Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Side Dish: More Jon Bernthal

Episode Date: May 21, 2026

More of my interview with 'The Punisher’ star Jon Bernthal. Jon tells me some moving stories from folks, including those who have been incarcerated, featured on his podcast, Real Ones. Plus, we reflect on chasing perfection and coping with insecurities in our stage work – me with TRU and him with Dog Day Afternoon. This episode was recorded at Cafe Cluny in NYC’s West Village. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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unforgettable people. Follow and listen wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Jesse Tyler Ferguson. This week's guest is John Bernthal. You know him from The Walking Dead and The Punisher. And I know him as my old co-star from my very first television show, The Class, almost 20 years ago. Wow. He's currently making his Broadway debut in Dog Day Afternoon. We met up at Lumet in Manhattan's West Village for breakfast. Now, to get back into the conversation, you're pulling up a chair as we talk about the impactful stories John tells on his podcast, the real ones.

I was listening to your podcast with Jamie Lee Curtis. You're talking about not drinking. I also stopped drinking a few years ago. And just listening to her talk about sobriety was really impactful and beautiful and eloquent. And, you know, the reason I love it so much is because it's so authentically you. and I feel like coming from you just feels really right. You know, you have a very deep interest in people who live their lives and then deal with the consequence afterwards.

I think that you've dealt with that in your own life. I think that your work reflects that. I think, you know, even in shows like The Punisher and certainly in Dog Day Afternoon, it's about like people who deal with consequences from the choices that they make. And that podcast, you know, the fact that you're allowing us. platform for so many people who have such deep stories that you and I could never even scratch the surface of is really impactful. I appreciate it, man. Look, I think that what's important. And again, it's like, Jesse, we're we're dads now, which is so crazy. You know what I mean?

It's so crazy. But like, that's what we are. And I think that, like, I just, when I think of my dad, like, my dad never gave up on me. Like, he never, and I gave him every fucking reason to. Like, Like, the first time I ever, you know, like got locked up. Like, my dad waited outside of that jail until, you know, like until I was set free. Like, he was out there the whole time. And, like, there was everybody in life was like, this kid's bad. Fuck this kid. Like, your decisions, like, these things that you do, they don't have to define you.

And I do believe that there is like this, there's this possibility for folks that have, like, really been through it and who have really fucked up and done, like, some of the worst things. I really believe like they and they only are in the sole position to go find other people that either have done those things or who might do those things and they're the only people that can like reach down into that valley. Because they trust you. Yeah, because it's like, look, I can look like, you're not preaching at me. You're not, like you know that shit. Like you know what rage is. You know what loss is. You know what hopelessness is. Like you've been down that fucking road. And brother, like, let me tell you, you have worth, you have value. You can get out of this. Like there's another way. there's a different way.

And they'll only listen to those people because anybody else is like, brother, you don't know what I've been through. Like you can't, you can't. And I also want everybody to know that it's never too late. Like it's never too late. Like it's never too late to have this like second chance to turn it all the fuck around to like be of service,

not just be selfish. And, you know, there's this guy, you know, there's this guy Brett May that I met inside Calapagia State Pritz. prison, you know, he's this beautiful guy. And like, look, you know, like, I'll be honest. Like, you know, he went away for murder. He was part of an armed robbery. And there was a, there was a murder that took place. It went awry. He didn't pull the trigger. But the way it works in California, you know, if somebody dies in the middle of a crime, it's like you all get life in prison. He

got life without parole. You know, and he went away. And, you know, while he was there, he got his high school degree, his college degree, his law degree. He became a writer. He started this program called the Elwap program, which was this creative writing program where Calapatra used to be one of the most deadly prisons in the entire country. And what he did is, there's all, you know, how it works, especially West of the Rockies, is it's all, you know, it's all, the politics of prison is all done by race. And, you know, these Elwop guys, these guys with no chance, these guys' life without parole, they're some of the biggest sort of, they're able to do some of the worst dirt, some of the, some of the most violent acts in prison, because they're not getting out

anyway, right? And since it's all divided by race, right. So what this guy did, he started this creative writing program, he broke all the racial boundaries. So it didn't matter what you were, you were LWOP. Come with me. Come pray with us, come learn with us, come write with us, come create with us. And this program, it cut down Calapatrias, it cut, it cut, down Cala Patriot's violence. It became one of the most safest yards in the entire state. And this guy's done...

So within the system he like made me strange. He just, he realized and but like beyond that, beyond that, it's not absolving him. Like somebody lost their life. Like he went into someone's home and someone lost their life. But there is no one I have ever met in my

life who is more associated and more, has more intimacy with their own shame that understands the gravity of what have done than this guy. And he is reflected on it. He's acted on it. He's created on it. He's reached out on it. He's made peace. He's made amends on it to whatever degree you can. And he realizes that like he is in this place where he can help so many people. And like he's ratcheted down. The potential for good in this guy is fucking boundless. And you know, we did this podcast and we did

advocate for him. And he's out now. And he was never supposed to get out. And he's doing so much fucking good. But I think about things like that and it's like you know, that's tricky territory. And Brett will tell you it's tricky territory. You know, but I do have to believe in it.

And first and foremost, I got to look at it as a dad. Because like our kids are going to fuck up and we're going to fuck up as parents. Like we just are. And I just want them to know it's never too late to keep striving and to also and to reach out and to understand

and everybody's coming from different circumstances. Yeah, you know? Yeah. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, I tell John my thoughts on his performance in Dog Day afternoon, and he tells me how he's adjusting to the demanding schedule of being a Broadway performer. Okay, be right back. Right now, our family is living that New York theater life.

I'm performing in a play right now called True, where I get to play Truman Capote, and the kids are here with me and I'm working in the city, which is amazing. I love it so much. It also means I'm juggling a lot. Between rehearsal schedules, school drop-offs, figuring out dinner in between shows,

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Fabio Semin-Tilly. Big hearts, big voice, big laugh. A rock star hairstylist who drove a Porsche. He was like a wizard behind the chair. The killers came for Fabio in his own backyard. You can't rationalize it. You can't figure it out. There was rampant speculation about everything.

But every wild. Wild theory was wrong because the truth was even more unbelievable. Well, is anyone hearing what I'm hearing? And even more heartbreaking. The uncertainty of not knowing is a form of agony. From Sony Music Entertainment and Novel, this is Cut Color Kill. I'm Jonathan Hirsch. Cut Color Kill is available now on The Binge.

Search for it wherever you get your podcast to start listening today. Subscribers to The Binge can listen to all episodes, all at once, ad free. And we're back with more dinners on me. Not every actor is made for the stage. I mean, I have seen some of my favorite actors of all time, who I love from their film work, just not translate on stage.

It's just not for everyone. Not everyone can do it. And you are a beast on stage, and you are made for the stage, whether or not you ever want to do it again after this is another thing, but you're one of those people that is made for the stage. And I hope you can feel that. But what I think,

What makes you right for the stage is exactly what you're saying. And it's that you are constantly looking for the perfection and not finding it and failing and willing to fail and willing to move past it. Because that's what I think a lot of the other actors who fail on stage, that's the trap they fall into us because they either get in their head when they fail or they don't allow themselves to fail. And you have to be able to have that. You'll never give a perfect performance on stage. And that's what's so brilliant about it. I think I thank you Jesse it's very kind of you and I do think that there's this insane I'm just trying to you know as I get older and I think as I'm old I'm not getting older I'm just old and like now I'm like I'm just like a dad first I'm always looking like what is the meaning like why like what is the pursuit like what is this about like why do you want to do these things and this was just like a no you know like I felt like hell to do this like I like had to do this and and I'm really glad that I'm doing it but yeah like what is what is that thing because I do get in my head and I do get

really hard on myself when it doesn't work and you know in front of a camera when there's a bad take I'm like you know I'm so upset and I'm like let's go and it has to be for some reason in my insane mind it has to be like a perfect take I never works like oh well that moment worked and that

and you know some people are like no no it's fine we'll figure it out in the edit I'm like fuck that dude yeah that is soft to shit when you like you've done a few takes and like I think we got it we got to move we can cobble something together with your bullshit that you just spray diarrhea all over our fucking movie. Yeah, man.

And so it's like, I want it to fucking happen on the day. I want it. But it is this like insane sort of like mining for getting better and like following something. And I know that that's like, you know, like the, like my, for me like my kind of philosophy in this for better force. Thank you very much. You know, I'm such a cheese. but I always talk about like the Moscow art theater and like and like the symbol of the Siegel and like you know that play and like chasing your dream and having it be like alive in

front of you and like following it wherever it goes not just trying to attain it or grasp it and so there is no moment of arrival there is no perfect performance there is no perfect night and you do constantly fit you do you do I don't know that that makes for like a healthy mindset yeah but it is that like you know I do I am in love love with this like every night you get this at bat every night you have this fight every night and the one thing i know is that you know when you talk about actors that have done it and now that i'm doing it right now like you and you know like my friend i oh and and like tessa and like these actors now who are like making this leap who don't necessarily have to but they're doing it i've got

so much fucking respect for it like you know it's just you know i come from boxing and i've always like people who like get in the fucking ring yeah and and put up or shit like you can talk all you want, you know, while you're hitting your bags or where you're hitting handpats. But let's get in the ring and everyone's going to find out exactly who you. And like very few people actually do it. You know, like very few people actually compete that way. And I have so much respect for people that do it. Yeah, I mean, that's a perfect analogy actually. And like I think in the acting world, like theater is the ring. I mean, there's nowhere to hide. You have to, we have to work with the emotion that you have in the moment. You can't manufacture anything. The minute you manufacture,

an ounce of something, people sniff it out, they know. You have to, and it's a traumatizing thing to put yourself through to go through, I mean, listen, some people do, you know, a lot of musical theater, and it's like, they just, they get to live in that world for two and a half hours. I mean, like, you know, with Dog Day afternoon, I know it's, it's a different place that you have to go to. Sure. And so, you know, it's, your body doesn't always recognize when, you know, it's fake.

And, like, you know, especially if you're doing it every night. I mean, I know with friends of mine who have done really heavy pieces, you know, that it really takes a toll on them. And they have a hard time recovering from a long run because, you know, their body is used to going through that trauma every night because they're putting themselves through it willingly. I don't even know about the recovery because you're always fucking there. Like I just realized like the place that I am more than anywhere else right now is literally on that stage doing it. Like that's kind of. Let me ask you this because I know you've done theater. before so it's not like totally new to you but the Broadway thing is is you know a new thing and

obviously at this level it's a new thing um yeah i was talking my friend sarah paulson about this when she was doing her her show on broadway um she and i were like getting so the thing that infuriates me so much is people who think like oh theater actors you just work two hours a night are you three hours a night bro i deal with you have the rest of the day my whole fucking life i mean you've met my family yeah my barbarian fucking friends and i mean they are all are just like, you don't really work. And there's like definitely some truth to it, but like, I don't know, man. I think I had that idea.

I think I thought, oh, wow, well, I'm going to have my days free. Yeah. Like, you know, I'll be able to do whatever. Yeah. You know, I'll be, like, I haven't gone out. Like, this is a socialist. I get, I mean, this is it. You know what I mean?

Like I, and like, you know, it is, it is like so fucking all encompassing. Yeah. And, you know, all day is like kind of. You're in preparation for it. And then you have those two show days where it's like gifted it twice. Yeah. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, I catch John up on how my show True is going,

and we dive into why it's so important to take big swings. Okay, be right back. And we're back with more dinners on me. Now, just for some important context for later in this part of the conversation, when John refers to Esteban, he's talking about the actor who plays his lover Leon in Dog Day Afternoon. Now, if you haven't seen the film, John plays a bank robber who, spoiler alert, is robbing a bank to pay for his transgender partner's feminization surgery. You've opened and you've settled into some sort of a run. Are you enjoying the process?

Are you like, I don't know. Are you? That's a great question because I, I mean, it depends. Obviously, when I met you, I come from the theater world. So, like, I was 20 years ago when we met. I had been doing musical theater, which is very different than, like, you know. I remember. I came and saw you in spelling.

Spelling beat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was amazing. But, you know, each show is different. And this play that I'm doing right now, it's just, it's just me. It's you. And so it's just, it's me for 90 minutes as Truman Capote. And it's just, it's a lot to get through that 90 minutes to, like, make it from the beginning to the end.

And there are times where, like, I'm like, at the first. 45 minute mark and I'm like in my head I'm like I don't know if I can do this but there's like physically or everything everything everything and there's a group of you know paying people who are in this room just staring at you watching you do it as you're thinking I don't know if I can do this so this has been a hard one for me so I when you ask you know I ask you if you're enjoying the process and to turn that question on me like I don't know if like enjoys the right word but I'm really fucking proud of myself for doing it beautiful and I'm I'm happy that I I feel like it's exactly what I need to be doing right now,

and it's stretching me in ways that, and scaring me in ways that I have, how is it scaring you? Just, it feels like, and I always feel like doing theater is like really being out there without a safety net. And in a way, like, I feel like, not only am I not, I don't have a safety net right now,

but I don't even really know how to be on the trapeze. Like, it feels like I'm really, it's like another level of danger. Sure. And I just feel like it's a big swing in a way, that, you know, when you've done something, and you probably have now felt a bit like this, when you are known for doing one thing.

And, you know, people who consume your work and the industry, you know, they all sort of pigeonhole you into this thing. And you have to work over time to counter-program what people think of you. Yeah. Because, you know, as I hate these words, that's why I'm putting them all in quotes, an artist, as an artist, you know, you want to expand and use all parts of yourself. And discover and find you parts of your stuff. That's like that's why we're doing what we're doing.

But, you know, not, people don't always let you do that. Sometimes you have to make the decision to show them that you can do that. And so that's the position I'm in right now. I'm showing them that I can do this thing. And it is a big swing. I mean, going out and, you know, playing human Capote every night and having to maintain this, my dear, for 90 minutes. My God, John. It's just, it's just.

And like, you know, like starting that and people being like, oh my God, he's good. do that for 90 minutes and like you're like yeah what and then you know having to maintain it it's really scary because you're like am i carroll channing right now actually or am i doing a good true micpodia and i feel like the line between like really hitting it and really fucking missing it yeah it's so razor thin and and and and you feel from the audience when you're like that was fucking terrible because you you just have bad nights yeah and when you feel it and then we're like oh we didn't see that i'm like you fucking if you didn't see that you don't know what the i don't think they do see it well i may look that's what everybody's

says, you know, but look, man, for me, I feel like I'm knocking on the door of fun sometimes. Yeah. You know? And there's like certain moments in it. I really relate to what you're saying. I'm not doing this. I think, look, I've always felt a little bit like an outsider. I've always felt like a little bit like I don't, you know, this thing that I've just,

that in some ways I think I've been trying to shed, but in some ways I've been trying to clutch on to is this sort of like this athlete, like boxer fighter guy who's like, trying to be an artist thing. And in a lot of ways, it's like, you know, that's just where I feel really comfortable, where it's like, okay, there's all the fucking real artist and then there's me, but I'll just go in with all my heart and I'll show them.

And like, I probably should have let that go a long fucking time ago. But it's also something that I think gives me a little bit of strength and a little bit of like, I feel comfortable there. And that's what this like whole process of like kind of, you know, being able to do this show. like getting this show, like how it's been, like I had to fight for it. And so there's part of that there, but I think now it's like taken on, it's taken on

this totally different thing. I've never been strategic kind of career wise in that way. I've always been like, how do I work with the best people and the best stuff and the things that make my heart sing. But then I, it's essential for me to also like find deeper meaning. And I think for me and this, you know, as like a dad of two boys and, and because people associate me with these things, to be able to be who I am

and really tell this kind of love story that looks different than what a lot of people associate, love stories with or love stories that I would be a part of, that's the gift and that's my sword in this piece. That's the thing that I'm fighting for. And, you know, I have to keep kind of like touching. I had like my baseball coach in college, He always said, like, you know, like being at the plate, right?

Like, like, baseball is such a fucking psychological thing. They always say, like, think good thoughts up there, kid. Think good thoughts, right? Like, being up there and being confident and, like, seeing the ball and, like, be like, I'm going to hit this motherfucker. What do you got? Like, being positive, like, the line between that and be like, fuck, I don't know what he's going to throw.

Fuck, I can't hit the ball. Fuck, I'm in my head. Right. Like, it's, like, so thin and it's so much, like, being on that stage. Like, the second, like, Jesse's in the audience. And it can take you out so easily. and what this baseball coach said, he said, when you start to spiral in that,

like take a step out, like step, literally step out of the batter's box and remind yourself, like, why are you doing it in the first place? Like, like, what made you love this game? Like, love of the fucking game. And I think that, like, you know, for me, this love story and this thing that I have with Esteban going in is like such an opportunity

in not like a preachy way and not like a political way and not like a spoon-fed way but to like really to really like make a comment on people who have like not been able to be their true selves and like love who they want to love

and like a lot of the feedback that has really mattered to me is folks that are close with me that have come to me and said like I was at the player my family member was at the player this and it really it's like I haven't been able to

kind of be who I truly am and love who I want to love. And it has been laid in with these pressures. And I think for that in this kind of day and age, with the sort of like brands of masculinity that have been out there, that I'm kind of like a big, like I've participated in. Like there's like nothing wrong with, like I believe part of masculinity for me is that being a protector, being a provider, being strong,

being able to be proficient with weapons, to be able to handle myself physical. Like that's like part of it for me But also being kind Being sensitive being open being curious Being being completely and utterly Fucking tolerant Hungry for debate

Hungry for folks that feel and think And love and worship differently than I do Like that's that's part of the deal dude That is essential part of the deal And so it's not fun But sometimes like when I'm down I try to like go back to that Go back to that

I think it's that And sorry this is so long But the other part of it Jesse honestly is that like I do feel and I think you I mean you know how much like trouble I used to get into as I mean you you saw me you know at the sort of end of like my really crazy times but you know this thing really did save my life like it did like it like no question and I'm really trying to pay homage to like that 18 year old kid who like found this thing who this like teacher kind of said hey you could do this and and like led me on this other path

that now like I have a wife, I have kids, I have a family, I can put food on the table doing this unbelievable gift that we have that we get paid to do what we love more than anything else and I'm really trying to pay homage to that kid so whenever I do get tired or whenever I do get frustrated or whenever these like landmines

that have been a fucking plenty on this show kind of blow up. I try to like take the high road put my head down, work through it, not let it completely cripple me or get me down or get me sad, and just keep driving. And the light that I'm driving for

is that higher thing, the thing that Esteban is, you know, that I'm doing with Esteban. So that was a little more from my conversation with John Bernthal. If you haven't heard our full conversation yet, make sure to check it out on Dinners on Me. This episode of Dinners On Me was recorded at Lume in Manhattan's West Village. Next week on Dinner's On Me,

you know her from Desperate Housewives, the Lincoln lawyer, and only murders in the building. It's Ava Longoria. We'll get into her sharp instincts both in front of and behind the camera, the journey from modeling to breakout roles to producer and director,

and how she's redefined what it means to be a powerhouse in Hollywood. Dinner's On Me is a production of Sony Music Entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler Ferguson. It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch. Our showrunner is Joanna Clay.

Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf. Sam Baer engineered this episode. Hans Dale She composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tamika Balanced Kalasni and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.