DISGRACELAND - Bonus Episode: Forces of Nature, Jealousy, and Grief Will Out Itself

Episode Date: May 16, 2024

This week in the After Party, Jake talks the impact of departing icons, jealous exes, this week's DISGRACELAND episode on Marilyn Monroe, and of course your emails, texts, DMs, and voicemails. Which celebrity death affected you the most? Is Marilyn Monroe the biggest icon in entertainment history? Has anyone else captured the public’s imagination for such a long period of time? Does the mystery around her death contribute to our fascination? Get in touch at 617-906-6638, [e-mail], or on socials @disgracelandpod, and come join the After Party.To hear an extended version of the After Party with a story about two icons and their bitter, toxic jealousy, and more from the DISGRACELAND community, become a Disgraceland All Access member at disgracelandpod.com/membership.Visit Tecovas in store or go to tecovas.com and find your new favorite pair of boots today! To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is exactly right. Double Elvis. Hey, Discos, you can listen to an extended version of this after-party episode by becoming a member of Disgraceland All Access. Just go to disgracelandpod.com slash membership for more details and to sign up. Hey, guys, welcome to Disgraceland, which is brought to you by Double Elvis. This week, we have an episode on Marilyn Monroe in the Disgraceland feed, and for our All-access members and our Patreon,

and Apple subscription feeds. Get ready for a brand new episode from Sound Gardens, Chris Cornell, that's coming next week. So be sure to make sure that you're all signed up for our all-access content either on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon to hear that, along with other exclusive episodes

and exclusive content that we have going on over there. Also, over in the feed for The Singers Talk, that's the new show from my company, Double Elvis, in partnership with volume.com, in which hosts Jason Thomas Gordon talks with some of the most iconic singers about their voices. We've got a brand new episode this week with Mr.

Simon Lebon of Duran Duran. I can't believe I just said that. Third grade me is like, wait, what? Who? Simon Who? The Duran Duran guy? My name is Rio. Hungry like the wolf?

Yes, that guy. Go check that out. Hey, Discos. Need a little more disgrace land in your life? Just a touch to get you through? Yeah, me too. This is the podcast that comes after the podcast. Welcome to Disgraceland, the after party.

Welcome to the Disgraceland bonus episode. A little thing we like to call the after party. This is the show after the show, the party after the party, the bridge to get you from one full episode of disgrace land to the other, the backyard to dig into the dirt. On this episode, we are talking about Marilyn Monroe, the sources that we used for our Marilyn Monroe episode, which helped us uncover a wild story involving none other than Frank Sinatra,

and Joe D, that's Joe DiMaggio. That story did not make the final. cut of our full episode. And of course, we're also talking to you via voicemail and text. And as always, we have a whole lot of rosy. All right, discos, let's get into it. All right, I'm a Prince fan, but I never considered myself like a super fan or anything like that. I didn't have posters of prints up on my wall growing up like I did of Madonna in my dorm room, but that's another story. You know, I wasn't particularly interested in Purple Rain. I mean, I saw it.

I don't even know that I had an opinion about it, really, when I was a kid. You know, I didn't own all of Prince's records. You know, even as a young kid, it was in a punk rock and hardcore. I think it was kind of subversive, at least in my little, you know, niche scene to be into Prince. Not that I didn't like Prince. I did, like, I liked him. But I wasn't, my point is I wasn't obsessed. I didn't own all of his records.

I didn't get particularly excited when a Prince video came on MTV because back then Prince was everywhere. It wasn't a rare occasion to see a Prince video or to hear a Prince song on the radio. He was Prince. He was like water, essential and everywhere, necessary, sure, but he kind of took him for granted. Then, when he died on April 21, 2016,

I felt fucked up over his death. rocked is too strong of a word i wrote down rocked in the notes i was taken to sort of sketch out what i was going to say here uh i wasn't rocked by it but it was a strange feeling i was definitely affected by it because like i said i it was strange because i wasn't a mega prince fan or anything like that i remember exactly where i was uh which is also saying something you know you tend to say like yo people remember where they were when john f kennedy died or people remember when they were where they were when nine eleven happened i remember where i was when prince died which is kind of bizarre. I was on a treadmill at a downtown Boston Equinox, and I was, they had CNN

up there on the screen, and I was watching it, and I can't remember if it was like came over on the crawl or a talking head came on and told us about it, but pretty soon after that news, I remember texting with my wife and my mother-in-law about it. We were all sad, and then still on the treadmill. I put prints on Spotify, and I actually cried. Okay, I'm not saying that to make myself seem more relatable or anything like that. I'm not a crier. Sure, I'm probably more sentimental than I like to admit, but I'm not the type of guy who breaks down easily. Sappy commercials on television, Father's Day cards, rom-coms on planes with weird air pressure.

I hold together pretty good. So why the hell was I crying because some pop star I didn't know kicked off? And to be honest, I was barely crying. I mean, I'd probably shed a tear to when Doves cry on Spotify or something when I was sweating it up on the treadmill, but still, it was enough to notice, which is my point. When Marilyn Monroe died on August 4, 1962, everybody noticed, and no doubt many cried. Those who knew her, her exes, Joe DiMaggio, and Arthur Miller for sure, her friends, Peter Lofford, Dean Martin, perhaps even the president at the time, John F. Kennedy and his New Jersey pimp Frank Sinatra. but make no mistake, America cried as well when Marilyn Monroe died. Marilyn Monroe's death inspired not only the expected reaction from fans,

everything from earnest tributes to the macabre celebrity death gockers, but it inspired something else too, some strange mix of endless grief and tribute. Marilyn Monroe's death inspired everyone from the grieving public at large to Andy Warhol, to Truman Capote, to Elton John, to Madonna, to Glenn Danzig, the countless culture vultures and students, documentaries, and global celebrants of pop culture history, Marilyn Monroe is without a doubt bigger after death than she was during life. And I think it's because the impact she made when she was alive was so huge, so significant,

that we refuse to let her die. From Andy Warhol's portrait to Arthur Miller's essays, to Joe DiMaggio's public tears, to Madonna's material girl, to Glenn Danzig's demanding question, to Elton John's tribute, to modern-day biopics on Netflix, Marilyn Monroe is here to stay. We refuse to let her go. And again, it's because of what she did when she was here, the films she made, the image that she singed into our consciousness, the path she blazed, and make no bones about it, she was a feminist trailblazer before the definition even existed.

Marilyn Monroe's life, everything about it, especially her death. As extraordinary as it was, we see a part of us in it, or we project some part of us onto it, onto her. I can't put my finger on it, other than to say that we refuse to let her die. And I get into what made Marilyn so extraordinary in this week. episode that we did on Marilyn Monroe. And in part two that's coming next week, I get fully into her death and the conspiracy theories surrounding her cause of death. But back to Prince. Prince's death affected me, not because of Prince, but because I was still grieving the death

of my sister from a few years earlier. I was projecting my loss onto the loss of a figure that I didn't know because suddenly that was an option, an emotional convenience at my subconscious took advantage of. Grief will out itself one way or another. There's no burying it. But I wonder, as a culture, what did we project onto Marilyn Monroe after she died? And what do we collectively continue to project onto her? And why do we refuse to let her die? They say that you die twice, once when you actually kick off when your death happens. And again, when the last person on earth who remembers you dies. And then you remember. memory is completely gone. And by that measure, Marilyn Monroe will live forever. Immortal.

Which celebrity passings, though? Which ones hit you the hardest? And why? Can you put your finger on it? I mean, you don't have to tell me why. You don't have to overshare. But I'm interested. I'm interested to know if you can connect the psychological dots between why, I don't know, Tom Petty or David Bowie or somebody you've never met in your life, why their death has affected you. so much. Who was it? Was it Marilyn Monroe? Was it Prince? Was it Tom Petty? Was it Elvis Presley? Steve Albini, Kirkcobie, and Roger Corbin? Let me know. 617-906-66-36-3-8 to let me know via voicemail and text. I want to know which celebrity deaths affected you the most. And if you feel like sharing, go ahead and tell me why. I'll be back in a flash. All right, sources, sources,

you guys want to know about the sources because you're your massive readers, your massive consumers of culture just as I am, and you may perhaps want to go a little deeper than we did on your own time in learning about these episodes subjects. So here we go. Let's talk for a minute about the sources that we use for this week's episode on Marilyn Monroe. Now, there are a lot, as you can imagine, a ton of books out there on Marilyn Monroe. But I read two of them for my research, two biographies, that is. The first is Marilyn Monroe, the biography by Donald Spotto, which is just fucking great. Just an incredible biography. It was somewhat controversial, and it was one of these things where I can't remember when the book was published, but there was enough time between

when it was published and when I read it, that when I was figuring out if I was going to use this book as a bit of research, I went and I looked at what some of the more quote-unquote controversial elements of the book were. And to be honest, I think they had to do with her death. I can't remember right off the top of my head. And then I did a little research on my own to see, you know, were they actually controversial? Were these really sort of like, you know, misinformation or whatever your zeitgeisty term is for inconvenient truths? I went and I looked it up and a lot of it was just bullshit. And it was clear to me that what he was, what the author was being called out for was disingenuous and just kind of click baity. And he,

and I figured this was a book that many people had gotten behind, and it was one that was worth reading, and boy, oh, boy, was I right. The second was Marilyn Monroe, a biography by Barbara Lemming. That was another one that helped. You know, I like, we've mentioned this before. I like getting a couple different perspectives on the subject, not just reading one biography.

Then we're just kind of, we're just boxing ourselves into someone else's point of view. And when you want to paint a full picture and you want to create your old editorial point of view, you need multiple sources. So those are the two on Maryland, the two sort of conventional biographies that I read. The other thing that, the other book that I read was more of a quote-unquote conversational portrait. It's a chapter in Truman Capote's book, Music for Chameleons, that's taken from a conversation that Truman had with his friend Marilyn Monroe, which was super helpful to help us build the character of Maryland, to get Truman Capote a friend of hers point of view. He nails Marilyn's voice. He nails her phrasing. And like,

unlike any other writer that I've ever come across or any other sort of, you know, semi-fictional depiction of Marilyn Monroe. And I just love, as you guys know, I love Truman Capote's writing. So music for chameleons, it's a great book. Go find that. It's gold. And it was certainly gold and we were trying to get the right perspective on Marilyn Monroe in order to cover her correctly in these full episodes that we're releasing. Okay, but back to the biographies that really help illustrate what a force of nature Marilyn Monroe was, how fiercely serious she was about her career. And that really struck me. It really struck me because going into this subject, not knowing a lot about it, just superficially we have.

I would think, well, I had anyways. I don't want to speak for you guys. I had this image of Marilyn Monroe as not being a particularly serious artist. But she was. She became a movie star largely to escape her impoverished and violent world, her violent upbringing, I should say, that she grew up in. And yes, she was often an emotional mess. She was often depressed.

She was often fucked up on drugs. But this was a time when a person, in Marilyn Monroe's situation, somebody who was breaking the mold, somebody who had become such a mega star off the heels of a really fucked up childhood without hardly any family support or any emotional support, Marilyn Monroe did not have the tools to deal with everything that was going on in both her career and in her life. If she were an artist today, it would be an entirely different story. This was not an arrow when things like anxiety and depression were openly discussed and managed. You had to manage that shit on your own. And yeah, self-medication was

part of it. And I completely sympathize and empathize with Marilyn Monroe. Nobody was in the position that she was in. To judge her for her drug use, to judge her for how she hands. And handled the men in her life, to judge her for how she let the men in her life handle her, is entirely fucked up from the position that we now sit in, or as men that we could have sat in when she was alive. Like I said, a completely unique experience. You know, Marilyn Monroe was a smart, savvy, incredibly savvy, not just artist, but just human.

And, you know, that whole, like, you know, gentlemen prefer blondes and that happy birthday, Mr. President, all that. That was a parody of herself, a parody of the image that she created, the image that she created to attain success, an image that, as you know, if you've listened to the episode, Studio Heads of 20th Century Fox, thought was going to be ruined forever when nude photos from her, from her early modeling career were leaked, just as she started to become famous in Hollywood. Now, the executives, the suits, the studio heads, they wanted her to deny that that was actually her in the photographs. She realized how stupid that would be, given that there were actual pictures of her in the photographs. The photographs were of her. That's what I'm trying to say. You can't deny photographs, okay? So she didn't.

She copped to it. She leaned into it. She refused to be shamed by the thing, and she used it to her advantage. She used it to flex her power. She got more powerful after this happened. It was almost like a, you know, it wasn't as contrived as the Kim Kardashian sex tape, but it was one of those things where it just enhanced the whole aura and myth that was being built of Marilyn Monroe at the time. And it made her one of the biggest, if not the biggest icons, living icons in the history of entertainment.

She became huge, a huge phenomenon. So, you know, I asked this question earlier this week over on Instagram, but what do you think? Is Marilyn Monroe the biggest icon in the history of entertainment? Now, that sounds like a massive question to ask, but it doesn't scare me because who else are we talking about? People are going to say James Dean, but I don't think James Dean even comes close. Yeah, maybe his image, maybe it's as iconic, but that's just the image, the last, effect as an artist. I don't know, maybe James Dean does on actors,

but it doesn't seem to be as widespread, right? I think if you walk just to random people on the street in this country or another country and held up a picture of Marilyn Monroe and a picture of James Dean, I think more people would be able to recognize who Marilyn Monroe was. But I don't know, Elvis Presley, Michael Jackson,

I don't think Brando comes close. I don't think Liz Taylor comes close. Maybe Michael Jordan. Maybe Michael Jordan. who's the biggest icon you can think of in the history of entertainment, and we can throw sports figures in here as well? Has anyone else captured the public's imagination for such a long period of time like Marilyn Monroe has? Does the mystery around Marilyn Monroe's death contribute to our fascination? These are all questions that this fascinating subject prompts for us. Let me know your

thoughts, 617-9066638. And speaking of Marilyn Monroe's death, we're going to get into more detail on that with part two of the episode that is coming up next week. It'll be the next thing that hits your feed after the Archive Rewind episode that's coming tomorrow. Okay? So, 617-906-66-6638. That's how you get in touch with me. Text, voicemail. Got two questions we're asking this week.

Number one, which celebrity death hit you the hardest? Number two, who is the biggest icon in the history of entertainment? Is it Marilyn Monroe? You can call me 617-90666-6-6-6-3-8. Leave me a voicemail. Send me a text, and we will answer those questions next week in the after-party bonus episode. But right now, we're going to dive into some answers from you guys on last week's questions. Let's check out this voicemail here from the 410.

This is in response to the William S. Burrows episode that we released last week. Hey, Jake. This is AD from the 410. Calling to let you know about two run-ins I had with William S. Burroughs and Lawrence Campbell. in 186 or 87. The first was at a small theater when Burroughs entered inexplicably with an entourage of small town, farm, grandpa, and grandma types, and sat in the reserve bro right in front of me. My friends and I later had the chance to chat with him at the after party.

The next time was about two weeks later when he was in line ahead of me, buying cigarettes. He got multiple packs of Jiton and played. years Navy cuts and seemed to fit they ran out of three castles. And thanks for the great show. I'm a long-time listener. Talk you later. Bye. 410.

I appreciate it. Thank you for the call. I love that you went to an after party with William S. Burroughs. This one from the 316, hitting us up in regards to our serial killer conversation from the last couple weeks. Hey, Jake. This is Jason from Kansas, and you were talking about who you think of the, serial killer.

He has a beautiful, beautiful and creepy. Leonard Cohen as a serial killer, never thought of that one. But that's what happens when we do two calls from Kansas in one after party. This one from the 904. Hey, Jake, I don't know if we're past this conversation or not, but I know you were talking about greatest folk artist. and definitely among one of the greatest, in my opinion, Pete Seeger. Pete Seeger is one of those artists who, I think, had he died earlier and didn't live the long, full life that he lived, I think he'd be more, well, I guess, iconic.

That seems to be the word of the episode. But he lived the long, full life, and he obviously touched a lot of people. I actually think there's a Pete Seeger episode there. I think telling the story of Newport Folk, which you're about to hear from the perspective of Bob Dylan and the Bob Dylan episode that we have coming up. But I think telling it from the perspective of Pete Seeger would be very, very interesting. So maybe we'll get into that at some point. But for right now, let's get into some texts. And this one from the 970, regards to the serial killer conversation.

You guys won't let this one die, this question die, which was which artist out there do you think? Could, which artist out there gives you serial killer vibes? Who is it? Who amongst them? Which musician? And this 970 writes in, has anyone looked into Burt Baccarac? Very smooth, handsome, and a little creepy? Also collaborated with Elvis Costello.

Perhaps not their only collaboration. Does collaborating with Elvis Costello make you a serial killer? I don't think so. I don't think Burt Baccarac was a serial killer. I think Burt Baccarac was pretty on the level. I mentioned in last week's after party that I thought William S. Burroughs was overrated as a writer. The 847 writes in, overrated, overrated without a doubt,

it's Kurt Cobain. He was a fraud and left this earth before it was discovered what a talentless whiny D-bag he was. Whoa! 847 were all entitled to our opinions unless they're completely fucking wrong like yours is. I'm joking. You know, not...

Yeah, whatever. You can think what you want about Kurt Cobain. I disagree. Talentless? Come on, man. Come on. 612 writes in, hey, your content is incredible.

Thanks for all your effort. Just want you to know what's appreciated. Well, thank you, 612. And I want you to know that we have a whole crew over here who help out. Engineers, writers,

not just me in the microphone. So lots of folks that double all of us, and they're going to be psyched to hear that you appreciate what they do. 617-906-66-38. Hit me up. I want to hear

which celebrity's death impacted you the most. I want to hear your opinion on if Marilyn Monroe is the greatest icon of all time. 617-906-66-6638 voicemail and text back in a flash. All right, we are back, but if you want to be really back, like so, so, so back, then you've got to become a member of Disgraceland All-Axas. That is where our All-Axas discos are right now, okay? They're getting an extra pour, if you will. They're getting a little sidecar to their martini that they ordered.

They saddled up to the... the bar just like you, but they happen to know the bartender. They happen to perhaps give that bartender a little bit extra of a tip when they got their last drink. And now they've got their cocktail sitting there in front of them. But then the bartender comes back and he slides up just a little sidecar. It's a little glass, or perhaps it's in one of those tiny little tumblers. and in it is the remnants, the extra, the good stuff from the cocktail mix that ended up in his martini glass. But now there's that little sidecar, that little bit of extra that just makes the whole thing just that much more worth it. The bartender gives him a wink, walks away, there you go, okay?

That's what disgrace land All Access is. That's our sidecar. That is where our All Access discos are right now getting, like I said, the extra poor. over in the after party some bonus content more content more on maryland row more on whoever we're discussing this week okay in particular this week over in the all access part of the after party we are discussing a story involving maryland monroe frank sinatra and joe demaggio and a private investigator all access is also where you're going to find one exclusive fully scripted episode of disgrace land each month like next week's brand new exclusive episode on chris korenell from

Garden from Audio Slave, okay? Plus, wait, Mother Lovebone, too. Plus other episodes, just waiting for you. Sorry, did I say Mother Lovebone? I meant Temple of the Dog. You know what I meant. Plus other episodes just waiting for you on Hunterst. Thompson, Baskiaat and Lane Staley. And did I mention that it's ad-free? It's ad-free. You're getting that little sidecar, right? You're getting the sidecar, and then you're getting a full, a whole other cocktail later that you weren't even planning on. That one's coming to you. And then by the way, they're both ad-free. free. Okay? All right. The entire Disgraceland catalog, that is, all 175 episodes and counting. So how do you get all this awesomeness? Well, you just go to disgracelampod.com slash membership

to sign up. It's just five bucks a month. Even less if you sign up for an annual membership, you can sign up right now via Apple Podcast or Patreon. The only difference being that if you sign up for Patreon, you're also going to get immediate access to an always-on chat featuring yours truly, as well as your fellow discos, okay? The whole community's over there. We're all talking it's pretty cool got a bit but the only thing uh we're missing is you so get in here okay go to disgrace landpod dot com slash membership to sign up right now all right back in flash all right let's recap shall we number one there's more after party for you to listen to right now all you got to do is go to disgrace land pod dot com slash membership and sign up to become an all access member but

if that ain't your bag the number two right now in your feed this week's episode on maryland Monroe coming tomorrow from the archive, a rewind episode on Tom Petty. All right. Number four next week in the disgrace land feed, part two of our Maryland Monroe story. Number five, my number is 617-906-66-6-6-38. Call me on the telephone or text me. And last, remember, no one cares about the music that you love more than you do. And well, that is a disgrace.

Now, my moment of bliss, in honor of this week's episode on Marilyn Monroe, the billboards best-selling popular retail records for the week that Marilyn and Joe imagia were married the week of January 9th, 1954. Number one, oh my, by Eddie Fisher. Number two, rags to riches by Tony Bennett. Number three, that's a more, Dean Martin. Number four, changing partners, Patty Page. Number five, ricochet, Teresa Brewer.

number six stranger in paradise tony bennett number seven stranger in paradise four aces number eight ebb tide

rickache frank jacksfield by eddie fisher number nine old mind poppin paradise edie calvert tony bennett number ten that's strange that's right

and start mixing Cut it!