And he said, because you were asking for the joke instead of asking for the butter in the scene. You know, he was like, oh, right.

And it's true. It's never as good when you're asking the audience to laugh. You know what I mean? You talk about Studio 60 and talk about how it was, it didn't. It didn't succeed. After a season. After one season.

But you know what I was doing, you know what was happening at the stage right next to Studio 60. Yeah, you were doing the class. The class, which also did't succeed. After a season. After one season. But you know what I was doing, you know what was happening at the stage right next to Studio 60. Yeah, you were doing the class. The class, which also did not succeed. It did not. I remember, I remember seeing you at the Equinox. Don't you remember?

That's right. Equinox, right? That's right, that's right, that's right. We used to stretch together over by there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. You were doing your show and I was doing my show and then very soon I guess our memberships were both canceled because we couldn't afford it anymore.

We couldn't afford it anymore. Yeah. Yeah, and there was a bit of crossover with some of our cast members were dating one another. Yes, that's right. Oh my God. But did you go for more than one season or no? No, just one. And even that our season was cut down. So, you know, it was a big disappointment. I mean, that was back in the day when we would audition for pilots that were like, the pilot of the comedy pilot was the class and the other was studio 60. That's right. I mean, people who learned that I had gotten the class

were like, oh, that's the one that we're all trying to get. The other one is studio 60. That's the drama that everyone's trying to get. And that was your kind of big. It was a big break for me. Yeah. I mean, when that ended for me, I was like, well, there was my shot at TV. It was my big break for me. It was, yeah. I mean, when that ended for me, I was like, well, there was my shot at TV.

There was my shot at TV. It didn't work out. Didn't work out, yep. I'm gonna stick around this town for a little while longer to see if I could get drummed up in anything else. But what was your feeling when Studio 60... I mean, I had the same thing. I felt like ours, too, was like,

Matthew was just coming off of Friends, Bradley Whitford had just finished The West Wing, Amanda Peet, who is my best friend in the world and who I had met on a previous show that we had done that also had not lasted long, had just come off of Seriana and was doing, you know, had had all this movie success and whole nine yards and it just felt like, it felt like this,

it was Aaron Sorkin right after West Wing. It felt like a no-brainer. It felt like it was going to be the thing. And told in a world that I think people were really fascinated by, the backstage world of... Saturday Night Live. Also at the same time, it was when 30 Rock came out. That's right.

Which I think didn't have the same... It was able to have a little bit of a slower burn and then become the thing it became. Whereas Studio 60, I think, came out of the gate with too many expectations. Right. Thank you. Yeah, sometimes I can kill it.

I'm having the cocky up happy. Same Z's. Chucky Chucky cocky up happy. How do you say it? Cacha Pepe? It's not right how you say it? Why do you try to make it seem super like... It's just how you say it.

Yeah, but when I look at it, it looks like it says cocky peppy. Cocky peppy. Cocky peppy. Cocky and pee pee? Cocky and pee pee. Cocky and pee pee. Cocky pee pee peppy. This looks soppy. Cocky and Peppy? Cocky and Peppy. Cocky and Peppy. Cocky Peppy Peppy. This looks so delicious. Does it not look so delicious?

Guys, I wish you could see this incredible Cocky Peppy. This Cocky Peppy is the best Cocky Peppy I've ever seen. I mean, whoa. They're famous for this. They are famous for it and they should be, cause look at it. It's delicious. The noodles are curvy, like you can tell it's handmade.

Amazing. So good. I was devastated when the show was canceled and I really thought, oh, here we go. This is gonna be the thing. This is that show that everybody wanted. I can't believe I got it. And then we didn't even do a full,

I think we did like 19 episodes total, 17, 19. Well, I mean, that's kind of what happened with us. It's a truncated season. I don't know if I've ever told this on the podcast, but mine was a multi-camera sitcom that James Burrows was directing, who directed all of Cheers and Friends. He's the most famous sitcom multi-cam director in the world.

He invented the four-camera method. Format, whatever happens. Format, yeah. And he had this tradition of taking casts out Oh, he invented the four camera method or, you know, format or whatever. Format, yeah. And he had this tradition of taking casts out to dinner the night before the first episode premiered. So he took the cast of Friends to Las Vegas and basically, you know, did this whole thing like, tonight's your last night of anonymity,

toasted them and like, you know, flew them on like the Warner Brothers private jet to Vegas and gave them each $100 to gamble, and like, you know, flew them on like the Warner Brothers private jet to Vegas and gave them each $100 to gamble with, and like, you know, you could afford more, right, right, right? $100, they were like, oh my God, they probably, at that moment, were so excited about it, and now it's like. Yeah, totally.

Yeah. And then with the cast of Will and Grace, he took them to Palm Springs and did a similar thing. So he took the cast of the class to Vegas. We did, we got on the plane that Warner Brothers lent us for the night. He took us to Vegas. We went to a really nice restaurant. He toasted us.

This is your last night of anonymity. And he's like, I've done this with two other casts. I have not been wrong. You know, and we always tease him about that. Like you really missed the boat. You really, really missed the mark on the class. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And wasn't Modern Family,

am I wrong about this, sort of a really early single camera half hour? Or were there a lot of them at that point? Well, the opposite happened. Oh, right. Which I think we borrowed a lot from Parks and Recreation. But it was sort of of that. Oh, so then no.

But there were definitely, like we definitely, you know, borrowed from the mockumentary thing that was sort of hot at that moment, for sure. I just remember being a big thing, even though I hadn't seen you in a while, I remember thinking like, oh, this is probably gonna, this is probably gonna change his life. It looked like that from the outside to me.

Interesting. And look what happened. And it did. It really did. So, you know, maybe you should come to me next time. Seriously. Jimmy Burroughs. And let me know, let me tell you whether I think it's worth a trip to Vegas.

Yeah, I'll tell you if you need it, whether you're about to say goodnight to your enemy. Uh-huh. But shortly after that happened for me, that's when the American Horror Story started. I mean, I feel like there's a lot of parallels in our careers. We didn't know each other terribly well in New York.

I mean, I'd seen you on stage and I admired you very much. And then of course we were working next door to one another on the Warner Brothers lot. And at the gym briefly before we had to quit. Yeah, we stretched together. But, you know, right when Modern Family was kind of heading was when American Horror Story started becoming a thing. Glee was already happening and his next big project

was American Horror Story. Obviously, you spoke about it a little bit, but just the opportunity to be able to play different roles and still have job security is such a rare experience for an actor that never happens. It never happens, and he did sort of invent this or sort of bring back this sort of anthology series. Right, well now they're kind of doing it with

White Lotus. All of it, but like it was very, it was a very new idea that each season it could be the same actors. And I remember on the old Twitter, how people got very upset between season one and season two when Evan Peters was playing, who they loved as Tate, was now playing someone else. And I remember getting getting attacked on Twitter because my character,

the second season was Asylum, so we were inside an institution and his character, Evan Peters played a character named Kit who tried to escape. I screamed, help, the killer is escaping, which I guess has become some TikTok thing. I don't know, it's a whole thing. I just realized that as I was saying that. But I got attacked on Twitter because they were like, the killer is escaping, which I guess has become some TikTok thing. I don't know, it's a whole thing. I just realized that as I was saying that.

But I got attacked on Twitter because they were like, you made Tate get in trouble. And I was like, first of all, let me... And this is back when I would try to respond and reason with people and be like, first of all, he's Kit this year and that's an actor and he's not, you know. But people got really, they really got, so it was a minute before the audience kind of came on board with having loved a bunch of characters and then it became a thing where every year they couldn't wait to see what people were gonna get

to do next and that changed. But it took a minute for them to understand it. Well and also such, talk about big swings in your relationship with Ryan Murphy. He's like, okay, now you're going to be playing a heroin addict, now you're gonna be playing conjoined twins. I mean, was there ever a point where you took a pause and was like, I don't,

I'm not sure if I'm on board with this one or how are we going to pull this off? Never. And I think that's why our relationship, our creative relationship works so well, is that he's never asked me to do anything I've said no to. Right. And then I've, and the truth is, like, I was terrified to play Marsha Clark because I didn Clark because I just couldn't imagine how I would do that. I didn't know what to do. And as it usually works with people who see more of you than you can see of yourself,

his belief that I could do it somehow made me feel like I could. I mean, fear is a great motivator. Fear is a great motivator, but it also helps to be afraid with a very sturdy hand on your shoulder. Oh, for sure. Yeah. You know? And he really just was like, and he continues to do this for me to this day.

I mean, he just, he has a sort of unshakable belief in me that has proven to be one of the great gifts of my life. It's so lucky that you have that. Yeah, it really is. True. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, I talk to Sarah about her relationship with lead prosecutor Marcia Clark, who she portrayed in the People vs. OJ American Crime Story. And we touch on her relationship with Emmy award-winning actress, Holland Taylor. Okay, be right back.

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Sure did die. Sure did. First of all, I was like, pure shock. And then everyone was like, how do we feel about this? I know you have a relationship with Marcia. I do. You brought her to the Emmys, right? I did. have a relationship with Marcia. I do. You brought her to the Emmys, right?

I do. Mm-hmm. Which is the least I can do. Oh my gosh, right. For letting her, you know. I think, I mean, I think Marcia's talked about this so I could say this, but I think the idea of this show coming on was absolutely horrifying to her.

She had been out of the spotlight at that point for enough time to feel like, now I'm gonna go through this again? Where they're gonna, and she had no confidence at all, and I understand this, that she would be treated well in the series, and I think was worried about being. Well, and you were also having to relive her traumas, you know, like the day she came in with the new hairstyle.

Yes, and you know, I didn't meet Marcia. Ryan did not want me to meet her, and did not want me to talk to her, and I think it was also a legal thing. I didn't meet Marsha. Ryan did not want me to meet her and did not want me to talk to her. And I think it was also a legal thing. I don't think I was allowed to. But when I finished episode six, which was the Marsha Marsha Marsha episode, Ryan said to me,

if you're still burning to reach out to her, you can do it now, because now you've done it. And I was like, oh, okay. And I did. And then we met and had dinner and it was one of the great nights of my life, truly, wild tequila-filled evening.

Oh my God, I love it. It was really great. It was really great, actually. And we were to get, we stayed, we closed down this restaurant. It was really great. But I think she, and I understood this, really didn't believe that she was going to be well taken care of in the show. And why would she think that?

She'd only been vilified. She'd only been told that she was why the case was lost. It was, I think, a really harrowing time in her life. And the thought of it being plastered on billboards and on buses and water cooler conversations about this again was just not what she was looking forward to. So I think it was a very big deal to have the narrative sort of refocus in the right place as it pertained to her. And so, you know, for me, when I heard that he died, I felt a couple things or thought a couple things more than felt anything. I immediately

texted Marsha. I thought immediately about the Goldman's and the Brown family. But the idea that like, there's gonna be another national news story about this person when their loved ones are no longer on the planet. And they don't have, you know, I thought about that. And I felt bad for his family.

Because there are people, whether I believe in him or liked him, doesn't matter. I do think he did it. But there are people in the world who he belonged to, who loved him. And that is sad for any person who loses anybody. Very complicated. Yeah, yeah. And Marsha and I texted and yeah, it was... I felt like you probably would have reached out to her. I mean, it was a crazy moment. The number of people who texted me, like as if I was Marcia Clark, you know? Yeah.

It's like, wondering what I thought. And I'm like, well, here are my thoughts as Sarah Paulson. But I don't know how Marcia feels. Right. I am not Marcia Clark, actually. Yeah, yeah. How do I pivot from that? I mean.

Jesus, Jessie, you really talked yourself into a cul-de-sac with that one. A cul-de-sac. You talked yourself into a cul-de-sac, I like that. No. Never heard that before. I need a conversation highway. Whoa, you're really,

listen, this is how you're getting out of it. You're coming up with a whole, a whole new verbiage. I wish I had more simple syrup. We can get you one, I'm sure. No, I don't need to see you do that. You know what I love? So I, okay, I love that your mother

worked at Sardis as a waitress. Yeah, uh-huh. I didn't know that you were also raised in New York. I mean, I know you were born in Florida, mostly raised in New York. First of all, talk to me a little bit about just being a kid in New York. First of all, talk to me a little bit about just being a kid in New York and being able to hop on the subway at age 11 and like.

I did do that. I mean, I was a real, remember that phrase, latch key kid? Yeah, of course. So I was one of those, because my mom had a job and so, you know, I was doing my own laundry and taking the subway and doing all that stuff. Probably like when I look back at it now, maybe a little too young to be on the subway,

but somehow at that particular time in New York City, it doesn't- We're talking like early eighties? Well, easy. We're talking not early eighties, we're talking mid eighties. I was born in 74, you monster. So by the time I was doing that, it would have been like 85 or 86, thank you very much.

I would call that mid 80s, wouldn't you? Mm-hmm, yeah, sure. Thank you, mm-hmm. Mid late. I actually lived in this neighborhood. And, oh, oh, is it simple syrup? Whoa, thank you. Sarah.

Asking the shower seat. We have the room wired. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, Sarah. Thank you. Sarah. Asking to shower. We have the room wired. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, baby. Better. Yeah. Perfect. All right.

All right. Let's start over. All right. Hi, Jesse. Hi, Sarah. How are you? Yeah, I grew up here. You knew your mom was a writer?

My mom is a writer. And my mom got a job as a waitress. So it's her first job here was at Sardis, which happens to be next door to the Hayes Theater. So that sometimes like, I was just thinking about that. Sometimes like, I just would walk by there and, you know, I'd never, I've never had my face

on a marquee before on Broadway. I've had like a Sunset Boulevard poster for Ratchet or something was up there in the OJ. I think even the OJ thing was Cuba's face with the gloves and things. So I wasn't on that. Horror story posters are really rarely the actors. They do these other things.

So this was the first time I'd ever, and it happened to be like, my eyes could hold the Sardis awning and my own billboard, more on, you know, marquee or whatever, with my face on it. And it was just not lost on me. The wildness of life and just the idea that my mom had, it was 27, she was so young, she was 21 when she had me,

so maybe 26 by the time we were here, working as a waitress there and a daughter who, I knew I wanted to be an actress when I was in utero, I think. And so, and then here it is. It's incredible. I know, they're doing a caricature. That's huge.

For me, for Sardis and my mom is going to come to the ceremony and CBS Sunday morning is doing it. So they're gonna film it and I have to say something, I think, and you being there would be really, and you know, she was just a little, all a flutter and not quite sure how and what to do and nervous about it. But I think it's a pretty moving, meaningful thing. I mean, my first job ever was understudying Amy Ryan

and the Sisters Rosenzweig on Broadway. And so I was 19 years old, I didn't go to college, and I got very lucky and started working and sort of haven't stopped working since then. I don't know, I think people who try to be or just only want to be cool about these things and not think of them as events are really missing out

because to dream about anything and to have anything come close, much less actual to something I'd fantasized about as a child is worth marking, I think, and to let that imprint. And being awed by it. Yeah, and being awed by it and being able to, I mean, I don't know if I've talked about, I think I have, but like,

when I won the Emmy for Marcia Clark, it was probably the loneliest, most awful time, actually, for me. Holland was in New York doing a play, I was by myself. And at the end of the day, you can have people who love you and want everything for you. And I have plenty of people in my life who want that. But no one ultimately wants it for you more than you've dreamt about it for yourself.

So there is something kind of isolating and a little bit lonely about having the thing you wanted or the concretization of a dream, which is to stand there holding a statue voted on by your peers, saying, this is it. And to stand there, and I remember looking out, and people were standing up, and I remember just like Brian Cranston and Claire Danes, two actors I admire so much, handing me the thing.

And there I am, like looking out, and then I walked off stage, and you're back there, you had this happen, you're back there for an hour, you don't get reunited with your people. And it's just very, I had to call Holland from like a corner, but like I was by myself ultimately. It's like weirdly lonely to have this dream come true and you wanna jump around, but like people wanna jump with you,

but then they wanna go do the thing that they're doing in their life. And so like, there is this thing I think about like, self-celebration that I think is really important. Why don't I let this really live for me? You know, like be present to it, which is not always easy. Well, aren't the things we're working for supposed to give us joy and should we be celebrating that?

Well, this is what I'm saying. It doesn't just have to be this thing that you're doing to get to this other thing that you think you want, that the thing that you think if you do that will get you that other thing you want. It's't just have to be this thing that you're doing to get to this other thing that you think you want, that the thing that you think if you do that will get you that other thing you want. It's like, what about just this? Right now, this thing. But I also feel like the universe,

I mean, they're not giving you these moments, you've earned these moments, but like the Sardis portrait that they're gonna put up in the restaurant, which, you know, I mean, those walls are painted with the most iconic Broadway movie stars, I mean, you name it. Forever and ever. Forever and ever and ever.

I mean, there's an iconic scene in The Muppets Take Manhattan where Kermit sits under his own portrait. Cut to me doing that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, right, right. But I mean, I do feel like those moments when you are doing this thing that you wanted to do so badly that you held out for this play, you made time and space in your schedule,

it is costing you something to do it every night. And then it's placed in a theater that is right next to the restaurant where your mother used to wait tables. And later in a few weeks, you're going to be honored by their placing a portrait of you on that wall and you're gonna bring your mother to that spot. It's like, that's the gift too,

and you absolutely need to be enjoying all the things along the way. I know, and it's like why I took the video of me walking towards the theater for the first time when the lights were on and up, and I cried. And I just was like, this is an absolute dream come true, and I'm not gonna pretend it isn't, and I'm not gonna, and I want to take this moment for myself to say, holy shit, you dreamt about this

as a little, like literally dreamt about it, and here it is. And I think sometimes, particularly in the world we're living in now, everything moves so quickly that you've had the experience and are through with it before you've even let anything settle. I'm so proud of you. Aren't you?

Yeah, I really am. You are. Yeah. Are we done? I mean, we can be. Jewett. I don't know. You tell me what you need, what you want, what's your dream?

Well, I mean, look, I feel like you talk about Holland so much. Yeah. Well, something, this is a thing. This is what I will ask. You don't have to answer it. We all know that there's an age difference. Yeah. What I find interesting is that, I difference. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. What I find interesting, I didn't know this,

this is the first long-term serious relationship she's been in. Yes. And you, I know that you were engaged. I know that you were, I met you when you were with Cherry Jones. Yes. I know you've had several long relationships.

Yes. I mean, you just kind of assume that when you're dating people who are older than you, that there's more life experience in certain areas. Well, she has lots of life experience. She does, yeah. It's just, and she dated plenty of people.

But this is what she considers the first serious relationship. This is the first time she's ever lived with anyone. Even though we half live together, we have the best thing ever, which is, she goes to her house and I go to my house and then we're together when we want to be, it's great.

Which is, we're together a lot. But, yeah, I think, I think Holland, one of the many amazing things about Holland is that she really, and I mean this really truly, she really kind of beats to her own drum. And she grew up, her siblings, she has two older sisters who are I believe six years older than she is. And so the age difference was enough

that she was sort of alone a lot as a youngster. Her siblings were at school at a boarding school when she was sort of in her formative years. And so she spent a lot of time by herself, and she likes it. And so in order to kind of infiltrate that, I think it would take a particularly special person. Just kidding. But I think, you know, she dated one person in particular

for a while off and on, but it was never... I mean, we're over nine years now. I know, that's incredible. So that's like, it's my longest. Is it? Yeah, my longest, before that was Cherry, and then Tracy and I were together for about four. Yeah, I think also, you know, it was really a different,

she obviously, because of our age difference, grew up in a very different time in our culture, in terms of being out and in the open. She certainly lived her life always quite out, but publicly she was not. It was really our relationship that kind of made it more public about her. From what I remember,

she's the one that sort of referenced it first. She did, yeah, she did. And on a podcast, I believe. That's what happens on these podcasts. See, people say seriously things. You get food in the belly, you fly people with all questions and microphones, and people just start saying all kinds of stuff.

Wacky things. Wacky things, but she, yeah, I think she really enjoys her own company, which is a kind of incredible thing. And she's just wildly smart and creative and interested. She's the most curious person. Yes, I sat next to her at Zachary Quinto's birthday dinner and it was kind of the first time

I'd spent some serious time with her. First of all, I mean, I understand completely. She's such an incredible person. But yeah, she had so many questions for me. She's a really curious person and she's not just asking if she hates small talk. She's genuinely interested. And she will talk to anyone about anything

and she's interested in other people's lives. And so, but I do think a lot of it had to do with a societal story about she wasn't quite sure what that would look like in her life. Right. Career wise, whatever, I'm sure some of that was present in conjunction with there wasn't the person that she wanted to make that leap with. Right, right, right.

Until me, guys. What can I say? I have that effect on people. People are obsessed with me. It's wild. People are obsessed with me. When you meet me, you're just like, I can be with no one else. It's you or no one, Bestie.

Hey, Bestie. Hi, Bestie. Hey, Bestie. Hey, Bestie. Hi, Bestie. Hey, Bestie, we're gonna check out now. Hey, Sarah. Yeah, hi Jess. I don't want you to worry about the bill

because you know what? Dinner's on me. Dinner's on me. Next week on Dinner's on Me, the self-proclaimed, internationally tolerated drag queen and actor, Jinx Monsoon. We'll get into her iconic morning ritual, how sobriety changed her life, and she tells us about her latest project, playing Audrey in Little Shop of Horrors off Broadway. And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now

by subscribing to Dinners on Me Plus. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad-free. Just click Try Free at the top of the Dinners on Me show page on Apple Podcasts to search your free trial today. Dinners on Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson.

It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Angela Vang. Sam Baer engineered this episode. Hans-Dyl She composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tamika Balanz-Kalasny and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.