Do Go On - 206 - Dungeons and Dragons

Episode Date: October 2, 2019

Our first episode for Block 2019 (a month of our most requested episodes) is all about the world's most popular table role playing game... Dungeons and Dragons. When first developed in their basements in the 1970s, creators Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson could not have predicted that by the end of the decade they'd have a TV show, legions of fans and be living in mansions, all whilst creating a moral "satanic panic" across America.Tickets are selling fast for our upcoming live shows in IRELAND AND THE UK in December. We're heading to Dublin, Glasgow,Leeds, Bristol, London and Birmingham. Grab tickets here: https://dogoonpod.com/events/Our second LONDON show is on sale now!Support the show and get rewards like bonus episodes: patreon.com/DoGoOnPodSubmit a topic idea directly to the hat: dogoonpod.com/Submit-a-TopicTwitter: @DoGoOnPodInstagram: @DoGoOnPodFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/DoGoOnPod/Email us: [e-mail] out our other podcasts:Book Cheat: https://play.acast.com/s/book-cheatPrime Mates: https://play.acast.com/s/prime-mates/Buy tickets to see Matt and Jess live:https://mattstewartcomedy.com/gigshttps://www.jessperkins.com.au/showsOur awesome theme song by Evan Munro-Smith and logo by Peader ThomasREFERENCES AND FURTHER READINGVOX’S VIDEO - DUNGEON AND DRAGONS EXPLAINEDhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PEt5RdNHNwGARY GYGAX ON 60 MINUTES:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yShqF1YSfDsWIRED ARTICLE WITH LOADS OF GYGAX AND ARNESON QUOTES:https://www.wired.com/2008/03/dungeon-master-life-legacy-gary-gygax/EMPIRE OF IMAGINATIONhttps://books.google.com.au/books?id=NoccCgAAQBAJ&pg=PP28&lpg=PP28&dq=Kenmore+Pirates%22+gygax&source=bl&ots=eXSWkQSWAK&sig=ACfU3U0ZXZS3qmadS3e_E2wG_3MqWoZGPA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwipxJHe_vLkAhUHbisKHUPRDmEQ6AEwFXoECAwQAQ#v=onepage&q=Kenmore%20Pirates%22%20gygax&f=falsehttps://geekandsundry.com/the-story-of-dd-part-one-the-birth-death-and-resurrection-of-dungeons-dragons/https://dnd.wizards.com/dungeons-and-dragons/what-dd/history/history-forty-years-adventurehttps://www.britannica.com/biography/Dave-Arnesonhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dungeons_%26_Dragons#Licensinghttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Gygaxhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dave_Arneson Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Melbourne and Canada, we got exciting news for you. And we should also say this is 2026. Jess, what year is it? 2026. Thank God you're here. Right now, I'm in Melbourne doing my show with Serenji Amarna, 630 each night at the Cooper's Inn Hotel, having so much fun. We'd love to see you there.

Canada, we are visiting you in September this year. If you've somehow missed the news, we are heading up Vancouver, Calgary, Montreal, and Toronto for shows. That's going to be so much fun. Tickets for all this stuff, I believe, are online. And I'm here too. This podcast is part of the Planet Broadcasting Network. Visit planetbroadcasting.com for more podcasts from our great mates.

This week's episode of Do Go On is brought to you by our UK and Ireland Krishmish tour happening this December. Our London show sold out in just a couple of hours. We've added in a new show that is on sale now. And that is before the other show. It was a matinee, 4.30pm, Sunday, December the 8th. Oh, I can't wait for a matinee. Mm, fancy.

Matt and A. I like the same of that. It's got my name in it. Now I hate it. The Bristol show is... Not that, nay. Which is the name of my horse. The Bristol show is sold out and the other shows are selling very, very fast.

If you're not aware, we're coming to Glasgow, Leeds, Dublin, London and Bristol. We will not be adding any extra city. It's a shame. A few people have been messaging asking us, but unfortunately just time and whatnot. And some of your villages don't have enough people to fill a show. So we aren't able to get to any other cities. Someone messaged in from a place and I looked it up and the population was seven. And I just don't think we can...

Yeah. You know, we're coming a long way from Australia. I don't know if you've looked at a globe, but we're quite far away. The question is, do all seven people in the village listen? Yeah. And do they have friends from out of town? Yeah, who are willing to visit. Anyway, all those details are on dogoonpod.com.

And welcome to another episode of DoGoOn. My name is Dave Ornke, and I'm sitting here with Matt Stewart and Jess Perkins. I'm standing. That's true. I'm kneeling. And I'm lying about sitting because I'm also standing. Yay! God, it's confusing.

Yeah. Especially looking at your sit over there. Yeah, no, I'm just quite short. Sorry, I no-anded you there, didn't I? Yeah, you know-anded. I flunked out of him from school. No-butted him. No-but- Dave.

Huh? That's actually one of your nicknames from childhood. No-but-day. That's right. It's such tiny tush. So tiny, it's not existent. I just want to give people an accurate, because I imagine people are, you know, when they're listening,

they like to imagine what we're doing. Yeah, if you're listening while driving your car, we're also driving our car right now. Yeah, I'm wearing a ball gown. Yeah. What's Matt? I'm wearing a bald cap. The car's electric.

You just said bald gown? I thought you were, for some reason I thought you were going to say bald cap. No feathers. You plucked all the feathers off your gown. Yeah. Hey, we, I mean, you can probably tell listening at home that we're pretty excited. There's a festive mood in here. We're quivering with excitement.

Because today is the official beginning of Blocktofer Grace Festival. And a Merry Block to you. Mary Block to you. And Dave, a Merry Block to you. A Merry Block. Well, I think, sorry, I gave the full name. It's actually, the short name is Block or Blocktoberfest. or blocktofa grace period festivali that's the mid-range one the longer one goes for you know three to four weeks

and if this is the first time I'm listening to the show yes we do speak English here well we do a version of it English in the English Blockbuster is where the original title came from last year when October we did the some of our biggest and most requested topics yes blockbuster tobo grace period festival. Yes. And this is the second annual version and we're doing that again. It is week one of block.

Yes. So this year we used a new system. I put on our Patreon at patreon.com slash dogo on pod. I put it out to our patrons and they gave us a heap of great suggestions and then they upvoted it until I got, I think I had 20 odd suggestion from them. And then I went into Jack the Hat, McVitty, which is where people, listeners can suggest topics. Anyone can do that.

And there's a link in the show notes. and I took any suggestion that had, I can't remember the minimum, it was like 10 or something, like quite a few times had been suggested and they went into the vote as well. And then there was a public vote. It took me half a day. Anyway. And then I wrote the 50 options out and I was about 45 in and I accidentally clicked the cross on the tab. And I had to begin again.

No. My fat fingers. This sounds more complicated than the American general election. Yeah, it is similar to that. And much like me, I thought I'd voted for the guy who had that movie about the climate change. Al Gore. But it ended up going to the other guy, the Bushman. The guy who had the movie about climate change.

Superman? Yes, that's him. Anyway, I love a nice quick introduction. I've nailed that here today. Basically, in summary, we're doing some of our... most requested, most voted for topics, and it is my turn this week to report on a topic, and you two don't know what I'm going to talk about. I don't know anything.

So I gave you keys. I gave you the keys to the results. And you've, so you've gone with, does this mean you've gone with the fourth or fifth? Yes. We're doing five topics this month. But maybe a guest or two coming in as well. Shish. Shoo.

Superman? Shish. Secret. In a way. Shes. Secret. All right, so we always start. This is the fifth most requested topic for block.

Sorry, Dave. I just need to make sure. Do you think it's clear what's going on here? I don't. Well, okay. Most popular. Yeah, let me try. Okay.

We're going to do our most requested and most popular topic suggestions. Oh, that is good. But you didn't at all explain the convoluted system. No, I didn't need to actually. Because if you're listening, you've either voted or you had no idea and it was something new. But obviously where you're from... It's a waiting system. Yeah, so if you're from the Caribbean,

your vote is worth three, from North America is worth two. Australia, you only get one-to-one vote parity. That's right. It's all based on exchange rates. And yeah, so it does take a little bit of time. Yeah. Obviously, depending on where the ducks are flying,

if they're flying north or south for the winter, depending on where you're from as well. And depending on what Punks of Tony's Phil says. Does he cast a shadow? Let's find out. How many more weeks of spring? Our fifth most requested topic. I hear it is my question.

We always start with the question to get us on the topic. And my question is to you, what was the first commercially produced fantasy role playing game? I've got a real advantage here because I've made the list of topics. So I think I know this one. You're able to remember all 49 topics. Well, they were a fantasy role playing game. I remember all the role playing games that were in there.

48 to 49 of our most requested topics. But I also know that someone is tallying the results. So I'll give just one go. Dungeons and Dragons. You got it. Yay! It is Dungeons and Dragons. This is a very requested topic.

So shout out and thank you to all these people and there is quite a lot. So I'll try and get through that. Harry from Northampton. Jonathan Busek, who told me how to pronounce his name. He said, but Matt can mess it up if you want. I'd love to. Jonathan Butt kiss. He's from Haven Mill, Massachusetts.

Jeremy Flaherty from. Noblesville, Indiana. Johnny Dawson from Lester, England. Christopher M. McCallough from, I cannot believe this is a real place. Snow Homeish, Washington. Cool. Benjamin Ward, Southampton, Taylor Payne from Las Vegas. Johnny Dawson from Lester again.

Yep, I put your name in twice. Colton Adrian from Chatterroy, Washington. Zach Bay from Newton, Iowa. Adam Benson from Essex. Chris from Sidmouth Devon, Jacob Miller from Bloomington, Indiana. And finally, McKenna from Potsdam, New York. USA.

So obviously, we're not joking. We say most requested topics here, most popular. So that's exciting. Yeah. Highly requested. And Dungeons and Dragon is today's topic. Before we jump in, do you guys know much about this fantasy role-playing game? I know, very little.

I know. I mean, I've seen all three seasons of Stranger Things. And they played in that. I know there's a demigorgon at one point. I know that. And I'm also in a couple of Facebook groups like the Planet broadcasting one and the Sandspans ones and comes up a bit in there. There's something about a dice that has a lot of sides and also some people like to collect

piss-coloured dice. Is that a piss thing? Because that hasn't come up for me. I'd love to know a bit more about the piss. I might be wrong. Maybe that was one person who posted one thing one time. Okay. I don't know heaps.

Tripod did one show that was like a Dungeons and Dragons theme. Did you show? So they're a live comedy trio. Yes. I love musical commentary, I should say. And did you still go along because you're a big fan? Yeah. Didn't have the references?

It was a, I mean, it was a... Confusing hour? No. A vague theme. It was influenced by... It was still a very good show. A great show. As all of their shows are.

But basically, I don't know that much at all. Well, because I knew absolutely nothing. Whoa. So hopefully my ignorance is coming from in place. So I imagine a lot of people at home, it's very popular. Obviously, with a certain subset. Yep. But if you are at home and you're like,

I don't know anything about dozens of dragons, hopefully it's still interesting to you because I didn't either. And I'm definitely coming, I'm just flagging that I'm coming out as a complete novice. So if it's like your world, I don't want to speak out of turn. I actually think if you are like,

if you love Dungeons and Dragons so much, probably stop listening. Honestly, because when we did the River Dance episode, something I care about deeply, it crushed me. And we're definitely going to say things wrong about it, just out of our own ignorance. And we're probably going to make jokes at some point because that's our fucking jobs. So at some point, this is going to hurt you.

Jess, I can't help if you're on the front foot here. David, I just want to double check. Did you thank Jacob Miller for suggesting? Because he's the one who he also suggested it on the Patreon. Yes, from Bloomington, Indiana. Oh, well done. Sorry about that. No, that's fine.

I'm glad I just spent five minutes finding that. No, I'm glad you looked that up because he also suggested it into the Jackal Hat. That's the only way of it. So, thank you for double-jacking. So Dungeons and Dragons. For those like me who, until yesterday, had no idea about it, is a tabletop fantasy role-playing game, and is described on the official D&D website. That means Dungeons and Dragons, like this.

Quote, the core of D&D is storytelling. You and your friends tell a story together, guiding your heroes through quest for treasure, battles with deadly foes, daring rescues, courtly intrigue and much more. I mean, it sounds really fun. Yeah, I'm courtly intrigued right now. But how did it come about? The first game was created by Gary Gygax.

That is that all-time great name. Gary Gygax. Gary Gygax. Gary Gygax. Gary Gygax. Gary Gygax. I've got written here, we have a new member for the Gary Hall of Fame. Holy shit, Gary Gygax.

Gary Gygax. I've got to make a Gary Hall of Fame. That's so obvious. Of course. And his friend, Dave Arneson. You remember for the Dave Hall of Fame. Please. Pretty good.

Dave Arneson. He sounds like he's probably a fine guy. He's no Gary Gygax. Gargax. Gary Gagax, Dave Arneson. And when they developed the first game in their respective basements, I doubt they had any idea that within 10 years, they would have their own TV show,

would be living it up in mansions, have 600 employees, all whilst the game they made, created a moral panic across the United States. of America. I'm confused. How do they, is this, I didn't ever think it was a game you could buy. So where are they making their money?

What do you think it was a game you could buy? I just thought, isn't it like people just telling stories and wearing capes? Yes, but you can buy like starter sets and scenarios and things like that. And the 20-sided dice that you were alluding to. Right. Let me talk about that. Piss-coloured. But that is my little sizzle for Dungeons and Dragons.

Let's get into it. Well, colour me sizzled. What colour is that? Pissed. Piss. You cook everything. Doesn't your piss tizzle a bit? No.

Well, you've got to get hot a piss. My piss is real hot. Red hot piss. I think you need to see a doctor. Oh, okay, sure. You shouldn't have red hot. Well, maybe I'll have to make a phone call and a quone fall. I've got yellow hot piss.

Oh, okay. Maybe I am the weird one. It's your piss really hot. So hot. You can't touch it. Doesn't it steam off when you're piss against a tree or something? I don't get to piss against a tree. Oh, you got to live a little.

wrong with you. I'm always pissing against a tree. That explains why the time I had you guys over for dinner and you said, excuse me, I just need to piss, which also was firstly a bit of a rude way to excuse yourself from the dinner table. But then you bypassed the bathroom, went straight out into the garden,

and pissed. And where I grew up, Australia, it's polite to piss on the lemon tree. Yeah, and you know what, at the time, I didn't even think anything of it.

But it's, I think piss is hot compared, Maybe. I do recall steam coming off my piss. Please stop. I love he's trying to justify it now. Stop talking about piss. Just in all seriousness. My piss has steam.

Yeah, if you're pissing. That's steam and hot piss. Into something very cold. Yeah, that's probably what I'm doing. Sure. Are you putting ice cubes in the toilet before you piss on them? What do you do with them? Where else do ice cubes go?

No, you're right again. And your panicalata. Good luck. A silly question on my part. Compton? Nice, cute. Yes, I got it, just wasn't particularly good. Continue.

Gary Gygax. Let's start at the beginning. Gary Gygax. Full name, Ernest Gary Gygax. Yeah, I mean, you would ditch. Known as Gary Gygax. Ernie Gygax. It's also great.

Born in Chicago in 1938, he was the son of Elmina, Emily Posey, nickname, and Swiss immigrant and former Chicago Symphony Orchestra violinist turned suit salesman, Ernst Gygax. Oh, Ernst's a great name. Also, Chicago is only a couple hours away from Gary, Indiana. Well, reportedly his middle name came from actor Gary Cooper, also front run for the Gary Hall of Fame. Wow. Who's Gary Cooper been? Just a famous Hollywood.

Yes, but who has he been? Golden Age of Hollywood actor. What characters has he played? Who has he been? Gary Cooper, it's a fantastic name. Cooper's a sweet surname. I feel like we're getting bogged down in some weird details. Yeah, you're both Googling Gary Cooper. Just move on with the report, Dave.

The following comes from Michael Whitmer's book, Empire of Imagination, which is all about Gary Gygax, which I think Matt should read now. This is about Gary's childhood, let me tell you about it, quote in the words of Michael Whitner. His gang, if it could be called that, numbered about a dozen neighborhood boys. Most of them came from good, hardworking immigrant families. They call themselves the Kenmore Pirates. Okay. Because most of them lived on Chicago's Kenmore Street and pirates sounded more dangerous than kids.

That is true, actually. Their rivals, however, had come from the wealthier north side of Chicago and outnumbered them two to one. That's double. Uh-oh. Long story short, the two gangs got into a fight and seeing their son with a black eye, this is Gary. The family moved to Lake Geneva, Wisconsin to be with Gary's grandparents. So they moved away from Gary Gaga's grandparents. Yeah.

So the kid gets in. one little fight his mom gets scared That's it We're going to That's it We're moving to Lake Geneva

Wisconsin Yeah This is the Fresh Prince of Lake Wisconsin Pretty much It seems like a bit of an overreaction

You know And there Gary hated school And dropped out In his junior year And drifted for a time I should just stayed in the gang

It sounds like an overreaction But the recipe For a real Fun time He worked Odd jobs and eventually went to junior college at night.

Night school. He was doing night school. But whilst working for an insurance company, he discovered his love of what is known as war games. That's right. He was in a gang and they've moved him and now he was into war games. He's taking it up or not? War games were tabletop games,

often recreating, so played on a tabletop, board game style, often recreating famous battles where figures and figurines represented soldiers and cavalry and that a dice was rolled to determine the outcome of the battle. Okay, so you're recreating it, but it's a choose your own adventure sort of way. Yeah, basically. Or dice chooses your own adventure. Who will win World War II?

Did you roll a dice? You're like, oh my God. He'll just won. I've made a huge mistake. It was a real roll of the dice, I'm going to tell you. One player would be the referee and settled disputes between the two having the actual battle. And you'll see why this is pretty influential on Gary's later life. It does sound like this is, as I understand, what Dungeons and Dragons is.

But there's no dungeons nor dragons. Oh, so that's the genius part. It's just cavalry and soldiers. Right. In 1950, age of 20, Gary married Mary Joe Powell, and they had two children. Gary married Mary Joe Powell. Powell. Powell.

And you married. All the while, Gary was still obsessively playing these epic and detailed war games, some of which could go for two months at a time. Okay. Apparently it got to the point that he was spending so much time playing the war games that his wife Mary thought he was having an affair and when pregnant with her second child she confronted him only to discover something much worse

That would be the broken point for me Gary and some friends were sitting around a map covered table Oh Gary Gary no no Why could have been somewhere else? I thought it was Susan please let it be Susan Busted. Oh, busted is fun.

That, yeah. How does he look in? How was his face? Oh, no. I didn't want he to see me like this. Don't look at me. Don't look at me. Those are the Simpsons where...

Marge says it. Yeah, what does she... March says her dad's a flight attendant. Right. Not a pilot like she thought. Don't look at me. Don't look at me. He's topping up people's drinks.

Daddy? I want to see Daddy fly the plane. Margie, no, no. Fuck, it's a good bit. Apparently, they'd also play war games over the mail with gamers across the country, which I imagine would take forever. You take one move, you roll the dice.

They're trusting you to not be lying, and then you'd mail it to someone, you know, in California. Why didn't they just do it online? Hello? Get a webcam, basic setup. Every laptop has one. Oh my God. I actually don't know.

Just like download the app. Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then you just get a notification when they've played theirs. Why don't you just play with someone you know nearby? Yeah. Play with a friend.

Oh, oh no. Oh, Gary, no. Please have an affair. Gary was obsessed with chance in the games and found that rolling two six-sided dice resulted in six and six-sevines being more frequent than twos and twos. As there's only one direct combination for twos and 12s. Right. You've got to get two-ones or two-six-s or two-six.

But with a six, you got a four and a two. You've got two, three. So there's more, more chances of it coming up if you keep playing, keep playing, keep playing. He got his players to draw a poker chip numbered from 1 to 20 from a bag, giving every number the same 5% chance of coming up. But then he discovered in a school supply catalogue that a 20-sided or icosahedron die already existed. Ooh. So he didn't invent it.

No. It would be a nightmare, wouldn't it? But he brought it into the world of... It's too many. It's so many. But it's much more... You know, you only have to roll one die. But how do you know which number is it?

Yeah. It's very pointy. So it's... The number, I think it's the number that's on the top. Ah. Not the number. On the left-hand side, that would be much more confusing. Yeah, because that would be different.

Who's left? Exactly. And it's like, look, the three of us are sitting in a circle. It'd be different for each of us. That's where the fun begins. Using his connections in the budding scene, Gary hired a hall and put on the Lake Geneva Convention or Gencon. Geneva Convention.

Is that what it was? I'd heard that phrase. I never knew what it was, but a pretty significant historical event. Broring to that year. Inviting war gamers to come over and battle against each other. It cost him $50 to hire the hall. An entry was just $1 per person, but he made just enough to cover the costs, and he was stoked.

Oh, I just wanted to share his fun. And it was great for him because he was introduced to new people and new variations on games and Gary was inspired to expand his friend Jeff Perrin's rule book for a new game which Gary expanded into an entirely new game called Chain Mail. Chain mail. The real innovation that he implemented in his new game was that rather than just having blocks of characters like 20 nameless soldiers that you're rolling the die for, In his new game, you could control a single character

and give that character a personality. Oh, I like that. See? Feels more like the Sims. This is where the fantasy comes in because a lot of the people playing didn't have personalities. So they could make up personalities for... Exactly.

Yeah, in the Sims, you can be a stand-up comedian. And my Sims are always way more successful than I am. I'd really love to make up a personality for me. Can you make one for me? Yeah, big time. I'm just going to make you really. good at listening and never interrupting. Okay.

This is fantasy. It's unbelievable. I want to play, I really want to play a D&D game. I've got to ask someone I know who does a D&D podcast. I reckon we can do a Patreon by this episode. Oh, that's a cool idea. It would be really fun? We should get a guru in.

They can be the... Would that not be really frustrating for them? Maybe, oh, I don't know. Three nubes? I don't know. I think for all from my research people seem pretty happy to invite. Yeah. I'm pretty sure Michael Hings won.

He started without knowing what it was, I think. Adam Carnivalet from Sanspance one, he seems like a patient guy. Maybe he'd be up for it. Okay, cool. Anyway, I could probably ask him off pod. Yeah. Seeing as he doesn't listen to this.

Adam? But Adam, if you are listening, get in touch. And also, he also had fun with Chainmail by making a secondary group of rules that you could add in that included magical elements like dragons, elves and wizards. That's fun. So chain mail was very much like all the other games,

which was war-based, but you could control one character. Yeah. But then you could play that normally, but then he had a little extra group of sort of out the back of the shop rules where you could add in the magical stuff. Most of his friends he had in the war game scene

didn't get the magical elements and shunned Gary and the game. They did not like it. That's pioneers. That always happens to pioneers, you know? You're breaking new boundaries. People are going to poo you. Poooo, they'll say.

He was poo-poo. But a friend offered to publish it, and Gary agreed. That's a good friend. Poo! It was not Pippooed, it was published in 1973 and became the small gaming company's biggest hit yet, selling 100 copies a month at $3 a piece. Gary, at this time, was working as a shoe repairer in his basement,

so he wasn't wealthy from the product, but it suddenly became clear that he might be able to make a living out of the games. That's cool. Suddenly seemed possible. You know, mate, do what you love. Never work a day, you know? That's what he said with the shoes and it got old really fast. Yeah.

I love shoes. I wear shoes every day. Yeah. What more do you need? So Gary started to dream, but it wouldn't fully click into place until the following years, Gen Con, Geneva Convention. Enter Dave Arneson. Gary and Dave, two great names, we can all agree.

So they didn't know each other until this point? No, they don't know each other yet. Oh, that was for you were just sizzling. Yeah, that was a bit of sizzling. And I'm going to flashback now to when Dave was born in Minnesota in 1947. So he's a bit older. Minnesota. Nine years younger than Gary, yeah.

What's the Minnesota accent? I get how time works. Where is it? Tell me a bit about Minnesota quickly. Do you know? Midwest. Midwest, right. Minnesota.

They've got a cool accent, I think. And I'm pretty sure, or the basketball teams are the timber wolves, which makes it sound like maybe they're foresty. Is it timber? So they border Canada, and part of the border is the superior national forest. Whoa. So I reckon they're pretty superior. That's great.

I'm also, I'm pretty sure that Brandon and Brenda from 902 came from Minnesota. And Marshall from how I met your mother. Right. I'm pretty sure early episodes of 90210, they'd be like, hey, Minnesota. That was like they're put down. Nickname for the new kid in town They're like, yeah, I do come from there Yeah

Can I help you? Similar to how you're tugging me too In America, I love that In America, I love nickname Because they're so big And everyone's moving around a lot Everyone's nickname Is just a place they're from

Here I'd just be like Hey Melbourne Yeah, Melbourne, what's up Melbourne? Well, Yep Oh, what was that? Where were you going to go to? Well, no, my boyfriend is from Sydney

Oh, that's why I call him Sid. That's why people at his footy team call him Locky because of lockout laws in Sydney. Which have been repealed. So it's not even a relevant nickname anymore. They're so creative at footy clubs, aren't they? Oh, lockout. Classic.

That's pretty funny. Smack on the bum. They love that little bum tap, don't they? A little bum tap. Bum bum. That's what they say. Nice of physical contact. They go bum bum.

That's also the sound of getting something wrong on game shows. Bum! You'll hear this sound. So Dave Anderson was born in 1957, Minnesota. 47. 947. How good you? Did I say 57?

You just said 57 then. It's 47. 47 is definitely the final answer. I'm not sure when I said what, but 47, let's go with that. 47, okay. Being nine years younger than Gary. Pop-b-bom. I was incorrect at some stage, surely.

Growing up, Dave 2 loved war games, and after receiving such a game as a present one day, he taught all of his friends to play. At 21, he found himself working as a security card, but spent, and card, but spent... He's so like the one that taps on a door. He's got around on a keychain on some security guard's belt, and then, boop.

It wasn't the job he dreamt of having it as a child, but it was paying the bill. But he spent most of his time playing war games or at the library researching how to make the battles they were reenacting more accurate. Oh, wow. So he was really into it. Take out the dice?

I don't know. I don't know. A lot of dice in the western front, I don't think, but it'll be wrong. Dave Arneson went to the next year's Gen Con, and in Lake Geneva, he met Gary Gygax and was a little bit starstruck, who was a bit of a big deal in the local war game scene. Oh, boy. I love that idea. That's so good. They struck up a conversation about a game Gary was developing about the Naval War of 1812, and Dave was able to impress the older Gary. by casually naming prices of muskets and rations and frigates during that era. Oh, wow. Because he knew all the ins and outs of everything to do with war.

I love the idea of being impressed. Oh, geez. Oh, my. Yeah, musket three of three shillings. Oh, my goodness, I must speak to you more. Yeah, let's chat. Here's my car. This is my security card.

It's my friend, Darren. The two work together on a game called Don't Give Up the Ship. Good stuff. Catchy. And even though he was impressed with Gary at first, he saw the older and more influential Gary Gygax is a bit square when it came to certain elements of the game, obsessed with tiny things,

and he seemed to make a rule for every single possible scenario. According to a great article from Wired that I'll link below, which I've got a few quotes here from, Arneson they interviewed him, later record, quote, Gary added this really lame section about single ship actions to our game, which nobody ever uses. He described Gary as, quote, not much of a risk taker,

didn't cut school, probably didn't get into fisticuffs, our personalities weren't at all alike. And quite, even though I started this story with Gary moving because he got into fisticuffs. Oh, yeah.

So that was wrong, Dave. Despite this difference in opinion on how specific rules should be, they managed to collaborate well together purely through their loved and, sorry, through their shared love of games. So they made this game, but they went there separate ways afterwards, but Arneson took a copy of Gygax's chain mail with him before, the game I mentioned before. It's the one that had the little extra set of rules that you can make magical if you wanted to.

Arneson, unlike Gary's friends, loved the fantastical elements and saw potential for a whole new game which he developed by expanding on those magical rules. He later called the game Blackmore, inspired by various things including Lord of the Rings. something I believe was denied for a long time but then decades later he admitted okay I was influenced by Lord of the Rings I was about to be like those movies didn't come out for ages so that I remembered it was a book

I was like wow How did you get a copy of the script How did you? Orlando Bloom wasn't born yet Ah that's how yeah You base most things off that anyway Yeah was this pre or post Orlando Bloom OB?

Pre-OB? Pre-O-B just post-B No, quite pre-O-B Pre-bloom. Pre-bloom. Pre-bloom. What Dave loved about the idea of chain mail was it was free form and relied on improvisation. Oh, yeah.

Okay, all right, give me a scene. Okay. Forest. Forest. Okay. Give me an occupation. Wizard. Okay.

Hello there. I'm here in the forest on magic business. What be you? That is some good improv. What? I mean, that's blocking. That's blocking. You don't say it's improv in the scene, Jess.

You're meant to respond. You wait until someone says and scene. Yeah. Great. Well, my blocking. You haven't done any classes. My blocking was more just to get back on to track. Oh, you're not familiar with this show, are you?

There's no such thing. But also, if you are going to block in any month, this is the month to block it. You're right. That's why I'm blocking. Yeah. I love to block. Always be blocking. A.B.

A.B. A baby B. Always be blocking A baby B. Oh no. Why did you hate that so much? That's one of the best things that's happened ever on this show. ABB. ABB.

A B. A B. So I just got it. It sounds a bit like, hey baby. Yeah, that's right. Here we go. You know, you've dissected the frog there, Dave. Can I just get us back to the magical world?

Please do go on. A black moor. The game we developed from Chainmouth. Forest. Wizard. All right. New one. This is a new one.

I'm a wizard. What are you doing there? Hello, I'm here. One pouch of potion, please. But you don't have enough money for that pouch. Let me roll this dice. Now you're getting... Oh, you've played the game before.

So the premise he was developing was simple yet revolutionary. Players would portray only a single character rather than an army and would explore underground dungeons where they'd improvised their way through puzzles and challenges. So Dave played various games with his friends in the basement, improving the game and adding in different rules as time went by. One thing he found was that the players were having so much fun with the characters that they'd created,

that they were sad when the game and their characters ended. They didn't want to start from scratch the next time they'd played around, so he decided that their characters in the story would carry over from session to session, where the characters working cooperatively and improving their skill sets over time. So rather than creating that amazing background to the character, a wizard in a forest,

and having to give that up and having to start again, the next game, you're a similar wizard in a similar forest. Well, similar, not the same. Well, the same. The same, but are you ever really the same? Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Like, you were always growing.

Yeah, same but different, changing, learning, becoming. And I also remember, but I also saw a couple episodes of community where they played D&D. So I do have a fair picture in my head. I reckon I've seen it. It's probably on freaks and geeks as well, was it? They did play it on freaks and geeks.

Yeah. I think I know a bit about it, even though I'm still confused about the minutiae. It's one of those things that you just sort of pick up bits and pieces of knowledge. Yeah, that's just everywhere. I mean, you know, if you watch one episode of Big Bang Theory, you get it. You get it. They play it on that.

Yeah. Well, let me just say, for those who are very confused, I've got a little section of this show where I, as a noob, try and explain a game I've never played. Great. So I look forward to that. This sounds fun and infuriating for people who do know about it. Yeah, there's many apologies written into the text. Dave Arneson also took the role of the referee of the game further and became the game master,

setting the scene and guiding players along their quest. So that's revolutionary at this point. That feels like the kind of role I would like. That's the big role. That's like the key role. It's a bit of admin, you know. You're the storyteller. Well, there's lots of creativity in that role.

Okay, maybe not. And a little bit of admin. Yeah, I love admin. Can we get a spreadsheet going for this? Oh, for sure, absolutely. Please. After six months of the development, Arneson and a couple of friends went over to Lake Geneva in late 1971

to show Gary Gygax what they'd created. Because remember, they'd taken his game chain mail, and they created a whole new game out of it. So they want to show the creator what they've done. Yeah. They played a game of Blackmore with him using the setting of a six-level dungeon. And Guy Gax and his. crew absolutely loved it.

Oh, that's great. I was so worried you were going to say he hated it. And he kicked him out. That's so good. So they developed Gary's game. Now, he requested a copy of the rules and he expanded them from 18 to 50 pages because remember he loves rules. So he's now expanding on his idea that's been expanded, which is really, really cool. Arnison didn't think that it was possible to have a rule for everything when you're asking

people to use their imaginations. And Arneson later said, quote, he was always big on. having different weapons having different effects. Years later, he literally had a small book on different kinds of pole arms, which I regard as the ultimate in silliness. It's just a pointy thing on the end of a stick. Far out.

But Gary loved to have rules. The two collaborated over the phone on the rules, racking up a massive large phone bill, because this is the 70s. Why weren't they Skyping? Oh my God, text. Skype's free, guys. It's free.

Hello. Facebook Messenger. Yeah. But after a few months, Gygax was finally ready to properly test the game, which he did at home with his friend Don Kay, two of his children, 11-year-old Ernie and 9-year-old Elise. Oh, I passed Ernie down, even though he didn't use it himself. Yeah, third generation. Ernie Gygax.

And another kid from up the street who was not been named. Imagine that. You're part of basically the first ever game of this, and you're not remembered. Ernie chose to be a warrior. Elise chose to be an elf, and Gygax was stoked as he watched on as the group had a fantastic time. Be a little elf. It'd be cute. So the game's good?

From Malmac. Should I go on? Yes. The game's gone, great. The family are loving it. He's like, this game's appealing to all ages. Now all he needed was a name. Something catchy.

A name that's witty at first, but seems less funny each time you hear it. Okay. The B-sharp's. Sorry, I had to include a sentence of the reference. No, the story goes that Gygax paired a bunch of mythical and sword-based words together, until he came to Dungeons and Dragons.

and his daughter Cindy, who was only four years old at the time, said, Daddy, I like Dungeons and Dragons the best. And that's what he went with. Great. Good job, Cindy. So he's got a game, he's got a name. Gary started... And he's got no shame.

He's not wearing pants. Well, he started shopping the idea around to gaming companies telling Avalon Hill, the biggest company in the war gaming biz at the time. Not that I need to tell you that. He said, I reckon this game could sell 50,000. copies. They were not interested. And neither was any other publisher.

So this is a classic story, Harry Potter style, of shopping the idea around and people saying, that's not going to work. Because people would be coming in their shops every day going, hey, we've got a new game. I didn't realize how big it was.

It's a big thing. Even today, people making up new board games. Yeah, yeah, people love it. The main problem was when he was pitching was that people couldn't understand a game

with no winners and losers that in theory could just go on. And on and on, because you just go on these quests together. Yeah. It's not like Monopoly when, you know, there's a winner at the end and everyone else is said. Who's ever finished a game of Monopoly, though? I never have. I've never finished Monopoly.

It's too boring, too early. Yeah. And it's somebody... Seems fun. You get to pick a car or something. Yeah. That's fun. Go around a bit.

Yeah. Go to jail. Oh, one second prize in a beauty contest. We're having fun. Yeah. By the third loop, I'm over it. Yeah, I'm bored. I like Monopoly.

Of course you do. Yeah, you're a big dirty capo, that's why. You're a nerdy capo. Have you ever finished a game though? Absolutely. I have won many. Who are you playing with? Our family?

Friends. You don't have either of those. People in the mail? You're very much alone, Dave. I really, it's just a fun game. You just have to be prepared to lose, which is fine. Yeah, but it's just a long painful loss, isn't it? It's too long.

It's a point of that game that was built to show people how fuck Capua is. capitalism is. And people are, oh my God, capitalism is really fun. Yeah. What's the point of the game? How do you win? You bankrupt everyone else and you become the only person with the capital. That's fucked. Yeah. That's life, man. I'm doing that right now. Who are you bankrupting?

No, sorry, I'm being bankrupt. I'm being done that too right now. I'm very much winning the game at this point. Yeah, Dave. Yeah, it's no Yatzy, let's be honest. It's no Cludo, is it? Cludeau, great game. I'm great at Cludeau.

I love Cludeau. of Boulder Dash. I love cranium. Scategories. Scatigaries, love D&D. Scrabble? Now, Scrabble I like. D&D. I've thrown in there.

It's a new fave. Bogle? Boggles. It boggles the mind. The mind, it boggles. I do like board games. I never play them. We should play board games. I'd love to. Let's have a board game night.

All right, let's do one of our one night's off in the UK and Ireland. Let's play a board game. Monopoly. week. That's definitely how I want to spend our night off. Six hours playing a board game? I can't tell if you mean sarcastic. I can't tell either.

I don't know what future meal will want to do. Don't lock me down. I love card games. There's also, but a lot of pubs seem to have like a stack of board games now. I've never seen anyone playing, but they seem to be in a lot of pubs in the corner, like, you know, loungey pubs. Like Connect 4 and stuff. Yeah, yeah. We've played Connect 4 at a cafe.

Yeah, we have. Yeah. I won. I don't think that's true. I think I won. Anyway, do go on. So, he's trying to sell this, but Gary can't get anyone to buy the game, despite him saying, this is going to sell 50,000 copies and revolutionise the biz.

He's a good salesperson. Well, apparently not, because no one's taking up on it. But he decided to scrape together some money and form his own company. Whoa. He called it Tactical Studies Rules, or TSR. Okay. He co-founded it with his old friend Don Kay, who was there the first night they played with Gary's kids. they didn't ask Dave Arneson, the co-operator of the game, to join.

Quote, Dave was never considered as a partner, Gagek says. We didn't figure he was the kind of guy who would be too good at running a business. Now it's starting to make sense why Armisen's taking pot shots from the future. He loves rules. He made too many rules about sticks. Didn't know what it was doing, but if he was inside and they got on well, he'd probably be like, you know, yeah, his strengths was he loved rules. He loved making rules.

He's a genius. I love him. Rule number one was exclude me from the money. But Arnison later... I can't believe Guy Gagax is a dog. No, no. Arnison later agreed saying that at the time he was just having fun during the thing. And he did later go on.

He didn't get stooched of all the money. Okay. Don't worry too much. But D&D sold 150 copies in its first month. Whoa. And by summer, TSR ordered another thousand copies. So it was doing pretty well. At $10 for the rules and $3.50 extra for the dice,

it was pretty pricey at the time because this is the early 70s. But through worse, of mouth the game spread from college to college and sold out its second run as well. Wow. The company made extra money by selling game scenarios, basically the equivalent of today's expansion packs, that Gygax and Arneson wrote. So Dave got money from that. Oh, right.

He'd come up with the scenario and like... So he's an employee basically. Yeah. In a way, yeah. Cool. Yeah. They're doing really well. But it became a cold hit and instantly revolutionized the war gaming scene,

which beforehand had just been for people that were into military stuff, military buffs. But D&D appealed to people that liked fantasy as well, and this brought in something new. Women! You'll be surprised to believe. Women like fantasy, men like war. Is that what you're saying? That feels a bit like a false dichotomy to me, Dave. Am I saying that right?

I don't think so. Sorry, I wasn't listening. I was fantasising. And I was over here blowing up a tank. Sorry, were you talking? Sorry. Arneson later recalled again from that wide article where they interviewed him.

Quote, Wargamer sat around talking about the latest historical books. But these D&D guys... The latest historical... We like to keep up with the latest in historical things. These D&D guys were from the science fiction community. And there were women. You go from having none at a convention to having 20% women.

And then he says, no groupies, though. Darnet. Ew. Dave Arneson. Dave Arneson. No groupies. All those women. Now there's 20% women and none of them will have sex with me.

None of them groupies. Who's, who, why are you getting, why are you expecting groupies as a guy who made up some games? He's seeing himself as the reason that these people are there. He's like, he's seeing himself as the rock star of the war gang biz. Right. And you're right, Jess. No one's sleeping with it. Oh, that's so disappointing.

Why do anything if no one will sleep with you? It sounds like an attitude thing, to be honest, Dave. Yeah. Are you talking to me or the other day? He's the one who said it, not me, can I just say. Hey, no matter your mouth. You quoted him. At this point, I can't tell the Dave's apart.

As soon as you quote someone, you agree with them. Am I right? Yeah. What I'm going to do is stop the story here. All right, thanks so much for joining us, everybody. Great, and that's lunch. Just to attempt to give context for what the game is before I keep going for the second part of the story. Is this the part where you're going to try and explain the game?

All right, great, I can't wait. Because I've never played D&D, I've watched a bunch of videos describing the basics to try and work out how I can explain to other people that never played the game vaguely how it works. Slack, okay. Very much the blind, leading the blind here. But this is just to give the game a vague context

for anyone listening who's never played. Again, if you're a diehard player, then please cut me some slack. But my understanding is every game has a dungeon master or a DM. This is the lead storyteller and adjudicator of the rules. The DM creates and sets the scenes and obstacles for the players. The player's job is to work to,

together to survive the challenges and explore the world all whilst having fun with your friend. Oh, that's written into the rules. You gotta have fun. Rule one, have fun. I don't want to cause drama. That rule is definitely not written into monopoly. Then everyone playing the game gets to create their own hero. They choose their characters, race.

Is it a dwarf? Is it an ork? Are you a human? Are you a wizard? All these sorts of things. That's a race, is it? According to the game, yes. Could you be like an orc dwarf?

Wizard or anything? Yeah, do they do any sort of crossbreeding? Yeah, I reckon you probably could. Cool. That's an expansion pack. You got to pay for that. My mom was an orc, but my dad's a wizard. My dad was a beluga whale, so.

I'm massive. My dad blew a whale. No, sorry, my dad's John McAfee, so, yeah, we got up to some weird stuff back at home. Is anyone remembering? Jess is looking at me like, I've come up with some in there. That was a John McAfee thing. I vaguely remember it.

Once I leave this studio, I forget everything. Okay. It's a terrible, terrible train. Well, we recorded that one at my place. Yep. One of the most fun parts of the game that people who play it kept pointing out in the videos was that it can be really fun escapism because you don't have to be yourself and it can be whoever you want to be in a room full of other people pretending to be other things as well.

That's a big part of the game. So you pick, I want to be an ork and then you get really into it. And big part of the game is because everyone else is doing the same thing. You're not getting laughed at for your creation. That's a big part. part of the fantasy of it. Everyone also has a character sheet that describes their character and also gives them stats which influence how well they react to things in the game.

So you might be really strong, but your character might be really dumb. But Matt might be really smart, but not strong, so you can work together. Hang on. That felt a little too targeted. A little too close to the band. Because I am very strong. Yeah, very strong. I'm the strongest in the three-laws.

For example, your character might have really strong legs. But I'm also the dumbest of the three-les. Because it might be incredibly thick. Yeah, Dave. I'm picking up. Legs and thick are the same thing, mate. Hey, that's an orc. Yeah.

Did you know what an orc was? There's sort of like a big, musly, bald guy with walrus tusks. That's probably me, actually. Did you know that? But like a lady orc. I always wondered what they were. So probably real hot. Yeah, lady pirates were always hot.

Yeah. Lady orcs, sexy. Yeah. Like Princess Fiona, you know? Yeah. She's like, sure. She's an oager, actually. No, I know, but I'm saying like, Shrek is ugly.

I have to pull you up there. But Fiona, a bit of a babe still, you know? I mean, are you saying Shrek's not? That's exactly what I said. I said, I said Shrek is ugly. I don't understand. Are you telling me that Shrek is unattractive? Yes, physically.

I don't understand. This is not computing to me. Oh my God. Did you want to fuck Shrek? Yeah. I'm so confused by that question. Oh, wow. Is that rhetorical?

I mean, I guess we all have different tastes. Does the Pope shit in the wood? Do you want to fuck Shrek? These questions are rhetorical. Dave, as you have. have a sip on your water. I want to see if you are really a ventriloquist

or if Dave, do go on. I stopped drinking five minutes ago. So everyone has a character sheet and it says like your stats, for example, strength measuring your physical power, carrying capacity, constitution, which measures your endurance, your stamina, your good health,

charisma measures your force of personality, persuasiveness. And whether or not you could lead a cult. Absolutely. But one of the videos I watched was from box and I'll link that to that into the description because it's quite interesting to watch people play it. But they broke the game play down into three basic steps.

One, describe. Two, decide. Three, roll. Describe, the dungeon master describes what's happening. For example, you see a smug-looking goblin standing up on a hill ahead. They're all smug, there's fucking goblins. Two, decide. The heroes decide what action they want to take, e.g., should we kick him in the nuts.

Yeah, probably should. Kick him in the nuts. That tiny goblin nuts. little gobby nuts. Finally, roll. You roll the dice to see whether your action was successful. Ah. So you roll the wrong number and then that's where the guy in the Cape goes, something like, oh, you took a big swing with your foot, but you missed and you fell on your butt. Yes, totally. That's exactly it. This is where the D20 or the famous 20-sided dice comes into it, called the D-20 for the cool kids. The higher you roll, the closer to 20, the more likely you are to succeed in your actions.

then you also add in bonuses from the character sheet that gives you a bonus depending on your character's traits and strengths. So if you have to outsmart someone in the game, you've got to roll the dice to see if you're able to do it. The higher you roll, the more likely you are able to do that. But say you roll a 13, not that great, but a mid-number, but then you have a plus 3 in intelligence on your sheet. You add that to the score.

Suddenly you've got a 16 baby, so you're probably going to get away. You're probably going to outsmart them. Right. Is that sort of arbitrary a little bit? So the difference between to 12 and a 13 is a little bit up to the D.M. They decide, oh, you got lucky there or you fell on your ass, whatever. Right. So your DM keeps describing stuff.

You decide what to do. And then the dice gives you a score and basically decides if you can do that action or not with a bit of discretion from the DM. And that very simply is how you play dungeons and dragons. Right. And it just goes on forever. Yeah, basically. Can you die? Yeah, I think your characters can die.

It does sound slightly unsatisfying, but obviously there's satisfaction in there. What if you die early on and your friends just keep playing and you're like, well, I guess I'll put on some popcorn against. Have you ever been bankrupted early on a monopoly? It is very boring because you went, oh, stuff it. I'm going to build a hotel here and then you land on someone else's thing and you go, oh. But then you go watch the footy in the front room. Yeah. The good room.

That's basically it. So that's my very basic understanding. I've definitely missed over some fun nuances, but I don't know. watching videos like that made me understand a bit more how it works. You're listening to that and I'm sure you're thinking, Dave, that sounds quite satanic in nature. Yeah, I wasn't thinking that. I was.

And parents of the late 70s and early 80s would agree with Jess. Right. I am basically a parent of the late 70s. You know how I said it was unsatisfying because there's no completion? I was like the idiots who knocked back buying that game. You know, the guys he said, that'll never work. Oh, you're that guy. Yeah, even though I've heard that that is not required to have a finish.

You just lost out on being a millionaire. Well, let me roll this dice and say how successful I am at rejecting the game. Oh, 20. Damn it. I successfully lost millions of dollars. So the next part of the episode is about the satanic panic around this game. Oh, that's fun. That is good fun.

Christian groups are the biggest problem with D&D for the alleged promotion of devil worship, witchcraft, suicide, murder and the presence, most importantly, of naked breasts and drawings of female human beings. humanoids in the original manuals. Boobes. Bobs on humanoids. Oh my God. Boobes.

You didn't mention anything about boobs. Yeah, there's quite a few. You roll the dice whether you get boobs. Are you saying to them that was worse than the satanic aspects, of which you haven't mentioned any? What are the satanic aspect? Or you're about to. Well, just things like orcs and witchcraft.

Satan. Because you can, in theory, summon devils and do spells or whatever. Because remember, it's an open game. You can decide whatever you want to do. But in theory, you can decide. summon God and... Oh, absolutely. So, yeah, that's the weird thing about it.

That's just the world, you know? These Christian groups had a problem with the world, right? Anyone can do whatever. Yeah, they'd certainly do it. I'm not playing that game. I'm summoning devils and worshipping whatever's, potentially. Where's your Christian group now? Don't have a problem with you.

Where's your Messiah group now? Well, let me explain a bit more. It's actually a group of guys called Christian. Oh. I just hang out. And they hated the game. They hate this game. They're just jocks.

There's bullies. It's nothing religious. They're just all called Christian. That makes sense. So up until this point, the game was a hit, but only an underground hit for people in the know. But in 1979, this would all change when D&D became front page news for all the wrong reasons. Uh-oh. In 1979, Ohio-born 16-year-old child prodigy James Dallas Egbert the third.

Oh my God. Annie's from Ohio. What a legend. James Dallas Egbert the third. What kind of child prodigy was he? A D&D child prodigy? No, computer science, child prodigy. He disappeared from his room at Michigan State University

where at only 16 he was studying computer science. Right, okay. So, you know, they accelerated him to university level. What year is this? 1979. He's doing computer science. Yeah. That's how advanced he was.

He was on the internet before it was invented. What kind of computers? Calculators? Is he studying calculators? That was the, but the computers that were the size of a football field. He was the first one to find out you could write boobs upside down on that calculators. Get this guy to uni. Oh my God.

Man, it's going to blow his mind when you figure out, you can also do boobies. What? No, they only had like six numbers at a time. His parents knew little about role-playing games, but when their son, they knew their son was into them, and when he disappeared, they came to the conclusion that that's why. His family hired a private investigator to look for him. So the family are out there blaming D&D, and it became a large news story, quoting from a BBC article here, in truth, Egbert suffered from, among other things,

depression and drug addiction and had gone into hiding and the utility tunnels underneath the university during an episode of self-harm end quote this led this to be dubbed the steam tunnel incident the case inspired the apparently terrible made-for-TV movie mazes and monsters which featured tom hanks in his debut film hanks hanks freaks out from playing too much d and d and stabs one of his friends in a steam tunnel after hallucinating that he's been turned into a monster. Right, okay. Which doesn't quite seem like that's what happened.

No, but these things like that are people like, oh my God, this game's evil. That's a powerful board game. Making people do stuff. The real egg bit was not well mentally, and after secretly emerging from the tunnels, he hid from his family at friends' houses for several weeks. So it went on and on in the media,

where is this guy? I was so hoping it was having an affair. Please. Why do they automatically assume that it was the fault of a game? That's weird, isn't it? Well, there was also, I've also read articles that say that he was struggling with homosexuality and these families who were sort of in denial about that, and they were looking for something to blame.

So they're in denial about that he has mental illness and two, that he himself is struggling with homosexuality. So they're like, it must be this devil game. That's the only thing that. we will publicly admit to is a reason that he would behave in this way. Eventually he was found and tragically he did take his own life a couple of years later. But this is the one thing, this is the put D&D onto the front page. And then it started, other Christian people were like, oh, hang on, this is a problem.

My kid's playing this as well. And it was not the only suicide link to the, in the media to D&D, furthering its reputation as satanic. Jeez, that's so strange. Patricia Pulling, an anti-occult campaigner from Richmond, Virginia, claimed that her son, a high school student, had taken his own life in 1982 because of his involvement with role-playing games, specifically naming Dungeons and Dragons. To quote the BBC again here, quote, again, it was clear that more complex psychological factors were at play. Yeah, yep. But Patricia Pulling, probably very tragically, was looking for answers, and in her mind, D&D was the cause of the tragedy.

So she tried to sue TSR games and also her school's principal And when these were thrown out, she decided to found an organisation called Bad, B-A-W-D, which stands for Bothered about Dungeons and Dragons. Bothered. Tell you what, I am passionately a bit bothered by this. That's so great. She described D&D as, quote, A fantasy role-playing game which uses demonology, witchcraft, voodoo, murder, rape,

Blasphemy, suicide, assassination, insanity, sex perversion, homosexuality, prostitution, satanic type rituals, gambling, barbarism, cannibalism, sadism, desecration, demon summoning, necromanics, divination and other teachings. And so she's listing all this to deter people? Yeah, yeah. Because if anything. My ears have pricked up. Yeah, I want to play. I'm going to play, please. My pointy orkyers have pricked up.

I'm sorry, there's boobs in this. I'm in. Pulling in bad, the bothered people, launched an intense media campaign through conservative Christian outlets as well as mainstream media, including an appearance on the current affair show 60 Minutes where she went head to head with D&D co-creator Gary Gygax.

Oh, I'm glad he got his to have his say. Which you can watch on YouTube, which I did. Gary was saying stuff like, quote, well, to use another example, if you play in Monopoly, no one gets bankrupted in real life. It's just a game. And she replied, It's not like monopoly.

There's no board. It's role playing, which is typically used for role playing mind modification. Oh, okay. And he went, fair enough. It's fair enough you got me there. That is typically used for that. The whole 60 Minutes story is particularly alarmist, and I'll link to it in the journal. Oh, the journalists have gone that way.

Yeah, definitely making it. Really biased. I thought 60 Minutes used to be like a legit sort of journalism outlet. Yeah. That was probably considered legit then. Oh, right. But, yeah. When Patricia, what Patricia and other D&D campaigners didn't realize

it was what they were doing for the game is they were increasing visibility of it. And this in turn caused it to become more popular in the mainstream. People who had never heard of it before were now hearing about it for the first time. Boobs. And of course, you tell people like teens not to play something because it's dangerous. And they're like, well, we're in, baby. Totally. So in 1982, the company saw its D&D sales shoot up to $16 million for that year.

Hey, any publicity is good publicity. I was selling better than ever. That's crazy. That's heck up to midword. That's crazy. As the popularity of D&D and other role-playing games increased, pullings, views and statements, this is Patricia, were increasingly called into question.

I don't want to laugh at her too much, as she tragically lost her son, but she did once tell a newspaper reporter that 8% of people living in Richmond, Virginia, were Satanists. She arrived at that figure, she explained, by estimating that 4% of adults and 4% of teenagers were involved with Satanism and then added that together to get 8%. When the reporter informed her that mathematically that's still only 4%, not 8%, she claimed that it did not matter because even 8% was a quote, conservative figure.

So she was really clutching at straws. Oh dear. But because of this, Gygax, Gary, received death threats and reportedly had to hire a bodyguard. Oh, man. Okay. Sorry, quick sidebar here. Bodyguard? Did you watch the bodyguard?

No. At work the other day, I was up in the triple J offices, and I was walking in in the morning, and there was a massive man. What's it happened to your face? Are you okay? She's looking at Matt for the record, not me. My face is still fine. Is that a yawn that you were stifling?

Sorry to bring it up, but you looked in pain from over there. I mean, if someone's going to stifle a yawn. Yeah. And then I brought it up. I mean, it's pretty impolite to bring it up. I'm sorry, I was worried that you were dying. No, you were boring. I know.

I know. I walked into work and there was a massive man. Like, his shoulders were like four times the width of mine and he was really tall. He looked like an orc. He was massive shaved head. Ork? I walked in and I was like, my first thought was there's been some kind of security incident. something has happened at work. Someone is in trouble.

I was scared. And then I realized these t-shirts are WWE. Oh my God, I saw that dude. It wasn't even that dude. It was that dude's security guard. Security guard. Yeah, so the dude you're talking about is, I was doing warm up for the audience on the project, and you get live guests in the studio, and the wrestler was Mark Henry.

Yes. So I was a fan of wrestling back in the day. So I was stoked to see him there. He was big back in the day? Yeah, so he's now in the WWE Hall of Fame and he's actually the world's strongest man. Like he competed in, he's got all these lifting records. Yeah, pulled two truck semi-trails at once, all this kind of stuff. But Jess is not talking about the wrestler, are you?

No, I'm talking about his security guard. Because I looked over and doing the audience warm-up. Oh, God, you saw him too. I saw the dude and I saw the WWE logo and I went, sure, that guy's got to be a wrestler as well. Afterwards, I asked the people dealing with the talent on the show. And they were like, oh no, that was just the security guy. He was the biggest dude I've ever seen. He was the biggest dude I've ever seen.

He was so big and I thought he was wearing a security lanyard and I was like, someone has died at work today. Like we are not safe here. I was like, what is happening? Tattoos coming up his neck? Yeah. If you need a, I mean, the strongest man in the world has a security bodyguard. They're going to have to be a huge man.

He was enormous. You've got to get the baddest man in the world to protect the biggest man in the world. I can't believe how massive is. I mean someone who's bothered. What? The baddest man the world is he bothered? It's bothered about Dungeons and Dragons the most. I still don't understand.

Bad. The bothered about Dungeons and Dragons, bad. Right? The thing you just talked about a couple minutes ago. I'm back on board. Okay, great. Are you with this now? I am.

I don't know. Why did I start talking about this massive man? I've forgotten. Dave said something about a security guy. Security guy. I hired a bodyguard. Yeah, right. This dude, oh man.

So huge. But just being the awkward person than I am, I didn't hesitate. I just walked into work and said like, hello, and just kept walking. That's not awkward. That's less than awkward. Yeah, you're right. But also, if something had happened, that was a weird thing to do.

But nothing had happened. Just an interview was happening. Man, he was an absolute bad ass. Huge, huge man. Bothered ass. Anyway, Dave. I don't understand. Do go on.

All right. Everything seems to be going quite well, business-wise. Yeah, everyone's okay. We're having a good time. Despite having an animated TV show based on the game and accumulating a small fortune, Things didn't go well for Gary Gagax in the 1980s. Uh-oh.

He was in talks to make a Hollywood film based on D&D, reportedly even talking to Orson Wells to make it. What? But things fell apart for him when his one small business became a large corporate entity and he handed over running of the company to businessmen so he could focus on the creative side of the project. Businessmen, what have they ever done?

Yeah. Well, sadly, this businessman did not do a good job and suddenly they were in massive debt. Gary recalled, quote, they were in $1.5 million in debt when I came back. There were 70 something odd company cars and there was something like $1.5 million in furniture. Oh my God. He was like, what are you spending the money on? Why don't it have 70 company cars? I know.

So we brought in another person. He was like, this, I think it was a lady. She'll sort this out. We can trust her. She did an even worse job and lost even more money and also bought out Gary's shares so he no longer had a controlling stake. Oh, what the hell? There were legal battles over the next decade,

as TSR would try and attempt to stop Gagax from creating a competing role-playing games. So he's basically been bully out of his own business, and now they've made it so he can't create his own business. He's not super good at business, so he brought in... People who are super good at business. And they weren't, but they were good at the gamer business because they pushed him out. But he's good at the business of games. Yeah.

But not of the game, the business? Really, it was a yin and yang thing there. they could have worked together. Sadly, they put two yins and neither of them could work out business. No one had a yang. They were yank free. Didn't have two yangs to rub together. So it's almost something.

It is almost something, yes. And if that wasn't bad enough, the two creators, Guy Gax and Dave Anderson, also had a dispute over royalties and credit, and they sued each other before coming to an agreement that they reportedly can't talk about. They continue to talk a bit of shit about each other. Gary said His contributions were ideas Nothing more

Dave can't design his way Out of a paper bag We'd just walk out of it I mean how big is a paper bag Yeah I'm assuming it's pretty big if he's in it If it's like oh I was thinking like it's like One of a tuck shop lunch bag Oh so just pull it off your head

There's no design required there's just stuck on your foot Just use the other one to get it off Yeah That's really easy But despite not being able to design that paper bag Dave was a bit nicer. He said, quote, we each brought something and we had fun. When the money came, people's personalities changed.

That's all I'm going to say. Everything went fine when it was just a bunch of guys working out of basements. And I wish that had gone on longer. Money does change people. Isn't that a bit sad? That's why I just get rid of all of it. Yeah. I buy things.

Things will never hurt me. But I found that quite sad that he was, yeah, he wished for the days of them, just, you know, him working as a security guy than at night coming home and just mucking around in the basement. But then now he's, you know, millions of dollars are involved and he's like, I prefer the basement. That's classic though. Everyone talks like that.

You hear more experienced comedians, they talk about their favorite times with coming up, you know, get to work with your mates more and all that sort of stuff. I think that's just classic nostalgia stuff. Being younger is better. Really is. I'd swap with you guys in a second. Yeah, you're so lucky, Dave. You're the youngest of all of us.

Yeah, I would not swap with either of you for a second. I'm hanging on to this extra 48 hours of youth. But I think that makes sense, you know, apart from the fact that all the stress comes in with money, but also, you know, you've got everything's just potential and it's exciting at the start. Yeah. Then there's pressure once you do start to succeed.

Yeah, I think that would make... That would make sense to me. Yeah, totally, totally. But for me, the sweet spot would have been between the basement and between suing your friend. Yeah. When you had the money and you still got your friend. Surely that's the time you want to go back.

You had a bit of money, enough money, and a friend. If you go back to the basement stuff, you've still got that bit to come. That's true. You get to live it all again. Yeah. That's nice. Go back as far as you can. Gary Gagak sold his final stake in the company in 1985. And the company continued on, but in the early 90s it faced stiff competition from computer games.

And in 1997, it found itself deeply in debt. And it was bought out by the Wizards of the Coast, the company that makes the hugely popular trading card game Magic the Gathering. Ah, I've heard of this as well. So they're a massive, massive company, selling millions and millions of cards. They made D&D profitable again, and since that time have released three more versions of the game, most recently the fifth edition coinciding with D&D's 40th anniversary in 2014.

Fifth edition? Some reason I assume there'd be more. Yeah, so they just bring out new... What's that every eight years they bring one out on average? I think there's, for a while there, they went, you know, many, many years without bringing out a new version, just rehashing. Despite the competition of computer games, D&D continues to be massively popular. And some people say it's having a renaissance now. Yeah, it feels like podcasting won't have even played into that because there's so many D&D podcasts.

Yes, there's heaps out there and many, many popular ones. A film was finally released in the year 2000 and massively flopped. Oh. Oh. In 2000? In the year 2000, yeah. The future. One of the Wayans was in it.

Okay. Diamond? Maybe Marlon. Maybe Marlon. By 2004, consumers had spent more than a billion US dollars on Dungeons and Dragons products, and the company had been played by more than 20 million people, and in 2007 it was estimated as many as 6 million people played the game that year alone. Sadly, neither of the creators are with us anymore.

Gary Gagax died in 2008 of the age of 69. Nice. Having continued to create all that time, his role-playing game Castles and Crusades was published in 2005. Dave Arneson died the following year in 2009 at just 61. He taught computer game design and game rules design at full-sale University from the 1990s until shortly before his death. Oh, wow.

So both in the 60s. So young. Yeah, both very young. But their game that they created hugely influential. There's so many spin-offs that have come from it, so many different medias that are influenced. but basically role-playing games on computers now, which is one of the most popular style of game.

I call them RPGs. Is that right? I call them MMO-R-PGs. Massively multiplayer online role-playing games. They, yeah, most of those side Dungeons and Dragons is an influence. So it's still an extremely influential thing over... A lot of Warcraft is an example, is it? That is an example.

The Sims? Is that an example? Can you play on... You play online with people? You can. They're just two. I could go on. Please.

One more. Red Dev redemption? Cowboys? That's a role-playing game. Yeah, that is. All right. Love that. That's video game chat done for the week.

Oh, but that is a nobs... Solitaire. That is a nobs guide to Dungeons and Dragons. The first episode of Block. Block, baby. block off. And to be honest, now I've seen that. I've watched people play it.

I'm keen to give it a go. Oh, we got to do. It would be fun. You're doing a bonus episode. You should hook up a game with some sort of a DM. It stands for Dungeon Master. It took me about half an hour after you said that to crack the code. But I got there.

Bloody well done. Yeah, so maybe someone from D&D is for Nerds on the Sand Spants Network. It's a fun and popular friends D&D pod. one called? Dragon Friends. Dragon Friends. That's a live one that they do in front of an audience. That would be really cool.

Maybe we should just do a live one. Our first ever time. It's just two hours of people yelling. You can't do that. Oh no. The dice has gone down a crack. Oh no. Can't get it.

Anyway, thanks for coming out. I'll just make up the numbers. I'll spin around and say a number. I'll be the human die. I'll just die. I'll die. Thanks so much to everyone that suggested that topic and voted for it to be our first block report. Yes, thank you so much everybody.

It's so good to be in block again. I mean, we're actually, you know, peek behind the curtain. We've recorded this just before Block actually began. It's so excited to be in the future right now. I cannot wait for the clock to tick over to Block. Block starts. Block a clock. Slightly early for us.

Yeah, we're so pumped up. And we've got four more weeks of Block to come. And they're going to include some of the huge. hugest topics. This one, even more huger. Three topics are even more huge than this. I have to figure out from Dave. I don't know how we figure it out without spoiling what the topics are.

But we'll figure that out off the pod. How, yeah. So stay tuned for that. The next coming weeks are going to be full of block. And now it is time for everyone's favorite section of this show. It's the fact quote or questions section. Or as Jess, the jingle goes. Fact quote or question.

And this week, the fact quote of question, is Richard Frederick Schubert the third. And the way that you can get involved in this is supporting us on Patreon at patreon.com slash to go on pod. And this is on the Sydney-Shaunberg deluxe rest in peace memorial level of support. You get to give a factor quote or a question. Or yes, you ask the question, yeah, give a question. But, you know, that's semantics now.

You want to give a question. You also get to give yourself a title. And Richard Frederick Schubert III, I think he's always maintained the same. title, the title of Caveman. He is the official caveman of the pod. He's the official Caveman of the Pod. Richard, classic caveman sounding name, Richard Frederick Shubit the third. Yes.

RFS 3. And he has given us a question. And oh my God. You know how I don't read these out before I do them? This is free. His question is, I'm not fucking around. This is genuinely full coincidence. He's just an excellent list.

What are each of your dungeons and drags? And why? Thanks again, guys. Keep up the great work. What? What are each of your... I don't know. What does that even mean?

You didn't talk about classes. I'm sorry, I've got to look that up because that was not in the YouTube tutorials that I watched. I'm so... We've got food coming. Yeah. And I'm hungry, but that has freaked me out. I feel weird.

What's going on? Weird. I mean, that's probably just a small coincidence, but that is tripping me out. Yeah, that's pretty cool. People have jobs. but adventurers have classes. Class defines an adventurous skill set.

Wizards do magic. Druids interface with nature. Barbarians hit things. Sounds like me. Not a job or an area of study. Classes are more like occupations or callings. A bard, for example, might not get paid to play music, but they weave magical music playing into their life.

Yeah, big time, I'd be a bard. Okay. Try a pot to have a song called Bard. Bard. From that show. Bad the bard. Gatty is the bard I'll give you some options

There are 12 basic classes in D&D Barbarian Bard cleric Druid Fighter Monk Paladin Ranger

Rogue Sorcerer Warlock and a wizard Those last three I feel like splitting hairs They're just magic men Yeah

Or women I My first instinct My first instinct was to go with monk. Mostly because they don't have sex. Not you, you're fucking monk.

Accurate, no. Monkey? Because they don't have sex with monkeys? Is that true? No, it's because they brew beer. Oh, I see. I'll read out the class description. You tell me this is you.

Monk. A master of martial arts, harnessing the power of the body in pursuit of physical and spiritual perfection. That Matt Stewart. Yeah. That's who I aspire to be. Also brewing beer.

I'd love to be a bard. What was the one after bard? Cleric or something like that? That feels admin and I think that could be. I'll tell you what a cleric is. Cleric, a priestly champion. No, barred for me. Bard, an inspiring magician who power echoes the music of creation.

Yeah, that sounds nice. I'm inspirational. I hear the word sorcerer and I think that sounds cool. Let me look at what sorcerer does. Spellcaster who draws on inherent magic from a gift or bloodline. Well, Affluent East. Yeah, that sounds like you. Privilege.

Yeah, privilege. I'm parents for teachers. Sorserer. Yeah, you're parents for teachers. How do they do it? How do they make it work? Your parents were teachers. I know.

What did yours do so right? Yeah, half as many kids as yours. Oh, okay, that's smart. Yeah, my, because mom, was, she wasn't working when we were kids. So four kids on a one public school. Public school made someone else somewhere else. What do you call it?

State school. It's the opposite. Yeah, that's fascinating. In England, I think. Yeah, I think so. My dad was also a very good gambler. Oh. On the site.

That's not true at all. He just never gambled. He played the stock market. Yeah. Well, that's a cool question. Yeah, that's great. Wild that it lined up with this. Really, really cool.

Maybe is a caveman a kind of Dungeons and Dragon thing? Maybe that's where that comes from. I'm not sure. It's not a class. Right. But that's really, really cool. And obviously,

that's a question that we've already got answered for when we do the Patreon bonus episode. Yeah, great. I'm now a sorcerer, which... I'm a bard. I'm going to play my motherfucker lute for you. Woo! Woo!

Thank you, RFS3, Caveman. Caveman. And that brings us to this everyone's other favorite part of the show. So we get to thank some of our Patreon supporters. Yes. Support us on patreon.com forward slash do go on pod. And maybe that ties in nicely because generally we would like to read out some names

and we sort of play a bit of a game with it. Maybe we could give them a class. Oh, good idea. Okay, I've got the list here. So we've got six. There's six remaining classes we can give? I think there was about 12, wasn't it? Oh, perfect.

That works that well. Yeah, 12 basic classes. We've picked three. Okay, great. Well, I'll kick things off, shall I? Please do. I would like to thank from London, where we are going. That's right.

Second show on sale now. Maybe sold out by now. Who knows? Where? Where? It was a couple days ago. I would like to thank Scott Porter. Oh, Scott Porter.

I'm going to say that Scott Porter's not a porter, but a fighter. Oh, okay. A master of martial combat, skilled with a variety of weapons and armor. Yeah. That's a cool one. Give him anything. He can kill you with it. Could he be an orc fighter?

Does it work like that? You can be an elf fighter or if you're a fighter or something else? I don't, I can't tell you 100%. But to me, it feels like you pick your race, which we were talking about before, your type of character. And then this is an extra thing to pick. And there's probably several more options because that, you know, that's part of the fun of the game is that there's, I guess, limitless combinations. You could be anything. Scott Porter.

I really like that name. I like Porter. I like Porter. It's a nice dark beer. Yeah. And hopefully Scott also enjoys a porter. And I like Scott. I like Scott too.

Got Porter. Great name. And a great fighter. Great fighter. And I'd also like to thank from Chicago. Oh, where Guy Gag's from himself. Yeah. I'd love to thank Zoe Roberts. Zoe Roberts. Fantastic. Do you hear Roberts and then think Palladon? Yes. A holy warrior bound to a sacred oath.

Yeah. That's the sort of vibe I'm picking up from Zoe. I felt that. Paladin. For show. I've heard that word before. Yep. That's sick, yeah. Zoe Roberts, Paladin, but also an orc. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, they're all orcs. Yeah. What are the ones can there be? Elfs. Elves, dwarves? Wizards? Wizards? Humans.

Humans. It's funny if you were human. So you could be a wizard and then a warlock. Or a wizard and a sorcerer wizard, warlock wizard. That's confusing, yeah. Fascinating stuff. Fascinating. What a world.

I mean, I think so. I watched two YouTube videos on how to play the game. So I'm pretty. world of Warcraft, so to speak. Thanks so much, Zoe. I'd also love to thank from Crows Nest in Queensland. This is Crows Nest. That's how all the mailing in things when you're a kid

or lockback crow's nest. That's a place. That must be a place. I did not realize. Of course. So I wonder if Gillian Plant, who I'm thanking right now, do you work for a TV mail room? Yeah, so if you wanted to like enter a kid's coloring competition,

You sent it to Locked Bag, 306, blah, blah, crow's nest. I assumed that that was like, I don't know. Yeah, I don't know. I didn't realize what was a real place. Seemed magical as a kid, crow's nest. Maybe it is. Gillian plant. Well, magical's the vibe you've got for us.

Okay, magical. I think I'm going to go for a druid. Oh, druid. A priest of the old faith. Wielding the powers of nature, moonlight and plant growth, fire and lightning, and adopting animal forms. Oh, wow. What kind of animal?

Oh, that's cool. Tiger. Tiger. Gillian Plant, the tiger. The tiger from the crow's nest. Tiger from the crow's. And she's, that's a druid, did you say? Yeah, druid.

Druid, tiger. Wow, and also an ork. How cool. Thank you so much, Gillian Plant, you goddamn legend from crow's nest in Queensland. That's blown me away. I'd also love to thank from Holy moly Halifax in Nova Scotia, Canada.

That's right. Leslie McLeod. Leslie McLeod is such a lovely name. Love that. This has been a sick list of names. Leslie McLeod. And Leslie McLeod is a... A Ranger.

Ranger. A warrior who uses martial, prowess and nature magic to combat threats on the edges of civilization. Edge and civilization, because remember, that was the last port between North America and Europe. Yeah. They are right on the edge there on the east. Wow. That is cool.

I wonder if she uses any sort of explosive magic. Yeah, like bombs. With the power of bomb This is a magic bomb Ranger Leslie I love that All right I would like to thank

From Ipswich in Suffolk I would like to thank First name Mr Mr. Last name Darrell B Finland Darrell be Finland Always be Finland ABF

That is funny Well I think that he What's Darrell up to Darry be Finland What's Darrell? I reckon he's a bit of a rogue. Oh. Yeah, big time.

I have a t-shirt that says rogue. Whoa. Is this you? Because this is Darrell. A scoundrel who uses stealth and trickery to overcome obstacles and enemies. Yeah, you had me at scoundrel. That is just the scoundrel.

That is cool. So you and Darrell, got a lot in common. Couple scoundrels. Dirty rot and scandals. What do we like? Thank you, Mr. Darrell be Finland. And finally, bringing it home to North Melbourne Here in Victoria, I would like to thank

Zachary Bar. Zachary Bar! So he should be a bard. Oh, he should be a bard. But you know what? We haven't done one of these. It's a warlock. Warlock.

A wielder of magic that is derived from a bargain with an extra planter. A $2 shop. Yeah. Yeah, with an extra planter entity. I don't know what that means, but that's you, mate. That's you. That's what are you, Zachary Bar.

Big time Zach Bar. Zach Bar. A Mr. Zachariba. Hey, if you're a... I'm not running through my mind as well. Of course you did. I'm in your head. If you are a D&D player,

let us know what your class and race and all that kind of stuff is. That would be quite cool. Yeah, it would be fascinating. What people are. And if you've ever dressed up in a cape, send us a photo. I love seeing people in those big wizard capes. You know, the boss, the DM?

Do they wear capes? I think they, well, I don't think there's any hard and fast rules, even though Gary Gaga counter probably wanted them to. Gary Gagher counter. But I think often they do, or at least in the ones I've seen on TV, I think they normally juzed up a bit. Oh, I love a joosh. Stranger things, like the boy who went out to the Down Under in the first season,

he was the DM in the third season, and he was wearing full wizardy outfit, and the others were just not as into it as him. Right, okay. So it's really an up-to-you thing. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, when I was watching it, some people, when they're their character, speak in third person, like, oh, my character does this, but other people say, and then he says, and then they put on the voice, hello, druid. Oh, yeah.

So it's just up to you how into it you want to get. I'm so keen to do this. We've got to do the voice. We've got to commit. I think I'll, commit to that bit. Mine has an accent. Oh, what kind of accent? An offensive one.

Oh. My Chinese druid says, oh, Jess, no. I'm going to get cancelled. That's my dream. About time too. Thanks everyone that supports the show on Patreon. You make our world a better place. And if you want to get all the stuff like shoutouts and the fact quote a question,

but also two bonus episodes per month, you get to vote for topics, be in the Patreon group, get pre-sell tickets to all our shows. You can do that at any time. And like we say, it does really brighten up our little lives. Dave, can I give you a quick fun fact before we go? I'd love one, yes. You mentioned Gary Cooper, the actor, who Gary Gagacanna was named after.

Yeah. I looked him up. His Wikipedia page is epic. It's so long. He's obviously, he was, uh, he had a huge career, but he's also a two-time best actor Academy Award winner. What? Really?

He won in 1942 for Sergeant York. And he won in 1953 for high noon, which, and that, you know, and that, you year he also won the Golden Globe Award for the same. He also won in 1959 and 1960. He won at the Laurel Awards. He won top action performance for the Hanging Tree and they came to Kajura. So I think he became a big cowboy actor. And then in 1961 he won an Academy Honorary Award too. So he kind of like a three-time. Oh right. And looking at that was the year he died at the age of 60. Wow, not very old at all. So he,

yeah, he was like, he's obviously quite a legend and makes sense that people are named after him. And yeah, he's been inducted into the Gary Hall of Fame.

Absolutely. One of the first members you'd think. Yeah. I've got to start that up. Could you make a page on our website, Dave, this is the Gary Hall of Fame? Just a photo of each of the Gary's?

That'd be seen. That would be fun. When you've got spare time. Yeah, that's right. I'll find some time for that. Well, congratulations to Gary Cooper, one of the first members of the Gary Hall of Fame. Yeah, and Gary Giger counter as well.

Gary, what's his actual name? We said it. Guy Gax. Guy Gax. So good. So amazing. Such a great name. So good.

But that sadly does bring us to the end of this week's episode. Thank you so much for joining us for the first Block Buster Tofa Grace episode for the month. Four more to come. We're lucky to have five Wednesdays in this month. Yeah, what a treat. What a real treat. A couple of surprises up our sleeve, a guest or two possibly. Who knows?

That's very exciting. This is a bit of fun. I'd also like to say that my parents made a lot of great financial decisions. I didn't mean to say that Dave's teacher parents are better than my teacher parents earlier. My dad was just a better problem gambling yours. That's really weighed on my conscience. I mean, they're on a holiday right now. They're doing fine.

They bought a caravan. They're fine then. I think they're going. They've got a height of wealth. Might have find a practice. Mine just went to Adelaide, so sucked in dickens. Our parents have all got things happening, okay? But yeah, seriously, thanks for everyone that listened to this week's episode.

We'll be back with a blockbuster Tover Grace next week. But until then, I'll say thank you. And goodbye. Later. Bye! And food's just about to be delivered, and we're really happy chappies. This podcast is part of the Planet Broadcasting Network. Visit planetbroadcasting.com for more podcasts from our great mates.

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