Dinner’s on Me with Jesse Tyler Ferguson - Vanessa Williams – on Proving Everyone Wrong, ‘Ugly Betty’ & Reinventing Herself

Episode Date: August 11, 2026

Singer, sitcom star and stage queen Vanessa Williams joins the show. Over tuna tostadas and butternut squash salad, Vanessa tells me about repeatedly having to prove herself across careers – from Miss America and the controversy that forced her resignation, to building success in music, Broadway and television – meanwhile, dealing withjudgement, racism and being underestimated as a performer. We also reminisce about her iconic role as Wilhelmina Slater in ‘Ugly Betty,’ her chemistry with costar Michael Urie, and why it stands out as one of her favorite jobs to date. Also, we get into her role as Miranda Priestly in The Devil Wears Prada musical, now on the West End. This episode was recorded at Flute at the Broadwick Soho in London. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

We've been doing a lot of traveling as a family lately. I just wrapped up my run as King Herod and Jesus Christ Superstar in London. And then afterwards, we escaped to the coast of Spain for a few days, which was great. Beckett and Sully have basically become these little beach kids. And, you know, I'm doing what I do best, which is finding the nearest umbrella and aggressively avoiding the sun. Now, as nice as it is to get away, I always have that moment where I think, well, you know, while we're away, making new memories, our house is just sitting there empty,

which got me thinking, if you're traveling this summer, you can make your space work for you and list it on Airbnb. Why not give someone else a cozy home away from home while they travel and make a little extra cash in the process? And if you've ever thought, okay, no, that sounds like way too much work,

Airbnb has made it a lot easier with our co-host network. It's a network of experienced local hosts who can help take care everything, from prepping your home to welcoming guests, so you don't have to do it all yourself. It's a pretty smart way to make the most of your home while you're off making memories somewhere else. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. Ever since Beckett and Sully came along, I swear, I swear I do more laundry every single day. I don't know where all these tiny clothes come from. I can't believe how many outfit changes they

have during a day, but somehow the hamper is always full. One thing that has made that routine a little easier is Blue Lands Laundry tablets. They're pre-measured so I don't have to deal with measuring detergent or lugging around one of those giant plastic jugs. I just toss a tablet into the machine and let it do the work. And I like knowing the formula is microplastic free made with plant and mineral-based cleaning ingredients and hyperalogenic, which is always a plus when you got kids. The best part is they actually work, whether it's food stains, playground dirt, or whatever mystery marks showed up on a t-shirt, our clothes come out clean. I've also become a big fan of their dishwasher tablets and toilet tablets. There's simple swaps that help cut down on plastic around the house. Blueland

is a certified B-Corp and Leaping Bunny Cruelty-Free Certified. Their formulas are EPA Safe for Choice certified, and many products have also earned cradle-to-cradle's gold material health certificate. If you're looking to make small changes in your routine, you can get 15% off your first order at blu land.com slash JTF. That's blueland.com slash JTF for 15% off your first order. Hey, it's Jesse. Today on the show, you know her as the iconic Willamina Slater on Ugly Betty. She's currently playing Miranda Priestley in the West End in the Devil Worst Prada musical. Listen, We're not going to say it the best for last today. We're going to give it to you right now.

It's Vanessa Williams. They perceive me as like, well, she's a recording artist. Can she really do Broadway? So it's always been like, okay, she's a Broadway person. Can she really do? So I've always had like, okay, just watch me. Just relax. This is Dinner's On Me, and I'm your host, Jesse Tyler Ferguson.

Today I'm at the Flute, a rooftop restaurant in the Broadwick Hotel in London's Soho neighborhood. It was actually named because of Fulieu. flute maker used to work on the street. It's a whimsical spot. Decor is very maximalist glam with mirrored ceilings, animal print fabric, and palm frond carpet. It has a stunning terrace with incredible views. Right now there's a Moroccan bent to their menu because the iconic Marrakesh Hotel El Fenn is taking over the flute. So I'm so excited to have this exclusive experience with Vanessa Williams, who is someone who only deserves the most VIP epicest. experiences. Okay, she should be walking in any minute. Let's get to the conversation.

Isn't this the cutest? I love this so much. It kind of reminds me of, well, like the Firmdale hotels a little bit. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like how I'm super eclectic, like the kit, Kemp design. It's so nice. You're here all the time? I'm here all the time. I live about, I don't know, six, six minute walk from here. So this is my Sunday spot. And they have outdoor dining, so it suns out, cocktails, good Sunday brunch. Any of my friends that are coming in to see the show, it's like, that's my Sunday hang come, and that's it. I love it.

Hi. Look at this. Welcome to the brother. Thank you. Thank you. Tiago. These are the manned news for you today. Thank you, Tiago.

Not a problem. I love that suit. My God. Thank you so much. It's so chic. It's very chic. So she. So she.

So we're having a residency with Elfen, our partner, hotel in Marrakesh, which is very sexy and very new as well. So welcome to the, to Dubai. Thank you. Thank you. I'd like to order any drinks for now. Oh, I'll have the Moroccan mint iced tea. Ice tea in England is such a rare thing. The fact that you would say that you have it is really impressive. Yes. It's really good.

Okay, I'll do that too. Yes, yes. Yes. All right. Thank you so much. Thank you. I didn't know this until I did some research, but save the best for last. was a very popular gravy commercial here. Yes, yes. I had no idea.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know what the name of the grave. Was it Bist or gravy, I think? I think so. I think it is, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a, it's like, it was it an instant gravy or something? Or it's like a jar? Yeah, and they just poured it on top of the meat, on top of your Sunday roast.

And that's how you save the best for less. That's the gravy's the last. I mean, do, like, people ever, like, referenced that when they're talking about? Probably a specific age. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know.

It's like squeeze the Charmin, that era, you know. But the real story behind Save the Best for Last is like, I was third dibs on that shit. So they gave it to Bet Midler who passed. They gave it to Streisand and she passed. And I was like third one up. And I was like, I love it. And it's, yeah. It's iconic.

Yeah. So thank you for. Oh, how interesting. Yeah. Third. Yeah, not even seconds. And how do you, like when something comes to you after they've offered it to other people, Do they tell you that?

No, no, no, no. How did you find out? I found out after we were a gigantic hit, and I became really good friends with the writers, and Phil Galston said, just want you to know, the other two have passed on it, and yeah, so you were, yeah, yeah, yeah, Phil Galston, yeah.

I mean, I feel like there's several songs that are, that have that history where they were written for a specific person, and like someone else got to claim it. Yeah, I was like, oh, this is lovely, and I had no idea it was going to be, the long-lasting hit that it was, but I knew that it was one of those earworms

that I couldn't get out of my head. And I thought, oh, yeah, I can do this. Yeah. So you never know. I wonder, oh, my God, that's so interesting that history that, like, I always think, like, if songs had ended up in someone else's hands, they might not have had that same impact, you know?

True. Yeah. Oh, that's so interesting. Keith Thomas was the producer who did it with me, and that was a huge hit with us. But then, after we became, you know, He was known for, he did also Colors the Wind and a lot of my big hits. And he had an assistant named Todd who worked in his studio assistant.

So I went to do the next album with Keith down in Franklin, Tennessee. And again, it was a cassette and like, here are the ones that Keith was written for you. And he left one of the songs off. And it was Baby Baby, Baby from that ancient. Amy Grant ended up doing. Oh, right. And he said, I just want to tell you that was supposed to be for you. But Todd forgot to put it on the tape and give it to you.

And we gave it to Amy. And I'm like, you mother fuck, Todd. Oh, wow. Have you ever sung it? No, no. You should. Put it in your show. Tell that story and put it in the show.

Baby, baby. Yeah, exactly. That's incredible. Yeah. I would love to hear that. Do you that story and then hear you sing it. Ooh, iced tea. Thank you.

Oh my God, there's so much ice in it, too. It looks beautiful. An embarrassment of riches. Very fresh. Yes. I love this. Thank you. Thank you so much.

Thank you so much. No problem. And we prepared also a selection of our beautiful menu of the most sold dishes. All right. They'll be bringing it over to the next to shortly. Are there any of the entire requirements? Not for me. Not for me.

Perfect. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Look at this. Another status. Ah, yes, tuna to start is amazing.

I've got here the sweet potato. Ah, thank you. And button and squash salad and the jabna cheese. Gorgeous. Gorgeous. Enjoy. Thank you, thank you. It's so beautiful, my God.

Thank you. I'm trying to remember where we met. Was it doing the Hollywood Bowl? Well, you did Betty. Right. That was 2009? Did you, oh, nine? Right, because I just finished doing the class

It was before Modern Family. It was right before Modern Family. Yeah. But we didn't have a scene together, did we? Did we meet on set? I think I was introduced to you on set, but so briefly. I just remember I had just done the show called The Class and that that had got canceled.

And, like, you know, it did fine while it was on, but it was never like something that people were throwing a ton of money on. Yeah. Then I went to go to Ugly Betty, which was like such a hit. and I remember coming up on set and you all had that day a fondue fountain like a chocolate fondue fountain. Like literally there was a table with like spewing chocolate

and like fruits and vegetables and like that's like what I was walking into. I was like oh this is what being on a hit show looks like there's literally a chocolate fountain. Well that was then though because when we first started so basically we were a Friday night show no one cared about us at all. We went to the the team.

PCA's the television critics, the panel that they have in Pasadena. And this is 2006, and we did our panel. And when we got down, the interviewers said to us, you know, this is the best thing that they have this season. And we were like, really? And they, because they love the pilot. The pilot was great. Yeah, the pilot was great. And so when we started, we were working at, I think we're not Radford.

We were at... You were right? I remember where you were, because that's where I shot. Raleigh. Brawley Studios. Right right across from Paramount. Exactly. I've got here the baked cinnamon beetroot salad.

Mm-hmm. And I've got the charred brocolini with the fine beans. Yes. There you go, enjoy. Good. Yeah. They did not provide breakfast for us. When we got nominated and won the Golden Globe, I paid for it like a waffle.

Like one of those pop-up waffle. Yeah, yeah. because we had zero, they still didn't care, and all of a sudden. Really? Yeah. So then when. Because you won the Golden Globe the first year. Yeah.

And America won, and then all of a sudden I'll save. But up until then, Golden Globe is January. We started shooting in July. So I think I was on season two. So at that point. Oh, in L.A. Or either that or like the very end of season one. Okay, yeah, yeah.

In L.A. Yeah. I was there in L.A. Before you moved to New York. Yeah. Yeah. And then we had the writer's strike. That was one of those shows that just obstacle after obstacle but our audience loved us, but they kept moving us.

And we finally, and it was the 2008 financial crisis, and, you know, we just kept chugging along, and then they finally just said, nope, which is unfortunate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And at that point was that sort of like, I mean, you were heartbroken.

What's that? You were heartbroken. How was it saying? Yeah. Because we tried and tried to cut, we tried to cut corners. people expected are, you know, the visual value of what we would produce on a weekly basis was extraordinary. Yeah. And it just got too expensive.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it was the best show I've ever done on television. It was the best experience. I remember just, it was such a happy set. Mm-hmm.

I just remember being, it was one of the shows that I was also a fan of before I got a to be on it. So I was watching it from the beginning and I was just like so enamored with that world. Oh, you know who was on my episode was Octavia Spencer? Oh! Pre-Oskar. And she was, yeah, and we were both like so she and I were both like kind of just like

fan-girling over like being there. And like watching America transform and see, you know, with the braces and all that stuff. I remember we're like, this is so cool. We're like, we're like, let's go look at the magazine state. We were just like running around the set. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was so fun and like she was just as excited as I was. Wow. Yeah, that's how I met her. Yeah, that's so funny. I mean, it was such a great experience in Judith Light. I got to do a scene with her and. And she's very

mother earth too. You would think, yeah, she's very, she knows every psychic on earth, every channeler. She's like, I know them. I know them. Exactly. I had some, I had a surgery done. I don't know, this is like about a year ago now, a hernia surgery. I had a high anal hernia. And so I was like, I'm going to get the surgery done. And she goes, tell me what room you're in, what day, what time, and I'm going to send Reiki to you. I was like, what is it? She's like, do you know what Reiki?

Isn't that when they just kind of like lay hands over? Like, you're going to send someone to do that? She's like, no, I'm just going to send that energy to you. I was like, okay. So, listen. You would never know. You would never know. But I told her what room I was in, what time.

And I healed it very well. So like, listen, she probably sent great Reiki to me. Yeah. She's amazing. Go like this. Other side now. Okay. No?

Yeah, so? Now it's gone. Okay. No, got it. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Vanessa takes us back to the unexpected path that led her to becoming Miss America, the pressure of being the first black woman to hold the title, and the incredible journey that followed.

Okay, be right back. One thing I can always count on with Beckett, Sully, if I make them a good sandwich, I know it's going to get eaten. And honestly, when you're packing lunches day after day, that is a win. You want something your kids are excited about, but you also want to feel good about what you're sending them off with. That's why I love Boar's Head. At the deli counter, our favorites are freshly sliced and made with the quality I can count on. Their maple honey ham and maple honey turkey are made with premium whole cuts and crafted with 100% maple syrup and grade A golden honey.

So you get great flavor along with quality protein to help fuel busy school days. Pair it with their American cheese made from a hand-selected blend of 100% all-natural cheddar. And you've got a lunch that's simple, delicious, and one they'll actually finish. For lunchtime inspiration, visit boarshead.com slash back to school. They've got lots of kid favorite ideas to make packing lunches a little easier. And for Boar's Head, head to your local deli counter. We've been doing a lot of traveling as a family lately. I just wrapped up my run as King Herod and Jesus Christ Superstar in London.

And then afterwards, we escaped to the coast of Spain for a few days, which was great. Beckett and Sully have basically become these little beach kids. And, you know, I'm doing what I do best, which is finding the nearest umbrella and aggressively avoiding the sun. Now, as nice as it is, is to get away. I always have that moment where I think, well, you know, while we're away, making new memories, our house is just sitting there empty, which got me thinking, if you're traveling this summer, you can make your space work for you and list it on Airbnb. Why not give someone else a cozy home away from home while they travel and make a little extra cash in the

process? And if you've ever thought, okay, no, that sounds like way too much work, Airbnb has made it a lot easier with our co-host network. It's a network of experienced local hosts who can help take care of everything, from prepping your home to welcoming guests, so you don't have to do it all yourself. It's a pretty smart way to make the most of your home while you're off making memories somewhere else. Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. Sometimes the hardest part of dinner isn't cooking, it's realizing that at 545 that you forgot to plan dinner at all, you know?

I spend a lot of time eating at incredible restaurants for the show, but at home, I want something that's easy, reliable, and actually tastes great. That's why I've been keeping my freezer stocked with Omaha Steaks. It's honestly like having a really good butcher on standby. Now, lately, we've been making the burgers, and they have been fantastic. They're juicy, flavorful, and tastes like something you'd order at a really good neighborhood restaurant. If you've never tried Omaha Steaks, the burger perfection flight, it's a great, great place to start. For just $79.99, you get 20 premium steak burgers made from five different cuts of steak, including filet mignon, New York strip, ribby, brisket, and sirloin. So you can actually

taste the differences between each one. Try the burger perfection flight at omaha steaks.com today. That's 20 premium steak burgers for just $79.99. Plus, get $35 off with the promo code Jesse. That's Omaha Steak.com promo code Jesse for $35 off at checkout. Terms apply. See site for details. And we're back with more dinners on me. Then after that,

I mean, how I feel like I really got to know you was when we did the Hollywood Bowl, we did a Sondheim concert together. And it was a kind of truncated experience. I think maybe we rehearsed seven days, for that Sondheim, which you had already done in New York. And I was just an addition, I guess they did sort of a truncated version of that show. And one of my favorite stories of you is when I had the cast over to my house.

Gorgeous house, yes. And I'm no longer there at that house. We're in a different house now. But I love that house in Los Phila's. And we had cocktails on our patio. And we were serving. aporal spritzes. Do you remember this story? And I, um, and you had never had an apparel spritz, I guess. And so I gave you an apparel spritz. Oh, this is delicious. So I might make another one. And so

you went inside and made another one. It came back out. You're like, it's not as good as the one that you made, but it's fine. And then you had another one after that. And like, we're all drinking. I was like, God, the apparel is really going fast. And you didn't realize that there was other ingredients involved in an apparel sprit other than apparel. Do you remember this? No. You were just pouring apparel and ice. And, and, and, and, you were just pouring apparel and ice. And I'm not, forgetting the champagne and then the soda water. Yeah, okay, exactly. And I was like, why is the apparel going so fast?

And the next day you're like, I have the weirdest hangover. I was like, because you were drinking straight apparel. That's right, that's right. Oh, my God. That was a gorgeous day. It was a great day. I've got the Bahana spice chicken here. Thank you.

How's everything so far? Delicious. Yeah. Yeah, it's so good. You know, I'm a big fan of your Broadway career. Yeah, because musical theater was always. that was your first love. That's what you kind of aspired to.

That's what you went to school for. And when you were growing up, did you do a lot of musical theater in, like, school? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Were your parents musical at all? Yeah, they're music teachers. Oh, I think I did know that.

Yes, yes, yes. So, you know, I grew up looking at when we went to Radio City every year for the Christmas show and the Easter show. So, you know, my mother would always plant these seasons. Well, you could do that and you can do that. you know so I knew it was my parents never said get a real job like you're wasting your time so that for me was fantastic as long as you got your education do what you want and that my plan was

syracuse well my plan was Carnegie Mellon which I got into but we couldn't afford it then I got into NYU and they're like the city's going to be always there no then Cal Arts and they're like it's too far Syracuse is like I mean what great options I know I was I was I was I mean I The school I went to it because it was the only one that accepted me. You had four, like, to choose from, basically. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's incredible. Yeah, yeah.

So you went to Syracuse. Went to Syracuse. In retrospect, it gave me the full-on college. I went to the football games on Saturday. I had my drama classes and all the stuff that was required, but I also had that campus life up on the hill, rah-rah. And it gave me, Aaron Sorkin was in my first, the first musical I did was a,

musical review of Jimmy Van Huisen, and Aaron Sorken was in that. He was a musical theater major at Syracuse. Yes. Musical theater major, Aaron Sorkin. That's so interesting. I had no idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then obviously transition.

Huge, like West Wing and two good men. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's got to be so wild seeing people like that that have just come up in the industry and have gone separate ways. You're like, I remember you in Little Abner. You know what I mean? I love that. That's so great. That's so great.

And so, I mean, when you started getting involved in, like, beauty contest, was that something that was always something you wanted to do? Or was it just kind of came out of nowhere? Was there a scout that found you? Well, it's the local Syracuse pageant had a board. One of their friends was George Mizzurlus was a, a classmate of mine, and he's like, you know, my friends wanted to know whether you wanted to go out for the Miss Grater Syracuse Patch. I was like, no, no.

So I kept getting asked time and time again. Then I auditioned for Syracuse Stage. They were doing a production of Serenow, and I auditioned for the Orange Girl, got that. So I'm like, great, equity points toward my card. And the show ended up not happening. So I had April free. and I called my mom, I go, this pageant's happening in April.

You know, do you think I should do it? She's like, is there scholarship money? I said, yeah. So I sang, being good isn't good enough from Hallelujah Baby. My friend played piano for me. So I won Miss Greater Syracuse and I won like a plaque

and a sash and a crown. And so then my next stop was July, the Miss New York State. And won that. And then I'm on my way to Atlantic City in September. And I'm supposed to come here for my junior year abroad. All my deposits were down and all that stuff. To come to London.

Yeah. And I ended up winning the whole thing. Oh, my God. What a detour. What a detour. What a crazy detour. And also, there'd never been a Blackness America. Well, that was the whole, I mean, that was the major story that came out.

Obviously, it was like, you know, this is the first Blackness America. So there was no pressure like, oh, I'm going to make it. I was like, we'll see, but I wasn't. But then when you did it. when it was kind of like a cultural moment. I mean, it was like this, I mean, I watched like your exit interview or whatever, and it was like, that's all she could talk about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, and it's like, you know, it's like, yeah, it's like, yeah. And I think the runner up was also black. She was from New Jersey. Her mom was black and dad was Italian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there were three other girls that were of color. So it was like the most, I think there was five of all together. Yeah.

So I guess the odds were pretty good. that somebody was going to place in the top five. Right. Yeah. Or the top, yeah. But also, 83, you would think, and again, I'm my junior year, about to start my junior in a New York school. I've been exposed to everything.

I was very liberal-minded because New York. And then, you know, talking to Dene Graham, who is Miss North Carolina, and she's like, well, yeah, they burned a cross on my front lawn because I'm the first black Miss North Carolina. and she's a beautiful ballerina and it's like, what? Like, oh yeah, you know. So there was that juxtaposition of...

But you're getting a real cross-section of the entire country at that moment. Yeah. And you would think that it would be progressive at that moment because my parents lived through the civil rights era in the 60s. I was born the year that, you know,

Kennedy was assassinated. So we thought, okay, we've grown, we've changed. And it's kind of back to like, nothing's really changed. Has it really changed? Did you feel backlash for your win? Oh, absolutely. There were death threats.

My parents had a, like a folder, like a box that they would put all. Because back then there was no email. So letters would be sent to my house, threatening to kill me. People would call my parents' number because it was listed in the phone book back in the day. Right. Yeah, because, you know, so people would call, you know, and make. So my parents had to deal with so much more than what. what I had to because I didn't know.

I had just had appearances every day, travel appearance, travel appearance. Plus my workload was double because not only was I doing the regular Miss America schedule, but, you know, NACP, Urban League, all of these black organizations that wanted to honor me and invite me to their events. So I was working hard. But yeah, I was, I look at my kids, and again, as a parent, you know, you look at the, them through the lens of like, oh my God, this is what I was like when I was 20. And I look at my kids at 20 and go, how did I, how did I handle this? How did I get through this? And with all that

extra pressure on top of it. It's one thing to be on that path and having all those accolades and, you know, being given titles like that, but then on top of that to have, you know, all that social impact as well. And then, you know, what is my, what is my opinion? How do I feel? Right. You know. Right. Because you're in a bubble when you're and, you know, college, you're in a bubble. Sure. And I know just from like, you know, even now, like, I think, you know, people try and, like, with those pageants, people try and stay neutral politically. But, you know, I assume people expect you to voice opinions. And it's like, you're so young.

Yeah. I mean, I mean, they were like, how do you feel about ERA? I said, yeah, women should be completely equal pay. Right. That was, you know, I was pro-choice. And that was like a big, you know, I said, people have the right to their own bodies. And yes. So there was, you know, so I ruffled feathers from the get-go.

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Now for a quick break, but don't go away. When we come back, Vanessa opens up about the controversy that forced her to resign her Miss America crown. We talk about stepping into the iconic role of Miranda Priestley and the Devil Wars Prada on the West End. And I share an embarrassing group text story that may or may not involve the See You Next Tuesday curse word. If you know, you know. Okay, be right back. Ever since Beckett and Sully came along, I swear, I swear I do more laundry every single day.

I don't know where all these tiny clothes come from. I can't believe how many outfit changes they have during a day, but somehow the hamper is always full. One thing that has made that routine a little easier is Blue Lands Laundry tablets. They're pre-measured so I don't have to deal with measuring detergent or lugging around one of those giant plastic jugs. I just toss a tablet into the machine and let it do the work. And I like knowing the formula is microplastic-free made with plant and mineral-based cleaning ingredients and hyperalogenic, which is always a plus when you got kids. The best part is they actually work.

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slash JTF for 15% off your first order. On days off from Jesus Car Superstar in London this past summer, we would head out to the English countryside for a little family reset. The boys were in heaven. They were running around, looking at farm animals, getting as muddy as possible. Justin was, you know, thriving, taking runs in the morning. And I finally had an excuse to sit quietly with my Kendall for a few minutes without feeling guilty. Now, trips like this always remind me that.

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Find a co-host at Airbnb.com slash host. So we just got back from about two months in London and Spain. Part of it was work, part of it was vacation, and we just got back to Los Angeles, and there were like 900 things to do at the house. There were repairs to be made. There were things to be ordered. There were groceries to be shopping.

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Taskers book up fast, especially for same-day tasks. So book Trusted HomeHelp today. That's $15 off your first task using promo code Jesse with the TaskRabbit app or at taskrabbit.com. And we're back with more dinners on me. I'm sure the thing that you get asked probably most about with anything is like, you know, the controversy of like being, to have your crown taken away.

I mean, is that what... The resigning, yeah. Which, you know, I feel like now, I think people who hear that story now will be like, I cannot believe that that happened. Yeah, to put it in context. Just plainly. Miss America was an ideal and it was the exact opposite of, it was of nude pictures and pristine image.

That's why it was such a big, big deal. And also the betrayal and like, you know, selling the pictures behind my back without a release, timing it so, you know, this was all going on when I became famous. Right, right. So that dastardly kind of Guccioni, him, you know, trying to help orchestrate the drama of it all. Right. It obviously worked for him because it was the penultimate opportunity to bring down, I don't want to say an icon, but bring down. Someone who's been put on a pedestal, surely, absolutely.

Yeah, yeah. And also sell, it's always money. Yeah. It always comes out to money. How can I make the biggest bang? And the money on the Miss America side was sponsors. Right. And sponsorship and image and all that stuff.

So American Greetings, Clarel, Gillette, you know, all those corporate dolls that they rely on, you know, what do we do? So it's, so it always comes down to money. And, of course, Pantas made a slew of money on all of it. Right. And I was caught in the middle saying, okay, I did these as a teenager. No one's supposed to see them.

There is no signed release. They shouldn't have been seen by anybody anyway. But the betrayal didn't mean a thing because that was the news. Right. And that again, that news generates money. Right. So, and again, there was only, what, three, five stations on TV? Yeah.

You know, so. The news cycle was very different. tight. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, when you, that happened to you when you were so young as well. 21. So young.

I mean, barely, barely an adult. Yeah. Did it feel in the moment, can you even remember if it felt like, did it feel like you were, like your career, was it going to suffer from that? I didn't have a career. So that, so. Well, then did you feel like it was like over before it even began or? It gave me the, I'm going to prove it. They have no idea who I am.

Yeah. And being put in a bottle, in a category, a box of like a beauty queen, I was already fighting against that while I was Miss America because people assume that you're not smart. Being from New York and having all these Southern girls that have their lives were to be Miss America. They've done little Miss this, that, whatever. So the fact that I'm an outsider who. happenstance got involved. You had that judgment of who is this outsider coming into our

system. So there were a lot of hurdles that I had to start with in the very beginning. And in my book that I did with my mom, you have no idea, we were interviewing one of my, I had two chaperones. And when Midge, who was one of my chaperones, chaperones. She was in the wings, and after I got crowned, and she's dead now, Marianne Mowgli,

who was Miss America, but she was from Alabama. She leaned over to Mitch and said, you ready to go to Harlem yet? And that was her first, like, oh, you ready to, like, are you ready to slummit with somebody who's obviously from Harlem? I mean, it was that twist of, this is who you got. Are you ready to do it that way? And of course I didn't find out about any of this until years later. Right. But that perspective, that's a whole other layer of racism.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, oh, you're getting rid of slum it now with a black Miss America. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So intense. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. But what, I mean, what's really striking is how, I mean, it was that moment of controversy and probably at the time pain was like the beginning of what became like such an incredible career. Like that was to launch from that place to like your recording career and film and like, you know, this amazing crew on Broadway. And like there was a cultural moment around you as well that like they couldn't take away even if like they said we're going to take this. this physical thing off your head. I only had six weeks to go, so it wasn't like I, you know, it happened at end of July.

I had my August, two weeks in August off, and I was going to give it up in September. So I had done everything. Right. And, but every, every genre that I have gone into has been like, prove yourself, you're an outsider. Right. So when I went into recording, it's like, ah, one hit wonder, guarantee. And then all of a sudden it started to flourish. and like, oh, okay.

But then it's like, oh, she's musical theater. She's not going to be able to be a pop, you know, a pop star or have a pop career. Then you go from that to Broadway. And when I, when I, so Gar Stubinsky had me come in for, and I had done other auditions, again, scooting back to being judged. My first real Broadway audition was Tommy Toon wanted me to come in and replace Twiggy.

Oh, cool. What was that my one and only? My one and only. I'm such a theater nerd. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I learned the tap, learned all the Gershwin. Mike Nichols was the director. Oh, my gosh, I forgot about that.

Yeah, met with Mike, came in, did the audition, and he told me the story back in 2008 when we were at the opening of West Side Story. And he said, did I ever tell you that sort of? I finished my audition. I walked back and say hi to Mike. And he goes to Lee Gershwin, who's Ira Gershwin's widow and owner of the whole of estate. Wasn't she terrific?

He goes backstage, goes downstairs, the phone rings, and it's her saying, Oh, for my dead body, will that whore be in my shop? So he told me that in 2008. Wow. I knew that I didn't get it. I had no idea the severity of the judgment. Wow. So that was back in 1985.

So I had no idea how bad the judgment was and how big the road loss were. So cut to 10 years later when I'm in 94 and Garth brings me in. And at this point I'm a recording artist. Say the best for last. It's been a few chit, blah, blah, blah. I come in so they only know me as a recording artist. I come in to sing. I sang, I didn't sing Bill.

I sang. Is this for showboat? Just for showboat. and that's how he brought me in, like, you might be able to do showboat on Broadway because we're having some issues or whatever. And then it was like, do you want to do Kiss of the Spider-Women? So I hadn't seen the show yet,

and I go in and see it, and I knew I could do it. But they perceived me as like, well, she's a recording artist. Can she really do Broadway? So it's always been like, okay, she's a Broadway person. Can she really do? So I've always had like, okay, just watch me. Just relax. Does it ever get exhausting to have to say that?

Or do you feel like it's fun to show people that you can do it? I always think it's fun. I always think it's fun. Yeah. How's everything? This is delicious. This is so good. Yeah, this is incredible.

Sure, it hasn't been lost in yet. I'm sure so many people have made this comparison. But, you know, doing Willamina and Ugly and Ugly Buddy and then Miranda Priestley and Devils Prada is kind of of the same prototype. There's similarity. and these two women kind of... The Davis Christmas Carol.

Exactly. Yes. Yes. But, you know, having... Historyonic. Exactly. Having seen, you know,

DeVor's Prada, you know, there's such a difference that you are bringing to Miranda Priestley. Was there something that you sort of took

from Willamina that you brought into DeVar's Prada? Or was it... Um, well, I think I certainly played to the sass of it all,

especially when, like, we just had pride. I mean, of course, I'm going to camp it up up as much as I can. So sometimes the strut, sometimes,

because again, Miranda Priestley is a character, so we're not literally doing a imitation of anyone we know, dot, dot, dot. Right, right, right. So you, but Willamina was so, so extra and so physically, like,

I found her like a fox, like a panther, like a, like, you know. You never knew how she was going to show up and how she would morph and what she would be trying to do to get her way. Whereas Miranda owns the power. Right. It's there. It's in her body. It's in her.

She's not conniving in the way of that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, Willamina was known for her incredible reads as well.

You know, it's like. Sue Sylvester. Yeah. Megan Mellelli and Welland Grace and like Willamina. Like great reads. I mean, the writing on Ugly Betty was just so top-notch. And you got,

we got some of you, Abraham went to go to you. Yeah. Abraham Hickham Hickham off of you had. Yes. In fact, we didn't have him for our first season because he stuck with Ugly Betty. Yeah.

Yeah. And when Ugly Betty finally finished, we got to have him on our show. Yeah. Such a great rider. Great riders. I love him so much. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And you're, you know, obviously you and Michael Uri had such incredible chemistry too. Love, love, love him and watched him progress and went to all his tiny little shows in between the seasons and stuff.

Like I'm doing this here in these, you know, the Barbera Sice and play. Yeah, right, yeah, yeah. Yeah, but just such an extraordinary talent, amazing human being. Love his family. He adores you so much. I mean, even back then, like, he was,

you know, he had just graduated from Juilliard and I got to know him through a mutual friend. And he was always like, Vanessa Williams, I can't not believe that I, the luck I have to work with her. And then, you know, the fact that he really owes a lot of his career to you because I think you really fought for him. Yes. To stick around. Yeah. And we did the pilot.

And the whole thing for Willamino, she was going to fire every episode she'd have a new episode. New assistant, yeah. And we were doing the Botox scene. And this is when Willamina's in her chaise in her office. and Mark's got a syringe. And, you know, so he's giving her Botox. And then he's like, can we leave a little bit in the syringe? And can I pretend that I do one?

And I don't have enough. So I've got one eyebrow up. He's like, that is brilliant. Let's shoot that. And it was always like, let's do this. And we were always, like, doing these bits together. Like, I love it. I'll do this.

And that chemistry, but also knowing that his brain was like, the comedy, let's make it bigger. Yeah. So it was really kind of a team effort. and I just saw his brilliance. I'm like, you cannot give me another assistant on the next episode. We have to have this. Yeah.

Yeah. And then, of course, I can't. I'm going to tell the story. I feel like I've talked about this with Leah. But it's just so good to me. I love it so much. So, I mean, one of my favorite things I've ever seen to do is POTUS.

Yes. With this incredible cast. You played the First Lady of the United States. Which was funny back in the day. Which was funny back in the day. It was. I know it hits a little too close to home today. Exactly.

Because it was basically like a Trump figure that was in the office. They had this incredible cast, Leah Delaria, Rachel Dress, Julie White, Susan Nakamura, Julianne Huff. I'm probably forgetting. Lily Cooper. Yeah. Incredible cast. First of all, I want to ask if any of your inversion of the First Lady was

inspired by anyone. No, but I did do a, I did Hillary's podcast before I did the show. So I was asking for tips while.

Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. But she's more than just a first lady, obviously. Right, of course, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's also a neighbor of mine, so she was amazing. Right, right, right, right, right. So when we were working together at the Hollywood Bowl, we exchanged numbers. And I

I would text you occasionally, but I never would get a response, but it didn't bother me. I will say that right now. I was never, like, waiting for Vanessa to text me back, but I was always like, I would text you again, I'd be like, oh, the last text I sent to hers right there. She never responded. Oh, I never responded. Oh, she's busy.

This happened for like a few years. So I would text, text you just little things, maybe some screenshots. I don't know, maybe photo my kids, I don't know. Then we're doing POTUS and we're hanging out. I'm seeing you more often because I'm right across the street doing, take me out across the street. and for your last show I send a group text to

basically I know the entire cast of POTUS at this point so I send a group text to you all the first line of your play was the C-word, see you next Tuesday Yes It spoke by Julie White So I said congratulations Have a great last show

C-word And the next thing I see I was like comments like Ha ha ha ha that's so funny Then I see Vanessa Williams has left the conversation So I go, oh my God, I think I've offended Vanessa.

So I privately text you and I say, I'm so sorry, I was quoting the play. I'm so sorry if I offended you. This person responds back. This is not Vanessa Williams. Please stop texting me. Years I've been texting this person. So I have, I contact Leah, Delaria.

I said, Leah, please show this exchange to Vanessa. So she goes into your dressing room, shows you the six-jave. You're laughing so hard. You're like, please give Jessie my right number. I think I just copied it down wrong or something. No, no, no. I had two different phones. Oh, you had two different phones?

Yes, yes, yes. Well, the number I had, that was no longer your number was now someone else's number. Yes, yes, yes. That was hilarious. Mortified. Yes. But I'm glad we cleared that up. Yes, yes, yes.

And you can call me the C word any time you like. Not offended. I promise I was only quoting the play. But I was also like, I don't think that it surprises me that she would be offended. But also that there should be so, like, aggressive about, like, I'm going to leave this conversation. You know? Exactly.

Oh, God, I love that story so much. I've gotten a lot of mileage out of the story. I'm so happy you did this. Well, thank you so much. This was delicious. I love you. I love you, too. Thanks for doing this.

Thanks for bringing me here. And I will pay. Dinner's on me. Delish. Delish. Okay. This episode of Dinners on Me was recorded at Flute on the rooftop of the Broadbrook Hotel in Soho, London. Next week, you know her as Pam from the office, co-hosts of the hit podcast Office Ladies,

and she's starring in the indie comedy Nimrods. It's Jenna Fisher. We talk about the years of rejection before landing the iconic role of Pam Beasley and why the office continues to resonate with fans around the world, plus collaborating with her husband in this latest Green Day-inspired film. And if you don't want to wait until next week to listen, you can download that episode right now by subscribing to Dinners On Me Plus. As a subscriber,

not only do you get access to new episodes one week early, you'll also be able to listen completely ad free. Just click Try Free at the top of the Dinners On Me show page on Apple Podcasts to start your free trial today. Dinner's On Me is a production of Sony music entertainment and a kid named Beckett Productions. It's hosted by me, Jesse Tyler, It's executive produced by me and Jonathan Hirsch.

Our showrunner is Joanna Clay. Our associate producer is Alyssa Midcalf. Sam Bear engineered this episode. Hans Dale She composed our theme music. Our head of production is Sammy Allison. Special thanks to Tamika Balance Kalasni and Justin Makita. I'm Jesse Tyler Ferguson. Join me next week.

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