Do Go On - 164 - The Waco Siege

Episode Date: December 12, 2018

This week's topic is the Waco Siege. Beginning in early 1993 after an ill fated raid on a compound outside of Waco, Texas, the Waco Siege was an unprecedented and tragic event in United States history.Support the show and get rewards like bonus episodes: www.patreon.com/DoGoOnPod Submit a topic idea directly to the hat: dogoonpod.com/Submit-a-Topic Twitter: @DoGoOnPod Instagram: @DoGoOnPod Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/DoGoOnPod/ Email us: [e-mail] Book tickets to Matt's stand up show (in Perth, Adelaide, Brisbane and Melbourne) with the early bird discount code: dogoon via mattstewartcomedy.com/gigs  Check out our other podcasts: Book Cheat: https://omny.fm/shows/bookcheatPrime Mates: https://omny.fm/shows/prime-matesREFERENCES AND FURTHER READING:https://www.biography.com/people/david-koresh-9368416http://time.com/5115201/waco-siege-standoff-fbi-david-koresh/https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/01/waco-david-koreshhttp://articles.latimes.com/1993-03-02/news/mn-73_1_david-koreshhttps://www.aetv.com/real-crime/waco-siege-david-koresh-branch-davidians-facts-to-knowhttps://www.statesman.com/news/20180416/a-quarter-century-later-dark-theories-still-hover-over-waco-siegehttps://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/federal-agents-raid-the-branch-davidian-compound-in-waco-texashttps://www.vox.com/2018/4/19/17246732/waco-tragedy-explained-david-koresh-mount-carmel-branch-davidian-cult-25-year-anniversaryhttp://time.com/5115201/waco-siege-standoff-fbi-david-koresh/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nUAeG0FLLmAhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGT1F0jYhFwhttps://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2014/03/31/sacred-and-profane-4

Melbourne and Canada, we got exciting news for you. And we should also say this is 2026. Jess, what year is it? 2026. Thank God you're here. Right now, I'm in Melbourne doing my show with Serenji Amarna, 630 each night at the Cooper's Inn Hotel, having so much fun. We'd love to see you there.

Canada, we are visiting you in September this year. If you've somehow missed the news, we are heading up Vancouver, Calgary, Montreal, and Toronto for shows. That's going to be so much fun. Tickets for all this stuff, I believe, are online. And I'm here too. This podcast is part of the Planet Broadcasting Network. Visit planetbroadcasting.com for more podcasts from our great mates.

Welcome to another episode of Dugo One. My name is Dave Warnocky and I'm here with Matt Stewart and Jess Perkins. Hello, Dave. Hello, Dave. Guys, what a musical opening. Yeah, Matt and I have started a band. Okay. You know what else is a musical opening?

Your mum's butt. No, I'm regretting that. Well, you regretting taking my catchphrase. Yeah. Good. So that's something you say on the podcast. Yeah, I definitely have before. I mean, we've got do go on pod.com slash your mum's butt is a page on our website.

So I must have said it on air. But I do say it off air a lot. A lot. You say that. Too much. So much. So much. So much.

Which is also the name of our band. Yes. So much. Thank you. Thank you and Garnow West so much. Will you please accept this flyer to our upcoming Battle of the Bands gig? I'd love to support you in the battle. Being held in a primary school gymnasium.

Oh, I'm going to boo those little kids. No, the children won't be there. It'll be an after-hours thing. Oh, okay. I thought you were competing against 11-year-olds. I'm just having flashbacks to when I used to compete in Battle of the Bands. And they were always in a school gym. Right.

Did you ever win a Battle of the Bands? God, no. Really? But we were often the only all-girl band. Oh, that's great. Or occasionally the only band that had a girl in it. It was just like four teenage boys. That was probably competing against you.

Won a couple of battle of the band. Did you? Yeah, one time got given a giant novelty check. Cool. And then I was really annoyed to realize that that is not, that's not cashable. Oh, that is important. They take the check back and give you a real check. So why have, why get the big one made?

No, it's very nice. Because that would be expensive as well. Yeah, I guess it was. And at the time, it was big money. Between the four is $500. Whoa. Between the how many of you? Four.

That's pretty good. Four, that's a real small scar band. How many of you were on saxophone? Three out of four. Three out of four. And you're on trombone. Tennis sacks. Ten of sacks.

I don't count it as a real sax. Nah, that's way cooler than the other sacks. What do you call the other sacks? Normal sacks. Yeah, just regular sacks. Yeah. And again, Scar is the do-b-da-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-b-t one, right? Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely correct. As far as I understand it, but I am a musicologist, so I would understand it. Okay, so no more questions. Is that okay? Yep. Okay, great. Now, if this is the first time you listen to the show, we're about to start it, but I'm going to give my good friend Matt Stewart just a quick chance to plug his upcoming stand-up comedy shows.

Oh, cool. Thank you. Yes, I'm touring my new show, Bone Dry. and it's coming to Perth, Adelaide, Brisbane and Melbourne, and maybe other places as well. You can find out details for all of those at matthewartcom.com slash gigs. And if you use the code, do go on. There's an early bird discount for at least the time being, I believe.

I don't know when it runs out, but it's definitely live now because I was told that yesterday. So act today, not tomorrow. Yeah. Yeah. But preferably yesterday when Matt was. told. Yes, definitely. Also, very quick plug for Dave's podcast bookcheat comes out bi-weekly, which means every two weeks, I think. That is. So it comes up, basically, I'm going to just make it twice a month because some months have five Tuesdays. But, quick plug for it. Got the Christmas special

coming up next week, and you two are the guests on it. I have forgotten that. It was such, I think it was one of the silliest podcasts I've ever been involved in. And I apologize, I apologize profusely to you And I apologize profusely to you I apologize to you too Jess Was I a bit feral on that one?

Nah, you were so funny Dave Fairly funny Okay My usual And this week's Primates Features a comedy hero of mine

I still can't really believe He came on Tony Martin No The Tony Martin He was sitting in this studio And another comedy hero Josh Earl

Oh my God The Josh Earl. Yes. What a great combo. And it was so much fun. A lot of the podcast was me and Josh going, and Tony,

what about the time you did this? Can you tell us a bit about that? That's the best. And occasionally he'd be like, oh, yeah, there was sort of, and he'd be trying to tie it back into primates. It's like, don't worry about that anymore. Yeah.

Get rid of the premise, Tony. Just give us your sweet stories. Nothing matters anymore that you're here, Tony. I can't wait to listen to me. Why are you here, Tony? Because I kind of, I hope to listen to me. and hear Matt sort of just be like, oh, I'll try and edit that out, but I won't be able to get all of that out.

That's so cute. So that comes out tomorrow. So, so cool. I still, yeah, it still seems pretty surreal to me. Yeah, that is wild. And awesome. So cool. Well, also, I've got news.

Oh, please. This week at my house. Yeah. I plugged in my old Wii and played a bit of Mario Kart. That is fun. So that'll be, yeah, you guys can check that out. Like a new, like, I believe Twitch. Is that where people stream video?

Yeah, fuck it. I'm a gamer now. I'm a full on. You're going all in. I'm a gamer. Also, I tried to buy different Wii games. I don't make new games for Wii anymore. You're a retro gamer.

Yeah, I'm a retro gamer. Okay? Today I googled how to unlock new levels on Mario Kart Wii. That's, I can't even understand that kind of game at all. I know. That's so old. I mean, did you have to get a converter for that? Anyway, I'm just saying we've all got stuff going on.

Yeah, we totally do. Now we've stopped plugging our stuff going on. Matt, let's get into the show because you said it's going to be a long one, but a fun one and a great one. I think this may be the longest report I've ever written. I've done more research, I think, than ever before. What's this like two and a half pages? Great. I honestly have spent all week with this, and it's, I'm a bit nervous about it.

Anyway, let's get into it, and then we can talk a bit more about it. The way this show works are those tuning in for the first time. We each take it in turns, each episode and research topic and do a report on it. The other two don't know what that topic is, so Dave and Jess don't know what I'm about to tell them about. And we get on a topic with a question. The question is, the branch Davidians were a Christian sect at the center of which tragic 1990s siege? 1990s siege?

Siege. Oh, I think I've... Dave's clutching. his head. That's ever good. Because I didn't know anything about this. I put this up to the vote. Seven different topics I put up to the patrons for a vote.

This beats a serial killer. Wow. Is it the, because I've put it up for a vote as well before and it just came second. Right. Interesting. Is it the Waco siege? It is the Waco siege.

If I was in your position, my guess would have been under siege to the Oh, this time it's personal. Underseech 2. What is it called? It's the one on the train. It's called, oh, Dark Territory. That's the number of Undersech 2, dark territory. Because the whole concept is they're on a train that's out of control.

It's going to smash into another train that's filled with oil. But they're on the other side of a mountain, so they're in dark territory and they can't contact anyone. Wait. And so the first one was on a naval ship? Yeah, and they took that inland. I love it. Well, that's a wild jet. They did a reverse.

Speed. Yeah, speed went the other direction. They went, anyway, that's too much fun, and we should talk more about that off the pod. This has been suggested by a lot of people. I just did a quick browse through, so sorry if I miss your name, but it was suggested by, how do you say C-I-A-N? Is that Sean? I'm going to say Sean Lanigan, David James Gaskill, Shamus Dobbs, Gunnar Goodell.

What a name. Wow. Nathan West Salah. Adam Stoltz, thank you, Adam, for having a pronounceable name. Anthony, thanks for not having a surname, Ryan Campbell and Tessa Stickland. Awesome. So it's been a Molto Benny requested. That means many good requested.

All right, well, let's get stuck in. I should say this is a very contentious event. Still, over 25 years later, people are still debating what really happened, that sort of stuff. So I'm going to tell the story as best as I can. If you know a lot about it, you're probably going to disagree with stuff, but just know that I'm having a bloody go. And yeah, I think if you feel passionate about this, maybe you shouldn't listen to this.

Cool. All right. Well, I'm turning off because I'm really passionate. Okay, well, fair warning, Dave. If you're going to keep those headphones on, enter at your own risk. The key man in the Waco siege is a man. Do, would you remember this day? No, because I only briefly looked into it and then it came second.

So I was like, put that back in the hat. Yeah, I don't, obviously, because it all came to a head in the early 90s. So you wouldn't, I don't remember it. Yeah, not on the news or anything. I'm sure you wouldn't. But it was huge worldwide news anyway. The key man in the Waco siege is David Koresh. He's the leader of a cult at the center of the Waker siege.

That cult being the branched vividians, maybe some people, say it's not a cult it's just it's an offshoot of a religion depending on which side of it you're on you're a offshed of a big a cult cult or it's just a Christian religion every every religion starts as a cult if you're going to call a small religion a cult anyway right so that's one thing I'm sure some people anyway I'm going to try not to second guess everything I say Koresh was born Vernon Wayne Howell Vernon it took because there's an all-time great st. Kilda player he's a Hall of Fame are called Verdon Howl.

And I'm like, what are the odds? But it's slightly different. So no big deal. Vernon, though. Vernon? I think classic, can you believe? No. He changed his name to David.

You watched a lot of Harry Potter lately. I did. I watched all of it. Uncle Vernon. What is he? The red guys, dad. Oh, boy. I was going to say,

Lee Vernon, Dursley. Yeah. Is the only Vernon I think I know. I don't know. It's a great name. Great name. Very close to vermin. Yeah.

Oh, I see why she did it. Is he a rat? Yeah. He's the rat man. He's a rat man. Is he the rat man? And a scat man. Do me da bha.

So he was born to mother Bonnie Clark on August the 17th, 1959 in Houston, Texas. Bonnie was only 14 or 15 when she gave birth. And the father, who was 18-year-old Bobby Wainhow, left before Vernon. and was born, meaning he never met his dad. He didn't change his name until much later, but for ease, I'll just start calling him Kresh from here. Koresh spent many of his early years in the care of his grandparents. Obviously, his mum was very young, and I guess that was one of the reasons why he was

basically brought up by his grandparents. And he attended a seventh-day Adventist church, which is what the Davidians split off from. he studied the Bible and had it memorized by his teenage years. I watched a bunch of documentaries. His mom is in a lot of them, and she talks about how he went through and he memorized the New Testament by the age. I think it was like the age of eight or something.

Like legitimately memorized. Well, that's how they made it sound. Page six, top left. First word. Greg. Damn, he's good. I've written Greg at the top of every page. My name's Greg.

my Bible. He dropped out of school to take up carpentry. I'm another guy who dropped out of school to take up carpentry. That's my friend Matthew Flanagan. He actually didn't drop out. He did it after year 12 anyway. It doesn't matter. In his 20s, he moved out of...

Matthew Flanagan or Vernon? No, we're back to Vernon. In his 20s, he moved out to L.A. to try to make it as a rock star. It was a muso. Love shredding on. the guitar. Me-a-min-me-da-mow.

Okay, so he's got a few hobbies going on then. He's got a lot of, you know, he's the Bible, carpentry, guitar. I was going to say his other hobbies are religion, which I don't think any devoutly religious person would refer to it as a hobby. Yeah, that might be. What are your hobbies? Jesus. Yeah, I dabble in a little bit of the Bible.

Now on the side, obviously my main, I get my main crust from Carpentry. than out on the side. It was a weekend. Your side hustle is the Bible. Yeah. But he really was like a Bible guru. He wasn't very good at studying in the traditional sense. Probably had dyslexia, got teased a lot at school.

He found school years very lonely. But he loved the Bible. He didn't make it as a rock star. And before long, returned to Texas and joined the Seventh-day Adventists. Is that a band or? Yes, they were a scat band. They sound a little bit like... Oh, tennis sax.

Yeah. My favorite kind. I wanted to do something that wasn't the thing I've done twice. I was trying to do a switcheroo. And the only other sound I could think of... It was a different saxophone. Yeah. I guess the other thing is sound you make isn't a saxophone, is it?

No. It's the scatman. It's a scat man. Do you guys remember the proud man in our lives last month when we were on Baker Street in London and we were listening to Baker Street. What a moment. Dave, I'll never forget that.

Play on an iPhone. Outside the Sherlock Holmes Museum. Some people are having photos of Sherlock Holmes Museum. And we've got... I'm laughing about it. We're real smart. We're all smart people. That's the song's the name of the street run.

We had a good old time. we love and love Very good fun So he joined the seven day Advantage Yes that's right So he was getting into an organised church But he didn't get on with the church elders

And was kicked out after a while Apparently he had a vision That he read a passage of the Bible When he was thinking about the preacher's daughter And he's like This is a sign that I'm meant to be with her from God And he went and he talked the pastor or whatever and it's like yeah god wants me to be with your daughter oh okay and the

father's like no i don't think that's what god's saying and he's like nah it is and he wouldn't drop it and then he yeah eventually got kicked out that's one did anybody consult her at all or you just went just go straight to dad and dad go straight to no well i mean look i think i don't look i don't i don't i read that that's just one version of events but you read and who are you thinking of when you were reading that? I don't. But, I mean, if you do believe in God, I reckon that probably does mean that if there is an all-powerful God

and he says, date the daughter, just check in with the priest. Look, I don't know. I don't know. God's never reached out to me like that. Anyway, let's go back to it. Exactly. Let's go back to the 1930s when according to history.com, a disgruntled member of the Seventh-day Adventist Church named Victor Hutef broke away and founded the Davidian movement.

So there's a whole other story, but I won't go into it, but he fought with Seventh-day Adventist elders. He's like, we're losing track of what we should be doing here. He wrote a thesis about it. They said they'd get back to him. A lot of them never replied. One guy did saying, no, you're on the wrong track, mate. It doesn't, you're barking up the wrong bush sort of thing. They were crowed in the Simpsons even back then.

It's the smartest thing you ever said. So he went, all right, I'm going to start my own thing, which he did. When he died, a man named Ben Rodin led an offshoot of that movement, known as the Branch Davidians. And by 1962, he took over Hutef's original settlement at Mount Carmel. near Waco. Who took it over, sorry? Kareh.

Ben Roden. Oh, Rodin, sorry. Karrash is at this stage, he's a young, just a youngster. Gotcha. But Roden's taking it over in Waco. Yes, I believe so. The branches, teachings,

including that the Bible is literally the Word of God, and they started to find clues about the apocalypse and the second coming of Christ. So they really took everything literally, and they thought that all the meaning of life and the secrets of everything were basically in the words of the buyers. It sounds like they weren't really taking it literally

because they were looking for hidden messages. Yeah, okay. That's true. Yeah, it's saying by that. In 1978, Ben Rodin died, and his wife Lois took over as leader of the branch. Lois. Yeah, that's the leader I could get behind.

Well, so could Koresh because three years later, he arrived. Now, 22, he got to. of Mount Carmel, according to an article in the New Yorker, he arrived in a yellow Buick. It's a bit of a bit of flavor there. It's a bit of extra detail. You don't necessarily need to know. I like that I know it. Yeah, look, now you've got a picture in your head.

Yeah, it's got a circle on the roof for some reason. Close your eyes, Dave. What else do you see? He's got fluffy dice hanging from the review mirror? What color are they? Red with white dots. Yep. What else do you see?

He's got a mullet? Yes, he does. Okay. He wears sunglasses? Yes. Even at night? Yeah, that sounds like him. Well, he wears sunglasses-type glasses, but with seen-glass lenses.

So you're close. Okay, and he's listening to country music. Well, I mean, probably. I mean, you're telling me. Well, did you go travel back there? Yeah, I feel like a higher power was reaching out just then. All right, mate. Do you think you're having a...

I've got to go talk to the priest about. I've got to talk to the priest about something. So he rocked up in his... Yellow Buick as another in a long line of disenchanted Seventh-day Adventist in search for a purer church. It was not slick or charismatic. This is all words from the New Yorker. Not in the conventional sense anyway. Much like our Jess Perkins.

Hey! I am slick though. But not in the conventional sense. Yeah. I'm unconventionally slick in that I'm very oily. How much of this description do you relate to? It was thin with long, wavy, dark hair. and a gentle manner.

I'm, are you, I, I, I'm flustered that you called me thin. I'm saying, look, you got a long wave of your hair, you got a gentle manner. You're hyperfinalating over there? A little bit. He was good with engines and guns and he played in a rock band. Yes, you entered a battle to the bands and lost. His formal education was limited. His vocabulary, which is,

There's a word I struggle with, unfortunately. His vocabulary was full of words of his own invention. Which I like. Hey, Shakespeare made up a lot of words too. Exactly. That we still use. Hey, Shakespeare made up a lot. Hey.

That was just a couple of them. That's his defence. Remember in Hammond when he was like, hey, oh, hey, oh. Hey, I'm talking to a ghost here. Hey, look at me holding a skull over here. Yeah, I know the works of the bar. I'm going to see 12th night next week. Oh, I saw it a couple of weeks ago.

Did you? I did. How much and I'm going to enjoy it? Melbourne Theatre Company? I will say it is a bit of a delightful rump. Very silly, but 12th night is very silly. I tell you what, you two and your affluent East weekend behaviours. Oh, just off to see some high feet.

You know what they don't tell? Did you know this? That Colin Hay for a minute work is in it. Get fucked. I'm not kidding. I was watching, so it's a very musical Shakespeare. So I've seen it a couple of times and both times I put music in. They're playing a lot.

He's playing a jester type. Very funny. This is Scottish. I'm sitting in the second row. I was very close, but he's got lots of makeup on. And I'm thinking on myself, that guy looks a lot like Colin Hay. But surely they would have advertised the show as having Colin Hay if Colin Hay was in it. Walking to the foyer, there is people having programs.

And there's Colin Hay. That is awesome. Frank Woodley's in it? I'm so excited. The reason we got tickets over a year ago is because it was going to be Jeffrey Rush. And then Jeffrey Rush has been in court a lot lately. So he's not playing it, but Frank Woodley is. So I'm still pretty excited, to be honest.

Frank Woodley and Colin Hay. Why didn't they advertise Colin Hay? I have no idea. Whoa! Sorry to derail. Sorry that ruined a surprise for you. No. Does he sing?

Does he sing? Yeah, lots of singing. So I would, I reckon I would have recognised his voice. Yeah, that's exactly the song I have ever had. No, he does a lot of, he plays a 12-string guitar. Very nice. Fuck yeah. Oh, I'm so excited.

I would have thought it be a lute or something. There is a bit of sort of lute action in the music. Lute on, son. Sorry to derail you then, Maddie, please. That's exciting. Why did I get, oh, because we're talking about Hamlet's saying, Hey! It sounds like they're making Shakespeare fun.

Woodley and that does sound great. Yeah. Which one's 12th night? Is that the one with the one? the tempest? Very good. It's, uh, it's, it's,

uh, it's, two twins. Uh, two twins. That wash up on a, perfect number of twins in my book. Yes, that wash up on a beach in there,

even though different gender's very, uh, identical and they swap. Oh, right. I'm a boy playing a girl. Yeah, that kind of thing.

And if no one can, it's, because it's quite, it's a bit of a fast, but they can't believe it. Oh my goodness. But you look exactly like him. But you're saying you're a girl.

Oh my goodness. But you know, you go along with a fan. It's a bit of fun. It's a bit fun. Yeah. Shakespeare plays are meant to be stupid and mocked. I'm sorry that we're taking in.

That's why he wrote them. Some culture in the cultural hub of Australia, Melbourne. Yeah. Sorry about that. I'm sorry. Fucking Shane Bourne named his kid Mel. That feels like something Shane Bourne would do, you know? Melbourne.

I think we're saying a little something like this. Hello, welcome to thank God you're here. I'm Shane Bourne. That's my impression of Shane Bourne. That's spot on. It's not bad. Yeah, okay. Still going on this description of...

Oh, great. Oh, sorry. So he's thin, not charismatic, but he's making up words. He wore dirty jeans, t-shirts and sneakers, and after-study sessions. Oh, my God. Jess is showing us her filthy pants.

I was showing you that I'm wearing sneakers. I assumed you already knew I was wearing jeans because you could see them. You were wearing a t-shirt, jeans and sneakers. Yes. I'm always in those three things. Well, is this true of you? After study sessions would gather some of the other young men and head into Waco to drink beers and play some rock and roll.

That sounds like me. Okay, so he's a party dude. What about rock and roll by day? Like sometimes some accounts talk about him like that and other ones other times. Anyway, we'll get through that. The New Yorker article goes on to say, though, that when it came to the Bible, he was without peer.

one of the Davidians later wrote that the first few times he heard Koresh speak, he was convinced that this was of God and that Koresh made scripture come alive. He showed that all of the prophets in the Bible were writing more for our day than for their own time. So when he talked about it, people were like, yeah, this speaks to me now. And that same guy talked about it when Lois was in charge and her teachings and they were like, I don't know about this. And then Koresh came in and he was like, well, this is all, this is talking to me. Apparently, just have really had someone about him.

But he's not that charismatic off book. But as soon as he starts reading the Bible, people are like, okay. He's unconventionally charismatic. And he just, but people who are looking for answers, they really find stuff with him. And not like, not idiots who don't know anything about the Bible or anything. These are people who are already searching. and making their way through different, like I read about people who were trying all these different sects of Christianity

before finding Qarash and being like, wow, this guy, this guy has got me. It was Koresh's way with the Bible that saw him become a popular member of the church and along the way become romantically involved with its 60-something-year-old leader, Lois Rodin. Oh, wow, he's gone with a leader. According to AETV.com, he reportedly told, her, he was destined to father a child with her, which I don't think happened. Because she was over 60. Yeah, but I think they were, they had a crack, I believe.

But I don't believe there was a child born. Because her twice, he's been wrong with destiny so far. In the following years, Lois also passed away and her son, George Rodin, took over. A battle for control of the sect flared up between George and Koresh. Apparently George didn't appreciate Koresh's relationship with his mum. Right. Was George? Amongst other things.

Is George older than Koresh? I don't know this to sure, but I picture them to be of a similar age. But maybe George might have been, was probably a little bit older. Can I imagine. And you're getting him feeling that there's a few of these members, or it's pretty exclusive at this stage? It varies, but it's people are sort of coming and going. People are moving over. But he's also, I'll talk about it a little bit, but he travels.

He goes all around the world talking to people about this. But recruiting time? And so it's a very international flock at Mount Carmel. An article in the LA Times from 1993, which I think was written during the siege, tried to piece together at Quresh's story from interviews. And they stated that at one point in the late 80s, Koresh split from the group at Mount Carmel and took his followers to Palestine in Texas,

where they lived in buses and primitive shacks. So for a little while he's like there was a bit of a, there was a rupture and he goes, all right, people who were with me were going out to this other town in Texas and we're going to hang out here for a while. And they live there for a bit. But they say he returned to stake his claim on the Waco property and ended up engaging in a gun battle with the then leader George Roden. Whoa. Didn't see that coming. Yeah, I read a few. Like everyone who reported on it, it was often a throwaway line in these articles on this story because I guess they're trying to get to the, the bigger story, which we're on the way to as well.

But yeah, I was like, well, that's wild. In one version of it I read, one of, I think George said to Koresh, let's see who can bring a body back from the dead. Then you'll, we'll know who's the real leader. Right. Is anyone claim to be able to do that? No, I don't think he was like, yeah, it's like, this is from history.com. In a gun battle in late 1987, George Rodin was shot in the head and chest and Koresh.

seven followers went on trial for attempted murder. The seven other men were acquitted and Koresh's case ended in a mistrial. So Koresh was a free man. Right. And you say attempted murder. So he's not, he didn't die. He didn't die, no. Shot in the head.

And chest. That's amazing. Yeah. And then he ended up. Oh, sorry. The third being the butt. Yeah. Head chest and butt.

Two of the big three. He, he ended up getting in trouble for other things, George Roden. So he was off, off the scene. Through the 80s and into the. early 90s, Koresh continued to travel to recruit followers and set himself up in a number of locations, often in California. One man who was introduced to Koresh when he was out recruiting talked to their meeting. He didn't get involved, but he remembered the brief meeting saying,

the night I met Koresh, he asked me, would you die for Christ? I said, I guess so. He said, would you kill for him? I said no. And he turned to my friend and said, hey, you just brought me another weak Christian. All right. At some point around 1986 or 87, Kresh lived in San Bernardino in California. There he is said to have lived

a strictly biblical life, as in strictly observing biblical teachings, including even cautioning a friend against laughing and also observing Friday night through Sunday night Sabbath, which is a long Sabbath. That laughing one,

I'm not sure where that comes from because it sounds like for the most part, generally that's not how he was. He was, everyone was... He was having a good time. Jeez, it depends on who you're talking to, though. On one side, he was there as like full psychopath and other people like, no, he was a, you know, he was a nice guy for the most part. You just, yeah, depending on who you're hearing from.

He just told people to stop laughing. Yeah, which is a bit of an odd one. The Times article also suggests he was seen driving expensive cars and riding a Harley Davidson motorcycle to bars like the Whiskey a go-go and the Roxy on sunset strip parting with other musicians. God intended it. Yeah, I don't remember. Harley Davidson.

Reading in the Bible, thou shall not ride a hog. That shall not be a badass on two wheels. Get him a segue way. In the following years, he set up a house in Levern in California where he took multiple wives. and there there were accusations that some of those were underage. Robin Buns, sorry, one of the wives. Robin Bunn's.

Robin Bunn. What are you been up to? Just Robin Buns. So there was an inquiry into the underage relationships there and nothing came of it. But one of the wives, one of the women who was with, who was an older lady, I believe, of age, Robin Buns accused him of stealing their son. And she went to the cops and they intervened and brought the boy back to her. So there's, you know, slightly weird things going on.

She described Koresh as charismatic and said, unless he got on his bad side, he's a very nice person, adding that he was only ever verbally abusive, never physical. Oh. Except that time he shot a guy on the head and chest. Yeah, well, I mean, that was in a fight. I don't know. That, yeah, that's such a weird.

It feels like in any other story, I'd be building up to that gunfight. Totally. But then this is just like a little footnote as I cruise through. Which makes me think some crazy shit's going to happen later. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Koresh traveled around the world to preach, including through the USA, Israel, Britain and Australia. He spent time here in Melbourne, even, I believe.

He preached that he was a prophet who communicated with God. And he prophesized about the second coming. of Christ and the imminent end of the world. Whilst in Australia, he recruited a woman named Mary Smith. She travelled to California to spend time with Koresh at the Laverne house. She has since described Koresh as a man who appeared to be growing more and more irrational as time went on, saying that when she first met him in Australia, he was quite gentle and mild-mannered.

But the last time she saw him in Laverne, he was ranting and roaring and hitting a bed with a boat paddle, saying that. he would use the paddle to spank both adults and children. Okay. The transition to nut job is complete. Yeah. And that's something that I saw other people on some docos talking about it. Like he would not just, he would spank children at the houses he kept, but also, yeah,

he would punish adults with spanking as well. I shouldn't laugh at that. It's just a funny visual. Yeah, boat paddle. It's all a bit odd. So we jump. It's a bit of spanking. Between cultish friends.

It's fine. So he jumped around a bit, collecting followers as he went. But by the 90s, he was well in truly in control of the branch of Vidians leadership at Mount Carmel with Rodan out of the way. And by now had legally changed his name to David Quresh, apparently. History.com states that Quresh is the Hebrew translation of Cyrus, the Persian king who conquered Babylon and allowed the Jews to return to Israel. I saw in a documentary, uh, Koresh talking about it himself, though, and he goes, do you know what Koresh means?

And they're like, no, he goes, it means death, which is something. That's a different take. Uh, Koresh, I guess, but, I'm David Death is what he's saying there. Both could be true, I guess. Hello, I'm Davey Death. Sounds like, uh, like a daring magician. Davy Death. Ooh.

Dund, dun, sparks, sparks, dun, dun, d'n, knives. Yeah. So that's Dave's new side project. David Death. How are we all doing? No laughing. I will spank you with this paddle. Okay.

And this mattress is going to get a punch in. They make me angry. Don't. Now, a volunteer. Nobody. Okay, guys, this is supposed to be a fun magic show. What? I'm holding a knife and I've threatened.

to punch you. Come on. I did say, like, I just realized I said, I quoted someone saying he never got violent. And I reckon maybe the next sentence I talked about how he spanked adults and children. Maybe that was from her experience. She was saying he never got violent to me as his partner. They're not threatened me with verbal stuff. And he did spank me, but it was a different kind of spanking.

And it was consensual. And I liked it. That's her talking. That's just reading between the lines. They're talking through you? There are, I mean, there's so many. contradictions the whole way through this. Koresh now had around

100 followers living with him. Some say up around 150 at the Mount Carmel compound outside of Waco. So it's called Waco because it's the whole thing's called the Waco siege because the next biggest town nearby is Waco. Right.

They're at this place. They've named themselves Mount Carmel. How was he able to recruit so many people to live in this remote location? Well, Drew Doddle that's a great name. who created, there was a TV miniseries. I think maybe what brought this back to everyone's, sorry, on the delay there, Bob,

Drew is a very good name. There was a, he created a TV mini series called Waco that aired earlier this year. And I think that's maybe why a lot of people potentially were suggesting. This is Drew made the series. Drew Doddle with his brother. Drew shortfall, Drusifer. Drusifer Doddling. So I was laughing over here.

Drusville. Have a good chuckle at a thing you thought. So Drusiver Drusiva doddle made a documentary. No, not a documentary. A dramatization miniseries. Right. Called Waco for cable TV in America. It was quite a big budget thing and got a lot of attention.

It went past me without notice. I'm guessing you're... I'm a big budget thing and I get a lot of attention. That's true. That is very true. But never enough. Never enough. Can someone give Jess some attention?

Dave, please. I won't look at her. Dave. I need this. I'm afraid. Still closing my eyes and imagining him in that Buick. Tell us, what else can you see? That mallet is flying.

What colour is the upholstery on the interior? It's a tan. Okay. Tan, and it's got a bench seat in the back. So if you weren't strapped in around the corners, you'd be all mushing into each other. Mushing? Yeah.

Wow. Is that opposed to it like any other color? But, you know, I suppose. No, this is different. So anyway, Doddle or Doubtle, he spoke to Vanity Fair earlier this year saying, when they were like, how did he recruit all this people? He said, yeah, this appealing, he was just a very personable guy. But one thing that surprised me is just how knowledgeable he was.

A lot of followers first became familiar with David through these bootleg cassette tapes that were being passed around in biblical circles. They would hear these tapes and say, wow, this guy's interpretation of scripture and the book of Revelation in particular is unlike anything I've ever heard. So conversational. Wow. Hey, Jenny, have you heard this new tape? No, what is it?

It's unlike anything I've ever heard. Is this the drama? The high budget thing? A scene from it? Yeah. Montage of humoricreating people. Just people on the beach, like, listing on their little walkments? People, and people have said that maybe that, that mini-series, they were like,

they wanted to explore, like, how does someone get to have 150 people sort of living under them like that? And they're like, obviously, there's got to be something about him. So they were exploring that more. And some people say, well, they're really humanising this guy. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cause a lot of suffering. Sure, sure, but I mean, there's got to be, before the suffering, there's got to be reasons for people to live with them.

Yes, well, that's right. I think nothing's black and white, right? This story, more than anything. A zebra's. That's very good point. I always forget about the zebra. Your shirt that you're wearing right now is black and white. I feel like a real fool.

All right, apart from this shirt and zebras. Newspapers before colour printing came in. What about the green guard? Well played. Check, mate. Oh no, chessboards. Black and white TVs are black and white. What else is black and white?

That's about it. I'll get back to you on that one. Everything else. What about shades of grey? Hmm. Think about it. Yes, but how many shades of grey? 49.

Nice. Dave, you know how I am with numbers? I knew that would set you off. That's why I did. it. One more. I cause trouble. But you quite enjoy the number 69.

That's for different reasons. You're always saying it's a nice number. But I guess it is sort of round as 313s. It's probably somebody like about it. What? It is not 313s. Fuck. It's 39.

What is it? How many 13s is it? It's no amount of 13s. It's 323s. 323s. Oh, I do like that. I say 23 funny, Dave. Stop teasing me about it.

313s plus 10 each. I say 23 like 13. When I say 23, that's my brain actually saying dibidi-doo. So it's a very complicated system. But if I think dib-di-do, my mouth says 23. If I think 13, I say 23. All right. It's not right, is it?

I reckon if you started a cult, everyone would join. Yeah, you're so charismatic. I'd move across the world. I've got to tell you, I don't know how charismatic someone would have to be to make. I don't know. I imagine they're living in not the most comfortable conditions, 150 people. But they don't think they've planned for the infrastructure probably for beautiful onsuits and such. I think it's not too bad.

I think it's a pretty nicely built place. Again, depending on who you talk to, some people are like, Everyone was so happy. It was quite a nice place to live. And other people like, like often a relative of someone who was in there, though, like it was,

you know, they were brainwashed. Some people who are still around say, no, it was different from that. Others are like who have got out of like, it was a nightmare. Just like how many different versions of the same reality is fascinating in

itself. Anyway, wow, this guy's interpretation of, scripture and the book of Revelation in particular is unlike anything I've ever seen or heard. They had to go to Waco to listen to this guy speak. It was like he was a biblical savant. So that's me finishing that great Drew Dowell.

Yeah, right, right. Quote. They simply had to. They had to. And they did. I mean, people literally like about a quarter of the people there, I think, or maybe a bit less than that were from the UK. There were definitely quite a few Australians.

There were people from all around, all over America. It was a real mix of people, ages, races, countries, everything was just a big mix. And everyone, apparently life there was at night, they'd all sit in a room and they'd talk about the Bible. Sometimes for six hours, sometimes for eight hours, sometimes for 14 hours. And they'd just debate. It wasn't like he was preaching saying this is how it is, apparently. Apparently, there was a lot of discussion. People were able to question him.

And they just sat around, according to the people who would speak positive. of the time, just discussing the Bible. That sounds awful to me. And I'm not talking specifically about the Bible part. That's fine. Just sitting for that long. Sitting and talking for that long. About anything.

End of the night. No, I need, I am recently discovered from a internet quiz and introverted extrovert. Oh. Which means I need my time. I need to back off. You can do both. Yeah.

Well, yeah, no, I appear extroverted, but I'm actually... Oh, yeah. I believe that. Thank you. Yeah. I believe in you. That sounds like that sounds like that's nutted you. An internet quiz has got you.

It fucking nailed me. And then from there, elistical. Yeah. And I could relate to all of them. And I thought, oh my God, I finally understand me. Yeah. So 14 hours of just being around other people. Oh, man.

Exhausting. No. No. Yeah. Need to walk away for a bit, please. Yeah. Zapping. Zapping.

Zapping. Zapping my energy. They're taking it all from me and they're not giving anything back. Sorry for hitting your microphone, Dave. You said it like you weren't sorry. Yeah, I was just really worked up. I'm really sorry. Are you okay?

Do you need a break from this? Maybe. You introvert. Back in 1984, Koresh had married a teenage branch Davidian named Rachel Jones. And together they had two. children. He has had so many wives, though, through the story and so many children that it's hard to keep up. But I think Rachel Jones might be his only legal wife. Sounds like he had at least a dozen kids with multiple women. But didn't actually sort of go through the ceremony of marrying them?

Just legally, probably. Yeah, I don't think you could in America marry multiple wives. And that's why I say legal wife, because according to biography.com, His teachings included the practice of spiritual weddings, so not legal weddings, spiritual weddings, which enabled him to bed God chosen female followers of all ages. And with those followers, he fathered, you know. Lots of kids. Malto kids over.

What does that mean? That means very good kids. Right. And many of them. Many. Nice. Very many kids. Did they know what was causing?

Yes. Yes. Spiritual weddings. Yeah. I think it was bending rules. In interviews with Branch Civilians, they talked about how it made them feel special to be chosen by Koresh to be their wife

because it was like God was choosing them himself. And yeah, this is where it gets particularly a bit fucked because he, it wasn't just adult women. It sounds like he was potentially grooming quite young girls and marrying them like 12. I feel like I should make it pretty clear. He was fucked. Like, yeah.

There's 17 and 11 months. I could still, not great, but it's like, okay. But 12. Apparently in Texas at the time, I believe that I'm pretty sure I read that with parental consent, I think 15 was the legal age. Whoa. With parental consent. That's still

Which I think he Because of Because his followers were so with him This went like these women We're talking about the husband and wife Have moved there to learn He's gone I'm going to marry your wife

You're a celibate now And that would happen And the and the husbands would be like You know, okay Oh my God Well he they saw him as You know Some sort of a prophet

And I'm working directly through God this is what God wants. Yeah. It's very, like, this is something a lot of people talk about. Like, it's very, it's hard. Like, most people, like, hear this and go, I don't understand it. And I'm like, yeah, that is. Yeah.

I just can't imagine ever being in that position where you're like, yes. Okay. But I guess if you fully believe that he is God. Yeah. Or God's working through him. Yeah. You know, where do you draw a line if you're going, I'm here because of this? So I guess once you're that far in

But that wasn't the case There were there A lot of people left because of that They're like no this is not right That's weird That doesn't feel like to me As someone who went through 13 years of Catholic education That doesn't feel like something that God would be asking of you

Right So if yeah It's interesting having that kind of That perspective on it And going well yeah this is sort of what they thought And how they felt But it's still so hard to fathom going Yeah okay great

what an honor thank you so much yeah it does it is like why would why would god want this absolutely take my wife there was one one guy one of the husband said at one point I think he was an Aussie guy he was like

he questioned it at first he goes is this God working through him or is this just horny old David and he's like and he ended up thinking no I think this is God work so he it's not like he had a little flicker he was like I'm he was trying to figure it out So he was still analyzing it.

He said that to David. Is this horny old David? He went, no, no, it's God. Just checking. Just checking. Happened at my due diligence. It would have been weird if I didn't, right? Take yourself in my shoes.

Anyway. Thank you. I'm glad I asked. I'm sorry if I offended you. I'm going to go back to the celibate level of the compound. Catch you guys later. And join it up there in your harem. See you later.

Harem? Harem. Harem. In interview, oh, no, I've just said that. A lot of these. these women were already married, I've said that too. The problem with going off script is I'll say things and forgetting that I've written them down. So Koresh divided the men and the women up.

The men lived on the ground floor and the women lived upstairs coincidentally. I think that is also where Koresh did. Guys, it's just a planning thing. It just worked out this way. Yeah. My room is also where all your wives are. I just want to be close because I need to break up all the pillow. that women have.

Yeah. It's just one big sleepover up there. And it's just pillow farts and cat farts. And it's just easier from there. They respect me. I don't have to run up the stairs and be like, girls, what's going on? Like, I can just go, oy, stop. I'd much rather hang out with you and have a boy's night.

Yeah. I've got to go up there. Duty calls. Sorry. But hey, have fun without me. Yeah. Oh, it's going to be hard up there without all my boys. It's going to be hard up there.

Let me hear my boys. Oh, yeah. Anyway, God wants me to, God bless. All right. Boys, boys, boys. All right. Later's, ladies, ladies, ladies, as he's taking his shirt and pants off going up the stairs. And he says, woo!

Off to bed, anyway, hitting the Bible. All right. See in the morn. We're all right, all right, all right, all right. Shut the door, just talking out there, crack in the door. All right, all right, all right. He just hear him. Later, ladies, later, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, bye, he just locks the door.

He doesn't... Thumping techno music starts, he does this every night. Here we go again. I've got to go upstairs. Bloody listen to them yammering on. You know what they like? He's just fully erect as he says this.

Cuts back to a group. Cuts back to a group of like smiling men just nodding like, yeah. Yeah, no worries. Yeah. God, Dave is such a good guy. I would never want to do that. I'd never want to break up all those good on him for...

So glad I get to hang out down here with you, Gary. Take him on for the team. You, Keith. We're a great team. You, me, Gary. And the Bible. This is fun, isn't it? I'm glad I sold our house and moved us to Waco.

I used to have a wife. Now I've got Gary and Keith and the Bible. Shall we start from the top again? This really does seem like God's... plan. In mysterious ways. Correschen's study of the Bible led him to believe he had cracked the code of the seven seals in the book of Revelation.

He hacked the mainframe. Yeah. Well, apparently, and so this meant that he believed he could predict the apocalypse. And due to this, he told his followers that God wanted them to build an army and that they needed to start stockpiling weapons. Oh. That doesn't feel like something that will end well. Uh, yeah.

Foreshadowing. Oh, I mean, you're skipping ahead a little bit there, but yeah, it's, um, this doesn't end well. Okay. Um, this is what, uh, this is what they did. They started stockpiling weapons. In 1992, a posty delivered a package to Mount Carmel, but it, uh, dropped on the doorstep and the lid broke off. And, uh, that revealed that it was full of hand grenades. The posty saw this and it alerted the authorities to it.

So did he still take a signature? Yeah, it took the signature. Just like, yeah, just enjoy these hand grenades. I mean, well, whatever it is, I don't know what it is. I'm not looking. Your own business, your own business. I love that he's like, oh, the top of it open. Yeah, okay, you peaked.

Yeah, fucking peaked. Yeah, fell and it broke. Okay. You're going through everyone's mouth. Oh, of course you are. That's never happened to any package I've ever received, and I've never ordered hand grenades, something that needs like a seal to work much more than any of the things I buy.

Yeah. What do you buy? Well. Dave's going through things he can say. Proximity mines. It's interesting that that came out, not like clothes, books. Proximity minds. I've never heard that.

That's from James Bond, Golden Eye. The video game? Yeah. Is it because I inspired you with all my gamer chat? Yeah, that was so cool. Thanks for trying to impress me with your gamer lingo. Yeah, I love. Goldnye.

Unless it's Mario Kart, we, I'm not that interested. Okay, sorry, I'll try again. I'll try a game. I'll throw a shell at me or fuck off. Yeah. So he called the authorities. So that's one of the stories. I think they were probably onto them anyway because they also, like this is something that didn't come up a lot.

And then I just started reading about the last couple of days that they, a lot of them work jobs. Like some would go home and work for a few months and some money come back. Oh. We've also had a business in town, which was a legal gun shop. Okay. As another guy I worked in IT. So you're probably, you're picturing like guys in robes and just, you know, nothing else going on. But there's still sounds like in part living.

So there's a community. Because a lot of the times with anything that's a bit culty, they can't leave. Or if you do, you're shunned or, you know, bad things can happen to you. But if they're like leaving and working for a few months and then coming back or then that's odd and amazing. Yeah. So it feels like it, I have not been able to get my head around it at all. Also, only a gunshot makes it really easy to stockpile weapons, right? Yeah.

Yeah. But I think the problem was the weapons I was stockpiling, well, one of the accusations is they were stockpiling semi-automatic weapons and converting them into automatic weapons or something like, don't understand guns, but something like that. They were doing something that was, that were going beyond what was legal. Then federal authorities were made aware of this and they started noticing that, yeah, they do seem to be stockpiling weapons there, the complex. And the ATF, which is the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, started watching Koresh closely. And this is from an article in Time magazine, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,

and firearms believed the community had nearly 250 weapons, including semi-automatic rifles, assault rifles, shotguns, revolvers, pistols, and hundreds of grenades. Hundreds. Hundreds. Yeah, it's a lot of grenades. That's a lot, isn't it? Wow. They sent undercover agents into the area, and some of which went into the compound sort of

posing as potential followers, and they were in there for quite a while. apparently in one of the docos I watched they interviewed some past members and they were like it was really obviously they moved in across the road three middle aged men posing as students or something I don't know if that's true or not but it sounds like it was a real like pretty obvious attempt at going under cow like a bad attempt yeah like hey cowabunga how bad How about the ATF, am I right? Pictureing that meme with... Steve Bishimi?

Spishimi. Hello fellow children. Hello fellow kids. The ATF put in place a plan to storm the Mount Carmel property to arrest Koresh for unlawful possession of a destructive device and to search the 77-acre compound. And on Feb, the 28th, 1993, the plan was put in a practice. but right from the start things weren't going to plan.

One of these documentaries I watched, and I'll link all the documentaries and everything in the description if you're keen to follow up on more stuff, all the articles and everything. One of them, they talked about how the branched divisions were tipped off about the raid. One version of it was that the media found out about it, so they were in the area and then a delivery man in the area, a different delivery man I suppose goes oh what are you guys up to

and they said oh well we've been tipped off about this thing and that guy was a branch of idiots he went back and he's like hey Mr Koresh yeah they're they're coming for us this afternoon apparently and then the ATF heard

about that they were made aware that they already knew there was a tip-off about the tip-off yeah and they went ahead anyway with their surprise on people that have hundreds of grenades Yeah, they're going there because of the weapons. And they knew they'd lost the Eliminus Surprise. Which is like the one thing keeping everyone safe, right?

Yeah, that's right. Because this is the weirdest part of it all that this raid happened. It's so strange. So they went ahead with the plan. And because there was media there, there's footage of it. So you can watch all this. And even though I've watched a bunch of footage and obviously the experts have gone right through it.

It still remains unclear. There's still debate on exactly what happened 25 years later. There's still debate about who shot first. The surviving branch of the Indians still claim it was the ATF and vice versa. What we do know is that something like 80 armed ATF agents descended on the compound and a big gun battle ensued. Whoa. The ATF is not naught like they, I don't think they'd ever really done anything like this before.

It sounded like a lot of people going into it didn't really know what was, you know, they were pretty naive to it all. And there were interviews with FBI agents and stuff after it going like, they were in over their heads. They should not have been doing this. Well, it should have called us, but they didn't. Should have gone out, but probably it just shouldn't have been happening. It just. You're right. Should have called us and we would have said, what are you doing?

Yeah, it doesn't make sense. It's not the smart way to go about it. It feels like something you'd kind of expect a SWAT team to be. And that's kind of what they look like. I mean, they were dressed up like a swat with the, you know, all the equipment and the big guns and everything. But yeah, it's just, it's havoc. The footage is wild. One member of the Divideons, a Melbourne man named Clive Doyle, who'd actually converted into this faith in the 50s.

So he'd been into it since before even Koresh was born, I think, recalled the raid in his autobiography, You're counting hearing Koresh say in the compound, I want you all to go back to your rooms and stay calm, going on to say that he could hear David's steps going down the hall towards the front door, then all of a sudden he heard David say, hey, wait a minute, there are women and children in here. Then all hell broke lease. Just a barrage of shots from outside coming in.

It sounded like a blood bar. So that's the account of one of the Davidians. So he's making it sound like, Dave's going, no, no, what are you doing? He got his hands up type of thing. The other side is saying they were shot at first. Guys, there's women and children out here. What are they doing out there? So they returned fire.

But it was a shootout, which went on for quite a while. Eventually the shooting stopped. And when it did, four federal agents were dead. And so were six dividends. So there were 10 casualties in the shootout. There was also more than a dozen wounded. So I think maybe even 20 or. There was quite a few wounds as well.

Footage of the battle and the aftermath is chaotic. Is there any grenades being used? I don't think so I didn't read anything about grenades or say any thrown. Yeah, right. Just because you've got so many, but they obviously cause a lot of damage. Yeah. Yeah, it's. I would love to have a go though.

At a grenade? Yeah. What would you do with it? I'd throw it. Like in a paddock or something? Yeah. Not at a person. I think you can go to players in America.

can do that. I'd be so terrified to go off in your hand and blow your hand. Oh yeah, I'd throw it so fast. A grenade in the hand is worth summon or other. I can't remember. Yeah.

But I say that. It's pretty incisive. That's wisdom. Insightful. I thought if you ever shot a gun? Well, no, that's what I was just thinking, because I went to Thailand when I was 21 with a bunch of friends. And then like second last day or something,

we did go to a shooting range and everybody had a go. And except me, I was like, I'm not that interested in doing this. Yeah. So no, I don't, I take back what I said. Yeah, right. But I just like throwing things. So maybe I'll just throw a ball around.

Are you thinking of the game, Worms? Because that, that is fun. That is a lot of fun. And you throw grenades in that. Yes. Games, yeah, gaming. And you also say, ha, you missed. And you know, they're going to come back.

I've got a team on, I haven't played in a while, but I don't know, I made my old phone out of a Worms game. And I named my team after the member. of Grindr Man because they have a song called Worm Tamer. It's very clever. That is great. Nick Cave was a wuss. You know, I want to say stuff like that at the end, which is funny.

Nick Cave won the Coward Award. They name awards at the end of the game for a second. Hey, he did his bloody best video game. I remember vaguely shooting a gun when I was a kid. Where would you? On a farm or something? Yeah, because the first few years of my life were out in the country in country, Victoria, and that's obviously a bit more common there.

Yeah, I remember going spotlighting. Yeah. My brother's got guns legally and they're all locked up and everything. What does he do with them though? Yeah, they'd go hunting or just. Like for rabbits or something? Yeah. He and my dad went to the shooting range together, which was quite,

I was a bit surprised by that, but also like, wow, I guess you're doing activities together. That's nice. Nice father-son time, I guess. A bit of bummer. Mom and I're going to get brunch. So. And they're like, can you imagine? getting brunch.

What is wrong with those two? Let's go somewhere where we can't hear each other talk because of loud noises. That's beautiful. I forgot Dad listens. Hi, Dad. Sorry. Hi, John.

Keep on shooting. Shootie. Maybe I'm just acting out because I wasn't invited, you know? So I didn't even think. Maybe we should see if Jess wants to come. And I would have said... I bet you they had brunch as well. Fuck, do you reckon?

I reckon you can do both. I reckon you should do both. You got to eat. You got to shoot a gun, smash an avocado. That's what I always say. So, yeah, so the footage pretty chaotic. During the, when it kicks off, you see multiple agents climbing up onto the roof. And I saw this across so many different videos.

This was probably the most famous part of the raid. So it's different angles. Well, there's one main shot because I think early on there wasn't that much media there. As the siege went on, more came. But there's, I think it's like three or four. agents have climbed a ladder up onto the roof. Some are breaking down the window and going in. God, that's brave.

The one remaining on the roof, he starts to get shot at through the wall. Whoa. So he gets hit a few times. And you've seen the gunshots come through the wall at him, and he sort of retreats. And that's like, that's, that's, I imagine that's probably one of the most iconic bits of the footage is, I think, yeah, I think that guy survived. Right.

I think I saw him jump down, back down the ladder. That's full action movie being shot through something. Yeah. It was shooting people through a table or something. It's crazy. So yeah, it just feels like a lot of mistakes were made, just like they were sold out by their, whether, you know, the decision makers a little bit.

Sort of being thrown into the wolves, kind of. Then when the shooting stops, you can see the ATF agents retreating. And this is apparently people who, who were on the inside, the Divideans were like, this was the first time I saw how many they were. They're like, this is wild. What this, it's like an army out there, which is also kind of plays into what Koresh was preaching. They're going to come for us. It's going to be a big army.

These are passages from the Bible that say such things. But they were, so they're retreating, pulling the wounded away. There aren't enough. One of the guys interviewed, he was like there wasn't enough room for me in any of the trucks. So they had to put me on the bonnet. There's footage of him, one of the police cars trucks slash euth trucks rolling down the road with him on the bonnet with people holding him onto the bonnet just because there's nowhere for him to be treated. They're driving him away to be treated via a bonnet of a car. So it's just havoc.

This is like supposedly a planned raid, you know. It shouldn't end like that. Yeah, wow. Not that I'm any expert on such things, but it just seems like an expert should have been consulted. Yeah. It just feels. Yeah. So this is what most people say that was all a big mistake.

Then there were questions being asked by the media like, why didn't they arrest Koresh outside the compound? Like when he was out doing a shopping or whatever. Right. Yeah, because they all like to walk down the street normally. Yeah, that's right. And the reply was, you saw it in press conferences. They were holding press conferences from now and through the siege.

and the agents, you know, the media officers would be like, he never left the compound or what just wasn't possible. But this was found to be untrue. I saw him at the shops last week. He would go shopping regularly. He'd go running by himself. I think it came out that the undercover agents went fishing with him or something or shooting with him.

Like they escorted him off the prison? Yeah, so they had so many opportunities to arrest him. If they had a warrant for his arrest, They could have just taken them in. No one dies. There's no big raid. You don't have 80 people going out to this crazy big event. It's just done.

It's just sort of knocked on its head. So it just doesn't seem to make sense. And there's so many conspiracy theories come out of and stuff. One of the things I read was that it was around budget time. They wanted to show we need, we've got a lot of expenses, look at all our. All right. We need these guns.

Yeah, we need all this. We use these guns. That's, if that's true, that is obviously fucked. But that's just, you know, you read all sorts of things on the internet. Yeah. Sure. Koresh's teachings meant that the Divideans believed their destiny was to be involved in an apocalyptic fight with Babylon.

So Babylon's mentioned in the Bible a lot. And Babylon is a term that Koresh took from the Bible to apply to modern day. US authorities. So this is what he was saying with them before this time. He's like, Babylon's going to come for us. They're going to come in tanks. They're going to come with big armies and they're going to surround us, right? There's going to be fire.

And so this just played right into that. Shit. So people are going, the Divinians are going, no, he's, what he's prophesizes coming true. They just took him out outside. He's on his run. They pick him up and take him away. it doesn't none of that comes true so that it's not confirming everything that he's been saying political scientist Michael Barkin has since noted that by assaulting the group directly

the government confirmed their prophecies and reinforced their beliefs which I'm sort of saying there so this is what they were preparing for right now they're probably prepared to die a bit more yeah they're like oh this is god this god's saying this is yeah all right this is the end okay all good yeah where destiny the other side of this is everlasting life, you know, judgment days coming, we stick with, obviously, the guys on God's side where we go to heaven forever, you know, and that's obviously a very powerful thing to combat against when you're, and have now sort of helped prove to them that you are the, you know, the bad guys. What followed was basically unprecedented in America, a 51-day standoff between the FBI

who had taken over from the ATF and the branched Divideans. 51 days. 51 days. It is also said to be unprecedented as it was the first time the US government used large-scale military force on its own citizens. So they're bringing in more tanks, helicopters. Well, let me tell you, this is from the New York article I was talking about before, talking about the epic size of the operation. The FBI assembled what has been called probably the largest military force ever gathered against a civilian suspect in American history. 10 Bradley tanks, two Abrams tanks, four combat engineering vehicles, 668 agents, in addition to six US customs officers, 15 US Army personnel, 13 members of the Texas National Guard, 31 Texas Rangers, 131 officers from the Texas Department of Public Safety, 17 from the McLennon County Sheriff's Office, and 18 Waco Police for a total of 899.99.

people. Sorry, Jessica should have been one more. But the logistics of that is crazy. Okay, here are the first things that I thought of. First of all, 51 days inside the house, surely you don't have enough food. Second thing I thought, for some stranger is it in my head, I imagined it was a nine to five kind of thing and that the offices all went home. I was like, do they just leave the tanks there? And then I was like, it's probably a shift thing. I reckon they're probably there all. I think that's why there's so, yeah, so many, they're clocking on clock. They're not all there at once.

Can I just ask, are the Bransdevidians still working their day jobs during this time? Are you calling in sick for 51 days because you're not getting that job bug? Sorry, Treve, I've got to go do a shift down to the gun shop. So if you just let me through the gate here, I'll be back later. Don't worry. I'll be back later to shoot at you. I'll do my shift. That's wild.

Yeah. And so, you know, the biggest number I heard from people inside is like 150, but it ended up being less than that. It was like 8 to 1. Whoa. Yeah, I just, I can't even picture it. No. So he's preaching to them. It's going to be like, it's starting to sound biblical, like in proportion.

So you see all, you look out and you see all that, plus a swarm of media. There's just so much going on out there. Helicopter swooping overhead. Tanks in the distance. You're like, this is, this feels like what he's been preaching to us that was going to happen. Yeah, you'd be like, this is a super important thing. A tame, a time, that's how I say team. I'll say team so you guys can.

Thank you. A team of trained FBI negotiators were flown to the scene. And over the following 51 days, they spoke with the Divideons via a phone day and night. Much of this was recorded and excerpts feature heavily in the documentaries I've been watching. Highlights were also repeated at press conferences and media broadcasts at the time. A huge bank of media outlets set up outside the compound Most probably expecting the siege to go for a day at most Usually someone say

Usually a siege like this would last You know half a day to a day That's a longish one So no one was expecting it to go on As it went on and on There were footage of people coming Basically looking at it like a tourist spot People were going there and taking photos out the front

And it just went for so long There was Selfie out the front of the wake Saturday Night Live we're doing sketches with featuring David Karrasch What? Taking brides and stuff It's just, yeah, isn't that?

Can you do that without knowing the outcome yet? Like these people are doing it when they had the soccer kids stuck in the Thai boys in the cave? You can't do comedy about them. It's big news, but until they're out safe. Yeah, don't. Until it's done. Just in case. Yeah.

Not going to age well if things go bad, which I think they might. Yeah. So isn't that, yeah, that, when I saw, that's what I had that thought as I was like, holy, they were just so comfortable with it being, this is just what it is, it's going on for nearly two months. The tourist attraction, like taking photos of it. Imagine it's on by the seventh week, everyone's just like, well, this is just how we live now. Yeah, it just becomes, that becomes normal. It almost gets to the point where it ends and people like, oh, is that over?

Still on. That's insane. Yeah. I mean, I've become kind of obsessed with all this this week. And I, I don't know, it makes me feel different. I feel sad. I'm feeling sad about it all the time. Yeah.

It's so fascinating, but it's so, it's such a sad story. Which continues. It does, yes. We're beyond the halfway, Mar. Huh. I mean, the siege is in now. Yeah, we're in the siege. But what are we on day two of,

Yeah, I'm not going to go day by day. Day three. He was seen taking a shit. I got to the start of the siege in the report. Well, they only saw him once. Do you take a shit like once a week? No, they only saw him once and then he went, oh, I'll probably close the window. But the shit was assumed for other days.

I love that. Sorry, it just makes me think of one of my favorite episodes of The Simpsons, Homer Badman, where he's accused of touching the babysitter inappropriately. which it turns out he hasn't done. The venous de... The gummy venus de Milo. She can't have gotten far. She has no arms.

But when Kent Brockoon is watching them from the helicopter, it's like, we could only see inside this house if we had some sort of infrared camera. So let's turn it on. I assume that's homo there, roasting in the oven, stewing in his own juices at 250 degrees. The turkey just rotating.

Basting. No, this technology is new to me. That's a great parody of siege. It's also, it's amazing that that kind of journalism, what would you say the equivalent to that is in Australia? What program? A current affair? A current affair had the first,

and I believe maybe exclusive interview with David Koresh before all this kicked off, not long before. There's footage of, they went in and talked to him. A current affair used to be good. Did it? Yeah. Yeah, cool. Because what a current affair actually means is a news story that can go into more detail.

It has more time. Right. So the news says what happened and when it happened. Current affairs, well, sometimes it says what happened. Other times it says like a celebrity got married. I'm just remembering. Is this you using your journalism degree? This means I can write off my journalism degree.

It's tax deductible now. because I've talked about it. Is that how that works? I mean, because most people when they actually get a job as a journalist can't write it off. I'm pretty sure that's how it works. It's amazing that just mentioning something you studied

Well, obviously they don't have very good account. You can write up a $30,000 degree. My point is that a current affair looks at why and how. Right. And that's what it used to be. Now it's dog shit. So in the early 90s, that was what it was? Yeah.

Can I put into perspective for our overseas listeners who may not be... They probably have... I imagine we probably bought the franchise off. But may not know our version of a current affair. And I'd like to credit my good friend Nick Yates I used to play in a band with who once watched a current affair

and there was a story. And he told me he never forgot it and I've never forgotten it. It was called killer driveways. Yeah. It's pretty incredible. They wrote that now these days, I've never heard of that one.

That was good stuff. They were having a good creative day that day. Normally the one, the cliches are neighbor from hell. Dodgy car salesmen. Yeah, dodgy bosses, dodgy salespeople. Which petrol station's got the cheapest fuel at the moment? People suing on work compensation that don't deserve it, that we filmed,

and then we harass them down the street saying, oh, it looks like you can walk pretty well then, Maureen. Yeah, and a lot of people putting their hand over the camera. And then they're using that footage several times, every time you see it, it gets slower and slower and grainer and grazier, so they just look inherently guilty. Then there's a graphic of like jails. sell over the top of that person, you know.

But yeah, I... That's the door locking. That's noise 342. But, um... Current Fair gate lock. I studied journalism. So if you guys ever need explanation on how news works. That is so great.

That is really handy. Because I did study media and communications. Yeah, but you... But it's not quite the same. Yeah, I majored in... I mean, I majored in media and communications. Yeah. In criminology, but...

But it's not. It's not. That doesn't mean you understand. No, it's different types of news. It certainly doesn't. I have no idea. And I appreciate that. I'm just here if you need me.

And I work on a news show and I didn't know that. And now that you've mentioned that, you can write off your hexback. My job is now tax deductible. Your job is tax deductible, yes. Congratulations. Thank you so much. On your free job. Is Jess germ-splaining to us?

I think you might be, but I appreciate it because I didn't know it. There was a, I don't know, you might not have said this, just, but recently someone shat on this podcast saying that Dave and I are soy boys. This is fire on iTunes review. They thought I might have been joking until I talked about mansplaining like it's a real thing. What? I'm just lightly obsessed with. I've been laughing all week about the term soy boy.

It's so funny. Can I work that into the show? Yes. What does that mean? I had to look it up on the urban dictionary. It means you drink so much soy that you're becoming more feminine. You're not a real man. anymore because you drink you don't drink real milk oh and then you explained man explaining as

if it was a thing well i just mentioned it like it was a real thing like it was a real thing like it was because it's not a real thing is what they're trying to say yes oh they're our target demographic stop you're losing weirdo listeners again good that's great if you're listening now why i love being called and fuck off and from the soy boys here great to have you here let's start a podcast soy boys soy boys soy boys soy boys and jess Oh yeah You can be a soy boy too Is it B-O-I

No Should be Should be Should be Should be Soy boys There's our matching tat Hmm

Soy boys Soy boys Soy boys B-O-I Z S-O-I Let's make it unreadable Let's

Let's caress the fuck out of it Make up So anyway Fuck that was a tangent Um The So we're talking about the conversations the negotiators were having with Koresh and other

other leading divinians. This one guy I found he seemed so reasonable in the clips that were being played. I did, I should say one of the documentaries I watched was from the other. It was like a kind of more on the conspiracy side of thing. Oh, that's good. So when he's on the phone, he doesn't sound like a madman. No, he sounds super reasonable. And he's, he's sort of seen at times, he's sort of like, come on guys, let's,

you're not being logic. You know, he's sort of, they, but I'll talk about that a bit as well, because I think they, they misjudged what their faith was. They were thinking they were brainwashed when maybe it, they didn't realize that they were just full believers, like they came to that themselves. Right. So they thought they could maybe talk some of them out of it.

Yeah. They didn't, they thought that they could, yeah, break them out of the spell. Guys, you come out, we'll give you chockies. Ooh. Oh, yeah. See, Jess, not a true believer. What kind of chalky? How well do you know me?

That's the question. Soy. Get fucked. Soy boys. I reckon you know. There it is. Mint chock chip. Yeah.

That's ice cream but also chocolate with mint. I mean, just reverse engineer it, Dave. Yeah, that's my favorite. It's not hard to be there for your friends. I ate some in the car on the way here. There's usually a block in my fridge. Dark chocolate? Milk chocolate.

Milk. I was about to say the one thing that I know about Matt is you have to put the chocolate in the fridge. Yeah. Chocolate in the fridge, ideally. dark. I think an old man. It's a crime against humanity. Yeah, well.

I think... Two against one. I think when you guys get to my advanced age, you'll start appreciating dark chocolate. Apparently, someone was telling me that the older you get, the more fucked things have to taste. Just to feel something. Your taste buds are dying. You're just eating sardines. It's like, I need, give me that.

Give me the worst you got. Yeah. Because it sort of tastes subtle to me. And you'll have a piece. You're like, whoa. Whoa. So bitter. And I'm like, I'm getting something, cardboard?

So some say one of the FBI's crucial mistakes was mischaracterizing the Dividians as braided and washed hostages, as I was saying. Doyle begins his book. I talked about Doyle, the Melbourne long-term. Yeah, that's right, from the 50s. He begins his autobiography about his connection to the church by saying, Most people think cult about us and think we are people who are brainwashed and deceived.

They think our church members don't know what they're doing or where they're going. Hopefully my story can open their eyes. And he wrote a whole story about his whole journey, finding the faith through the siege and everything. The FBI certainly seemed to see that way. The New Yorker article, which was titled How Not to Negotiate with Believers, quotes the work of religious scholar Nancy Ammerman, who interviewed many of the FBI hostage negotiators involved. And she says that nearly all of them dismissed the religious beliefs of the Dividians. For these men, David Koresh was a sociopath and his followers were hostages.

Religion was a convenient cover for Koresh's desire to control his followers and monopolize all the rewards for himself. So a lot of the FBI tactics were to try and break this brainwashed hold. They believed Koresh held over them. According to the New Yorker, the FBI trained. spotlights on the property. They set up giant speakers that blasted noise day and night. The sound of rabbits being killed.

What does that sound like? Sorry, Matt. You're the perfect person to ask. What does it sound like when you kill a rabbit? Sorry, well, it depends on how. How are they being killed? Chainsaw. Chainsaw, okay.

So I'll mute out the chainsaw and you're just going to hear the rabbit. Is that what you want? Yes, please. Otherwise, I'm just going to give you the scent of a chainsaw. And I'm sure I've already done that before. Of course. So chainsaw muted. Okay.

And I should say also that I am an animal lover. This is not a real rabbit. Yeah. No matter how real the sounds. No rabbits were harmed during this sound. And that time I went spotlighting, no rabbits were harmed that night. I don't think. Rabbit being killed by chainsaw.

Science chainsaw. Wow, it's a lot slower death than I would have imagined. Yeah, with the chain, so I would have thought it would have been a quick death, but, okay. It's funny what happens when you take out the big sounds and you tune in. So they're playing that through a speaker 24-7. On and off. Yeah, they're also playing warped up music. They're playing Nancy Sinatra singing these boots are made for walking.

And everyone hates that song famously. Did we not play that in the car one time on our tour? I'm sure we did. That's part of our big playlist. Yeah, we did. You keep saying, you got something for me. So the way we did it while we were driving around, we went, all right, this is a theme.

Each of us has to pick a song in this theme. We're making this endless Spotify playlist. One of the themes was footwear. Yeah. And that's where that came from. I chose that theme because I was thinking of that song. It's a great song. Because I was thinking about Jessica Simpson for some reason.

And she did a cover of it. And then I thought, I won't play the Jessica Simpson version. I'll choose the original. And that's the backstory. It's a good story. And well told. Thank you. Christmas carols, telephones ringing.

And so... Who's in charge of that? Like who's going, all right, now let's put on three hours of telephone's ringing. All right, rabbit's dying. We'll have 20 minutes of run DMC before we'll have five minutes silence, and then we'll come back and hit them with the sound of a toilet flushing really loud. And then a... Someone at the FBI, I guess.

That's someone's job. So there's the tactical arm, and then there's the negotiators. And it sounds like the communication between those two. wasn't so good because in interviews with some of the negotiators years after they spoke of how they were frustrated

that the tactical arm of the FBI would sometimes act in ways that would contradict their agreements with the Dividians they'd be like all right

they feel like they're working towards resolution and then the tactical arm would come in and do some more strong arms stuff like hey I thought we were trying to resolve this peacefully and then all of a sudden

why are your tanks you know why are you doing these aggressive maneuvers like this they cut off their water they were living on what fell from the sky basically. They put out buckets, catch rain, and share that out amongst the hundred-ish people.

And they're still kids in there. Including newborns. It's horrific. Yeah, it's just a nightmare. All of it sounds like it's, which is what they're trying to make it. They're trying to get them to leave. But the problem is they're, but the problem is, think they're dealing with some brainwash people who would be like, oh, we, this is fuck.

But if you're dealing with people who believe this is the end of the world and they believe you're signaling it with your army, then they're only going to go, look, this is only a matter of time and this is all going to come to. It's going to wait it out. Yeah. Who cares if I'm thirsty? I'll just wait. So they didn't, I don't think they understood that properly.

So it seemed like they were just willing to wait and wait because they thought. thought that they were doing what God wanted them to do. Agreements were also broken from Koresh as well. Koresh at one point said that he would surrender if a recording of his teaching was played over the national radio. And the FBI organized for this to happen on a Christian radio station, but we're very disappointed to find that afterwards Koresh had a change of heart, saying that God told him that he wanted him to stay after all.

Which is tricky because you'd be like, I mean, okay. It's very hard to argue with that. So, well, obviously all the FBI need to do is speak to God. Get God on side. Oh, that's so true. They've got to turn the speakers to the heavens. Yeah.

Blast them run DMC, get his attention. Yeah. Then ask him to tell Koresh to knock it off. Yeah. Sort of like when your sibling is hitting you and you say, Ma, ma, ma. And she goes, Michael! In my example, because my brother's name is Michael.

Oh, okay. So it's not always going to be Michael. Won't always be Michael? No, your mum might say something else. Unless your sibling is also Michael, then that was very relatable for you. And you were like, wow, it's like Jess knows my past. Few people at home are really being like, wow. Like, say, for instance, Gregory Jordan, he's probably thinking that.

Yeah. Also Gregory Jackson. Yeah. Gregory. Schumacher's another one. Also Gregory. The angel. Gregory Finnegan.

Yeah. The ones was a man. Yeah. Hair on his chin again. Gregory Tyson. Yeah. Et cetera. It's very relatable for all of those.

Gregory's. Gregory Myers. Yeah. And also Gregory Myers. He's in Bohemian Rhapsody. Gregory Myers. No, he's brother. Tim Myers.

Fuck. It's a big family. Mike. After discussions with his lawyer, Koresh again promised he would vacate the compound with his followers. This time he said it would happen after he wrote about his explanation of the seven seals. So this is that section of the book of revelations in the Bible. So what's the deal, sorry?

He'll vacate if... He'll if they just need to let him write about his explanation of... of the seven seals, he feels like he's cracked it. And cracking the code of the seven seals, their belief in the Dividians and other areas of Christianity is that once those codes are cracked, that helps bring, that opens up a document that brings on the second coming of God

and in turn, judgment day, end of the world. Something like that. So basically he's saying, let me bring on the end of the world and then we'll quit. Well, I mean, he's saying, yeah, I guess in his mind, he's like, if you let me do this part, then I'll come out. And from their point of view, they're like, yeah, right about it, not believing that that will actually be in the world. So I would imagine if they, it did happen, they're egg on their face. They would.

They'd be like, it was way better on it was just a siege. Now it's the end of the world. Whoops. Sorry, everyone. We, uh, he really called our bluff there. We really screwed the pooch on this one. What's that saying? But I don't like that image.

No. Same with we're not here to fuck spiders. Yeah. Love the saying. Strange image, especially little spiders. I mean, even big spiders. Gess is acting out sex with a spider. I'm just humping.

Oh, humping a tiny one. Holding it by two of its eight legs, I assume. No good, Jess. No good. I'm sorry. I'm sure we've talked about this before, but where I grew up, and it sounds like it was a very limited application of this version. of it, but it was we're not here to fuck fish, which I think is much more pleasing.

What, sexually? Sexually? No, just the alliteration. Oh, right. Fuck fish. Of course, sex with a fish, as we all know, is much better than sex with a spider. I'm not going to go there. As we all know.

Dave, we don't all know that. I'm sorry, it's your family. Matt, we all know that. Come on. I'm not going to be drawn on this. We've all fucked a fish. Is that true? Yes.

Wait, are sharkfishers? Matt. For argument's sake, yes. All right. Can you get them at a fish and chip shop? Then it's fish. Okay. Yes.

Snitzel burgers, fish. Vegger with the lot. Fish. Bottle of Coke. Fish. Tiny little sachet of tomato sauce is actually fish. I didn't know that. I did not know that.

I didn't know that either. Anything you can get from a fish and chip shop is fish. I love it. Yeah. Jar of pickles? Fish. Fish. Including the jar.

Yeah, that's a fish jar. So they've made this new deal, but this time apparently the FBI were unconvinced, sort of not fully believing that he'll keep his word and thinking that maybe he's just dragging him along. And they were starting to get impatient. I would too, I reckon. This is from history.com. Though initially reluctant, Attorney General Janet Reno ended up approving a plan to fire CS gas, which is a form of tear gas, into the Mount Carmel compound to try to force out the Dividians. Just after 6am on April 19, 1993, FBI agents used two specially equipped tanks to penetrate the compound and deposit some 400 containers of gas inside.

400 wow and the footage of this is also full on so the tanks come in so they think so talking to some of the people from the inside they're like I thought we were

this was all going to end they were talking piecely the negotiators are talking about resolving this all of a sudden these tanks are coming in with these huge extended arms and it's just ripping walls down oh so it's putting a hole in the wall so the tear gas can go

yeah but they're just shredding walls open I was watching it. I'm sure there must have been more science still, but it's like, how are they doing this? How do they know what's on the other side of these walls? Yeah. Yeah, structurally, what's happening?

What's happening? Where are the people in there? It's just, they had a pretty good idea of where everyone was situated. They had that sort of information, I guess, from their inside man, just scoped out, and also they had people who'd been,

who'd left, who probably has spoken to them. But, yeah, still, how do you know where everyone is at any time? Just, it's just like, that's pretty, I'm not even sure where Dave is right now. Because I'm looking at you. Oh, that's true. My proof of vision is very good. Now, excuse me for a moment while I turn my head to the right.

Right. Okay, now there's Dave. I'm here. But I'm not sure now where Matt is. I'm looking at me. I'm going to look somewhere in the middle and I can kind of see both of you. My point is, how could they have known? That's true.

That sounds like... Is this Schroding as... Yeah. To me, that sounded like you... were giving evidence in court? In summary, Your Honor, they couldn't have known. And like, pausing for applause, but it's court so that it's not giving it. Jury, come on, that was pretty compelling.

Tapping the mic. Hello? Is this thing on? Sorry, did you get this? Sorry, did you hear? That was the best statement I've ever made. What a statement. This is good stuff.

I'm so sorry. Beautiful. All right, so there's a tank ripping down walls. It's crazy. And then they're loading it with tear gas. Tear gas. Jeez. So at this stage, Bill Clinton's the president.

Attorney, he's a point. I'm pretty sure he appointed Janet Reno as Attorney General. It was like maybe even during the siege. It was like she's only newish in the job. Right on. It's a real tough call to make. She's okay. She had to give the okay.

She did that. Apparently, apparently at first they wanted them to wait it out. Why aren't you waiting it out? and the FBI like we've tried that we're worried about what's going on in there is he abusing kids or all these other things they've got weapons are they going to is it going to be mass suicide we think we need to act now and that I think that eventually convinced him and Bill Clinton I read him say or someone quoting him as saying all right um if you think this is the best way to go then let's do it that's what he said to her and then

she okayed it. So they, they, they wear a lot of the fallout from all of it lands on them. Because, you know, they're at the top. They're the ones who gave it the green light. But I mean, nearly no one comes out particularly well from this. So they've smashed walls in. They've plowed in the gas. They're thinking this will mean they'll leave, right? But that was not enough because they believe that this is the end times. This is just another signal of it, of the end time's coming. Not pleasant. No. Apparently there were gas masks in there and if you had them on the gas wouldn't affect you. There were no gas masks. Did anyone have them on though? Yeah I think plenty of the adults did but there weren't any appropriately sized for the kids. Oh gosh, so they're the ones

being affected. Yes. And there's some read some places saying that the FBI knew this, that there or gas masks, but I mean, I don't know if that's, you know, all of this feels like it's, it's all, it feels like there's nothing that's clear. I mean, the official line of it is that, oh, we'll talk about that soon, but there's still a lot of debate and a lot of people still distrust. This, like, led to a lot of distrust in the government. At around midday, three fires, and this is where it gets real fuck, three fires, started in separate areas that compound simultaneously

and gunfire was heard inside. It was a particularly windy day and the fire tore through the property really quickly. It just went down real quick. On the video, there's a, I think it's a propane tank or something, explodes on the property. It just burns up.

It's quite a big property and it all just goes. And of the 85 men, women and children in the compound that day, only nine made it out alive. Whoa. Holy shit. Yeah. So the fires, what were they? The fires, although there's still debate about this,

but basically it seems like they lit the fires themselves. And even there's a Davidian who survived, an Australian guy called Graham Craddock, and he spoke to Channel 9 earlier this year. And he said, and there's a guy still fully believes Koresh's the chosen one and he's going to come back right this is what he said he said i looked over to the side and there was someone with a fuel container and they were spilling fuel on the floor on the floor of the chapel i then hear someone call out from upstairs again they said light the fire right um three

simultaneous that's none of that that's right yeah um 76 bodies were recovered including 25 children fuck many were found to have died from smoke inhalation some from fall into breeze, and there were quite a few also who died from gunshot wounds, including Koresh. An article on independent.co.uk posits a theory that as the flames and federal agents approached, some Davidians followed their leader, Koresh's order to commit suicide and took their children with them. Oh. Every aspect of Waco seems to be contest, though.

Yeah. The Independent other newspaper describes the Waco siege and the events that led up to it as, They say in some ways it was a fatal collision of things that have helped make and occasionally threatened to break America. Waco combined God and guns, the right to religious freedoms and the right to bear arms, with the fear that federal government would remove those rights and federal government's fear of its more extreme citizens. It saw a government acting partly out of fear of domestic terrorism embark on a siege that would come to support narratives later exploited by domestic terrorists. because in some quarters, Corrash and the Davidians were martyrized

as a community of God-fearing if unconventional Christians whose freedoms should have been guaranteed by the US Constitution, but who were instead killed by an ever more controlling government. So that's how it's seen by the people. People are already distrusting the government sort of see this big event as like,

well, this is just proof that the government, they're not looking after us. They're using army force against us. Obviously, that's, That is taking a black and white perspective on it all, and others on the opposite side would say tell it very, very different. But also it just shows that it's just a, it's already a real tense sort of scenario. And it's weird talking about all this political American politics from here, because I obviously have no idea what I'm talking about, only what I've been reading. and it just feels like it even now it's still people are still um i wouldn't be surprised if

some of this sort of stuff rolled into what ended up with trump and and people distrusting classic government and that's why they went with this outsider and trump again don't know what i'm talking about so i should shut the fuck up um one of the domestic terrorists that uh the independent was talking about was a man named timothy mcfay probably know his name oglomer city farmer yes two years To the day after the Waco siege ended, on April 19, 1995, he blew up the Alfred P. Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, killing 168 people in what he saw as a revenge attack for the events on Waco. It wasn't a coincidence, apparently.

Apparently, that was a direct response. Oh, the two-year thing, yeah, right. Wow. So he, yeah, he, Waco kind of, in part, radicalized him, You know, someone who's going to do that, who knows. Yeah, right. Wow. The Conversation.com reported that the US president at the time, Bill Clinton, reacted to criticism of the government's handling of the siege

by expressing incredulity, incredulity. Incredulity? Yeah, sure. You know that word that I'm trying to say, that anyone would suggest that the Attorney General should resign because some religious fanatics murdered themselves. An independent inquiry into the events was ordered by Attorney General Janet Reno in 1999. Six years later.

Yes. So there were inquiries in Congress and stuff. But this is the first big one. And this happened because it was revealed that some of the tear gas used by the FBI was inflammable, despite officials having denied this for the previous six years. So it came to light that that it was. So they're like, all right, we need to do a big, we need to do a big open investigation. So this led to a 10-month investigation headed by former Republican Senator John C. Danforth.

And the fact that the investigation was headed by a Republican was significant as Bill Clinton was a Democrat. And I'm guessing they knew that it would look suss if they had it headed by a Democrat. So they got a Republican senator in or an ex-Republican senator in. And when he released his report, Danforth told journalists, I give you these conclusions with 100% certainty. So 10 months and he's like This is this is how it went down This is what he said

The responsibility for the tragedy rests With certain members of the branch Davidians And their leader David Koresh Adding this is not a close call Concluding that Koresh And certain branch Davidians set fire to their own compound He said there's no doubt in his mind That's what happened

He said people should answer for the lies And hiding about the fact that they use the flammable gas canisters, but that that shouldn't distract people from the findings that it was 100% the responsibility of David Koresh. But, I mean, despite that finding 18 years ago, the debate still rages on. Yeah, right. But officially, I mean, so in some ways, this is a mystery, but. And the nine survivors, were any of them, like, charged with any offences or anything?

Yeah, so they all did, they were all charged. Well, this is from the New York Times in 1994. Ignoring police feloniency from the defendants and the four woman of the jury that convicted them, a federal judge today sentenced five branched of idioms to 40 years in prison for their roles in a shootout near Waco in February 1993. That was the initial shootout. And it goes on to say that Judge Walter S. Smith of Federal District Court handed down. sentences ranging from five to 20 years for three other defendants and the eight were collectively ordered to pay fines and restitution to the government of more than one million

dollars right when yeah it's a it's such a confi I don't know so you're not sure how you feel about it I really don't know about like all I know is it's it's a fucking sad story yeah so the conspiracy theorist will tell you that the FBI started the fire to sort of drive them out is that sort of. Yeah, they say that. You think, I mean, the ex-Republican senator, you know, he talks about it. It's like there's no doubt in this. What is clear is it's very sad that it probably would never have happened if they just arrested him out on his run or something like that.

And can I just clarify, so what, why would they have arrested him anyway? Was it the gun stuff? It was the gun stuff was what they were going because, I mean, they were the people who were the, They were the... Yeah. Alcohol, tobacco and firearms. Yes. So they, I mean, their jurisdiction was guns.

Sure. So they're like, he's got... Too many guns. Too many guns. Too many guns. And maybe he's... Doing things to them that's not legal. Right.

So all of this happened because of that. Yeah. And they... But then, obviously the siege then happened because of the gunfight. But also, I believe they use some of the... the underage sex stuff, I think, was used to convince the higher-ups to give the go-ahead for more action and stuff. But still, that's, yeah, that seems like such a huge thing to happen.

When you're right, like, he went for a run by himself. Just, like, put some surveillance on him. That was it, I mean, and they, which they had done. So they had people arrest him. You have a undercover people. I just don't get it. Just arrest him. Go knock on the door and arrest him.

This feels like a topic that was over our heads here. I think that's most topics over mine. Oh, man. Totally. Well, no, that's a super interesting topic. Fascinating. Tragic, but very interesting. Yes.

Can see why people requested it. Yeah, so many people. So thanks for all that. I mean, that is, yeah, that's just going to be rolling around my head for a while. I imagine, because we do have a lot of American listeners, and I imagine they're a lot close to all this, and I imagine they would probably... Be very familiar with that story.

Yes, and probably have... Yeah, I imagine that in part, that would have been very frustrating to listen to it, and Australian dufous fumble through it. How interesting. I actually hadn't heard of it. When you said it was something that happened in the 90s, I was like, I can't think of anything,

but I reckon when you say it, I'll go, oh, of course. And then you said it, and I was like, no. No, I'd never. I heard of it either. And it, yes. Which I always feel weird when it's things that have happened in my lifetime. I'm like, I should have been paying more attention. But it's very early on.

Yeah. It's also super hot in here. It is quite hot in here. Yes. Well, let's finish the episode. Finish the episode as we always do. Great report, as just just said. But we have a little bit of Patreon business to do right now.

I should just say quickly, I've just found, sorry, I've just found that post on the Patreon group. It was Will Ross, who suggested on there. And I don't think he was on my list before. But yes, we do a little Patreon thing called... Fact quote or question. Yes. And why this comes about is if you can support the show

by going to patreon.com slash do go on pod, giving us a little pledge every month, which is very, very nice. And in exchange you get rewards like two bonus episodes that no one else hears. We've just sent out some Christmas cards to a bunch of people on our nice list, not the naughty list, sorry everyone on that list.

but you did miss out. And of course, we thank people by name, which we'll do in a minute. But there's also the fact quote or question where Matt, what do people get to do? Well, they get to give me a fact quote or question. Oh. And I'll read out the fact or the quote or the question that they give me. They also get to give themselves a title. And also on this same level, they are the ones who voted for this week's topic.

So that's on the Sydney-Shineberg level. This week, it is Joe Smith has sent in a fact quote or question. It's a question. And he's given himself the title, Project Manager of Matt's Kick-Arse beard. By the way, I still need the new growth numbers so that my team and I can try to optimize growth for next year. I'll get them on your desk by the morning.

I love that it's a year-long project. Yeah. You've got to have the AGM. Talk about that beard. Joe's question is, and this is his third entry into the fact to quote a question. He was there from the very begin. Yes, go Joe.

I love that. He says, Australia is known for having something that can kill you around every corner. There's Jess. 7-Eleven. Besides a worked-up pop, oh man, we both made the same joke. You and me, Joe.

Does he mean worked up like excited or worked up like angry or what does he mean by that? I mean, I could even read to the end of the sentence. Besides, a worked-up pop after saying the name Bindy Irwin. Okay, angry he means. Not excited. So his question is, what's the craziest Aussie creature you all have come in contact with? Oh.

Brown snake. You'd have to be a snake for me to... Brown snakes are bad. Mine would be... They have a really boring name, but they're quite deadly. Mine would be a tiger snake, and I think that's probably the top two deadliest ones in Australia are the... My dad nearly broke my mum. The time we saw a brown snake.

Say again, sorry? My dad nearly broke mum's arm. By jumping out of fright? Because we were on a bushwalk up in far north Queensland and a snake slithered across the path. We think it was a brown snake. Unless somebody then goes, oh, brown snakes aren't in far north Queensland? I don't know. It was a snake.

And a snake came across the path and mum was walking in front of dad. So he grabbed her and pulled her back to protect her. But the next day she was like, oh, really? Really? You grabbed her so hard. She was bruised and really saw it. He was like, I'm sorry. I mean, he was trying to protect her. So she wasn't mad.

Okay. They haven't spoken since. Married for 40 years this week. Yay, mum and dad. Did not speak for the last 15. Yeah, it's been a bit awkward at home. I'm on Australia's, well, Australian Geographic's list of deadliest snakes in Australia, top 10.

Number one is the Eastern Brown Snake. So your dad did a great. And Eastern. Queensland is East. That's right. So, yeah, that's probably my. Matt, what's yours? Mine, I've come across snakes, but I don't remember ever, I couldn't tell you what colour they were.

Maybe a beige, beige brown. Okay. Tan. A tan snake? Tan, yeah, sunbake snake. Oh, yeah. Now, I would say mine would probably be a spader. Maybe a funnel web or a, they're pretty bad, aren't they?

Yeah, they're the worst. It can be, yeah. The worst. Okay, great. Even little redbacks aren't very nice. Pretty sure. I mean, it's like, you're trying to Google them, but you never know. You can normally, there's some that look, like the ones with the big, what do you call

the big, the bulbous thing? Yeah, big butt. The big butt. Packing a hoot back there. Yeah, all right, we'll find a word with that bad. I thought that was pretty bad. Somebody else recently, and I think it was someone on our UK tour who was thinking about moving to Australia and they're like, but I'm just scared.

Like, is it safe there? And I thought that was quite a cute question because we three live in the city. So there aren't just brown snakes. Like it's very sad. It's unlikely to get a snake. You'll see a spider's a bit. Yeah. Same amount of insects and just life as you would in any city.

But if you go out into the middle of nowhere, yeah, there are some things that can be. That's true. Snakes weren't that uncommon. I went to school in Warrondite a lot near the Yarra River. A lot of tiger snakes there But I mean having said that I saw a few in my time in high school It's not daily

Yeah exactly But yeah So if you are scared of Australia Because of that reason You're fine It's not a day-to-day thing You're thinking about I mean it'd be fun if it was

It's like a bi-weekly thing You're thinking about Yeah But in different places you see You can look at compilation videos Of snakes being pulled out Of people's kitchens and stuff Yeah

But they normally look in much Sunnier places Melbourne. Yeah, we're fine here. Yeah. Go visit Hobart. In our concrete jungle. Yeah, a few bloody concrete snakes.

That doesn't all the best you'll get as body a door snake. Some of what they call them? They're been terrifying. Yeah, they bloody keep the draft out. Keep the good times in. The good times being heat. Yeah, warmth. And the other Patreon bonus.

that we do at the end of the episodes is we thank a few of our fantastic patrons. Oh, absolutely fantastic. And normally when we do it, just comes up with a little game for us to play. Maybe some sort of a title we can give them or some other such thing. It is a little hard with a cult kind of.

Yeah. I don't want to give them a cult name. Well, you can maybe work off Joe's deadliest animal thing. Oh, I love that. Yes, let's give them a deadly animal. They're an example of what type of deadly animal? animal in the world. So we've talked about some of the deadliest snakes,

deadly spiders. Yeah. What are they the deadliest version? Correct. Great. Well, can I kick it off by thanking from Devon in the United Kingdom? Oh, beautiful. Devin!

This is what I used to date a Devon woman, and I think she told me that you can speak like a Devon person if you say this. Ear, I snows you. Or is that Cornish? I forget. Anyway, that was my good attempt. Either way. Is that how she spoke?

Mr. Ross Deans. No, she, I think that was sort of encouraged to lose that accent. She had it. She said she did as a kid. She spoke like that, but in school and stuff they tried to. Yeah, yeah. Which is sad to me. I don't think it's a cool accent.

Rustynees. Rustynes. Deadliest. Sounds sort of like rusty. But what is it? Rosteen. Rostoe. Rusty.

Rustines. Okay. Well, I was thinking of something. the else, but if we're going rusty, now I'm thinking of the color rust. Now I'm thinking a fox. Fox. Deadliest fox. A little fox. I like that. But I was thinking as soon as you say rusty, there's only one person I think of. And he is a crow. Yeah. The fox crow. Deadliest fox crow. Oh, okay. Yeah. Some sort of a Frankenstein monster. Yeah, it's sewn together. It's gross. From bibs and bobs. It's disgusting. Yes. It's a flying fox.

It's a crow just sewn to the back of a fox. And they're both looking uncomfortable. Like that Simpsons thing. Yeah, that's right. The ratbird. The crow's trying to fly away, but it can't figure out why it can't. And the fox is just like, oh, something's flapping. The fox is walking and the crow is sort of like. Yeah.

Air walking. That's horrific. Yeah. So Ross Deans. Sorry, Ross Deans. Ross Deans. Who else would you like to think? I'd also love to thank from Winnipeg, Canada, Craig Heinrich.

Ooh, that's a great name. Strong one. So close to the maneuver. I reckon people in his school would have called him the maneuver. That's how close it is. That's how close. You know what? Maneuvers in a strange way.

A centipede. The deadliest centipede. Craig, the deadly centipede. Craig is one of my favorite names. Craig is in the same world as Greg and Gary. And can we just, I know in the United States of America, they say Craig a lot. Craig. Yeah, do they say that in Canada as well?

Craig? Just in case Craig, we're going to give it to you. Just in case you also don't. know how to pronounce Craig. We say Craig. We say it as it's written. We say it correctly, yes. What really is written is Craig.

Craig. Craig. Yeah, but where's the E in Craig? Craig. Craig. Craig makes me laugh. Craig makes me laugh too. But that could be you. Craig or Craig Heinrich, the world's deadliest, centipede, which in many ways is a shit snake.

Can I thank some people too? That's a brown snake. Can I? Please. Please. Please. I would like to thank from Santa Rosa in California. Oh, wow.

Chase Stanley. Oh, boy. Fantastic name. Chase is a great name. Stanley's a great name. Thank you so much. Chase, the deadliest polar bear. Oh.

They're already really deadly. That is a chase I do not want to be involved in. Yeah. But. A beautiful animal. Beautiful. Extremely deadly. You know when you watch a nature.

documentary and their white fair is stained with blood from them eating a seal or something, they look insane. You know what sucks though is when you think an animal is super cute and then you find out that it's really vicious and you're like, aw. You'd never be able to. Like, I thought they were cute. You can never hug it. And then you find out they're fucking monsters and you're like, oh.

And Chase is the deadliest of all of those monsters. Yeah, congratulations, Chase. You did that, Jess. I did for you, Chase. And I would also like to thank from Aj. In, I'm guessing, Ontario in Canada? Yeah. Dylan Haywood.

Ajax, they were a footy team we used to play against in juniors, and they all had to wear helmets. So, I would say he is the deadliest helmeted honey eater, Victoria's state faunal emblem. We have a state faunal emblem? We've got two. the helmeted honey eater and the ring-tail possum. Oh, I like a little.

Is that right, Dave? I've definitely heard of the ringtail being one. I've never heard of the helmeted. It sounds like... See, we have a state insect. Do we really? What's our insect? No, isn't that what you're saying?

No, it's a bird. The helmeted honey-eater is a bird. A bird. A bird. Oh, my goodness. Grow up, mate. How do you know what a honey eater is? Have you never been bird watching?

You always heard you the first time. I thought you said honey-eater. And I was like, all right. Hey, how old? Some states have a state, like, fossil emblem and stuff. Wow. They go deep on something. So are we going with the helmeted honey eater?

The deadliest helmet of honey eater. Because I was going to go for, my uncle had a dog named Ajax, and he was a boxer. Oh. But I like helmeted honey eater. Wait, but the bird boxes. It's got little gloves on a. Oh, shit. He's got a helmet, the helmet, like a boxing helmet.

And little gloves. Yeah. And he's so deadly, but he's so cute. That's what it'll get you. Yeah, you're like, oh, little bird got little gloves. Oh, ah, ah, ah, ah, dead. Yeah. Come here, I got something to tell you.

Yeah. Oh, cute and bird like. Flatter, flutter, flutter, flutter. Death. Upercut. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah.

So thank you so much to Dylan. I would like to thank. From Marshall in Illinois, Jennifer Wellever. That is not. That goes together so well, isn't it? That's not true. Or waliva.

Welliver sounds like Jennifer Welliver. I love it. As a tribute to what I was thinking just then is the world's deadliest ant. Oh. Just a common ant. Common ant. Oh no, just the deadliest ant. Common ant.

Of the, no doubt, hundreds of species of ants in the world. Because there are some, aren't there some messed up ants? Yeah, fire ants. Like the bull ants, fire ants. Fire ants. Four. But she's just, but she is a common ant, but still deadlier than all the other ants. That's what's more impressive.

There's also the one that they call the bullet ant, which it's supposedly so painful that when you get bitten by one, it's like you've been shot. Right. That's why they call it the bullet ant. And she's even more deadly than that. Yeah. She's like a cross between a bullet ant and a fire ant. Right.

She doesn't need any of their gimmicks. No. She just gets the job done. That's right. NBD. Yeah. Come at me. Deal with it.

Come at me, fool. Shut up. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks, Jennifer Wellover. And I would like to thank finally from Birmingham in the West Midlands. Birmingham. Birmingham.

We've been there. We've been there, right? And we never announced this, but the manager of the club did tell us at that stage of the Glee Club. Adele had once played there on her way up And I imagine that she said that It's me here at the Glee Club, isn't it? No, my, no, fine Her voice doesn't match her talking voice

What a change up that is. Hello, I'm Adele. Do you guys, sorry, we probably listeners at home probably should have said, full disclosure at the top there, that was me doing an impression of Adele. A lot of you probably just thinking we'd got Adele in just for the end there. Certainly not.

We wouldn't waste Adele's time. If we were going to get her in, she'd be doing a report about Adele. But no, that was just my tip-top impression of the singer, Adele. Adel. Adel. Surname, unknown. I think it is. I'm pretty sure it's Gregson.

Unknown. Adele. Hello, I'm Adele. Et cetera. Hello, I'm Adele. Hello, I'm Adele. Did we give anything to... No, I haven't said their name yet.

From the West Midlands in Birmingham. People are like hanging out because we have a few people from Birmingham as we know because they turned up there. Jack Walton. Jack Walton. Doesn't that sound like a name of someone who in the early 20th century was like some sort of like multi-millionaire? Yeah. Like Jack Walton, inventor of the world's first dishwasher. Jack Walton.

Yeah. Twirling his cane. Yeah, he's a bigillionaire. Yeah. I'm thinking. The world's deadliest though. What are you thinking? Walrus.

Oh, they. We are awesome animals. They're probably one of my favorite, they're probably one of my favorite tusked marine mammals. Give me your top five. Okay. Top two. Think of another one. Narwhal.

There we go. Are you top two? It is a marine mammal. Yes. Yeah. That feels real good. That's probably the best thing I've ever done. But it's, is the walrus number one or in the top two?

But let me see if I can find another one. In your brain? In your brain, you mean. Oh, my brain, yeah. Oh, just getting back to the back corner. Just sitting through your brain here. Jeez, there's a lot of crossword puzzle cheat websites out there. Huh?

What this makes a mockery of the... I mean, Dave thought of one. The Nobber crossword game. Dave thought of it. I'm pretty sure. What about, will you take hippocrossword? Apotomus? Yes.

Great. Fine. The lower incisorce teeth of hippopotamuses, the heaviest of land animals never stop growing and are considered tusks. I'd consider that so. That's a fun fact. That's a fun fact. That's a fun fact. I've found that fun.

I'm having fun with it. Jack Walton, did you, as the world's deadliest walrus, find that fun? But thank you for supporting the show. And thanks to everyone we thank today. And everyone that supports the show in general at Patreon, what a lovely, community we are growing there. I'm just going to sing a quick jingle, naming each of them one more time. Thank you, Jack and Jennifer Dylan, Chase and Craig and Ross Dines. I loved that. My face did not express that to you. You looked at me with that look that you do when I'm frowning at you,

when you've tried to make a joke. Oh, hang on. I've never tried to make a joke. There was support you. And that was great. That felt really nice. Love that. Can you do that more often? Always wondered what that would feel like to have your support, Jess. Yeah, well, it only took you three years. I think it would sound a little something like this.

Hello, I'm Adele! Wow. Adele's on board. How do you feel? That feels really good. Supported. Does I wish we knew your last name, Adele Adkins. Just wish.

Only we knew. Adele. Oh, Adele Atkins. Her passport says Adele. And then if they're like, oh, I don't know if this can. They just look up from the passport. Like, oh, I'm so sorry, Adele, of course. Oh, my goodness.

It's Adele. Because it's Adele. Before she. Imagine your mom being Adele. Like, she's a mum, and that kid's mum is Adele. It does remind me of that... That's wild. That tweet I saw from Tony Hawk, the pro skater.

He was like... This is according to his story, at Customs, and they're looking at his passport. They're like, oh, Tony Hawk, that's like the name of the skateboarder. I wonder what that guy's doing now. And he's like, this! Boom! And then he did like a 360, I imagine. He did.

like just turned around. Yeah, in the spot. And they're like, okay. They're like, can you come with us? Why would they say, I wonder what that guy's doing now? Yeah, just look up, bro. I'll just like, keep that as an inside thought, you know? I don't know how those custom officials.

Yeah, you never know. You never know. But I guess the fun has to stop somewhere and that time is now. We are going to wrap up this episode, as we always do, by telling you to get in contact. We'd love to hear from you. Do Go On Pod is the handle on all the social media is Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. We're on YouTube.

We've got a bunch of live videos there now. Yes, from a recent tour. And that's YouTube.com slash do go on pod. Everything's basically do go on pod. Yep. If you search that. Yes. And do go onpod.com.

Including that. And at gmail.com. Yeah, all the stuff. Get in touch. Leave a review on iTunes unless you're confirmed. confused about soy boys. Which case. If you want to leave us for a positive review with the word soy boy,

and that would make me laugh to know it. Was that rating, like, was it a low rating? Oh, that was a one out of five. Amazing. Yeah, we shouldn't have, I don't know where it brought there. There's so many nice ones that. That's mostly nice. But that one did.

I'm so sorry, but all week I've been laughing about the phrase soy boy. That is such a funny saying. It's annoying that that person who hates us brought me so much joy. It's annoying for them because they don't want to bring you. I know, they hate to make me laugh. No, I reckon that why would you have said it if you didn't want to laugh? People don't say soy boy to make you feel bad. I think they might be trying to bring us down, but really they've brought me up to a new level.

Yeah, I've never felt better about this podcast than the fact that we've angered someone. We were going to stop. They think mansplaining isn't real. We'll never stop now. We'll never stop mansplaining because it's real, baby. What is? Mansplaining. Let me explain it to you quickly.

I'm looking in. do it. I'm sound of wonder. Genuine, let's talk about it off the pot. We'll talk about it off there, but thank you so much for listening. Let me explain it to you off the pod. Let me just give a little sizzle here. We'll be back next week with our special annual Chris Mish episode. So keep your eyes peeled for that.

It's going to be a lot of fun. But until then, thank you very much. And I will say goodbye. Later's. Goodbye, I'm Adele. Didn't actually say that. This podcast is part of the Planet Broadcasting Network. Visit planetbroadcasting.com for more podcasts from our great mates.

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