Do Go On - 114 - The Mouse Universe Experiments

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey everybody, Jess and Dave, just jumping in really quickly at the top here to make sure that you are across all the details for our upcoming Christmas show. That's right, we are doing a live show in Melbourne Saturday December the 2nd, 2023, our final podcast of the year, our Christmas special. It's downstairs at Morris House, which usually be called the European beer cafe. On Saturday December the 2nd, 2023 at 4.30pm, come along, come one, come all, and get tickets at dogoonpod.com. Are you working way too hard for way too little?

Starting point is 00:00:33 There's never been a better time to consider a career in IT. You could enjoy a recession resistant career and a rewarding field with plenty of growth opportunities and often flexible work environments. Go to mycomputercareer.edu and take the free career evaluation. You could start your new career in months, not years, take classes online or on campus, and financial aid is available to qualified students, including the GI Bill.

Starting point is 00:00:57 Now is the time, mycomputercareer.edu. This podcast is part of the Planet Broadcasting Network. Visit PlanetBcasting.com for more podcasts from our great mates. Hello and welcome to another episode of Do Go On My Name is Dave Warner Keaton. I'm here with Matt Stewart and Jess Perkins. Hi Dave. Hi Jess. Hi Matt. Hello. Hello. Guys how are we? The last episode for 2017 and what have you it's been?

Starting point is 00:01:39 Yeah and I'm disappointed that we're ending on a low because I am furious at both of you What have we put two things? I made a great joke before and you both ignored me And then I said really I'm getting nothing for that and you continued to ignore me. I didn't want to I didn't want to have to I've already forgotten what the joke was but it was about sucking and porn. Oh, yeah, wasn't yeah I'm making like a suck pun sort of thing. Yeah, I didn't even hear it. No, that's right. You didn't even hear you bring it up again. Oh my God. You say, I ignored you saying keep ignoring me.

Starting point is 00:02:11 Yeah, I know. Because you're so good at just blocking me out. Which is what you wanted. I thought it was really funny. The suckin' cause suckin' you can also suck in porn. And also, I got a haircut and I've either of you noticed. Fuck, you even warned us, you first shared a video.

Starting point is 00:02:28 I told you, when I saw you three days ago, I was getting a haircut, and I've lopped half of it off, it's a significant change. Is it? Oh my God, I am few. This is, I mean, this is what you get for working with boys. Okay, so, observance.

Starting point is 00:02:43 Did you've definitely had a haircut? I've had a haircut. Observation for me. It looks nice. But that's what it did yesterday. It doesn't look that different. That's my question. Oh my god.

Starting point is 00:02:53 If you were saying, lopping off, I would have expected there to be like a visible change. There is a visible, it finishes here, which is at my shoulders and it used to finish at my boobs. Okay. That is a significant change. Anyway, I mean, I don't mean to air our dirty laundry, but I'm just saying that I will be a little hostile this episode, dear listener, and it is not my fault. It will be difficult for you to write a claim now. It is going to be difficult for me to write a claim, yes.

Starting point is 00:03:22 That's right. Well, that's why Matt's growing his beard out, so he can do it. He's a second mermaid. You're a long time before it covers your junk. You can only... Is that a rule? You can only write a clam topless? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:03:35 You don't want to wear a top-righty clam, are you? You have a scene, come on. Even like a clam shell bikini? Oh, now you're on the theme. Yeah, that's true. Would that be inappropriate? It can't have strings though. Oh, yeah, that's mean. Yeah, I'm wearing your uncle. Yeah, it's it's like eating, eating KFC in front of a pan of chickens. It's just mean. That is mean. Especially if you're riding that pan of chickens. Yeah. All at once like a certain chicken. And you're wearing that calf, say on your nipples. Yeah, that's more offensive. So anyway,

Starting point is 00:04:09 chicks on your nips. Well, it's my life story. It's my novel. Chicks on nips. Wow. I will definitely go strong for the fun of dash at the end of the year. Yeah, Merry Christmas, so everyone. I hope you have a very happy new year. We do hope you had a Christmas. We hope you had a Christmas. Unless you don't celebrate. In which case, I hope you didn't have a Christmas

Starting point is 00:04:35 and you had whatever you would like to do on that day. Maybe a sausage. You never sausage? You have a nap. I love naps. You don't have to go to work, probably. Where you are, you know? Oh, unless you're old, Saint John. Saint. Saint John. It's pronounced Saint John. Saint John. Delayany. For what extent are you in all?

Starting point is 00:04:58 Anyway. Very good. Thank you. Anyway, should we, let's do it then. Let's fucking do it. Let's wrap up the year, bitches. Woo! Matt. Woo. There it is. That's the tone we love.

Starting point is 00:05:12 Now, for the final time in 2017, let me try and tell you what this show is. If you have just tuned in for the end of the year, what happens to one of us is it going to report on a topic suggested by a listener and this week for the last time this year it's going to be Matt Stewart. Matt bloody Stewart. Hey that's me that's great because I've got a report right here and a question to kick us off.

Starting point is 00:05:32 Yes. To get us on a topic and this question is the results of what animal experiments of the 56s and 70s led to many people predicting the downfall of humankind. What? Wow. Animal experiments. Can they? Monkeys. predicting the downfall of humankind. What? Wow. Animal experiments. Can they?

Starting point is 00:05:47 Monkeys? Yeah. Is the answer an animal? Rabbits. Yeah, I'll take the animal. It's not monkeys or rabbits. Tigers. It's not tigers.

Starting point is 00:05:57 Elephants. They're thinking smaller than elephants. Rats. It is rats. Yes. I mean, you really leapt small. I mean, nearly everything's small than elephants. Yeah, but That's are yeah, I'm not wrong. So this topic is sort of about John B. Calhoun's

Starting point is 00:06:11 Mouse and rat utopria Experiments and this was suggested by a New Zealander and Blake didn't give us their name Blake What are you bloody hiding? Who are you Blake show yourself show yourself you show yourself you dog. Put your head up, put your hand up. But he did give us his Twitter handle, which is almost like the modern day surname. And then you went there and had his full surname. I didn't even think of that.

Starting point is 00:06:35 Parting in plain sight, I'd be like, yeah, very wild. At Cloud Straff's cat. That's a long surname. Which I don't know. If he's a cat man, maybe it makes sense that he's interested in rat and mice experiments.

Starting point is 00:06:50 Well, maybe he's a cat man. Ooh. I didn't think of that. Maybe it's Cloud Straff's cat. Yeah, it's probably it. Yuck. Babyed up boo. Oh, you think you've got a cat?

Starting point is 00:07:01 Yeah, that's why I thought you said yuck. I think you have poo. You're always thinking of poo, Dave. Yes, I who? Who are we talking about again? There's one of my poo dreams. It's a poo dream. It's like a daydream, but I'm pooing. He also on the new system of the hat,

Starting point is 00:07:18 people can suggest like a thing, a topic, a resource that you can, you're like a link type thing. And he actually sent me through to YouTube documentary, which is like a YouTube exclusive documentary on this channel by Fredrick. I want to say Nudson, KN UDSN. It was really good. It's called Down the Rabbit Hole, Nudson.

Starting point is 00:07:41 And he does a whole series about interesting topics. So I think it's the kind of stuff that Alistair probably would enjoy. I'll link to that in the description. This documentary I watched, yes, it was really, it was really fascinating. It's like a full length. That's half hour. It's funded by YouTube. Is that what you mean by exclusive to? Oh, no, it just, he uploads it to YouTube. It's not like a BBC that's been part of it on there. He's making them for YouTube. He's got a Patreon and stuff. So he's a legit biz, you know, like all of the businesses get hang on to qualify as a biz to you Matt. All you have to do is upload some content to the internet and have a Patreon. Uh-huh. Oh, you fucking biz. Yeah, we're the bloody biz. Yeah, we're a biz.

Starting point is 00:08:24 We're a global corporation. Oh my god am I a CEO? Yeah, you're the co-director. Oh my god Matt's the co-director and I'm the Water boys junior vice-regent Vice Roy personal assistant. Yeah personal assistant chief secretary Personal assistant shopper to the co-director. Yeah, that reminds me. Do you need some new years fashion items? Yeah, and you did not pick up my dry cleaning. Oh, I guess. This is the third week in a row. Well, different department, but I can stretch. I keep shitting myself. I need a lot of things. Which obviously you enjoy, Dave. Yes.

Starting point is 00:09:05 Well, I have been putting lactobus in your coffee to get back at you for being prick bosses. He's the skatman. Boo-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b I do think come on like do the report. I mean, like come on and enjoy the pfft, reference. Come on. I'm gonna take it. It's so good every time. It's gonna be cut. Look, reference. Listen, if that has been cut out,

Starting point is 00:09:31 then please let me know because... Whenever Dave Keltz, why not cut it out? John B. Calhoun would... I won't let it happen because I don't want to cut it. John B. Calhoun was an ethylogist, which could be loosely defined as someone who scientifically studies animal behavior. So how does that spell, sorry?

Starting point is 00:09:52 ETH, O-L-O-G-I-S. So just the ethylogist, right? So I wasn't told you were saying ethylogist or ethogist. So it's fun. So animal behavior. Yes. It's like an animal's sociologist. It was like in 1960s, Dr. Doolittle. Yes. It's like an animal's sociologist. It was like a 1960s doctor do little.

Starting point is 00:10:07 Yes. He likes to walk with the animals, talk with the animals, squawk, flap, sing with the animals. If I am to miss quite the clerics. Yeah, no, that's how he used to say it as well. So you're quoting him. How lovely. Different do little.

Starting point is 00:10:24 Quick back, do your favorite do little. I'm a little do. Nice one. Should have said small. I'm a small piece of shit. Even better. He's a little not very cute. I got it. I got it. Calhoun rose to prominence in the 50s and 60s with his experiments on rats and mice. The topic of today. He was born in Elkton, Tennessee, and also spent some time at school in Nashville. During his high school years,

Starting point is 00:11:00 he took an interest in studying the habits of birds and he published his first article in the journal of the Tennessee Ornithological Society at the age of 15. You nailed Ornithological there. Fuck, not yes. And I saw you kind of build up to it too, like you kind of got ready to say it and you fucking nailed it. Like you're about to jump in a cold pool. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:11:19 That's it, fucking. I'm just going rip off the band-aid. Because it's a word you can say say but when you have to say it it's stressful. Good job. Thank you very much. But also good job to John for getting published at 15. That is a big deal. It's a big deal. After high school, Calhoun studied at the University of Virginia, America's original state, go Wahoo's. We have not researched that fact. People just told us on Twitter, so go Wahoo's No, I did look that up and Northwestern universities go wild cats after graduating he moved around a bit Working at different colleges including the Ohio State University Gobuckers

Starting point is 00:11:56 John's Hopkins University Go Blue Jays and Emory University go Eagles Which is a little bit dull after those other ones to be honest Emory go Eagles, which is a little bit dull after those. I've won, to be honest. Emory, go Eagles. Yeah. The Emory Eagles, that's good. That's very nice. A little bit of Asians fun. Oh, sure. No, you're right.

Starting point is 00:12:13 And when you're bloody right, you're bloody right. But what about the Emory Eagle F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F-F- You know, a little bit of possess. The Eagle for Coss. Yeah! I love it. Thank you. Oh my god, I love it. Dave, do you love it? That was the best improv I've seen from you. You loved it, right?

Starting point is 00:12:33 You've waited for the last week of the year and you're firing on all one cylinder. Mirror! Oh, the thousand noises are bad. Two of the times we made him do. Like, he did have to do nine different guns out. Is there any new ones with the community fun that one's under new yeah that was new was that my one cylinder the one cylinder gun one cylinder gun what a country I assume it's American. At North

Starting point is 00:13:02 western Calhoun met his wife, Edith Gresley. Go Gresley. Who was she? She was studying biology. Well, John Hopkins, he worked on the Rodent Ecologist project. Go Rodent. See, why don't they have the Rodent? Rodent is great.

Starting point is 00:13:18 I love that as a team name, the rats or something like that. I want to play for the rats. I don't know, this is something that I've been thinking about. Rats are fucking adorable. No. They got such a dodgy name. I think rice. Well, they do spread a lot of disease.

Starting point is 00:13:31 Oh, okay. I mean, if you overlook that. Yeah. But I mean, if you like, they're very similar to a lot of what I've seen as a adorable Australian marsupials. No. Yeah, like the small like a tree hangaroo or something. Yeah, they're like, oh, God, I can't do that. He's shrink that down and it's like, get away from me.

Starting point is 00:13:51 I see his film, prick. Yeah, they're all racking their real cute. My theory is one rat on its own, very cute. Especially if it's a pet. Oh, rat king. But then, yeah, the rat king. But then if you have like dozens of rats, suddenly it's a pet. Oh, I am a rat king. But then, yeah, the rat king. But then if you have like dozens of rats, suddenly it's terrifying.

Starting point is 00:14:08 And they're just hanged by the tail. And then they're sort of like a heaving mass. You're gonna pull up the rolling towards you. Stop. I think that's what the rat king is. Oh. Isn't it? No.

Starting point is 00:14:20 All right. The rat king is actually several unspressed in a ball. I think that's right. I think that genuinely is right. Anyway, in 1947, he started working on a long-term study on a colony of Norway rats. The year was 1947. Colony rats.

Starting point is 00:14:36 So, so these are Norwegian rats? Norwegian rats. Norwegian rats. Norwegian rats. Is that the red catcher? Just dropping off fresh shipment Too penny it doesn't I've got six dozen that's 12 to penny

Starting point is 00:14:55 No hang on I don't do maps feel good But don't catch the rats. They know the rules So catch the rats. I know the rules. So it's working on this new, this is working on this project with Norway rats. So is that legit? Sorry, my question was legitimate. Are they Norwegian rats? That's a breed of rats.

Starting point is 00:15:20 Right. Norwegian rats. I want to be a rat. right. Right. No, we didn't. Right. I once knew a rat. Or should I say that rat knew me? Get away rat. How do you know my name? That rat just gets me. Thanks, Wat. Ah! So, it conducted this long-term study on a colony of the Norway rats in a massive thousand square meter outdoor enclosure.

Starting point is 00:15:57 What? It was like, I think it was at the back of his property and he asked his neighbor if it was cool and his neighbor, I think. Like, this is what Calhoun later said was like, I think he probably pictured it like a little, you know, a little rat enclosure. But he just built like he knocked over trees and he built this massive thing. You're square kilometer of rat, rat run. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's fine.

Starting point is 00:16:18 You can have a little rat thing out the back. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like a little, so like it's like an open shed type thing, I'm imagining. It's enclosed, but yeah Okay, he started with five pregnant females in rat city, which meant did he let it call it? Which meant that there was enough genetic diversity and from his previous studies he believed that the amount of time allowed in the study meant that somewhere in the vicinity of 5,000 babies could be produced over the over the few years of the study that he was taken out.

Starting point is 00:16:55 Well, I reckon there could be way more, right? At first the population of rats grew exponentially, but then some of you unexpected happened. The population leveled off at around 150 and never grew beyond 200. Why? To why? He also noticed that the rats didn't spread sporadically across the large enclosure, remembering that the space was big enough for thousands of rats. Rather, they organized themselves into colonies of around a dozen rats each. This seemed to be their natural limit for a rat crew to live harmoniously with each other. Rats quad. Rats quad. Rats gang. Rats, what are we

Starting point is 00:17:30 working? Rat crew, rats, quad, rat gang, rat, posse, rat pack. Oh, it's definitely rat pack. Yeah, I'm embarrassed. I'm glad you got there because otherwise people would have been on the Twitter. Oh, they get on the Twitter. What's it? You missed a joke opportunity. I know. I miss hundreds every day. And every night I go to bed and I think, fuck, fuck! That's the worst thing you listen back to in edit. And there's some of we all miss.

Starting point is 00:17:55 Yeah. Where fucking it is. You morons. I don't know if you ever listen back to the show. It's the one you haven't edited. So, you know, haven't heard it for maybe a week or two. You listen to it in the car. And I think, it'll be a funny joke right there. And then I say that. Yes, I love that. Am I just the person that would always think of that

Starting point is 00:18:12 possibly good or bad joke or do I remember me saying that? Yeah maybe it's a bit of both. I'm just wondering or do I every time in that scenario, a hundred times out of a hundred I'm going to be like oh wow wow an area, a hundred times out of a hundred, I'm going to be like, oh, wow, wow. That was your example of you making a joke. Wow. Wow, wow. It seems like an ad for a 90s toy commercial. A hundred and thirty episodes, and you can remember one joke that you've said.

Starting point is 00:18:35 I'm really, I'm really fascinated to hear what people think of Dave sitting in his car listening to his own podcast. I reckon some people are going to find that bloody adorable. And what are other people going to think? You gotta listen though. Really fucking adorable. I must tell you a lot of the times I think I hate you so much though. When I'm listening though. That's why I can't do it. You never listen about it. I used to try to keep up with that like our show. Yeah, I try to keep up with it. But now I just can't do it. I'm way behind too. But if I listen to it, keep up with our show. Yeah, I try to keep up with it. But now I just can't tell you.

Starting point is 00:19:05 I'm way behind too. But if I listen to it, it's good to remember, a fun you remember jokes that people are tweeting in about. Yeah, otherwise sometimes you're like, what the fuck? Yeah, someone tweets to you like, who are you? Is this a threat? Oh, I see.

Starting point is 00:19:18 I invited this threat. That's why you tweeted me saying hashtag, what-wow. That's because I said, can you please tweet me? Yeah. hashtag, what wow. Please do it at everyone again. He's lovely how you spell a what.

Starting point is 00:19:34 So, the rat, what we call him? Rat pack. Rat pack. So yeah, that 12 seemed to be the natural limit for the rat pack to live harmoniously. More than this and the mini societies would break down. He finished up the experiment after just over two years. So it was a long-term experiment, almost two and a half years. It was somewhere between two and two and a half, anyway. They didn't write down the exact time. The reason why the population never grew as high as it could have was high infant mortality.

Starting point is 00:20:08 The reasons for this, why this was happening, weren't entirely clear though. Calhoun later suggested that stress from social interaction led to such disruption of maternal behavior that few young survived. That's what he posed. Such disruption living in Rat City as opposed to normal environment, so what do you mean? Well, I think further I'm going to go on as some future ones in more depth and you can sort of hear how things broke down in heart-breaking levels. After the Christmas one, ever so to earlier in the month, I'm like, I'm gonna put up happier suggestions. And the other two were just like bios of celebrities. And I put this one in, I'm like,

Starting point is 00:20:53 and I forgot that of course, rat, a famous rat in my experiment, isn't gonna be like, and everyone decided the best time. Yeah. The results were everyone lived forever. All of those rats now have a Ferrari's and they're happy. They're so happy. Turns out rats are really cool.

Starting point is 00:21:14 That's what they found in summary. Rats are quite cool. Everyone should have one as a best brand. In 1951, Calhoun and his wife, Edith, had their first child, who they named, Cat Calhoun. Really? Not Rat Calhoun. No, but Cat, the mortal enemy of the Rat. What? Yeah, that's cruel. Is this some sort of experiment? Over the next couple of years, Calhoun jumped around a few different places of employment. And in 1954, he landed at the National Institute of Mental Health on NIM.

Starting point is 00:21:49 That same year, Edith and Calhoun had their second child, Cheshire Calhoun. And now the cat, no, what is wrong with this guy? They're cookie. They are cookie. The first one you're like, oh, it could be a coincidence, the second one you're like, oh, it could be a coincidence. The second one you're like, they're fucking at these rats.

Starting point is 00:22:07 Number three is Hello Kitty. Then top cat. Fat cat. Tom and Jerry, the one that is relevant to the cat. So Jerry. Sylvester. No, it's Tom, Tom Cat. Sylvester and Tweedety, the one that's

Starting point is 00:22:25 relevant to me like I'm a fucking idiot. You know, Tom Kat is a thing. You're a thing. It's true. The next chart was called Dave. Dave Kat. At Nim, Calhoun, continued with his rat studies with further experiments to try and figure out why there was such a high infant mortality rate at rat city. This is answered to everything rats. The like this person is exhibiting mental issues and he comes in with a bunch of rats. Yeah, this will help. Yeah, right, right. There will be.

Starting point is 00:22:57 Just mind him throwing rats. Yeah. I don't think that would help. And that's how the doctor and patients switch places, they pay. The doctor becomes the patient. These experiments were smaller in scope, which allowed them to be more controlled. Again, the enclosures were stocked with unlimited food and no predators, obviously, because they were enclosed. He accidentally left six tigers.

Starting point is 00:23:21 No, there's six tigers. He gets inside. He's like, well, dear, there's a six tigers. He gets inside, he's like, well dear, another experiment ready to go. Oh, six tigers! I forgot about the tigers! No, I get it with the tigers. Oh, no. I also sell tigers, sir.

Starting point is 00:23:38 Sorry, yeah, you can't, the rat catcher comes in like, out of his mind, it's like, I've given you the wrong package. I forgot your bar six rats, you get one tiger free. What a deal. So the only catch with all these experiments, the only catch is, the only catch and wing is that there's a fine art amount of space.

Starting point is 00:24:04 So it's supposedly a utopia, but one big difference to a normal rat life is that they can normally leave. Right. Sure. Hey guys, there's only one slight downfall here. Yeah, you're trapped in a small area. You will die at the age of three days. But apart from that, it's great. It's good to be honest. To be honest, they're going to be rough. I'm going to be average at best. These new enclosures were described as rat utopias. He initially focused on experiments with a domesticated albano Norway rat. In 1962, Calhoun published an article of his findings in Scientific Americans titled Population Density and Social Pathology, which focused on the studies of six different populations.

Starting point is 00:24:54 Each of the six experiments had a similar setup. They either started with 32 or 56 rats, so I think the first three were 32, the following three were with 56. I don't seem to be super important, but anyway, and they're all 550 mile to female ratio. And Calhoun believed they could comfortably house around 48 rats, though he did allow the populations to get up to 80

Starting point is 00:25:16 as he was kind of testing that how overcrowding would affect them and stuff like that. But if it did get up to 80, he'd pull rats out. He'd kill a few. Yeah I guess he'd step on 32 of them at once. And then that carried him away. Oh this hasn't worked out well.

Starting point is 00:25:35 Feed him into his tiger pant. Which he's had to hurly put together. Oh shit. There's not enough room for all six of them in there. They are quite uncomfortable. If I got to tell him about the target. The enclosures were rectangular in shape. In shape there isn't really required, is it? Were rectangular? Is there another thing like? But what shape were they? They were rectangular in essence.. Yeah, and divided into four

Starting point is 00:26:05 I think this is the part of the report where I still thought you know I get to get words in By the end I'm like quick Really this report got out of hand. This is the longest one I've done in so long Anyway, the enclosures were rectangular in shape because that's my idea of utopia and spirit and divided into four equal pens Yeah, like with a cross, you know, like straight down the middle, a plus sign dividing them. Each pen included everything that rats needed, including a drinking fountain, a food dispenser, and an elevated nesting area, which could be reached by a circular staircase. Stop it. Like a little spiral staircase.

Starting point is 00:26:43 Oh fuck off. Oh, that's great. I remember a girl that I went to primary school with had a spiral staircase in her house and I was like this is the epitome of wealth. Wow. Yeah no doubt about that. That is so cool. And then she pointed to her lift and you went. I was tan corrected. Well played. Jolly and the West Wing weren't you? Like okay. Well the other one would be that one that goes, you know, that big one you're walking and there's a big one and then it winds out to the left and right. Yes, that's it. Oh, I'm with the GPN or the bottom. I think that's what they have, uh, the Sheffields residents in the Nanny.

Starting point is 00:27:15 No. Fuck. That's just called one that goes up. No, I'm thinking of Annie. Probably. Mr. Warbuck. Or are you thinking of Clueless? Clueless.

Starting point is 00:27:25 ShareHorowitz's house. Which was based on the novel by that lady. I read that in a quiz yesterday. Thanks for sharing. It's a lady. You have a prior to prejudice lady. Jane Austen. And Jane Austen novel.

Starting point is 00:27:40 That's not that one. Tense and sensibility. Not that one. This doesn't matter. Emma? Regretting bringing it up, Emma. It's not based on Emma, is it? Apparently, according to the age's middle section,

Starting point is 00:27:53 man, I destroyed the beginners. Those five questions look like one of them. You're like, you're feeling something, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And then he got clueless. And then I went clueless and clueless. And from then on, really was like, I don't understand these words. Sure. Let alone. Okay. So at face value, the four pens were equal. They're in spiral staircase. Some of them spiral staircases were taller

Starting point is 00:28:19 than others. And those ones were trying, there was just a little, he had all these little tweaks that were trying to like manipulate things so that the ones with the shortest borrow stack cases would be, he's like, it's a little incentive for the rats to go into that pen. But he said later that that didn't have a huge effect on things. Other bison factors he brought in to encourage different use of the four pens included. The fences separating the pens were electrified so that the rats couldn't climb them.

Starting point is 00:28:52 Utopia, obviously. Obviously, the walls are electric. As all utopias, as a picture of them. Is there a daisper? Yes, it's also electric. It would not go in there. Is there a pool? Yes? Yes, it's also electric. I would not go in there. Is it a pool? Yes, full of paranas.

Starting point is 00:29:10 Interesting. Utopia paranas. So far, taking all my boxes. So far, so good. So good. According to Carl Hoon's report, ramps across three of the partitions, enabled like bridges, you know, across three of the partitions enabled, like bridges, across three of the electric partitions enabled the animals to get from one pen to another

Starting point is 00:29:29 and search reverse entire room. With no ramps to permit crossing of the fourth partition, however, the pens on each side of it became the end pens. So it was sort of topologically a row of four. You know what I mean? It's like a U shape. You can only go in one single line to get around. Right. You can't get across that one last barrier.

Starting point is 00:29:50 So you can basically got the two N ones, which was pen one and four, and then pen two and three of the middle ones that you would have to go through to get from one to four. That makes sense. And once you're in one or four, you can get back out. Sorry. You can get back out of one and four to go. Yeah, you can. So once you're in one or four, you can get back out. Sorry. You can get back out of one or four to go. Yeah, you can go either way.

Starting point is 00:30:09 The semi-circle. You can go in that semi-circle as much as you like, theoretically. The rats had to make, this is still quoting from his report, the rats had to make a complete circuit of the room to go from the pen we designated one to the pen we designated four, as I just sort of fucking said. On the other side of the partition separating the from the pen we designated one to the pen we designated four. That's what I just sort of fucking said. On the other side of the partition separating the two, this arrangement of ramps immediately skewed the mathematical probabilities in favor of a higher population density in pens two and three and in pens one and four.

Starting point is 00:30:38 Which I think does that make sense? So two and three, the middle two pens probability is high that that's where where people where people rats will end up because they have to go through those They're not at the end there in the middle. So anyone passing through. Yeah, yeah shot. Yeah, you're the maths man You understand that makes sense right? He's a skatman. Sorry, the skatman. Yeah, where do they shit? Basically pens two and three could be reached by two ramps Whereas pens one and four could only be reached by 1. Okay, now that makes mathematical sense. He went on to say that there was space for a colony of 12 adults in each of the four pens,

Starting point is 00:31:13 meaning that the setup should have been able to support 48 rats comfortably. At the stabilized population of 80, if the rats distribute themselves equally, Dave, how many would that be in each of the four six and a half 20 adult rats in each pen 80 divided by four oh so I think you man across all isn't a 12 no three you assumed I was asking a much more difficult question right which makes sense why would I've asked you that question I thought I was just thrown out. Thought I was taking candy from a rat baby, but. Um. So that's how you sort of would have almost expected

Starting point is 00:31:52 because of those tweaks and those other mathematical probabilities, and meant that that's not how it went. It didn't go 20 in each. The animals sort of ended up pretty lopsided across the four. Over time, the rats began distributing themselvesopsided across the four. Over time, the rats began to distribute them themselves unevenly across the pens, and as expected, the smaller groups established themselves in pens one and four

Starting point is 00:32:12 while the larger groups ended up in the middle pens. Interestingly though, the female rats were relatively spread equally across the four pens while the males were concentrated heavily in the middle pens. So if there were 40 females, it was about 10 females in each of the four, but the males were really hanging out in those middle two pens. Calhoun noted in his article, one major factor in the creation of this state of affairs was the struggle for status that took place among the males.

Starting point is 00:32:43 Shortly after male rats reach maturity, at about six months of age, they enter into a round robin of fights that eventually fixes their position in the social hierarchy. That's a round robin, that's awesome. If I beat Matt, I'll fight you. Like Australian open tennis tournament style. Topman cup, that's awesome. In our experiments, such fights took place among the males in all the pens, both middle and end.

Starting point is 00:33:09 In the end pens, however, it became possible for a single dominant male to take over the area as his territory. During the period... This has a piss all over it. Yeah. I mean, easy done, mate. So a similar way, how you own this pod studio. Yeah, I pee.

Starting point is 00:33:24 Pissed in that corner. Yeah, I pee. Pist in that corner. Oh, it smells awful, but you win. You win again. I ate a lot of asparagus. During the period when the social hierarchy was being established, the subordinate males in all pens adopted the habit of arising early. So these are the non-dominant males get up early than the dominant males.

Starting point is 00:33:45 This enabled them to eat and drink in peace, right, before the big bully dudes got up. Since rats generally eat in the course of their normal wanderings, the subordinate residents of the end pens will likely defeat in one of the middle pens, you know, as they go for their morning stroll. Sure. Oh, that's kind of nice. So, you know, if you're on a stroll, likelihood is you're going to catch a minute. Starts for brunch. I am a bit out of the one toast. You're going to walk off your meal afterwards as well. I mean, do you got to. When after feeding though, they wanted to return to their original quarters, they would find it very difficult. By this time, the most dominant male in the pen would probably have awakened and he would engage the subordinates in fights as they try to come down the one ramp into the pen if they're going back into

Starting point is 00:34:28 one of the end pens one or four. Because there's only one entry in. So the dominant male could be waiting to go on. Are you thinking you're coming back in here? Oh, good luck. Yeah. Put him up. Fuckhead. Right. He puts up his little rat, dukes, and it's on. For a while, the subordinate would continue its efforts to return to what had been its home pen, but after a succession of defeats, it would become so conditioned that would not even make the attempt. You know, they just start going, all right, I don't live here anymore. I don't live here anymore. I get it.

Starting point is 00:35:02 I get it. Big man. In essence, the dominant male established his territorial dominion and his control over a harm of females, not by driving the other males out, but by preventing their return. This utopia sounds fantastic. Where do I sign?

Starting point is 00:35:19 Fantastic for one rat only. Even then. No, even if you're in the senses. You still have to be a rat. for one rat only. Even then. I know. Even in expenses. You still have to be a rat. Yeah, yeah. You still a rat in a box. Electricuted. But you've got six girlfriend. That's too many. Oh God, a naguery is off. You've only got two. And then what?

Starting point is 00:35:39 Fuck enough. Hell yeah. Valentine's Day. A nightmare. Oh. Hell yeah, what? Valentine's Day? A nightmare. Ooh. Six girlfriend, geez. Tenses. 10 girlfriends.

Starting point is 00:35:53 Once a male had established his dominion over an end pen and the harm it contained, he was usually able to maintain it. Although he slept a good deal of the time. Yeah, pretty good. He made his he slept a good deal of the time, pretty good. He made his sleeping quarters at the base of the ramp, so he's basically on perpetual guard, awakening as soon as another male appeared at the head of the ramp.

Starting point is 00:36:15 He had to only open his eyes for the evaded or wheel around and return to the adjoining camp. Whoa, they're really scared of him. Yeah. And you know, this is happening across a few different experiments. So it's not just how many in one multiple panels,

Starting point is 00:36:28 they're all sleeping at the bottom of the room. Yeah, all got their little harness. It's actually just because their farts are really bad. So the other way, it's close and go, oh my God. Go back, go back. And as soon as they open their eyes, they open their eyes.

Starting point is 00:36:42 You see the eye, and you're like, oh God. That's just biology. Your eyes open, our eyes open. We don't see the eye? You're like, oh God! That's just biology. You can watch my eyes open. Eyes open, eyes open. We don't need the experiment for this. Yeah, I know that. My eyes are wide open.

Starting point is 00:36:52 My no mate. You see your time. It's a very new one, Brian. Something I found interesting was the that kill who noted when the dominant rat when the dominant rats female mates came and went because they also went out and fed and you know what went for one when they came back the male dominant male rat didn't even seem to notice. Like he just kept sleeping so only so he had some sort of sense of when it was a male subordinate coming back that he knew to awaken to scare him off But it was a females he just seemingly sleep just sleep through it as they come No Yeah, I guess it's some sort of I guess it's bloody pharaoh mode maybe ferret moans no, I'm editing that out

Starting point is 00:37:39 Two and a half beers and I say ferret moan. This is what you never drink I and I say ferret moment. This is why I should never drink. I've lost count of the amount of times of her due to say that. Ferret moment? Every time. She'll not drink. It's always this summer. Finally, this vaguely had context. And I say that very lightly. There's no ferrets.

Starting point is 00:38:00 At least we're talking about ferremont. That's true. It's very close to relevant relevant that very close halfway there Fair it's a renanimal I didn't even consider that The dominant male did tolerate some other male so these were males that respected the dominant male status Right, so only ones who were like you to the king He's the boss Johnny.

Starting point is 00:38:26 I'm just coming in to give you a message. What was that? What was that accent? You said the boss Johnny you started this? No, but you were massaged. It was very confusing. No, when you said it, it sounded like something when you said it didn't. My New York. Johnny, I'm just kind of giving you a massage. I'm new New York. I'm just gonna give you a massage.

Starting point is 00:38:45 I'm in New York in here. I'm in New York. I'm in New York. I'm in New York. I'm in New York. I'm in New York. I'm in New York. I'm in New York.

Starting point is 00:38:56 I'm in New York. I'm in New York. I'm in New York. I'm in New York. I'm in New York. I'm in New York. I'm in New York. I'm in New York.

Starting point is 00:39:04 I'm in New York. I'm in New York. I'm in New York. I'm in New York. I'm in New York. That's wrong. That's not that's not right at all. Yeah, where's that you sound coming from? My swatch it's a bit that all your mouth makes a weird shape. It's a If Christopher walking was raised in Jersey, that's what it is. Okay, I'm a swatch. Okay. I kind of get the gold watch You understand I can't understand. Lost at the end there. Oh yeah, it was at the end. He had it, he had it. He had it that whole time.

Starting point is 00:39:29 And to ride the engine. Lost control, got too big on ya. I have not mentioned this again on the show, but you NanaMus support on Twitter for the way I say Cartilage. You NanaMus. Yeah, I mean that's people, you know, pity, pity support. Yeah, they're very sweet out there. That is sweet, that's sweet.

Starting point is 00:39:44 They're kind people. I don't think, because I don't think everyone else, you know, pity support. They're very sweet out there. That is sweet, that's sweet. They're kind people. I don't think, because I don't think everyone else, you know, obviously there's going to be some people with your, you know, certain qualities. The majority of people are going, oh, everyone unanimously agreed on the podcast. No one singing, we better tweet in and let Jess and Matt know as well as everyone else. Like the job's been done. Because Queensland was definitely wrong. Okay, you're not taking away at all what Matt's saying.

Starting point is 00:40:12 They're wrong. And now twig, what do you say massage? Or do you say massage? You sound like Bob from Bicker. Which one was Bob? He was the one? Which almost Bob. He was the one who called himself Bob. He's fucking the third person and he was like-

Starting point is 00:40:30 I think it was designed to be annoying. Yeah, he was really annoying. Well, not all my characters are endearing. Some of them are just real. Really cool. Like Bob from Becca. Yeah, I think you bring a bit of truth to this podcast. God, you're such an artist.

Starting point is 00:40:43 Yes. Thank you. Yes. And the an artist. Yes. Thank you. Yes. And the scene. Dave, shut up. Matt, do go on. So I'm talking about the subordinate males who are allowed to hang around with the domino males.

Starting point is 00:40:55 The macaque, yeah. Oh my god. These subordinate males were observed to inhabit the end pens in many of the experiments. These guys spent most of their time hidden in the nesting areas with the females. in many of the experiments. These guys spent most of their time hidden in the nesting areas with the females. Yeah, but the ladies. They only left briefly to get food and water.

Starting point is 00:41:12 As they respected the dominant males position, they never attempted to bone any of the females. Oh, right. Out of respect. The scientists somehow figured it out. That it was out of respect. Probably out of respect. The scientists somehow figured it out. For the dominant male. That it was out of respect. Probably out of fear. Respect for Johnny.

Starting point is 00:41:30 When they encountered the dominant male though, they would often make repeated attempts to bone him and according to Calhoun, generally the dominant male tolerated these advances. So you started saying some... It's like prison. Yeah, it started saying some sort of like different sexual things going on. Impens 1 and 4, in pens 1 and 4, where the populations were the lowest with one dominant male. The life expectancy was higher in the females and baby rats.

Starting point is 00:42:00 Whereas in the middle pens, it was much lower. According to Calhoun's article, in the second series of experiments, 80% of the infants born in the middle pens died before weaning. In the first series, 96% perished before this time, in some cases. Wow. Like, that's a pretty high percentage of not getting through, um, infancy. Yeah. The way dominance in the males was established was through fights.

Starting point is 00:42:26 Uh, the more fights they started and won, the more likely they were to become dominant. Uh, that makes sense. Uh, Calhoun noted that more than half the animals in each experiment gave up the struggle for status after a while, but among those are persisted a clear cut hierarchy developed. In the crowded middle pens, no one individual occupied the top position in this hierarchy permanently. In every group, a little bit there, Matt. No. We weren't not going to let that go. In every group of 12 or more males, one was the most aggressive and most often the victor in fights. Nevertheless, this rat was periodically acid from his position.

Starting point is 00:43:13 At regular intervals, during the course of their waking hours, the top ranking males engaged in free-for-alls that culminated in the transfer of dominance from one male to another. In between these tumultuous changes of the guard, relatively calm, relative calm, provoked, that's all direct from his scientific report. I love terms like free for all. Yeah. Scientific free for all.

Starting point is 00:43:38 Yeah. Did he use the term boning? No, that was a man. Right. You were paraphrasing. Yeah. What term would he use No, that was a man. Right, okay. You were paraphrasing. What term would he use? He said dicking.

Starting point is 00:43:48 Give the... My preferred terminology. Give Johnny a good sign. I mean, you're a sign. A firm dicking. A firm dicking. A child's dicking. Dickens.

Starting point is 00:43:59 Fuck. That's the author's name, child's dicking. Oh boy. Oh boy. Are you working way too hard for way too little? There's never been a better time to consider a career in IT. You could enjoy a recession-resistant career and a rewarding field with plenty of growth opportunities and often flexible work environments. Go to mycomputercareer.edu and take the free career evaluation.

Starting point is 00:44:26 You could start your new career in months, not years. Take classes online or on campus. And financial aid is available to qualified students, including the GI Bill. Now is the time. Mycomputercareer.edu. Underneath the dominant miles, Calhoun broke the rest of the male population in a three

Starting point is 00:44:46 groups. Firstly, there were pansexuals who didn't vie for status, but would try to mate with any other rat regardless of sex and age. And was usually, you know, was not fought off, or whatever. Secondly, there was a group who was completely passive. They ignored all other rats, and the other rats ignored them, even in mating times. Calhoun said, to the casual observer, the passive animals would have appeared to be the healthiest and most attractive members of the community. They were fat and sleek, and their first showed none of the breaks and bare spots left by the fighting in which males usually engage, but their social

Starting point is 00:45:25 disorientation was nearly complete. And finally, there were the probes, which Carl Hoon describes as perhaps the Australians. Is it perhaps aliens and the strangest of all types that emerged among the males? The probes always lived in the middle pens and took no part in the status struggle, yet they were the most active of all the rats. They were hypersexual and also pansexual. They bypassed the normal rat courtship ritual, which according to Cal Hoon goes like this. Oh my god, yes, rat courtship. I'm so excited. All right, yeah, this is something I... Bunch of flowers. Okay, yes, just a little bit of here. Alright, yeah, this is something I... Bunch of flowers.

Starting point is 00:46:02 Okay, yes, just a lovely here. Dinner and a movie. Let's take number one. Dinner and movie. Let's phase one. Maybe a bit of a walk afterwards. Okay. Hold hands if you feel uncomfortable.

Starting point is 00:46:14 Talk about what you've just seen. Yep. Second date. Bone. How nice. Classy. Classy. You know that far off. Not really. And I mean, when I say classy there, classy. Classy. You know that far off?

Starting point is 00:46:26 Not really. And I mean, when I say classy, there I meant that sincerely. Dave, I reckon, was saying it from like up on a moral high horse. Slut shaming. I think it was slutshaming. Oh, I'm in trouble for slutshaming a rat. What is wrong with society? Well, that's what we're trying to find out these experiments.

Starting point is 00:46:43 Sorry, you top here. And what's the rat caught you? So according to Calhoun, because of this, phase one, the male pursues the female. She then retires in a weburo while the male patiently waits outside. So I guess this is like the movie. Yeah. He poaks his head in occasionally, but never enters. How you doing in there? How you doing it? Still so good. Still in there? Still don't wanna.

Starting point is 00:47:09 Start here. If you need anything. If you need. Only if you want. He sounds like a creep. No, he's not. He's poking his head into the dressing room. Yeah, it's hair cold.

Starting point is 00:47:20 That's nice. This is across rats everywhere, apparently. Right, so what's phase two? This so it's so so this phase may also involve a dance But that's normally that I think that's normally in the wild Populations not in these was just like I'm a thermo joint revolts or a pop up. Yeah real wild Do they put on a little bow tie and a dress and they go to a Venue yeah, they go to a venue. Yeah, they go to a venue.

Starting point is 00:47:45 Oh, if you know what I mean. Jack Robys says, mean like a town hall. Oh, that's nice. Maybe like a music. Been a music. Been a music. A bar. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:47:57 Finger food. Oh, you know what I mean. Classic. Classic. It's a sl like shaming Dave. Then the female emerges from the borough to accept the males advances. Did she want to say no?

Starting point is 00:48:15 Come down and says no thanks. She just does that. One of those ain't happening. Yeah. I'm using my hand to cut my neck. Yeah. One of those. Like, ah, ch-ch-a. Yeah, none of the cars my hand to cut my neck. Yeah, one of those like This process was followed by all other rats in the experiment right apart from these they all did the same thing They all did the same so she emerged as excepts and then do they just go for then they go and then she brings brings me into the budwara

Starting point is 00:48:39 Wow, I guess Oh, yeah, maybe just right there and then um,, everywhere's a boot while when you're a rat. Blocking the entrance to the bar over and I was like, can I go to bed or? Yeah. It's like, yeah, when your housemate has someone over or something, you're like, oh, I'm sorry. How long do I have to stay?

Starting point is 00:48:57 I need to pee, but I can't really go out there. I need to take it, shit. Yeah. Skepat. Skepat. Whoa, yeah. We'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll So even the other rats in the middle pens would follow that even though there was over-crow and that sort of stuff But the probers right they wouldn't tolerate any period of waiting when the female retired into the burrowed a Probe would follow due to the state of the rats society the Probers would often find dead young ones in the nest and over time The Probers would often become cannibalistic of these young dead babies

Starting point is 00:49:44 Probers of these young dead babies. Oh, probe is. I mean, that was sounding like the best one to be until that moment. Is it because the name was Proba? And it made you think of Probi from NCIS? Yes, McGee. What did you think was going to happen when I said they're the only ones who didn't follow the normal courtship?

Starting point is 00:50:01 I just sort of meant that it was, they just had like, I'm all at first sight. Like, you know, they just had like, orgis. Not a first sight. Like, you know, all in like 12 rats in the farm. But the probes were males only. Right. No lady probes. No, just lady victims. Six probes.

Starting point is 00:50:15 Right, I thought it was like, you know, there's six male probes, six female probes and everyone's just very organized. That's very organized. Together. It doesn't matter the numbers, because everyone's game in a bowl. Because everyone's into everyone. That's true. Or jeep, but that's what I was thinking, but it doesn't sound like it's gonna be the case.

Starting point is 00:50:30 I didn't foresee the cannibalism. No, that was a surprise. Am I naive? Am I? Maybe. I mean, what do you think a utopia is about? Yeah. That is utopia.

Starting point is 00:50:41 Electric fences and cannibalism. Yes. Saving the young. There were two sets of experiments distinguished from each other with slight variations. In the first set of experiments, Calhoun noticed the development of a phenomenon which he famously dubbed the behavioral sink. Have you heard of that term? Behavioral sink.

Starting point is 00:51:00 I don't think so. I haven't heard of it, but apparently it was quite a, it was a very important part of this whole research. It was an important discovery or supposed to discover whatever, you know. Which he explained was the outcome of any behavioral process that collects animals together in unusually great numbers. Cal Hoon went on to explain that the emergence of a behavioral sink was fostered by the arrangements that were made for feeding the animals.

Starting point is 00:51:29 In these experiments, the food consisted of small hard pellets. This is in the first three. Small hard pellets that were kept in a circular hopper formed by wire mesh. This meant that it took quite a bit of effort for the rats to access their food. And as such, Calhoun realized that the chances were good that while one rat was eating, another would join it at the hopper because it was taken so long that just the rats wandering past as they normally do, we only ate when we're hungry

Starting point is 00:51:59 and when it's available, normally by themselves and they wouldn't really associate it as a social thing. But that's what started to happen, right? They started eating together. Right, you see one rat eating, you're like, oh, one some of that. Yeah, sort of like that, right? Because it was taken so long they just started doing it. They're like, oh, I'm eating other rats or eating at the same time. This is how we do it. So as the population grew, the rats began to associate eating with being in the presence of other rats. Over time, the rats would rarely eat unless the feeders were already in use by other animals. Wow. And that's so that was a big change very

Starting point is 00:52:34 quickly. And then after another sort of relatively short period of time, some of the rats would actually build little tables and put those lovely red and white checkered tablecloths on it. Beautiful. A bit of Vino and then they'd you know one of the few of the rats had little moustaches and they'd be like oh. And did they turn the pellets into spaghetti baloney? Oh that's nice. They wanted to start at one end of the pellet. Oh yeah the other end of the pellet. And to be honest the pellets are very small and that's nice. They wanted to start at one end of the pellet. Oh, yeah, the other end of the pellet. And to be honest, the pellet's very small,

Starting point is 00:53:07 and that was it. Lady in the rat. Have you ever tried a lady in the rat with Lady in the tramp was spaghetti? With a dog? No, with a person. No, to the second one. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha I have not done it. I picture that we're going, have you ever tried a lady then tramp with the dog is that

Starting point is 00:53:30 you start at one end of the dog. I'm misunderstood, which is embarrassing. I could tell because he did not laugh when we had a bloody good time. Get on board, do it. And yeah, I have. And it's, it's, is it beautiful? So beautiful. I do like spaghetti.

Starting point is 00:53:51 Matt, let's try it now. I feel spaghetti here. I, I definitely fight for it, which is how I understand that scene to play out. You're the big, big Johnny rat. Johnny rat. Calhoun continued saying the process became a vicious cycle. As more and more of the rats tended to collect at the hopper

Starting point is 00:54:11 in one of the middle pans, the other hoppers became less desirable as eating places. Right, places became trendy. Yeah, it's like, we want to eat where there's a queue, basically. No, there's other place which has the exact same kind of food. No line. It just doesn which has the exact same kind of food, no line. It just doesn't have the same vibe.

Starting point is 00:54:28 How do you say, you wanna say quince? Yeah, that's male, but. Pustiche. I'm gonna look up what that means one day. How do you type into Google though? Okay, Google, what the fuck does genocide quince mean? Mm-hmm.

Starting point is 00:54:45 Siri, tell me to fuck off. All right. Rough. Barutal. Barutal, Siri. The rats that were eating at these undesirable locations, finding themselves deserted by their group mates, would transfer their feeding to the more crowded pen.

Starting point is 00:55:00 Oh, come on. By the time the three experiments in the first series drew to a close, half or more of the populations were sleeping as well as eating in that pen. Well, they all went to the... They went. So they'd not just started eating, but they just started ending up, if through all these things, you know, the dominant male pushing a lot of males in, but it just ended up meaning like they were all clumped into that one pen together. As a result, there was a decided increase in the number of social adjustments each rat had to make every day. Regardless of which pen a rat slept in, it would go to one particular middle pen several

Starting point is 00:55:36 times a day to eat. Therefore, it was compelled daily to make some sort of adjustment to virtually every other rat in the experimental population. So, this is one thing that Calhoun sort of talks about a lot is like people almost having or people is when it was extrapolating, but having a limited amount of social interactions in a meday, which I think I feel like that sometimes it does feel ring true a little bit. Yeah, I feel like we often see you at the end of that kind of day. Yeah, probably.

Starting point is 00:56:04 Where you have had enough, I've had enough of this. But we're forcing you at the end of that kind of day. Yeah, probably where you have had enough. I bet enough of this. But we're forcing you to have another social interaction and record it. Yeah. And pretend you're having fun. Look guys, I love this. This is my favorite thing to do. I generally look forward to it every time.

Starting point is 00:56:17 I didn't believe a word of that. Did you, David? I was owned out. When I hear a lie, I don't want to hear a lie. I hear a lie, I don't want to hear a lie. I hear nothing. So why you zoned out when Jess was making a suck job joke before? I'm so sorry. I'm just... You didn't feel the truth in the hearing line.

Starting point is 00:56:34 Look, if you said the word suck job, I would have been there. Did you know, you know, maybe you didn't say suck job. I didn't say suck job. No, I'm saying suck job. No, what is that? Don't answer that. I think it is what you think it is. It's a... Okay, Google. What's a suck job? Oh, okay. I vacuum cleaner. You're employed as a vacuum cleaner, okay? I've got a Dyson. Yeah, Dyson is a suck job. How do I do it? Yeah, Dyson is a stock job. How do I do it?

Starting point is 00:57:05 In the second series of experiments, they did not observe behavioral syncs developing as they used a different feeder. As the main change, they didn't use the second set of experiments. On these experiments, they used a powdered food, which was much quicker and easier for the rats to eat. This lowered the probability that two rats would eat at the same time, so the vicious cycle never began. Right. They did start, when they noticed that,

Starting point is 00:57:29 Calhoun put in water that the water found that were similar to the old pellet systems, it took longer to drink, and did find that that started having the effect of social drinking, so that the rats would drink together. But it didn't have as big of an effect because rats tend to have a drink when they wake up in the morning. So it didn't affect their day as much. And it didn't lead to that vicious cycle

Starting point is 00:57:55 that led to the behavioral sink. But when they started drinking together, was there a lot more like teen pregnancy and things like that? Oh, that was, I mean, they reach teen pregnancy. I mean, in town they reach maturity at six months. Right. Teen pregnancy would be a miracle. How long can a rat live?

Starting point is 00:58:17 Okay, Google. Okay, Google. Like how you're responding to your gonna. Okay, Google. I think we're having. Yeah. Okay, Google. It just won't turn off. That's enough social drinking. Okay. Google. So yeah, you're responding to Google. Okay, Google. I think we're happy. Yeah. Okay, good. Just want to know that's enough social drinking. Okay. Okay. Okay, good. The middle pen females built less and less adequate nests and eventually stop building nest at all. This is another thing that was observed.

Starting point is 00:58:40 On this Calhoon wrote, the first sign of disruption was a failure to build the nest to normal specifications. These females simply piled the strips of paper in a heap. So this is how they built their nest. Lots of paper strips and they'd sort of function it into a, into like a sort of a cup-shaped nest. Like a nest, cup. I don't know. What's something that could help you guys understand a nest, like a cup. Or a nest. Yeah, no, no, just was right there. You could also think of it as a nest. It's like a nest shaped cup. If you can picture a nest, like that. Halfway there.

Starting point is 00:59:19 You fucking idiot. So that's what they usually do. That's what they usually do. But they were just sort of piling the strips of paper in a heap and sometimes trampling them into a pad that showed little signs of cup formation. Thank you. Thank you, Cal Hoon coming in with the goods there. I knew I didn't come up with cup from nowhere. Straight from Bloody Cal Hoon's mouth.

Starting point is 00:59:39 His rat mouth. Oh, he's a cow. Straight from his cup. The cup is overflow with knowledge from Kelhoon. The cup is overflow? That's something. Let's shake speed right there. Thank you.

Starting point is 00:59:51 Later in the experiment, they would bring fewer and fewer strips to the nesting site. In the midst of transporting a bit of material, they would drop it to engage in some other activity occasion by contact and interaction with other individuals they're men on the way. So they'd bump into someone to go, oh. Jenny! It is great to see you. I have not seen you in weeks.

Starting point is 01:00:13 And be very distracted, whereas in normal circumstances that wouldn't happen. They'd be very focused on the task at hand. They'd be building the nest, right? In the extreme disruption of their behavior during the later months of the population's history, they would build no nest at all, but would bear their letters on the sawdust in the borough box, just as is, which is not ideal. He went on to say that the

Starting point is 01:00:38 middle pan female similarly lost the ability to transport their letters from one place to another. They would move only part of their letters from one place to another. They would move only part of their letters and would scatter them by depositing the infants in different places or simply dropping them on the floor of the pen. The infants thus abandoned throughout the pen were seldom

Starting point is 01:00:58 nursed. They would die where they were dropped and were there upon generally eaten by the adults. Oh, Utopia. Calhoun suggested that in time failures of reproductive function would have caused the colonies to die out entirely. Chugess is the silver lining there, this hell. And some of us didn't want to use it. It will.

Starting point is 01:01:20 It would have been a did. But one of his assistants publicly said it was hell. It was rat hell. Oh, that's so sad. Yeah, this is fucked. This is all it's all fucked, but sorry spoiler alerts. I mean, it's all equally fucked to that. It doesn't get much more fucked. At the end of the first series of experiments, he took the healthiest four-mile and four females and let them live in more normal circumstances. Right. Just to see if there was ongoing, like down a couple of generations, would they affected by? Right.

Starting point is 01:01:53 Could they learn how to do the normal stuff again? Right. Exactly. But he found that even though they were in the prime of their life and they no longer lived in overpopulated environments, they produced fewer litters in the next six months than would normally have been expected. And none of the offspring that were born survived to maturity. None of them. None of them.

Starting point is 01:02:13 Weird. Anyway, so yeah, it's all pretty fucked. The article that I've been quoting from, so a lot of that stuff is direct from his report, which is there's no footage, there's very few photos, there's some illustrations, or not publicly available footage. During crayon. And it's like a very poorly drawn big rat and then some writing that's backwards, it says

Starting point is 01:02:40 rat. Rat, rat, rat. So that report is where it all is from. So most of that was direct from the horses. The cat's mouth and it was the cat's dad's funny. Come on. It's going to be a little bit more. It's going to be a little bit more. I'll be la pa caue, bo lo pa pa pa pa pa pa pa pa pa pa pa pa pa. BOOM! BOOM! What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? What's up? So anyway, this article I've been quoting from God very popular, blew up, right? At the time?

Starting point is 01:03:46 At the time. People were super fascinated by the experiments and Cal Hoon's findings. He became somewhat of a celebrity. I know. The rat celebrity. And later he is. He met the Pope. Wow.

Starting point is 01:03:58 People started comparing the results to humans and drawing conclusions that the increasingly populated urban areas were heading for similarly disastrous ends. We're all going to eat our babies. There's going to be one big Johnny of the bottom of our rounds. We're not going to have homes. We're just going to fucking... She'll on the floor. She'll on the floor.

Starting point is 01:04:17 I think they're right. I think they're right. We're doomed. They were genuinely worried about that back then, because those urban areas were starting to explode in population. Population density was increasing at a pretty fast rate. There was already that kind of worry about these things. This played right into that.

Starting point is 01:04:38 They wanted to find out if the findings would transfer to humans, but results were inconclusive. This isn't him. This is others. There are sort of many other experiments we're going on with humans themselves. They put humans in four quadrants. The same quadrant. They built for us. The wearing them as a belt basically. This four guys are standing. Looking right at each other going, yeah, this is not good. This is weird, I don't know how I'm going. One of them's going, all the women are mine. One of them's saying, I'm gonna eat you. And all the fences are electric, so they're permanently touching the fence.

Starting point is 01:05:14 Ah! Ah! Ah! Still, you're topia. This wrap food tastes pretty good, huh? You gotta try the ball and ace. Oh, so good. Luigi does it so well. Luigi, oh god. What?

Starting point is 01:05:33 That's a name, Matt. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha. But results were inconclusive. Certainly nothing like the apocalyptic findings of the rat studies of Calhoun. No human behavior sinks could be found in any of the studies of Earth. So Calhoun went back to conduct more experiments at NIM.

Starting point is 01:05:55 Back where he enjoyed it in the rat, in the rodent world. Of course, it's not gonna be the same sort of sink because humans are already social animals unlike the rats naturally. So rats aren't social at all. Didn't you say that before that usually they would not stop that it's solid in solitary, they wouldn't like stop to have a chat. But humans are like, hey, how are you? Yeah, there's a lot of things that they were there definitely rats and humans are not exactly the same if that's what you mean Case closed. Oh, they're not

Starting point is 01:06:28 No, we don't have that very felt I thought it was like Yams and sweet potatoes like you know same thing No, it is you're both right Somehow somehow So we went back to Nym This would prove to be his most famous, mouse universe experiment. Oh my God, mouse universe.

Starting point is 01:06:52 First thing I thought you were gonna say, mouse university, and I was like, oh, that's fucking huge. Look at him in their little lectures. What he learned about astrophysics, of course, you are, your smart little mouse. He's got little glasses on. Fuck, that's cute.

Starting point is 01:07:04 This episode called, mouse universe mouse. Could be got little glasses on. Fuck that's cute. Is that what I called mouse universe? Could be. Oh, that's a good title. I've got it down as the mouse universe experiment. Oh, perfect. Oh, great. So he later published the findings of his article. So he did it again. It was on BuzzFeed. It was all sort of behind closed doors. I reckon that's what he do today. Real science. He said, what did he say all in brawl or something? I love it. Free for all. He talks in very, yeah, like very

Starting point is 01:07:32 very easily readable layman chat. The mouse uses its rat chompers to eat the food. Do you mean teeth? Yeah, rat chompers. Again, what accent is that? Rat chompers! What? I can't, I'm broken.

Starting point is 01:07:59 I'm broken. It's okay Dave, hey, Dave, Dave, come back. I'm not fuck you. I'm not fuck you. I'm not fuck you. I'm not Dave, come back. Not fuck you. Come back Dave. Fuck you real good. Oh so now he's stuck in the character. I don't know if we're going to get Dave back. Dave.

Starting point is 01:08:11 Dave. Dave. I feel like a rat chopper. It's a safe place. Dave. You're a chopper out of every situation. Okay mate, you just keep going and Dave will come back eventually. So we're back in Nimm, right?

Starting point is 01:08:23 Mouse universe experiments going on. This is a big one. this is a big famous one. And he, the findings he published in an article titled, Death Squared, the explosive growth and demise of a mouse population. Far out, that's called Death Squared. That was cool, but the rest of it wasn't. Dave, you back.

Starting point is 01:08:42 Oh, sorry, hello, where'd I go? cool but the rest of it wasn't as good. Dave, you back. Oh, sorry, hello, where'd I go? This article opens, I should largely speak of mice, but my thoughts are on man, on healing, on life and its evolution. I don't know, all right. Threatening life and evolution of the two deaths, death of the spirit, and death of the body. Now he's a philosopher. Is this a scientist? spirit and death of the body. Now he's a philosopher. Is this a scientist? No. I don't, yeah, I guess not really.

Starting point is 01:09:07 Sort of, I'm picturing him in a white coat. Yeah. I saw a video of him smoking a pipe. No, you did it. Yeah, so I did. That's cool. I believe you. You know who else smokes a pipe?

Starting point is 01:09:23 Stanton Friedman. I'm the guy that was at UFR. It's got a little bit of that. You're like Stanton. Well, what is this guy, an ethylologist or something? What was the word again? Yeah, that was right. Same diff, ethylologist.

Starting point is 01:09:36 You follow ethylologist. So in the article, he references the Bible a bit as well. Which is what you want in science. Science. He includes mentions of the four wholesomeen of the apocalypse. Science. Science. Very science. One of the four wholesomeen is of course science. The four rat men of the apocalypse. So the mouse universe experiment, so this one is also known as universe 25. He's built many of these things over time, began in 1968. There were many similarities to the rat experiments, as in there was plenty of food sources,

Starting point is 01:10:11 nesting areas, all the bloody things they want in a utopia, water, unlimited supply of all these things. Again, the only obvious catch was that there was a limit on space. There were some differences though, instead of Norway rats, Calhoun brought in Albino house mice. This enclosure was different too, to suit mice better. It was more vertical with mesh tunnels leading up to housing areas which were referred to as walk-up apartments Oh, a split level. Just this doesn't. This does strike me with the fact that it resembles the Sims a lot. Yeah, this goes as a plan, Sims.

Starting point is 01:10:54 This is playing Sims before the Sims existed with mice. I've never. And the real pain. Put my Sims. My Sims. Did you, so you actually played with my Sims? Wow. That is very, that's more similar

Starting point is 01:11:08 than I think even Dave really. I was just joking around, but apparently. I don't understand what you mean. I don't get it. What do you mean? What do you get that? And tell me, Jess. Yes, Dave.

Starting point is 01:11:18 You've locked one of these my Sims as you call them in a bedroom without a door and a fireplace and set fire to the room. Have you done this? I've never done that, David. I helped them achieve their dreams. Have you ever put a miceim in the pool and taken away the pool ladder so they swim around until they drown? Is this true?

Starting point is 01:11:36 I put it to you, Miss Perkins. Did you count, Mousy? No comment. That always gets you. That always gets, yes. That always gets, it's gonna get, what do we gotta, we gotta ride where we bloody wanna.

Starting point is 01:11:50 I mean, if you're a sim, even if you're a mouse sim, surely you don't need the ladder to get, just use a bit like, I know. A little, just a push up. Just a little push up. Bit of it's sentive.

Starting point is 01:12:00 Bloody hell, you're dying and you can't find the strength to pull yourself up out of a pool. Yeah. Or to go to the shallow end and just stand there. Stand there. I won't do it. I don't think there's shallow ends in their pools. Oh, that's, that's a terrible design for.

Starting point is 01:12:12 It's not safe. And they are mice. So I mean, obviously they probably don't have human upper body strength. Probably. Can't go and see it. I don't know. No, Calhoun. You're no ethyl just.

Starting point is 01:12:24 Calhoun estimated that up to 3,800 mice could live here. So I'm much bigger. Could live here. And die here. Is he livering or could he die a ring? Die a ring? Die a ring? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:12:41 Die a ring? Die a ring. Die a ring. Die a ring. Die a ring. I do not like. I do not like the poo. Finally a joke on the show. Thank you all as always. That was the hardest I've ever made, Dave Lough. Wow. And it was by making a fart noise. Fun fact, better of a right hand. Oh, a well timed fart noise. I'll put it to you. Thank you. You can't get out of lawyer mode. I'll put it to you. I'll put it to you. I'll put it to you.

Starting point is 01:13:13 Malady. Can you confirm your whereabouts during the fart? That's right in front of you, Dave, producing the fart. So, 3,800 miles, right? That's that's that's way more than the old one. Yeah, the old one of the rat of 40 comfortably. Rats 80. Yeah. Or yeah, rat city was was bigger, but the the ones beyond rats. Rat city was one in the big outdoor area of his name. Right, it's too late. They had what 200 or something. Yeah, I never got up to 200, but that was, it was, had the ability to go bigger like 5,000 I think that one. So this one isn't even quite as big as that one, but it's still, you know, big.

Starting point is 01:13:59 But this time unlike the rat ones where he said he would limit it to 80, he wasn't going to limit it at all. It was going to be hands off whatever happens happens in terms of numbers, right? The experiment began with four pairs of mice introduced into the new habitat. The first 104 days were called, uh, Biker, who in the adjustment phase, as the first eight mice figured out their surroundings and their new mice friends. Was that his words? That's, I mean, that's adorable. I think his words were 104 days, the rest were mine. The mice friends, they haven't mixes. Barbecue. Just catch it out. mixes. Barbecue. Just catch it up. Playing some ice-breaking games. Yeah. Hi, I'm Jess, 27 Virgo. Vir during that time that that was just those original mice, right?

Starting point is 01:15:09 No births happened at that point. How long's a rat pregnancy? I can't handle the months. Some amount of days. It would be that long, you would not as long as a human. I'll almost guarantee that. Galhoun called phase two, the exploitation phase. During this phase, the population grew quickly

Starting point is 01:15:33 doubling around every two months. So I guess that should help us understand that. A couple of months maybe? If it doubles every two months? No, it'd be less than that then, right? Dave, do the math. There's a lot of variables. There's lots. That's why it's variables with Dave. Okay, Google. How long does Rat City take to double? Google? Google, she hung up. So it reached over 600 mice by day 315, but

Starting point is 01:16:04 from this point, the numbers grew much slower, doubling around every five months. This period was dubbed the stagnation phase. On day 600 the final mouse that survived birth was born, bringing the population to 2,200 mice. The final mouse down, down, down, down. To the final mouse down down down down. See the final mouse that survived Earth. Yes, so from then on, no mice survived. Wow, that's crazy nut. Infancy, yep.

Starting point is 01:16:37 So it peaked at 2,200, which was about 1,600 less than the space allowed for. In the time, the population grew from 600 to 200, the mice societal structures broke down. It was noted that the mice grouped together in one area of the pen again, only this time without any trickery from Calhoun. So there was no food tricks or ladder tricks or anything like that.

Starting point is 01:17:02 They could have gone. It was pretty open for them to move around, but they didn't, they still sort of clumped in one area. During the stagnation phase, the mice mirrored many of the behaviors of the rats in the previous experiments. In the wild, mice who don't find a click, but don't know if that's what they call them, or whatever, they just go, they leave that, that mask colony go elsewhere, right? But obviously in this case, they can't do that.

Starting point is 01:17:28 So the masks who didn't find a spot in their little society, just sort of withdrew and just sort of zombie, you know, they just sort of floated through laughter. The males ended up living on the ground of the enclosure and they would often fight with one another. Often one of these zombie sort of mice, that's not what he called them, that's what I'm going to call them, they would just cop it, they just take a beating, right? Because they just sort of had no real will to live. They didn't have a purpose.

Starting point is 01:18:04 With the females in a similar scenario where they didn't find a spot, they retreated to the highest part of the enclosure and this is when the behavior sink began. The following phase was the final phase, which Carl Hoont titled the death phase, which sounds promising. It's ominous. Jess was closer to the. Promonous. Thank you. Thank you. The most. No, thank you.

Starting point is 01:18:30 No, thank you. No, thank you. So the death phase, the most notable part of this phase was that there was a whole generation of young who were rejected by their mothers, meaning that they didn't know how to behave properly when they reach maturity. The females, so the rejected female rats grew up to have less offspring themselves, and the offspring they did have, they showed no maternal instinct towards it all. So they just didn't that didn't... Didn't help with the homework. That's right. So it's sort of flanking out a math. Exactly. Oh, that's not on.

Starting point is 01:19:06 Because I mean, they never had it, they never had it shown to them so they didn't know how to do it, I guess. The males, so but no, instinct is interesting. I thought some of that was just in born, in born, in, in grain. In grain. Jason born.

Starting point is 01:19:21 That's it. How else? Quite different. Jason grain. Jason grain. My that's it. How else? Quite different. Jason Grane. Jason Grane. My like a butcher. Good on you, Jason. Jason, you know everyone would have thought we know what Jason Grane is going to be a baker,

Starting point is 01:19:34 but no. He really went fuck you, mum and dad. Yeah. I'm going to butcher. I want to butcher. I was born to butcher. Is that what they call it? I went to a butcher. I was born to a butcher. Is that what they call it?

Starting point is 01:19:47 As Johnny Grayne or as used to say, or whatever his name was, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, grew up and ended up not being interested in boning at all, right? They never got into fights. They spent all their time sleeping, eating, drinking, and grooming themselves. Sound familiar? Millennials? No, they're very interested in boning.

Starting point is 01:20:24 Yes, all right, it's that butt-butt with boning. interested in boning. Yes, all right, it's that butt with boning. With added boning. They were soon dubbed by Calhoun, his team, the beautiful ones. Oh. He thinks his guard doesn't he? Yeah, a little bit. So the beautiful ones ended up,

Starting point is 01:20:38 like because they didn't have any fights, so they just had this beautiful coat, they were grooming themselves all the time, very well-fed and all that sort of stuff So they were just they were just hot mice Hot mice with nothing to do with it. It's cool. I didn't attract it to these Yeah, did he ever think about Bowning the mice you're my beautiful ones

Starting point is 01:20:58 Who's my little beautiful mouse? Did he kiss the mice? Did he kiss the mice? He did mention that he didn he mention that in his report? He didn't mention that in his report, but he didn't mention that he didn't kiss the mice. Yeah, but he did describe in great detail what mouse kisses feel like. Yeah, he said, I don't know, I can't tell you how I got this information. But I have come across this information.

Starting point is 01:21:19 That's all I can say. And, oh my. I've already said too much. Oh, me, oh my. Mouse kisses. Between the beautiful males and the non-maternal females, the demise of the population was sealed. Breeding would never assume,

Starting point is 01:21:35 as these patterns of behavior were permanently changed. Conclusions were drawn at the time that the results were evidence of the dangers of an overpopulated world, and that when all social roles are filled, competition and stress experience will lead to a total breakdown of social behaviors leading to the demise of the population. I think I got that sweet, some of that sweetness from Wikipedia. That's a great line there, right? That's good.

Starting point is 01:22:00 Paltry. I just like the word demise, to be honest. Anytime. Demaise are great. Love that word. Calhoun finished his article with a warning about how the fate of these mice may end up being the fate of human kind, saying, for an animal so complex as man, there is no logical reason why a comparable sequence of events should not also lead to species extinction.

Starting point is 01:22:23 What because it happened to an animal that's not as complex as man? There's no logical reason, Dave. Read and weep. I'm weeping. His work has been lauded and criticized over the years, but there isn't no doubt it's been very influential. Still talked about. Certainly back then it was seen as being super important.

Starting point is 01:22:45 According to the Smithsonian website, the work tapped into the era's feeling of dread that crowded urban areas heralded the risk of moral decay. They also noted that a bunch of science fiction works like Soil and Green played on curl hoons ideas. Wow. So it's influential in artistic fields as well. Yes. Yeah. And the creative fields.

Starting point is 01:23:06 I quite like this Smithsonian article a lot. It seemed to be pretty level-headed about it. It was also quoting a lot from this article on I-09 Gizmodo by Esther Ingles' Arkle. And they were sort of talking about how interpretations of his work has changed. This is the way I'm going to say that. I'm going to say that. I'm going to say that. I'm going to say that. I'm going to say that. I'm going to say that.

Starting point is 01:23:32 I'm going to say that. I'm going to say that. I'm going to say that. I'm going to say that. I'm going to say that. I'm going to say that. I'm going to say that. I'm going to say that. out of those isolation and also being in enclosure. I mean, it's in the word enclosed.

Starting point is 01:23:47 Yeah, right. Because they can't get away. Can't get away. So normally, some of those ones that were sound of behavior weird, they would just move on. Right. So they can't really find a normal level because the excess rolls, they don't create new roles for

Starting point is 01:24:06 the bigger they get. Yeah, that's what it's like, prison, you know, it's not natural. I think that's why they actually around that time they figured out that prisons were the best place to do similar tests on humans. But they even found in that case, there's some some similarities but not really not enough that this is super important to relate it all to humans. So in her article, Inglycarchal wrote, instead of a population problem, one could argue that Universe 25 had a fair distribution problem, which maybe that you could relate to The world today. So that's the story. That's a report. I don't know. What do you get? Do you feel like you guys learned anything from those studies? Yeah, a lot of it rat. Right. I was listening the mating to the rat bit. Yeah. Yeah, which was the majority of it the mind you tuned out for the Mars

Starting point is 01:25:04 What what's a mouse? I mean, you said it in a enclosure. No, I do. I thought that was really interesting. I've never heard of those experiments. No, me though. Those things with experiments like that, you feel like they probably have a lot of benefit that you don't know about. But then you also think that's really fucked. Yes. Oh, yeah. It's so much. Fuck so much of that stuff, you know, of science experiments over the last couple hundred years, I've had some horrible downsides, but then also we've learned a lot of good things

Starting point is 01:25:35 at them. So it's difficult. Wars brought technology on further because that's worth the cost of a war. And I'm just impressed when people can like stick to studies like that for long periods of time. Just anyone who can do anything for a long period of time. Just with the woodtimes. I've committed issues.

Starting point is 01:25:50 Do you reckon you just put the mice in there and then walk away and forget about it? I can't holiday. They had viewing platforms, their rooms were built around so they could just watch them. I was wondering, oh my God. So they wouldn't see the humans that much.

Starting point is 01:26:01 No, but do you think they could? So I wasn't like they'd see the humans drop the food in, like there was machines to it. No, I they'd see the humans drop the food in like there was machines to it. No, I don't know. I assume that that may have been the humans getting right in there. I think they're all other things that had you had you factor that into your findings. Yeah, because aren't people, I don't know, to rats notice that the food's coming from like these weird gods like creatures. Yeah. creatures. There was also an interesting part I read about. In one of these, I think one of the middle ones

Starting point is 01:26:28 are in the rat things. If you, when you first went in there, you couldn't breathe. It took you quite a while to readjust to the stench. Oh, really? Yeah, cool. And that's where they work in every day. You've just become used to it, which doesn't feel like an ideal quality of air.

Starting point is 01:26:46 We bloody put up a new, don't we? You're going to make that very hard to edit out all of that. Success, Jess. Success. I do have a couple of quick fun facts which Jess, you know, they're both a role of the Darset, whether or a they're both a role of the dorses I was like the fun um but that's I mean that's why I like to play the game uh just tells me I'm an idiot aka I'm attempting fun facts

Starting point is 01:27:12 okay fun fact number one of two rory cal hoon so we're talking about today we're talking about another cal hoon john b cal hoon rory cal hoon was an american actor and name checked in the simpson's episode two dozen and one gray hounds Right where they have when they he's standing up and his ovens and Burns and Smithers are talking and Burns is going look at him standing there. He reminds me of what his name smells like. Oh, he's having some guests No, the one you know the one he stands

Starting point is 01:27:42 Rory Calhoun as an old American actor, which I never knew but I just couldn't stop thinking about Calhoun Anyway, he was not related to John B. Calhoun Wasn't even his Wasn't even in a Rory Calhoun's birth name Look at my face Do you think there was a fun fact I personally do any time you can bring up the Simpsons? Yeah, it was mean, I was probably a matter of the wrong judge.

Starting point is 01:28:07 No, I'm guessing that is not a fun fact. Pandering it at me. Come on, fact number two. Two of two. Bring it home strong. Number two. You always have your strongest one. Pandering.

Starting point is 01:28:18 Pandering. All right. Really good, Sim. Fun fact two. So have you got... Same number two. fun fact number two Have you guys heard of Rory kelton considered what the bee in John B. kelton stands for oh I don't know if you can it

Starting point is 01:28:38 You're not gonna get it. I've never heard of this name bump us I've never heard of this name. Bumpass. Bumpass. Say it again. Bumpass. Spell that. B-U-M-P-A-D-S. Oh my god. We've just discovered the best name ever. Bumpass. We've had some great names on this show. We've had so many good names.

Starting point is 01:28:58 That is Bumpass. Immediately. Bumpass, Kel Hoon. Immediately, he clipped every other name. Can't even think of any other funny ones, man. Matt, that is a Bumpass. Calhoun. Immediately, he eclipsed every other name. I didn't think of any other funny ones, man. Matt, that is a fun thing. Yes! Yes!

Starting point is 01:29:08 50%, 50%. Hey, that's a pass. Matt's a pass. Matt, please get the grise. Matt Bumpass, do it. And that is a miracle. That's good stuff. Good stuff, buddy.

Starting point is 01:29:21 That, of course, was voted for by some of our Patreon listeners. Yeah, that's right. You said two other topics were a bit more light-hearted. Yeah, the other two were about Steven Seagull and... Oh, I love him. Weird Al Yankovic. Hang on, I love Steven Seagull's early movies. I don't love him as a person. I probably should call him. I thought he was going to be fascinating. Weird Al Yankovic. We're Yankovic. Yankovic. He's cool. But yeah, today's topic, which I did enjoy it on some levels.

Starting point is 01:29:51 It was fascinating, but also real sad. There was some, it's been a dark time. I'm looking forward to hugging some people. I enjoy it. It's fascinating, definitely. Yes, which I think is exactly the word that Blake used. When he suggested it Blake a K cloud Straff's cat. I wonder if he's Kellyn's daughter. I wonder if he's Kellyn's daughter. I mean Blake lively is a woman

Starting point is 01:30:18 covering all bases there though. I appreciate that. Well, I mean two two bases. It's all your name. There's many of you. I've never gotten past second bases. Five and a third, Jesse. Well, I love it. I don't know what that means. I don't know that, don't. So you think about it any further?

Starting point is 01:30:40 So you think, Blake, for the suggestion, thanks, Blake. And we also, I thank the people on Patreon that voted for it. And we also would like to tell you that if you like the show, you can support the show through Patreon.com slash do go on pod. And in exchange, we'll give you some rewards and extra bonus stuff, including a bonus episode just before Christmas, we release the Krishmish bonus special. Krishmish. Krishmish, which is about the ULADS.

Starting point is 01:31:08 That's right, we cover the ULADS for the Patreon only feed, so if you support us and subscribe at patreon.com. So, I'll just do go on part. You get a chance to listen to that. And we answered a bunch of questions from some patrons about Christmas and Stiff. That was a good fun. And also, we'd like to thank people that support us through Patreon. And Matt, you got a couple of things there. Yeah, would you mind at all if I thanked from Suffolk? This is a great name, Lizzie Phillips.

Starting point is 01:31:35 That is a good name. That sounds like an Olympian. Oh, okay, Rockstar Olympian. Yeah. That's an overachiever, Lizzie Phillips. She's a Olympian first, because I feel like you retire from that early, you know. You can rock right to your 60s.

Starting point is 01:31:47 So she's an Olympic. I saw Paul MacAnail in the month he was rocking into his 70s, baby. Olympic swimmer turned guitarist. Shredder, yeah, she shreds. Man, man, man, man, man. Yeah. On your Lazy Phillips. Yeah, she plays a couple of them.

Starting point is 01:32:01 Because on your Lazy Phillips album. Yeah. Oh, good, good improv. I was just trying to, I was trying to figure out that riff that you were doing. I think it was a little bit. I didn't go my way. She shreds. Damn, no, no, no, no.

Starting point is 01:32:16 She's a that guy, cover act. The guy with the dick coming out of his pants. Lenny Kravitz. Lenny Kravitz. The dick coming out of his pants. I remember that Tom was dick coming out of his pants. He flash Kravitz. Lenny Kravitz. The dick coming out of his pants. I remember that time when he was dick coming out of his pants. He flashed it by accident. What a moment. I mean, in a way, don't we all have a dick coming out of our pants? I sure as hell do. I don't. Oh my god! I do! Everyone look away. I'd also love to think.

Starting point is 01:32:37 I'll do it. Dave, you're going to do something rap related to our patrons today. What? In the rap? give Lizzie a her name. I mean, we gave her a rock slash Olympian job topic. I think that's even better. What about we give them a... We give them a... In their utopia. Jobs in the rats society.

Starting point is 01:32:55 Okay, great. So she's the patron Olympian slash guitarist. Perfect. Good on you, Lizzie. I'd also love to thank Mike Bryson. That's another rock song. And this guy's a boxer, I reckon. Oh. This is Mike's title. No, I think it's thank Mike Bryson. That's another rock song. And this guy's a boxer I reckon. Oh.

Starting point is 01:33:07 It's a mic tie. No, I think it's just Mike Tyson. Mike Tyson? My brain's very complicated. Yeah, I think I was thinking Mike Tyson. Yeah, and he's a sports, another sports star there. He's from Phoenixville, Pennsylvania. Go, pens.

Starting point is 01:33:21 Go, penguins. Is that right? Yeah. Well, yeah, they're from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. Thank you, Mike May I thank some people I would love it if you could please so I would like to thank from Essex Charlotte Morrison another good name, but that's more like an author name. I think yeah, that's a best seller. Oh fuck yeah author name. I think. Yeah, that's the best seller. Oh, fuck yeah.

Starting point is 01:33:43 Not like a self-published. Like every rat in the society owns a copy. Of Charlotte, Morrison. Rat function. Rat think. What do you have that thing? Yep. Okay, and another good one. I think you shot from Brooklyn.

Starting point is 01:34:03 I'd like to think Adam King. Oh, I think he's on Soaks Keep giving him a massage No, Adam is the rat king Adam King. No, he's a rapper is in the Beastie boys from New York They had one of them is the king ad rock. Oh, yeah Brooklyn Bronx Queens and Statin from the something something to the top of Manhattan, Asia, Middle East, something in Latin, Black, white, New York, you make it happen. Thank you. You make it Adam. You make it Adam, Adam King. We did it.

Starting point is 01:34:37 I would like to thank not one, but two people at once here. We have one of our first Patreon power couples. Oh wow. Also from New York, from Belfast, New York. Huh. Didn't realize that there was a city town, suburb, in New York state called Belfast, but it is. And it is home to our Patreon Power Couple, Kendra and Eric Micolas. Power Couple. They need a power, ooh. Fell off the chair. They need a power couple name, Kendrick. Oh, that's good.

Starting point is 01:35:19 Kendrick, what is Kendrick? Kendrick Lamar. Lamar. No, sorry, I was gonna say what do they do in the rap groups? Oh, they're Insta-salips. Oh, yeah, I would've thought they'd be, they'd be pen-one to themselves.

Starting point is 01:35:29 Oh, yeah, big time. Oh, yeah. Velvet rope of the door. Oh, yeah, yeah. And if you try and go through the rope, Eric just opens his eyes. Hey, yeah, it's his eyes and his. You're a beautiful one. I know, just little wink.

Starting point is 01:35:41 Come on in. Thank you, thank you to our beautiful ones, Kendra and Eric. I would like to finally thank from Bradford on Aven. Near Shakespeare. Near Shakespeare. Near Shakespeare. Strapford upon Aven, I assume so. I would like to thank Jack Leschew.

Starting point is 01:36:04 Jack, oh he's. Jack Lesoux. He's a Monsieur. Oh, here. Yeah. Oh my God, stop. Oh my God, I'm a so. Oh my God, so much.

Starting point is 01:36:14 Shut up. Shut up. Yeah. That is so accurate. Have you ever watched the team queens? Have you ever watched the TV show? I haven't seen any, maybe. The real housewives of New Jersey,

Starting point is 01:36:23 which I have sat through a few episodes with my girlfriend. And they speak like that. We get it. You're not lonely like the rats. Jack! Can you hear how annoying that is? Oh my god, what's the show? You're, you're, it's hard to watch.

Starting point is 01:36:38 I won't. It's hard to watch. Jackless earth, missur. Yes, Jackless earth, from Bradford on Aven. Jackless earth, missur. Thank you Yes, Jackalessur, from Bradford on Avent, Jackalessur, the Missour. Thank you so much. We miss you. We we.

Starting point is 01:36:49 And thanks everyone that supports the show. Pepe. Pepe. Pepe. If you cannot afford at this time of your life to chip into the Patreon, that is totally fine. But what you could do for free is tell a friend about the show.

Starting point is 01:37:01 That would really help us out. I read some, sporadically I'll go in and read some of the iTunes reviews and they're so nice I just read a bunch of them the other day, so good. Yeah, it is very nice. I just listen, love you guys so much. Except you. No, even you. You know who you are.

Starting point is 01:37:21 You know what you do. Especially you. Especially you. You get out of here. You know what you do. Especially you. Especially you. You get out of here. You get it. Out of here. You get it out of here.

Starting point is 01:37:32 But yeah, that is legit, very nice, frustrated. And it only takes a minute or so for you to write out a couple of sentences and tell other people that might be perusing the charts as to why they should check it out. And let me get more listeners and we become the happiest rats in Rat world. Happy rats, rat world, rat rat happy. I'm dying, please help me. All right, yes, I'll cut you off there and I will I'll tell you that that's one of the

Starting point is 01:37:56 last things you'll say on this podcast for 2017. Oh, right. We will we will not be taking any time. We'll be back next week with another episode and it will be Yeah, yeah, see you next year What do you mean, did you oh Very good. Thank you my dad legit used to make that joke every year, and it's never not funny It's an anti-donna sketch that is is it oh, that's why I did the Broden voices right? I just think the person at voice. Right. I just think the Broden is the person at work going, I'm probably seeing a shoe. But it tickles me that joke. I look forward to it.

Starting point is 01:38:31 If you don't sign for my dad in text form these days. But you can get in contact with us anytime via Instagram, Twitter, Facebook, at dogoonpod, email dogoonpod.gmail.com. And we'll be back next year. Have a fun and safe new year's. And until then, I will say thank you and goodbye. Bye. Bye.

Starting point is 01:38:52 Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Starting point is 01:39:00 Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. This podcast is part of the Planet Broadcasting Network. Visit PlanetBcasting.com for more podcasts from our great mates. I mean, if you want, it's up to you. Should all the Quaintants be forgot and never brought to mind Should all the cranes

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Do Go On - 114 - The Mouse Universe Experiments

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