Two In The Think Tank - 206 - Dungeons and Dragons

Episode Date: October 2, 2019

Our first episode for Block 2019 (a month of our most requested episodes) is all about the world's most popular table role playing game... Dungeons and Dragons. When first developed in their basements in the 1970s, creators Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson could not have predicted that by the end of the decade they'd have a TV show, legions of fans and be living in mansions, all whilst creating a moral "satanic panic" across America.Tickets are selling fast for our upcoming live shows in IRELAND AND THE UK in December. We're heading to Dublin, Glasgow,Leeds, Bristol, London and Birmingham. Grab tickets here: https://dogoonpod.com/events/Our second LONDON show is on sale now!Support the show and get rewards like bonus episodes: patreon.com/DoGoOnPodSubmit a topic idea directly to the hat: dogoonpod.com/Submit-a-TopicTwitter: @DoGoOnPodInstagram: @DoGoOnPodFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/DoGoOnPod/Email us: [e-mail] out our other podcasts:Book Cheat: https://play.acast.com/s/book-cheatPrime Mates: https://play.acast.com/s/prime-mates/Buy tickets to see Matt and Jess live:https://mattstewartcomedy.com/gigshttps://www.jessperkins.com.au/showsOur awesome theme song by Evan Munro-Smith and logo by Peader ThomasREFERENCES AND FURTHER READINGVOX’S VIDEO - DUNGEON AND DRAGONS EXPLAINEDhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PEt5RdNHNwGARY GYGAX ON 60 MINUTES:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yShqF1YSfDsWIRED ARTICLE WITH LOADS OF GYGAX AND ARNESON QUOTES:https://www.wired.com/2008/03/dungeon-master-life-legacy-gary-gygax/EMPIRE OF IMAGINATIONhttps://books.google.com.au/books?id=NoccCgAAQBAJ&pg=PP28&lpg=PP28&dq=Kenmore+Pirates%22+gygax&source=bl&ots=eXSWkQSWAK&sig=ACfU3U0ZXZS3qmadS3e_E2wG_3MqWoZGPA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwipxJHe_vLkAhUHbisKHUPRDmEQ6AEwFXoECAwQAQ#v=onepage&q=Kenmore%20Pirates%22%20gygax&f=falsehttps://geekandsundry.com/the-story-of-dd-part-one-the-birth-death-and-resurrection-of-dungeons-dragons/https://dnd.wizards.com/dungeons-and-dragons/what-dd/history/history-forty-years-adventurehttps://www.britannica.com/biography/Dave-Arnesonhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons#Licensinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gygaxhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Arneson Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey everybody, Jess and Dave, just jumping in really quickly at the top here to make sure that you are across all the details for our upcoming Christmas show. That's right, we are doing a live show in Melbourne Saturday December the 2nd, 2023, our final podcast of the year, our Christmas special. It's downstairs at Morris House, which usually be called the European beer cafe. On Saturday December the 2nd, 2023 at 4.30pm, come along, come one, come all, and get tickets at dogoonpod.com. This episode is brought to you by Progressive. Most of you aren't just listening right now.

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You could start your new career in months, not years. Take classes online or on campus, This podcast is part of the Planet Broadcasting Network. Visit PlanetBroadcasting.com for more podcasts from our great mates. This week's episode of DoGoOn is brought to you by our UK and Ireland Krishmish tour happening this December. Our London show sold out just a couple of hours, so we've added in a new show that is on sale now, and that is, before the other show, it was a Mattenay 4.30pm Sunday, December the 8th. Oh, I can't wait for a Matt and Nay. Mmm, fancy. Matt and Nay, I like the sound of that.

It's got my name in it. Now I hate it. The Bristol show is... Of that Nay, which is the name of my horse. Oh, the Bristol show is sold out, and the other shows are selling very, very fast. If you're not aware, we're coming to Glasgow, Leeds, Dublin, London and Bristol, we will not be adding any extra cities. So...

It's a shame if a few people have been messaging us, but unfortunately just time and whatnot. And some of your villages don't have enough people to fill a show. So we aren't able to get to any other cities. Someone messaged in from a place, and I looked it up, and the population was seven. And I just don't think we can.

We're coming a long way from Australia. I don't know if you've looked at a globe, but we're quite far away. The question is, all seven people in the village listen. And do they have friends from out of town? Yeah, who are willing to visit? Anyway, all those details are on dogoonpod.com. Hello and welcome to another episode of Do Go On. My name is Dave Hornicky and I'm sitting here with Matt Stewart and Jess. I'm standing.

That's true. I'm kneeling and I'm lying. About sitting. Because I'm also standing. That's true. I'm kneeling. And I'm lying about sitting. Because I'm also standing. Yay! Yeah, it's confusing. Yeah. Especially looking at your seat over there. Yeah, no, I'm just quite short. Sorry, I know, Andrew, you there, didn't I?

Yeah, you know, Andrew. I've flunked out of your school. You know, but of him. I just... No, but Dave. Huh? That's actually one of your nicknames from childhood. No but Dave, that's right. It's such a tiny tush.

So tiny, it's not existent. I just wanted to give people an accurate, because I imagine people, you know, when they're listening, they like to imagine what we're doing. If you're listening while driving your car, we're also driving our car right now. Yeah, I'm wearing a bald gown. Yeah. What is Matt? I'm wearing a bald cap. The cow's electric.

You just said bald cap. I thought you were, for some reason I thought you were gonna say bald cap. No feathers. You plucked all the feathers off your gown. Yeah. Hey, we, I mean, you can probably tell listening at home that we're pretty excited.

There's a festive mood in here. We're quivering with excitement. Who? Because today is the official beginning of Block Tofer Grace Festival. And a Merry Block to you. Merry Block to you too. And Dave, a Merry Block to you. A Merry Block. Well, I think, sorry, I gave the full name. It's actually, the short name is Block or Block Tofest or Blocktober Grace period festival. That's the mid range one, the longer one goes for three to four weeks.

And if you're the first one to listen to the show, yes, we do speak English here. We do. A version of it. A version of it. A version of it. A version of it. Blockbuster is where the original title came from last year. When October, we did the some of our biggest and most requested topics. Yes. Blockbuster

tober grace period festival. Yes. And this is the second annual version and we're doing that again. It is week one of block. Yes. So this year we used the new system. I put on our Patreon, at patreon.com such to go on pod. I put it out to our patrons and they gave us a heap of great suggestions and then they upvoted it until I got, I think, a 20 odd suggestion from them and then I went into Jack the Hat McVity, which is where people with some as can suggest topics. Anyone can do that and there's a link in the show notes. And I took any suggestion that had, I can't remember the minimum, it was like 10 or something, like quite a few times have been suggested and they went into the vote as well. And then there was a public vote. It took me,

it took me half a day. Anyway, and then I wrote, I wrote the 50 options out and I was about 45 in and I accidentally clicked the cross on the tab and I had to begin again. No! Oh, fat fingers. This sounds more complicated than the American general election. Yeah, it is similar to that. And much like me, I thought I'd voted for the guy who had that movie about the climate

change. Oh, you're... But it ended up movie about the climate change. But it ended up going to the other guy. The guy who had the movie about climate change. Superman? Yes, that's him. Anyway, I'd love a nice quick introduction. I've nailed that here today. Basically, in summary, we're doing some of our most

requested, most voted for topics. And it is my turn this week to report on a topic. And you two, don't know what I'm going to talk about. I don't know anything. So, what's my name? I gave you keys. I gave you the keys to the results. And you've, so you've gone with, did this mean you've gone with the fourth or fifth?

Yes. We're doing five topics this month, but maybe a guest or two coming in as well. So if you surprise a superman in a way. Six. All right. So we always start. This is the fifth most requested topic for Blast. Sorry, Dave.

I just need to make sure. Do you think it's clear what's going on here? I don't. Well, okay. Let me try. Let me try. Okay. We're going to do our most requested and most popular topic suggestions.

Oh, that is good. But you didn't at all explain the convoluted system. No, I didn't need to actually. Because if you're listening, you're either voted or you had no idea and it was something new. But obviously where you're from, it's a waiting system. Yeah, so if you're from the Caribbean, your voters were three from North America's worth two. Australia only get one to one vote parity.

That's right. And it's all based on exchange rates. And yeah, so it does take a little bit of time. Obviously depending on where the ducks are flying, if they're flying north or south for the winter, depending on where you're from as well. And depending on what punk's the tone is feel. Yeah.

Does he cast the shadow? What's find out? How long, how many more weeks of spring? Our fifth, most requested topic. I heard it is my question. We always start with the question to get us on the topic. And my question is to you, what was the first commercially produced fantasy role

playing game? Oh, I've got a real advantage here because I've made the list of topics. So I think I know this one. commercially produced fantasy role playing game. Oh, I'm a, I've got a real advantage here because I've made the list of topics. So I think I know this one. You were able to remember all 49 topics. Well, I were a fantasy role playing game. Yeah, I remember all the role playing games

that were in there. 48 or 49 of our most requested topics. But I also know that someone is tallying results. I'll give just one go. Dungeons and Dragons. You got it. Yay! It is Dungeons and Dragons. You got it. Yay! It is Dungeons and Dragons.

Woo! This is a very requested topic. So shout out and thank you to all these people and there was quite a lot. So I'll try and get through that. Harry from Northampton, Jonathan Busek, who told me how to pronounce his name, he said, but Matt can mess it up if you want. I'd love to. Jonathan Buttkiss.

He's from Havenville, Massachusetts. Jeremy Flaherty from Nobilsville, Indiana. Johnny Dawson from Lester, England. Christopher M. McCalliffe from I cannot believe this is a real place. Snow home-ish. Washington. Benjamin Ward Southampton, Taylor Payne from Las Vegas. Johnny Dawson from Lester again.

Yep, I put your name into it. Colton Adrian from Chester again. Yep, I put your name into it. Colton Adrian from Chatteroy, Washington, Zach Bay from Newton, Iowa, Adam Benson from Essex, Chris from Sidmouth, Devon, Jacob Miller from Bloomington, Indiana, and finally, McKenna from Pottsdum, New York, USA. So obviously, we're not joking, we say most requested topics here, most popular. So that's exciting. That's a big, highly requested and Dungeons & Dragons this today's topic before we jump in. Do you guys know much about this fantasy role playing game? I know. Very little. I know. I mean, I've seen all three seasons of Stranger Things and they played in that. I know there's a Demigorgon at one

point. I know that and I'm also in a couple of Facebook groups like the Planet Broadcasting one and the Sandspans ones and comes up a bit in there. There's something about a dice that has a lot of sides and also some people like to collect piss colored dice. Is that a piss thing? Because that hasn't come up for me. I'd love to know a bit more about the piss.

Oh, I might be wrong. Is that not a thing? Maybe that was one person who posted one thing one time. Okay. I don't know heaps. Trypon did one show that was like Dungeons and Dragons theme. Did you show, so they're a live comedy trio? Yes.

A live musical country, I should say. And did you still go along because you're a big fan? Yeah. If I didn't have the references? It was a, I mean, it was a... Confusing hour? No. A vague theme. long as you're a big fan, if you didn't have the references. It was a, I mean, it was a... Confusing hour? No.

vague theme. It was influenced by, it was still a very good show, a great show, as all of their shows are. But basically, I don't know that much at all. All right, well, because I knew absolutely nothing. Well, so hopefully, my ignorance is coming from a place, so I imagine a lot of people at home, it's very popular, obviously with a certain sub-sector.

But if you're at home and you're like, I don't know anything about dozens of dragons, hopefully it's still interesting to you because I did not either. And I'm definitely coming, I'm just flagging that I'm coming at it as a complete novice. So if it's like your world,

I don't wanna, yeah, I speak out of turn. I actually think if you are, like if you love dungeons and Dragons so much, probably stop listening. Honestly, because when we did the River Dance episode, something I care about deeply, it crushed me. And we're definitely gonna say things wrong about it, just out of our own ignorance.

And we're probably gonna make jokes at some point, because that's our fucking jobs. So at some point, this is gonna hurt you. Jess, I can't help if you're on the front foot here. That's awesome. Dave, I just wanna double check. Did you think Jacob Miller for suggesting, because he's the one who he also suggested

on the Patreon platform? Yes, from Bloomington, India. Oh, well done, sorry about that. No, that's fine. I just spent five minutes finding that. No, I'm glad you looked that up because he also suggested it into the Jacket Hat. Oh, perfect. That's the only way.

So thank you for Donald Jenkins. So Dungeons & Dragons. For those like me who, until yesterday, had no idea about it, is a tabletop fantasy role-playing game and is described on the official D&D website. That means Dungeons & Dragons. Like this. Quote, the core of D&D is storytelling. You and your friends tell a story together. Guiding your heroes through requests for treasure, battles with deadly foes, daring rescues, courtly intrigue, and much more. I mean, it sounds really fun. Yeah, I'm caughtly intrigued right now. But how did it come about? The first game was

created by Gary Geigax. That is. At all time, great man. Gary Geigax. Gary Geigax. Gary Geigax. Gary Geigax. Gary Geigax. Gary Geigax. I've got here we have a new member for the Gary Hall of Fame. Always shit. Gary Geigax. Gary Geigax. I've got to make a Gary Hall of Fame. That's so obvious. Of course. And his friend, Dave Arnison. You remember for the Dave Hall of Fame.

Uh, please. Pretty good. Dave Arnison, he sounds like he's probably a fine guy. He's no Gary Gaggax. Gary Gaggax. Gary Gaggax, Dave Arnison. And when they developed the first game in their respective basements,

a doubt they had any idea that within 10 years they would have their own TV show, would be living it up in mansions, have 600 employees, all whilst the game they made created a moral panic across the United States of America. Arm confused. How do they... I don't ever think it was a game you could buy, so how they make their money. I guess you would have. I don't think it was a game you could buy. I just thought it... It's a bit like people just tell on stories and... No, it was a game you could buy. So how are they making their money? I guess you would. I think it was a game you could buy. I just thought of, it's a bit like, people just telling stories and

no, it's a game. Yes, a game, but you can buy like starter sets and scenarios and things like that. And the 20-sided dice that you're relating to, they're so funny. Let me talk about that. Piss color. But that is my little sizzle for Dungeons and Dragons.

Let's get into it. Well, color me sizzled. What color is that? Piss. You cooked it for me. You know what I, doesn't color may sizzle. What color is that? Pissed. You cooked it for me. No, it doesn't. Doesn't your piss sizzle a bit? No.

You got to get hot a piss. My piss is real hot. Red hot piss. I think you need to see a doctor. Oh, okay, sure. You shouldn't have red hot piss. Well, maybe I'll have the make of corp for fun. Cool.

And a corn for. I've got yellow hot piss. Oh, okay. Maybe I am the weird one. Yeah, that's right. Your, it's your piss really hot. So hot, you can't touch it. Doesn't it steam off when you're pissing against a tree or something? I don't get to piss against a tree.

Well, you got to live a little rough with you. I'm always pissing against a tree. I don't, it does. That explains why the time I had you guys over for dinner and you said excuse me, I just need to piss, which also was firstly a bit of a rude way to excuse yourself from the dinner But then you bypassed the bathroom went straight out into the garden Pist Yeah, it's always and where I grow up Australia

It's polite to piss on the lemon tree. Yeah, and you know what at the time. I didn't even think anything of it But it's Pist I think piss is hot compared Maybe I do recall steam coming off my piss. I'm pleased. I love he's trying to justify it now. I'm still talking about piss. Just in all seriousness. My piss has steam.

Yeah, if you're pissing, it's not piss. It does something very cold. Yeah, that's probably what I'm doing. Sure. Are you putting ice cubes in the toilet before you hit on them? What do you do with them? Where else do ice cubes go You're gonna paint a calada good luck silly question on my part Compton

Ice cubes. Yes. I got it. Just wasn't particularly good Continue Gary guy gags. Let's start with the beginning. Gary Gagax. Let's get back there. For the name Ernest Gary Gagax. Yeah, I mean, you would dig your own. No, it's Gary Gagax.

Only Gagax. Only Gagax. It's also great. That's a good one. Born in Chicago in 1938, he was the son of Elmina, Emily Posey, nicknamed, and Swiss immigrant and former Chicago Symphony Orchestra violinist turned suit salesman Ernst Gargax. Oh, Ernst, that's a great name.

Also Chicago is only a couple hours away from Gary Indiana. So. Well reportedly his middle name came from actor Gary Cooper also, frontrun for the Gary Hall of Fame. Wow, who's Gary Cooper been? Just a famous Hollywood. Yes, but who has he been? Gold an age of Hollywood actor. What character says he played? Who has he been? Gary Cooper, it's a fantastic name. Cooper is a sweet surname. I feel like we're getting bogged down in some weird

details. Yeah, you're both googling Gary Cooper. Just move on with the report, David. The following comes from Michael Whitmer's book Empire of Imagination, which is all about Gary Gargax, which I think Matt should read now. This is about Gary's childhood. Let me tell you about it. Quote, in the words of Michael Whitmer. His gang, if it could be called that, numbered about a dozen neighborhood boys. Most of them came from good, hardworking immigrant families.

They call themselves the Kenmore Pir pirates, because most of them lived on Chicago's Kenmore Street, and pirates sounded more dangerous than kids. That is true, actually. Their rivals, however, had come from the wealthier north side of Chicago and outnumbered them two to one. That's a double. Uh-oh. A long story short, the two gangs got into a fight and seeing their son with a black eye. This is Gary. The family moved to Lake Geneva, Wisconsin, to be with Gary's grandparents. So they moved away from Gary. Gary Gargx grandparents.

Yeah. So the kid gets in one little fight, his mom gets scared. That's it. That's it. We're moving to Lake Geneva, Wisconsin. Yeah. This is the fresh prints of Lake Wisconsin. Pretty much.

There's like a bit of an overreaction, you know, and they're Gary hated school and dropped out in his junior year and drifted for a time working just stayed in the gang. It sounds like an overreaction, but the recipe for a real fun time. He worked odd jobs and eventually went to junior college at night. Night school. He was doing nice, but whilst working for an insurance company, he discovered his love of what is known as war games. That's right, he was in a gang and they've moved him and now he's into war games. Second up or not?

War games were tabletop games, often recreating, so played on a tabletop, board game style, often recreating famous battles where figures and figurines represented soldiers and cavalry and that a dice was rolled to determine the outcome of the battle. Okay, so you're recreating it, but it's a choose your own adventure sort of. Yeah, basically. Or a dice choose your adventure. Who's going to win? Who will win World War II?

He rolled a dice like, oh my God, he'll just want. I've made a huge mistake. It was a real roll of the dice, I gotta tell you. One player would be the referee and settle disputes between the two having the actual battle. And you'll see why this is pretty influential on Garry's. That sound like this is, as I understand what Dungeons and Dragons is. But then. But there's no Dungeons, no Dragons.

Oh, that's the genius part. It's just caverny and soldiers. Right. In 1958, the age of 20, Gary married Mary Jo Powell, and they had two children. Gary married Mary Jo Powell. Pow. Pow. Pow, and you married.

All the while, Gary was still obsessively playing these epic and detailed war games, some of which could go for two months at a time. Okay. Well... Apparently, he got to the point that he was spending so much time playing the war games that his wife Mary thought he was having in affair, and when pregnant with her second child, she confronted him only to discover something much worse. That would be the breaking point for me.

Gary and some friends were sitting around a map covered table. Oh Gary, no. No. I thought it was Susan. Please let it be Susan. Busted. Busted is fun. That, yeah. How does he look in looking how's his face? Oh no?

I didn't want to see me look at me. I'm looking at my Simpsons with Yeah, what is she? That's a flight attendant right not a pilot like she thought look at me. I'm looking at me Stopping up people's drinks. Daddy? I want to see Daddy find the plane. Margie, no, no.

Fuck, it's a good bit. Apparently, they also play war games over the male with gamers across the country, which I imagine would take forever. You take one move, you roll the dice. They trusting you to not be lying. And then you'd male it to someone in California know, in California. They just do it online. Hello.

I had a webcam. They set up every laptop has one. Oh my God. I actually don't know. Just like download the app. Yeah. You know, yeah, yeah, then you just get a notification when they've played this. Why don't you just play with someone you know nearby? Yeah. Play with a friend.

Oh, oh no. Oh, oh Gary no. Oh, please have an affair. Gary was obsessed with chance in the games and found that rolling two six-sided dice resulted in six and six sevens and eights being more frequent than two's and twelfths. There's only one direct combination for 2s and 12s. You gotta get 2, 1s or 2, 6s. But with a 6, you gotta 4 and a 2.

You got 2, 3. So there's more chances of it coming up if you keep playing, keep playing, keep playing. He got his players to draw a poker chip numbered from 1 to 20 from a bag, giving every number the same 5% chance of coming up. But then he discovered in a school supply catalog That a 20-sided or I

Cosa Hadron die already existed. Ooh So he didn't invent it. No, I mean nightmare, wouldn't it? But he brought it into the world of so many but it's much more you know You only have to roll one die. But how do you know which number is it? Yeah. It's very pointy. So it's the number, I think it's the number that's on the top.

Ah. Not the number. On the left hand side, that would be much more confusing. Yeah, because that would be different. Who's left? Exactly. And it's like, look, the three of us are sitting in a circle. Yeah. It would be different for each of us.

Oh. That's where the fun begins. Oh. Oh, using these connections in the budding scene, Gary hired a haul and put on the Lake Geneva Convention or Gen Con for sure. Geneva Convention. That's what it was. I'd heard that phrase.

I never knew what it was, but a pretty significant historical event. Frang to that year. Inviting war gamers to come over and battle against each other. It cost him $50 to hire the haul and entry was just $1 per person, but he made just enough to cover the costs and he was stoked. Aww. He was just wanted to share his fun. And it was great for him because he was introduced to new people and new variations on games, and Gary was inspired to expand his friend

Jeff Perron's rule book for a new game which Gary Expanded into an entirely new game called chain male The real innovation that he implemented in his new game was that rather than just having a blocks of characters like 20 Nameless soldiers that you're rolling the die for. In his new game, you could control a single character and give that character a personality. Ooh, I like that, see? Feels more like the Sims. This is where the fantasy comes in because a lot of the people playing didn't have a personality, so they could make up personalities for...

Exactly. Yeah, and the Sims, you can be a stand-up comedian. And my Sims are always way more successful than I am. I'd really love to make up a personality for me. Can you make one for me? Yeah, big time. I'm just going to make you really good at listening and never interrupting. Okay. This is fantasy.

It's unbelievable. I want to play, I really want to play a D&D game. I've got to ask someone I know who does a D&D podcast. I can do a Patreon by the way. That's a cool idea. We should get a guru in. They can be the... Would they not be really frustrating for them? Maybe. Oh, I don't know. I don't know. I think for all from him, I think He's been seeing one pretty happy too. Yeah, in sharing. I'm pretty sure Michael Hing's one. He started without knowing what it was, I think.

Adam Kahnavale from SansPanceOne, maybe he seems like a patient guy. Maybe he'd be up for it. Okay, cool. Anyway, I could probably ask him off pod saying he doesn't listen to this. Adam? But Adam, if you are listening, get in touch. And also, he also had fun with Chainmail by making a secondary group of rules that you could add in that included magical elements like dragons, elves, and wizards.

So that's fun. So Chainmail was very much like all the other games, which was war based, but you could control one character. Yeah. But then, and you could play it that normally, but then he had a little extra a group of sort of out the back of the shop rules. Oh. Where you could add in the magical stuff. Oh.

Oh. Most of his friends he had in the war game scene didn't get the magical elements and shunned Gary and the game. Oh. They did not like it. I've got pine ears. They always, that always happens to pioneers, you know? You're breaking new boundaries.

People are gonna poo poo you. Poo poo, they'll say. Poo poo. But a friend offered to publish it, and Gary agreed. That's a good friend. Poo poo. It was not Poo poo it was per published in 1973,

and became the small gaming company's biggest hit yet, selling 100 copies a month at $3 a piece Gary at this time was working as a shoe repairer in his basement So he wasn't wealthy from the product But it suddenly became clear that he might be able to make a living out of the games That's cool Suddenly seem possible, but you know, I might do what you love never work a day, you know That's what he said with the shoes and it got old really fast.

I love shoes. I wish he's every day. Yeah. What more do you need? So Gary started to dream, but it wouldn't fully click into place until the following years, Jen Conn, Geneva Convention. Enter Dave Arnison.

Gary and Dave, two great names, we can all agree. So, did they know each other until this point? No, they don't know each other. Oh, you were that was for you were just sizzling Yeah, that was that was a bit of sizzle and I'm gonna flash back now to when Dave was born in Minnesota in 1947 So he's a bit older. Oh nine years younger than Gary. Yeah, what's the Minnesota accent? Where is it? Tell me a bit about Minnesota quickly. Do you know Midwest Midwest?

Where I start. Minnesota. They've got I cool accent, I think. And I'm pretty sure or the basketball teams are the Timberwolves, which makes it sound like maybe they're foresty. Yeah, Timbock and all. So they board a Canada and part of the board

is the Superior National Forest. Whoa. So you reckon I reckon they're pretty superior That's great. I'm also I'm pretty sure that Brandon and Brenda from 902 and I came from Minnesota Marshall from how I met your mother right. I'm pretty sure early episodes of 902 and I will be like hey Minnesota That was like they put down for the new kid in town. They're like, yeah, I do come from there. Yeah, can I help you? Similar to how you talking to me too.

Oh, I love that. In America, I love Nickna, because they're so big and everyone's moving around a lot. Everyone's Nickna is just a place they're from. Here, I just be like, hey, Melbourne. Yeah, Melbourne, what's up, Melbourne? Well, yep. Oh, what was that?

Where were you going to get? Well, no, my boyfriend is from Sydney. Oh, that's why I call him Sid. That's why people at his footy team call him Locky because of Lockout laws in Sydney, which have been repeals. So it's not even a relevant nickname anymore. Oh, they're so creative at footy clubs aren't they?

I know. Why Lockout. Clutchy. I'm pretty funny. Smack on the bum. I love that little bum tap. That's also the sound of getting something wrong on game shows. You'll hear this sound. So Dave Anderson was born in 1947, Minnesota and 1947. 1947. I would you. They're safe. You just said 57 then. It's 47. 47 is definitely the final answer. I'm not sure when I said what but 47. Let's go with that. Seven. Being nine years younger than Gary growing up. I was incorrect at some stage, surely. Growing up, Dave to loved war games.

And after receiving such a game as a present one day, he taught all of his friends to play. At 21, he found himself working as a security card guard, but spent a hand card. It's been rushed. He's the one that taps on the doors. Who has got around on a keychain on some security guards belt? And then, boom.

It wasn't the job he dreamt of having as a child, but it was paying the bills. But he spent most of his time playing war games or at the library researching how to make the battles they were reenacting more accurate. Oh, wow. So he was really into it. Take out the dice.

Oh, there's a good one. I a lot of DOS in the Western Front, I think, but it could be wrong. Dave Anderson went to the next year's Gen Con, and in Lake Geneva, he met Gary Guygex and was a little bit star struck. He was a bit of a big deal in the local war game scene. Oh, God. I love that idea. Oh, there's truck over conversation about a game Gary was developing about the naval war of 1812 and Dave was able to impress the older Gary by casually naming prices of muskets

and rations and frigates during that era. Oh, wow. Because he knew all the ins and outs of everything. That's fun. To do with war and Gary's up. I love the idea of being impressed by that. Oh, geez. Oh, my. Yeah, musk must get three of three shillings.

Oh, how are they? Oh my goodness, I must speak to you more. Yeah, it's chat, here's my card. Here's my security card. My friend, Darren. The two work together on a game called, don't give up the ship. Good stuff.

That's catchy. And even though he's impressed with Gary at first, he saw the older and more influential Gary Gargax's a bit square when it came to certain elements of the game, obsessed with tiny things and he seemed to make a rule for every single possible scenario. According to a great article from Wyard that I'll link below, which I've got a few quotes here from, Anas and the interviewer, then later, record, quote, Gary added this really lame section about single ship actions to our game, which nobody ever uses.

He described Gary as, quote, not much of a risk-taker, didn't cut school, probably didn't get into fisticuffs, our personalities weren't at all alike, and quote, even though I started the story, with Gary moving because he got into Fisticuffs. Oh yeah.

That was wrong Dave. Hmm. Despite this difference in opinion on how specific rules should be, they managed to collaborate well together purely through their loved and sorry through their shared love of games. So they made this game, but they went in their separate ways afterwards, but Aniston took a copy of GuyGax's chainmail within before the game I mentioned before. It's the one that had the little extra set of rules that you could make magical if you wanted to. Aniston, unlike Gary's friends, loved the fantastical elements and saw potential for

a whole new game, which he developed by expanding on those magical rules. He later called the game Blackmore, inspired by various things, including Lord of the Rings. Something I believe was denied for a long time, but then decades later he admitted, okay, I was influenced by Lord of the Rings. I was about to be like, those movies didn't come out for ages,

so that I remember it was a book. It was like, wow. How did he get a copy of the script? How did you, Orlando Bloom wasn't born yet. That's how, yeah, you based most things off that anyway. Yeah, was this pre-oposter, Orlando Bloom? Oh, B. Pre-O-B.

Pre-O-B. Just. Post-bloom. No, that's not quite pre-op. Pre-bloom. Pre-bloom. Pre-bloom. What Dave loved about the idea of Chainmail

was it was freeform and relied on improvisation. Oh yeah. Okay, all right, give me a scene. Okay. Forest. Forest, okay, give me an occupation. Wizard. Okay. Hello there.

I'm here in the forest on Magic Business. What be you? That is some good improv. I mean, you just, that's blocking. That's blocking. You don't say it's improv in the scene, Jess. You were meant to respond. You wait until someone says, and scene.

Yeah. Well, my... You haven't done any classes. My blocking was more just to get back onto a track. You're not familiar with this show, are you? There's no such thing. But also, if you are going to block in any month, this is the month to block.

You're right, that's why I'm blocking. Yeah. I love to block. Always be blocking. A, B, B. A, B, B. A, B, B. Always be blocking, A, B, B.

Oh no. Why did you, why did you hate that so much? That's one of the best things that's happened ever on the show So I just got it it sounds a bit like hey, baby You know you've dissected the frog there Can I just get us back to the magical world? Please do go on. Blackmore. The gaming divot from China. For us. For us.

Wizard. All right, new one. This is a new one. Oh, Wizard, what are you doing there? Hello, I'm here. One patch of potion, please. But you don't have enough money for that pouch. Let me roll this dice. Now you get it. Oh, you've played the game before.

So the premise he was developing was simple yet revolutionary. Players would portray only a single character, rather than an army, and would explore underground dungeons, which were that improvised their way through puzzles and challenges. So Dave played various games with his friends in the basement, improving the game and adding in different rules as time went by. One thing he found was the players were having so much fun with the characters that they had created that they were sad when the game and their characters ended. They didn't want to start from scratch the next time they played around, so he decided that their characters in the story would carry over from session to session

where the characters working cooperatively and improving their skill sets over time. So rather than creating that amazing background to the character, or was it in a forest, I'm having to give that up and I'm having to start again. The next game, you're a similar wizard in a similar forest. Oh, similar, not the same. Well, the same. The same, but I mean, are you ever really the same, do you know I mean? Yeah, like you're we're always growing the same a different Change

Learning becoming I know I also remember I also saw a couple episodes of community where they played D&D So I I do have a fair picture in my head. I reckon I've seen it. It's probably on Freaks and Geeks as well What's it? They did play it on Freaks and Geeks. Yeah, I feel like I know a bit about it, even though I'm still confused about the new show. It's one of those things that you just sort of pick up bits and pieces of knowledge. Yeah, it's just everywhere. I mean, if you watch one episode of Big Bang Theory, you're good at it. You get it. You get it.

They played on that. Well, let me just say, for those who are very confused, I've got a little section of this show where I, as a new, try and explain a game I've never played. Great! This sounds fun and infuriating for people who do know about it. Yeah, there's many apologies written into the text. Dave Harnesson also took the role of the referee of the game further and became the game master, setting the scene and guiding players along their quest. So that's revolutionary at this point.

That feels like the kind of role I would like. That's the big role. That's like the key role. Yeah, but the story tellers as well, though, there's lots of creativity in that role. Okay, man. And a little bit of admin. Yeah, a bad men. We get a spreadsheet going for this.

Oh, absolutely. After six months of development, Aniston and a couple of friends went over to Lake Geneva in late 1971 to show Gary Guygex what they'd created. Because remember, they'd taken his game Chainmail and they created a whole new game out of it. So I want to show the creator what they've done. They played a game of Black Boar with him using the setting of a six level dungeon. And Guygex and his crew absolutely loved it.

Oh, that's great. I was so worried. You were going to say he hated it. And he kicked him out. That's so good. So they developed Gary's game. Now he requested a copy of the rules and he expanded them from 18 to 50 pages because remember he loves rules. So he's now expanding on his idea that's been expanded, which is really, really cool. Honestly, I didn't think that it was possible to have a rule for everything, when you're asking people to use their imaginations. And Arnison later said, quote, he was always big on having different weapons, having different effects. Years later, he literally had a small book on different kinds of pole arms,

which are regarded as the ultimate insilinous. It's just a pointy thing on the end of a stick. Far out. But Gary loved to have rules. The two collaborated over the phone on the rules, rucking up a massive large phone bill, because this is the set of things. Why won't they? Scarping.

Oh my God, tech. Scarp's free, guys, it's free. Hello, Facebook Messenger. Yeah. But after a few months, GuyGax was finally ready to properly test the game, which he did at home with his friend Don Kay, two of his children, 11 year old Ernie,

and nine year old Elise. Oh, I passed Ernie down every morning. I didn't use it himself. Third generation. Ernie Guy Gax. And another kid from up the street, who has not been named. Imagine that, you're part of the basically

the first ever game of this, and you're not remembered. Ernie chose to be a warrior. Elise chose to be an elf and Guy Gaxx was stoked as he watched on as the group had a fantastic time. I'd be a little elf. Be cute. So the game's good. So the game's good. From Melmack. Should I go on? Yeah. The game's going great, the family are loving it. And he's like, this game's appealing to all ages. Now all he needed was a name, something catchy.

A name that's witty at first, but seems less funny each time you hear it. OK. The B-shut. So I had to include a sentence in the script. No, the story goes that Guy Gax paired a bunch of mythical and sword-based words together until he came to Dungeons and Dragons and his daughter Cindy. It was only four years old at the time, said, Daddy, I like Dungeons and Dragons the best. That's what he went with.

Great. Good job, Cindy. So he's got a game, he's got a name. Gary started... And he's got no shame. He's not wearing pants. Well, he started shopping the idea around a gaming company, he's telling no shame. He's not wearing pants. Well, he started shopping the idea around a gaming

can't companies telling Avalon Hill, the biggest company in the war gaming business at the time. Not that I need to tell you that. He said, I reckon this game could sell 50,000 copies. They were not interested. And neither was any other publisher. So this is a classic story, Harry Potter style, of shopping the idea around, and people saying, that's not going to work. Because people would be coming to their shops every day going, hey, we've got a new game. I didn't realize how big it was. It's a big thing. Even today, people making up new board games.

Yeah, yeah, people love it. The main problem was when he was pitching was that people couldn't understand a game with no winners and losers that in theory could just go on and on and on. Because you just go on these quests together. Yeah. It's not like monopoly when, you know, there's a winner at the end and everyone else is sad. Who's ever finished a game of monopoly, though? I never have. I've never finished monopoly.

It's too boring too early. Yeah. And it's somebody. It seems fun you get to pick a car or something. Yeah. That's fun. You go fun you get to pick a car or something. Yeah. That's fun. You go round a bit. Yeah, go to jail.

Oh, one second prize in a beauty contest. We're having fun. Yeah. By the third loop, I'm over it. Yeah, I'm bored. I like monopoly. Of course you do. Yeah, you're a big kid.

Dirty Kappa, that's why. Yeah, you're a dirty Kappa. That's fun. You're a dirty Kappa. Have you ever finished a game though? Absolutely. We have one many. Who are you playing with? Our family, friends, either of those people in the mail. You're very much alone Dave. I really it's just it's a fun game

Yeah, you just have to be prepared to lose which is fine. Yeah, but it's just a long pain for losses Long It's a point of that game. It was built to show people how fucking capitalism is. And people, oh my god, capitalism is really fun. Yeah. What's the point of the game? How do you win? Are you bankrupt, everyone else?

And you become the only person with the capital? That's fucked. Yeah. That's life, man. I'm doing that right now. Who are you bankrupting? No, I saw I'm being bankrupt. I'm being done that too right now.

I'm very much winning the game at this point. Yeah, David. Yeah, it's no Yatsi, let's be honest. It's no Cludo, is it? Cludo, great game. I'm great at Cludo. I love Cludo, I love Boulder Dash. I love Cranium.

Scategories. Scategories, love D&D. Scrabble? Now, Scrabble I like. D&D I've thrown in there. I'm so new-fave. Buggle? Buggle?

It boggles the mind. The mind, it boggles. There are a lot of do-like board games. I never play them. We should play board games. I'd love to. Let's have a board game night. All right, let's do one.

We're in one of our one night nights off in the UK and Ireland. Let's play a board game. Oh yeah, we're not playing it. We're night out nights off in the UK and Ireland. Let's play a board game Oh, yeah, monopoly here week. That's definitely how I want to spend our night off six hours playing board I can't tell if you mean so I can't tell either I don't know what future meal want to do. I also lock me down. I love card games There's also been a lot of a lot of pubs seem to have like a stack of board games now I've never seen anyone play him But they seem to be in a lot of pubs in the corner like you know, Loungey pubs like connects for and stuff. Yeah. Yeah.

We've played connect forward a cafe. Yeah, we have. Yeah. You I won. I don't think that's true. I think that one. Anyway, do go. So he's trying to sell this, but Gary can't get anyone to buy the game. Despite him saying, this is going to sell 50,000 copies in revolutionized the biz. He's a good salesperson. Well, apparently not because no one said he might want to. But he decided to scrape together some money and form his own company. Whoa.

He called it Tactical Studies Rules or TSR. Okay. He co-founded it with his old friend Don Kay, who was there the first night they played with Gary's kids. They didn't ask Dave Aniston, the co-grad of the game to join. Quote, Dave was never considered as a partner. Gagek says, we didn't figure he was the kind of guy who would be too good at running a business.

Oh, there's no one. Now it's something to make sense why Aniston's taking pot shots from the future about his, oh, he loves rules. He made too many rules about sticks. Didn't know what to do., but if it was the inside and they got on well, he'd probably be like, you know, he, yeah, he's strengths was he loved rules.

He loved rules. He loved rules. He's a genius. He's a real maker. I love him. I love him. I rule number one was exclude me from the money. But, I just had a later,

I can't believe Guy, Guy Gax is a dog. No, no, no. I just had a later agreed saying that he was, he was, at the time, he was just having fun enjoying the thing. And he did later go on. He didn't was just having fun in doing the thing. Right. And he did later go on, he didn't get stooched of all the money. Okay.

Don't worry too much. But D&D sold 150 copies in its first month. Whoa. And by summer, TSI ordered another thousand copies. So it was doing pretty well. At $10 for the rules and $3.50 extra for the dice, it was pretty pricey at the time, because this is the early 70s. But through word of mouth, the game spread from college to college and sold out its second run as well.

The company made extra money by selling game scenarios, basically the equivalent of today's like expansion packs, that Guy Gax and Arnison wrote, so Dave got money from that. He'd come up with the scenario and like, so is an employee basically. Yeah. In a way, yeah. Cool. Yeah. That a way, yeah. Cool. Yeah. That did really well.

But it became a cold hit and instantly revolutionized the wargaming scene, which beforehand had just been for people that were into military stuff, military buffs. But D&D appealed to people that liked fantasy as well. And this brought in something new. Women! You'll be, you know, women like fantasy, men like war, is that what you're saying? That feels a bit like a false dichotomy to me Dave

So am I saying that right? I don't think so Sorry, I wasn't listening. I was fantasizing And I was over here blowing up a tank Sorry, well, did you were you talking sorry? Arniston later recalled again from that wide article with the interview. A lot of war gamers sat around talking about the latest historical books. But these Dean DeGroves. The latest historical.

We like to keep up with the latest in historical things. These Dean DeGroves were from the science fiction community. And there were women. You go from having none at a convention to having 20% women. And then he says, no groupies though, darn it. Oh, they're innocent. They're innocent.

No groupies. All those women. Now there's 20% women and none of them will have sex with me. None of them groupies. Who's, who, why are you getting, why are you expecting groupies as a guy who made up some games?

He's seeing himself as the reason that these people are there. He's like, he's seeing himself as the reason these people are there. He's like, he's seeing himself as the rock star of the war game business. Right. And you're out just, no one's sleeping with him. Oh, that's so disappointing. Why do anything?

If no one will sleep with you. It sounds like an attitude thing to be honest Dave. Yeah. Are you talking to me or the other Dave? Because he's the one who said it, not me, can I just say it? Hey, don't matter, you quoted him. At this this point I can't tell the Dave's a part as soon as you quite so on you agree with them Am I right yeah? Mm-hmm This episode is brought to you by progressive most of you aren't just listening right now

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Mycomputercareer.edu. What I'm going to do is stop the story here. Oh, just... All right, thanks so much for joining us, everybody. Great, and that's lunch. Great, and that's lunch. Just to attempt to give context for what the game is before I keep going for the second part of the story.

Is this the part where you're going to try and explain to you? Yeah, yeah, sorry. Great, I can't wait. Because I've never played D&D, I've watched a bunch of videos describing the basics to try and work out how I can explain to other people that never played the game, vaguely how it works. Very much the blind leading the blind here. But this is just to give the game a vague context for anyone listening who's never played.

Again, if you're a diehard player, then please come with some slack. But my understanding is, every game has a dungeon master or a DM. This is the lead storyteller and a due decater of the rules. The DM creates and sets the scenes and obstacles for the players. The players job is to work together to survive the challenges and explore the world all whilst having fun with your friends. Oh, that's written in other rules. You got to have fun. Rule one have fun.

I don't want to, I want to cause drama! That rule is definitely not written into monopoly. Then everyone playing the game gets to create their own hero. They choose their characters race. Is it a dwarf? Is it an orc? Are you a human? Are you a wizard or these sorts of things? That's a race, is it?

According to the game, yes. Could you be like an orc dwarf wizard or a... Yeah, do I do any sort of crossbreeding? Yeah, I probably could That's an expensive pack. You got a paper My mom was an orc, but my dad's always at my dad was a beluga whale. So I'm massive My dad blew a whale No, sorry my dad's John McAfee. So

Yeah, we got up to some weird stuff at home So my whole is anyone remembering just looking at me like I've may I've come up with something there that was a So yeah, if you got up to some weird stuff, I can't. Is there no one remembering? Just looking at me like, I've come up with something there. That was a John McAfee thing. I vaguely remember it. Once I leave this studio, I forget everything. It's a terrible terrible thing. Well, we recorded that one in my place.

Right. One of the most fun parts of the game that people who play, keep pointing out in the videos was that it can be really fun to scapish them because you don't have to be yourself and you can be whoever you want to be in a room full of other people pretending to be other things as well. That's a big part of the game. So you pick, I want to be an awk and then you get really into it.

And big part of the game is because everyone else is doing the same thing. You're not getting laughed at for your creation. That's a big part of the fantasy of it. Everyone also has a character sheet that describes their character and also gives them stats which influence how well they react to things in the game. So you might be really strong, but your character might be really dumb, but that might be really smart, but not strong, so you can work together. Hang on. That felt a little too targeted.

Little too close to that. I am very strong. I'm the strongest. For example, your character might have really strong legs, but I'm also the dumbest. I'm being incredibly thick. I get, Dave, I'm picking up my legs and think of the same thing, mate. Hey, that's an awoke. Yeah. Did you know what an awoke was? It's sort of like a big, mussely, bold guy with walrus tusks. That's probably me, actually. Did you know that? But like a lady. I always wondered what they were.

So probably real hot. Yeah, lady pirates were always hot. Yeah. So like, lady looks sexy. Like Princess Fiona, you know? Yeah. She's like, sure, she's an ugly. No, I know, but I'm saying like,

Shrek is ugly. I'm not there. But Fiona, bit of a babes still, you know? I mean, you're saying Shrek's not? That's exactly what I said. I said Shrek is ugly. I don't understand it. Are you telling me that Shrek is unattractive? Yes, physically.

I don't understand. I'm not computing the babe. Oh my god. Did you want a fuck Shrek? Yeah. I'm so confused by that question. Oh wow. Is that rhetorical? I mean, I guess we all have different tastes. Does their Pope shit in the wood? Do you want to fuck Shrek? These questions are rhetorical.

Dave, as you have a sip on your water, I want to see if you are really a ventral quest or if... Dave, do you go on? I stopped drinking five minutes ago. Everyone has a character seat and it says, like your stats, for example, you strengthen measuring your physical power, carrying capacity, constitution, which measures your endurance, your stamina, your good health, charisma, measures your force of personality, your specialiveness.

And whether or not you could lead a cult. Absolutely. But one of the videos I watched was from Vox and I'll link that to that into the description because it's quite interesting to watch people play it. But they broke the game, play down into three basic steps. One, describe, two, decide, three, roll. Describe, the dungeon master describes what's happening. For example, you see a smug-looking goblin standing up on a hill ahead.

They're all smug, there's fucking goblins. Two, decide. The heroes decide what action they want to take. EG, should we kick him in the nuts? Yeah, probably should. Kick him in the nuts. Tiny goblin nuts. Tiny little goblin nuts. Finally, roll.

You roll the dice to see whether your action was successful. Ah, so you roll the wrong number, and then that's where the guy on the cape goes, and we're like, ah, you took a big swing with your foot but your mists and you fell on your butt. Yes, totally. That's exactly it. This is where the D20 or the famous 20-sided dice comes into it called the D20 for the cool kids. The higher you roll, the closer to 20, the more likely you are to succeed in your actions. Then you also add in bonuses from the character sheet that gives you bonus depending on your character's traits and strengths. So if you have to outsmart someone

in a game, you've got to roll the dice to see if you're able to do it. The higher you roll them all like you are able to do that. But say you're all a 13, not that great, but a mid number, but then you have a plus three in intelligence on your sheet. You add that to the score. Suddenly you've got a 16 baby, so you're probably gonna get away, you're probably gonna outsmart them. Right, cool. Is that sort of arbitrary a little bit? So like the difference between the 12 and a 13,

it's a little bit of that. Yeah, so that's up to the DM. They decide, oh, you got lucky there, or not you fell on your ass, whatever you want. So your DM keeps describing stuff, you decide what to do, and then the dice gives you a score, and basically just basically just basically decides if you can do that action or not with a bit of discretion from the DM. And that very simply is how you play Dungeons and Dragons. Right.

And it just goes on forever. Yeah, basically. Can you die? Yeah, I think you characters can die. It does sound slightly unsatisfying, but obviously there's satisfaction in there. What if you die early on and your friends just keep playing and you're like, well, I guess I'll put on some of my points. Have you ever been bankrupted early on in Monopoly? It is very dope boring because you went, ah, stuff, I'm going to build a hotel here and then you land on someone else's thing and you go, oh. But then you go watch the footy in the front room.

Yeah, the good room. That's basically it. So that's my very basic understanding. I've definitely missed over some fun nuances, but I don't know if watching videos like that made me understand a bit more how it works. You're listening to that, and I'm sure you're thinking, Dave, that sounds quite satanic in nature.

Yeah, I wasn't thinking that. I was. And parents of the late 70s and early 80s would agree with Jess. Right. I am basically a parent of the late 70s. You know how I said it was unsatisfying because there's no completion.

I was like the idiots who knocked back by buying that game. You know, the guys who said that will never work. Oh, you're that guy. Yeah, even though I've heard that it's not required to have a finish. Without a decision, you just lost out on being a millionaire. Well, let me roll the stars and say,

how successful I am at rejecting the game. Ooh, 20, damn it. Successfully lost. No, it's a loss. So next part of the episode is about the Satanic panic around this game. Ooh, that's fun. That is good fun.

Christian groups are the biggest problem with D&D for the alleged promotion of devil worship, witchcraft, suicide, murder, and the presence, most importantly, of naked breasts and drawings of female humanoids in the original manuals. Okay. Boobs. Boobs on humanoids. Oh my god.

Boobs. You didn't mention the about boobs. Yeah, that's quite a few. You're all the dice with the get-to-boobs. Are you saying to them that was worse than the satanic aspects of which you haven't mentioned any? What other satanic aspects of which you haven't mentioned any? What other satanic or you're about to do? Well, just things like orcs and witchcraft.

Say you can, you can, in theory, summon devils and do spells, because remember it's an open game. You can decide whatever you can do. But in theory, you can summon God and... Oh, absolutely. So, yeah, that's the weird thing about it. That's just the world, you know, Christian, these Christian groups had a problem with the world, right? Well, anyone can do whatever. Yeah, they certainly I'm not playing that game I'm summoning devils and worshiping whatever's

potentially Where's my where's your Christian group now? Don't have a problem with you. Where's your Messiah group now? Well, let me explain a bit more. I actually have a guy's called Christian. Oh. I just hang out. And they hated the game. And they hate this game.

Yeah, they're just jokes. There's balloons. Nothing religious. They're just all called Christian. That makes sense. So up until this point, the game was a hit, but only an underground hit for people in the know. But in 1979, this would all change when D&D became

front page news for all the wrong reasons. In 1979, Ohio born 16 year old child prodigy, James Delis Egbert III. Oh my God, Annie's from Ohio, what a legend. James Delis Egbert III. The third. What kind of child prodigy was he? A D&D child prodigy.

No computer science, child prodigy. He disappeared from his room at Michigan State University where at only 16 he was studying computer science Right, okay, so you know they accelerated into university level. What years is 1979? He's doing computer science. Yeah That's how advanced he was he was on the internet before it was invented. What kind of computers? Calculators he's studying calculators. That was the computers that were the size of it for Porfield. He was the first one to find out you could write boobs upside down on calculators. I'm like, get this guy to uni. Oh my god.

Man, it's gonna blow his mind when you figure out you can also do boobies. What? No, they only had like six numbers at a time. His parents knew little about role-playing games, but when their son, they knew their son was into them, and when he disappeared, they came to the conclusion that that's why. His family hired a private investigator to look for him. So the family are out there blaming D&D,

and it became a large new story, quoting from a BBC article here, "...In truth, Egbert suffered from among other things depression and drug addiction, and had gone into hiding, and the utility tunnels underneath the university during an episode of self-harm." This led this to be dubbed the steam tunnel incident. The case inspired the apparently terrible made-for-TV movie Maze's and Monsters, which featured Tom Hanks in his debut film. Hanks freaks out from playing too much D&D and stabs one of his friends in a steam tunnel after hallucinating that he's been turned into a monster.

Right. Okay. So it doesn't quite seem like that's what happened. No, but this thing is like that. And people are like, oh my god, this game's evil. That's a powerful board game. Making people do stuff. The real egg bit was not well mentally.

And after secretly emerging from the tunnels, he hid from his family tunnel, he hid from his family at friends houses for several weeks. So it went on and on in the media, whereas this guy was so hoping it was having an affair. Please. But why did they automatically assume that it was the fault of a game? That's weird, isn't it? Well, there was also a red article that say that he was struggling with homosexuality and these families were sort of in denial about that.

And they were looking for something to blame. They were in denial about that he has mental illness and that he himself is struggling with homosexuality. So they're like, it must be this devil game. That's the only thing that we will publicly admit to is a reason that he would behave in this way. Eventually he was found and tragically he did take his own life a couple of years later. But this is the one thing. This is the

Put D&D onto the front page and then it started. Other Christian people were like, oh hang on. This is a problem. My kids playing this as well and It was the not the only suicide link to the in the media to D&D, furthering its reputation as satanic. He's, that's so strange. Patricia Pulling an anti-occult campaigner from Richmond, Virginia claimed that her son, a high school student had taken his own life in 1982 because of his involvement with role playing games, specifically naming Dungeons and Dragons. To quote the BBC again here, quote, again, it was clear that more complex psychological

factors were at play. But Patricia Pulling, probably very tragically, was looking for answers in her mind, D&D was the cause of the tragedy. So she tried to sue TSI games and also her school's principal, and when these were thrown out, she decided to found an organization called BAD, B-A-W-D, which stands for bothered about dungeons and dragons. I can't bothered. I can't bothered.

Tell you what, I am passionately a bit bothered by this. That's so great. She described D&D as quote, a fantasy role playing game which uses demonology, witchcraft, voodoo, murder, rape, blasphemy, suicide, assassination, insanity, sex perversion, homosexuality, prostitution, satanic type rituals, gambling, barbarism, cannibalism, sadism, desecration, demon summoning, necromanics, divination, and other teachings.

And so she's listening to this to deter people? Yeah, yeah. Because if anything, my is a prick. Yeah, I want to play. I'm going to play, please. My pointy orki is a prick. I'm sorry.

There's boobs in this. I'm in. Pulling in bad, the bothered people launched an intense media campaign through conservative Christian outlets as well as mainstream media, including an appearance on the current affairs show, 60 minutes where she went head-to-head with D&D co-creator Gary Geigax.

Oh, glad he got his, have his say. Which you can watch on YouTube, which I did. Gary was saying stuff like, quote, well, to use another example, if you play it monopoly, no one gets bankrupted in real life, it's just a game. And she replied it's not like Monopoly. There's no board. It's role-playing which is typically used for role-playing mind modification Okay, he went fair enough

It's fair enough to get me there that is typically used for that The whole 60-minute story is particularly alarmist and I'll link to it. Oh, the journals have gone that way. Yeah, definitely making it really by the same phrase. I thought 60 minutes used to be like a legit sort of journalism outlet. That was probably considered legit then. Oh right. But yeah. When Patricia, what Patricia and other D&D campaigners didn't realize it was what they were doing for the game, is they were increasing visibility of it, and this in turn caused it to become more popular in the mainstream.

People who had never heard of it before were now hearing about it for the first time. Boob. And of course, you tell people, like teens not to play something because it's dangerous, and they're like, well, we're in, baby. Tidely. So in 1982, the company saw its D&D sales shoot up to $16 million for that year. Hey, any publicity is good publicity.

I was selling better than ever. That's crazy. I just hiccuped mid-word. That's crazy. Easy. As the popularity of D&D and other role-playing games increased, pulling's views and statements, this is a pretty sure word, increasingly called into question.

I don't want to laugh at her too much as she tried to get lost her son, but she did once tell a newspaper reporter that 8% of people living in Richmond, Virginia, were Satanists. She arrived at that figure she explained by estimating that 4% of adults and 4% of teenagers were involved with Satanism, and then added that together to get 8%. When the reporter informed her that mathematically that's still only 4%. Not 8%. She claimed that it did not matter because even 8% was a quote conservative figure. So she was really clutching its straws.

Oh dear. But because of this guy, Gag's Gary received death threats and reportedly had to hire a bodyguard. Oh man, okay. Sorry. Quick sidebar here. Bodyguard? Yes. No. Okay. I worked the other day. I was up in the triple J offices and I was walking in in the morning and there was a passive man. What's that happened to your face? You okay? She's looking at Matt for the record, not me. My face is still fine. What does that, does that have a yarn that you were stifling?

Okay, sorry to bring it up, but you looked in pain for my men. There's no, I mean, if someone's going to stifle a yarn, yeah, and then I brought it up. I mean, it's pretty impolite to bring it up. I'm sorry, I was worried that you were don't. You were, no, you were boring. I know, I know. I walked into work and there was a massive man.

Like his shoulders were like four times the width of mine and he was really tall. He looked like an orc, he was massive shaved head. And I walked in and I was like, the my first thought was there's been some kind of security incident. Something has happened at work. Someone is in trouble. I was scared.

And then I realized it was T-shirt to the WWE. Oh my God, I saw that dude. It wasn't even that dude. It was that dude's security guard. Security guard. So the dude you're talking about is I was doing warm up for the audience on the project. And you get live guests in the studio and the wrestler was Mark Henry. Yes. Well, I was big fan of wrestling back in the day. So I was stoked to see him there.

He was big back in the day. Yeah, so he's in now in the WWE Hall of Fame. And he's actually the world's strongest man. Like he competed in... Oh, he's got all the time. Lifting records. Yeah, pulled two truck semi-travels. Once all this kind of stuff. But Jess is not talking about the wrestler, are you?

No. I'm going to give about his security guard. Because I looked over and doing the audience warm up. Oh my God, he saw him do it. I saw the dude and I saw the WWE logo and I went, sure, that guy's got to be a wrestler as well. After I asked the people dealing with the talent on the show and they were like, oh no, that was just

the security guard. He was the biggest dude I've ever seen. He was the biggest dude I've ever seen. He was so big and I thought he was wearing a security line yet and I was like, someone has died at work today. Like we are not safe here. I was like, what is happening?

Tattoo's coming up his neck. Yeah. If you need a, I mean the strongest man in the world has a security guard. They're gonna have to be a huge man. He was a norm. You gotta get the baddest man in the world to protect the big strongest man in the world.

I can't believe anyone who's bothered. What? The baddest man in the world, is he bothered? It's bothered about Dungeons and Dragons the most. I still don't understand. Bad. Bothered about Dungeons and Dragons, bad. The thing you just talked about a couple of minutes ago.

I'm back on board. Okay, great. Are you with this now? I am. I don't know. Why did I start talking about this massive man? I've forgotten. Dave said something about a security guy. Security guy. I got excited about it. Yeah. Right. This dude. Oh man. So huge. But just being the awkward person that I am, I didn't hesitate. I just walked into work and said, like, hello, and just kept walking. That's not awkward, that's less than awkward. Yeah, you're right. But also, if something had happened, that was a weird thing to do.

But nothing had happened, just an interview was happening. Man, it was an absolute bad-ass. Huge, huge, huge. Bothered us. Anyway, I don't understand. Do go on. All right. Everything seems to be going quite well, business-wise.

Yeah, everyone's okay, we're having a good time. Despite having an animated TV show based on the game and accumulating a small fortune, things didn't go well for Gary Gargax in the 1980s. He was in talks to make a Hollywood film based on D&D, probably even talking to Orson Wells to make it. What? But things fell apart for him when his once small business became a large corporate entity and he handed over running of the company to businessmen

So he could focus on the creative side of the project Businessmen, what have they ever done? Yeah. Well, sadly this businessmen did not do a good job And suddenly they were in massive debt Gary recalled quote They were in 1.5 million dollars in debt when I came back. There was 70 something odd company cars and there was something like $1.5 million in furniture. Oh my God. He was like, what are you spending the money on? Why did he have 70 company cars?

I don't know. So we brought in another person. He was like, this, I think it was a lady, she'll sort this out, we can trust her. She did an even worse job and lost even more money and also bought out Gary's shares so he no longer had a controlling stake. Oh, what the hell?

There were legal battles over the next decade as TSI would try and attempt to stop Gargaxe from creating a competing role playing game. So he's basically been bullied out of his own business and now they've made it so he can't create his own. That's a weird. He's not super good at business so he brought in people who are super good at business. And they weren't but they were, they were good at the game of business because they pushed him out. But he's good at the business of games. Yeah.

But not of the game of the business. Really, there was a Yinn and Yang thing there that they could have worked together. Tell them they put two Yins and another of them could work out business. No one had a Yang. They were Yang free. Didn't have two Yens and another of them could work out business. No one had a Yang. They were Yang free. Didn't have two Yangs to rub together. So that's almost something. It is almost something, yes.

And if that wasn't about enough, the two creators, Guy Gax and Dave Anderson also had a dispute over royalties and credit, and they sued each other before coming to an agreement that they reportedly can't talk about. They continued to talk a bit of shit sued each other before coming to an agreement that they reportedly can't talk about. They continue to talk a bit of shit about each other. Gary said, his contributions were ideas. Nothing more. Dave can't design his way out of a paper bag. We just walk out of it.

I mean, how big is a paper bag? Yeah, I mean, it's pretty big of his in it. If it's like, oh, I was thinking like, it's like, one of a tux shop lunch bag. Oh, so just pull it off your head. Yeah. That no design required there. Just stuck on your foot, just use the other one to get love.

Yeah. That's really easy. But despite not being able to design that paper bag, Dave was a bit nicer. He said, quote, we each brought something and we had fun. When the money came, people's personalities changed. That's all I'm going to say. Everything went fine when it was just a bunch of guys working out of basements. And I wish that had gone on longer. Money does change people. It's not if it's sad. It's why I just get rid of all of it.

Yeah. That's smart. Things will never hurt me. I found that quite sad that he was, yeah, he wished for the days of them, just, you know, him working as a security guy that had not come home and just mucking around in the basement. But then now he's, you know, millions of dollars are involved. And he's like, I prefer the basement. That's classic though. Everyone talks like that. Here, more experienced comedians, they talk about their favorite jobs are coming up, you know, get to work with your mates more and all that sort of stuff.

I think that's just classic nostalgia stuff. Being younger is better. Really is. I'd swap with you guys in a second. Yeah, you're so lucky Dave, you're the youngest of all of us. Yeah, I would not swap with either of you for a second. I'm hanging onto this extra 48 hours of youth. But I think that makes sense, you know,

apart from the fact that all the stress comes in with money, but also, you know, you've got everything's just potential and it's exciting at the start. Yeah. Then there's pressure once you do start to succeed. Yeah, I think that would make, that would make sense to me. Yeah, totally, totally.

But for me, the sweet spot would have been between the basement and between suing your friend. Yeah. When you had the money and you still got your friend. Surely that's the time you want to go back. You had a bit of money, enough money. But if you go back to the basement stuff, you've still got that bit to come.

That's true. You get to relive it all again. Yeah. That's a good one. Go back as far as you can. Gary Gaggak sold his final stake in the company in 1985. The company continued on, but in the early 90s it faced stiff competition from computer games.

In 1997 it found itself deeply in debt. It was bought out by the Wizards of the Coast, the company that makes the hugely popular trading card game Magic the Gathering. Oh, I've heard of this as well. So they're a massive, massive company. So selling millions and millions of cards. They made D&D profitable again. And since that time have released three more versions

of the game, most recently, the fifth edition coinciding with D&D's 40th anniversary in 2014. Fifth edition. Some reason I assume that'd be more. Yeah, so they just bring out new... What's that every eight years they bring on average? I think for a while there they went for, you know,

many, many years without bringing out any version, just rehashing. Despite the competition of computer games, D&D continues to be massively popular, and some people say it's having a renaissance now. Yeah, it feels like podcasting might have even played in that, because there's so many D&D podcasts. Yes, there's heaps out there and many, many popular ones. A film was finally released in the year 2000 and massively flopped. Oh, in 2000. In the year 2000, yeah. Wow,

the future. One of the Wayans was in it. Okay. Damon. Maybe Marlon. Maybe Marlon. By 2004, consumers had spent more than a billion US dollars on Dungeons and Dragons products. And the company had been played by more than 20 million people. And in 2007, it was estimated as many as 6 million people played the game that year alone. Sadly, neither of the creators are with us anymore. Gary Gargagg's died in 2008 of the age of 69.

Having continued to create all that time, his role playing game, Castle's and Crusades was published in 2005. Dave Anderson died the following year in 2009 at just 61. He taught computer game design and game rules design at full-sale university from the 1990s until shortly before his death. Oh wow. Both in the 60s so young. Yeah, both very young, but they're a game that they created hugely influential. There's so many spin offs that have come from it, so many different medias that influence but basically role-playing games on computers now, which is one of the most popular style

of game. I call them MMORPGs. All game. I call them RPGs. All right. I call them MMO RPGs. Massively multi player online role playing games. They are. Yeah. A lot. Most of those side dungeons dragons is an influence.

So it's still an extremely influential thing over what a warcraft is an example. Is it that is an example? The Sims. So an example. Can you play? Do you play online with people? You people you can they're just two I could go on please one more red red dead redemption Cowboys yeah that is all right love that love that that's video game chat done for the week. Oh, but that is a noose. That is a noobs guide to Dungeons and Dragons the first episode of block

Oh block baby block off and to me else now I've seen that I've watched people play it. I'm keen to give it a go Oh, we gotta do you're doing a bonus episode You should hook up a game with some sort of a DM stands for Dungeon Master. It took me about half an hour after you said that to crack the code, but I got there. Bloody well done. Yeah, so maybe someone from a D&D is for nerds on the SansPants network. It's a fun and popular. Friends, Dean Deport. What's Hings one called? Dragon Friends.

Dragon Friends. Oh, another, and that's a live one that they do in front of an audience. That would be really cool. Yeah. Maybe we should just do a live one. Our first ever time. It's just two hours of people yelling,

you can't do that. Oh, no, the dice has gone down a crack. Oh, no. Can't get it. Anyway, thanks for coming out. I'll just make up the numbers. I'll spin around and say a number. I'll be the human die. I'll just die. I'll die. Uh, thanks so much to everyone that suggested that topic and voted for it to be a first block report. Yes, thank you so much everybody. It's so good to be in block again. I mean, we're actually,

you know, peak behind the curtain. We's so good to be in block again. I mean, we're actually, you know, peak behind the curtain, we've recorded this just before block actually began. It's so exciting to be in the future right now. I cannot wait for the clock to tick over to block. Block start. Block a clock. Slightly early for us. Yeah, but so pumped up and we've got, um, so four more weeks of block to come.

And they're included, going to include some of the hugeest topics. This one, there was... In more huges. Uh, three topics are even more huger than this. I have to figure out from Dave, I don't know how we figure it out without spoiling what the topic's up, but we'll figure out that out off the pod. How? Yeah, so stay tuned for that the next coming weeks are going to be full of block.

And now it is time for everyone's favorite section of this show. It's the Fact Quotal Questions section, or is Jess the jingle goes? Fact Quotal Questions! And this week the Fact Quotal Questioner is Richard Frederick Schubert the third. And the way that you can get involved in this is supporting some Patreon at patreon.com such to go on pod and this is on the city sharnberg deluxe resting piece memorial level of support you get to give a factor quote or a question or yes you ask the question you know give a question but you know that's a man tox now you'll give a question you can give a question you also get to give yourself a title and Richard Frederick Schubert

the third I think he's always, I mean, the same title, the title of Caveman. He is the official Caveman of the pod. That's for sure. He is the official Caveman of the pod. Richard Frederick, classic caveman sounding name, Richard Frederick Schubert III. Yes.

RFS3. And he has given us a question. And oh my God, you know, I don't read these out before I do them. This is free. His question is, I'm not fucking around. This is genuinely full. Quincey, he's just the next one list. What are each of your dungeons and dragons classes? And why? Oh my god. Thanks again, guys. Keep up the great work. What? What? What are each of your, I don't know, what does that even mean? You didn't talk about classes. No, I'm sorry. I got to look that up because that was not in the two YouTube tutorials that I watched

I'm I'm so hot we're got food coming yeah, and I'm hungry, but that is freaked me out Weird What's going on weird? I mean that's probably just a small coincidence, but that is tripping me Yeah, that's pretty cool. People have jobs, but adventures have classes. Class defines an adventurous skill set, where's this do magic? Drew is interface with nature, barbarians hit things. Sounds like me.

Not a job or an area of study classes are more like occupations or callings. A bard, for example, might not get paid to play music, but they weave magical music, playing into their life. Yeah, big time, I'd be paid to play music, but they weave magical music playing into their life. Yeah, big time. I'd be a bard. Okay. I'd have a song called bard from that show. Ah, the bard. Guilty is the bard. I'll give you some options. There are 12 basic classes in D&D. Barbarian, Bard, Cleric, Druid, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Sorcerer, Warlock, and a Wizard. Oh, those last three, I just feel like it's putting hairs on, they're just magic men.

Yeah. Well women. I, my first instinct, my first instinct was to go with monk. I'll tell you about monk because they don't have sex. I thought you were a fucking monk. Accurate, no. Because they're monkeys. Well, maybe I don't have sex with monkeys. Is that yours?

No, it's because they brew beer. Oh, I see. Well, I'll read out the class description. You tell me this is you. Monk, a master of martial arts, harnessing the power of the body and pursuit of physical and spiritual perfection. That matters to it. Yeah. That's who I aspire to be.

Also brewing beer. I'd love to be a bard. What was the one after bard? Cleric or something like that? That feels admin and I'm think that could be. Yeah, I'll tell you what a Cleric is. Cleric, a priestly champion. No, Bard for me.

Bard, an inspiring magician who's power echoes the music of creation. Yeah, that sounds nice. That's very nice. I'm inspirational. I hear the word Sorcerer and I think that sounds cool. Let me look at what Sorcerer does. Spellcaster who draws on inherent magic

from a gift or bloodline. Well, afloenaste. There you go. That sounds like you. Privilege. Yeah, Privilege. Appearance for teachers. Sorcerer.

How it? Yeah. Your parents were teachers. How did they do it? How did they make it work? Your parents were teachers. I know. What did you do so right?

They're my, they're my, they're my, half as many kids as yours? Oh, okay, that's smart. Yeah, my, because Mum was, she wasn't working when we were kids, so four kids on a one, public school, not public school,

public school made someone else somewhere else. Yeah, so you know, it's the opposite. it's the opposite. Yeah, that's fascinating. But I'm in England, I think. Yeah, I think so. My dad was also a very good gambler. Oh, yeah. On the side. That's not true at all. He doesn't never gambled. He played the stock market. Yeah. Well, that's a, that's a cool question. Yeah, that's great. A while did it lined up with the...

It's really, really cool. And maybe that maybe is a caveman, a kind of dungeon than Dragon with these things. It's really, really cool. And maybe it's a caveman, a kind of dungeon, the dragon thing, maybe that's where that comes from. I'm not sure. It's not a class. Right. But that's really cool. And obviously that's a question that we've already

got answered for when we do the Patreon bonus episode. Yeah, great. I'm now a sorcerer, which I'm a bad. I'm going to play my mother fucking loot for you. Woo! Thank you, RFS 3 3 caveman caveman. And that brings us to this everyone's other favorite part of the show. We get to thank some of our Patreon supporters. Yes. Support us on patreon.com forward slash do go on pod and maybe that

ties in nicely because generally we'd like to read out some names and we sort of play a bit of a game with it maybe we could give them a class. Oh good idea okay so we've got six remaining classes we can give. I think there was about 12 isn't it? Oh perfect that works that well. Yeah 12 basic classes we've picked three. Okay great. Well Well, I'll kick things off, shall I? Please do. I would like to thank, from London, where we are going. That's right, second show on sale now.

Maybe sold out by now, who knows? Where? It's a couple days ago. I would like to thank Scott Porter. Oh, Scott Porter. I'm gonna say that Scott Porter's not a porter, but a fighter. Oh, okay. A master of martial combat, skilled not a porter, but a fighter. Oh, okay.

A master of martial combat, skilled with a variety of weapons and armor. Yeah. That's a cool one. Give him anything, he can kill you with it. Yeah, that's right. Could he be an orc fighter? Is that the work like that? You can be an Elf fighter or if you're a fighter or something else.

I can't tell you 100%. But to me, it feels like you pick your race which we were talking about before the type of character And then this is an extra thing to pick. Yeah, probably several more options because that you know That's part of the fun of the game is that there's I guess limitless Yeah, combination you could be anything Scott Porter. I really like that name. I like porters a nice dark beer Yeah, and hopefully Scott also enjoys a porter. I like Scott. I like Scott too Scott Porter great name And a great fighter great fighter I also enjoy the porno. I like Scott. I like Scott too, Scott Porter, great name. And a great fighter.

Great fighter. And I'd also like to thank from Chicago. Ooh, we're close to go India. We're close to go India. We're close to go India. Yeah, I'd love to thank Zoe Roberts. Zoe Roberts. Fantastic.

Here Roberts and then think, Pelladin. Yes. They wholly worry about to a sacred oath. Yeah, that's the sort of vibe I'm picking up. I felt that for Shaul. Peladin. For Shaul. I've heard that word before.

Yeah. That's sick, yeah. So he robert's Peladin. Peladin. But also an Orc. Yeah. I mean, they're all Orcs. Yeah.

What other ones can they be? Elves. Elves. Elves, wizards, humans. So you could be a wizard and then a wall lock or a wizard and a sorcerer wizard, wall lock wizard. Fascinating stuff. Fascinating. What a world.

I think so. I watched two YouTube videos on how to play the game. So fascinating world of walker. So to speak. Isn't it? Thanks so much, Zoe. YouTube videos on how to play the game. So fascinating world of walk-off, so to speak. Isn't it? Thanks so much, Zoe. I'd also love to thank from Croziness in Queensland.

This is Crozest. We haven't had that's how all the mailing and things when you're again, were lock back, lock back, Croziness. That's a place. That must be a place. I did not realize. Of course.

So I wonder if Jillian Plant, who I'm thinking right now, do you work for a TV mail room? Yes, so if you wanted to, I'd like the major industry. And for a kid's coloring competition, you send it to Lockedbag, 306, blah, blah, Crozness. I assumed that that was like, I don't know.

Yeah, I don't know. I didn't realize those were real things. I seemed to magical as a kid. Crozness. Maybe it is. Jillian Plant, well magicals the vibe you've got first What do you okay magical? I think I'm gonna go for a druid or druid a priest of the old faith wielding the powers of nature moonlight and plant growth fire and lightning and adopting animal forms. Oh wow

That's got an animal book. Oh, that's cool. Tiger Tiger Jillian plant the tiger the tiger from the crow's nest Tiger from the crow's and she's that's got an animal box. Oh, that's cool. Tiger. Tiger. Jillian plant the tiger. The tiger from the crow's nest. Tiger from the crow's nest. And that's a druid, did you say? Yeah, druid. Druid tiger.

Wow, and also an awl. How cool. Thank you so much, Jillian plant. You got Dam legend from crow's nest in Queensland. That's blown me away. I'd also love to thank from Holy Moly Halifax in Nova Scotia Canada. What's wrong?

Leslie McLeod. Leslie McLeod is such a lovely name. Love that. This has been a sequ- Leslie McLeod. Leslie McLeod and Leslie McLeod is a Arranger. Ranger.

Awaria who uses Marshall, Prouess, and Nature Magic to combat threats on the edges. Civilization. Age of civilization, because remember that was the last port between North America and Europe, that's where they are right on the edge there on the east. Wow. That is cool.

I wonder if she uses any sort of explosive magic. Yeah, like bombs. With the power of bombs. This is a magic bomb. Ranger Leslie. I love that. Alright, I would like to thank from Ipswich in Suffolk. Suffolk!

I would like to thank First Name Mr. Last Name, Darryl B. Finland. Darryl B. Finland. Always B. Finland. ABF. That is funny. Well, I think that he. Darrell B. Finlow. Always B. Finlow. ABF. That is funny. Well, I think that he.

What's Darrell up to? Darrell B. Finlow. What's Darrell? Well, I reckon he's a bit of a rogue. Yeah, big time. I have a t-shirt that says rogue. Is this you? This is Darrell.

A scoundrel who uses stealth and trickery to overcome obstacles and enemies. Yeah, you have me at scoundrel. That is just the scoundrel. So Darrell be Finland. So you and Darrell, gonna learn common. Couple scoundrels, dirty rotten scoundrels, huh? What do we look?

Thank you, Mr. Darrell be Finland. And finally, bringing it home to North Melbourne, here in Victoria, I would like to thank Zachary Bar Zachary bar. Oh, he should be a bard. Oh, he should be a bard But you know what we haven't done one of these. It's a wallaw a We order of magic that is derived from a bargain with an Extra plan to dollar shop. Yeah, yeah with an extra plan to entity. Don't know what that means, but that's you mate That's you that's what he is exactly a big Tom's a Cree bar

A mr. Zachary bar. Hey, if you're a Running through my mind as well Of course you did I mean you're head If you are a dnd player, let us know what your class and race and all that kind of stuff is I'll be quite cool. Yeah, this is amazing. What people are. And if you've ever dressed up in a Cape, send us a photo.

I love seeing people in those big wizard capes. Yeah, I want a cape. You know the boss, the DM. Yeah, do they wear capes? I think they, well, I don't think there's any hard and fast rules, even though Gary Gaga can probably wanted them to. Gary Gaga Gaga. But he, I think often they do, or at least in the ones I've seen on TV, I think they normally

jujured up a bit. Oh, I love a juj. Stranger things like the boy who went up to the down under in the first season, he was the damn in the third season and he was like wearing full wizardy outfit and the others were just not as into it as him. Right, okay. So it's really an up to as him. Right, okay. So it's really an up to you thing. Yeah, I think so.

Yeah, when I was watching it, some people, when they're their character, speaking third person like, oh, my character does this, but other people say, and then he says, and then they put on the voice. Hello, Druid!

Oh, yeah. So it's just up to you how into it you wanna get. I'm so keen to do this. We gotta do the voice. We gotta commit. I think I so keen to do this. We got to do the voice. We got to commit. I think I would. I'm only going to have to do that voice. Oh, what kind of accent?

I don't know. Oh. Oh. My Chinese druid says, oh, Jess, no. No. No. I'm going to get canceled. That's my dream.

About time too. Thanks everyone my dream. At the hour. Time to. Thanks Aaron, that supports the show on Patreon. You make our world a better place. And if you want to get all the stuff like shout outs and the fact quote a question, but also two bonus episodes per month, you get to vote for TopXP in the Patreon group, get pre-sale tickets to all our shows. You can do that at any time.

And like we say, it does really brighten up a little life. Dave, can I give you a quick fun fact before we go? I'd love one. You mentioned Gary Cooper, the actor who Gary Gargocano was named after. I looked him up. His Wikipedia page is epic. It's so long. He's obviously, he had a huge career, but he's also a two-time best actor, Academy Award winner. Really? He won in 1942 for Sergeant York, and he won in 1953 for High Noon, which, and that year, he also won the Golden Globe Award for the same.

He also won in 1959 and 1961 at the Laurel Awards, he won top action performance for the hanging tree and they came to Kajura. So I think he became a big cowboy actor. And then in 1961 he won an Academy Honorary Award too. So he kind of like a three time. Oh right. And that was the year he died at the age of 60. Wow, not very old at all.

So he, yeah, he was like, he's obviously quite a legend and makes sense that people are named after him. And yeah, he's been inducted into the Gary Hall of Fame. Absolutely. One of the first members you'd think at the time. I've got to start that up. Could you make a page on our website, Dave, since the Gary Hall of Fame?

Just a photo of each of the Gary's. That would be fun. That would be fun. When you've got spare time. Yeah, that's right. I'll find some time for that. Well, congratulations to Gary Cooper, one of the first members of the Gary Hall of Fame. Yeah, and Gary Gagagana as well. Gary, what's his actual name? We said it's Gagax.

Gagax, Gary GGax, so good. So amazing. That's great name. So good. But that sadly does bring us to the end of this week's episode. Thank you so much for joining us for the first block, Buster Tofu Grace episode for the month. Four more to come. We're lucky to have five Wednesdays in this month.

Yeah, what a treat. What a real treat. Couple of surprises up our sleeve, a guest or two, possibly. Oh, that's very exciting. It is a bit fun. I'd also like to say that my parents made a lot of great financial decisions.

I'd demean, say that Dave's teacher parents are better than my teacher parents earlier. My dad was just a better problem gambling, you also. That's really weighed on my conscience. I mean, they're on a holiday right now. They're doing fine. They bought a caravane. They're doing fine They bought a caravan I think they're going

I'm gonna find a product Mine just went to Adelaide Apparently they've all got things happening, okay But yeah, seriously thanks to everyone that listen to this week's episode, we'll be back with a blockbuster tofagrace next week. But until then, also thank you and goodbye! Hey! And food's just about to be delivered and we're really happy chapies!

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