DISGRACELAND - Bonus Episode: The Del Fuegos, Charles Starkweather, and Writer Warren Zanes Talks Bruce Springsteen's "Nebraska"

Episode Date: May 18, 2023

Best-selling author and former guitarist of the Del Fuegos Warren Zanes talks with Jake about interviewing the Boss for his new book, Deliver Me from Nowhere: The Making of Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska, touring with the Del Fuegos in the '80s, and more. A brand new Disgraceland episode on Justin Bieber comes out next Tuesday and a Badlands episode on James Dean comes out next Wednesday. Leave your own message for Jake to reply to at 617-906-6638 or on socials @disgracelandpod and come join the After Party.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is exactly right. Double Elvis. Hey, discos. Need a little more disgrace land in your life? Just a touch to get you through. Yeah, me too. This is the podcast that comes after the podcast. Welcome to Disgraceland, the After Party.

Welcome to the Disgraceland bonus episode. A little thing we like to call the after party. This is the show after the show, the party after the party, the bridge to get you from one full episode of Disgraceland to the other, the backyard to dig into the dirt. On this episode, we are talking about Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska, the source and inspiration for the latest episode of Disgraceland. And we are speaking with best-selling author Warren Zanes

about his new book on Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska entitled, Deliver Me from Nowhere. And of course, we get into a few of your boss-oriented questions for Warren, so discos, let's get into it. All right, welcome to a special edition of The Disgraceans. After Party bonus episode. We got an interview for you today. I'm very excited about this.

Don't do a lot of interviews. We do some, you know, get a good track record. It's something, you know, 50% of the time I want to do interviews, the other 50% of the time I don't want to do them. But I really wanted to interview Warren Zanes. When I started researching the Bruce Springsteen episode of Disgraceland, you know, you go through your process of research. You start to look at, you know, what are the books out there that have been written on whatever the subject is,

what are the documentaries, what are all the source materials, you start to get a good list going of stuff you're going to devour before you start writing. Excuse me, before you start outlining and writing after that. And, you know, as I was in that process, I came upon, deliver me from nowhere, the book on Bruce Springsteen. The only problem was it wasn't written yet. So I was like, fuck, this is perfect, man.

In a way, I'm glad it wasn't written yet because it would have been almost like too strong of a document, too strong of an influence on what I wanted to do for this episode. You know, I've long wanted to do a Bruce Springsteen episode, but there's no real true crime in his history. However, in his songs, there's a treasure trove of true crime, specifically on Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska. And it was really interesting,

me because, you know, there are the, there are songs on Nebraska. First of all, all the characters on Nebraska are sort of like on the margins and they're, they're kind of neither here nor there. They're, they're transient. They're, they're in motion. They're going from good to bad. They're all over the place. But they're fictional characters and some of them are nonfiction. And I thought, wow, wouldn't it be cool if I could find some, some way to thread those characters together. So that's what I tried doing. I look specifically at the characters in Nebraska, the song Nebraska that's on Nebraska, the song Atlantic City, Johnny 99, Highway Patrolman, and I think those are the ones, yeah, those are the ones I touch upon. And then there's sort of this,

this fictional narrator that stems from, it's sort of a, from a composite of Bruce's characters on the album. He's kind of, he's kind of, he's, He's a Mr. State Trooper. He's all over the place. But he's the thread that pulls all these guys together for me. And this was a really fun way to do an episode. It was a fun way to think about writing the episode. It was a fun way to explore the creator of these characters

to explore Bruce Springsteen. And it was a really fun way to fuck with the music. Because the sounds of the album Nebraska, which was originally, as I talked about, intended to be a demo for what became born. in the USA. The sound of that album is so specific. So we were really able to take that specificity of sound and fuck with it in a cool way. It's so minimal and it's it's it's so analog and kind of digital at the same time with this weird synth stuff on there. So it was really fun to fuck with the

music and I knew I knew our guy our guys Brian and Matt would just crush it. So I'm really proud of this episode. I'm really fascinated with this record. I think in the final analysis right now from where I sit, that Nebraska is Springsteen's best album. I think it's his most, how do I say this? Economic, most forceful, it has a point of view

that is completely consistent both and what it's trying to say and in how it says it. There's no filler on this album. It's a shame. It's not meant to be a diss that his band isn't on it. I'm not trying to shit on the East Street band or any of the musicians who have played on Bruce's other albums. I just think it's a fully realized piece of art.

You know, when everything's said and done three, four hundred years from now, when we're all long gone and there's no one to defend it, I think this record will stand on its own amongst, you know, born in the USA and born to run and greetings from Asbury Park or whichever album you want to throw in comparison to it. Nebraska to me is the one. So with all that said, take a quick break, come back in a minute with Mr. Warren Zanes, literally the guy who wrote the book on Nebraska, and I can't wait for you guys to hear from him.

One sec. Warren Zanes, welcome to the disgraceland after-party bonus episode. Warren, I'm going to put you on the spot right away, is Nebraska Bruce Springsteen's best album. Oh, wow, you are putting me on the spot. I'm not sure, because it depends on the day. I was a Bruce fan from way back. I'm the youngest of three,

so a lot of records came down the waterfall that older siblings send music down. And, you know, some days it's the Wild, the Innocent and the East Street shuffle. Some days it's Western Stars. I'd say this about Nebraska. There are more days when it's Nebraska than any other record. Yeah, I feel that way as well,

even though you need to be in the right state of mind to listen to this album. Or you need to be in the wrong state of mind. That as well. That'll work too. That'll work too. As I mentioned at the top of the show, I'm talking to Warren Zanes, his book, Deliver Me from Nowhere.

Warren literally wrote the book on Nebraska. It's a book that's devoted to Springsteen's album, Nebraska. Warren, I'm about halfway through it. It is truly great. I love it. I love your writing. I'm kind of, I read so much music literature for work, for researching these episodes, that I get kind of snobbish about it.

And I find myself unable to stop turning. the pages and I'm just really fucking impressed man congratulations for a small it's great. Thank you so much Jake that that that means a lot this is this is definitely a project where I really felt myself in there and that's not to say I'm in the pages at an explicit level but you know it's stories of troubled people and I'm still trying to figure out the nature of my own troubles. So this thing just resonates for me and has for 40 years. That's amazing to hear. How do you find yourself at this point in your life where, you know, this goes from the idea of, you know, I'm sure, you know, wouldn't it be great to write a book about Springsteen's Nebraska,

to actually doing it with or at sometimes without Bruce's involvement? I don't even know what the full involvement was. If you can explain sort of how this came to be, and how the relationship with Bruce worked and what that dynamic was over the course of putting the book together. Yeah. First, I would say it wouldn't be the same book without his participation. The way he came into these interviews and having read lots of them over the years, I'd say it's pretty consistent with the way he's always done it. He doesn't show up halfway. He's not checking his phone. He's really in the room.

And if there's a question that he doesn't have an answer for, he'll come back with a question of his own. And the kind of vulnerability that he displays makes for a powerful interview. So couldn't have done it without him. But the process, there's the personal dimension that I already referred to. I just had these questions about my own connection to this record. Why for so many years did this feel like my family album? And, you know, it's obviously, it's a troubled family, and I felt like I fit right in. I wanted to know more about why.

I also wanted to know why someone who had just had their first top, you know, number one album and first top 10 single would make such a crazy career decision. And I felt like I didn't know enough. So those were the two things that really compelled me. The process was, I'd been doing some work with the director, Tom Zimney, who does a lot with Bruce. And I'd met John Landau through Tom Zimney's Elvis documentary, The Searcher. Right.

And I interviewed John for some related product. And John knew me from that. And so Tom passed along a very short proposal. And then John said, yeah, from the little I know, I can support this. And so John then became my first key interview. and at the end of our first day together, he said, you know, I don't tell Bruce what to do, but I will tell him I had a good time with you today,

and I think he might have a good time with you too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's pretty high praise coming from Springsteen's John Lando, longtime collaborator, manager and producer of the boss himself. That's, I imagine that greased the skids there a little bit. did it work where you were able to just you know send Bruce questions or you know I saw that I saw that piece that CBS News did on you guys

where you're there in the room together which God I mean talk about goose bump moments you know it's yeah were you able to just you know hit him up and be like hey you know what was that guitar you're using on that track or you know how did you get that weird you know harpsichord sound was it like that or was it all kind of like this was like most of it comes from one

long, a day session. And so I had, I knew my questions. I knew the general arc that I felt was right for this story. I also knew he was going to change that art to some degree. But it was, it was in a long session. When you talk about that room, one of the striking things about working with him is his kind of sophistication and understanding material history. So when we walked in that room together, we were in a material place.

We were in a space where something happened. And he knew I was having an experience, having been working on this book for two years. And we walk in, and it's still the orange. shag carpets. It was just reverberating for me. But in the time of the interviews, when we were talking about his childhood and growing up in his parents' home for the first five or six years of his life, you know, it's a place of unprocessed grieving. His Aunt Virginia had died at age six, and he was the first grandchild. And in their living room, They were very poor.

It was a house that was kind of in the process of decomposing the way he describes it. But in the living room over the TV, it was this portrait of his Aunt Virginia who had died. And right in the midst of the interview, he said, we're talking about that portrait. And he says, I've got it. That's the one thing I've got. Let me get it. And he sets it up for the rest of the interview. it's me here, Bruce there, Aunt Virginia there.

And same thing with when I'm asking about the equipment he used. What guitar did you use? He's like, it's the J200. Let me go get that. And he set these things up around us. And I think that's both his generosity and that's his sophistication in understanding, you know, I'm in a book project. How can I best help this person write?

write this book. And it's to set up these objects that have that aura and that vibration. And this is not every interviewist like this. It's deep stuff. And so would the book be the same without him? Absolutely not. Amazing. Such trust that he had in you. And I don't know if I heard this or I read it or if I made it up or if I'm making it up. But when you do, did the book, the petty book, I heard the story was he contacted you or you guys ended up in a conversation and he felt that if he wasn't involved in the book, you could write a more honest portrayal of him. And I think that's so fucking rock and roll if that's true. And if it is true, Bruce must have known that and picked up on it, correct? Well, I don't know about that. Because

that, you know, when I go in on a project, I don't talk about another one. If there are any questions about it, I'll certainly answer them. But I'm all in Nebraska when I go in on that. But let me tell you about Petty. And this is, this really tells you something about how smart Tom Petty was. We'd been doing a few projects. So he read my Dusty and Memphis book. And I kind of got an email out of nowhere saying Tom would like to take you to dinner. I was more a graduate student. I was looking at becoming a professor. I get this email, Tom wants to take you out to dinner. We had dinner and he said at the end of it, you know, I often don't know where songs come from,

but I wrote one after I read your book and I want you to come back to the house and listen to it. Now, I totally wasn't expecting that. So he comes back and he plays me this song down south from the highway companion record. And that started this relationship. We'd toured with him back in the 80s. But this was something new. He was seeing me as a writer before I had the courage to see myself as one. Unreal.

Then I interviewed for the Peter Bogdanovich movie. And then I did a companion book. I edited a companion book for that movie. So by the time he came to me about a bio, We had some history. But we were walking out to my car and he was like, you know, what would you think about a bio? And I was like, you know, that's, you know, yeah. I mean, yeah, I love this guy.

And he said, here's the deal. And he mapped it out in like 45 seconds. It's your book. I give you full participation. If you want to interview someone, I'll go ask them. If they don't want to do it, that's their business. It's not an authorized biography. Because any time you see authorized, it just means it's bullshit.

So right. Yeah. Like he was total, and then he just asked to be able to read a manuscript before it goes to publication and respond to things he felt he needed to respond to, but he wasn't going to ask me to change anything. Wow. Those were the terms. And when I talked about Nebraska with John Landau,

I said, hey, just so you know, here's how Tom Petty mapped it out. And John said, that sounds like a good way to go. So there was Tom kind of in the room. And we did it the same. way. And, you know, I feel really lucky and it matters to be trusted to say what I feel needs to be said as a fan and someone who loves this stuff. And as someone who's living, you know, a writer, a kind of an intellectual life in addition to being a fan, I need the room to be able to say something that might not

feel great on their side, but they still recognize as truth. Right, right. Well said. Well said. And you can feel that. I read the petty book a while ago. I'm obviously in the Springsteen book. Now you can feel it in those pages. You can feel the fan in you speaking, but also as an intellectual. And the writing is so good. And there's, I want to read you something here. This is a good jumping off point here. This is a tiny excerpt from the book. and I just love this. I love the economy and the writing, and I love it because it's subject matter

that I know like the back of my hand, yet you put it in a way that makes me even more interested and want to keep reading. You say, Nebraska was a cave painting in the age of photography. You had to crawl underground and through a few tight spaces to get at it. Nebraska's production involved the absence of production.

There's no producer credit on the album jacket because there was no production short of the act of saying, just put out the demo, and not everyone involved agrees who said that first. It's great, man. Thank you. It's so damn good. Now, back to the fan thing here, you know, I know you, first and foremost, you and your brother from the Del Fuego's. And, you know, I'm younger than you, but I grew up, I was a kid.

And I remember, so I grew up west of Boston in a town called Clinton, Massachusetts. It's about 35 miles west of Boston. And my girlfriend in junior high, she lived on this big hill in town. And if you were at her house and you had the radio on FNX, you could get it in, where you couldn't get it in pretty much anywhere else in town that I had access to. And I would go up there, you know, and everyone's kind of, you know, smoking cigarettes and playing, spin the bottle. And I'm tuning in her radio.

And that's how I first heard the Del Fuego's. And sooner or not, you know, I had something I could talk to my dad. dad about, you know, and it was I still want you, which is off of Boston Mass. And I don't remember what year that was. Years later, I'm working in Boston as a college student, and I'm with this old salty furniture moving dude who I still know and love, this guy, Joe Allenby. And he tells me the story. Now I'm certain this is just rock and roll myth and I've got it wrong. Your book kind of told me that I had it wrong. But, you know, I think we're driving somewhere. We're talking about the Del Fuego's. And he goes, yeah, there's a story where

They were on tour one night back in the day, and they're in the diner. They're in this diner on the road somewhere, you know, on the eastern seaboard. And Springsteen walks in. And he looks at him and he goes, you guys look like you're in a rock and roll band. I just thought, that's the greatest compliment. Then I read your book and I'm like, that story's total bullshit. So why don't you tell the real story, if you will, about meeting Bruce Springsteen while you were a young kid in the Delphuegos? Yeah.

You know, it's really funny. The Del Flago's, you know, history doesn't remember that band particularly well. And I say, fair enough. But even before I joined, like Sam Phillips, Sam Phillips of Sun Records, who first recorded Elvis, in a Rolling Stone interview, he mentioned the band. Like, he was interested in this band that Del Fuego. Then, and I'm telling you, there was one single out before I joined the band. Robert Plant does a Rolling Stone interview.

He mentions the Del Fuego's. Amazing. I wasn't even sure who Robert Plant was. So there is a little bit of a charmed quality that went for a little bit. And then we blew up our own house. But Bruce coming and playing on stage with us. was part of this. And we were out on one of our first tours with our first album out, the longest day. And we were playing in Greensboro, North Carolina. And as it turned out, the East Street band had a night off.

And we're in our dressing room at the rhinoceros club. It's 150-seater that's about half full. And Nils Lofgren comes into our dressing room. And that was a thing. thrill. And we were, you know, we didn't really miss a beat before we said, hey, would you jump up on stage? And then it was just minutes later that Springsteen comes in. And next thing you know, we're on stage. And we did hang on Sloopy and stand by me with him. And I remember turning around to my amplifier and I turned it all the way down. Not just like down to three. I turned it to zero. Because I had some sense of I want, I don't want to participate. I want to watch this go down. Like I don't have a memory of this. And there are so many guitars on stage already. It didn't matter.

and I really, I like watched it. And I watched that room. And there was so much joy in that room. Like Springsteen, however big he was in that moment, he was always a he's one of us kind of artist. And so the people there were, they were at a spiritual event. And I was seeing them and I was seeing Bruce.

And, you know, I say in the book for the next two years, every interview, the first question was, what was it like to play with Bruce Springsteen? I waited until question four. So there we go. Apologies. No, but it was, look, it was remarkable. You know, and then that tour, we end up out in L.A. and that was when we met Petty for the first time. You know, it was just like they were lining up our heroes. Amazing. Amazing. So cool.

So cool. You talk about in the book, and this is one thing I whiffed on in my episode on Nebraska. You talk about punk rock influence, specifically Alan Vega and suicide, which not really a punk rock band, but part of that whole scene, that influence on Nebraska, the album. and it makes so much sense, and you can hear how the album goes on to influence a whole other generation of punk and hardcore kids like myself. You know, in this sort of latest examination

for me of the album, I really dug into some of the other influences that if you wouldn't mind, I wouldn't mind you talking about a little bit, Flannery O'Connor specifically, which I found fascinating. I actually went and dug out her, her prayer journal and read that afterwards.

Terrence Malick, obviously, Night of the Hunter, some of these sort of dark cultural influences that are out there that Bruce manages to pull together and generate this amazing work. Yeah, I mean, such an interesting collection of people. Flannery O'Connor, I feel like they only made one of, one Flannery O'Connor at the writer factory. You know, she traveled in a school of one. And so much tension between her Catholicism

and the desperation that you found in her stories. And so in that way, she was this kind of perfect model for Springsteen. Like, can you let it go this dark? Can you remove the sliver of redemption that he often put in there? Because we often want it. But I think one of the lessons of Flannery O'Connor is it can go completely dark and the hope can be somewhere outside the work.

The hope can be in the fact that there's a connection between the writer and the reader. It doesn't always have to be in the context. And I think that's a profound lesson because I never went away from Nebraska saying this record's telling me to end it all. I felt like this record was telling me to listen to it again. So there was some connection between me and his voices, a writer, between me and the characters.

So Flannery O'Connor, I feel the same thing. But it's so, you know, the book, his first contact was, you know, John Landau's wife gave Bruce a collection of stories, and he just latched onto it. Terrence Malick as an influence is equally interesting to me because he's about as mysterious as a well-known film director could be. He really, like, disappeared after.

Days of Heaven, which was the movie after Badlands, if I have it right. So Springsteen almost intuitively is finding these creators who are outside of any norms. And kind of, I wouldn't say that they're lost, but they're marginal in really unique ways. And he's in a marginal moment in his life and in his art and just intuitively grabs these. So the book really needed to go into those influences. And I listened to your show talking about Starkweather. And that's such a centerpiece. You know, I feel like you did a great job getting into the,

strangeness of what Springsteen's connecting with. And one point I really tried to make in the book is that Starkweather as a serial murder was the first television serial murderer. You know, television is new.

And, you know, the way people thought about the moving image and television, they thought of stars. And you rightly show Starkweather kind of packaging himself as a star because that was the reference point. They didn't think of television as a place where you got your news so much. It was still newspapers. Right, right, right, right. Yeah. This is the thing you do in your book too where you kind of contradict my take on Starkweather. And I think you're right where I'm coming. I wasn't there,

clearly and I and I and I just kind of swallowed the sort of historical narrative as it is that he was this James Dean figure and he was but when you really look at him he's not and there and he he's you you rightly point that out that he's he like James Dean is a fucking like just he's he's he's supernova you can't you can't fuck with how good looking charismatic that guy is Charlie Starkweather there's like something they cut out of scrap metal version of James Dean. But I think the more important piece there is that the country kind of projects onto him this James Dean thing. And he's there to take it and create this thing. And you're right, he's out on the margins.

Flannery O'Connor's characters are out on the margins. Springsteen's out on the margins and he's pulling them all together. Yeah. Well, that's why I went into the Springsteen interview, going, Raging Bull had to have mattered for Nebraska. And it was a really productive moment of me being completely wrong, but Springsteen in telling me why I was wrong, helping me to understand that those other influences on the Nebraska project.

Like he didn't want the things that were so, that hit so directly. And Raging Bull did. It was this, it was recognized as a triumph, whereas Badlands kind of, you know, kind of came in the art house and, you know, went away and so did the director. And that was the stuff that mattered to Springsteen right then. Amazing. All right, we're going to take a quick break. Come back. Warren, if you're cool with it, we'll come back.

And I got a couple questions from some little. listeners that I can ask you. Yeah. Down with that? All right. All right. So, Warren, I do this thing where I have people call in 617-906-66-66-3-8. They send me voicemails.

They text me all in relation to the episodes that were doing the subject matter. I was teasing out your book in advance of this interview on some of these bonus episodes. Got a couple texts. I'm going to hit you with them if you're cool with that. You down? Yeah. All right. Cool.

First one from DiscoGB in the 3233. Area Code says, quote, you write about Bruce's influence on the Delphoago's in your book. What are some of words, sorry, this is their writing, what are some of yours and your bandmates' favorite Bruce songs from back in the day? You know, I'm like many people that I love, you know, racing in the streets. I have never tired of that. I love back streets. I love Rosalita.

I loved a tunnel of love when it came. And again, some days it's growing up. When I got Western stars, I was really excited because I felt this is the tunnel of love of this moment. The Seeger Sessions felt like a guy who was rediscovering being in a band. So it depends what I'm looking for. But if I were to pick a favorite song today, you know, I'm going to say it's Highway Patrolman. Highway Patrolman just kills me.

And, you know, part of it is, you know, when I was in the Del Fuego's, it was with my brother. And Highway Patrolman, I remember talking to Dave Alvin about Highway Patrolman, and Dave was in the blasters with his brother Phil. And as a brother story, you know, when they're both dancing with Maria, there's something going on in the exchange between brothers that is so beyond words. it's like Springsteen understood this brother experience better than the brothers did. You know, you listen to it and it's like, man, he's putting his finger on something that I couldn't even.

Yeah. And I just, when he'll, you know, lets his brother go at the end, and I, to me, it's, you know, a couple things are happening. It's like he loves him so much that he's going to let him go. And this is bigger than the law. But the other thing is he's really like releasing him so he can carry on with his life. And that's so complicated. Right.

I mean, either of those two elements are complicated. to have them both happening at the same time. It's like, that is some sophisticated writing. Yeah, the subtext and the nuance is just, it's heavy. There's a reason we keep going back to it. You know, it's over and over. But then in his note to John Landau, when he first gave him the recordings on that cassette tape,

he was like, I'm not sure if this is any good. Like that to, like, a lot. of times when really great artists get inside of a work of art, the tradeoff is they can't see it anymore. They can make it, but they can't see it to know you just wrote a monster. Yeah, yeah. It is a monster. I have a question about that song. Highway Patrolman, dancing with Maria while the band played Night at the John. Flood. Is that a real, that's not a real song, right? That's sort of this traditional. It's not a real song unless I got it wrong, but the beauty is like, he comes up with his title, and damn it,

if we don't know that song. Exactly. Exactly. My point. It's just so good. Yeah, totally. Like, it's so something you wouldn't dance to that it's got to exist. I mean, he just pulls off these little magic tricks. Yeah, yeah. All right, let's do another one here. Aiki, breaky, Dave from the 747 text. Ask Warren, Petty Springsteen, who's next? Who's next?

Well, I'll tell you, I'm on my fifth book. A lot of people don't know this, but I'm on my fifth book working with Garth Brooks on his series of coffee table books and kind of go through his career. And it's, you know, I came in just to help. And it was Garth who gave me, I wasn't even expecting to see a credit.

And it was the first one came out, Garth Brooks with Warren Zanes. And from day one, it's direct artist-to-artist contact. And he's, I've learned more than I can tell you from him, you know, about songwriting, about record production, about live performance, about raising children, about basketball. You know, like, it goes on and on. And so what's the common thread, Tom Petty, Bruce Springsteen, Garth Brooks?

The common thread is the opportunity to hear them talk about their art. So that's that for me, like, I'm spoiled sick. All I know is whatever's coming next is I need them there. Because that's where I just want to keep learning. And I've learned a lot from all three. And, you know, I went and. really sat at Jonathan Richmond's feet saying, Jonathan, let me write a book.

And, you know, everybody knows, like, Jonathan doesn't want anybody writing a book. And I said, you know, Chuck Prophet sent me. You trust Chuck. I said, you know, if I have to get you to build a pizza oven in my backyard, I'll do it, you know, to get to the book. because he builds pizza ovens when he's, yeah, when he's not on the road. I was like, you know, we'll build a massive pizza oven in my backyard, like whatever it takes.

But I know your body is just stuffed with stories and the world needs to understand more about you. And I think he already knew in his head like, I'm not building this guy of pizza oven. I'm not talking to this guy. I got pizza pizza ovens to make All right All right So Garth

I just show my son My nine year old Coincidentally because we were watching the Academy of Country Music Awards the other night and Garth was hosting So my nine year old was like

Who's this guy? So I showed him The video for Friends in Low Places Incredible song Yeah I feel like You know Sort of like The Rock guys don't give

Garth Brooks the credit That he deserves He is a beast Of a performer That song He wrote that song, right? I'm guessing you were. No, he did not.

Incredible song. And just like, you know, instantly impactful for anyone of any age. My 90-year-old was just like, I'm in. And he's got good taste. He's into really good stuff. He was like, I want to know more about this guy. So I thought that was very cool.

He's got, Garth has a lot that he has written that are those, I'm in. You know, it's very direct. But he's also, So look, his studio, it was called Jack's Tracks. Now it's called Allentown after his producer, Alan Reynolds. But Jack's Tracks was Cowboy Jack Clement, who came from Sun in Memphis and then, you know, went over to Nashville. Cowboy Jack was one of the great, you know, vigilante characters of country music.

And Garth Cut's Records live there. It's, you know, it's, he makes them like they used to make them. And I think a lot of people miss that part too, because he's not, he's not a retro act by any stretch. But that's the way he, it's like bring in those class A players. And let's have, let's have a level of musicianship that allows me to cut my vocal live and we can keep all this stuff and we can feel these humans playing together. And I just, I love that still. I mean, I'm fine with things being on the grid. There's some music that's on the grid that I love. But the idea of an artist with a career is, you know, I love the long careers. I love the human beings in the room.

I love mistakes. You know, Nebraska is just the greatest accident ever, released, you know. It's the only record Springsteen released as an official release that when he made it, he didn't know he was making an official release. And man, it's such a gift. I've got a New York Times op-ed coming at the end of this week. It really is I'm getting right up on the pulpit and saying

Bruce gave us all a gift here and let's all go out and make some mistakes. Yeah. Yeah, I love that. I love that. So that's the Times op-ed is coming this week. What else you got cooking before we split here? You're traveling at all? You're doing any appearances? You know, I've done some.

I did, you know, a few with musicians. I'm in a band called Rogue Oliphant. Paul Muldoon, the poet, put a band together. Really cool. The players from Rogue Olophant were my backing band. And then I had Laura Cantrell and Steve Earle and James Maddock, each playing Nebraska songs. And I would speak in between them,

which to me is the best way to talk about that record. Just talk about the song, set it up, and then get close to the material. And at one of the shows, my sister makes really beautiful marionettes. She made me a marionette. of Starkweather, you know, wearing his penitentiary number. And so he could speak to me from beyond the grave. And I was able to ask him about how he felt about Springsteen's vision of this. And he, you know, he felt like Springsteen and turning it into a first-person story and speaking

as Starkweather, you know, Starkewether. you know stark weather says to me like in that case i felt a little bit more seen um amazing yeah amazing all right warren thank you so much man thank you appreciate this thank you it's a real treat i love the podcast and it's it's cool to be on it thank you so much man that means a lot that means a lot i'm gonna go uh i'm gonna go i'm gonna go climb up that hill find that radio, turn on FMX, and keep searching for those Del Fuego tunes, all right? Thanks, man. All right, dude, thanks again. Good luck to you. Thank you. All right, that was Warren Zanes. How fucking cool was that guy? Amazing. Love that dude. Love that book. Get that book. It's really,

really, really good. Let's do a quick recap. Season 12 of Disgraceland has launched with our episode on Bruce Springsteen. Check that out if you haven't already. Number two in the recap list, Warren Zane's book, Deliver Me from Nowhere, a must read for anyone interested in Springsteen. and or Nebraska go read it if you have not already. Number three, Justin Bieber is up next in Disgraceland. And over in the Badlands feed, we just launched our episode on James Dean. So check that out. Number four, apologies to all of you for not getting to your voicemails this week.

I will double up on them next week's after party. 6179066-6638 to leave me a voicemail or send me a text or at Disgraceland Pod on the socials. Over in the Badlands rap party bonus episode this week, lots of your voicemails being answered there. So make sure you check that out this week. as always. Number five, Bruce Springsteen's Nebraska. I already told you. You know this. It's out. Go listen to it. All right. My moment of bliss, in honor of Mr. Warren Zanes and Mr. Bruce Springsteen, me reading you, the phone book from Nebraska in 1929. Richmond, J. Cement Finisher, H1810, Vera M, student, R1.03, WL, L, Guard, Neb State Penitentiary, Walter T, H4334 St. Paul Ave.

Walter T. and Son. Baker's 1529. Wanda V. R. 1033 N. Witten, U.S. Army, R.1033. G.S. William Helen. Chief Clerk, C.B. and Q. H1431 South 17th. Mary P. and William H. Fern Roads. 229 North 11th

Wilford Minimer Miller and Payne 1622 North 31st Cook See also Cook and cook

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