Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Shoshana Bean — On Taking Over As Elphaba In Wicked And Owning Mother Roles On Stage

Episode Date: April 28, 2026

Broadway legend Shoshana Bean joined the show. Over bourekas and a Jerusalem breakfast, Shoshana walks me through that wild moment when she had to step in as Elphaba in ‘Wicked’ on Broadway after Idina Menzel’s unexpected injury. Plus, we get into her latest Broadway show, ‘The Lost Boys’ based on the ‘80s film, and why vampires are a compelling allegory for feeling like an outsider. This episode was recorded at Miriam on the Upper West Side, NYC.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Right now, our family is living that New York theater life. I'm performing in a play right now called True, where I get to play Truman Capote, and the kids are here with me, and I'm working in the city, which is amazing. I love it so much. It also means I'm juggling a lot. Between rehearsal schedules, school drop-offs, figuring out dinner in between shows, and then making sure everyone has what they need, it's hard enough just getting through the day, let alone planning ahead. And while we're here in New York fully immersed in this, you know, this season of life, it got me thinking about how our place back home is just sitting empty. If you're going to be away for a while, like me, listing your space on Airbnb can be a great way to put your space to use and earn a little extra cash while you're gone. And the idea of doing it all by yourself, see, now that just feels like too much. That's where Airbnb's co-host network comes in. You can partner with a local vetted co-host who can handle all the behind-the-the-scenes. details, so hosting feels manageable. Even when your schedule is as packed as mine might be,

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Hey, it's Jesse Tyler Ferguson. I am in rainy New York City. Actually, this is the building I used to go to school in, the Ansonia building. It's where Ander used to be housed. Today on the show, we have my good friend Shoshana Bean. You know her from iconic performances and waitress, hairspray, wicked. She's currently on Broadway in the new Broadway production of The Lost Boys. I'm like, you can't let this woman not take her final bow after.

I don't know why I'm getting emotional about it, but like you live for that last weekend. I feel like she was robbed of that. This is Dinner's On Me, and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. So today we're at Miriam on New York's Upper West Side. I chose this place because they are known for their Mediterranean breakfast. Think Shishukas, Berekhas, Berekhas. It's super cozy. I love this place.

It's been around in New York for about 20 years now. It's named after the chef's mother, Miriam, who instilled him with this belief that, you know, hard work pays off and everyone should be treated with kindness. And it certainly shows in this warm environment that they've considered. Like I said, it's been a staple for 20 years in New York City, and Shoshana has been a staple on Broadway in New York for 20 years. So I thought this would be a perfect place to catch up with my old friend. All right, she should be getting here soon.

Let's get to the conversation. When am I going to get to see your show? You can come see True. In someone's house, apparently. Yeah, it's done in a Vanderbilt mansion. And so I was like, we need a spot where we can, it can look like someone where Truman Capote would live. but we don't have to spend money on a crazy set. So I was like, we need to find, we're in New York.

Let's find a place that exists that's just like rich with history. You walk in, you're like, oh my God, where am I? And then we can add like couches and some like, you know, paintings and stuff to make it look like his apartment. So we found this old Vanderbilt mansion on 95th and Park Avenue. It's now a place of worship, but they have this library that they literally, so this is what rich people did back in like, the turn of the century. They'd like go to Italy, Umbrio, and be like, I like this library. Sure, sure, sure. I would like it shipped to my house. So they'd cut the library out of this building and put it on a boat. As is. As is. Put it on a boat in pieces. Recreate. No, no, no, no, no, no.

Not inspired by. Cut it out of the building. Ship it across the ocean. We are so gross. Americans are so gross. We just just steal this from Italy. Well, do we still do this out of 100% we do other harm. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We do worse things, yeah. Statutes. We'll take that statue, please. Thank you.

So that is from... So the library I'm in is a 16th century library from Umbrio. Wow. But the... So that's where I'm performing in this library. That the Vanderbilt's were like, we'll take one of those, please. And I... And the house itself is this old Vanderbilt house.

It's gorgeous. Like, from the minute you walk in, you're like, where am I? But it's a church? Now it's a place of worship, so they have like the little chapels. But they use it for. for like events and weddings and concerts. There's a lot of concerts that are, I have some friends who,

whose kids have, like, their violin concerts at this place. But the funny thing is, because it still is it still operating as an event space, we are sort of, like there are moments where I feel like I'm doing the Classiest New York thing, and then there are other moments

where I feel like I'm doing a high school play. You're doing Godfell off Broadway in 1999. Because like we're like literally taking the set out so that they can like have our midst for the next day. Yes, yes. And so my sketch, So that's all to say my schedule is all over the map. And I do have like random Thursday matinees, which maybe you can come to one of those.

I will say, because it's mostly just me, Charlotte Danbois has a tiny little part. It's one of my swans. But it's, it's, I have 99.9% of the dialogue. And I have been having, and actually I want to ask you about this because I have been experiencing. And I don't know if it's like, I feel like it's getting worse as I'm getting older, but like anxiety around expectations of me specifically when I put myself out. there and like things that are risky. I've had this, the wildest anxiety dreams. The other day, okay, and I think part of it's because I just watched that top model documentary.

Have you watched this? No, God, no. It's fascinating. Okay. Like, even if you were never a top model fan, like, is it so fascinating? Yeah, no, I think it's pretty fascinating. It's just like a moment in like pop culture, like, wow, we, that was a thing that happened. So that was like, I had just watched it.

And then I'm in rehearsal for the show. and I have this insane nightmare that I have been cast as a judge on the reboot of Top Model and I said yes before thinking about it and then they wouldn't let me quit and then I got cancelled like the whole world cancelled me

the whole world canceled me like everyone was in and they're like his career's over his career is done and it was like it felt real and I woke up and for like a whole day I was like it's coming having a panic attack about it because of this fake thing

that happened to in my head about me being a judge on top model, but it was all tied into like me having anxiety about doing this thing on stage. I love this for, I love this, not that you're having anxiety and not that you felt for a whole day that you might be canceled, but I love that at your level of success at this stage in your career,

that there are still things that terrify you. I get it because I do understand, again, not to the extent that you experience it, and certainly my success doesn't compare to yours, but I do find at this stage of life that there is a weird feeling of an expectation that follows. Once you've had many, many years and have created many, many things,

I do feel like, whether it's a phantom expectation or a real expectation. That history creates expectation. Your name, then you feel like, well, I got to at least deliver as much if not better than the last thing I did. When we first got here in almost the same year, when we first arrived here, we had nothing to lose. Only things to prove, right? So like there's this like

fearlessness and fire that I now find that I'm like, I've a lot to lose and like, do I have any? A lot, still something to prove, right? Well, when you create a career, it's like, yeah, then you sort of have to like, you have to maintain the fortress. that you created and like keep the buttresses up. But my point is you could very easily play it safe. Yes. And maintain, you know, what people expect of you.

And I love that you took a big swing and took a big risk. That it's big enough to make you feel anxious and scared. I love that. And may you always. I know. I do feel like if I'm not feeling nervous about something, then it's probably not the right thing to be doing. Or it's safe. You got to be uncomfy.

No, I agree. I agree with that. I'm so hyped about this. And welcome home. I love when you're here. I love being here. I mean, we did come to New York around the same time, right? I got here in 94.

Do you got here a little after me, right? 99. 99, yeah. Hi, Calvin. Welcome back. Welcome back to us. Glad to have you. Is your first time here?

I've been to the one downtown. Have you been here before? No. Okay. I'm going to wait for you. Jerusalem breakfast. Very nice. Very nice.

With a little avocado spread, tomato. You have burqas? Very good, spinach and ricotta felt. Oh, well, I don't have a choice then. I have to have burqa. That's what I was thinking about getting too. It's, it's, I bet it's like, well, we'll see how you do it. It's really, really nice and hard-boat eggs on the side.

I'm a bureca snob, so you guys. I'm sure we'll- I'm sure. Should I get something different? I'll do the Turkish eggs since you're getting burqas. I might have a body of your face. You can share. I'll do the turkey.

Thank you. Yes. Yes, water, maybe? Yes, water. Sparkling still? Still. I'll have some more coffee. Do you want more coffee?

All right, I got you. Another cappuccino. Thank you. Or just a shot I can pour it in. I got you. Yeah, thank you so much. I feel like where we really connected in New York, aside from probably doing benefits and stuff like that,

because we never worked together. No. But you were in Circle and the Square in Spelling Bee, and I was at the Gershwin in Wicked, and so we were across the driveway, essentially, from each other. That's right. Which, even if we didn't see each other or hang,

it felt like a... Yeah, we were in the same building, literally. Yeah. Yeah, no, for sure. I mean, you were always just someone that, I mean, we came, we grew up together basically here. I mean, we came at the same time. You, you, you, I'm confused because I always assumed like you were, like, you wanted to do, you had the desire for a music career more than musical theater.

Yeah. Is that, is that correct? 100% correct. But you went to school in Cincinnati for musical theater. Yeah, at the time, we didn't have reality competition shows. we didn't have, like, direct line of communication via social media to label. We didn't have the kind of information. And I couldn't, my parents were, like, colleges and non-negotiable.

Well, your dad is, was very, he likes, I look for my love your father. He's so cute. He'll be so happy to hear that. He's so adorable. He's a little bit famous. Yeah, he is. He is. Yeah.

Did he enjoy, like, soul music and R&B? Yes. music, my dad is like, I think that if he had sort of been of a generation that was encouraged to find and foster their passions and their skills, he probably would have been in music somehow. Yeah, they all, their fingerprints, all my parents and their sounds are all over me. So, I was lucky. What your career is now and like what you, you know, how, I could tell how that's influenced your voice and like your songwriting and that was what, uh, what.

was sort of my superpower when I got to college. Because I thought, oh, well, I fell and I sing legit. Well, I'm with Christy Keynes and Leslie Crits and all these monsters. So I'm like, well, I know that I have this sort of like love of soul and R&B. Like maybe that's going to be the thing. It really was for me always like, how do I set myself apart? How do I be different than all of these incredible women? And that was always sort of, so I think that it was in college that I was like,

I'm going to lean into this. And of course, it got me in trouble all the time. What really got me in trouble was never an intention to be irreverent or, like, disobey the rules. It literally comes out of me as a different moment as an actor would come out of you. Right. You know what I mean? It's grounded in something. Reacting to what's happening in the moment, what's coming out of you, what your co-stars, what the people around you are giving you.

And so for me, it comes out that way in music. So it was as hard to maintain the black dots on the page, you know, what was written in the ink as it is to not, you know, take a different take on a line. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Shoshana shares what it was like performing as a backup singer from Michael Jackson at Madison Square Garden, and we get into her stepping into the role of Elphaba and Wicked after Adina Mansell's injury after a stage mishap. Okay, be right back.

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that time. Wait, but wait. No, we're not moving on from that. I'm sorry, leader of the back. We should. Wait, what? I didn't know this. Yeah. When did that happen? That would have been 2001. for his 30th anniversary concert at Madison Square Garden. So we rehearsed for like two, three weeks at Chelsea Pierce. Yes. Two-night event. The J-5 came back together. That's the Jackson five for youngsters.

Whitney, Ray Charles. Oh, my God. Usher, Brittany, In sync, Destiny's Child, Gladys Knight, Jill Scott. But it's funny because I've since become friends with Usher. and I was like, bro, I have our rehearsal tapes from that day up in like a little, like now if you go do an event at Chelsea Pierce, they'll put you in like a little room as your dressing room.

And it was me, Luther, Usher, the rest of the backup singers, and a pianist, like rehearsing up in those little rooms. And I recorded everything. And I was like, sent it to him. Wait, Usher and Luther were doing backup. They sang a duet. They sang, I'm Man in the Mirror together. Got it.

But so this happened, it was a two-night event. It was televised. I think you can see it on like YouTube or something. but there was the first night which was like fucking levitating and then the second night was September 10th

2001 and I remember leaving Madison Square Garden and seeing Usher drive away in a limo out those stretch limos that we used to use out the roof like just like it was just like the it was the greatest night that anyone had ever experienced

and I went home and went to bed because I had to get up the next morning to go to my office job and my alarm went off and it was like staying in your homes they're advising you don't get on the train where were you living at that time in Astoria

okay my roommate was Clacey Clacey Miller now Clacey Judeay and I was like what is going on and she's like I don't know but your parents called a couple of times

if you were okay and I was like did you turn on the news do you think we should turn on the news and like we could see it from our apartment we had a really great view

of the city and yeah same we could see it and that was like the one of those weird moments in life where you're like... Everything changed. How do you go from like the highest high of your whole life?

Oh my God. It took a... That's wild. How many, like 24 hours to two days for it to settle in what actually had just happened? Like, nothing makes, it didn't make sense. We've never seen anything like that. Thank you. Oh, wow.

That's incredible. Oh, my mom is interesting. Some feeder. Okay. You know. Extra love. Oh, my God. And then we have the chop salad here.

Okay. This is also our Jerusalem breadstick. Can I take anything out of our room? Can I finish with the coffee? No. Of course not. I'm sorry. I want to keep my hands.

We are lit though, Calvin. Like, why do I shake you? What did you? Is it Turkish? It's a good time. Where is this coffee from? What did you put in this coffee? Officianado.

It's really strong. Very good stuff. And I feel like I have a good. Hi, everybody. Are you guys in charge? Well, this is chef. Ah, chef! Well, what's your name?

Shoshana. So nice to meet you. My mom is going to be thrilled I'm eating a burrinka. Miriam is chef's mom. Oh, no way. Is this all inspired by her? Aw. Nice to meet you.

Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Happy to be here. Thank you, love. This is incredible. Thank you. Do you want some burraca? I want to try it, yeah.

How is it? It's amazing. Yeah, and I'm a snob about it too. Thank you. Yeah. So, I know you've talked about this at Nausee, but we're going to talk about it. Let me guess. What is it?

I guess. Wicked. Of course. So we had Adina on the show, too. Who? Tuesday. My fucking legend. I know.

But, I mean, you were in a very interesting position because, first of all, that show, as you know, Like in hindsight, it's the biggest thing that's happened on Broadway since. And you were there really the very beginning. And it was Adina and Kristen's show. And, you know, it was this phenomenon. And then you were the first person to come in. You and Jennifer Lower Thompson were the first two people to come in and sort of take these roles and make them your own thing. And like sort of start that legacy of people being able to create other versions of these characters.

and the way that, you know, you started the show was insane. And, you know, Dina, on the episode that she did with us, I made her, even though she's also talked about it at Nausem, you were going to take over the role in a few days, and you had been covering her for a few months. Had you gone on before for her? Many times. And so everyone is there, like everyone had come in to see her last weekend of shows.

And I love this. I love torturing. Yeah. And six minutes before one of her final performances, she is rushed to the hospital. And you're backstage. They're quickly putting you in green paint. No. No? We were upstairs. The Gershwin is a huge theater and they have their own rehearsal space. So we were upstairs. Me and Megan, because Megan was a standby with me at the time. Megan, healthy.

And we're with the stage manager and we're just stepping through reviewing things because I'm going to take over on Tuesday. And again, I'd been on a million times, but like, you know, we're just... Yeah, you're about to take over for wheels. Keeping the wheels greased. And they came up to get Kristen, and they were like, you got to come, something happen. They were like, okay, so we all run down. And then it took them, like, obviously they didn't know what had happened to her. They didn't want to move her.

They had to wait for the ambulance and come. And all the while, they're just holding the show. I think they held for like 45 minutes. I could be wrong, but I think it was like... And in my mind, I'm like, there's three months. minutes left of the show, obviously they're going to just let people go home. Right. And so we held and we held it.

Nowhere in my mind am I like, I got to go get ready and go on. And sure enough, at one point they're like, we're finishing the show, go. And they got me ready in seven minutes. They just slapped the paint on, slap the wig on. Like, and I popped up and I go on for the last, Fierro that pop up, fear, there you are, because I knew you, and take the bow, which felt ludicrous, and the whole cast

is, like, hysterical. They don't know what, they don't know what's happened. And they, you know, saw it happen. So. What was the audience like? I don't think they, they didn't know what. Do you remember this night? Yeah, distinctly.

Okay. They had no idea what happened. So they just knew that, Edina. No, they had no idea. They didn't know how to. No, they didn't see her fault. She's behind the curtain. Did they think that you were her?

No, because they have to make an announcement and say, for the remainder of this performance, the roll-up movie that. For the remainder of 90 seconds. But I think they deduced that they would have had to give these people's money back or something. Even though it was like more than 75% of the show was done. Okay.

Yeah, and I remember going to hang with the crew guys in between being like, she'll be back. It's a dinnack. Oh, you mean between shows? Yeah, this was a matinee. Before the Saturday night show. And I remember going to John Riggins' office where they were playing poker

and sitting down with the guys. And I'm like, you guys, whatever. She's gonna be back. It's Adina. First of all, she's a tank. Like, she doesn't miss shows. And second of all, it's her last weekend. People flew in from all over the,

we all knew this. She's not gonna miss them. They're like, kiddo, you might as well consider tonight like your takeover. And I was like, this is, and it also felt horrible. Yeah.

Like you're taking something away from someone else. And also I knew I was like this audience is just going to hate me. And it was the complete opposite. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we return, Shoshana tells me about her conflicting feeling about taking over the role of Alphaba and Wicked earlier than expected. And she gets into her new role as Lucy Emerson and The Lost Boys musical on Broadway right now. Okay, be right back.

I'm Jenna Fisher. And I'm Angela Kinsey. And together we have the podcast Office Ladies. Just because we finish rewatching the office does not mean we're going anywhere. Every Wednesday we'll be sharing even more exclusive stories from the office and our friendship with brand new guests. Plus, you can revisit all the Office Ladies rewatch episodes every Monday with new bonus tidbits before every episode. So follow and listen to Office Ladies on the free Odyssey app and wherever you get your podcast. I want to tell you guys about a podcast that is near and dear to my heart, and I cannot believe it already came out

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From how I remember it, it came news very quickly, because it was, you know, the show was so big. And her leaving was such... Nothing had ever happened like that. No. And her leaving was such a big deal. And the fact that it was cut so short and so kind of, and it's such an insane way, I just feel... And this is what I love about Broadway. The theater community comes together in ways that, like, you never expect it to.

And there's such generosity of spirit. And so I... It doesn't support. me when you say that, like, you were met with nothing but love. But that wasn't the theater community. That was fans of the show and Adina who came from, you know, people who were like, what the fuck? Who is this?

Who just, like, took the ride? Yeah. Yeah. It's wild. And then on her final show, when she, and this is what I really made her talk about. I think she was lit on paint bills. She was lit on paint bills. She doesn't remember it at all.

She's such a dog. But she basically, in the last, you know, three minutes of the show on that Sunday, that was supposed to be her last performance. From the moment she had fallen. From the moment she had fallen, she walks out in her red track suit. And you, who had been now playing the role for a performance in seven-eighths, step aside, and then her finished the show. And, I mean, what was that like? Like, what did it feel like to have her walk on stage and feel that wave of love for her? It was the best possible thing they could do because I'm like, you can't let this woman

not take her final bow after. I don't know why I'm getting emotional about it, but like putting everything you put into something to originate it and like take that ride and you live for that last weekend, for like a release and to let people just like give you your flowers and, you know, I feel like she was robbed of that. feel like it all, for her to be able to walk on and have that last moment and it was such a great honor. It felt, and so it was a thrill to be able to be like, please. And then it felt weird to bat. I remember being like, someone made me a book of all the pictures of that last day. Uh-huh. And you can see me just like, I don't want to take the bow. And like, even though I had done the show,

it's like, this weekend is supposed to be about her. And I just remember feeling like, yeah. Yeah. don't make this in any way about me. I, like, wanted her to have me. That show also, I remember, like, when I first heard the music, I was like, oh, my God, like, that's, I mean, she's singing. I mean, she's really singing. And, you know, when you were talking about, like, Stephen Rima,

the musical director, like, you know, wanting you to stick to the notes on the page, like, and fighting against that. Well, to be fair, there were certain moments where he's like, we'll grant you, I'll raise you this if you, you know, like, we negotiate. Okay, got it. And there was one infamous time where my levitator didn't go up. And there was a protocol for that that you unhook and you walk straight down to the lip of the stage and you just deliver the song. Uh-huh.

And everyone else is sort of like lay flat on the ground. Because that's supposed to be below you. He's supposed to be flying. Yeah. Yeah. So he happened to be in the house that day and I unhooked and I marched down stage and I just ripped the shit out of the end of Defying Gravity. And he was the, came right into my dressing room afterwards and he was like, yes, great, right thing to do, never again.

And I was like, absolutely, you gotta give me a free pass. You have to give me a free pass. He was like, yes, never again. And I was like, you got it. The best it felt so good. Were people going crazy? I don't remember. I love that, like, in a moment of panic, you just rip. You're just rip. Like, I wish I had that super power. It was also like anger. Like, it was also like, you know, it's the one moment people come for and I couldn't give it to them. Well, it's not the one moment, but yes, it is a moment. It's one of the moment. You know. Oh, my God.

And after, so shortly after that, that's when you moved to L.A., right? Yeah, right after that. And how did that, where did that decision come from? I just think that after Wicked, where do you go? What do you do after that? That's what I say after every time I see Wicked. After Wicked, where, what? Now what?

Now what. And also, like, it was like a huge dream come true. And sometimes when you have a dream come true, you're like, whoa, this is what it is. Like, it's hard to have a role of that size and have no life. Like it's and no one really at the time was sort of like a mentor to me or a source of like here's how to create balance and like have a rich for life and have your dream come true but also be happy. Yeah. And so to me it felt like I got to get the hell out of town and get as far away from because I didn't know how to say no at the time either.

Right. And it was always like some reading, some benefits, some workshop. And I just was like I don't want to do this. But I mean this you sort of, you know, in. I mean, my perception was that you did sort of like leave musical theater on that, here on this coast and like came to L.A. and just kind of what it felt like sort of kickstarted a pop career. I mean, like, or you know, well, you know, a musical, definitely a successful musical career. I mean, and but I also know for you like, first of all, you produce so much of your own stuff. I mean, I know you put a lot of like your own resources into. creating that music. And I mean, was it, was it something? I mean, I know you had a lot of mentors. And there are certainly a lot of, I know a lot of people who are very, very famous in the music world who, like, really respect you and, like, love you so much. Who was, like, mentoring you

through that and who would, did you have anyone sort of helping you out or? No, I think the, no, I think people would come and go very quickly. Like, you know, one of the first people that was sort of like the reason that I moved to LA was Brian McKnight. I was working with him a little bit and his manager and his label. And that was sort of like the excuse I needed to get out there. But they sort of came and went quite quickly. And no, I think that I ended up doing it myself for better or for worse. And certainly now all these years later, I'm grateful because I navigated my own sort of

exploration as an artist and my own expression. And I didn't have anyone breathing down my neck and I don't owe people money. And I own all my own masters. And I just still see so much yuck in the music industry. And so many artists just like shackled and in debt forever trying to repay these advances. And I'm just so grateful that I – it always felt like a curse that I was doing it independently. But now I look back and I'm like, thank God. Because I am full of freedom.

It was hard. I mean, I remember going to your O'Farrell concert. that concert blew me away. I mean, that was such an incredible evening of live music. And I know how much blood, sweat and tears you put into it and, you know, money. And, I mean, I just, every time I saw you, I was like, how is this, how are we not, like, how is the whole world not just celebrating this? I mean, it's so incredible.

Thanks, power. And, I mean, your songwriting is wonderful. Obviously, your vocals, but also there was just like a level of class to what you were doing. that just very few people know how to do. The taste level was so high. And I mean, it's why you have so many respected artists who I think truly just love what you do. I mean, because you have the skill,

but also the taste level. And, I mean, I was always frustrated that more people weren't, that more people didn't know who you were and, like, weren't being celebrated, you know, in the mainstream. as I feel like you should have been. Do you, I mean, I know that when you put so much of yourself and your own resource into something,

you're ultimately going to feel like, you know, it's worth it, but at the same time, like it's, there's a price that you pay when you do that. I mean, what was, what were those years like for you in L.A.? when you were doing something that you wanted to do so deeply and were so good at, and yet you are always having to sort of self-thews, motivated too.

I think that I thought probably in the, at the time, it sucked because it was just scraping together whatever, like it was just making meals out of crumbs, essentially. And I always, I mean, I'm always voracious for more. And better and expansion.

And, you know, so, but I look back on those times And I'm like, God, those are the best. Those weekly shows at Bar-R-R-R-Mont. Yeah. You know, those getting to sort of like become a member of the music community out there, the musicians. I learned so much from being friends with these people. And speaking of taste level and, like, musicianship and writing. And, like, it was such a master class in a crash course.

So, like, if I had done my studying in musical theater and moved to New York and sort of, like, you know, done the Broadway thing. It was like I went back and I did grad school in L.A. in jest music and being around these people. And, you know, the people that you would hear play with me at those, you know, weekly shows are the best musicians in the business. And I'm grateful that I know how to do all these things. I know how to produce shows.

I know how to, you know, get the band together. I know how to make an album. I'm so grateful that I'm so grateful that I. I know that. I know so many people who are like can't self-start because they don't even know how to do it or like waiting for someone else to do it or, you know, at the mercy of I just, I'm grateful now. But I can guarantee you that that girl was like wildly dissatisfied and frustrated and really thinking. And I'm sure I still do on some level. Think that every next part, this is going to be the one that moves the needle. This is going to be the one that like, you know, I'm waiting for like that slingshot moment. But every once in while I get an opportunity to go like it hasn't been a slingshot. It has been a slingshot. It has been. fucking, like, not even brick, but, like, pebble by pebble building this, like, I don't even know what I'm building yet, but I'm still building

and it is beat by beat. I mean, you know, you've done this incredible work of, like, taking over for different people, like in Wicked and then Waitress, which you were so, so incredible in. In fact, I don't know if you know this, but Sarah Borellas called me because she knew we were friends. She goes,

listen, your Princess Shawna, she's incredible, but is she, like, a nice person? Because, like, I want to, like, I was like, well, I was like, no, I was like, she is not only one of the most talented people I've ever met in my entire life, but she is the kindest person and she's going to, she's the hardest worker. So I'm not saying I got you that part, but I definitely like was a reference. Thank you. You know who got me that part in Gavin. Oh, sweet Gavin. Yeah. I miss him every day, every day. These pictures are hanging in my dressing room. Oh, my God. Yeah, I'm sure you feel him all the time.

I do. Yeah. I do. He's very present. Yeah. Yeah. They must have been hard up. No, I'm kidding.

That they were like, it just was a straight up offer. And I was like, an offer. They don't want me to like get in the room and with you. Because they called me and I said just off the car. That's right. You sealed the deal, babe. No, I don't know whatever it was. And then like, you know, it ended up just being like such a beautiful experience.

God, you were so good in that. But it was also for me, like, I was like, okay, people are now seeing what you can do because you were given opportunity in a way that you had not before. I mean, I do think that it's such a changing point in your career, and I was so excited that you were back in New York, and, like, you had this opportunity, and I think that, you know, it was such an exciting shift in your career. Yeah, that show broke me open.

Yeah. Yeah. I can tell. Also, you know, there's something about being an unwilling mother and having, like, that be part of the story. Yeah. But then what I find interesting is, like, now, you know, And since then, like, you know, with Lost Boys, you're playing a mother.

And then also in Alicia Keys' musical, House Kitchen, you were playing a mother. And bedwether. Was there? Because I remember when I first got Modern Family and I was, like, going to be a dad. I was like, oh, am I already there? Am I already at the parent roles? Brandon, it was like, you know, a dad of like a baby. So I was like, okay, at least it's a baby.

Like, it's not, you know, a teenager. But, like, am I already there? And, I mean, it was definitely a moment where I was like, I had to sort of be like, okay, I have to be okay with this. I mean, what was... Now, listen, in the Hell's Kitchen musical you were playing, granted, a mother who became a mother at a young age, but, you know, the mother of basically Alicia Keys' character.

Yeah. I mean, tell me about that. I still struggle with it. I mean, being another, about three in a row, after just playing someone's daughter. Right, really crystal slaughter, yeah. It was really tough for me, because I like you was like

I'm now old enough to play a mom and is this all that's left for women of my age am I always because it feels like you know whether it's an audition or an offer it feels like everything is mom stuff now which like part of me is so honored because I'm not a mother in real life and I know that

that I have a maternal energy and I do love being able to sort of like you know I know that's a superpower to utilize in these situations and I do fall so deeply in love with these children and sort of like make them my own. But it is, it's a, it's a challenge because it means aging and it's an ego thing.

And I just also am like, is this all that's left for women of my age? We just resign to playing moms. Like, I'm not done. And so part of me was like, I'm not doing loss. I'm not doing another mother role. And there was something, that was louder than my head that made the decision. What was that?

My heart was just, my heart was tugging me towards working with Michael. My heart was tugging me towards working for three dudes we grew up with Jimmy and Patrick and Marcus. And like my heart was pulling me towards this kid, L.J., who's playing the star, you know, my son, the star of the show. And like the music, it just was like there's something else that you don't logically know yet. You need to be in this room with these people. You had something to say about it. Well, I didn't know that yet, but I knew that, like, again, it was just something I couldn't explain. I just was like, everything in my body is like, this is a yes.

While everything in my mind was like, this is not the, this doesn't make sense as the next thing. But I'm glad that I listened to my, to my body and my heart because I have had such a beautiful experience these past six weeks. It's just, we're two months, I guess, now. Did you see the film? Only when I got the offer Because when I was younger, while I was the world's biggest Gory Hame fan And did not miss a single film of his

I couldn't watch scary movies And this was a scary movie Same, I was nervous to watch it I've since seen it But it's so much more than a vampire film I mean that's... Tell me, everybody has like a different Tell me why you say that

I mean I just well I think it's a For me it's a coming of age film I mean, that's what I would categorize it as. And I feel like, you know, the vampires, you know, are a, it's like an allegory. It's that's the right word? It's a metaphor. Thank you. It's a metaphor for, you know, being an outsider and, like, you know, trying to fit in and being different.

So interesting. I mean, I'm sure that these are themes that are you're talking about in rehearsal. No, and it's funny because, well, I'm not a vampire. Sorry, to spoil it. So I haven't been a preview to these conversations if they're. been had. But my stepbrother was saying that he went to Hebrews, the first time he saw the movie, he went to Hebrew school and his Hebrew school teacher, who was gay in the early mid-90s, played them the movie to talk about being othered and feeling like he identified as a gay

man with the vampires. And that's how society made him feel. And I was like, what? I didn't get that when I watched the movie, but it's so interesting. Well, that's what's so brilliant about, like, I hate you use the word art in a pretentious way I don't mean to but like But your legs are crossed and you're talking with your hands So I'm just going to not be ready I'm going to take it as pretentious Art

But that you can You know for people who are feeling other Like they can look at something like that And identify with it But it's also it's like it's almost like a secret Like no one else knows about it And it's like the movie or the piece of speaking to you And a secret about like you and I know what this is about

I know what this is about I adore you so much. I'm so grateful you to do this. Do you want to talk more? I kind of want them to have to cut us off. Bam, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, bum, just music starts playing. This episode of Dinner's On Me was recorded at Miriams on Manhattan's Upper West Side. Next week on Dinners On Me, you might know him from The Killing. He's also on two amazing shows right now for all mankind on Apple TV Plus and Netflix's

Detective Hole. It's Joel Kinneman. We'll dive into acting in Swedish for the first time in over a decade, what it's like to age 40 years on screen and why he's especially excited about what's next in his ever-evolving career. And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinner's On Me Plus. As a subscriber, not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad-free. Just click try free at the top of the Dinners-On-Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinner's On Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions.

It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf. Sam Bear engineered this episode. Hans Dale She composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tamika Balanced Kalasney and Justin McKita.

I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.