DISGRACELAND - Bonus Episode: The Daytona 500, AC/DC, and Filmmaker Tiller Russell Talks the Night Stalker

Episode Date: February 23, 2023

Friend of the pod and incredible documentary filmmaker Tiller Russell (Netflix's Night Stalker: Hunt for a Serial Killer and the upcoming Waco: American Apocalypse) chats with Jake about AC/DC's connections to Richard Ramirez, the weight of dealing in crime stories, and much more. In other corners of the After Party, Jake shares details of his recent trip to Daytona and catches up on your messages. Join the party and leave your own message for Jake to reply to at 617-906-6638 and follow @disgracelandpod on socials.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is exactly right. Double Elvis. Hey, discos. Need a little more disgrace land in your life? Just a touch to get you through? Yeah, me too. This is the podcast that comes after the podcast. Welcome to Disgraceland, the After Party.

Welcome to the Disgraceland bonus episode. A little thing we like to call the After Party. This is the show, after the show, the party, after the party, the bridge to get you from one full episode of Disgraceland to the other, the backyard to dig into the dirt. On this episode, we are talking about the Daytona 500, ACDC, the Nightstocker, Richard Ramirez. And we are talking with Tiller Russell,

acclaimed filmmaker and director of the hit Netflix series, The Night Stalker. We're talking to Tiller about Richard Ramirez and ACDC, so stay tuned for that interview. And of course, you've got your calls, your texts, your DMs, me reading the phone book, and a whole lot of Rosie. All right, discos, let's get into it. All right, what is shaking?

I'm recording this way late on Tuesday morning. I just got home, flew back from, flew back late from Daytona, Florida. My buddy, Cam and I were at the Daytona 500. My first 500, we were guests of seven-time champion and all-round class act. Jimmy Johnson, the goat. NASCAR, the sport, it's got its hooks in me. I had an incredible time. I got to meet and spend time with a couple different drivers,

hang out with some folks from NASCAR, as well as with the fans, What an incredible bunch of people. Good-hearted, nice, an amazing community. Everybody was so nice and welcoming. And just an awesome event, my head is still spinning. All right, what else is going on? Season 11 of Disgraceland is among us. More on that in a bit.

Today's after-party here is going to be a little different. As I mentioned at the top of the show, this episode features an interview with acclaimed filmmaker, Tiller Russell. Among many great films, Tiller is the director of the smash Netflix hit Nightstocker from a couple years ago. And I wanted to talk to Tiller on this bonus episode because obviously the latest episode of Disgraceland

on ACDC is largely about the nightstocker Richard Ramirez. But before we get to Tiller, I want to get into some of your calls, your texts, and your DMs. As you know, you can call me 617906666638, like Monica from Dallas here. Hey, Jake, this is Monica from Dallas. Once about a time many, many moons ago, I knew one of the roadies for John Popper and Blue's Traveler, and he told me lots of crazy stories.

So I was curious if you would do an episode on, you know, Blues Traveler and maybe go into some of those stories as that guy was just completely bullshitting me or a liar or whatever. Or if Blue's Traveler and John Popper and all those cats were something interesting to maybe do an episode on. Really love the show. I love what you're doing and keep at it. Thanks so much. Bye. Thanks for the call, Monica. I got to admit, I don't know anything about Blues Traveler,

but I'm down to check it out and will now based on your recommendation. So thank you. All right, let's check out what Leon from the 716 has to say. Jake, Leon from Buffalo, New York. Hey, man, love your podcast. Can't wait for the ACDC episode, man. I've been waiting and waiting and waiting for it. I'm an over-the-road truck driver.

I go from Buffalo to Boston Mass twice a week. And all you do is listen to your two podcasts. Love it, man. Keep it rolling. Later. Leon, this is your lucky week, man. The ACDC episode was just released, and of course we are discussing it in this bonus episode

with Tiller Russell. Guys, 617906-6638 to have your dreams come true like Leon here. Call me, text me, 617-906-6638. All right, let's do some texts. From the 510. Hey, Jake, love the pod.

Been listening since season one, episode one. Even still, when one of your episodes drops, it goes straight to the top of the queue. Anyway, here's my question. What's better? NASCAR, IndyCar, or F1? Cheers, brother.

Craig from San Mateo, who has become obsessed with F1 in recent years. That's what he says there. Craig, man, I got to go NASCAR. I've been to one F1 race. I've been to, I just mentioned, went to the Daytona 500. The experiences are totally different. It's a completely different style of racing.

And there's something about the aggression of NASCAR. And sort of there's this weird connection to rock and roll in Americana and this sort of badass, rebel, transgressive culture that I'm clearly fascinated. with. So I got to go NASCAR. I am into F1. I'll always be into both. I think indie car, I've never, I've never messed with at all. But I'm down to check that out. And I think just all racing, all driving, drivers just fascinate me. They put their lives on the line in this way that I said is, to me, it's reminiscent to what rock stars do. And I haven't quite figured out how to articulate that, but I will. Thanks for the text, Craig. Appreciate it. Okay, from the 213, Ah, Chelsea, Chelsea Stardust, the director, Chelsea Stardust.

Look her up. Hey, Jake, Chelsea Stardust here. Hope you're having a great Friday, loving the new season. Huge, congrats. I had a bunch of fun things I wanted to share with you, so I ended up sending an email and sparing you a long-winded voicemail. Some things I think of all people would dig who work for you would appreciate.

Enjoy and keep up the incredible work. Have a great weekend. Thank you, Chelsea. I will check out that email. I'll report back on the next after-party. Let's see what we get here for some other text. All right, from the 704. S-up, Jake, it's Christina in North Carolina.

So I am super excited on Otis Redding. That needs to be aired ASAP. Well, Christina, Otis Redding is coming quick. I think it's, we got MacMeller next. And then I think it's Otis after that. I could be wrong, though. But I think that's what we're doing. Anyway, she goes on to say,

I was hoping to hear some about Chalino Sanchez and Valentin Ilizalde. I'm saying that wrong. I know I'm pronouncing that wrong. I apologize. I know this is not your wheelhouse, but these stories are great. Chalino played Coachella in 1992, and there was total mayhem. He was the original Colorado singer and was killed by the Narcos.

Whoa, staying away from this one. Thanks for the tip there, Christina, but I don't mess with the Narcos stuff. Keep listening, and you're going to get that Otis writing soon. Let's go on. We'll do another text here. What do we got? All right, from the 817. Hey, Jake, Max, from Texas here.

We're real happy you're re-releasing all the old episodes. They get me through the day at work, restoring classic cars, and keep up the excellent work, and my suggestion is an episode or two on Elvis. Hear me out. I know you said back in season one or two that when the Elvis episodes come out, then you're hanging it up.

But with the movie coming out, Lisa's unfortunate passing and everything going on with the family, I don't think there's a better time than now. Thanks, man, TCB. Well, Max, you do have a point. I'm not going to lie. I thought about it, man. but I'm saving the Elvis stuff until I leave the building.

It's going to be a while. I think it's going to be a season, hopefully in the far off, far distant future. All right, so those are some texts. Let me get to some social media direct messages, and I'll respond to those. Here we go. All right, Jason Rushforth on Instagram writes,

Yo, Jake, how is Daytona? You have to watch Uppity. Awesome documentary about Willie T. Ribs, one of the first, and for sure, the most successful black racing drivers of all time and all the bullshit he endured and overcame. He's still around and is a total character and a complete badass of a driver,

entertaining a FJ from the 253. Jay hit me on Instagram. Thanks, Jason or Jay, as you call yourself. This sounds amazing. I'm definitely going to check this out. I'm just consuming all types of NASCAR stuff right now, so thanks for the tip. I appreciate it.

I will report back after I watch that. Let's see. Who else we get to? here we'll do another one this is aaron she writes she sends this photo of this adorable dog i don't know what this dog is i wish you guys could see it it looks like some type of terrier mix it's white with this super cute black spot over its eye you know what it looks like it looks like the dog from our gang spanky and alfalfa um anyways let's see what she says here erin says this little man is our pup named lemmy yes for the late and great lemmy kill my sister sorry let me

Kilmeister. Even as an Ace of Spades caller, he does. This dog is awesome. Do you have any lemmy episodes that I may have missed? Also, I'd love an Arrowsmith episode. My husband and I saw them in concert this past summer and they still rocked and I think it may have been the best I've seen or tied with Elton John, Billy Joel dueling pianos at Gillette years ago. Hey, just so you know, Aaron, thanks for writing. And we do. We got an Arrowsmith episode that's coming out. It's done. I recorded it. It's coming out next season. So this year, a couple months.

Season has come by quicker now because we're going week to week. So that will be here in a matter of a few months, our Arrowsmith episode. All right. Let me see here. I got an email I want to read here. This is from, if I'm saying this right, P-T-E-R-I-P-E-T-E-R-I-P. object 50 cent mellotron hi jake i don't know how many finish listeners you have i'm one at least and how many of them mentioned this but your melotron clip on top of the recent 50 cent episode sounds eerily similar to an old

finnish schlager and it's pronounced i don't know how it's pronounced but the old finished schlager i don't know what a schlager is a song uh kultanenurus roughly translates to golden youth I guess all music has been written by now and we go to the second round. Great, great podcast, man. I've been listening since the beginning. Thanks for your amazing work. Regards, Pateri.

I had no idea about the similarities between the Melatron loop and that schlager, the Finnish schlager. I also have no idea where the schlager is. It sounds dirty. But I want to find out. Anyways, thanks for listening, man.

Thanks for listening in Finland. I'm stoked. Just, you know, yeah. Write to us. Keep writing to us from Finland. All right, back in a flash. Okay, guys, here's my conversation with Tiller Russell. Again, the great filmmaker creator of Netflix's Night Stalker on Richard Ramirez, who, like I said, we feature heavily in our current ACDC episode.

Here you go. Hope you dig it. Tiller, how are you? I'm doing great, brother. How you doing? I'm doing good. Okay, so everyone knows Tiller Russell. You're an incredible filmmaker, creator of the upcoming Netflix documentary series,

Waco American Apocalypse, as well as a director of Operation Odessa, and my favorite, the 7-5. You also directed the hit Netflix series Nightstocker, which is why we're talking today. Tiller, tell me what brought you to Richard Ramirez, number one. Number two, how long did you live in his world while you were making Nightstocker? And how did you deal with all of that darkness? Great set of questions. So Richard Ramirez, in some sense, walked into my life when I was writing for a TV show and a good buddy of mine who ended up being my partner on it, Tim Walsh, came in and he's like, hey man, I know the cops that worked the Nightstocker case. And I think there's this unbelievable story to be told and series to be made about it. Do you want to go meet these guys? And I'll give you a sort of odd confession, which is I actually normally hate that. I actually normally hate that. I'm a series to be made. serial killer shit and like run from it like the plague. And so I was a little bit reluctant when he had said that, but he's like, these dudes are pretty fascinating. And so I went and I try to

never miss a meeting that's at an interesting spot. So, you know, we roll to this like cop bar. And I go and sit down with these guys. And literally as they start to tell the story of what it was like, that hot, bloody summer kind of investigating the series of murders that began to strike Los Angeles. I'm looking at them and they're sitting in these like cracked red vinyl booths. It almost looked like it was out of time. And as they started to talk, I literally could envision what the series might be in my mind. And so from there, once it kind of like grabbed hold of me and sunk its hooks into my consciousness, I just, I got dragged along for the ride. Wow. That's amazing. That's amazing. You can kind of see it. You're up close with these guys.

and these cops are the characters in the series. Now, these were the two guys, right? Like, one was sort of the newbie and the other was sort of the seasoned veteran who, was it the, not the Green River Killer, the, was it Gary Ridley? It was a Hillside Strangler, Hillside Strangler, yeah. And it was this like weird, unlikely pairing of these cops, Frank Salerno, who was this old school kind of iconic legend of the Sheriff's Department homicide division and being paired with this young rookie kind of up-and-comer, Gil Carrillo.

And that dynamic between the two of them was what fascinated me and then the unexpected vulnerability, particularly of the younger guy. But can I throw it back to you, Jake, which is one of the things that I so love about what you do and that I love about this new episode is your ability to drop into these different perspectives. Like, as you were saying, I was anchored in the... the cop's perspective by and large or the victim's perspective. And what I think so, like, beautiful and elegant, and frankly, I'm so terribly jealous of, to be

real, is your ability to drop into all these voices. And, you know, whether it's Bon Scott's, you know, head and world or whatever, or whether it's dropping into Richard Ramirez, how the hell do you do that? Like, what's the, what's the secret sauce back at you, you know, back at you? Well, first of all, thank you. any compliment from you is just, just, I'm blown away. So I have nothing but admiration for the work you do. So that means a lot.

But to answer your question, I just, it's not, it's not something, that style of writing is not something I actually planned to do. I think it's just, I think it's a combination of two things. I think one, it's, you know, you do, you do all this research and you get it, you, you immerse yourself in it. And you sort of, you put yourself in the heads of these people. and I have this rule where I never try to express anything from the point of view of any of these subjects, whether they're the antagonist or the protagonist, that does not align with the truth of the story.

And the second part of that is it's a much simpler answer. It's just James Elroy. I think I just read so much James Elroy growing up that I just developed this sort of accidental style. and it's not a complete Elroy rip, but it's certainly, it's a strong influence. And I'm glad that you reference that because I like hear it and feel it. And I'm an Elroy nut too. You know, like when we were, when you're making these things that kind of like exist in a particular genre, you're always acutely aware of, you know, your predecessors in some way or another

and wanting to, you know, aspiring to hopefully fit into some kind of canon. And, you know, in the case of Nightstocker, it's like Dachal Hammett and Raymond Chandler and, you know, all the way through Elroy and beyond. But there's this, there's this kind of canon of influences, I think, that looms over anything. And I'm not at all surprised to hear that Elroy looms so large for you because you have that same kind of ratat-tat-tat rhythm and that ability to then, like, toggle really sharply between perspectives. And it's one of the things, you know, I've told you this before, but I'm kind of so jealous of what you do. Oftentimes, you know, in documentaries, what's so fascinating about it is it's this passport to other people's lives, right? These these like most vivid, sometimes horrifying, sometimes magnificent experiences of their lives. And like, I think of my job as a sculptor trying to kind of capture what it is, what that experience was for them

in human terms in an emotional and visceral sense. But what I love about the freedom of what you do, which also you see in, you know, I think the work that you're doing and in, you know, your colleagues and contemporaries in podcasting and the work that's being done in comic books and graphic novels is the most cutting edge and original because the boundaries are still porous in terms of,

and the rules are not codified. And every time I, you know, clock in, which I do, you know, frequently with your work, I'm so, I guess, fascinated by and envious of the methodology and that ability to do it. And you do it so beautifully. And I love the way you did it in this ACDC episode. Well, thank you, man. It's a strange new world. It's a new medium. And there aren't any real rules. And I didn't have any guardrails when I started. I also didn't know what the hell I was doing, and I had to kind of find my own way through it to do it and take all those influences that I had and sort of, you know, create this thing. So now when I come across something like, like I saw your series and I was like, oh man, this is how, I saw that ACDC hat. And I'm like, this is an ACDC story I want to tell because I always thought that Richard Ramirez and Bond Scott beared a similar resemblance. and that Ramirez was sort of, I mean, everyone knows who knows the serial killer stuff, that he was sort of like the rock star serial killer.

He had all those groupies in court. At one point, he shows up and he's wearing sunglasses and a suit, and he's really kind of putting it on. And then I'm like, well, I don't want to tell just the VH1 behind the music ACDC story that's been told before. So what kind of correlation can I make between Bond Scott and Richard Ramirez? And it turns out, you know, we all. laugh at, I actually got a lot of shit, not a lot, I got a little bit of shit from this today

from someone on social media, not that I read my mentions slash, I do read my mentions, but don't tell anyone, who said that, you know, just scoffing at the fact that the ACDC inspired a serial killer. But the truth of the matter is, they did inspire a serial killer. Well, well, and what's so, I think what's kind of increasingly weird about it, and you see it, you know, kind of acutely in all the social media today in which we're present. But really, you have all of these swirling cultural influences that are almost like waves crashing together and are impacting and influencing one another. I mean, one of the weird things about Ramirez was he, you know, when he finally sat down, there's all these stories, you know, that didn't end up

making it into the series. But when he finally sat down with those cops who, you know, who are in investigating him through that summer. He tells them that he, they actually sit down and watch the mini series that was made of them at the time. And they're all literally watching the Nightstalker made for TV movie together. But he tells them in the course of the kind of aftermath of this before the trial that he was a student of all the other serial killers that had gone before him. And not only that, but that he had been very closely watching Frank Salerno. as the guy who had captured the hillside strangler. And so I guess the point that I'm making is there is this cultural continuum where it's,

you know, rock stars are spilling into the lives of serial killers. Serial killers are spilling into the lives of rock stars. And I think what I love about disgrace land is you're mapping the weird boundaries and crossovers of that. And it's why one of these days you and I have to, you know, figure out how we're going to crack the adaptation of it. Because I think it's so there is this gap in the media landscape like whatever the shortcomings of VH1 behind the music were. That show ran forever. And it was kind of endlessly fascinating because, you know, you own the records.

You know, you have the posters in your room or whatever. But there's this lore and there's this mythology that's all behind it. And I think that's what you do so well is it's kind of telling both the mythology, but also very meticulously rooted in the journalism and the facts behind it. And it's this very fascinating blend of those two that I think is so fascinating what you do, you know, not just in disgrace land and all your work, but so beautifully in disgrace land. Thanks, man. And I mean, shit, I love behind the music.

I was a junkie for it growing up. But, you know, that's a style that's been done. And, you know, honestly, there's a lot of people doing that in this medium to some degree. And it's just not what interests me. So this sort of wacko thing that I've created is what interests me and thank God it works. You know, you talk about influences. And we've talked about ACDC influencing Richard Ramirez. We've never really, we've talked a lot sort of offline.

You know, I've interviewed you before and but we've talked on the phone and stuff about. about, you know, what books were reading, what movies were watching. We've never really talked about what music you came up with. What were you listening to in your formative years when you're falling in love with filmmaking? That's really interesting. You know, I was a kid in Dallas with no connections. Like, it seemed like a dream that I would ever actually one day be able to make something. So I was listening, you know, in the like late 80s, I'm listening to the, as like a skater kid, the kind of early like skater punk rock stuff. And then in the 90s, which is, you know, I think a lot of us default to that period in time when you're coming of age, you know, going from being a

kid to being a young man or a young woman. And so for me, the soundtrack of the 90s and all, like all corners of it, I think is something that I gravitate to a lot. Although my taste in in music is super weird and eclectic. And what I do is I'm constantly mining for, I think, new influences. So I read the Chuck Klosterman book, the 90s, which I don't know if you read that. If you haven't. Yeah, it's, and it's amazing because what he does in that book is he talks about, and it's like the soundtrack of, you know, our lives, those of us that were kind of, you know,

alive and young people then, whether it's the, you know, story of Nirvana or whatever else. But like, along with the soundtrack of, you know, the music that defined us, he also kind of maps how we go from this analog era to the digital era, which is something that only those of us, you know, of roughly this generation really experienced both sides of, you know, not both sides of. Like for everybody that's born after kind of the advent of the internet, it's hard to imagine like going to a record store and paying, you know, $11 for a CD that you can only play, you know, in an instrument, you know, in a machine that plays CDs and actually spending that much money on it. But whether it's, you know, buying the early Guns and Roses records or waiting for use your illusion to come out or. or whatever it was. That was such a huge thing for us,

whereas now everything is at our fingertips and that ability to be like, okay, I want to go deep clash today and look at the weird B-sides and experience the like reggae era and influence of that. You can, everything is so much more accessible that it's made my taste, I think,

I mean, everybody's, but certainly mine much more eclectic where I'm like, okay, I want to go on a trip here. and just go, you know, deep Sid Barrett or, you know, like I'll listen to, you know, your Sid Barrett episode and be like, okay, I'm going early Floyd and like deep Barrett and just like grooving out to that. But I kind of followed the trails wherever it comes. You know, I'll hear a song, you know, hear a hip hop song and a new movie and that'll send me off down that rabbit hole. So it's, it's become broad and eclectic. I can't tell which era is better. I really can't. I can't, you know, I hear you. I hear you. completely. And it was harder to discover stuff. I can't tell now, though, if it's, if it's me romanticizing my youth and thinking that it meant more because we had to work harder for the discovery of it.

And now the discovery is, it's so much easier. It's just like, you know, if I wanted to see taxi driver when I was 18, get on a bus, go to Worcester to my friend's apartment who lived near the cool video store, I didn't even live near a video in a town where they had a video story that would have taxi driver. You know what I mean? And, you know, convinced the cool kid to show it to me. And it was like this whole process you had to go to. Now it's, you know, you just go to YouTube and you'll get taxi driver clips. And maybe as a young kid, you're not even going to sit down and watch the whole film because you've seen it in all these clips.

I don't know. I don't know. It just. Well, I think there's joys to both sides of it, right? I don't think it's an either or thing. I think it's a both and in terms of, for those of us that experienced that, like, I loved the video store. Like, my, I lied to get a job in the video store and, you know, faking my, I got a fake ID to go to work in a video store because I was like that crazy for it. Because I was like, okay, I'm going to finally get to rent faces of death when they're not looking or whatever the hell it is.

Yeah, that was my thing too as a kid. So, so, so, so, so there was that joy to it of the, the journey and the scrape. and I don't smoke weed anymore, but I remember like when I did, there was that like the fun of like going to like, how are you going to score like a quarter bag of weed? Now it's like you go to the weed store and you get anything on earth or you go to the,

you know, you go to Spotify and you get anything you can think of. And I think there's good and bad to both sides of those, but I do miss the tactile, right? Like I miss, you know, holding the, holding the, I remember the VHS cases and like I could go to the video store

and just read the back. of movies and not even rent anything and have a totally satisfying experience. Whereas, you know, you click on like, you know, Netflix today and you're like, you're looking for 45 minutes to decide what to watch. And finally 45 minutes later, I'm like, dude, I'm too tired. I'm not, I'm going to read a book instead.

Exactly, exactly. I did the worst sin ever, man. I was in, I was in Orlando a couple days ago because I had to go to the airport. It's the only reason I was in Orlando, but I had a lot of time to kill. So I found, like, all right, I'm going to find, I'm going to Google like the,

the coolest coffee shop I can find, and that'll put me hopefully in a good neighborhood. And it did. And this coffee shop was beyond cool. I mean, they had this vinyl selection that blew my mind, and they only had like 10 books. And I found the Billy Holiday autobiography

on a hardcover, and I'm like, I am buying this shit. No one has this book, $400, so I didn't buy it. Right. But what I did discover was this DVD, this two DVD set of this documentary on Max's Kansas City in the famous club in New York. Yep. I've done every bit of research you could probably do into 70s New York, punk rock.

I've never heard of this thing. Never heard of this documentary. And I didn't buy it because I don't have a DVD player. Yeah, no, it's fun. And that's not going to put it in. Well, it's funny because there are all these super fascinating things that fall through the cracks of the, like, digital sieve, right? Like, because once upon a time when all these places started, like, Netflix was a mail order DVD joint. And so I'm kind of wondering, like, I may go back to the like mail order because

there's like weird stuff that's not streaming and not streaming anywhere that actually you can get on DVD. But yes, you got to get a DVD player. Right. But I, you know, it's like it's, it's renewed my love of the like vinyl collection and whatever else. Like there is joy to that tactile thing in this you know, digital, you know, bizarre domain that we all live in and have it and appreciate, but I also do miss just having it in your hands. I hear you, man. I hear you. All right, let me get back to, I want to get back to Ramirez for a couple more questions. One selfishly, I want to ask you this and see if you feel the same way that I feel and then how you deal with it. So oftentimes when I'm researching something dark and we both deal in a lot of dark

subject matter. If I spend too much time in it, transference is too strong of a word. It sticks to you though. It sticks to you. And there's like in my head, I have a real tangible fear of this. There's like some tripwire that I don't want to cross.

Yeah. I don't know what's on the other side, but I don't like how close I'm getting. And it affects my moods. I have to like go through this process of either working out or watching something like friends or something to kind of like cleanse. Yep, yep. What do you feel this sounds like you do?

And then how do you deal with it? I hugely feel it. And it's something I think that like the older I get, the more acutely aware of it I am. And so I have a handful of things that I do to kind of take the edge off and to shed it a little bit, which is when I wake up in the morning, one of the first things I do, is read this, you know, daily calendar of Buddhist wisdom. And or right before I go to sleep, I make sure that I'm putting some input that's positive and toward the light. So I always bookend my day with that.

And before I start messing with the phone or returning emails or, you know, grinding on whatever it is, I put in a little bit of the light to kind of compensate for the darkness. And then I do a lot of, you know, I meditate twice a day. I do yoga. I go running. I kind of, you have to shed it. And, I mean, imagine how much more intense it is for the folks that are out there, you know, actually working these murder investigations.

Like, you talk about sticking to you. It's amazing to me the like secondhand trauma or reporters that are out there or, you know, war journalists. So ours, it's a little bit removed. But it is your consciousness. And I think the more you marinate in that, you have to find something that balances to takes the edge off. and puts the light in. It's true. It's true.

You talk about the cops and the first responders and these folks that victims, I mean, one of the, one of Ramirez's, one of the women survived, which is just crazy. Yeah. Well, and with, you know, when doing docs, right, you're dealing with the real stuff where I remember literally as like boxes would show up at the office. and it's, you know, the actual crime scene photos, hundreds, if not thousands of them, of what it looked like at the time. And they're shot in, you know, five by sevens or four by sixes or what they are. And the tactile present nature or sitting in the edit bay where you're looking at that. And it's, you have to immerse yourself and marinate fully in a story, I think, to get at the heart of it.

But at the same time, you do have. to put it down and walk away from it. I mean, it was the same thing as we're doing Waco and David Koresh on this new series. It's like, you know, you're you're entering into this weird world of God and guns and kind of violence and death and you have to walk back out, but you have to be, your heart has to be fully in it, to be fully empathetic to tell these stories in a nuanced and thoughtful way, but you don't want to drown in it. Yeah, yeah. It's, That's a good way to put it. You don't want to drown in it.

You need to balance it. You talk about inputting the light. I think about how do I be the light? I heard somewhere and it just stuck with me. It's like, okay, if I can put my head there, that will help. And I find it does help. And I do similar things too at night. I do the same.

So I have a different come-down experience, but it is necessary. You referenced the new series, Waco. I believe the trailer was dropped today, correct? Yeah, trailer dropped today on Rolling Stone. I think it's out wide now, but Rolling Stone was gracious enough. And, you know, as a music fan, it's a cool place to have it drop. So I was glad to have it out there. Nice.

And the series comes out March 22nd. Is that right? Yes, March 22. It drops on Netflix. Awesome. And, okay, so Waco, American Apocalypse. I saw the trailer. It looks incredible for anyone listening.

Make sure you go watch that. make sure you add it to your list on Netflix. But Tiller, tell us about this series. It was a really fascinating deep dive. When I first came to it, I came to it with trepidation because I felt like, well, you know, we're coming up on the 30th anniversary. This story has been told.

It was told, you know, on the daily news and the papers. It's been told countless times, you know, is there anything new here for me to explore? And what happened was these producers that I work with had gotten hold of this amazing footage that had been shot inside the FBI's hostage negotiation room. And what had happened was they, when the FBI rolled up, they thought, oh, this will be done in a couple of days. We'll shoot some video. It'll be a training tool in Quantico. And, you know, away we go.

It'll be a useful training tool. Well, obviously, what happened happened, you know, this massive gunfight that was biggest gunfight on American soil since the... the Civil War leads to this 51-day siege and this horrifying fire that happens live on national television. But that those tapes that had been shot inside of the hostage negotiators doing what they do had never seen the light a day. And then the deeper I got, the more of this kind of material there was, whether it's the snipers outside the compound.

And the weird, fascinating thing for me was all of these people, no matter who they were, were, were not who I expected them to be. You know, the sniper was actually a poet. The FBI's hostage negotiator actually had massive criticism for the way the FBI had handle it. The last child out, who was nine years old and had her whole life kind of shattered with the death of her family, refused to be defined by that. And so it was this deeply humanist exploration and experience, that has all these kind of explosive topics swirling around it. So it was really hard and really, and really fascinating and moving to make.

I love that. I love that your immediate approach is like, well, this has been done. How do I find a way to tell it in a way that hasn't been done? And I love that you're taking these characters and you're presenting characters that, you know, if this is the made-for-TV version of this, it'd be, you know, the tobacco-chewing sniper who's just out of the,

the knuckle-dragger. Yeah, exactly. And that isn't life. Life is always full of nuance in these interesting contrasts. And I think that's part of what makes your filmmaking so damn interesting is your ability to go there. Did you feel, because your Dallas connection, did you feel like you had to tell this story in someone? I mean, being so close to Waco? Well, it definitely, you know, I find myself now waiting into these stories that were in some way defining of my.

youth, you know, that this was the biggest new story in the world, dominating absolutely everything. And so on the one hand, it's very humbling to think like, okay, I'm now the person that's going to wade into the story and try to tell the definitive version of it or a nuanced version of it that's never been done before. And on the other hand, it feels like it's this great responsibility to really mind those, you know, the nuanced corners of it and to, you know, to do it in a way that's loving and deep and complicated. Because I think that's a lot of what we're, you know, have lost in the culture is everything is nuanced, but it feels like America in particular right now, everybody's screaming and nobody's listening. And so being able to kind of hold the tension of the opposites, you know, as Young says, I think is, is a super important, you know, outlook and approach as an artist.

Agreed. Agreed. And thankfully, you're out there doing it in this medium better than anyone else. What else? Can you talk about what's next that you're working on before we split here? You know, we've got another series that's dropping on Netflix that a brilliant director that I brought in to work on. It will be premiering like three or four weeks, and I can't quite tell you the name of it. But three or four weeks after Waco, look for another one, which is all. also kind of an iconic 10-year anniversary, which you'll be seeing coming down the line as soon as they announce it. Nice. Busy guy, man. You're like a shark. You don't stop. Just trying to keep, just trying to keep breathing and keep working, man, just like you. I love it, man. Hey, dude, thank you so

much for coming on and talking to me. I know how busy you are, and I really, really appreciate it. I always love talking to you. So yeah, man, just want to say thanks. Everyone out there, he's Tiller-Russell. make sure you go to your Netflix and you click that little add to my list button for for waco American Apocalypse and watch Nightstocker if you haven't already and yeah Google the 7-5 because that might be my favorite of Tiller's amazing films. Thanks dude I appreciate it. Thank you for having me buddy. Keep making great work. You as well. I'll talk to you soon. Bye. Be good. All right guys, that was my interview with Tiller Russell. I hope you liked it. more after party right after this.

Okay. All right. My recommendations this week, they're going to be short and they're going to be sweet. I recommend you all go watch Tiller Russell's films. The Nightstocker on Netflix is incredible.

A massive hit. It's a series. It's a docu-series. It's a, like I said, a huge hit. Markets don't live people. Lots of people watch this True Crime documentary series

because it is incredible. So go watch Tiller's The Nightstocker. Watch Tiller's other doc, The 7-5 about corrupt New York city cops in the 90s. This, in all seriousness, and I thought this way before I knew Tiller, this might be my favorite documentary of all time. It is so fucking good, the 7-5.

I recommend you listen to ACDC, loud, Bond Scott era ACDC. If you haven't heard Poweridge, you've seen it, you just, you're like, I don't know, man, I'm going to let there be rock guy. You know, I like high voltage or, or, you know, I'm into the Brian Johnson stuff. If you haven't given powerage, it's due as an album from start to finish. You are missing out on life. Seriously. We're supposed to embrace life.

We're supposed to be active participants in this life. And I'm telling you, powerage is the ACDC album. Even better than let there be rock. Fight me. I know you're out there. I know all of you disagree pretty much. Or you're just like, what the fuck is even power. I don't even know what that is.

Trust me, I love this record so much. I have, like, gone to bed at night and closed my eyes and just without even listening to the record, just fantasizing that I'm in some small dingy rock club in 1978, and I somehow happened upon ACDC playing a small show just doing this album, start to finish. It is so good. There aren't any huge ACDC hits on it. I think riffraff, right, might be the closest thing to a hit on that album. But it's just, oh, and talk about storytelling.

Next level, Bond Scott, at the peak of his power is so good. So, yeah, listen to ACDC, but specifically, I'm recommending that you listen to Poweridge. And I'm recommending you go and you watch some NASCAR races. More Rex next week, coming at you a little differently this week with the interview in this podcast episode. But I do want to tell you real quick before we jump into the next segment. here on YouTube.

I'm recommending that you go to YouTube. There's some music storytelling there. The YouTube Discraceland channel. Last week, we featured the story of James Brown at the Boston Garden in 1968. An incredible story. You can see that video at YouTube.com slash at Disgraceland Pod.

You're not going to hear that in the podcast. You're not going to get that in your RSS feed. You know, you're not going to have my image, my video, all the visuals we do for this thing. You aren't going to come through the podcast machine. You got to go to YouTube. YouTube.com slash at Disgraceland Pod to get this story. This week on that YouTube channel, we have the real story of the cocaine bear.

Yes, that cocaine bear, the one that the movie is based on, the real story about that Coke eating bear and a legendary Coke snorting country music outlaw. But again, that one too, just like the James Brown one and everything we do over at YouTube. It's only available on YouTube. You got to go subscribe over there. And it's free. When I say subscribe, I just mean you hit the sub button. That's it.

YouTube.com slash at Disgracelam pod. Next week in your disgrace land podcast feed, Mac Miller, but for now, me reading the phone book. From Augusta, Wisconsin in 1954, Bates, Clifford, FLLL Clark, 88-W, Bock, Augusta, Augusta, 244-W, Becker, Ralph, 3 Aleva, Clegghorn, 14, F-23. Belke.

Clarence. 1-Strum. Clegghorn. 25-5-23. Belke. Emma. Clegghorn. 6-F-1-3.

Bennett. Cecil. Augusta. 236. Burgesson. Eleanor. Augusta. 239-M.

Bethke. Charles. Two Fairchild. Augusta. 9. F5. Bill and Jack's Tavern. Augusta.

17. Bittner, J. mine, Reverend. F.L. Clark, dash 16. Blakely, Lynn. FLL Clark, dash 57-R2.

Quit talking and start mixing.