DISGRACELAND - Bonus Episode: Jake x RedHanded Crossover Episode

Episode Date: November 9, 2023

A special AFTER PARTY featuring a crossover episode with the award-winning UK-based true crime podcast REDHANDED. Jake joins REDHANDED hosts Suruthi Bala and Hannah Maguire to discuss the wild and tragic story of Marvin Gaye. The 1984 murder of one of Motown’s biggest stars – at the hands of his abusive, alcoholic, Pentecostal preacher father – stunned the industry. But despite the media frenzy, almost no justice was served. What are your thoughts on Marvin Gaye, or on this crossover episode with REDHANDED? Get in touch at 617-906-6638, [e-mail], or on socials @disgracelandpod, and come join the After Party. To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is exactly right. Double Elvis. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed. I will be his last target. He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends.

Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This season on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler, we have some fantastic guests like Amelia Clark. When like young people come up to me and they want to be an actor or whatever. My first thing is always, can you think of anything else that you can do? Rather be disappointed in. Do that.

David O'Yellowo. I love this podcast, whether it's therapy or relationships or religion or sex or addiction or you just go straight for the guts. Dennis Leary, Gaten Matarazzo from Stranger Things, Tana Monsu, Camilla Morone, Carrie Kenny Silver, and more. Listen to these episodes of Dear Chelsea on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Sometimes a suspect is found guilty before a verdict is ever read in court. On the Wicked Words podcast, I talk with the writers who dig deep into the cases that changed history,

including Marsha Clark, who went from prosecuting one of the most famous murder cases to writing crime fiction. It doesn't matter that you didn't take part in the murder. If you were at the scene at all, you're guilty of murder. Every week, the real story is revealed. Join us every Monday for new episodes of Wicked Words. Listen to Wicked Words on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, Discos, need a little more disgrace land in your life? Just a touch to get you through? Yeah, me too. This is the podcast that comes after the podcast. Welcome to Disgraceland, the After Party. Welcome to the Disgraceland bonus episode, a little thing we like to call the after party. This is the show after the show,

the party, after the party, the bridge to get you from one full of... All right, guys, this is an extra special after party bonus episode because I was able to sit down as a guest with two of my favorite podcasters, the incredibly smart, funny, and talented women from one of the biggest true crime shows on the planet, the red-handed podcast.

These guys just won the Listeners Choice Award at the British Podcast Awards for the third straight year. And we spent our time talking about the murder of Marvin Gay, which is something that I know you guys will be interested in. Because as you know, we released an episode on Marvin Gay sometime back, and we'll be re-releasing it into the feed after this red-handed conversation drops. Going to be making a habit of this, finding ways to resurface archive episodes, as we've been doing, but with a little more intention, mention when we have them hit your feeds.

They're going to be hitting your feed every Friday. But more on that later. All right, for now, I give you me the murder of Marvin Gay and the Red Handed podcast. A podcast you guys are going to be sure to go follow as soon as this episode ends. All right. Thanks, guys. Let's do it. I'm Sruti.

And welcome to Red-Handed, but no ordinary Red-Handed. D-D-D-D-D-D-D. Very extra special, very exciting, red-handed. Very musical Red-Hand. A musical murdery red-handed. Yeah. And we have the absolute pleasure of welcoming Jake Brennan from, I read just this very morning on the interwebs,

host of the most downloaded podcast of all time. Disgrace Lance. So podcast royalty, Jake, talk to the people. Don't caveat. Hey, guys. Hey, hey, I'm so happy to be here. I'm not in London, though. I'm here in the States. Thanks for having me.

I do have a, just, you know, I hate to be an asshole right out of the gate, but quick correction. Most downloaded music podcast. You got qualify in there. There we go. That is a big win still, though. There's a lot of music podcasts out there. So congratulations.

Big one. Well, thank you very much. Thank you. For the people who are listening, who for some reason have not heard of disgrace land, please can you tell them who you are, what you guys do? Tell us a little bit. Sure. Discreeland is very simply a music and true crime podcast.

So everything we do has a true crime angle to it. We tell the stories of musicians. and either the insane crimes that they have themselves committed or been accused of committing or just the insane things that have happened to them. So it's everything from, you know, Cardi B assaulting somebody in a club to Jerry Lee Lewis potentially getting away with murdering his wife, to the assassination of John Lennon, to Lil Peep overdosing, Mac Miller, we're all over the place. We cover every single genre.

And yeah, it's just music and true crime. That's the easiest way to say it. Nice. Well, we are very excited to have you here. And listeners, you guys know we don't do this very often. We haven't done very many collabs on red-handed. But we thought, you know what? We're getting into the end of the year. This month, you guys are getting a two-parter on Lynette Dawson and a two-parter, probably on Israel Keys. So there is a lot of like just hardcore true crime coming your way. So we're not stepping away from it today. Don't worry. Like I said, very murdery today. But we thought we would try something a bit different and invite our new friend,

Jake onto the show. And I think it is quite a nice story how this happened, isn't it? Because I believe it all stemmed off the back of an Instagram comment. It did indeed. So we did Brenda Spencer, who's obviously the inspiration of boom time rats or down like Monday. And then I like to think it was Jake. It might have been someone else. Someone from Disgrace and comments and have been like, we should collab on the music side of this. And I was like, sick, yes, but we'd obviously already done Brenda Spencer. We have. So out of that sprang a conversation and then we landed on the case that we're going to do now. And I'm very excited. did not know what happened to the person in this story, happened to the person in this story.

I think we can say his name. It's in the title. Marvin Gay. I did not know what happened to Marvin Gay, happened to Marvin Gay. So I'm very excited to get started. And also, like Jake said, he couldn't be here in London today. He is in the States. He is actually my moving buddy because we're both moving houses tomorrow. So there's a lot of boxes and a lot of moving around going on at the moment. But Jake has promised that he's going to try and bring up the topic of pandas. And if he does, the next time we do meet, I will owe him one Guinness. So let's see what we can do, people.

It's the same color as pandas. Oh, it is. Yes, good one, yes. They're everywhere. Trying to hunt me down. Right, okay, I think then, with introductions out the way, should get going. Let's do it. All right. Is everyone ready?

Jake, you ready? Let's rock. I'm ready. Okay. This is the story of two Marvin Gayes. On the face of it, it's the story of two men, Marvin Pence Gay Sr., and Marvin Pence-Gay Jr. one, a cross-dressing Pentecostal preacher who ruled with an iron fist, and the other, a multi-award-winning voice of a generation. That's quite a mouthful.

It's quite a sentence. Well, I crushed it, so thank you very much. But also, the chart-topping Motown legend was nowhere near perfect. Behind the charming soul singer with the golden voice was a controlling, self-sabotaging, unpredictable wreck. And this fight between the two sides of himself, as well as the destructive force that was his father, stalked Marvin Gaye throughout his career. through number one albums, multiple Grammys and critical acclaim.

He fled his demons and the ghost of his father's abuse to Hawaii, Belgium, and deep into the Santa Monica Mountains where he held a shaking knife to his girlfriend's throat. And eventually, just after a whirlwind tour, he returned to his parents' house and died by his father's hand. This is the story of one of the most notorious murders in musical history. The first Marvin Gay, with no E, was born on a Kentucky farm. Form? Form.

Where am I? You sound like you're from Boston. Did you do that for me because I'm from Boston? Did I do form? Did I do farm in a Boston accent? He wasn't from Boston people. He was born on a Kentucky farm in October 1914. And he was actually one of 13 children.

It's too many. That is a lot of children. 13 too many in my opinion. And unfortunately, for Marvin Gaye Senior, this giant family was vicious. He grew up in a storm of fights, which occasionally escalated into serious violence, and sometimes even a bullet.

One afternoon, Marvin recalls his father beating his mother until blood poured out of her face. Another night, his father shot his mother, but said it was just a warning. It's a hell of a warning. Now, Marvin Gay Senior's mother survived, but the atmosphere scarred the young Marvin and taught him the meaning of violence as power.

When he was young, his mother moved the family to a new church. And if you thought what you had to say, Hannah, was a mouthful. Let me tell you the name of this church, because this church was called, The House of God, the Holy Church of the Living God, the pillar and the ground of the truth, the House of Prayer for all people. Put the the Thesaurus down. It's enough. House of God is enough.

They were just like, we've got to get everybody. Bums on pews. What do we call it? But just for fun, they called it the House of God for short. And the House of God was a pretty interesting mix. It combined Pentecostal Christianity with Orthodox Judaism. And that meant no Christmas and no Easter neither. Oh, boo. I know. The worst of everything.

Who were we talking to you the other day who was saying that he knew. knew loads of Jehovah's Witnesses and it was mainly people who just like didn't want to pay for Christmas. Yeah. It was Callum, my videographer. Yeah. So yesterday when we went on our ghost hunt, our videographer was saying where he grew up, there were a lot of Jehovah's Witnesses, but he was like, but it was mainly just the dads who didn't have jobs. And they were like, no Christmas. We don't do Christmas. No Christmas. No birthdays. It's very cheap when you don't celebrate anything. As a dad, I can't get behind that. I just can't do it. Christmas is, uh, it's worth the hassle, I think. Unless you're Marvin Gay, then it's definitely not worth it.

You're right. Spoilers. So it gets even better. No Christmas, no Easter. And a strict patriarchal structure, women and girls were subservient, dressed all in white with embroidered blue skull caps. They didn't eat shellfish or pork, and they strictly kept the Sabbath. Every Friday night at sundown, members down tools from then until Sunday morning. Everything that wasn't praying and praising God was forbidden. What do you do then? Just pray? Well, hit each other apparently.

Pray and try not to commit outright murder. Yes. Got it. When the first Marvin Gay became a minister, he was totalitarian in the way he enforced his listening of strict rules. And when he came to have a family of his very own, he was no different. He moved the family to Washington, D.C., and used violent discipline in the pursuit of what he saw as the perfect godly family. And there were no vague threats.

During those years, he'd even tell his children straight. brought you into this world and I can take you out. What is the scariest thing either of your parents have ever said to you growing up? You're going to be a podcaster. I mean, mine was probably quite similar to what Marvin Gay heard. I'll put you through that thing more. Mine was an A-minus. You get in here.

Don't come back down until you're a doctor. Yes, yes. Don't come back down until you're a doctor. I'm a podcaster. Siru's dad is slimly clinging on to the hope that she will one day retrained to be a doctor. The person who can't look at blood. And Marvin Gaye Senior was by far the harshest with his second child, Marvin Pence Gay Jr. Marvin Jr.'s mom, Alberta, would later say, my husband never wanted Marvin and he never liked him.

For some reason, he didn't love Marvin. and what's worse, he didn't want me to love him either. Rough stuff. That is so rough. That is so rough. But that's quite like, I don't want to say common thing because it's not common, but that is quite an archetype. Like the father who then has children and then is resentful of the mother giving attention

to that child. And then the resentment that that breeds turns into abuse towards that child, which is just so bizarre because it like overrides the natural biological urge that parents are meant to have to protect and protect. prioritize their children. But we do see it. We see a lot of this in True Crime. It's not a very Christian though, is it? No. None of what he does is very Christian. So Marvin Gaye Jr. grew up in what was known then as Simple City. It's pretty good. What's happening? My theory, Jake, is, is it just that America, the US, I should say, is so big that you guys are just like,

there's too many things to name, name it whatever the hell you like. Simple City. Sure, what the hell? I think you're hitting the nail right on the hell. head. I think this was named with extreme laziness and not a hint of irony. No, no. So we're not missing any irony. Okay, got it. Right. What is the best city name you've come across, though, in your years at Disgraceland? Well, I don't know. I mean, I mean, just not to be totally basic about it, but, you know, they called, you know, obviously Elvis is his home, it's not a city, but his estate was Graceland. And Jerry Lee Lewis was such the opposite of Elvis. He was such a hellraiser and a maniac that the locals called where he lived disgrace land, which I always thought that was interesting, obviously.

That's why we named the show that. I see. I thought you were just punning off Elvis's, but now it makes sense. Interesting. Simple city is up there for me, but also it will be very hard to top truth and consequences. Truth or consequences. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Where is that from, actually?

I've heard that. New Mexico. There it is. It's David Parker Ray. Abducted all those women, kept them in his weird, like, sex cabin, tied them up, tortured them, etc, etc. Truth or Consequences, New Mexico. They named themselves that because they wanted to win a prize from a local radio show.

Yeah. It was the first town that changed its name to truth or consequences won the radio show, and that's why they did it. Wow. Amazing. It sounds like it's out of a Cohen Brothers film or something like that. Yes. I mean, it might as well be.

I think about 15 people live there now. So back to Simple City, where Marvin Gay Jr. is growing up. He later called it a slum of Washington, D.C. So, Simple City, it's not like it's a nice place to live. It's a slum. They couldn't even be bothered to name it, they just called it Simple City. And from a young age, Marvin Gay Jr. grew to expect the belt for any minor transgression, real or imagined, against his father. It was a campaign of fear the older Marvin seemed to take pleasure in.

Marvin Jr. remembered being told that he would be whipped. only to be made to wait in an adjoining room for over an hour for his punishment. So, Dad's really like not just the physical torture. It's also the psychological abuse. Yes, domestic terrorism is what we're seeing here. And all the while that Marvin Gaye Jr. was waiting in that other room for his beating, his father would stand in the other room, shaking the belt buckle. He later told his biographer David Ritz,

and this is a quote, the only way to short circuit the agony was to provoke him even more and just get the beating over with. That is so sad. Basically, he's like, I wanted to just forego the psychological torture so I would provoke my father

until he just beat me and got it done with. So yes, we can really see a pattern starting to emerge here. Basically, it was like Marvin Jr. said it was like to live with his father. Quote, It was like living with a very peculiar, changeable, cruel and all-powerful king. Narcissist.

Mm. And the word peculiar doesn't just refer to Marvin Gaye's unusually savage parenting. Marvin Sr. was not like the other dads in Simple City. He totter around the house in his wife's heels, her best dresses, and her wigs. And sooner or later, the neighbourhood kids saw him do that through the window and let Marvin Jr. have it. and eventually it wasn't a secret anymore. Marvin Sr. was a flamboyant, unashamedly cross-dressing man of God, and that didn't sit right with the Washingtonians of the 40s and 50s.

The shame came from all sides for Marvin Jr. From his family's esoteric religious customs to his father's quirks and even being teased as a sissy for his own shyness. And for Marvin Jr., his first suicidal thoughts hit him in his early teens. His church was a strict and unforgiving place, and only activities that served to praise the Lord were allowed. But luckily for Marvin Jr., that included music. And we're going to pass over to you, Jake, as our music expert.

Can you talk a little bit about the church's influence on popular music in the 40s and 50s? Yeah, it's hard to overstate just how influential gospel music, the music that came out of the church, was on black culture in the 40s, in the 50s. And just, I know it's obvious, but I've got to say it, when I refer to the church here, I'm referring to sort of the universal Christian black church in America, the 40s and the 50s, Baptist Church. I'm not referring to whatever crazy, nutty church Marvin Gay's father was preaching at that we talked about earlier. Yeah. It kind of goes without saying, but worth pointing out, just massively influential.

Gospel music is, of course, the Sunday morning music, which is different in subject matter lyrically from the Saturday night music of blues and R&B that's happening in the clubs, but the same people are listening to gospel music and church on Sundays. And you have, as it pertains to Marvin Gay, you have these artists come out of the gospel church. In the 50s, you have Sam Cook come out in the 60s, Ray Charles. And when they come out of gospel, they meld the actual music with secular music, with pop music. And the irony here is gospel music has this looseness to it and ironically this sexuality to it. that when it was merged with pop music, secular music, it becomes what we now know as soul music.

So Marvin Gay is a young kid, he's watching all this happening around him. And in Sam Cook, he sees a model for him to sort of use the church and use gospel music to propel a sort of music career for himself. Wow, that's fascinating. I didn't know at all, but this is just speaking to my own ignorance about this. How many of those incredibly influential artists came from a gospel background? Yeah, it's almost an endless list. I mean, you have a reethyst. Franklin, whose father was a major preacher at the time, and then even just a ton of blues musicians who you don't even associate with gospel music, like Muddy Waters or Beebe King. They all kind of passed through the church at one point and go on to do their thing in secular music. But the real

big stars like Sam, I mean, Sam Cook was a worldwide phenomenon almost. And that was a real template for Marvin Gay. And thankfully, Marvin Gay had this immense talent himself that could match his ambition in the model of Sam Cook that he was seeing. Absolutely. And when you think about it, does make sense because even in the nutty church that Marvin Gaye Sr. is hanging out in, a house of God service could actually include a whole small orchestra of instruments, saxophones wailing, hand clapping, organs and tambourines. So even in a place where there is nothing allowed except the praising of God, the music is there. And that's what is, like you said, Marvin Gaye Jr's savior. And that's why there's so many, like in early,

soul and Motown specifically, so many super tight harmonies, especially in backing vocals, because all of the backing singers had sung in choirs and church, they knew how to do it already. Exactly. So at this church, like probably many churches at the time, people would pour into the aisles, possessed by spirit sometimes, and Marvin Gaye Jr. was a sensation. He'd learned the piano by ear from the age of five, and his voice blew people away. And for a while, even his father was impressed. But by his late teens, Marvin Gay Jr. was singing for money.

He was into that secular music. He'd sung what he'd heard on the radio, Do-Wop. To Marvin Senior, it was the devil's music. Jake, could you tell us what is do-wop? What are we talking about here? I don't know if I'm... I feel like I kind of know, but tell us. I feel confident.

I mean... Yeah. I'm not going to say. Duop, of course, just is, you know, vocal music, a cappella music that sprung up from street corners largely, and it's kind of to hit back to what Hannah was saying earlier, the sort of tight harmonies from the gospel church influenced duop as well. But, I mean, to somebody like Marvin Gay's dad,

anything that was not strictly gospel music was the devil's music. I mean, anything. I mean, even like I was reading something the other day that, you know, Marvin Gay got in trouble for reading, I think Charlotte's Web, because it was considered to be a book of the devil, which is just insanity. But, you know, duop, you can picture like, you know, four Italian guys on the street corner in Philadelphia

with greasy hair singing together. This is just sort of the earlier incarnation of that from the 40s and 50s. Perfect. This is great having Jake on. I feel like I've done so many more research about any of this music. I can just be like, Jake, please tell us. But yeah, so Marvin Gay-Signor absolutely goes without a doubt saying He is convinced this is devil music.

He is not interested in his son doing this at all. But Alberta Gay, Marvin Jr's mother, she gave her son permission to follow his talent. And it was his ticket out. By then the beatings had only increased. Marvin Jr. may have been taller and stronger than his father. But he never talked back. In his own words,

quote, I wanted to strike back, but where I come from, even to raise your hand to your father, father is an invitation for him to kill you. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl. You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes.

And rule two, never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield, and in this new season of the girlfriends, oh my God, this is the same man. A group of women discover they've all. dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me?

The cops didn't seem to care. So they take matters into their own hands. I said, oh, hell no. I vowed. I will be his last target. He's going to get what he deserves. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe.

On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you thought it was. Your identity is formed by a secret history. I'm Danny Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring on the 14th season of Family Secrets. And just then, we felt the plain turn in the air, so much so that the bags that were under people's seats just kind of flew into the aisle.

Each week, we dive head first into the complex power of secrecy, how it shapes our identities and relationships, and how it ultimately can reveal to us our truest sense. selves. My daughter, she's pretending she doesn't know, but is trying to cook and feed me and keep me alive because I wasn't eating anything and me pretending like everything was fine. He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move. And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off. And that was the last time I saw him. Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets starting May 7th on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This season on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler, we have have some fantastic guests like Amelia Clark. When like young people come up to me and they want to be an actor or whatever, my first

thing is always, can you think of anything else that you can do? Rather be disappointed in. Do that. Dennis Leary. I wake up and I'm hitting him in the head with a water bomb. And Bruce Jenner is on the aisle in a karate stance like he's about to attack me. Like making karate noises. And his entire the Kardashian family.

over there, everybody's going, and the air marshal is trying to grab my arms and screaming. And I immediately know that I've been asleep walking. David O'Yellowo. I love this podcast, whether it's therapy or relationships or religion or sex or addiction or you just go straight for the guts. Guy Branham. So anyway, Nicole Kidman broke up with Keith Thurban. Being half of a country couple was always a hat she was going to wear, not like a life she was

going to lead. Oh, interesting. I like that. Did you practice that on your way over? Gait and Matarazzo from Stranger Things. Tena Monsu. Camilla Morone, Carrie Kenny Silver, and more. Listen to these episodes of Dear Chelsea on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And with that neat bit of foreshadowing firmly in the bank, Jake, we're going to hand over to you because we are going to skip ahead a bit. Marvin Gaye joined and quit the Air Force. and then he joined a do-wop group called The Moon Glows

and then moved to Chicago. He sung back up for Chuck Berry and eventually he caught the attention of a young producer and one of my least favorite men of all time, Barry Gordy, who had just founded Motown Records. And I have a particularly strong opinion on him because before I did red-handed as my job, I worked on Motown the Musical.

And Motown the Musical is a very... So Dream Girls is a very thinly veiled story of Barry Gordy and Diana Ross and the Supremes, right? All of the names are changed, but the story is the same. Motown is the rebuttal, right? So, like, it is, it shows Barry Gordy as this, like, young, up-and-coming kid who just, like, started from nowhere.

His parents lent him $200,000 so he could start the label. Like, he was not, like, and he met Diana Ross when she was 14, like, piece of shit, fucking awful guy. So it took me, when I finally quit that job, I would, like, be on road trips with my friends and some Motown will come on. I'll be like, please turn this off. No, MoTam. Because my desk was directly above the stage.

So I would like hear like, oh, it's the contours. It's lunchtime. How many shows were there a day, too? Two. So you had to listen to Motown the musical twice a day every day for how many years? Well, once because I went home for, okay, okay. My mum was in town. I want to go and see it.

And I'm like, okay, I'll just sit through it again. So I'm going to hand over to you for possibly a more positive spin on Motown. And I'll just shut about how much I hate Barry Gordy. Okay. Okay, so that was the Dreamgirls. Now, I'm giving the Motown rebuttal. Is that what we're doing? Exactly, exactly. All right, okay, with all that context of what we now know about Barry Gordy, we do need to kind of travel back in time to where we're at when talking about Marvin Gaye vis-a-vis Barry Gordy. Fast forward from the influence of the church in the 1940s to the 1960s to early 1960s and the secular music that was made by Motown Records.

And it's really hard to describe now just how influential Motown was on popular culture. It was the first entity of black music making that crossed over in a very significant way and sold records en masse to not just black kids, but to white kids. And that was a huge deal at the time. We take it for granted now because everything is so integrated. But back then, obviously it wasn't. and even the charts, we'll talk about this later, weren't integrated either. And it wasn't like they had one or two hits. It's like they just crushed it constantly, consistently, and Barry Gordy,

for all of his flaws, Hannah, was a genius on the level with some of the great innovators in American history. I mean, Motown Records is Detroit. And Barry Gordy, all he had to do was look down the road at the Ford Auto Factory and go, okay, there's my template on how to make music. And he quite literally took the process that they were using to make cars, the assembly line process, and used it to make music. He had staff writers, staff producers, he had singers that were kind of interchangeable and few were the really good ones became icons like Diana Ross, whom he mentioned. So Marvin Gay has this influence in Sam Cook early on. And he uses that as a template to kind of model himself. And with, that and with the sort of musical package that Marvin Gay and talent had put together,

he could not have landed at a better place than Motown to launch his career. All caveats and asterisk that Barry Gordy was a very bad guy and did a lot of shitty things to a lot of people, a lot of artists, especially in young women. But I just want to, you know, give the proper context. No, absolutely. You did the right thing. Context is key. And, you know, it's like, we've said so many times on this show, you can be a great person

and not be a good person, a person who makes huge amounts of time. change and transforms a city, transforms a whole industry. Like you said, completely takes that huge, incredible step of desegregating the charts like we're going to go on to talk about later. Like you said, I could still be a bad guy behind closed doors. But I think the context is super important. So thank you for that. Of course, of course.

And Marvin Gay thrived in this environment. He started as a session drummer playing on tracks for Smokey Robinson and Stevie Wonder. And then he started adding piano and then backing vocals. And soon enough, he was writing songs. So taking a cue from Sam Cooke, Marvin Gay decided to add an E to the end of his name to lend himself some gravitas, as well as separating himself from his father and the rumors of homosexuality that still followed him. And Marvin Gay Jr. had his first hit with stubborn kind of fellow and started to make a name for himself. A string of hits followed, and he was an immediate sex symbol. Night after night, women were throwing themselves at him.

But one woman stood out. Anna Gordy, sister of Barry Gordy. And she was actually 17 years older than Marvin Gay. And it would be incorrect of us not to discuss this next bit because this is where we think. The second half of Gay's super-edipal life really fires up. There's the kind of fighting his dad bit. That was well underway. He's, you know, trying not to hit his dad back as much as he wants to. And now it's kind of into the shagging his mum season. And it was like we said, 17 years older than Marvin. Nothing went with her. But she was also very forthright and became an all-important voice of reason and discipline in Gay's life. And he wanted to be with her. Conveniently, she was also the boss's sister. It was love, there's no doubt about that. But there was also definitely a transactional element to this whole situation too.

You could, rather cynically, and we're going to, look at this as an opportunity, a way for gay to join the dynasty. So we married Anna, and shortly afterwards, he became one of Motown's biggest names. Back home in D.C., infighting had forced the House of God congregation to split into two. Marvin Sr's crowd was the smaller half and he soon found himself preaching in disused storefronts or at home in his living room and after a while he stopped preaching altogether

he worked briefly for the Air Force and then the post office but his refusal to work on the Sabbath soon got him booted out of both of those jobs soon he was doing nothing and that's pretty much how it stayed for the rest of his life Alberta Gay meanwhile was leaving the house at 4 a.m. the bus to the next date over to clean rich people's houses.

And soon Marvin Gaye had a series of hits and wrote several more for other Motown acts, like Dancing in the Street for Martha and the Vandellas. I'm just going to slip in here. Completely not Motown related. But Jake, I'm absolutely desperate to get your opinion on the Mick Jagger David Bowie cover of Dancing in the Street. I knew it. I knew you were going to say that. I knew it. And I was about to say something too, because I didn't realize until right now. that Marvin Gay wrote that song.

So I was going to say, we have him to blame or thank, depending on your point of view, for that just, it's both horrific and it's also just wonderfully entertaining the Mick Jagger David Bowie video for dancing in the street. So I'm on both sides of that fence. It's definitely a moment in musical history that I will never ever forget. But getting back to our story today, like everything else in the U.S. in the 50s, music was sadly segregated. For the most part, white music would chart in the top 40, and the songs that Black America were listening to ranked in the separate R&B or blues charts. For a black

artist to cross over into the top 40 took something really special. Jake, we're going to look to you again. Talk to us a bit about this. Yeah, a lot of this gets credited to, and I certainly did this earlier to Barry Gordy and his genius and how to produce songs, but a lot of it has to do too with just who Marvin Gaye was and the type of artist that he was where he was able to cross over. And we really need to illustrate here for the listeners who may not be aware just how difficult that was and what it meant to do that back in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. I mean, there were different sets of charts just like there are today. And I should say it's still a big deal today.

We just had all these country artists here in America who were on the Billboard Hot 100 not that they hadn't been before, but much was made of that because artists typically don't cross over. And the reason is radio. So, you know, for Marvin Gay to cross over, it means that those white radio stations, pop radio stations, were playing the record, playing the single, I should say. And, I mean, that translates directly into financial gain. It's just a much bigger audience. Those stations are so much bigger. They have a much wider and further reach. So, you know, it's one thing to cross over. You need a special kind of talent that Marvin Gay certainly had, but then when you do the level of success that that's going to bring you is going to be much

bigger than if you were just to be riding on the R&B charts. Do you think that Marvin Gaye intentionally set out to be able to do that? Or do you think it was just something that came because he was so talented? I think Barry Gordy certainly intended to do that, and by extension Marvin Gay did as well. So bit by bit, Gay crept up the top 40, until the ballad Pride and Joy made the top 10 at number eight. But, as always with Marvin Gay, he could climb high, but his demons weren't far behind. He'd been smoking weed pretty much constantly since the moon glows days. And as his star ascended, he turned to Coke.

He never really took to snorting it, though. Apparently, he just ate it? He just eat Coke. So there you go. I'm sure it gets the job done. I mean, it thoroughly did. And I don't know, maybe, obviously he has had a very abusive childhood. He's obviously looking to substances as some sort of crutch.

But it could also have been to do with the fact that Marvin Gaye apparently hated performing, which until we look to this episode, I would just never ever have guessed that to be the case that he hated performing. and apparently he could often be found shaking or being sick backstage before a show. But then, with a little powdered courage in his mouth, he'd blow them away, always finishing by mopping his brow with a silk handkerchief and then throwing it into the baying crowd. But by 1969, this duality got serious. His marriage to Anna was already pretty ugly.

They were both cheating on the reg and then using those infidelity. to twist the knife. Eventually, Marvin got a gun and locked himself in an apartment, and he said that he wouldn't leave until he, or whoever dared interrupt him, was dead. Eventually, he was talked down by his father-in-law, but these episodes repeated over the next few months. Sometimes Marvin Gaye would disappear for weeks without a word to anyone. He'd start to threaten his friends and family members at gunpoint, but all the while, his hits were only getting better. I heard it through the grapevine sold 4 million copies. It was Motown's biggest single so far.

And now, he was going to use his success to go his own way. When Gay's brother Frankie recounted his stories from Vietnam, the singer was infuriated and knew that he had to do something. And that led him to what's going on. Jake, can you speak a little bit about just what a seminal record that was? I can try. I think Charles Bukowski said writing about music is like dancing about architecture. It's very hard. It's very hard to do. Somehow we try, we keep trying though, but with what's going on, it's particularly hard. You know, I'm always struck by the context of the day is so much

different. You know, this was, this record, I'll start with the history of him trying to make it with Barry Gordy. Barry Gordy heard the demo or the first recording of the song, what's going on, and he hated it. He quite literally called it the worst recording he had ever heard. And he refused to put it out. And he didn't like anything about it. He didn't like the production, like the quote-unquote looseness of it, which I find to be rich. He didn't, he especially didn't like that it was political. That was the main reason. He didn't like it. But Stevie Wonder loved it. Marvin Gay played it for Stevie Wonder. A bunch of people around Motown who worked at Motown loved it.

And it became this big battle between Marvin Gay, who now had all this leverage because as he just mentioned, Hannah, he was on the charts and he had success. Whereas before, he wouldn't have said no or argued with Barry Gordy. Here he is arguing with him. And there's something like a seven, eight month battle that ensues where Marvin Gay refuses to work at all for Barry Gordy unless Barry allows him to make this record and put it out. And I just want to, I don't want to defend Barry Gordy here, but we're talking about a guy who is eating cocaine, who's also married to your sister. So if anybody has insight into just how fucked up Marvin Gaye was and has the inclination to not believe that he can pull off what no other black artist has done before, which is have a hit that is political.

Barry Gordy certainly had a unique perspective and unique lens into this and perhaps as a justified reason for not allowing Marvin Gade to do this. But the music should have spoken for itself. The music was, as we know, incredible to the point where I think it was an A&R guy who worked for Barry Gordy at Motown, ended up pressing singles on his own and sending them to some radio stations before it was officially released and the radio stations freaked out. They loved it. They played it. It becomes this massive hit. And two things about this. One, the original title was what's going on question mark. And Marvin Gay insisted, and he had a fight with his co-writers on this from Motown,

that it was just, no, it's not what's going on question mark. It's what's going on, period, declarative. Because this is a statement of what is happening in our cities. This is the culture that I grew up in, that I am seeing, that is not changing, that is getting work. verse, Vietnam, all the social unrest of the late 60s. And to speak to the significance of this album, quite frankly, there was nothing like it. There was no album that had done what it had done before. It quite literally gave license, not literally, it quite figuratively gave license to black artists to protest on the charts. And that had never been done before. We take it for granted now. But it was this album that almost didn't get made that opened the floodgates.

So I suppose in the end then it was the music that spoke for itself if it was getting secretly sent to radio stations. I think so, yeah. I think some things are just so undeniably great that you can't put him down. And it worked because almost 50 years later, what's going on was ranked number one on Rolling Stones' list of the 500 greatest albums of all time.

So even Marvin Gaye Jr. had to admit he was a superstar. A Marvin Gay's first L.A. home had been given to him by Barry Gordy. That didn't really sit right with the star. He wanted to buy a place for himself. So, after the success of what's going on, he bought what his family would later refer to as the big house. Marvin soon moved his parents into the mansion

and considered it a fresh start. But his dad, Marvin Sr., as usual, was not happy. He resented the fact that his son, sexed-up son's devil music had bought him this house. And he was still, as the father of an adult man, jealous of his wife's relationship with their son. So in a further effort to patch things up, Marvin Jr. would invite both of his parents even to go on tour with him.

But his father always declined, choosing instead to stay alone in the big house, stewing in his booze-soaked resentment. There was no way he was going to go on tour and watch all these people love his son. love and adore his son. That was hell for him. And whilst Marvin Jr. was working on the number one horniest song ever written, let's get it on, he was introduced to the girl who would become his second wife,

and we say girl, and we mean it. Gay would become obsessed with her, singing every one of his songs for the rest of his life with her in mind. Sometimes, and this makes me feel uncomfortable, he sometimes would whisper her name softly in the background of recordings. And the problem was she was 16. Marvin had been working on Let's Get It On with the singer and songwriter Ed Townsend and when Townsend bought his teenage daughter in to show her around the studio,

Marvin Gay was smitten with Janice Hunter. Before we move on to... Pastures new. Pastures new and old. And old. Young and old and everything in between. Just because we've mentioned Ed Townsend, I have to ask you how you feel about the Ed Sheeran trial.

I didn't follow it as close. as you as you would think, but I just think in general, all of these lawsuits that are being brought are frivolous for the most part. I think music is, there's only 12 notes a man can play, as the Easton Boy said, and you're going to run into these scenarios where there's similarities. And I think there's a much easier way to handle this. I think Tom Petty and Sam Smith, there was some beef there, they handled it out of court. It's just like, they just go for the jugular. Someone like Ed Shearing is so popular and so successful that I just think it strikes of being too opportunistic to me. Absolutely.

And I think if Ed Townsend hadn't had success with the Blurred Lines trial, he would never have gone after Ed Shearin. But I don't know if you saw, but Ed Shearin used to do the rounds on like morning talk shows. And he was like, there's only four chords in music. Tell me any song and I will play it for you using only these four chords. And those were the four chords they came after him for. And I don't even want to say got off. he rightly was like. Vindicated.

Yeah, vindicated. Yeah, yeah. And he said during the trial, he was like, if I lose this, I'm done. I quit the industry because it's ridiculous to sue people over courts. It's really interesting. But I think Ed Townsend will probably give up now. I mean, one would hope. But I do have an image of him just like sitting in his house, listening to every trap on Spotify, being like,

no, that's close enough. Write this down. That's good. But let's get back to Marvin Gay and where he is in his life. He's 33. He's in a crumbling marriage to a woman who's 17 years older than him. And now he's obsessed with a girl 17 years younger than him. So sorry to anyone who loves the song,

but the vocal line of, this is what a critic said about Let's Get It On. Unabashed peon to fucking. It was sung directly to a 16-year-old girl. Well, there you go. Okay, so we can all feel gross about that for a while. I just don't think about it. The guy was eating cocaine.

He didn't know. what the fuck's going on. Because yes, between eating all his cocaine and having a secret teenage girlfriend, Gay's paranoia was ramping up. So he ran to the Santa Monica Mountains, to a small house into Panga Canyon. And in the notes,

producer Breond, producer Alex Breond, has written down, if that name rings a musical true crime bell, well done, have a sticker. That's where Charles Manson got to know the beach boys. I didn't know that. All I thought when I heard Topanga Canyon was, did you ever watch Boy Meets Girl?

Because that was what that girl's name was. What, Topanga Canyon? Topanga. Oh. I can't remember her surname. Do you remember who I mean? No. I'll Google it.

I'll show you. Jake, do you remember? I was confused. I thought you meant that the girl from Boy Meets Girl was named Charles Manson. Her? Oh, yeah. So maybe she was named after the Canyon. All the Beach Boys.

Maybe have parents were big fans of Charles Manson. There you go. Anyway, so when he went to Pan Canyon, remember, he's paranoid. He's starting to go off his rocker, is Marvin Gaye Jr. So he gets two ginormous great Danes

to ward off intruders. And he hid his secret girlfriend away, from his record label, from the press, from his parents, and from his wife, because yes, he is still married. And it wasn't a good luck, especially after Janus.

got pregnant at just 17 years old, and then lost the baby. And that pregnancy, by the way, was no accident. Janice has since written, quote, we made love at every opportunity, night and day. We never used birth control. It was clear that Marvin wanted me pregnant, and I did nothing to prevent that. His possessiveness, jealousy and rage over this new muse of his

was all-consuming for gay. and Janice was soon exposed to the wilder parts of his lifestyle. One day, they went to a Coke-fuelled party at Richard Pryor's house, where the comedian lost control and smashed a wine bottle over his wife's head. They also went to Studio 54 with Mick Jagger and Jerry Hall, where actor, Ryan O'Neill, crept up behind Janice and put his penis on her shoulder. How very Kevin's base of him. Allegedly.

Ugh. After they married, Janice gave birth to their first child, and the 40-year-old Gay would berate the 22-year-old Jan for her changing post-birth body. He'd purposefully swerved the car while driving with Jan and the kids in it, and he'd threatened to drive them off the road. And soon, Gay pushed her into affairs with other men, booking hotel rooms for her, and any man he saw take a shine to her. Once, when Gay disappeared without a trace from a family holiday in Hawaii,

Janice came home and slept with Gay's rival, Teddy Pendergrass. And when Marvin found out, out of his mind on coke and mushrooms, he lunged for Janice with a kitchen knife. He held the knife to her throat and said, This love is killing me. I beg you to provoke me right now so I can take us both out of our misery. It's all very on the nose, isn't it? It's literally what he did to his dad. It's like, provoke me.

Provoke me so I can just do it. Yeah. Don't make me stay in. in this state of like wanting to do it, just make me do it. Yeah. And it is also interesting because he's a very paranoid man by this point. Like we said, he's very paranoid. He's very possessive.

He's very obsessed with maintaining Jan to himself. But then he also does a thing of like making her have these affairs with other men, which is interesting. Do you think it's possibly? But then he loses his mind when she sleeps with pentegrass. Do you think it's a weird way and it's still about him being in control? So as long as he's choosing who it is, Maybe it's again about not staying in that state of will it happen or won't it happen,

that psychological abuse that his dad, like, instilled in him. Maybe it's like, she's going to cheat anyway. I'm sure she's going to cheat. And maybe he can't stand that in-between stage of like, when's it going to happen? So it's the same as provoking his dad. It's like, I'm going to force you to have the severe. So at least I'm still in control. I know when it's happening.

I know what's going on and I know why I'm so angry. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe. I think you're out of something. I think it's partly that the control piece of it, I think there's part of Marvin Gay that liked men as well and liked the idea of some of the men that were sleeping with his wife.

I think that's part of it too. Interesting, interesting. Thankfully, on this occasion, Marvin Gay's mood switched and he let his wife go. She took the kids and she left for good. But Marvin did harass Jan, saying that she'd stolen his family and he'd accuse her of strange things like sending gang members to try and kill him. It's clear his parents. paranoia was getting worse.

And decades of not paying his taxes were catching up to him. The money from his string of hits was still flowing in. He once asked Motown for his recording fee to be given as a million dollars in cash, in a suitcase, so he could show his father he'd made it. That is so desperately sad. I mean, imagine being Marvin Gay and still feeling like, you need to prove something to your piece of shit father. Yeah.

There's, speaking of things that are on the nose, and I hate to drag it back to Motown to musical, but I can't help myself. There's a line in Motown the musical where I think they're arguing about the release of what's going on, Barry Gordy and Marvin Gay. And Marvin Gay just goes,

you're not my dad, I have a dad. And then he storms off stage. Oh, my God. On the nose. Oh my God. Yeah, and then you don't really see Marvin Gay for the rest of the show. Oh, because he's in the bag, he's in coat. No, because he's been shot.

I'm dad. Spoils. There's two golden rules that any man should live by. Rule one, never mess with a country girl. You play stupid games, you get stupid prizes. And rule two, never mess with her friends either. We always say that trust your girlfriends. I'm Anna Sinfield, and in this new season of the girlfriends...

Oh my God, this is the same man. A group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist. I felt like I got hit by a truck. I thought, how could this happen to me? The cops didn't seem to care. So they take matters into their own hands. They said, oh, hell no. I vowed. I will be his last target.

He's going to get what he deserves. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Your husband is not who you think he is. Your body is not what you thought it was. Your identity is formed by a podcast. secret history. I'm Danny Shapiro, and these are just a few of the stunning stories I'll be exploring

on the 14th season of Family Secrets. And just then, we felt the plain turn in the air, so much so that the bags that were under people's seats just kind of flew into the aisle. Each week, we dive head first into the complex power of secrecy, how it shapes our identities and relationships, and how it ultimately can reveal to us our truest selves. My daughter, she's pretending she doesn't know, but is trying to cook and feed me and keep me alive because I wasn't eating anything. And me pretending like everything was fine. He kind of shoved me out of the way and said, move. And he went out the front door and he jumped in a car and drove off. And that was the last time I saw him. Listen to season 14 of Family Secrets, starting May 7th on the IHeart

Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This season on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler, we have some fantastic guests. Amelia Clark. When like young people come up to me and they want to be an actor or whatever, my first thing is always, can you think of anything else that you can do? Rather be disappointed in. Do that. Dennis Leary. I wake up and I'm hitting him in the head with a water bomb. And Bruce Jenner is on the aisle in a karate stance like he's about to attack me. Like making karate noises. And his entire the Kardashians family over there, everybody's going,

And the air marshes trying to grab my arms and screaming. And I immediately know that I've been at sleepwalk. David O'Yello. I love this podcast, whether it's therapy or relationships or religion or sex or addiction or you just go straight for the guts. Guy Branham. So anyway, Nicole Kidman broke up with Keith Thurban. Being half of a country couple was always a hat she was going to wear, not like a life she was going to lead. Oh, interesting.

I like that. Did you practice that on your way over? Gaten Matarazzo from Stranger Things. Tena Monsu. Camilla Morone. Carrie Kenny Silver. And more. Listen to these episodes of Dear Chelsea on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. But this was the problem. So he is earning money. He's still making good money from all of his music. Of course he is. But the problem was that as soon as Marvin had any money, it would just go to paying off his debt, paying his divorce proceeds. and also to furnish him with an endless stream of drugs.

And by 1979, and surprisingly, Marvin Gaye's career had stalled. He was on the run from his ex-wives, his family, his fans, his label, and the taxman. For seven months he hid out in Hawaii, sleeping in his van or on the beach. Imagine how high you would think you were if it was 1979 and you were just on the beach and you saw Marvin Gay asleep. in the sand. What have I taken? But eventually, Marvin Gay agreed to tour the UK to drum up some cash. But it wouldn't be that easy.

His terror at performing on stage and his changeable moods made it a nightmare to organise. He climbed out of a window at Heathrow to avoid flying to Manchester for his next show. On another date, he was booked to perform in front of Princess Margaret, who is my favourite royal. Marvin Gay had heard, and these things are true. Very hip, liked a party. Princess Margaret absolutely both of those things. And that's why she's the best one. But in a sudden change of heart,

Marvin Gay claimed that he resented performing for royalty and said he had been tricked into the show by his tour manager. So Marvin Gay left Princess Margaret waiting in a theatre for hours until she finally gave up and left. That's pretty baller of him, though. It is pretty baller. It's like, nah. And naturally it was front-page news.

Headlines like pop star Snubs Margaret were splashed across the tabloids. Gay was making enemies wherever he went. He bounced around Europe and the US. CBS bought him for $1.5 million from Motown, hoping for one last comeback. And Marvin Gay built up his strength. He even sovered up slightly, staying with friends in Belgium. And then he made one of his biggest hits yet. Sexual healing.

Before we get into the sexual healing that we all so desperately crave here, can I just go back to Princess Margaret and say that Princess Margaret's 1960s exploits with in swinging London with the Rolling Stones, etc. There's some fertile stuff there for us to unpack at another time. I just want to lay that out there. Perfect, perfect. So in 1982, Marvin Gaye Senior moved back to Washington. so he left the big house and he went back to fix up the family's old house.

Now for the other residents of the big house in L.A., so that's Gay's mother Alberta and his siblings, Frankie and Jean, and their families, it finally meant having some peace. Marvin Sr's drinking hadn't improved over the years and neither had his temper. Soon, though, Alberta fell ill. She'd had a risky operation and she had weeks-long recovery to get through. all the while Marvin Sr., her husband, was nowhere to be found.

Marvin Gay Jr. was furious. He stayed with his mother and made sure she had everything she needed while she recovered, but he was soon pulled away by his public. After five rocky years, his career seemed to have bounced back. He won nine Grammys that year, and sexual healing would be the biggest R&B hit. of the 1980s. Even his drug use

was at the lowest it had been for years. But, then, two things happened to unravel Marvin Gay once and for all. Firstly, forced out on the road again, his 1984 tour would prove to be his wildest yet.

And secondly, 16 months after Marvin Sr. left, he returned to L.A. On tour, Marvin Gay, was completely out of control. Things had definitely changed since the early days. Jay, can you tell us a little bit about Marvin Gay at his best, and then we can compare it to where he ends up?

Yes, I can. I mean, Marvin Gay, you mentioned the success of sexual healing, and even when he's at his best, though, he's at his worst. So he's on stage, and he's crat. Now he's leaning into this sex symbol status that he has, and he's got this, like, I don't know, We talked about this earlier. Did we talk about the fact that he couldn't dance?

No. Marvin Gay couldn't dance, unbelievably. If you Google Marvin Gaye live footage, he kind of, you guys Seinfeld fans? Probably not enough. Kind of looks like Elaine Benis dancing. Listeners don't know what I'm talking about. Just like not a good dancer. So he had all this stage fright about being on stage.

And he had all this shame from this fear of being thought of as being gay because he was sensitive and the stuff with his dad and all that. So the way he combats that in the 80s is he leans into this sex symbol status on stage and he's doing like the strip tease, the sexual healing. And he's kind of a caricature of himself, but it works. It works for a while anyhow. But then the thing we all have to understand about where his live touring goes, I mean, he literally ends up bringing two men on the road with him. One is a priest. The other is his Coke dealer. and he has them on opposite rooms in his hotel connecting rooms so that he can do drugs and then immediately go confess his sins. Wow. It's a system. Talk about on the nose with the angel and the devil on each shoulder.

And it's a shame because he was really at the height of his success. And for a moment, things were cleaned up. But they go off the rails pretty quickly there in the beginning part of the 80s. It's just like, he is like nothing. if not on the nose. But it is just so tragic because it's like a man who's trying, he's like, I'm going to take my priest. But he's also like, but I love that Coke.

I'm taking you too. Dealer, get in. And yeah, I just pulled up a live video on YouTube of Marvin Gaye singing. I heard it through the grapevine. And you're right. He actually, once you know the context of the fact that he didn't enjoy being on stage and that he wasn't a good dancer, you are like he does look uncomfortable. He looks like he just wants to go backstage and eat some goat.

Yeah. A man's got to eat. So as Jake says, the performances of sexual healing got increasingly raunchy, and by the end of this tour in the 80s, by the end of the show he was basically just standing in his pants, offstage, he was throwing back lumps of coke like there were skittles, and the paranoia was all-encompassing. He was certain that someone was after him, that a hitman had been hired to take him out.

So he insisted that his brother be at his side at all times. they looked so alike that Marvin Gay wanted to use him as a decoy. And at one point, he was completely certain that he had been poisoned. He even hired attorney F. Lee Bailey, part of O.J. Simpson's dream team, to find out how he'd been poisoned and who by. Marvin Gaye said that the only reason he was still standing was that the comedian Dick Gregory had concocted an antidote to the imaginary poison that had saved his life.

Gay also went on to become obsessed with firearms, He'd been stockpiling them at his LA home before the 1984 tour and even brought his parents a handgun for Christmas so they could protect themselves. On tour he made his guards carry submachine guns and wore a bulletproof vest all the way up to the stage. As you can imagine from everything Hannah just told us all, that four-month tour was a total disaster. And afterwards, Marvin returned to the LA house, exhausted, manic, on the edge

and more paranoid than ever. Gay took a bedroom between his mother and his father on the top floor. Now, Alberta and her husband Marvin Sr. hadn't slept in the same room for 10 years. So it's basically mum, Marvin Jr. and dad on the other side. A little weird messed up sandwich. And Marvin Sr. by this point basically just stayed in his room the entire time, swigging vodka. And Marvin Jr., to be honest, stayed in his.

But he wasn't swigging vodka. He had started free-basing coffee. which is basically a method of producing cocaine that's almost 100% pure, and its low melting point also makes it easier to smoke. Within seconds, users get a heavy euphoric high, followed around half an hour later by a steep crash, which brings fatigue, depression, anxiety, irritability, and even more paranoia.

Marvin Gaye had an elaborate security system installed at the LA house, but he was in deep. Dealers would be in and out of the house, house constantly, as would women. At one point, up to 20 or 30 people would be coming in and out of that house every day, which is a lot for a man who is that paranoid. And his dad, Marvin Sr., absolutely hated this. And then, on the 31st of March 1984, Marvin Sr. woke up angry. As well as the commotion of the house, he resented his son's success and his relationship with Alberta, and pretty much everything else his son did as well.

But this particular fight on the 31st of March was about money. Marvin Gay Jr.'s debts were escalating, and it was threatening their home. It was later reported that at this stage, Marvin Gay owed over a million dollars to the IRS, a further $600,000 to the state of California, and another $300,000 in divorce payments. In 1984. Oh, my God.

That is horrific. Yeah. In one of the divorce settlements, the judge made Marvin Gay fork over the royalties to his ex-wife from his albums. He had like four albums he had to produce where all the royalties had to go to his ex-wife. So he purposefully tried to make them shit. And he just couldn't. He just couldn't. He just couldn't do it.

Like they're just, they're not bad albums at all. Wow. I don't think anyways. That's amazing. And Marvin Sr. was obsessed with wanting his son to know that he was a failure after all. And then, when Alberta couldn't produce a specific insurance document, Marvin Gaye Senior flew into a rage. He spent the rest of the day storming about the house late into the evening, shouting at no one in particular. It distressed Marvin Jr.

But he knew better than to step in between his parents having a fight unless he absolutely had to. Like we told you earlier, he knew what raising a hand to his father would mean. The next day, the 1st of April, the argument was still simmering. Irene, Marvin's sister-in-law, came from the guesthouse with breakfast for Alberta. Alberta had seen the state of Marvin Jr. In the past few days, he looked bone-tired like he hadn't slept for months. He looked, in his mum's words, like he wanted to give up. So she gave the breakfast that had been brought in to Marvin Jr. And for some reason, for Marvin Sr., this was the final straw. He saw it as yet another act of favouritism and more disrespect. And at just after midday on the 1st of April, 1984,

he shouted up the stairs to Alberta, and Marvin Jr. shouted back. Here's what he said. He said that if his father had something to say to Alberta, then he could come upstairs and say it himself. Oh God. And so Marvin Sr. did. He tore up the stairs. And as he ran in screaming at both of them,

Marvin Jr. leapt out of bed and shoved his father to the ground. He punched and kicked Marvin Sr. again and again. When Alberta separated them, Marvin Sr. quietly picked himself up, dusted himself off and went into his room. He returned with a 38 handgun that his son had bought him three months before for Christmas. Without a word, Marvin Gaye Sr. shot his son Marvin Gay Jr. directly in the heart. It's just such a classic end.

This like build up of violence in an abusive home with a narcissistic parent. And he was waiting. He was looking for something to happen. because Marvin Gay Sr. already knew the end game. He already knew he was going to do that. It was just how am I going to get there? So the bullet went into Marvin Gay Jr's chest, ricocheted through his right lung, diaphragm, liver, stomach and left kidney. And after he had shot his son, Marvin Sr. calmly stepped forward

and fired again into his son's left shoulder. And there you go, there's proof that it was. wasn't just a heat of the moment, a snap. He had time to go into another room, pick up his gun, come back in there, shoot him, and then shoot his son who's already on the floor again. So as this is happening, Frankie Gay, Marvin's brother, heard the shots and ran over. And he called 911. He then lay by his brother as a pool of blood covered the floor.

Marvin Jr. was saying the entire time, I got what I wanted. I couldn't do it myself. So I had him do it. It's good. I ran my race. There's no more left in me. Oh my God, that is so...

It's just so sad because it is just the cycle of his life ending up exactly where both of them knew it was going to end. It's almost like the tragic inevitability of it. And I know people say this all the time and it's such a cliche, but it's like watching a car crash in slow motion. This is exactly where it was always going to end up. as the gun was recovered just 20 minutes later, it had been tossed on the front lawn of the house. Marvin Gay was declared dead on arrival

at California Hospital Medical Center just after 1pm. It was the day before his 45th birthday. Marvin Gay Sr. was arrested and held at L.A. County Jail on a $100,000 bail. His account of the incident was widely reported and he painted Marvin Jr. as having exploded and drug-fuelled frenzy,

claiming that he had had no choice but to shoot his son in self-defense. Doctors also found a walnut-sized tumour in Marvin Sr's pituitary gland. His lawyers suggested that this may have affected his judgment, but the judge ruled that Marvin Sr. knew absolutely what he was doing and that he was fit to stand trial. Good.

Once again, he testified that his son was out of control and that, quote, he knocked me onto the bed, and when I fell, my hand happened to feel the little gun under the... pillow. And Marvin Sr. said that he was sure that the gun was loaded with BB pellets. And in September, Marvin Sr. unbelievably faced a reduced charge of voluntary manslaughter, mainly owing to evidence of bruising on his own body from the incident, and he pleaded no contest. The court heard that PCP had been found in Marvin Jr's body, which is known to make people violent. However, it's totally untrue. The prosecution had either misread or willingly misinterpreted

interpreted the coroner's report. Alberto Marvin's mum also repeated her version of events, which were that her husband had left the room after an altercation, returned with a gun and then coldly shot their son. Still, the narrative held that Marvin Jr. had flown into a drug-induced rage, and Marvin Sr. had to defend himself. It's so awful, but it's like Marvin Jr., he's basically been on tour, he's acted crazy, he's made a lot of enemies

he's made a bit of a tear of himself and so people are like of course I believe that he went into some sort of drug-fueled mania because this was bound to happen and it was you know it was behind closed doors like we said his dad was a domestic terrorist was behind closed doors that people knew what he was really like to everybody else he was just you know

a bit of a kooky preacher who happened to be Marvin Gay Jr's dad so of course people were like yeah that makes sense So on November 2nd, six months after he shot his son, Marvin Sr. faced his sentencing. And he was asked directly at this sentencing whether he loved his son. To which he replied,

let's say, I didn't dislike him. So brutal. So brutal. So brutal. So Judge Gordon Ringer's closing statement was this. This is one of those terrible. tragic cases in which a young life was snuffed out. But under the circumstances, it seems to be agreed by everybody, including the very able and experienced investigating officers in this case,

that the young man who died tragically provoked this incident. And it was all his fault. Even just the fact that the judge uses the word provoked this incident, It's like if this was some sort of hammy lifetime movie who'd be like stop beating me over the head with it Stop beating me over the head with this narrative But it's you can't escape it So Marvin Sr was sentenced to a six year suspended sentence

Which was then reduced to five years probation So Marvin Gaye Senior who shot his son twice once while he was lying on the floor, never went to prison. After 49 years of marriage, Alberta Gay finally divorced him after the trial, and he was prohibited from owning firearms or drinking alcohol. But he lived to the ripe old age of 84 and died in just 1998. So hopefully we've shown you throughout this episode that there were two sides to Marvin Gay. We've definitely covered some of the more troubled aspects of his life.

but we also have to couple that up with an incredibly astute, deeply talented artist that he was. He was beloved around the world, still is. 10,000 people queued for hours to pass his open coffin. And Jake, one last time we're going to hand over to you as our music savant. Could you tell us a little bit about the legacy that Marvin Gay left behind? For sure. You know, on the one hand, it's complicated, like you said. He was a very complicated guy.

He had really messed up relationships in his life with women that were violent. But on the other hand, you know, if I look at the most important thing that Marvin Gaye did, it is that album, what's going on. That to me is the crown jewel of his legacy. If he hadn't made that album, he would be just known as this great soul singer who had a bunch of hits, a bunch of number one hits, and, you know, perhaps move the genre in some sort of innovative ways. But with what's going on, he took it to an entirely different level.

And like we said earlier, he created license for black artists to protest using the billboard charts. And that had never been done before. And we take it for granted now. And it was a monumental achievement. And I think that's, to me, that's the most significant part of Marvin Gay's legacy. I think the most overwhelming tragedy of the whole thing, obviously, as we said, multiple times not excusing anything Marvin Gay did. But I think the saddest thing is that even though he was

at one time probably the most successful artist in the world, his dad controlled literally everything even the way he died. Right. Good point. Good point. And that's all we've got. That is it, guys. That is it. That is the story of Marvin Gay Jr. I'm not going to say Ann Marvin Gay Sr. because fuck that guy. And Jake, yes. This is it. This is your last like 10 seconds to bring up pandas. You failed to do it, my friend. Oh my God. Oh my God. No, no, I have the perfect one, though. It's Marvin Gay's other brother, Panda Gay. But he was the good son. He was the one that Marvin Gay Sr. actually loved. Totally controlled by Communist China, by way. He doesn't have sex. He hates sex. Total upset. There you go. There you go. All right. You did it. You did it. Guinness is on me when we finally meet up. Oh, my God, my voice is going.

Okay. I'm going to wrap it up because Suruti's dead. Okay. I killed her. Cool. So thank you so much for joining us, Jake. You've got. an absolutely encyclopedic knowledge of music that we will be stealing from you once more, I am sure, or many times more. Pleasure was all mine. Thank you so much for having me.

Loved hanging out and talking to you guys. Wonderful. Thank you, Jake. Okay, bye, everyone. When a group of women discover they've all dated the same prolific con artist, they take matters into their own hands. I vowed, I will be his last target.

He is not going to get away with this. He's going to get what he deserves. We always say that trust your girlfriends. Listen to the girlfriends. Trust me, babe. On the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This season on Dear Chelsea, with me, Chelsea Handler,

we have some fantastic guests like Amelia Clark. When, like, young people come up to me and they want to be an actor or whatever. My first thing is always, can you think of anything else that you can do? Rather be disappointed in. Do that. David O'Yello. I love this podcast,

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