Do Go On - 311 - John Wayne Gacy: The Killer Clown

Starting point is 00:00:00 Melbourne and Canada, we got exciting news for you. And we should also say this is 2026. Jess, what year is it? 2026. Thank God you're here. Right now, I'm in Melbourne doing my show with Serenji Amarna, 630 each night at the Cooper's Inn Hotel, having so much fun. We'd love to see you there.

Starting point is 00:00:17 Canada, we are visiting you in September this year. If you've somehow missed the news, we are heading up Vancouver, Calgary, Montreal, and Toronto for shows. That's going to be so much fun. Tickets for all this stuff, I believe, are online. And I'm here too. Welcome to another episode of Do Go On. My name is Dave Warnikey and, as always, I'm here with Matt Stewart and Jess Perkins.

Starting point is 00:00:49 Hello, Dave, hello, Dave, hello, to both of you. And can I just say two small words? Yes. That is, happy block. Oh, happy block, Dave. I'm so excited. It's finally here. My favorite time of year.

Starting point is 00:01:05 Locktoberfest, it's happening. Do you know what? I reckon they're putting up block decorations earlier and earlier. I saw some in April this year. That's amazing. I'm so excited for new listeners, Blocktoberfest or Blocktofer Grace Period or whatever you want to call it, is the month of the year where we do the biggest, most requested topics.

Starting point is 00:01:29 We do the big ones, the blockbusters. And I'm so pumped to get into it. Quick question for the listeners. What are you doing for Block? Well, I don't know. The question on everyone's lips. Is it possible that 2021 is the biggest block we've ever done? Is that possible?

Starting point is 00:01:46 Dave, I know you're being facetious there. But yes, it bloody is. It can be and it is because for the first time ever, last year we annexed the last Wednesday in September. This year we're annexing the whole of November for Block. For the first time ever, is going for two months. Huge. No one's complaining, I hope.

Starting point is 00:02:06 I hope no. Yes, we're going to be like, oh, I just want to get back to the trash topics. I like the obscure ones, thanks. These ones are too interesting. Block decorations seem to stay up longer every year. Do you reckon it would benefit us to make every month block month? And what I mean by that is do really good topics all the time. I mean, well, I think that's possible we could do it for nearly three years

Starting point is 00:02:33 because this year Matt put up 140 topics for the vote. It's nearly three years worth. Yeah. I mean, maybe it would make some sense. But I think it's fun sometimes to do some more obscure topics. Absolutely. No. I think every single episode we've done has been an absolute banger.

Starting point is 00:02:50 I don't think we can miss. Oh, I'm not suggesting we miss. No. Nothing but net every week. Every week. How do they do it? The 312 or whatever we're up to in a row. Whoa.

Starting point is 00:03:01 But, yeah, sometimes we like to do some small ones. but this month or these months are all about the big ones. These are the big, famous topics that so many people have suggested. Dave, how does this show work for new listeners, just in general? Well, what we do is we research a topic. We take it in turns, go away, research the topic, bring it back to the other two in the form of a report. And we don't know what the other person's going to talk about

Starting point is 00:03:26 when we're not the one reporting. And that's you, Matt. You're kicking off block this year. This is, what is that, eighth, ninth, something like that most requested topic. And Jess and I, we're sitting here in anticipation. What's it going to be? And you start with a question to get us under topic.

Starting point is 00:03:41 That's right. So the question this week is, which infamous American serial killer is sometimes referred to as the killer clown? Oh. Killer clown. That's definitely haunted a lot of people's nightmares. Bozo.

Starting point is 00:04:00 Not Bozo. This is an actual killer. Well, not that I know for sure Bozo didn't kill. Kill before and he'll kill again. I think I do know the answer to this one. Go ahead. I'm going to lock in John Wayne Gacy. That's correct.

Starting point is 00:04:15 It is John Wayne Gacy. Okay. It's rare that you read out that name and you'll get an ooh. Yeah, good point. That felt wrong. Yeah, it's going to feel wronger as the episode goes along. Awesome. Want to be clear, I think that all was,

Starting point is 00:04:32 I've heard that name before but didn't know about the clown killer part. Yeah. So John Wayne Gacy just snuck in over the next most voted for topic, which we won't be doing, which was another serial killer. Ah. They're always pretty popular, the serial killer ones. People love the killers. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:04:51 We haven't done one for all. Maybe not since last block even. I think maybe because we went, oh, these make us sad. And there's so many true crime podcasts out there. But, I mean, how many are doing topics like a treasure hunt by an eccentric millionaire? Good point. Very good point. So we'll stick to our lane most of the year.

Starting point is 00:05:13 But for Block, anything goes. The thing about our lane is it's so wide. So wide. It's like one of those eight lane freeways in Germany or something, you know? Exactly. It's very much like a German freeway. The Ahtabound. Don't say that right, Dave.

Starting point is 00:05:29 How'd you get so right? Altubon. Get to the automobile, then the chopper. So, John Wayne Gaetie has been suggested by multiple people. Let me read out some names. I was suggested by Callum Carl from Belfast. Yusuf Javid, okay me, from Erskine, Scotland. Alec McElroy from Lawrence in Kansas in the United States.

Starting point is 00:05:57 Connor Scuba Shark Reid from Manchester in the United Kingdom. Laura Nichol from Brisbane, McKenna Middlebrook from Potsdam in New York in America, Shannon from Rhode Island, in America, I assume, Odie Matthews from Salt Lake City in Utah in the United States, Ari Katz from Israel, Michael Luch from Moore in Oklahoma in the United States, Christina Gonzalez from Ventura, California, Austin Bain from Manchester and Maryland, US. Ventura, California, what country is that? I think in the United States. I don't know why I was, yeah.

Starting point is 00:06:33 I just read them out as they write them down. I just felt like you'd back yourself into a corner where you had to say each country. Well, there was a little bit of that as well. And finally, Christian from address unknown. Oh, mystery. So this probably goes without saying. This is a grim topic.

Starting point is 00:06:52 And if you're not in the mood for a grim topic, dear listener, this might be a skippable one for you. They don't get much more grim than this. Yeah. Not that I go, I don't go into too many grisly details or anything like that, but yeah, it is a, he's a real bad guy. Right. Anyway, whatever.

Starting point is 00:07:09 You understand what I'm saying. So we try and keep it light. Obviously, we're not making light of what he did. Here we go. The start of my report here, a lot of it comes from a Chicago Tribune article. Are you ready? Yes. On December 11th, 1978, at around 9 p.m.,

Starting point is 00:07:30 Robert Peast, a 15-year-old employee of the Nissan Pharmacy in Des Plains, Illinois, a suburb of Chicago, was finishing up his shift. His mother, Elizabeth, arrived to pick him up and drive him back to their Des Plains house to celebrate her 46th birthday with their family. Peast asked her to wait for him. He said he just had to see someone before they left, saying he wanted to talk to a contractor about a job. Apparently, he'd overheard someone while finishing his shift who suggested they had a labouring job that would pay double what he was earning at the pharmacy. While he said he would be back in a couple of minutes, he never returned. After waiting, Elizabeth Pease, his mother, became alarmed and drove back to her house before returning with her husband, Harold, son Ken,

Starting point is 00:08:21 daughter Kerry and the family's two German shepherds. And they had a search around the neighborhood but found no trace of their boy. At 11.29 p.m., Elizabeth Peast arrives at the Des Plains Police Station to file a missing person's report for a son. After speaking to Elizabeth, Lieutenant Joseph Kozenchak is convinced that something sinister has happened. He saw Peace as a good kid from a good family and was unlikely to be a runaway. It would have been quite strange for him to runaway in that sort of scenario. Oh, I'm really glad that that's sort of the reaction because so often you hear like, they're like, uh, come back tomorrow.

Starting point is 00:09:00 I'm sure he's going to be. Yeah. Kids, they, kids wander off. And it's like, no, he just spoke to his mother and said, just give me a sec. Yes. Unfortunately, I think there was a lot of that in this story. Okay. A lot of, a lot of parents and stories might have been dismissed at different times.

Starting point is 00:09:19 even just the way they talked, the policeman talked about, it was a good kid from a good family, very unlikely to be a runaway, sort of almost suggests that you go, if he's making calls about other kids, you're the kind of kid who might have run away, so maybe I won't investigate it quite as hard. This kid really loves school and his family, you know, his upstanding members or whatever,

Starting point is 00:09:41 let's really investigate. Anyway, they just sounded a little bit like that. The owner of the Nissan pharmacy, Phil Torf, suggested that a man named John Wayne Gacy was most likely the contractor piece had mentioned. Gacy was at the pharmacy to discuss a remodeling job with Tauph. He just remodeled the pharmacy. Gacy, a 36-year-old man, ran a construction business called PDM contractors. PDM stood for painting, decorating and maintenance.

Starting point is 00:10:11 PDM had come to specialize in pharmacy remodeling and in 1978 had an annual revenue of about $200,000. or about $850,000 in today's money. So it was a pretty successful company. Specializing in pharmacies. That seems so obscure. How interesting, yeah. Yeah, so apparently it was, you know, quite a good talk. He'd go into a pharmacy and say, I can remodel this to really maximize sales and

Starting point is 00:10:37 that sort of stuff, you know? It's all about positioning and levels and having things, you know, lines of sight and all this sort of stuff. Has he dressed as a clown when he's doing this? No. That would really stand out. Yeah. He'd remember that guy.

Starting point is 00:10:49 Yeah, he's the clown contractor. You know the clown? Hey, hey, hey, he starts juggling. And then you're like, whoa, whoa, whoa, before you know, before you signed a contract to remodel your pharmacy. That's a clown. That's how it gets you. Somehow he does it.

Starting point is 00:11:05 He takes your bind off it. He's one of those close-up magic clowns, you know? Yeah. Hey, look over here. Sign the contract over here. Ooh. Sorry, Matt, what year was this? 1978.

Starting point is 00:11:17 Thank you. Yeah, right. So the pharmacy owner, Tauph, let the cops know the only contractor that I know of who was there. I was actually meeting with him. Don Wayne Gacy. This is who he is sort of thing. With that tip, the police decide to investigate Gacy further. So he's asked to come into the police station for questioning.

Starting point is 00:11:37 He calls Cousin Jack, the lieutenant back at 11pm, asking, do you still want to talk to me? And Cousin Jack responds, yeah, how long do you think it will take you to get here? Gacy replies about a half hour. But two hours later, the lieutenant was still waiting at 1 a.m. Finally, at 3.20 a.m., Gacy wanders into the Desplanes police station with mud stains on his pants and shoes. Cousin Jack is no longer there, though, and Gacy is told to come back later in the day, which he does, giving a brief statement saying he has no knowledge about the disappearance.

Starting point is 00:12:13 On the surface, Gacy was seen as an upstanding member of the community. He ran a successful business in PDM construction. He was involved in local politics and was a member of multiple community groups. But then on December the 20th, a few days later, the police learnt via a routine background check that he had served time in Iowa for the sodomy of a 15-year-old boy when he was 26, as well as an outstanding battery charge against him in Chicago. So all of a sudden they're like, we're definitely on 20. our man here.

Starting point is 00:12:47 Yeah. Cousin Chack asked Gacy for the keys to his house, showing him a search warrant. Gacy protested this, but eventually surrendered his keys. Inside the house, police and Cook County Sheriff's Office Evidence Technicians discover a receipt for a role of film being developed. The Peace family says the receipt belongs to a female friend of their son. Peace offered to have the film developed for her. That connected piece directly to the house.

Starting point is 00:13:18 They also sees other items from inside, including a Main West High School ring, as well as Gacy's car, van and a pickup truck to be searched later. And that was in his house. That was all in his house. The ring wasn't connected to peace. It was a different school, but it was just another interesting piece of evidence. They're like, this doesn't seem to belong here. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:13:41 Amazingly, the cops, they found that receded. in the bin. It was something they said, we assume this is, he was just getting photos developed, but we'll take it just in case. And it turned out to be a real key piece of evidence. Wow. So it belonged to the kid's friend. Yes.

Starting point is 00:13:59 And he said, I'll get them developed for you. Wow. Yeah, that's right. And it seems like she may have borrowed his jacket and put it in there. Oh. Yeah. Somehow he ended up with this receipt, though. Wow.

Starting point is 00:14:13 No other items relating to peace are found, but police conclude peace was clearly in Gacy's house. Gacy, who had been twice married and twice divorced at this point and was currently living alone, was released from jail around 11pm. So they didn't quite have enough to go in, but they're like, we feel like this is our man, we're going to have to get more evidence, and they kept working on that. Well, I'm going to leave that there and go back to the start. So John Wayne Gacy, born March 17th, 1942 in Chicago, Illinois. It's the second child of John and Marion Gacy.

Starting point is 00:14:51 Biography.com states that Gacy was born into a blue-collar family and seems to have had a fairly ordinary childhood. That doesn't seem to stack up against multiple other sources where they say his early years were anything but ordinary, suffering beatings from his alcoholic father and being sexually abused by a family friend on multiple occasions. According to Alec Wilkinson, writing for the New Yorker, Alex Wilkinson later sat down over multiple sessions to interview Gacy.

Starting point is 00:15:22 So he's one of my main sources that I'll quote from. So Wilkinson writes, when Gacy was a child, his father spent hours by himself in the basement of the house where they were living in Chicago. His wife and son and two daughters were prohibited from going down there. through the floor they sometimes heard him talking in different voices. When he emerged, he was often drunk and likely to be violent. One evening, he struck his wife so hard that he knocked out some of her teeth,

Starting point is 00:15:49 and then he chased her into the street and beat her some more. Though by the sounds of it, John Wayne Gacy did not have an ideal or standard childhood. I'd love to know what History.com sees as a standard childhood. Yeah, biography.com, yeah, it's interesting, right? Yeah, run of the mill, nothing out of the ordinary. Having said that, we are only the standard. Having said that, we only write biographies about serial killers. So anyway, who knows?

Starting point is 00:16:11 Yeah. I myself am a serial killer. So now it's normal for me. I think it's, yeah, it's sort of tricky territory because you're like, you don't want to excuse what he became because of his childhood. But, I mean, it feels like it's, you know, worth mentioning perhaps. It's a pretty common theme that you tend to see in people who go on to do stuff like this. And that's not to say that everybody who has a traumatic childhood is a serial killer.

Starting point is 00:16:43 But, you know, you do tend to see it a lot in these killer episodes. Skip ahead a little bit. When Gacy was 18, he started getting involved with the Democratic Party, working as an assistant precinct captain for a candidate in his area. When he was 20, he ran away from home to Las Vegas. He dropped out of school young. He had a bit of a tough time at school. He sort of had health issues.

Starting point is 00:17:07 He believed he had a hard issue. His dad didn't really believe him. He thought he was just trying to get sympathy. He ran away from home at 20. Can you say you're running away from home when you're 20? It is interesting, right? Because he, I mean, I phrased it that way because I read it that way a few times. But he left without telling his parents.

Starting point is 00:17:26 He was paying off his car and he'd fallen one pain behind through his dad. And his dad, you know, took the keys off him. So he had to sort of take the car from his dad. basically and yeah he ran away to los Vegas he had 136 dollars to his name by the time he got to Vegas after petrol and motel costs he arrived with 35 bucks then he went to a casino gambled 25 of those dollars said he had a bad run of luck and then slept in his car before passing out in the hot Nevada sun saying he's like you know I was used to the milder climates of Chicago I didn't know He didn't leave your windows up in the baking desert sun.

Starting point is 00:18:11 He awoke to find an ambulance pulling him out, taking him to hospital. After being released, he was unable to pay the ambulance fee. He offered to pay the debt by washing ambulances, but he was instead offered a job. I think the ambulance boss at this depot was like, like your moxie kind of thing. Hey, appreciate you being truthful there. Young man, want a job? He's like, yeah, great. It turned out, though, that he needed to be 21 and he was only 20.

Starting point is 00:18:39 So instead, the ambulance guy found him a job working at the local mortuary, and that's where he lived and worked for about three months. All right. You're not old enough to wash ambulances, but you are old enough to wash dead bodies. Come on over. Yeah. This is pretty full on. According to Wilkinson, who was able to interview Gacy, as I said before, later in 1994,

Starting point is 00:19:03 Gacy told me that he grew homesick and went back to Illinois in the beginning of July. But other accounts say that one night in the mortuary, he climbed into a coffin containing the body of a boy whose manner of death had left him with an erection and arranged the body on top of him. He grew frightened and jumped out and the next day called his mother and asked if she thought that his father would allow him to come home. His father agreed, said, yes, you can come home. and he went back to Chicago the following day.

Starting point is 00:19:34 Once home, he enrolled at Northwestern Business College, graduating in 1963, before taking a trainee position with a shoe company. In 1964, he was transferred to Springfield, Illinois, to work as a shoe salesman. In time, he was promoted to department manager, and while there, he started dating co-worker Marilyn Myers. Gacy told Wilkinson that while work, working as a shoe salesman, he put a lot of effort into his clothes saying, just by looking at me, he knew I had to be the boss.

Starting point is 00:20:08 I dressed and looked like an owner or a millionaire, even when I was young. I never wore brown because a man from a menswear brand said, I didn't look good in brown. I like rich dark colours, blues, blacks, burgundy, grays, olives, some wool, but I stayed with shark skins and silks because of the richness. So he dressed like a boss. Like I'm imagining a guy, he's got a name tag. that says, hi, my name is the boss.

Starting point is 00:20:33 Yeah. 22-year-old guy, I just really, a lot of weird self-belief in him, you know. Yeah. If given the chance, in any of the interviews or other people who knew him through his life, they're like, he would talk your ear off,

Starting point is 00:20:48 a real blow hard, you know, especially to talk about himself, favorite topic and he'll go on for hours sort of thing. After dating for six months, Gacy married Marilyn Myers in September of 1964, They were to move to Waterloo, Iowa, so Gacy could manage the three Kentucky Fried Chicken Outlets Myers' father had purchased.

Starting point is 00:21:09 It was a big deal for the newlyweds with Gacy earning a salary of 15 grand a year plus a share in the profits, 15 grand being about 130 grand today. Oh, damn, yeah, good money. Good money for a guy who just before was living in a mortuary. Yeah. Because he had no money. After Gacy graduated from the KFC Chicken School

Starting point is 00:21:28 in Louisville, Kentucky, the couple moved to Waterloo. Sorry, is that a real thing? That broke Dave. I call it the chicken school. Doesn't McDonald's have like McDonald's University or something? Yeah, I think that's right. I think one of you talked about it was a long time ago.

Starting point is 00:21:43 The chicken school sort of implies you look around and all your fellow students are all chickens. Yeah, you're all there to learn to be a chicken. I think I'm in the wrong place. He's like, he wouldn't be thinking like that. He'd be there going, so much smarter than all these idiots. Yeah. Yeah. How do I assert to these chickens that I'm the boss? If I told you that he was going to go to a novelty learning establishment,

Starting point is 00:22:10 you would have guessed clown college, right? Yeah, 100%. Yeah, chicken school. Chicken school, there you go. Yeah, I graduated chicken school. Once there, he converted his basement into a kind of staff club for his mainly teenage employees where they could play pool and drink booze. booze. Gacy gave many of his teenage employees alcohol before he made sexual advances.

Starting point is 00:22:34 When they knocked him back, he claimed he was only joking. Gacy also joined the local JCs. I don't hear of this, the JCs. It seems like it's maybe a relatively common thing in America. Maybe it's like the apex. If you heard of Apex in Australia, it's just sort of like a community group. So it's short for Junior Chamber or the United States Junior Chamber and not for-profit organization that focuses on business development, management skills, individual training, community service, and international connections for people aged 18 to 40. Sounds boring!

Starting point is 00:23:10 Apparently, it's a real weird sounding place. I don't think this is all JCs, but this particular branch of the JCs sounded real strange. Apparently they would regularly show porn films, so they'd have meetings and they're watching porn as a group. they'd hire sex workers and get involved with partner swapping. Right. And then they're like, anyway, now onto business. Business.

Starting point is 00:23:35 That's what we're here for. I mean, that's all a bit of fun around the sides, but we're here. We've had our social time. Back to business chat. Now, whose wife am I going to fuck? First on the agenda. At JC's meetings, it would provide free fried chicken for the other members and insist that they called him colonel.

Starting point is 00:23:58 Okay. I hate that. They're like, hey, John. A, ah, ah, ah, ah. Colonel. Yeah, what do you need? Chicken? Oh, my God.

Starting point is 00:24:11 Well, you've come to the right place. Gacy rose fast up the ranks of the Springfield J.C. He's, and by 1965 had become the vice president of the chapter. Oh, how many ranks below a colonel is that? Yeah, he must feel weird about that way. He became the actual colonel. Not the VP, I'm the colonel. So he was also recognized as,

Starting point is 00:24:30 the third most outstanding JC in the state of Illinois. It's something about him that people seem to like. Wow. Like a lot of psychos we've talked about, has some level of charisma. Yeah. Yeah, seems to be able to make people like him. I wonder how shocking it is because obviously he's such a sociable guy. So many people know who he is.

Starting point is 00:24:52 Like in 15 years time or whatever when he's busted and is all over the news if everyone's like, oh my God, that's John. That's the Colonel. Or if they're like, yeah, I thought he was a bit odd. I wonder if they're... Yeah, that's not a surprise. Yeah. So many people obviously know him.

Starting point is 00:25:06 He's part of clubs. He's moved all over. Like, yeah. But if you not met people or like, you know, interacted with acquaintances and you're like, if I found out they'd, you know, murdered someone, I wouldn't be shocked. How many people do you feel this way about Bob? Jesse, are you looking at one right now? Maybe.

Starting point is 00:25:25 Maybe I'm looking at a couple. No, of course not. But you know, there's... I wouldn't say... say like going on a full serial killer spree, but there's definitely people. I'm like, if you did something creepy, it wouldn't shock me. Right. These aren't friends. These are like acquaintances at best. Gotcha. Colonels. They all demand to be called colonel. It's a real, it's an early sign. Anybody who says, please call me Colonel, get the fuck away from that person.

Starting point is 00:25:53 We have all this other knowledge about him. But it just feels like this guy insisting you call him Colonel. I mean, there's other things. There's things like him having set up a clubhouse where he gives alcohol to miners is also probably, you know, quite a large red flag. Cracks onto them and then says, I'm only joking when they say no. Yeah, I get the impression that this is all, like this isn't like a, this isn't an out there knowledge. I don't think the parents are probably knowing about this as far as I assume. Then in August of 1967, Gacy sexually assaulted the 15th year old son of another JC member. He lured him to his house promising to show him pornography like they'd play at the JC Club before applying him with alcohol and sexually assaulting him.

Starting point is 00:26:41 According to Wilkinson, on a few occasions during the fall, Gacy paid him for sex. Around the same time, Gacy assaulted another boy, one who worked for him. He said that after work one night, Gacey offered to drive him home. They ended up at Gacey's house. Gacy's wife was in the hospital giving birth to their second child. Oh my God. When Gacy served the boy whiskey, they watched Stagg films, which apparently was apparently a type of porn film from the old days. Then Gacy attacked him and strangled him until he nearly passed out.

Starting point is 00:27:14 When the boy revived, Gacy said that he hadn't meant to hurt him and he drove him home. Then a few days later fired him. Oh, God. Yuck. Absolute piece of shit. Not that that's a surprise, but yuck. The first boy told his father who went to the police and Gacy was arrested and charged with committing oral sodomy. So this is the charge that the police would later uncover.

Starting point is 00:27:41 Yeah, right. Wilkinson continues. Where of the boys' stories spread through the town in the days before the indictment and the county's attorney's office found other boys who said that they had been to Gacy's house and that Gacy had asked them to go down on him or had tried to convince them to. allow him to go down on them. Dacey asked to be given a lie detector test, and he failed it. He asked to be given another, and he failed that one too. Why are you asking? That's so dumb.

Starting point is 00:28:09 Why are you asking for a lie detector says when you know you're lying? Pest of seven. You can just picture him going up. Go again. Yeah. Go again. Hang on, hang on, hang on. Sorry, I think I'm getting it now.

Starting point is 00:28:20 That's, most, is like, I don't deserve this kind of shuddy treatment. Yeah. Yeah. After failing it twice, apparently in the county attorney's office, it was said that the only answer he got right was his name. I think it sounds like that was a little joke that had around the office. In August 1968, Gacy engaged a high school senior to intimidate the boy and keep him from testifying at his trial. The senior drove the younger boy into the woods outside town and sprayed mace in his eyes, then beat him up and told him not to testify.

Starting point is 00:28:51 What the fuck? The boy broke free and hid in a cornfield. When he got back into town, he went to the police and gave them the name of his attacker. The senior student told the police that Gacy had provided the mace and had promised to pay off his car loan. Gacy pleaded guilty to sodomy and he expected to receive probation and to be allowed to move back to Illinois. Instead, he got 10 years at the Iowa State Reformatory for men in Anamosa. I think quite a solid sentence, a 10-year sentence for this. In the court proceedings, he was psychiatrically evaluated. Part of that evaluation read, the most striking aspect of his test results is the patient's total denial of responsibility

Starting point is 00:29:36 for everything that has happened to him. He can produce an alibi for everything. He presents himself as a victim of circumstances and blames other people who are out to get him. The patient attempts to assure a sympathetic response by depicting himself as being at the mercy of a hostile environment. So spot on way before he committed most of his crimes. There was all these huge red flags, but now he was going away for 10 years. So the judge said that the severity of his sentence was intended to make certain that for some period of time, you cannot seek out teenage boys to solicit them for immoral behavior of any kind. While Gacy was in the reformatory, his wife divorced him and he never saw his wife or children again. After

Starting point is 00:30:23 serving only 18 months, though, he was paroled. In June of 1970, he left for Chicago. There he moved into his mother's apartment and got a job as a restaurant cook. He often told people he met there that his ex-wife was the daughter of Colonel Sanders, the founder of Kentucky Fried Chicken, which was a real weird lie. That's such a strange lie. I can't believe he served 18 months of a 10-year sentence. Yes. It seems to be. It seems. It seems like a real small sliver of what it was meant to be. Yeah, we'll give you an 85% reduction. Don't worry about it.

Starting point is 00:30:59 Yeah, and that for, you know, for some period of time, you can't engage teenage boys. Yeah, the judge did not sound confident that once he was back out, that he wouldn't go straight back to it. And the judge was correct if that's what they were thinking. Apparently, he was a model inmate in jail, and that was part of the reason why he was paroled so early, I guess. Part of his parole conditions was that he had to live with his mother, which he did, as well as adhered to a 10pm curfew and obviously not be a sexual predator. Unfortunately, while he did live with his mother, he did not adhere to the other two stipulations. On February the 12th, 1971, Gacy was charged with sexually assaulting a teenage boy

Starting point is 00:31:42 after luring him into his car at Chicago's Greyhound Bus Terminal before driving him home. The charge was dropped, though, when the boy failed to appear in court. then on June 22nd, Gacy was arrested in charge with aggravated sexual battery and reckless conduct. Gacy was said to have flashed a sheriff's badge to lure another teenage boy into his car before assaulting him. These charges were also dropped after the victim attempted to blackmail Gacy. If either of those stuck, they would have connected back to the jail term and you would assume he would have gone away again for a longer sentence. unfortunately neither of those charges stuck and somehow the Iowa Board of Parole weren't made aware of these incidents so in October of 1971 Gacy's parole ended they assumed that

Starting point is 00:32:31 he hadn't been up to any trouble they just there was no connection between the states I guess and then the records of his previous criminal convictions in Iowa were sealed at that point It was around this time but he started building up his PDM construction business while working part-time as a cook. Gacy Hyde, teenage boys and young men to be his labourers. According to journalist Tim Cahill, not the soccer root rate, I assume, or maybe.

Starting point is 00:33:03 But are you proud of me for recognising that name and going, wait, what? Tim Cahill. Timmy. Are you proud of that? Very proud. Thank you. I mean, a couple of weeks after,

Starting point is 00:33:11 I mean, I wasn't here for the World Cup episode. I imagine Timmy Cahill was mentioned quite a bit in the FIFA World Cup. Almost too much, to be honest. The greatest ever player. The greatest ever forehead to play the game. Just kept yammering on about Timmy Cahill. So anyway, according to journalist Tim Cahill,

Starting point is 00:33:28 in his book about Gacy, buried dreams inside the mind of a serial killer, Gacy would regularly proposition his workers for sex or insist on sexual faves in return for acts such as lending his vehicles, financial assistance or promotions. Yark. Yes. According to Wilkinson, he needed a place to store the lumber and paint cans and ladders he used for his business.

Starting point is 00:33:51 His mother's apartment was too small. So she sold the apartment and bought them a house at 8213 West Somerdale Avenue in Norwood Park, a suburb near the airport. And they moved there during August of 1971. It is believed that Gacy's first murder was in January of 1973. 16-year-old Timothy McCoy was traveling from Michigan to Nebraska with a stopover in Chicago. This is like a story that we told him just before. Gacy was sort of creeping around the Greyhound bus station where he met up with Timothy McCoy

Starting point is 00:34:31 and convinced him to come with him on a sightseeing tour of Chicago, which they did. Apparently they went around Chicago looking at the sites. Then he invited McCoy to stay at his house, promising he'd return him. to the bus depot in the morning in time for his next bus. According to Gacy, early in the morning, he worked to see McCoy in the doorway of his room with a kitchen knife in one hand. Gacy charged the boy and got control of the knife before stabbing him several times. Gacy then claims he went into his kitchen and saw that McCoy had set the table for two

Starting point is 00:35:05 and was preparing breakfast, seemingly having walked into Gacy's bedroom, absomitently carrying the kitchen knife. Oh, whoa. And that's according to Gaysi's. Oh my God. Because it does sound a bit like at first, you're expecting that story to be like, oh, he's just bullshitting or whatever.

Starting point is 00:35:21 Yes. Yeah, totally, yeah. That actually... It was self-defense. Oh, my God. The way he tells the story in the, when he sort of wrestled McCoy, he got cut with the knife

Starting point is 00:35:37 while he was trying to get it off him and he has a scar that matches the story. So I think it's believed that that is what, happened. Oh my God, that is horrendous. Was the mum still living in the house? I think she was normally away. Right. I don't know if she was away for this one, but these incidents would tend to happen when she was away visiting her sister or something like that. Yeah, right. Dacey buried McCoy's body under the house, under the crawl space, under his floor. And he later said that it was then that he realized that death was the ultimate thrill.

Starting point is 00:36:14 Oh, yuck. I feel like I'm going to say yuck a lot this episode. This might be the yuckest episode we've ever done, possibly. I mean, we've done some yuck ones. So he might have got to it anyway, but like is that poor boy accidentally walking in with a knife? Is that kind of what tipped him John Wengeese into like killing more people? That's, I mean, that's what it seems like.

Starting point is 00:36:36 Oh, man, what horrible. That chance situation just got wild. way worse. Yeah. I mean, yeah, who knows? Like, if that was inside him, you know, maybe it's inevitable. It's so hard to say, but, oh.

Starting point is 00:36:47 He was a sex offender over and over again. Yeah. Not that that necessarily leads to murder, but it just feels like it, you know, I don't know. I'm well outside my air of expertise. No, I majored in criminology, but... Hey, that's right. You're the one you should know.

Starting point is 00:37:04 Yeah, it's not quite the same, but it's some more psychology and stuff. Teach you the mind of a serial killer? No. On July 1st, 1972, Gacy married again. He married Carol Hoff, who Gacy knew as a friend of his sister in high school. Who did he marry Carol Hoff to? A bit fun there.

Starting point is 00:37:22 A bit of fun. Thanks, Dave. We'll find it wherever we can. Honestly, I'm clasping on to anything I can. I'm like, oh, this is not quite grim. He married Carol Hoff to his friend. Is that what I said? So he married Carol Hoff, who he knew as a friend of his sister in high school.

Starting point is 00:37:40 and Hoff was a divorcee with two young daughters. And the three of them moved into Gacy's house while his mum moved out into a rented apartment. According to Wilkinson, throughout the summer of 1972, Carol noticed a smell that seemed to come from something decaying in the crawl space. In a back room was a swarm of flies,

Starting point is 00:38:03 which she thought might be feeding on whatever was down there, maybe dead mice, she thought. Gacy said the odour was the result of a run-up off from a broken sewer pipe, and he spread lime in the crawl space to try and control it, but the odour got worse. Carol left on a trip, and when she got back, Gacy told her that he had poured concrete over a section of the crawl space to get rid of the smell. The flies disappeared, but the smell remained only fainter.

Starting point is 00:38:29 Sometimes she saw Gacy drop into the crawl space carrying a 50-pound bag of lime to spread over the damp ground. Nine days before their wedding, Gacy had been arrested again. somehow he must have kept this from her or at least convincing her that it was a mistake and that he was innocent. The police said he had told a boy that he was a deputy sheriff and ordered the boy into his car.

Starting point is 00:38:53 He forced the boy to go down on him and afterward the boy jumped out of the car and gase he tried to run him over. For some reason the charges were dropped. This just happens again and again. What? The cops are made aware of these things and they just don't quite go anywhere.

Starting point is 00:39:09 And I mean, I don't know for sure, but some of them, it just feels like the cops are going, yeah, likely story or whatever. But in their head, they're not connecting all of these things together because none of them go that far. So there's not a record. There's not a file on him where they could go, John Wayne Gasey, ooh, he's, this seems like his MO. Apart from, you know, Iowa, never quite gets in trouble. I'm not fully sure how he got away with it. Perhaps it was because he was seen as a respected member of his community and was apparently well liked by his neighbors. He hosted summer parties attended by hundreds of people. I think I read 400 people,

Starting point is 00:39:45 something like that. Whoa. And that included influential people like politicians. This is to his house where he's got a body under the floor. And as the, you know, each year, more and more bodies under the floor. According to Wilkinson in the summer of 1973, Gacy took over the garage of his house for his contracting business, telling his wife and stepdaughters to stay out of it. He was often gone, almost the night. And when Carol asked where he'd been, he said visiting stores and construction sites that he'd hoped to bid on and talking to people about work he might do. Late at night, he said he could see more places and have more conversations than he was able to during the day. Obviously, I'm just out in the middle of the night. Yeah, 4 a.m.

Starting point is 00:40:28 Meeting with a guy about a possible... I can do more at night, Carol. You don't get it. Construction. Oh my God, Carol. This is time to talk to people. It's 4 a.m. You don't get it. It's okay. Okay. You don't get it. get it, your tiny little woman brain can't wrap your head around it. But don't worry, okay? Just out here trying to earn some money.

Starting point is 00:40:50 You know, we can get your daughters some pretty little bows for their hair or some shit. And whatever you do, do not look in the crawl space. Anyway, got to go. Anyway, I love you by. Beneath the sink in the kitchen, she found some magazine featuring naked men. One of the pictures was of a young man who appeared to have blood on his body. Before they got married, Gacy told her that he was bisexual and apparently she thought he was joking. It was a weird scenario, but...

Starting point is 00:41:15 It's a funny joke. Yeah. So she was surprised to find this magazine with naked men. When she confronted him about seeing teenage boys entering their home via the garage in the early mornings and also finding men's wallets and IDs in the house, he angrily told her to mind her own business. Nothing to do with you why I have teenage boys coming in. So she's seeing teenage boys. going to the garage, doesn't see them leave, by the way, finding wallets around the house.

Starting point is 00:41:43 I think most of them do leave again. I think not all of them he's killing. Quite a few of them he does, though. Fucking hell. Carol. Are you blaming Carol? I'm not blaming Carol, but I'm saying like, you're finding some pretty solid evidence here, some big old red flags.

Starting point is 00:42:01 No, you're right. I mean, I was better to say, come one. How would she know? But yeah, it's not. You can't explain that away even in your head. No, I don't think you immediately jump to murder, but you do go, something's a bit. Are you stealing people's wallets?

Starting point is 00:42:17 Like, you know, you'd go to something like that. I thought he was joking. I thought it was a joke. It was funny. It was a funny bit. It was a very funny joke. We all ruled with laughter. He'd grab wallets and he'd spread them throughout the house.

Starting point is 00:42:32 Very funny. Bit of fun. He's a funny guy. Yeah. A bit postmodern for me. I don't know. I don't get it. If I don't laugh, he gets offended, so I just laugh.

Starting point is 00:42:44 I'm really into a more observational kind of humour, personally. He's a bit left field, but, you know, he's all right. Honestly, I laugh because I don't want to look silly. Yeah. According to Cahill, in 1973, Gacy traveled to Florida to view a newly purchased property with a teenage employee. On the first night, Gacy raped him in their hotel room. On returning to Chicago, the employee went to Gacy's house

Starting point is 00:43:14 and beat the shit out of him on his front lawn. To explain the beating, Gacy told Carol, he was attacked for refusing to pay the boy because he did a poor painting job. Oh, yeah, why did he beat me? Oh, it's because he's just bitter. I didn't pay him because he's not good at painting. Not because I raped him.

Starting point is 00:43:32 No, definitely not. In January of 1974, there was just a little bit of me like, yeah, fuck, you know, like, there's just a little bit of like. I was, yeah, I was absolutely thinking like, good. But yeah, I don't know. I mean, spending a week with John Wayne Gasey in my head has not been pleasant. No. If I'm acting weird, that's why.

Starting point is 00:43:52 But I look forward to whatever next week's topic is, which I'm sure it's going to be a lot more fun loving. Can I suggest tomorrow you just spend some time watching some Disney classics or something? Nothing bad happens in that run. Nothing bad happens in Bambi. Start with Bambi and see how you go. I'll start with Bambi. I mean, cute little dears running around. Cute little dears.

Starting point is 00:44:13 His best friend's a little rabbit named Thumper. That's cute. Just want to watch one thing without murder. Bambi has got to be the one. Yeah. And you're a vegetarian. You love animals. Yeah, too.

Starting point is 00:44:27 I love to spend a bit of time just watching them trotting about. Yes, watch it be free. Having a chat. It's not even really a story. It's just you just watch them walk, you know? Yeah. It's like a, what do you call it? One of those slow movies, what are they called it?

Starting point is 00:44:41 Slow TV. Just beautiful. It's well animated, you know? Great stuff. Oh, that's so good. I watched a side-by-side YouTube video last night. It's funny that it was at Disney. This was probably exactly why I did it subconsciously,

Starting point is 00:44:55 just a little quick cleanse. But it showed multiple of their movies. They just fully reused animations. So there's like a scene where Mogwai, I think, from the Jungle Book. Mogli. Mogwai is a band. Anyway, Mowgli walking up a little cliff and there's the exact same thing with Peter Robin or whatever from Winnie the Pooh Bear.

Starting point is 00:45:20 Oh, that's right. And there's a bunch of these scenes. There's dancers with a big blue bear in a couple of movies. He's just wearing a slightly different clothes. That was interesting. They were lazy back then. When they had to do everything frame for frame by hand. I don't blame him.

Starting point is 00:45:34 These days, though, I'm like, you bloody reuse anything. I will kill you, Disney. Nah, not at all. Just felt weird saying that on a serial killer episode. I won't. I won't do anything. No, no, no. I was going to say very mentally healthy.

Starting point is 00:45:53 That's not true. But not in a murdery way. More in a sad on the inside kind of way. You don't even have a cruel space, do you? No, I live in an apartment. Burying it in your neighbour's house. Yeah, my crawl space is occupied by a lovely couple in their dog. It's a nightmare.

Starting point is 00:46:13 You tell them, you live in a one-bedroom apartment now. Do not go in there. I'm just going to come down every week with a whole bunch of lime. What's your plan here, Bob, to thaw Walt, just so you can kill him again? Yeah, that's my plan. Thore him out, say, gidday, Walt, let me catch you up. It's 2021. A lot has happened.

Starting point is 00:46:33 then I'm going to spend a couple of hours with him just catching him up on stuff that's happened. Yeah. That's going to love Pixar. And then I'm going to kill him all over again. I assume he was killed in the first place. Double indemnity, can't kill a dead man. Can't kill dead man. Am I using that term right?

Starting point is 00:46:51 Double indemnity? Double jeopardy. Diplomatic immunity. You got one of these. You got one of them. Finally, right. Yeah, anyway, back to this fucking grim tale. In January of 1974, it is believed Gacy committed his second murder, strangling a teenage boy.

Starting point is 00:47:07 The identity of this victim is still unknown. There are multiple victims that are still basically John Doe's. They're unknown. Wow. That's awful. Yeah. In May of 1975, Gacy hired 15-year-old Anthony Antonucci. A couple of months later, Gacy went to Antonucci's home where they drank wine before Gacy

Starting point is 00:47:30 Pinned Antonucci on the floor and cuffed his hands behind his back. Luckily for Antonucci, he was able to free one arm while Gacy had left the room. Antenucci, this is something that Gacy might not have known, but Antonucci was a competitive high school wrestler. And when Gacy returned, Antonucci wrestled him to the floor, got the handcuffed keys off him and cuffed Gacy's hands behind his back. Whoa. Well done.

Starting point is 00:47:57 With his hands pinned behind his back, Gacy threatened Anton. Not coming from a strong position there, Gacy. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, I swear to God, I'll run at you. In a weird duck-like fashion because my hands are behind my back. And I'll look bloody silly while I do it. He threatened him for a bit. And then he started going, oh, I'll calm down.

Starting point is 00:48:21 Let me get the cuffs off me and I'll just leave. And that's what happened. He took the cuffs off. He left. Nothing seemed to come of that. Antonucci later quoted Gacy is telling him, not only are you the only one who got out of the cuffs, you got them on me.

Starting point is 00:48:38 It was like, what do you mean the only one who? Yeah, oh, yuck. On July 31st, 1975, 18-year-old John Butkovich disappeared. Butkovich was a labourer for Gacy. His car was found with the key still in the ignition and his jacket and wallet inside. Butkovich's father called Gacy to see if he knew his whereabouts. Gacy said he didn't know anything, but that he was sorry that his son had run away.

Starting point is 00:49:04 No one said, go away, Gacy. No one said that. He's wondering if he's with you now, like working on the site. What? Yeah. He's just like half an hour late home from work. We're just checking if he's all right. Oh, so sorry that he's run away.

Starting point is 00:49:21 I assume. You have to assume from what you've told me. Yeah, from that bit of information, I can only assume the worst. Police interviewed Gacy about it, who told them Bukovic had arrived at his house demanding overdue pay. Gacy was behind in payments to But Gawcich. But Gacy said they made a compromise and they left on good terms. Butkiewicz's parents didn't believe Gacy. They thought he was at the heart of the disappearance.

Starting point is 00:49:51 And despite begging the police to investigate him further, apparently they called the cops more than 100 times, asking them to investigate him further. They never really did. Much later, Gacy admitted he invited Bukovic into his car to drive to his home to settle his overdue wages. Once at his home,

Starting point is 00:50:11 Gacy gave Bukovic a drink, then somehow conned him into having his wrists cuffed behind his back. Apparently, this is a tactic Gacy used on multiple occasions. He'd show the victim how he could escape from the cuffs. Gacy had cuff himself, you know, and do it. You go, look, I escaped the cuffs. I can teach you how to do it now.

Starting point is 00:50:32 Cuffed them and then he, you know, did what he did. Yeah, assaulted them. So once cuffs, Gacy killed Butkiewicz by strangulation, then he took his body into the garage intending to later bury him under the house. But his wife, Carol and stepdaughters arrived home early. So he had to quickly bury Butkiewicz under the garage in a spot that was for a drain. Around this time, Gacy became involved with local politics. He offered the use of his employees to clean the local Democratic Party headquarters for free and was rewarded. From there,

Starting point is 00:51:11 he worked his way up before earning the title of precinct captain. Precinct Colonel is probably what he preferred to be called. They're like, mate, that title doesn't exist. No, no, no. I'm going to get my guys to clean your place. You're going to call me the Precinct Colonel, okay? I'm on the Colonel of Clean. Thank you so much. So I started thinking I'm like, I had this vague memory of Ted Bundy being involved in politics as well. So I looked that up and, yeah, about a year ago we did an episode on Ted Bundy

Starting point is 00:51:39 who was involved with the Republican Party. So it's like a small sample size, but there seems like there's some connection between psychotic killers and party politics. It's good to know it was bipartisan though. That's right, yeah. Gacy was also appointed as the director of Chicago's annual Polish Constitution Day Parade. He had Polish ancestry, and he would supervise the annual event from

Starting point is 00:52:05 1975 until 1978. Via his work with the parade in 1978, he met and had his photo taken with First Lady Rosalind Carter. By this stage, he'd killed many, many people. Wow. So Rosalind Carter was wife to the 39th President of American Jimmy Carter, which reminds me of the old adage. well Scooby-Doo can do-doo, but Jimmy Carter is smarter.

Starting point is 00:52:32 Well, said. Well-said. Thank you so much. It's crazy that he's like killed numerous people and just gotten away with it. And then there's so many instances where if they just, you know, probed a little harder, so many deaths could have been prevented. Yeah. They really just, you know, like a pretty good search of his house from one of these crimes.

Starting point is 00:52:56 Yeah. would have stopped so many more of them happening. I'm amazed at just how busy is. How does he do all this extra-crucurecular stuff, manage a business, work somewhere else, kill all these people up all night. How's he? Yeah, he doesn't sleep.

Starting point is 00:53:09 And it was kind of amazing that despite, like he was sentenced to 10 years in prison, despite this, he was given special clearance by the special service to be in that same room as Roslyn Carter. In the photo, he's wearing a badge, which shows that he was given the special clearance. So later when everything came out about him,

Starting point is 00:53:31 it was very embarrassing for the special service that they seemed to have given him that clearance. They deny that they gave him that clearance, but it seems like they did. Which is, yeah, amazing. It's like, what kind of system have you got going here? In October of 1975, Gacy blew up at his wife, Carol,

Starting point is 00:53:50 for failing to balance a checkbook correctly. After this, she asked for a divorce. This was, that was the final straw. Yeah, I was going to say, it's because that sounds like a final straw and not, you know, a one and done kind of argument. By March, 1976, the divorce was finalised and Carol and her daughters had moved out. I'm so glad that it seems like the daughters, as far as I know, when I heard, when I was reading, they're moving in.

Starting point is 00:54:15 I'm like, oh, fuck. Yeah, I had that thought too. I was like, no. I don't know why it's different to that. It's like, obviously, all of the victims, but anyone's who's who, Any of the survivors, the one that fucking beat him up and all that I'm like, oh, yes. Every survivor is something because it is just a lot of dark and not a lot of positive moments in this. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:54:37 Not a lot of wins. In 1975, it was reported to Chicago police that a man named John would regularly cruise the area in his car picking up young men. And this is a time when he would sort of openly describe it as his cruising period. They figured out this man was Gacy. The cops figured this out and staked out his home. According to the Chicago Tribune, officers observed dozens of young men going in and out of Gacy's house in unincorporated Norwood Park Township. They stopped many of them for questioning, but none said anything against Gacy.

Starting point is 00:55:12 Around this time, Gacy also began his life as a clown, joining the Jolly Joker Clown Club. He created two different clown personas. Pogo, a happy clown, and Patches, a more serious clown. Oh, my God. He's just taking on another hobby. It is strange to enter a clown phase of your life. Yeah, that's a midlife crisis. I mean, I did it to pay bills during uni when I was doing it at kids' parties,

Starting point is 00:55:40 but to just decide, my wife left me, yep, I'm going to be a clown now. Not a big clown. Yeah, that's the one way to get back on Patches now. The Colonel's dead. He was around your age at this point, Dave. So, yeah. I was really packed a lot into her. He was 19 years old.

Starting point is 00:55:59 Short life. Geez, you look, you look horrible for 19 days. Your current age, you dumb shit. So when I was clowning, I was 19, let me just say. Okay, and you're saying you will never, ever, ever, ever go back to clowning? Absolutely never. Never say never, Dave. Things could go badly for you, Dave.

Starting point is 00:56:17 Oh, God, don't say that. Are you saying if we ever see you back in the clowning game that it's a bit of a cry for help? A huge cry for help. I mean, it would have been a cry for help anyway, but especially after this episode. It is a honk for help. Stop it. As these clown personas, he performed at hospitals, parades and store openings, often entertaining kids, which is wild as he was a convicted child molester.

Starting point is 00:56:42 Yeah. I mean, we've talked about this in previous serial killer episodes, I think. Back in the day, the states didn't communicate that well with their crime database and that sort of stuff. Yeah, I guess it's less digitised probably, right? Yeah, so just things, obviously you move states and you could start a new life, even though you probably shouldn't be allowed to be performing for kids, even if he'd been living on the straight and narrow since, which obviously he has not been doing.

Starting point is 00:57:08 I don't know if you've seen photos of him. He looked super creepy as Pogo. He had to painted his face white, then with big red lips, which kind of look exactly like the Batman symbol. And then his eyes were like painted big blue. blue splodges around his eyes. He later wrote an explanation for the name Pogo. He breaks it down.

Starting point is 00:57:30 Do you want to hear his explanation? Absolutely. Yes. This is quoting Gacy. The reason was based on one, that I was Polish. So that's where the Po came from, for Poles. And since I was on the go all the time, I took Go and I added it to it. That's how I came up with the name Pogo.

Starting point is 00:57:49 That's a genius. A bit of an insight into the model. there. When Gacy was eventually caught, the media picked up on the clowning stuff, which was where he got the nickname the Killer Clown, obviously. According to Linda Rodriguez McRobbie, writing for the Smithsonian, this media coverage of Gacy as the Killer Clown fueled America's already growing fears of stranger danger and sexual preditation on children and made clowns a real objective suspicion. Jess has just shown the picture there. Listen, as if you're probably looking at I also was looking it up and he looks terrifying.

Starting point is 00:58:25 Yeah. So gross. That is not a fun clown. No. But yeah, maybe, I don't know. Some say because of him, you know, that's now the idea of a scary clown has in part been inspired by him. But McRobbie writes that people have been frightened by clowns for centuries apparently.

Starting point is 00:58:44 So, because I, someone, one of the people who suggested this topic sort of in their little blurb they wrote for it, suggested that he was the one. who started people fearing clowns. And I'm like, is that true? Well, clowns sort of happy things until then. But apparently people being afraid of clowns is a long-term thing. Right. It's also rumoured but unconfirmed that Gacy helped inspire Stephen King's clown character Pennywise from It.

Starting point is 00:59:08 Oh. According to screen rant, while there is some debate on whether Gacy truly influenced the creation of Pennywise, the two are eerily similar as both dress as clowns and target children. I can't argue with that. Early similar. Early similar. The two clowns dress as clowns. I mean, you can say the same thing about Ronald but he just targets children with food.

Starting point is 00:59:30 Yeah. Earily similar. With chitties. With chippies. I mean, he is the colonel as well. On the 26th of July 1976, Gacy picked up an 18-year-old hitchhiker named David Cram. Cram started working for PDM immediately, I think that night, and moved into Gacy's home.

Starting point is 00:59:50 following month. What? The following day, they drank to celebrate Cramm's 19th birthday, and Gacy dressed up as Pogo before tricking Cram into putting on the handcuffs, before telling Cram he was going to rape him. According to Cahill, though, Cram was able to kick Gacy in his stupid fucking face and freed himself from the handcuffs. I had the stupid fucking face. Cahill didn't say it like that.

Starting point is 01:00:14 Sorry about that. Got away from myself there. Cram remained living at Gacey's house for another month. or so before quitting PDM and moving out. Yeah, amazing, right? Why do you stay there? Yeah, I mean, it's hard to know. Gacy later suggested that he was an accomplice for some of these murders, but...

Starting point is 01:00:34 I don't trust a lot of what Gacy says, yeah. No. In his place, after he moved out, Michael Rossi moved in, and he lived there for the best part of a year. Apparently, sometimes they'd go and entertain as the two. clowns, Rossi would play patches while Gacy played Pogo. In March of 1977, 27-year-old Jeff Rignall reported that Gacy had enticed him into his car by offering him marijuana before using chloroform to knock him unconscious before driving him to his house, handcuffing and sexually attacking him before letting him go.

Starting point is 01:01:11 According to the Chicago Tribune, a $3,000 civil suit was settled in this case. Gacy was also charged with battery a misdemeanor. So that was the outstanding battery charge, I think, that the cops would later find when investigating peace. Right. But this went to court, was settled. But none of this seems to be, you know, making a dent in his or a dent in his public persona. It's like it's just no one's knowing about it or something. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:01:39 That's wild, isn't it? Yeah, it's don't like this kind of hectic double life where you are an evil monster. Yeah. Seemingly every night. and then a respected businessman during the day. Crazy. This is also from the Tribune. On December the 31st of 1977,

Starting point is 01:01:57 Gacy was arrested by Chicago police after a 19-year-old teen from the north side said the man kidnapped him at gunpoint and forced him to engage in sexual acts. The police report shows that when he was taken into custody, Gacy admitted to engaging in the acts with the youth and their brutality, but denied the teen was an unwilling participant. an assistant state's attorney decided not to prosecute Gacy. Why? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:02:25 There's just so many, like, I'm not even going to mention half the cases and accusations and whatnot. And it just never sticks. I don't know if it's because they didn't see these victims as being as from good families or whatever. I'm not sure if that's what it is. I imagine each case is more complicated than that. but they just don't have the big picture because he keeps getting away with them just in each case there's no big picture to be seen somehow.

Starting point is 01:02:56 So by this point you must have just been feeling like uncatchable basically. But of course, as we know, he was caught. And I'd go back to the initial story we're talking about. Dasey's last victim, Robert Pist. So it's in part perhaps because this was the first time a police officer seemed to take the claims about Gacy really seriously. This is lucky that this cop was like, no, I think there's more to look into, and he jumped right on the case.

Starting point is 01:03:28 Gacy apparently drove peace to his home under the guise of offering him a job. So he's at the pharmacy. Gacy's loudly saying, yeah, I'd pay five bucks an hour for work for me. So he's like, oh, I want to talk to him about the job. He went to talk to him while his mum's waiting. It's such a fucking heartbreaking story. They all are. He gets in the car with Gacy Gershey's house.

Starting point is 01:03:51 He's tricked into putting on the handcuffs and he's raped and murdered. But this time they're onto him. The cops are on him. The police had placed Gacy under around the clock surveillance. They also traced the high school ring retrieved from his home to John Chick, Z-Y-C, a teenager who'd been missing for two years. So that's another one of his victims. That same day, on December 15,

Starting point is 01:04:16 a Gacy employee told police that two former employees had also disappeared. They're starting to go, holy shit. Yeah, wow. Now they're finally bringing it all together. Gacy notices the police surveillance straight away, but he kind of befriends him. He goes out when he's leaving home, he sees him in the car, he goes over and he goes,

Starting point is 01:04:34 hey, guys, apparently he started saying, hey, this is where I'm heading. I don't want to lose me in traffic or whatever. So, you know, he's trying to be matesy with him. He also invited them into a cafe to eat with him at one point, and they accept. They do this multiple times. Eat dinner with him. Eat breakfast with him.

Starting point is 01:04:53 What? The officers later referred to him as a blowhard, and they just let him talk. He brags about his political connections, his business clout. And at one point, when talking about his Pogo, the clown alter ego, he says, you know, clowns can get away with murder. Oh. Says that to cops. Who were following him on the suspicion of exactly that.

Starting point is 01:05:19 I guess you could say I've killed before and I'll kill again. Anyway, sorry what? I guess you could say, look under my cross face. I dare you. Well, I mean, maybe, because at first I was like these fucking cops, but I suppose there is sort of an element for someone like this is just let them talk and they will slip up eventually. Yeah, I think that's kind of what they were thinking.

Starting point is 01:05:40 Wow. Our job is to keep an eye on him. There's no better way to keep an eye on him than sit in a booth with him. Yeah. And then the thing, see what we can learn, let him talk and see what we're here. Yeah, pick up some clues. I think I had this exact same initial thought. I'm like, don't get caught.

Starting point is 01:05:56 What are you doing? Don't become, but yeah. On December the 19th, so this leads to a few days later on the 19th, Gacy inviting them in to his house for breakfast. He makes them breakfast in his own house. the house where bodies are buried under the floor. Jesus, the audacity. Do you think that's like arrogance, is that stupidity?

Starting point is 01:06:18 Or do you think that's like his disconnect from reality? Like, I think I can beat this lie detector test. Yeah, I guess it's hard to know. Yeah, all of those sound believable to me. One of the officers excuses themselves to use the bathroom, maybe have a little snoop. When they go in, the central heating turns on, and via the vent they could smell something awful,

Starting point is 01:06:42 which they thought was possibly rotting flesh. That same day, Gacy's lawyers file a $750,000 civil rights suit against his planes and its police department, charging that officers are harassing their client with illegal searches and seizures and destroying his reputation with their investigation. Pretty bold counterclaim. Oh yeah, you think our clients are murderer. Well, you've been harassing him by accepting his invitation to come in for breakfast,

Starting point is 01:07:15 and we will not stand for it. While under police surveillance on December 21st, so I think there are two pairs of cops are working 12-hour shifts each. I think they're watching him 24 hours a day. This is wild that he does this, but on the 21st of December, Gacy is seen handing a package containing marijuana to a gas station clerk. while he knows he's under surveillance, I think, and the police uses this as an excuse to arrest him.

Starting point is 01:07:42 Probably the kind of thing that maybe they wouldn't, you know, they wouldn't be that worried about, especially in the scheme of things. Yeah. But this just gives him a chance to bring him in. And with Gacy in custody, does Plains Police and Cook County Sheriff's Office investigators obtain a warrant and again enter Gacy's one-story ranch-style house?

Starting point is 01:08:02 Police accuse Gacy of holding peace there against his will. They're still hoping to find him alive, I think. but I don't know how hopeful they are because they threaten to tear up the floor to find the teen's body but Gacy denies peace disease he's not there. I'll do another lie detector. He does though confess,

Starting point is 01:08:20 it feels like him trying to negotiate or something. He does confess to killing another man saying that he was forced to kill him in self-defense and he buried him under the concrete floor in his garage. I think the man he was referring to was John Butkovich who was there was no way you could argue it was self-defense. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:08:39 In my head, I'm assuming, because he was buried in the garage, most of the other bodies were buried under the floor, he thought, I'll admit to this one, they'll find that body and that'll keep them away from the other. Yeah, because they'll be like, he's clearly telling us the truth because he just admitted to having a body there, so we won't bother looking anywhere else.

Starting point is 01:08:58 Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm guessing that was his logic. He leads investigators to the garage and with a can of spray paint, mark the floor where the body is buried. Police also discover a trapdoor in the house's crawl space, though, where they find parts of at least three bodies. So the jig is up at this point. On December 22, in a rambling verbal statement lasting several hours,

Starting point is 01:09:22 Gacy tells police he has killed 32 young men after having sexual relations with them. He talks of himself in the third person, saying the slangs and sex acts were committed by Jack or John. He says he buried the bodies of 27 victims on his own. his property. It turned out to be 29 that were discovered. And possibly he just lost count, which is... Fucked. How do they fit? Yeah, we buried most of them in the crawl space. I think they were really buried pretty close together.

Starting point is 01:09:55 The cops said when they uncovered one body in that grave, there was part of another body, like right, you know, head to foot sort of thing. So fucking grim. Awful. Five other other. bodies, four of which would be found by police, including that of peace, were thrown into rivers south of Chicago. Gacy let them know.

Starting point is 01:10:17 He drew a diagram showing where the bodies are buried under his house. The reason Gacy arrived late to the police station on that initial night, the night piece went missing when he was covered in mud. You know, he said he'd be half an hour. He ended up being like four or five hours late. Yeah. The reason for that is he'd come straight from disposed. peace body in the river and then got in a minor car accident where his vehicle had slid off an

Starting point is 01:10:43 ice-covered road and had to be towed. So I mean, even the audacity of that, he's come with the dirt from disposing of one of his murder victims. Gacy was brought to trial on February 6, 1980, charged with 33 murders. It was tried in Cook County, Illinois before Judge Lewis Garipo. There could be a whole extra episode on this trial, but I'll summarize it. The defence argued he was not guilty due to insanity. They claimed he had

Starting point is 01:11:17 multiple personality disorder with four personalities, the hardworking civic-minded contractor, the clown, the politician, and a policeman called Jack Hanley whom he referred to as Bad Jack. So when he was talking about it in the third person, that was what he was saying. He was the one who did

Starting point is 01:11:35 the murdering. Yeah, not me. When Gacy had confessed to police, he claimed to be confessing on behalf of Jack, his lawyers presented Gacy as a Jekyllyn Hyde character, while the prosecutors presented the case that he was sane and in full control of his actions. And they gave a lot of instances of how it was premeditated. You know, he was a lot of, you know, they're talking about how he would be covering the smell and all these sorts of things that were kind of more logical things. Yeah. covering up his crimes.

Starting point is 01:12:08 Many of his surviving victims either testified or attempted to testify, with many breaking down, one became physically ill when trying to talk. Some of them just, they really wanted to, but just couldn't talk and had to excuse themselves. Oh, my God. The defence tried to suggest that all 33 deaths were caused by accidental erotic asphyxiation. Oh, my God. I mean, come on. If you're a lawyer, that's coming out of your mouth, are you like, God, what am I saying?

Starting point is 01:12:35 What is wrong with me? Yeah. They're all accidents. Sorry. I mean, accidents happen. Cook County Medical Examiner, Robert Stein, called this highly improbable. I think that's being generous. Yeah, you're right, Dave.

Starting point is 01:12:48 Imagine, imagine fucking, how do you sleep at night, at night as that lawyer? To be like, they all, it was all just an accident, you know, being a bit sexy, they want to get asphyxiation. And yeah, it just happened. in 33 times. So unlucky. Can you believe it? So unlucky. So tragic and unlucky. Oh, fuck you.

Starting point is 01:13:12 After a relatively lengthy trial, the jury deliberated for less than two hours before deciding Gacy was guilty of all 33 charges of murder, as well as sexual assault and taking indecent liberties with a child. At the time, his conviction for 33 murders was the most any person in US history had been convicted of. Gacy was sentenced to death for each murder. the death penalty had only come into effect the previous year in Illinois. Wow.

Starting point is 01:13:40 Yeah. So he was sentenced to 33 deaths. 33 deaths, yeah. So if he'd been caught like 18 months earlier, he would have just gone to jail probably forever. Yes, for 33 life. So getting away with it kind of for a bit longer cost him his life. Yeah, that's interesting.

Starting point is 01:13:57 The irony of him being like, this doesn't undo any of the wrongs that happened. You're just murdering me. I don't know if you know, I'm not a pro-death guy necessarily or anything, but it's wild to try and take the high horse there as a... Yeah, and try to be critical of murder. I really thought you were going to say, this doesn't undo any of the good stuff I did at kids' parties.

Starting point is 01:14:19 I was a great clown, really good at the Democratic, you know, with the party. So I've done good as well. Let's not forget that. I thought he's going to try and go that down there. We helped clean that headquarters for free. I've heard that it's the cleanest it's ever been, so. Let's not forget. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:14:35 While on death road, Gacy filed multiple appeals with none of them being successful. He suggested some of his employees had committed the bulk of the murders. Sometimes he was saying he didn't commit any of the murders. Sometimes he said, I might have committed a few of them, but most of them, and I didn't even know about them, they, you know, they had keys to my house. It's hard to know. But there are a lot of people who say that the idea he had accomplices holds a lot of weight, and some suggest that he couldn't have possibly committed all the murders alone.

Starting point is 01:15:03 Some of the timings of them was like, he was in the state then. He must have had someone work with him, but that was obviously never proven. While on death row, Gacy took up painting. Maybe he'd already painted, but he did a lot of painting on death row with many of the paintings being self-portraits of him as a clown. Some of these paintings have sold from between $200 and $20,000. So he was on death row for quite a few years until 1994, when on May the 10th at 1258 a.m. He was executed via lethal injection. There was a bit of a problem. The

Starting point is 01:15:41 injection, the fluid in the injection collagulated. I'm not saying that right. But it's sort of, you know, it jellified. So it couldn't go in and they had to delay it. They pulled the curtains from the people viewing it, trying to figure it out, sort of drew it out a bit. One of the prosecutors, I think, said, later commented on it saying, had nothing on the way he killed people, You know, like, but anyway. Fuck. It is still so incredibly baffling as well that people would view a death. Yeah, there's like a little theater gallery.

Starting point is 01:16:14 That's cut. That's fucked up. Oh, and that theater curtain. Like someone's there on the side pulling it up. Oh, pulling it back to. What, is there a fucking interval or something? Like, do they sell snacks? It's fucked.

Starting point is 01:16:26 I guess it's, yeah, I guess it's for the families who is meant to be in there, I guess. Yeah, it's all, I mean, it's just how do you, make peace with it. You know, it's not, the family's, oh, it's all obviously a real mess. There's no obvious answers with any of this stuff. Yeah, true. His final meal was, or included a bucket of KFC chicken. And his final words were reportedly, kiss my ass.

Starting point is 01:16:52 Oh, charming. He never really, what do you say? He never really showed remorse. Yuck. For the murders. There was an estimate. made a crowd of a thousand people gathered outside, most of whom were celebrating his execution. There were some people there to sort of protest the death penalty as an idea, because I guess

Starting point is 01:17:12 it was still brand new. And it's the thing, if you're, if you're anti-death penalty, you've got to be anti-death penalty across the board, I guess. Yeah, that's right, yeah. But that, I imagine that would have been, that's really showing that you believe in it if you're going to John Wayne Gasey's execution to protest. I'd probably be chanting a little quieter that day. No, don't. Don't kill him. No. Hey, no, every life, very precious tone. The week of his execution, a couple of businessmen bought various of his artworks at an auction. Apparently, the auction, there was all sorts of things up for sale, including furniture and stuff. And when they started bidding on Gacy's thing that got a real weird vibe in the room,

Starting point is 01:18:01 they're like, well, fuck are you doing? Yeah. And then they quickly were like, no, no, no, it's, this isn't like that. We're not fans or anything. Because the reason they did that is because they held a public bonfire the month after his execution, where relatives of seven of Gacy's victims were among the 100 people present.

Starting point is 01:18:21 According to Milica Marino of Chicago, whose brother Michael Marino was killed by Gacy, she said, I wish it was gasey, but it's a piece of him. It doesn't bring my brother back, but it makes it better. Wow. And a sister of another victim, Kari Kahoon, said the bonfire was good therapy for herself and other victims' relatives.

Starting point is 01:18:49 A bit of catharsis, yeah. Yeah, yeah, so. Wow. That's the end of my report. Any questions? I feel like I've got a lot more info in my head than I'm willing to, let out if... I have a question.

Starting point is 01:19:02 Yes. You okay, bud? Yeah, I'm all right. I'm all right. I mean, when you research something like this, I definitely, like I understand the fascination with it. And there are times where it is, you know, it is interesting. Some of the documentaries I watched were, you know, well put together.

Starting point is 01:19:19 Yeah. There was one recent series. Might have even been from this year on NBC's Peacock Streaming Service, which had a lot of not seen before interview footage with Gacy and it's just so weird seeing a monster who's just this sort of sort of mild-mannered plot. Like you can sort of tell, but I mean it's the knowledge you're bringing to him. But it's just sort of, it's very strange to watch him.

Starting point is 01:19:48 Yeah. Yeah. They can be pretty weird topics to live in for a week or so. How do you reckon those people that interview him for like, you know, hours on end and then write books and think about it for like three years straight. How do they cope? How do they cope? Yeah.

Starting point is 01:20:04 Oh, yeah. No, I was thinking about that too. This Peacock series has the guy is also a talking head, the guy who went in and interviewed him. He sort of, they communicated via letters. He was a journalist and then eventually went in and he sat with him for like six plus hours at a time. And, yeah, he said stuff like he, there were times.

Starting point is 01:20:29 Oh no, was it him? No, no, that was the New Yorker article I was very. It was another, that journalist also sat with him a lot. And he was saying at some points it felt like time was standing still. He was just talking and talking. So at different times, the journalist took his watch off so that he didn't see how slowly time was moving. Right.

Starting point is 01:20:51 Wow. I'm so bored listening to this serial killer. I mean, that's the kind of thing that would probably, heard him more than anything else. Yeah. A ya ya. Honestly, gay, see you. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Starting point is 01:21:05 Okay, you think you're interesting. Yeah, I've heard this bit. I heard this bit. Yeah. So, sorry, Po is from Polish. Go, I'm always on the go. Yeah. Yeah, very cool.

Starting point is 01:21:17 Yeah, that is a good story. It's incredible. I guess my clown name would be like, I'm Irish and fairly sedentary. So. Ar said. Ar said. More of an adult clown.

Starting point is 01:21:39 Ar said the clown. Yeah, beautiful name for a boy or a girl. Thank you. Thank you. All right. Well, I think then that brings us, maybe we've kicked off block. It's happened.

Starting point is 01:21:51 We've done it. It's happened, baby. We're here. We're doing it. Thanks for getting through with me. I know these episodes definitely divide listeners. Obviously, they're very popular, but there are also some people who find them pretty tough.

Starting point is 01:22:02 I imagine a lot of them wouldn't have even listened to it. But thanks for listening. And there is no one can deny that that is definitely a blockbuster topic. A lot of people want us to talk about one of the most famous serial killers of the 20th century. It's a block topic. Yeah. For better or worse? Seen it in the hat for a long time.

Starting point is 01:22:20 And, you know, you flick through the hat to put topics up for a vote, you know, just a normal weekly vote. And I've definitely clicked on a couple of times. times, we're like, no, I don't want to do that. Not feeling strong enough for that one at the moment. Anyway, that brings us to everyone's favorite section of the show where we thank a lot of our great supporters, the people who keep this show running, who support us at patreon.com slash dogo on pod or dogoonpod.com. The first people we like to thank are on the Sydney-Shineberg level.

Starting point is 01:22:52 If you're on this level, you can give us a fact, a quote, or a question. This section has little jingle that goes something like this. Fact quote or question I always remembers the ding Now to get involved in this You sign up on the Sydney-Schenberg level And you get to give us a fact or quote or question You also get to give yourself a title

Starting point is 01:23:11 This week Firstly I'd love to Read out the question from Matthew Bohr And Matthew Boar has given himself the title of That guy you may have passed driving in his car Laughing uncontrollably At a Dougal on Rift My favorite thing to hear about, do you go on listeners,

Starting point is 01:23:35 is people laughing on the train, in the car, in the office, at the gym. Love it. So that's good to know, Matthew, that you can be seen that way. Matthew's question is, without notice, after seeing Dave ride a mechanical clam for money on an ad. It took me, I had to get right to the ad part where I'm like, Hang on, what? What?

Starting point is 01:23:59 Is this a dream you had? Or a nightmare, I should say. Come on, that's a dream, come on. Does this ad run? This would only run in Australia. I believe so. It's an H&R block ad, so it's an accounting ad. Sorry, Jess.

Starting point is 01:24:11 H&R blocked a very appropriate. Very good. They should have sponsored this episode. They really should. Is that on brand for them? Yeah. Killer clown? Yeah, that's why they passed.

Starting point is 01:24:24 So Matthew writes, UpSink Dave, write a mechanical clam for money on an ad, I thought of how fun it would be to have you three on a game show or different media format. If not limited by a podcast format, what would be something you would want to try doing as the Dugan crew, either as a main episode, Patreon bonus or video, etc. Some fun things that come to mind for me, a Hot Ones style episode or a Taskmasters style episode. I don't know what Hot Ones is, but I know Taskmasters, that would be a lot of fun. Hot Ones is like a very popular YouTube show where celebrities are interviewed whilst eating hot wings.

Starting point is 01:25:02 And they're really, really hot. I have heard of that. Yeah, great. That sounds fun. Yeah, I'd be up for either of those things. Doesn't sound fun for my asshole. Yeah, they don't film that bit amazingly. Which I think is a mistake.

Starting point is 01:25:18 That's, yeah, that's where we will be different. We'll have the toilet cam. There'll be no coward. in the edit room. Yeah, no, that's great. I mean, we've been meeting on and off about the next video project we're going to do, which is now overdue, but we've got a few things in the works. We're talking to some people about getting some funding together to make some things happen.

Starting point is 01:25:46 Yeah. I think we add to the pile all the time. Last time we spoke, I added a new idea in there. But I reckon at the moment we've got about eight different working options. Any ones that are developed enough to mention Dave or Jess? Don't think quite. Yeah, it's hard things being pushed back, obviously, with lockdown 6.0 going forever.

Starting point is 01:26:09 Yeah, maybe we'll keep them under wraps for now, but any other ideas to just pop to your head? I think a taskmaster's style show would be a lot of fun. That'd be really fun. I thought it'd be fun to do a series where we take it in terms to take the other two out to partake in a hobby or one of our interests. I think my original idea would Dave would take Jess and I out

Starting point is 01:26:31 clothes shopping. Because Dave loves to shop. Dave loves to shop. He's a fashionist. He's a fashionist. You know me. Fashion Capital. Yeah, I think that'd be a lot of fun.

Starting point is 01:26:41 I thought maybe I could take you guys out to play some golf or something. Or, yeah, something that we would all, it'd have to be something that you'd feel a bit silly doing, I suppose. I guess I could take you guys to get our nails done. I'd love that. Oh, I'd love that. Stop me biting them. Get a petty.

Starting point is 01:26:59 Mani Petty? You'd love a manny petty. I don't know the budget that we need for this, but I'd love to do like a, I'd love to just try it because it looks fun. Do one of those wipeout style obstacle courses or like a ninja warrior type thing but for normal people. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:27:14 I feel like I, here's the thing, I feel like I would either be incredible at that or terrible, nowhere in between. I can definitely picture possibly all three of us falling at the very first hurdle. Yeah, oh, big time. So there's this huge obstacle course, so we all fall in the water, half a meter into the course.

Starting point is 01:27:36 Would you be a bit of fun. That'd be so fun. It took the crew four days to set it up and we both lost eight seconds. I have always wanted to try trapeze. Oh, you've said that before, yeah. I would 100% do that. Don't know if I have the core strength to get my legs up and around the butt, but I can work on that.

Starting point is 01:27:55 Yeah. If we ever get to New Zealand, which we were kind of thinking we were going to have done earlier this year at one point, which is funny to think about now. But maybe next year, they've got some of the most beautiful bungee jumps in the world. Could do one of them together maybe. I would happily hold your bag while you did that. Yeah, I'd have to really think about it. Probably vomit a couple of times and then go. Well, thanks so much for that question, Matthew Bohr.

Starting point is 01:28:24 I think that was a good one. And that's definitely something we think about a lot. So hopefully we will have more of that sort of stuff for you to actually see maybe next year. But a bunch of fires in the oven. Is that what you say? Sticks in the fire. Irons in the fire. Sticks in the fire.

Starting point is 01:28:39 That's it. A lot of buns in the oven. Jacob Lane, who's called himself, you can call me Ray or you can call me Ray, Jay. Or you can call me Ray Jay. She's a great Gabbo reference. Is Gabbo a real thing, Dave? He always assumed it wasn't, but I have a vague feeling that maybe it is based on something.

Starting point is 01:29:02 I think that you can call me Ray thing is based on something too. Oh, that's what's a real thing. You can call me Ray. Or you can call me Jay. That's what I'm thinking of. Gabbo is not real. Gabbo, a living mannequin. So Jacob has got a fact for us,

Starting point is 01:29:20 which is, Jacob, if you don't know, is our resident Simpsons expert. Jacob Wright's not a Simpsons-related fact, I'm afraid, but it does combine two of my other loves. Did you know that according to Wikipedia.org, Queen invented thrash metal, sort of. It says that among the earliest songs credited with influencing future thrash musicians was Queen's Stone Cold Crazy from their album Shear Heart Attack.

Starting point is 01:29:50 Great album title. That's not my wish. That's Jacob. She's Jacobsworth, and I agree. Which was recorded and released in 1974. The song was described as being thrash metal before the term had been invented. That's interesting.

Starting point is 01:30:02 I think the first time I heard that song was Metallica covering it and that, I think, on their album of songs and artists that influenced them in the early days. So that makes a lot of sense. There you go. You're a big queen fan, aren't you, Bopper? Yeah, I love a bit of queen. Thank you so much for that fact.

Starting point is 01:30:21 Jacob. I've got Jacob on the mind. We are talking Simpsons. I've just looked up Simpsons, their wiki page on Behind the Laugh on Gabbo. He gets his name apparently from the title character of the 1929 film The Great Gabbo. In the film, Gabbo is a ventriloquist who operates a dummy named Otto. So there's some connection to a real, at least ventriloquist operator. And can you look up, you can call me Ray, you can call me Jay Bit?

Starting point is 01:30:45 Because I know people are yelling at their iPods around now. The next one comes from Ben Oliver, who, who's given himself the title of overprotective detective inspector. Then he says in brackets, I'm not really a detective inspector. I just think it sounds fun. It does. You're right. It does.

Starting point is 01:31:05 D.I. Ben, you are bang on. And Ben's asking us a question, which is, apologies if this has been asked before. Please, never apologize to us, Ben. Never apologize. Never apologize to us. You never have to apologize. Take that word out of your vocab when you're talking to us, please.

Starting point is 01:31:21 is Ben. Okay. Ben writes or asks, do any of you have a favorite book that you go back to and read over and over again? I read The Shining at least once a year and I also read Slaughterhouse Five at least once a year. Oh, that's interesting. I, um, I've read Sauter House Five a few times. And, uh, yeah, I quite like the works of Kurt Vonnegut. I'm not saying that right, Dave? Oh, yeah. I only have a seen it written it down. Voonagat. Voonagat. I haven't read it for quite some time.

Starting point is 01:32:00 Shit, now I can't remember. The ones I read heaps as a teen, I always went back to, was looking for Alibrandi and on the Jellico Road, both by the same author, Melina Marchetta. Yeah, read those a lot. But I haven't had a book that's really grabbed me in the same way, in that I keep going back to it. Does that make sense?

Starting point is 01:32:24 But those two, on the Jellico Road, it's like a young adult fiction kind of book, but it's got lots of good twists and it's written, it's structured in a really cool way. So I always liked reading that one. Love that. I've never read any of her books, but I mean, I haven't even seen the film. It was quite a big film in Australia looking for our movie. Yeah, it was, yeah. Big book, big film.

Starting point is 01:32:47 Yeah, I think it was maybe after my time. But I think it was a big school book as well. Yeah. On the curriculum. But somehow I didn't do that one during school. Yeah, I'm just, I just had to Google the name of it. It's funny, a book that I've read, well, I'd say read, listen to you three times. But I didn't even know the name of it.

Starting point is 01:33:08 It's Bill Bryson's Made in America, which is just a real fascinating book about how the American English evolved. and how, you know, American English invented so many commonly used words that, yeah, just find it really fascinating. It's just a nice little history book to listen to. Yeah. Dave, I imagine reading so many books as you do for bookcheat, you probably don't have a lot of time to go back and reread. That's right. I can never go back.

Starting point is 01:33:42 Sorry. I've got to keep looking forwards to the next episode. Always looking ahead. Yeah, fair point. Did you ever have one before? Because, I mean, the point you started, the bookcheat podcast. If listeners don't know, Dave does a podcast about classic novels where he reads them so you don't have to. It's pretty much this show, but instead of a historical report, it's like a book report.

Starting point is 01:34:08 Yeah, and I did start it, I think you're alluding to you because I stopped reading for a while, and this really makes me, makes me read. It's worked. It's worked, everyone. Yeah. So, yeah, you did, there was no books back in the day. Oh, I've read Fear and Lothy in Las Vegas a few times. Love that when I was in high school.

Starting point is 01:34:27 That's probably the one I've read the most, I think. That book about Johnny Depp. Yeah, that's right, yeah. The Johnny Depp autobiography. Do you just think of another one, Boba? Yeah, I'm pretty sure I read the Hunger Games series a couple of times at least. I've seen all of those films. Does that count?

Starting point is 01:34:41 No. Oh, I would have said. Was that the question? Was that the question? Yes. Was that the question? What's a movie you've watched a heap of times? No, sir.

Starting point is 01:34:48 No, you fucking dog. Now, the movie I've watched the most times would be Casino Royale, and I just watched it again the other day. The old one or the newer one? New one. Is that the one where there was like it was Bond but as a comedy? Yeah, it's like a parody of Bond, which is always funny to me because it's like, well, I mean, it's kind of a piss to take a little bit too anyway, isn't it?

Starting point is 01:35:09 Right. It's like exploding pens and all sorts of stuff. And the final fact quote of question for this week comes from David Milofsky, aka a place to hang your cape, an English, or American in England, isn't he? And we've met him a few times when we've been over there.

Starting point is 01:35:26 Lovely fella. He's got a website place to hang your cape, which is exactly what it sounds like. If you've got a cape, that's a place to hang it. And David's given himself the title of Worst Singer in the Podcape is Halloween musical, which is especially,

Starting point is 01:35:45 I think they do, yeah, they do musical episodes. So, I mean, I love that that you believe to be the worst singer. Invite me on. I'll bump you down a spot. David has offered us a fact. Here it is. Oh, I like this. He says, I thought I'd sneak in a brag along with a fact on this one.

Starting point is 01:36:06 I think this is our first brag since we said we can also accept brags. Yeah, there could be brags or compliments, I think is another one as well. But yeah, okay, great. Quote or question or compliment or brags. thing. My podcast, Podcapers, is doing our fifth annual Halloween musical episode this year. Debuting or debuting, depending on whatever the Birmingham woman is so. I've never been, I think, maybe more than anything else,

Starting point is 01:36:33 I've never had my confidence batted so much as being laughed at when I said either debut or debut at that last Birmingham show. Every time I say the word, I doubt myself now. similar to saying nuclear or nuclear or whatever because of George W. Bush. Yeah. Normally we're a comic book podcast, but every Halloween we do a fully scripted musical episode. This year is the epic finale you won't want to miss. Luckily, because I'm a terrible singer, I don't have any songs this time.

Starting point is 01:37:09 Look for PodCabers wherever you listen to your podcast or at Podcavers.com. I also wanted to offer the very first pun fact in the... the show's history. A fraudian slip is when you say one thing, but you mean your mother. That's a good bit. And somehow they got me. Should have seen something like that coming, but I did it. That's good. That's good stuff. He says both a fact and a pun. Is that a pun? Good question. Is that a pun? I'm not sure.

Starting point is 01:37:44 I don't know what they are. I love that David is celebrating the end of, or actually the half-prudely, the half- Mark of Blocktober with a musical episode. I think that's fantastic. So good. Thank you for the questions and facts this week. And Braggs. And Braggs.

Starting point is 01:38:00 And just to end that segment, I can tell you that the Ray joke on The Simpsons seems to come from 70s comedian Ray J. Johnson, also known as R.J. Johnson, who apparently had a bit where he'd say, don't call me Johnson. So I think it's a joke on that. That's a good bit.

Starting point is 01:38:19 That's a good bit. Don't call me Johnson. That is a good bit. One of those had to be their bits, but a great deal of the same. It's still funny nonetheless. So another thing we like to do is thank a few of our other supporters. Bob normally comes up with a bit of a game based on the topic. Always harder in a serial killer one.

Starting point is 01:38:36 What can you pull out from this one? What's your clown name? Your clown name, fantastic. So obviously, if we've got a place where they're from, we've got the first two letters down. Then we just have to think of the second two letters from what they are. What's their essence? Okay.

Starting point is 01:38:56 So we just made it so much harder. But okay. Yes. Have we made it easier? We can do that. I thought I made it easier, but I made it harder. No, let's give it a crack. Fuck.

Starting point is 01:39:06 What am I like? What are you like? So, if I could kick it off, I'd love to thank from Collingwood, just near us in Melbourne, Megan Vilo. Okay, so first letters, co. And, oh, okay, Megan, always drinking hot cocoa. So her, Coca-Co. Coca-Co.

Starting point is 01:39:30 Coca-Co. The extra co-co-the-c clown. Well, I mean, Cocoa the clown's probably already taken. The extra co-is a typo. Yeah. And she starts a franchise company or corporation called Cocoa-Cocco. I have to do a quick count, make sure I got all four there. Did I do that right?

Starting point is 01:39:52 Thank you so much, Megan, for your support over the last year and a half, whatever. Co, co, go. I'd also love to thank from Tyler in Texas in the United States. Jake Hansen, Thai. Tie die. Ty, because he loves dying. Loves dying. Like colors.

Starting point is 01:40:08 Yeah, yeah. And his hair. He's always dying that. Blue. Every week you see him and it's like, you're blonde now. And then you see him the next week. It's blonde. now, you know?

Starting point is 01:40:18 Great town hair colour. A lot of fun. What of fun. Jake, you are a fun guy. You are a fun guy. You are a fun guy. Tie-dye. Thank you so much to you.

Starting point is 01:40:27 And finally, for me, I'd love to thank from Boston, Massachusetts in the United States. Michelle Routin. What about? Routin tootin, Michelle Routon. What about Bogo, the clown? Because Michelle Bogo loves her food on the go. On the go. Love that.

Starting point is 01:40:46 Yes. Bogo. Bogo. Bogo. Always the Rootin-Tooten cowboy. The Rootin-Tooten, Cowboy Clown, Bogo. I hope it's not Ruttin. Rutan.

Starting point is 01:40:59 Rutan. Either way, beautiful name, Michelle, Routon or Ruton. Would you like to thank a few, Jess? Yes, I would love to thank from Minneapolis in Minnesota. Ah, the Twin Cities. The thing I learnt and I love saying things I know. I think with St. Paulie, St. Paulo. It's the other twin city?

Starting point is 01:41:25 Oh, St. Paul. Oh, my God. St. Paulo. I try to add a little bit of difficulty to that. A bit of spice. St. Paul. David was generally looking like, I was like, I was like, be doing a bit?

Starting point is 01:41:39 I would love to thank Hans Christensen. Fuck off. Hans Christensen Anderson. Yeah. From the brothers Grimm? Yeah. Bloody hell. People screamy at their iPhones.

Starting point is 01:41:54 The fairy tale monger himself. Hans Christensen. So yeah, Min or yeah, Min. Oh, Min's nice. Min. Love putting things in the rubbish can. Min bin, the clan. Min bin.

Starting point is 01:42:11 Really good. Always recycling. Always picking up litter. doing the right thing, putting it in the bin. Classic Hans, Christensen, Anderson, the brothers, grim. Min bin. Min bin. Min bin the clown.

Starting point is 01:42:27 Min bin. A little closer to home from Mooney Ponds here in Melbourne. I would love to thank Tubby, Glanville. Oh, so from Mooney Pons, so we're looking at Mo. Mo. Tubby, already a strong clown name. Oh, incredible. What about Mojo?

Starting point is 01:42:43 Oh, Mojo. What's he like doing? I'm jogging. Jogging. Jogging on the spot. He loves a jog. It's funny, during comedy festival, Tubby stopped me on the street and he said, when you, he said, I think it was, he was saying, I'm Tubby from Patreon.

Starting point is 01:43:01 And he said, you read my name out, my normal boring name, which is, I can't, it was a Craig or something like that. He's like, I don't want to be Craig, call me Tubby. And he's obviously, he's changed it on there. So we didn't even, I didn't even have to remember that. Well done, Tubby. I'm tubby, aka. It's so funny to run into someone in the street and yell,

Starting point is 01:43:20 I'm tubby. I'm remembering it slightly wrong, but. No, no. I remember being a really nice moment anyway. I'm tommy. Good on, your tubby. You sound like an absolute legend. Finally, for me, I would love to thank from Union City in New Jersey, Gerardo Al-Cala.

Starting point is 01:43:42 From Union City. so you know. Might have said your name wrong there. So I do apologize. I reckon he loves riding bikes. He's Unicycle the clown. Oh. He rides a tricycle.

Starting point is 01:43:57 It's very disappointing when you've booked unicycle and he rocks up on a truck. You're like, oh, come on. He's like, have you ever tried it's hard. Bikes are many. Even two wheels is difficult. I kept falling over. Give me a third. One wheel, easy.

Starting point is 01:44:13 Big claim at a problem. parties they can ride without training wheels. Like three-year-old, four-year-old kids are like, that's actually pretty impressive. I can't do that. That is actually sick. Union City, New Jersey. That's fantastic. I want to be there.

Starting point is 01:44:28 I can't wait to visit New Jersey once more. Spent a great day there watching Rutgers play college football. Are you at the game or in a pub? No, I was at the game. They had a cool thing there. Like every time they scored a touchdown, maybe there was a night on horseback. who would run like the field, but they didn't really score many touchdowns.

Starting point is 01:44:48 Oh, a night on standby is so tragic. Yeah. I think that means it's your turn to thank a few. I'd love to thank some people. Next up, it's going to be a little bit more difficult for us because this person is from location unknown, can only assume deep within the fortress of the moles. I would like to thank Sarah, Catherine Murphy.

Starting point is 01:45:11 I guess foe, we're going to say. Fortress, yeah. FOMO. FOMO loves mowing the lawn. Loves to mow the lawn. Every week, like, can I mow the lawn? It's like, it hasn't actually grown back enough, mate. I don't think it needs a mo-just hit.

Starting point is 01:45:27 Please. Enjoy it. Just knock it on the neighbor's doors. Does your garden need mowing? I'll do it. And it's like, okay. Do you want, you know, do you want 10 bucks for it? No.

Starting point is 01:45:40 And that's Sarah. She just loves. I feel bad taking your money. Yeah. I'm getting as much enjoyment as you are getting a neat lawn. If not more. This is more for me than you. Thank you, Sarah.

Starting point is 01:45:55 I've actually felt guilty. This is an absolute treat for me. So thank you, Sarah. You're a little weirder. Next up, I would love to thank from Tulopia in the Australian Capital Territory up in Canberra. Sophia Drury. Sophia Drury. Telephone the clown.

Starting point is 01:46:16 She loves speaking on the phone in French. La phone. Telephone the clown, which they of course call le telephone. Absolutely nailed that. Owe. It's a beautiful language. Well, someone gets it right like that. It's beautiful.

Starting point is 01:46:36 Language of love. Oh, just so beautiful. Sophia Drury, fantastic name as well. Telephone the clown. That's fun. That's a fun clown. And finally, I would like to thank from Kent in Ohio, God's Country in the United States

Starting point is 01:46:49 of America. Oh, God's Country, the great state of Ohio. I'm so jealous of you. Nick Moyer. Nick Moyer from Ket. Ketamine the Clown. Ketamine the Clown. Because he loves to mine.

Starting point is 01:47:05 He loves to mine. Ketamine. I didn't Google it when I came up with it, okay? I got the website. It was a mistake. But I got a... I registered the business name before I'd really looked into it.

Starting point is 01:47:18 More of an adult clown, I guess. I got a five-year deal on the business name. A horse sidekick. The big finale, his two sidekicks in the horse fall into a K-hole. This was my second game. My first name, Hero and the clown didn't work out either,

Starting point is 01:47:36 so I had to rebrand. I'm not painting the car again. It's Kedaby. Thank you very much to Nick, Sophia, Sarah, Gerardo, Tubby, Hans, Michelle, Jake and Megan. The last thing we need to do is thank a few of our long-term supporters and welcome them into the Triptitch Club. If you are a supporter at the shout-out level or above for three straight years, we welcome you into the Triptych Club or Triptych Club, if you want to say it how I believe is correctly.

Starting point is 01:48:01 Stop saying that, honestly. It's not canon to say it correctly. I just feel guilty, Dave, because someone said they learnt the word from us and they got in an argument correcting someone saying it's you're saying it wrong and that would never assume we're right i learned it from my year 10 art teacher so let's blame miss dale oh okay well i've learned it from you so anyway so uh people have been supporting us for three straight years get welcome to another triptych club uh which is a club where all your dreams come true i'm standing at the door i'm going to read out your name dave's going to hype you up he's your hype man bringing you in

Starting point is 01:48:39 Jess then hipes up Dave, every hot man needs a hype woman. And Dave's normally booked a band. You got a book for us in the club this week, Dave? Sorry, banned a book? Have you booked a ban? I got many, many, many books. Have you banned a book?

Starting point is 01:48:51 What is this bloody, what is this, what a dictatorship here? You're not going to let us read books? Well, I've actually... No, we don't want you to ban a book, Dave. I've actually booked an Australian band. They are a punk band formed in Melbourne in 2009, and they are simply called clowns. Oh, I love clowns.

Starting point is 01:49:09 band. Great. Thank you so much. They're really good. Clowns are playing. Jess, do you have a cocktail? No pressure? Yes, we have the Joker cocktail, which I've just Googled.

Starting point is 01:49:22 Love it. And clown jello shots. Oh, great. Great options. As well as the bar is so well stocked now. Every drink that Jess has ever mentioned is still available as well. So just four inductees this week, Dave, are you ready to welcome them I am ready.

Starting point is 01:49:40 All right. Here we go. Jess, you ready to look after Dave here? I am never not ready. We've got this week from holiday in Utah in the United States, Preston Hands. Oh, let me hands you the keys to the kingdom. Come on in. I'm like, Dave's got so many options.

Starting point is 01:50:00 The holiday, Preston Hands. A lot of words aren't coming to me tonight. I'm glad I'm not having to do what Dave's doing. Fertile ground is what I was going to say. Now from Birmingham in Great Britain, it's Gary J. from the UK. Oh, Gary J. He's more than OK. Yeah, he's pretty good.

Starting point is 01:50:23 Don Bradman's average was 99.94, but your average here is 100 out of 100. From Abbotsford in British Columbia, in Canada, it's Aaron Dawson. Aaron Dawson, more like Aaron Orson. Yes. And finally from Oslo in Norway, it's Erica Della Cruz. Ooh, Erica Dela Cruz on in. You grab yourself a joker cocktail.

Starting point is 01:50:48 All right, raise the roof. Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Welcome in, Erica, Aaron, Gary and Preston. And that brings us to the end of this episode. The first one of Blocktober. Huge. Hopefully everyone had a great time with us here. It was a roller coaster of sorts.

Starting point is 01:51:03 We set the tone for a great couple of months. Once you get the grimest one out of the way, Looking ahead, this is, I believe, although I haven't looked into all of them deeply. I'm pretty sure this is easily the grimmest topic of Blocktober. So we'll tick that all up hill. I mean, there is definitely some other grimish things, but this is the grimest. Yeah, this is grim number one. Got out the way, but thank you so much for launching us headstrong into BlockMat.

Starting point is 01:51:30 We appreciate you. Didn't shy away from the topic. You did a lot of research, put yourself in a dark place for this pod, and we appreciate you doing that. In a lot of ways, I'm a hero, aren't I? You are a hero. You're my hero. Yes, you are. Thank you so much.

Starting point is 01:51:45 For sure. I've always said that. That means a lot. If people want to suggest a topic and then we'll give a shout at when we get to the topic, anyone can do that at any time at do go on pod.com. And that's the same place where you can support us, either there or patreon.com slash do go on pod. Keep this show going. We give out all those bonus episodes and all sorts of fantastic things.

Starting point is 01:52:06 we're up to over 120 bonus episodes that you can instantly access if you support us on there now as well as a bunch of other stuff and you can get in contact with us at do go on pod on Instagram, Facebook and Twitter and you can email us anytime

Starting point is 01:52:19 do go on pod at gmail.com but I believe that's the first episode of Block done and Dusted Thank you so much. We'll be back next week with another Block-tastic episode but until then I'll say thank you and goodbye.

Starting point is 01:52:33 Bye. Bye. Don't forget to sign up to our tour mailing list so we know where in the world you are and we can come and tell you when we're coming there. Wherever we go, we always hear six months later, oh, you should come to Manchester. We were just in Manchester. But this way you'll never miss out. And don't forget to sign up, go to our Instagram, click our link tree.

Starting point is 01:53:02 Very, very easy. It means we know to come to you and you'll also know that we're coming to you. Yeah, we'll come to you, you come to us. Very good. And we give you a spam-free guarantee. Thank you.

Do Go On - 311 - John Wayne Gacy: The Killer Clown

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