Two In The Think Tank - 36 - H.H. Holmes

Episode Date: June 29, 2016

This week, Jess has jumped into the suggestion hat and has uncovered the case of one of the first serial killers - H.H. Holmes! Come inside the Murder Castle but don't get too comfy! Twitter: @DoGoOnPodInstagram: @DoGoOnPodFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/DoGoOnPod/Email us: [e-mail] the show and get rewards like bonus episodes:www.patreon.com/DoGoOnPod Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hey everybody, Jess and Dave, just jumping in really quickly at the top here to make sure that you are across all the details for our upcoming Christmas show. That's right, we are doing a live show in Melbourne Saturday December the 2nd, 2023, our final podcast of the year, our Christmas special. It's downstairs at Morris House, which usually be called the European beer cafe. On Saturday December the 2nd, 2023 at 4.30pm, come along, come one, come all, and get tickets at dogoonpod.com. Are you working way too hard for way too little?

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Always stripes, safely. Hello and welcome to Doo Go On. You can hear Jess Perkins and this episode is going to be very funny because she's already laughing before we've even said anything. My name is Dave Wanakite. Did I say it's called Doo Go On? I hope I did. You've already heard Jess's laugh. I'm here with her, Jess. Hello, Dave. How are you? Very depressed. Trying to convince yourself to have a good time. Yeah.

Well, loving. And we're also joined by, not laughing so much, going a bit of a tough cookie to crack. It's Matt Stewart. To be honest, we're in a serious business here. The business is podcasting. That's right. And we're all very rich.

There's a lot of steak. There's a lot of steak. My word, my word there is. Oh, you must. I just had a can of pumpkin soup for dinner. That's how well I'm doing. And some very buttery toast. Oh man, I've been craving butter all day.

So before the pot, I bought a can of soup, bought a leather bread, bought a packet of butter and put half that packet onto two pieces of toast. It was confronting to watch, but also like strangely satisfying. And then what year after, I know after soup, I always feel like a bit of a dessert card of truth. You have a little treat day. A little $2 supermarket chocolate mousse. All right.

Which is as delicious as it sounds. I noticed he didn't bring any for us, which is interesting. That is interesting. There is an extra one. Do you guys want food? There is an extra one in the, do you guys want food? There is an extra one in the fridge if you want to find it. I kind of just assumed you didn't get us one because you know we're both adults. And you're...

Well, yes, that is the youngest here. Thanks you. Just to paint a little picture for our listeners, little Davey Walnicki still got moose all over his face. It's all around my mouth. Saving that for later. I could never finish a whole moose at once, but I'm not going to put it back in the fridge I just leave it on my face.

It's a good way to do it. It's my style of eating. But how are you guys? What if you have a deal? Let's go around the table. I have not had dinner. Okay, so there we go. Who's the adult now?

That's even less successful than I am. But very adult. And I had a frozen pizza that I put in the oven. Oh, cooking in a way. Yeah, in a way, because I got home and had to finish this report and was like, I need something that I don't have to tend to. Well, it works. Let me ask you one question. That pizza,

what's your flavor? Tell me what's your flavor? What's your flavor? Remember that song, Matt? Yeah, Craig David. Is it Craig? From his unsuccessful follow-up album after his smash hit that included walking away. Seven days. Which one? Seven days. Some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some of some, some, some, some. Oh, I was talking for a drink on Tuesday. We were making love on Wednesday. And on Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Which you are on Sunday. You gotta have a rest day.

Gotta have a rest day. That's great. That's great. How about banging every day? Craig's a pretty good name. Craig. Remember last week you had an issue with King's Stave? And what about King Craig?

Yuck. Oh, I couldn't be a King Craig too. And also like Americans would say like Craig. King Craig. King Craig, you know? King Craig, you know that album that we're talking about is like 15 years ago. He's only like 33 or something now. He was really.

He was a wonder kind. He really was. Was he really young? When he was walking away. He was walking away in Nappy's. He was walking away, protégé. I thought you were the rimer on the show. I just nailed that.

Oh, come on. Sans laughter for the walking away protégé. Well, I'm just a bad give up. You know, you didn't let it breathe. You said, walk away protégé, I am the best. But you can't finish the joke. I mean, am I wrong? Walk away protégé, shoot. Wait, shoot. Wait, shoot. Start the protégé. I mean am I wrong? Well my prototype shoe which?

I didn't even hear what you said because you suddenly chanting. I am the best. Can we just say that after every joke today? I am the best. I feel I'm going to be saying that after a few months, I'm bomb as I often do. Well I appreciate that you guys thought it was a joke, anyway, I mean, really all I did was rhyme a couple of vaguely related words.

We need to work on rhyming with you. Loot of J. Walking away. I look, I stand by. Yeah, all right. Well, this has been a rock solid stuff. Well, we don't usually talk this much about chocolate most all-crate daifers. We should talk about both of those things more. We don't usually talk this much about chocolate moose or craved Davis. We should talk about both of those things more.

What we usually do is that one of us take over and do a report, God, I hope it's about craved of it. Oh, that'd be great. What a segue. Yes, it is your turn to do a report this week. It is my turn. And I have delved into the hat. Yes.

Matt took off the hat momentarily, jumped in there, grabbed a top of your random. You got to be quick. Man, I love the hat so much. Yeah took off the hat momentarily, you jumped in there, grabbed a top of your random. You got to be quick. Man, I love the hat so much. Yeah. The hat's pretty great. And it's fun to choose them. You know, he's like, oh my god, oh, what am I gonna do? Did you hand pick or random pick out of the hat?

I had a look at a couple, and then I did a really quick Google search of this one because I hadn't heard of it. And like within a few seconds, I was like, oh yeah, we're doing this. This is it. Oh, like that. That means it's, from the get go, it's a good. That said, it's a darker topic.

And you guys are really gonna have to lift your comedic game to make this, to make get listeners not feel very sad at the end. Oh, good. Challenge not accepted. Oh great. Oh you're right, I'm the funny one. That's right.

Shit. That's just gonna work. Sorry, I've written jokes in this. Look, I'll see if I can put some rhymes together. Yeah, okay, great. Does the end of every paragraph just have pause for laughter written at the end of your report? Hold for a pause. Hold for a pause. Sorry, hold for a pause. And three, four. Second bow. Now. Three, four, second bow, now. Anyway. Anyway, please do go on to start your report, which I assume you have a question.

Not breaking protocol 36 weeks in. No, never. I do have a question, and it's- Is it related to the topic? No. It's just what's your favorite color? That would break protocol again. Green.

Okay. Blue. I'm a blue as well. Yes. You guys always gang up on me, although you can't make green That would break protocol. Green. Okay. Blue. I'm a blue as well. Yes. You guys always gang up on me. Although you can't make green without blue. So suck a dick.

What to yourself? You can't make it. What a weird one. I don't fully get why that is like a mean thing to say. Suck a dick. More than half of the world enjoy doing that. I would if I could. Oh, I hang. Oh hang on.

Alright, so um... Well, Matt's on one. So my question. Dark topic, dark topic. My question is, who was America's original serial killer. I'm just thinking about bad offspring song, original prankster. Yes, this was original. Like, original serial killer. Original, all right. Original serial, I can't think of it. I had never heard of it. The guy with the... Check the rip-up, that's English. That's English. The guy only got Charles Manson. That was much much later.

More of a mess, maybe. The only other than Charles Manson. Yeah was much, much lighter. More of a mass movie. The other one, Charles Manson. Yeah, we're talking like 1800s. At Narn Sayed, allegedly. Oh no, he's been convicted. And that wasn't serial. Oh, that was serial. Oh, I didn't ever get my own joke there.

Can we call that one a joke? Yeah, that's it. Two jokes. Two jokes and one embarrassing. Oh, well, it's embarrassing. That's an interesting comment, you homophone? No, the one where you said you wish you were able to suck like you're not able to. There's nothing homophobic about what I'm saying. The other is backpedaling pretty briskly over there. It's like a homophobic word.

It is a little weird that he's on an exercise bike in his studio. You gotta make time for these things. That's right. I'm all she's asking. I'm on a yoga ball. Nothing. That's laughter. I am the best. What is happening to me?

Okay. Alright, practice serial killers. Alright, serial killers. I had never heard of him. Okay. Is this him? Is this someone who, I don't remember, Vagley had like a hotel where they killed people?

Yes. Oh. Correct. But I know no other details. I think it might have been like a Ripley's believe it or not. It's a type thing. That's how it was. Like a little fact about someone who allegedly killed a lot of people. Yeah, that is absolutely bang on. Oh my god Well, does now this was suggested to us by Cody Clark. Cody Clark, you morbid

Puss at Cody C zero nine five on Twitter. Also, what's the Twitter at Cody C zero nine five Cody if you're born in 95. That's my guess Anyway, if you are that's my guess if you're born in 95, that's my guess. Anyway. If you are, that's my guess. If you're not. If you're 95 years old, congratulations on being good at Twitter. I saw someone driving around and then number plate was like GS or two initials and then it said 1924. Oh yeah, okay.

No, no, it said it was early that it was like 19, like 20 or something. So it was very similar to 24, but before you sold it, and then I looked at the person in the car, and they were definitely that old and sick. Oh, wow, okay, cool. So 96-year-old driver. Jesus, that everyday, do you? Yeah.

Oh, you're what? Was you dead? No, I take me to licenses away. Yeah. Wow, so thank you to Cody for the suggestion of course, but it is as more but it sounds as irregular as it sounds. Yeah, it's fascinating but really sick and twisted as well. And what's kind of interesting is that there is a lot of information and there also isn't

a lot of information about this person, right? All right, well one of those things is not true. No, no, no, but you know what I mean? Like, there's, there's, no, I don't. Okay. Well, like, there's, there's still a lot of questions. There's a lot of points in this where you're going to ask me a question and I'm going to go, I don't know. What's his favorite color? Blood. Black. Oh, I would say, that's, that's definitely not a color. Oh, come on. Blood red. Just give me that one. Okay. Come on. What about, I feel like that maybe you're just covering your tracks for like a research? Yeah. Enough research. No one knows what this guy's name was.

Okay, well that's not true, but what I mean and you'll understand as we go along, but there's so many points where you're like, why did nobody tweak? How did this happen? They're first serial killer, and they're, as a country, what are they, like, 400 years old? So he's listed as one of the first sort of serial killers in the modern understanding of the word serial killer. So it was a highly publicized?

That kind of definition, right? Yeah, exactly right. So I'll tell you a little bit about it. So his name... Oh, will there be a body count on this? Oh, yeah. Oh, cool, because man, we've done that for King Tut and for Bonnie and Clyde now. Okay, yeah, sure.

That trilogy of body counts. Right, you can body count, so that's fun. His name was HH Holmes. Okay. Triple H. But he was actually born as... Oh, wrestler. Herman Webster, Muget. Whoa!

I think I get the change in name. Are you thinking? Although I'm wondering why... Don't point that pin in my mouth. What is it, Herman? Herman, you pronounce HH. Did I? HH? HH.

Oh no, no, no, no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no no I'd like to know the name again. Herman. Herman Webster Muget. And he sings a single H there. Was this one of the times where someone should have tweaked when they named someone that? They thought, oh fuck, he's going to be a killer. Okay, well now I feel like you're just taking the piss. All right. Well, people died down. Oh no, over 200 year old serial killer. He's the real victim here. No. Too soon. And what was what you was too soon? He was born on the 16th of May in 1861,

okay, in New Hampshire. Mm. 1861 he goes, born nays, his parents were Levi Horton Muget and Theodate paid price. Theodate, three cracking names. Great name. Can you just repeat those because they're so good.

Levi, these people never really come back into the story. Levi, it definitely didn't exist. Levi and Theodate. Yeah, you're, this is feeling very made up, so. I made this all thing up. I've never said Levi, obviously. I'm a guessy. I'm a guessy. I'm a Levi Strauss, but Theodate. I'm a guessing, that's how you say it. And that's a woman. Theodate. Yeah. So he was a third child. So he had an older sister named Ellen,

an older brother named Arthur, and he had a younger brother named Henry. So they have all got fairly normal names, Herman. Now, his father was a farmer from a farming family. What are you farm? First question. No one knows. Did you not hear the stuff? I don't know. Wheat and pigs. Both of them. What a combat. Yeah, it's a great combat. How much land do

you have? A couple acres. A couple of acres. A couple of acres. A couple of acres. Oh wow. What could he have made? He could have used his produce to have. What could he have put together? Bacon bread Great. I'm really happy to eat bacon bread. I'm not wrong. You're not wrong But he's not wrong. He was a bacon bread farmer and And his parents would devout methodists now apparently as well. His father was a violent alcoholic Okay, so a bit of a troubling childhood. I was really always doing. I was thinking a lot of Levi, but then just for the jeans. The serial killer

They often do it like you say have bad upbringing certainly. Yeah. Well, yeah, you think so, yeah But apparently he was very good at school. He excelled at school. He was a really smart child But then he got sort of bullied by jealous classmates because he was smart and because he excelled at school So in an attempt to scare him, the bullies found out that he was scared of the doctors. He was scared of going to the doctor so they forced him. They booked him in a point. Oh no! 1pm! Check out your shelter! Check up! No!

My kryptonite! They bought in private health insurance. Oh, I'll be there forever. With regular checkups. No! They bought in private health insurance With regular checkups I'm glad you guys are finding this funny You told us I did I didn't thank you let the bodies hit the floor Let the bodies hit the floor Man, I'm hoping these bullies pay But anyway anyway, so what do they do to? For the doctors. I think they will.

They broke into the doctor's office. And they made him stand face to face with one of the human skeletons. Like one of the display ones. You know, when you have a human on display, you know what I mean, all right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. One of the skeletons.

So they made him stand face to face with that. A human one. Not one of the pig skeletons he used to back home. Yeah, he wouldn't be human in farm with that. And they even like they place the skeleton hands on his face and you like crept him out. But I'm sorry to think he's got less of a fear of doctors and more fear of skeletons. Well, I'm sure that didn't help. And if he said, he later admitted that that was very frightening at first, but then he sort of found the experience really fascinating. And he said that that

cured him of his fees. And he soon became obsessed with death and later started a hobby of dissecting animals. So he's gone from one extreme to the other. Yeah, it's like it's fascinated him now. Pretty quick. Yeah, actually. It's pretty, pretty, pretty disappointed. And then he grabbed his skeleton hand and slowly pushed it down his body, just down, down his stomach stomach slowly down, and down to his belly button, keep going down, lower and lower. Oh no, no, no, no, put out his, put his, listen his belly little, down and, you know, et cetera, et cetera.

It's a kind of, I've got to say, it's a pretty disappointing time for a bully when you're like, yeah, and they're shitting themselves and then five minutes in, they're like, oh, loves it. They're making that with the skeleton. They're mounted the skeleton up. It's getting out of here! Another bull is the skeleton. Yeah, the helmet's crazy. And then like, herman. Sorry, any hermans are there. Now at the early age of 16, he graduated from high school and took teaching jobs in and around the area that he lived in New Hampshire and on Sort of like tutoring style things. Well, it says took teaching jobs I think like a teacher in a school. Well, Dave as far as asking questions about an interesting point

That was you a way of the mafia. Oh tell me more about these. What was he teaching? Was it Piano? Yeah. That would have been an interesting question. Would it like, um, what is he like, uh, like, uh, tutoring or like, um, what was he just teaching in a classroom? Did he have a textbook? Fucking hell. Probably.

Is he a member of the teachers' credit union? I don't know. He gave fucking hell. Stop bogging just down with the bullshit man. Okay. All right. I don't want who Dave fucking out. Stop bogging just down with the bull shit man. Okay. Alright, I don't want to have to warn you again. Guys. Teachers tweet interview honest to talk more about your profession. Now on July 4th in 1878 so he was born in what 61? So he's like 17, 18, 17, 17. He married Clara Lovering in Alton. They got married. Great. He married Clara Lovering in Alton.

They got married. Great name again. Clara Lovering. Lovering is a pretty good name. Is it like, is it spelled Lovering? Lovering. But is it, right? Right, really good.

Good band to you guys. Lovering, right. Lving, right? Loving, what's your question? Because it's about Loving, like L-O-V-E-R-I-N-G. Yes, Loving. That's a great name. Hey, if I had to pick a wife. Look, I don't think I was spending enough time on this.

Would you say Loving or Loving? One question. Well, she also a teacher. And what was she teaching? I hate you. So they got married and then they had a son. No, I bought a bit of teacher. In 1880, right?

Oh, so he, oh, so imagine, so. A little bit later. You've got a dad. Yeah, imagine that. I mean, like, imagine, but then also on top of that Kills okay, well it doesn't yet shut up. I'm sorry Teaches people are living so teachers people that's fine. That's there's no shame in you dad Kills it's all my dad's a teacher says mine and I'm very proud of him. I'm not your dad

We haven't discussed dad's name. So's not your Dad's name. Paul? Is it really? I wouldn't have picked that at all. Paul. What would you have guessed? I would have guessed it. I see. The man I've never met is more of a Gavin to me.

I would have said like a David. David's your Dad's name. But David and Paul are the same. I'd both have a crack at my Dad's name. Your Dad's name. Fuck, I think I know this too. Gary. No. No, I've got an uncle Gary. Oh, One key. I feel like you've said this kind of recently and I should know it. I'm just as soon as you say it

I'm gonna know it. Jules Walniki give us a first letter Greg M Martin Malcolm Martin is correct. You have said it. Martin Walniki. All right. Have a girl mine He's a fuckhead Ah, you see what I'd I'd purpose I understand what you said for humor Now we're all having fun close Jim Perkins not not close but yeah, John bang He goes good at this and I I would never have guessed Paul

We'll play it anyways, and now we've talked about our dad's names. I'm not quite grandparents. Um, now at the age of 18, this is before his son was born, so just shortly after getting married, he enrolled in the University of Vermont. Hey, before you go on. Text in your dad's names. 1800. Actually, yes, we do. Hashtag dad.

Hashtag. No, he's not. Dad's name. Hashtag. Geez She's used to be really good at that hashtag my dad's name is Very clever. I love the multiple mains that you know Takes in hashtag. No, my let's let's solidify that my dad's name is no apostrophe. We'll forgive you Yeah, great. Your bro will have to answer.

Okay, can I move on please? Please. Last week was our loose episode, but this week is fucking crazy. 100% gold. I regret nothing I've said so far. So far. This is our jumping mishank episode. Jumping to dad.

There it is. Hashtag jumping the dead. There it is. Hashtag jumping the dead? Yep, alright, happy with that. Okay, somebody was 18. He rolls university, but he's not that happy with the school. So he left. Because he was like, I'm already a teacher. Why am I here?

I don't need university. So he left after a year, and then a couple of years later, in 1882, he entered the University of Michigan's Department of Medicine and Surgery and graduated in June, 84 after passing his examination. So he's a doctor, and also, he only studied for two years and he's a doctor. Two short years, well.

Yeah, so he's a... That's so you don't realize that. But back in the 1800s, being a doctor was one of the least respected jobs. What was the most? Most respected job? Rat catcher. Rat catcher. Yeah, you actually had to do a seven-year course to become a rat catcher.

I've only got one year left. Then I could catch all the rats. I've always dreamed of having 17 rats. Then they'll respect me. I was show them all. I was show them all. I bet if he had 16 rats and then he accidentally caught two. And he's like, no!

You have to kill one of them. I'll have to kill them all and start King. You know, they know the rules. Whoa Well, he's my head skip on your head Just a minute of jizz loving What that baby loves a lot I know the rules Because the rats were like that. You're an apple. Try not to chop our heads off.

I think this just is laugh birthday I'm sorry Just break the internet King Ted action's awesome Just laugh Oh boy No it's funny it's gonna be good We're like now we're not gonna fuck around in this one

Oh dear What has happened to us? We're all gonna throw up I don't want like, we're listening back, it wouldn't be that funny. Oh, think of my name. Especially when you hear yourself laughing for a minute. I think you're laugh. We know the rules. You're gonna a little head rat full of his little hat, and it's a horticus. It's been an honor, been in a sack with your gavna. Shall we do it?

No, I'm doing it. Don't take your time. Let us have it. So I was in the lake. We knew the deal when we got in this caipa. And this sack. How do we get to rat sacks? Rat catcher.

Rat catcher. No more professions. Of course, that's how we got here. Anyway. So he was a doctor. He's a doctor. H.A. Chomes. Now, while in Rohold in medical school,

he stole cadavers from the lab. In old guard. He disfigured the bodies and claimed that the victims were killed accidentally in order to collect insurance money from policies he took out on each of the deceased people. But when they're like, he's already dead. Yeah, but he would take out an insurance policy. This is what I mean when I say this question

I know I spent the records are obviously a lot less well kept. Yeah So he would take out a life insurance policy and then we just drive into the place with a body and be like look another one I don't know I don't understand how he got away with it, but it worked So he would just claim insurance money on these bodies. He would just figure them, so it looked like they'd had some horrible accident. Yeah, maybe when he got to them,

maybe they weren't officially dead yet. I mean, he's the doctor. Maybe they've come in. No, they're already cadavers. Where's that, that's the... It's like a med school. Is that what you were saying though? Yeah, yeah. Some of them at university, whatever. Right, yeah, okay. So they'd like donated their body to science. So they're dead. It's like a med school. Is that what you were saying though?

Yeah, yeah. Right, yeah. So they're like donated their body to science. So they're dead. That's very confusing. It's so confusing. Maybe you drew a mustache on them and said they were dead twins. Somebody else?

Yeah. I don't know. That's what I mean when I say. I also make sure you thought they were dead, but they're actually alive, but now they're dead again. Yeah. Kind of have the money. Please. Because for some reason, me, me stranger to them to get insurance

That's what I mean. It's so strange like you're gathering you do this a few times A couple of times. Yeah, it worked and so this is like the beginning of Captain crazy He should now be known Captain crazy now Weirdly his marriage to Clara quickly fell apart just strange isn't it really seems like a really balanced person Yeah just after he ripped her throat out while she slept Luckily she lived

So he eventually abandoned his wife and son and he spent the next couple years working various jobs and continue continuing with these Scams you kind of moved around the country a little bit, which was very strange. He moved... Still doing these like sort of dodgy sort of things, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, and he moved to New York and a room of against spreading that homes was seen with a little boy who later disappeared, and he claimed that the boy went back to his home in Massachusetts, but no investigation took place and he sort of left town. So, it's quite a dodgy time. Yeah, it's really strange. And he later travelled to, sorry, Matt question.

Is his name, his name's Holmes. I miss that. Is he a name's Holmes? He changed his name. When did he become? I'm actually not 100% sure. Oh, sorry. Is it because of the...

Right now. It's in the next sentence. It's funny because I was thinking I'm sorry Yeah, I was referring to the times He sounds a little bit already the story made me think of the other that other doctor the Dave talked about a few weeks You who went on to write the story of Sherlock Holmes? Oh, I think I know all they were both in the olden days, right? Both They were both in the olden days, right? Both, both, both, and adopted. Both had something to do with someone with the surname Holmes.

Any questions? One solve mode is one committed them. All I'm asking is, please do go on. Thank you. It was with the same person. He later traveled to Philadelphia where he got a position at a drug store and when he was working there a boy died from taking medicine that was bought from the store and And he because his name isn't homes yet Herman denied any involvement with the child's death and immediately left the city and right before moving to Chicago

He decided to change his name to Henry Howard Holmes to avoid the possibility of his previous scam victims catching up and reporting him. So now he is Holmes. Sorry I was referring to him as I had it before but now moving to Chicago he's now Henry Howard Holmes. The victims of his scams who were like the death of him? Actually his brother's name was Henry, he stole his brother's name but it's right. That's a weird one. That's a weird one. Sorry, Matt, what were you saying? Who were the victims of his scams? Um, well like, uh, the boy who died taking medicine, I think he'd been, um, there'd been

some more insurance fraud. Yeah, the cadabra is possibly this kid in New York City, so it's just a bunch of weird crimes attached to us. Yeah. So he's, so he's escaping the cops. Yeah. Well, he's not. And the insurance companies I imagine. It doesn't seem like just yet he's being sought after by the police. He's just kind of like, I think maybe he would leave when people started to be a

little suspicious of him when he got that feeling he'd bail. So now he's headed for Chicago and he arrives in Chicago in August of 1886 and he came across Elizabeth Holton's drug store at the northwest corner of South Wallace Avenue and West 63rd Street and she gave him a job and he proved himself to be a hardworking employee and they seemed to get along quite well and after her husband died, Holmes offered to- Oh, every death feels suspicious to me. Yeah, you say someone dies. And you're like, oh no.

Well, he wasn't really part of the drugstore. So she was his employer. So I think he may have died of his natural causes. Anyway, allegedly. Holmes offers to buy the drugstore from her. And she agrees, because it's like, yep, fine. But then she's never seen or heard from again. And whenever any regular customers asked Holmes about her whereabouts after she'd sold the drugstore to him, he'd say that she'd moved to California to be close to relatives, but she was never heard

of again. She must have really, yeah, just really liked the quiet life of the relatives of California. Yeah, and just spend their days at the beach. Cuddled tyres from her life in Chicago. She's that one alive, hey? Yeah, lucky lady. Lucky that he came about and then bought the drugstore. Yeah, gave her the money to retire. He really is quite a citizen. I wonder when he's gonna turn. Obviously, yeah, at some point he becomes a bad guy, but bloody hell. For now, there's nothing but ticks on that page. So far so good. So he'd arrived in Chicago in 1886. And in 1887, he married Merta Bellnap.

Jess, like, if you want us to believe this, you can have to, like, at least give us... Her name was M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-M-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P loving too much. Jess you're really trying to bring this great man down. You're going to regret that so bad. Am I really? Oh Jess is that a threat? Whoa who's this serial killer here? So now a couple of years later he purchased an empty lot across the road from the drugstore and he built a three-story block long hotel building and because of its enormous structure, local people dubbed it the castle and the building was 162 feet long and 50 feet wide. That's pretty big. It's pretty big building, three stories. The ground floor of the castle contained Holmes's own relocated drugstore. He moved the drugstore across the road into a new location and had other shops

in it. There was like a jewelry store and a couple of other little shops. I'm not really sure if you own those. I think he rented sure if you're in the order. Did he own those? Just sort of rent those out. I mean, I think he rented them out. So he sort of rented out those spaces. And the upper two floors contained his personal office and a labyrinth of rooms with doorways

that opened to brick walls. Rooms with doorway. Okay, yeah, that bit. Oddly angled hallways. Stairways leading nowhere. Doors that could only be opened from the outside and a host of other strange and deceptive construction. So was it a hotel or not? Could you stay there?

Yes, it seems like it was more the case that... It appears my room is a brick wall. It seems like... I'm afraid it's number of underbought. He's had tenants rather than a lot of guests. Right, okay, sure. But yeah, it was a hotel, so you could stay there. Now he was apparently constantly firing and hiring different workers during the construction

of the castle, claiming that they were doing incompetent work. But his actual reason was to ensure that he was the only one to fully understand the design of the building. Oh, well, that does make sense. You have different builders. Yeah, they only see part of it. They never know the full plan. They never know exactly what's going on.

I haven't felt this crypt out in a long time. I'm glad we're recording this at night. So that's good. Now, Drew? Oh, in a castle-shaped hotel room. I'm terrified. Castle-shaped. Yeah.

It's quite a big hotel room. Yeah. It's shaped like a castle. Yeah. It's the castle themed. I'm in the dome right now. Our castle has a dome. I'm in the mode. Where are you dead? Where are you dead? I swear you dead. I went to say dead. Where are you dead? I went to save Dave. Where are you, Dad? Dad. Dad. Dad. I am in the broom closet. The castle broom closet. The castle and you chose the broom closet. Okay, now during the period of a building construction in 1889 homes met and became close friends with a guy called Benjamin Peetzel It could be Pizzle it feels like it's all the letters have been scrambled on all these words each one

I'm just like second. Yeah, itizzle is. So it's P-I-T-E-Z-E-L. Pizzle. It's like Pizzle. Pizzle? Everyone involved in this case. Let's decide how we want to pronounce it. Pizzle. Let's just call him Pizzle.

Right. Benjamin Pizzle. Benjamin Pizzle. He was a carpenter with a criminal pilot. Can we call him Pizzle Pizzle? No. We'll just call him Pizzle. All right, great.

He is Pizzlezel as his right hand man for his criminal schemes. And I don't think Matt did he hear that he's a builder with a dodgy past, criminal past. Someone you might see on like a coronafield. Dodgy build. Yeah, he's definitely like the chasing him down the street. Like, why didn't you finish the drill?

No, come in. Yeah. Yeah, somehow makes you sound more guilty than if you said, I killed him all. Exactly. So pretzel comes up in this story of quite a bit. So after the completion of the hotel, it was all built. He selected mostly female victims from among his employees. Okay, right. Sorry. I feel like that should have been a full stop. After the hotel was completed, he chose mainly female victims from his employees. Oh my God. Many of whom were required as a condition of employment to take out life insurance policies.

Who do you reckon may have paid for those premiums but also be the beneficiary? Why would you? Is there any ideas? Is it pretzel? No. Next guess. Is it a metal bell nap? It's metal, no, it's hunts. Is it Gary Warnocky? It's Gary Warnocky. Dave's uncle. You had a name change. Right, so he makes them take out life insurance policies. He pays the premium. He's like, I'll pay for your life insurance. My new job has done the same thing. Should I be a bit worried? Very interesting. Hmm.

So some of these employees slash victims, just as an idea, they were either locked in soundproof bedrooms fitted with gas lines that led him to fixate them at any time. Fixate? That sounds positive. That's, what does that mean? That's suffocating. You've got an issue. They're less fixated.

No, just take away all the oxygen if you've got too much of it. Can't spell asphyxiate without... ...sphyx. I was going to sayphyx. Well, that would have made more sense,phyx. Sphyx was fun. Sphyx is still fun. Okay, so...

You've got a problem, I'll fix it. That was his motto. That's on the billboard for the hotel. Um... He's got a billboard. And he looks creepy, it's like holding a knife. Which is weird because he kills people with other mains. It was a red herring to make you feel safe. Oh he'll never gas me, he's a nice mad around.

Oh no! A cup of breath! He'll lift a gas being. Oh, I'm glad you took part find it. It was so fun. It's the only way to handle such a lot of its op. It is. Other victims were locked in a huge, soundproof bank vault near his office where they were left to suffocate.

A bank vault. There's also a secret room. You get off the worst part there. Oh, that didn't take it to the bodies and the barrels. Well, that's a very recent one. That was a bankfold as well. Oh, of course, of course it was. There was also a secret room that was completely sealed by solid brick

that could only be entered through a trap door in the ceiling and Holmes would lock his victims in this room for days to die of hunger and thirst. That one seems almost the most humane. He even vented them. I'd take the gas room for sure. Would you? You'd take like a week to die in the other one. What was that was gas?

Would you rather gas that would kill you in like two minutes or the room where he leaves you to starve to death? There's there's more coming if you want to choose at the end. I mean, I mean, can I not can I pick can I pick life? I want to choose life. Like George Michael. Tell me too. He also, this is kind of interesting and super creepy.

He also invented a unique alarm system and installed it to all the doors on the upper floor to alert him whenever anybody was walking around in the hotel. Chubb security still use it to this day. Ha ha ha. I'm not entirely sure how it worked. There was a lot of information about his alarm system, but it seems like it was quite ahead of its time obviously.

It's probably just all connected to one bell. Yeah. And it would be like, oh, every time I open a door of bell rings. Look, it may have been that simple, I don't know. But he was aware when people were moving around in the top floor. Why did he want to be aware? I don't know in case like... They found one in the room. Well, because if... Well, he would be aware of who's where, obviously. And then if he heard movement and he was like, no, no, there shouldn't be anybody up there,

then he may know that somebody's snooping around. Ah, Scooby Doo. Yeah, raggy. The victims' bodies were put inside either a secret metal chute or a dummy elevator, which led to the basement, where some were meticulously dissected, stripped of flesh, crafted into skeleton models, then sold to medical schools. So is he doing this for money or is he a combination of craziness and cash? I think it's a bit of column B. I think it's for the money.

No, no, just for the money. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, okay? I think we all dream about, you know, making money from our passion and he gets to do that every day. Wow. Oh my god. This has become too real for me. If podcasting could be a full-time job, you know, it's like stripping a body. Do you guys mind if I stop listening to Jess from now on? I don't, I'll turn my voice up in your ears. Thank you.

But I also have to listen to Jess. I have to listen to Jess every day Oh, man. This topic is fucked. I'm sorry. Thanks a lot Cody. Is it interesting fucked like no? I'm interested. No, it definitely is interesting, but I'm starting to think like Why is this Cody guy so interested in it because it's fascinating? Why does he want us to talk about it? It's fascinating. I'm so now he knows all how we think about it. Now he can use that against us when he brings us to his own hotel of mystery and death. That's where my mind's going, anyway.

I'm starting to think that this A-Tage Home Sky might not be as nice a guy as I originally thought and stated about 30 minutes ago. Where we go? I'm starting to regret that statement completely. Yes. To be honest, with a bit of hindsight, I think it's starting to sound a little foolish. To have said that. Oh, dear. Oh, he did the pen lick.

He lick his pen. Okay, so he's making them into skeleton models, but if you think about it. Oh, I'm sorry. I thought it was going to be... He's having a fashion show, Sorry, sorry. I thought it was gonna, he's having like a fashion show. There's like little skeleton catwalk with the models going down. I've heard of the stick thin models being, but this is ridiculous. Sorry about all that. Definitely worth stopping you mid-sense. Yeah, I appreciated that. But through the connections that he gained in medical school, he sold the skeletons and organs with little difficulty. No, that makes no sense. Why is he constantly turning up with another skeleton? Where did you get that organ from? Guys, I just found this one in the forest again. You'll never believe it, money please. You know what, this sounds like a like a real bloody brilliant time for small

business. And I think that's what they say today. Small business finds it so tough because there's all this red tape. Like, if you try and sell an organ or a skeleton. Oh man, you feel that forms for weeks. People are going to be there asking who's organs were these, etc. Did they have work cover? Oh, okay, I'm just trying to provide for my family. Honestly. Who are having... I'm really P to provide for my family. Honestly, who are having a really pee-oad right now?

So, just answer this question, Jess. Can I get worse before I get better? Yep. Oh, no, Matt! So, he also buried some of the bodies in lime pits for disposal, which like breaks down the bodies, and he also had two. Oh, I could have sold those, an idiot. He had two giant furnaces, which he used to incinerate some of the bodies or evidence,

as well as... How many bodies are there? Are we selling some, burying some, putting some on a shoot, burn out? Some in a giant furnaces. And then no one's questioning this? He also has pits of corrosive acid, and bottles of various poisons, and even a stretching rack. So he's a psycho.

Now, what a... Oh! Yeah. Yeah, he's a snout. Yeah, he just sounded like a psycho. That stretching rack just put him over the edge. Yeah, that's right. He just went to the next stretch house.

Now, at one point, a young woman called Julius Smife moved into the building. She was the wife of Ned Conner, so Ned and Julia have moved in. Couple of normal names, thank you Jess. Nice people. I think, now your Ned was working at the pharmacy's jewelry counter, right?

So like he was selling jewelry in one of the little shops in the building. At some sort of counter. At a counter of some kind. Right, now homes began an affair with Julius Mice. And after her husband Ned found out about the affair, he quit his job, he moved away, he left Julia and her daughter Pearl behind, and Julia gained custody of their daughter Pearl.

Oh no, chose the wrong parents Pearl. Remained the hotel, Pearl. Oh, no. Show the wrong parents, Pearl. Remained at the hotel, continuing her affair with Holmes. Say what you like about this guy, but he bloody bet a few women, didn't he? Yeah, but this is third. He's still currently married. Twice. Twice, by living with one of them.

Oh, so that's when you say continue the affair affair, he continued his affair. He's affair. Right. Okay. So in 1891 Julia told him that she was pregnant with his baby and demanded marriage and he agreed to marry her. But earlier they couldn't they could not have a child. He then suggested performing an abortion and she agreed. He then suggested performing an abortion and she agreed. Okay. And they planned it for Christmas Eve because that seems like a nice time to do it. But Holmes murdered Julia by overdosing her with chloroform and later killed Pearl as well. When confronted by a tenant in the building who questioned the whereabouts of Julia and her daughter, Holmes said that they'd left for Iowa to attend a family wedding.

May never came back, but no questions asked apparently. Great wedding. They had a ball. They got married. They got married. It's one of the spur of the moment things. How, like, this guy, like evil genius and so, I can't believe how many, like,

he's making people fall in love with him and do, like, irrational things. Yeah. Like, like he's making people fall in love with him and do like irrational things. Yeah. Like it, like it letting a small businessman, I mean he was a doctor, but... Yeah, well he's wealthy, he must be pretty wealthy. So, and he's obviously, he has to be quite charming, you know, like to do getting away with all this. Are you working way too hard for way too little? There's never been a better time to consider a career in IT.

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most people were like, wow, that's a weird time to get married. Strange time, but I guess everybody's already on holidays. Plus, it's a little bit cheaper. I think those kind of days. That was the kind of small talk they made. Yeah. Oh, must've mean, yeah, it was cheaper.

Probably cheaper. Great value. So he hires a man named Charles Chappell to articulate Julius Skeleton. So basically turn her into one of the models. The Skeleton. What does he have to hire someone to do that? I don't know, because I assume he was doing it himself.

So he- And is the other guy dodgy or is this something he does non-dogey? Again, I don't know. I don't know why he has this skill set. I can see like a taxidermist for people and it's quite legal or is it something like- That's not a thing. I'm also a serial killer. But I mean, someone's got to be able to do it.

I imagine, like, what lot of those skeletons now, probably not even real, are they? No, no. But back then, they would have all just been real. That's right. Donated bodies. So someone must have had the skills to do it, right? Legally.

Yeah, that's right. And maybe this... Yeah, they're from the University, or... This goes. If you see them or something, yeah. Or maybe he's just about to become... It's crazy man number two. So he brings this guy Charles chapel to the hotel. He introduces himself at this point as Henry Gordon.

So it's another alias who says Henry? Home says I'm Henry Gordon. Chappell's gonna die. I just realized. No, but it's weird. I'm Henry Gordon and his people saying the hotel like no you're not shut up Yeah, see I don't That's what I mean is he still firing and hiring regularly? I mean he's killing all his employees as well So there must be a pretty high turnover of staff That's a thing when people go missing nobody else. Is any fucking question? Do you ever read the resume or he just hires anyone anyone? Well he had a thing for blonde women so

she's I'm crazy myself out here. Not only am I not blonde or a woman I'm also alive well after he must have been dead. I'm also not blonde so we're okay. But I could dye my hair blonde. Oh god. Okay., how lonely are you? He seems charming. I think I could change him. I could be the one that does get away. Maybe you could only kill every second weekend. Yeah, just a bit hobby.

Anyway, so he takes Henry Gordon now, takes Charles Chapel, shows him the body. And after some discussion they agree that Chapel would put the arms in a bag and take them home to articulate them and homes would do the rest of the body. It's so gross. So he hires him again a couple of times, takes him to the same room, another time it's to process a body of a man, a third job was for a body of another woman and after chapel finished the third skeleton homes refused to pay the money he owed him due to some financial trouble and so chapel then refused to give home back the skeleton and kept it inside his home and it was later used as like evidence much much later so there's

just like a full skeleton in Charles Cappell's place. But he's holding ransom. Charles also sounds like he's asking very few questions. Oh no, it doesn't make any sense. I don't know how. A third body in your basement? All right. As long as you can pay, you can pay, right?

It's really, right? Yeah, if you just go past the two oversized furnaces. Yeah. Don't take the second or third on the left, because that's just a brick wall. The vat of acid. What's that acid, lime, et cetera. You know, some of the other things you mentioned, I'm really just trying to show you that I've

been paying attention. Now, a little bit later, I think it was about 1892, 1893. But I'd be 1892. He's on a business trip in Boston. I don't know what kind of business. Entreprenewing slash murdering. He meets a... He's business card. Entrepreneur slash murderer. He met a railroad ares. Her name was Mini Williams and he introduced himself to her as Henry Gordon. So he's just got different names all the time. They started dating and

then entered into a relationship and although home set to return to Chicago, he kept in touch with Mini and sent her love letters. He's married also still at the same time. In February of 1893, she moved to Chicago and she contacted him and he offered her a job at the hotel as his personal stenographer and she accepted, so now she's working for him, and they rekindle their relationship, and then he was able to persuade Mini to transfer the deed to her property in Fort Worth, Texas, to a man named Alexander Bond.

Who do we think Alexander Bond is? Another alias for Holmes, correct. And who does she think Alexander Bond is? Who knows? And she is such a... How convincing is this guy? He must be. They haven't even known each other long enough.

He's like, He's a photos of this guy, Is he really good looking? He's pretty good looking. Quite a must at least. I don't think I want to see him. No, you don't. But no, he doesn't look that murdery though. You know how like,

Charles Manson looks fucking murdery? This guy just looks like a normal person. But anyway, so... He's got a lot of the really successful ones too. They're like... Well, that's a good, I suppose that's how you get away with it. They're like, go to their kids' soccer practice and the coach and stuff like that. There's normal people. My kids' soccer coach? Billy! Not Billy!

Right, so in April of 1893, so only a few months later, she did sign the bond, the property over to only a few months later. She did sign the bond, the property over to Alexander Bond. And then Holmes proposed to Williams. So he's yes. Next to the fairness. He has to marry you. He's already married twice and killed off a mistress, but he's going to get married again. He got down on one knee behind her and then someone pushed her. So he proposes and then he says, Hey, don't you invite your sister Annie to come visit? So Annie Williams comes and visits them in Chicago and they get along quite well homes and he's soon to be sister-in-law. They get along well, he gives her a tour of the hotel. Great, maybe this

is finally recovered, he's gonna go good. Now while working in his office one day, Holmes asked Annie to go inside his office vault to get a file for him. While she was inside the vault, Holmes locked her inside and turned on the gas line that led to the vault killing her. About the same time, at mini-Williams also vanished.

But we're not sure what happened to Mini. No, but she probably just went to a wedding. Oh, thank you. And no hire. Yeah, she wouldn't go married without him. So you didn't even bother giving a story for her? She's just vanished. But we don't know, well. But did Alexander Bond get the deed?

Yep, oh. And not long after this, Holmes left Chicago. Now where are we? Could he possibly go? To Fort Worth. Fort Worth, Texas, where he had inherited property. That's convenient, so convenient. There he sought to construct another castle,

another hotel, along the lines of his Chicago one. But he abandoned this project, not really sure why. And he sort of continued to move throughout the United States and Canada. He moved around a fair bit. Another interesting fun point he married Georgiana Yoke in 1894 in Denver, Colorado. So now he's got three wives. Three wives and two dead

mistress. Two dead mistresses. He's a busy man. Now in July of 1894, he was arrested and briefly incarcerated for the first time for a horse swindle that ended in Civil War. Well, there's one crime that's going to bring down the greatest serial killer of all time. It's horse swindle. Look, I've stood outly by so far. Right, fair enough, you've killed and dismembered your wives and their daughters. Fine. But horse swindling, I draw the line! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha it's Swindle on the main street of Fort Worth, not in this town, sunny Jim, or whatever you're calling yourself this week. No, that's right, I'm calling myself sunny Jim. All right, you're under arrest. Sunny Jim, so for all the he got arrested for was horse, swindle.

Now he was bailed out, but while he was in jail. You see, you heard anything as he probably didn't even do that. Yeah, probably. And while in jail, he struck up a conversation with a convicted train robber named Marion Hedge Path. Oh no, is it a woman? No. I was a Marion man.

Marion, yeah, good point. And I was just finding that's John Wayne's real name. Marion. It's Marion. You change it to John, wouldn't you? John Wayne, one of the black beasts. Marion Wayne. Tough guys, sort the 20th century

Marian anyway, so Marians in prison serving a 25-year sentence now Holmes starts chatting to him because he's concocted a plan to swindle an insurance company out of $10,000 By taking out a policy on himself and then faking his death So who's faking their death? Holmes. This is an idea Holmes has had cool and he He's speaking to hedgepith, and he promises, he promises him a $500 commission in exchange for the name of a lawyer who could be trusted, like a dodgy lawyer. Sure. You're a crook.

You're going to know a dodgy lawyer. And if you tell me the lawyer's name, I'll give you $500 when I pull off this $10,000 insurance heist. Right? 500 bucks when it all when I pull off this $10,000 insurance heist right so Holmes is directed to a young attorney named Jepp the Howe come on Jess seriously I'm just I coughed these names Jepp the Jepp the how do you spell Jepp the JP THA Jepp the Jepp the J. J. J. J. Jepther. Oh, come on. Come on. Jepther. Okay.

Now Jepther, she's treating us like absolute mugs, hey. I feel like a bloody idiot. Jepther. Jepther thought Holmes' plan was brilliant. He's like, that's a great idea. Of course he bloody did. Jepther. Unfortunately though, Holmes' plan to fake his own death failed when the insurance company

became suspicious and refused to pay out. So he didn't press the claim, instead he can cook to a similar plan. When he walked in and tried to claim it, like, Hello. I'm suspicious of something. Something feels weird about that you're collecting your... Hello, I'm dead. Money please.

Money please. Hashtag I'm dead money please. I'm really forcing the hashtag, so I'm sorry. Anyway, so it didn't work for him, but instead he's like, okay, we'll do a similar plan, but this time we'll use my good buddy, Pretzel. Pretzel has been all this time. He's been around, he's hanging out. Pretzel agreed to fake his own death so that he and his wife could collect on the $10,000 life insurance policy, which she was to split with homes and the attorney Jeppza.

Right, so they're gonna fake his death and then everybody splits the money. It's a lot of money back then too. Like, that's a huge amount of cash. So it's like a million dollar life insurance. Sweet, it's plenty of money for a problem. Yeah, and so everybody's gonna really make a good money, make a good living from it.

Oh, I feel like that home is just gonna swindle this in his favor somehow. Do you reckon? Yep. So the scheme, which was to take place in Philadelphia, was that pretzel would set himself up as an inventor under the name BF Perry, and then be killed and disfigured in a lab explosion.

And Holmes was gonna find an appropriate could have it apply the role of pretzel, right? So he's gonna, who's it's gonna I recognize you pretzels I bet you what are you again is there any more appropriate cadaver for pretzel pretzel than pretzel your spot on he murdered pretzel yes but what I don't understand did he they created a fake identity as well. They're credulous identity, um, instead of... Yeah, but hold on, hold on. Hello, I'm an inventor. If you're going to invent a fake identity, why does it have to be you? You could just invent this identity, then get the body, and then just call it, yeah, that body, that was David Jones. Can we have the insurance? We

pull that on David Jones. I guess they needed to see him alive for some reason, but yeah, I kind of agree with you there Dave like I said at the beginning There are a lot of questions Sorry, you know, so I don't understand it. What happened in the love explosion He instead of coming going and finding a body and disfiguring he's like I'm just gonna kill pretzel and said so he did He murdered him. He knocked him unconscious. He said to pretzel there's there's the body, and pretzels like where it is, like there, and he's pointing at him, and then he hit him out of the head. It's chilling.

He knocked him unconscious with chloroform, and then set his body on fire. Oh, no, no, no, that is awful. Don't, he's just gonna stop trying to give yourself a cash prize, everybody. No, no, you did it one time, and it was funny, let it go. You guys have been saying it off-mic all night. Just really no energy there.

But so, just to recap, chloroform, he's not dead from the chloroform. He's dead from being set on fire. Ah, that is really awful. And so then Holmes proceeds to collect the insurance payout on the basis of the genuine body of his friend pretzel. Look, there it is. But, homes then went on to manipulate pretzels unsuspecting wife into allowing three of her five children, Alice, Nelly and Howard to be in his custody.

And the eldest child and the baby remained with Mrs. Pretzel, who doesn't know her husband is dead. Where do they think pretzel is? Yeah, hiding in London. He's told them they're hiding in London. And then he and the three pretzel children travel through Northern United States and into Canada. And simultaneously, he's escorting Mrs. Pretzel

along a parallel route all while using various aliases and lying to Mrs. Pretzel, considering her husband's death. So he's saying he's just, he's in hiding in London. And we're gonna, we're gonna meet up with him at some point. I'm gonna, but they're traveling together? No. No. Parallel root.

He's like sending her one way and he's going a different way with three of her children. I don't, exactly. It doesn't make any sense why this is happening. All the while still maintaining whichever wife is living with now I don't even remember which one of these so the wife is adopted these three kids with no she's got no idea about the three kids Oh, she's back home she's back home. What's it? Why she not worthy of death? Why it's so weird that he's like he's falling so yeah, maybe it's that's just real love also the other one

Yeah, I didn't even consider that I thought it was actually falling in love But it's no I think there's a manipulative bus Well, I mean well you don't marry someone just for oh no no no You got a marry for love whatever your name is now. Yeah none of us know H.H. H.H So that's terrifying. So even like, it's really strange, but in Detroit, just prior to entering Canada, Mrs. Pretsil is only a few blocks away

from where he's also staying with three of her children. She doesn't know where her children are, but at one point, they were only a matter of blocks away from each other. Guys, what do we have to do with the body count? We're really not sure to be honest. I reckon it's past all other episodes combined. What have you got on me now? Let's start counting now. Dave, give me a number. Will there be a body count at the end? Like a suspected number of victims?

Oh yeah. You and I will take a guess each. Yeah, that would be really fun. Although again. That will be really fun. Although again. That will be really fun. It's a bit undisputed. Undisputed. It's a bit undisputed. It's a bit undisputed. It's a bit undisputed.

I am undisputed. Now, Holmes's murder spree finally ended when he was arrested in Boston on November 17 in 1894. A pig swindling. After being. On his daddy's farm. After being tracked there from Philadelphia by the Pinkerton, so you ever heard of the Pinkerton's family of pigs? I looked this up. This is kind of interesting actually. No, I don't know

Pinkerton founded as the Pinkerton National Detective Agency is a private security guard and detective agency established in the United States by Alan Pinkerton in 1950 and in the United States by Alan Pinkerton in 1850. And Pinkerton became famous when he claimed to have foiled a plot to assassinate President elect Abraham Lincoln, who later hired Pinkerton agents for his personal security during the Civil War. So they're like, this is like super cool detective agency. Wow, okay. Yeah, so that's- There's a Weezer album named Pinkerton.

Maybe that's where it's from. I think it might be. So the police have been suspicious of Holmes ever since his former cellmate, Marion, started talking. Right, so he was sort of talking to the police about this guy. Was he bragging to Marion and paid his murders? No, Marion kind of dogged on him because he never paid him the $500 that he promised him. Oh, see. No honor among thieves. Yeah, so he never paid up. So his payback, Marion, shared the information with the police about like, oh, he's a dodgy, this dodgy insurance claim that he's going to make. So they're kind of a little

bit suspicious of him anyway. Now while they initially had very little evidence to convict him with, they did have his outstanding warrant for stealing a horse in Texas. So they arrest him on that basis. And he was terrified of being sent back to Texas apparently where the punishment would be rough and ready. And he confessed to the insurance scant, rough and ready is apparently what he said. I don't really know, but he didn't want to go back to Texas because it was going to be punished. So he confessed to the insurance scam, but not the murder of pretzel. He claimed that he'd gotten a body from a doctor in New York

who shipped it to Philadelphia, where he was living at the time. That's a much more believable story. And using his medical knowledge to fit the body into a trunk. And he actually nearly got away with that story. But then the inspector remembered that when the body was first discovered it was in full rigamortis, meaning the person had died recently.

So the inspector asked what technique homes had learned to stiffen a body after rigamortis had been broken, and he didn't have the answer for it, so like the game was up. They got it! How clever is that though? They're like, oh really? Well, he'd been shipped in.

I didn't know you could put a body back into Rigamordis when it's out of Rigamordis, mic drop. Tism had an album called D Rigamordis. There you go, well maybe he was a Tism fan. Was that named after Pinkerton? Probably. Right, so then the police began interviewing the employees at the castle, like the hotel back in Chicago.

Who was left. Yeah. Now the caretaker was a guy called Pat Quinlan. He informed police that he was never allowed to clean the second floor. So they're like, well, this seems dodgy. So they begin this thorough investigation over the course of a month and they uncover all of the torture chambers and secret passageways on the upper floor. Inside a large stove on the third floor floor they found a piece of gold chain,

women's hair and a woman's shoe. Now, suspecting that the chain belonged to mini-Williams? That was a terrible meal. No nutritional value whatsoever. So they think this might belong to mini, so they took it to a local jeweler who had sold jewelry to mini in the past and he confirmed that it was hers. So she died in an oven of some kind. So it was torturing them as well.

So it was also a room, a hanging room where he would just hang them. Oh, this is where we hung out in between murders. The hanging room. We moved into the hanging room in five. If you say yes to that offer, you're an idiot. Yeah, I'm going to get into hanging room in five. Um. Have you said yes to that offer? You're an idiot. Yeah, I'm passive idiot. The police, they later looked inside, home just office vault, and found several scratch marks and marks of what appeared to be a woman's shoe.

He later stated in his confession that the shoe print in the vault came from Annie Williams during her violent struggle before she died. Uhhhh. When the police finished on the upper floors they moved their investigation down into the basement and then they found a pile of human bones mixed with animal bones, a dissection table covered with dry blood and a pile of bloody women's clothes. Bloody women's clothes. Everywhere, I leave them everywhere. I leave them all over the bloody basement. So he wouldn't even

clean, I just dry blood everywhere, He didn't even clean up after himself. I love that that makes it grosser than he was cleaning. Okay, this is like the time you had to have a whole new crematorium built for you because you just didn't like the idea of anybody else's dust being mixed up in yours. Still freaks me out. Okay, well, what freaks me out is he didn't clean up the blood on the dye section paper. Yeah, okay.

Horses, of course, we all have our thing. Because one thing about Jess is that she likes us. Heral killers clean. I do, I like him tidy, anyway. Now the investigators dug up the line pits and found skeletal remains of homes as victims. The line had turned most of the remains into dust, but they identified two strands of hair,

one brown and one fair in two spots in the clay, and the strands match the respective hair colors of mini and Annie Williams. So there's some found there bodies. Investigators also found a pile of lime with female footprint on it. They suspected that the footprint came from mini and they also looked inside the acid pit

and found several bones at the bottom. One part of the basement investigators unearthed several bones belonging to a child as soon as they were six to eight years old and maybe we can assume is Pearl, Julia's daughter. That's just getting so sad. This is fucked. They also found a dress that they suspected had belonged to Julia and they showed it to her former husband and he confirmed it was hers. So it's pretty, oh it's pretty fucked. Three five and later explored a nearby tunnel that led from the basement to the street. And the tunnel ended in a hollow sounding wall.

And after the firemen had torn it down, a plumber lit a match just to be able to see so he lit a match for life. Oh dear. And accidentally caused an explosion powerful enough to shake the whole building. Oh, we happened to the firemen in the plumber. Oh, so many of the men were injured

and had to be taken to hospital, but they, I don't think anybody died, they were just injured. And afterwards, investigators found that the fumes that caused the explosion were coming from an oil tank hidden behind the wall, right? And homes, like, he had no explanation for the oil tank. There was no reason for that, but the chemists who examined the oil

stated that the fumes were strong enough to kill someone and less than a minute. So homes later stated that the bodies that were found in the basement were bought from a man who stole them from a local cemetery, but he could name neither the man nor the cemetery. So what was he doing with that oil? No, nobody knows. There's no explanation for it. And that's a problem. He changed his story so often and there's like, and he was known for lying that there's no solid answers for somebody's existence. Oh, I'll lie it too. Well, well, well.

Well, that's too much. That's over the edge, matey. No. Okay, we're towards the end now if that makes you feel any better. Hopefully he's not going to kill again from that, right? Now he's done. I'm pretty glad that he... I thought you, when when you said at the start it was a sad end was he was gonna die a happy old man in a nursing home you know with three wives. Three beautiful wives and two of which is still alive and a third

just a bucket of bones which he jacked up into every evening. No like real just like real idyllic retirement, but... Joking up into a bucket of bones. Yeah, that was a fucking say. You've changed me today, Jess. Today. You did this today. You made me do this.

So he's sitting in prison in Philadelphia now. He's confess to the insurance scam and there's all these different investigations happening into you know like firstly that the castle but they're also looking into the Philadelphia police are trying to unravel the pretzel situation in particular. Unravel the pretzel. In particular that they're trying to find these three children that are missing that he had custody of so Alice N Nelly and Howard. Oh yeah, well, I remember them. There was a detective, a detective guy, and he was tasked with finding answers.

And he's quest for the children, much like the search for Holmes' castle in Chicago. It received a lot of publicity, so the story of him searching for these children got quite a bit of publicity. And his eventual discovery of their remains essentially sealed homes as fate at least in the public mind so it's kind of like getting out he's a bad guy because he found their remains. Wait that was a... That already found his torture chamber. Yeah I know yeah. That could have just... He didn't know it was there. I do have how the children were killed but I might skip that. Thank you. Okay. There is one

knacker I'll leave it. Let's just imagine that worst thing possible and it's probably worse. Yep, pretty much. So in October of 1895 Holmes was put on trial for the murder of Benjamin Petzel pretzel and was found guilty in sentence to death. I say he killed pretzel as well. Yeah, he did that, he did that ago, remember for the insurance fraud? Oh, yeah, sorry, sorry. There's just so many deaths and so many weird names actually being very difficult to keep up.

It has been, I'm sorry. He was convicted of that sentence to death. Sentence to death. By then, it was also evident that he had murdered the pretzel children. And following his conviction, he confessed to 30 murders in Chicago and Toronto. Although some that he confessed to murdering were in fact still alive. So he's like,

yeah, kill this person and kill this person and kill this person. So he's full, he's lying, he's like full of shit. So that's why at one point he confesses to about 27 murders, then writers are about to hang in, he's like, only killed two people. Bang, gone. It doesn't make any sense. It's so strange. But they did hang him.

They did hang him. But before that, he was paid $7,500, which they would be about $215,000. By the Hurston newspapers in exchange for his confession, but he gave various contradictory accounts of his life, initially claiming innocence and later that he was possessed by Satan. And his propensity for lying made it difficult for researchers to sort of get the truth. That's what I mean when I say there's lots of questions, we still don't have a lot of the answers, because then nobody knows exactly what was happening. Now while writing his confession in prison, Holmes mentioned how drastically his facial

appearance had changed since his imprisonment. He described his new grim appearance as gruesome and taking a satanical cast, and wrote that he was now convinced that after everything he'd done, he was beginning to resemble the devil. And that weed? There's actually a quote from him. I got down here. He says, I was born with the devil in me.

I could not help the fact that I was that I was a murderer No more than a poet can help the inspiration to sing I was born with the evil one standing He's thinking singing oh he's confused poet We'll see him right there. And also like I mean nobody really loves poetry, but it's not murder He said I was born with the evil one standing as my sponsor beside the bed where I was ushered into the world and he has been with me ever since. Creepy. On base 7th 1896 Holmes was hanged at the Philadelphia County Prison for the murder of Benjamin Pretzel. Until the moment of his death Holmes remained calm and amiable, showing very

few signs of fear. Despite this, he asked his coffin to be contained in cement and buried ten feet deep, because he was concerned grave robbers would steal his body and use it for dissection. Oh, and he knows how fucked up that is. Exactly! What a hypocrite! He's like, no, don't do anything weird to my body. That is strange. If he was going to say, because I'm afraid that the devil in me will like bring me back to life and I'll kill again

And I'll be like, oh good on you mate. No, it's just like, oh, I don't touch my body yuck. That's gross I Don't know if this will make you feel better or not. I'm not sure if this is good That's been very quiet. I feel like I need to give Matt a big hug later But um look this guy's mate. I just wish he was still alive so I could... Kick him in the nuts? Just have a stern word to him. No.

And tell him it's not on. Hey! Cut it out! Buster, this is no good. You know, you're not making any friends. And what I mean, not long term. Mm-hmm. Are you... where do you want me to go?

Oh yeah, yeah, I'll sign this. Alright, make it out to HH. Good. And, yeah, no worries, you want my, yeah. Anyway, what were we talking about? Really mate, you're an interesting guy and I think I misjudged you. Yeah, it's probably good to be honest.

It's probably the best of his dead. And this is kind of weird. Holmes, his neck didn't snap when they hung him. Instead, he was strangled to death, twitching for over 15 minutes before we were pronounced dead, 20 minutes after the trap had been sprung. Well, couldn't have been to an arse guy. So weird. So weird. Really weird. I do have some fun facts.

Yeah. Okay. But I want to say fun. Yeah, I want to, I really, I'm really looking forward to your, your spin on making the end of this fun. I just meant like a, I kind of wrap up. Have I? Is this too fucked?

No, I've enjoyed myself a lot. I want, you bloody watch the law and order S for you and it's worse than this, it's alright. Mert? Mert? You don't watch the law and order special things anymore? Mert, don't let me in the eye anymore. Mertie? Mertie.

It's not me, I'm just telling a story. It's just a human psyche. Remember, it's made up pretzel. You really think that one's called pretzel? Yeah, come on. No, a good point. Clara, love ring? Come on.

None of these. Murder, murder Bellnap? Come on. Bellnap. Pulling your bloody leg. All right. Is it? This has made me, made me feel all the emotions,

mainly angry and sad, but all of them. All of them. All of them. I told my life for a solid minute. That was pretty good. These are started out, right? Didn't it? My life's going to feel like there were two parts.

Oh! Before and after this episode. Well, you probably felt that way after the cremation episode as well. Yeah, I felt a bit sad about that. We've recovered since then. And now it's one of my favorites. On March 7th in 1914, this is quite a while later. The Chicago Tribune reported that with the death of Pat Quinlan, who was the former caretaker of

the the murder castle. I'm just imagining him like as a butler. Was he a butler? I don't know. Yeah, let's say yes. He's just kind of a caretaker sort of, I don't know, watered the pot plants. So once once he had died, they sort of said that the mysteries of Holmes' castle would remain unexplained, because he was sort of gone. He was like that last connection. But sadly, Quinlan had committed suicide by taking strict nine, and his body was found in his bedroom with a note that read, I couldn't sleep. Quinlan's surviving relatives claimed that he had been haunted for several months and was suffering from hallucinations.

I'm imagining for him for some reason still living there but he wouldn't have been so that didn't make any sense in my head but yeah so he was very rough on him. Fun fact number one, that there. Somebody killed themselves. Because they couldn't sleep. Because of the haunting or awful things they'd seen Yeah, so he was aware I don't think he was no, man That would be just as bad that would but obviously once the story came out he would have been aware

A lot of things now make sense When he asked me to grace the death machine me to grease the death machine. I thought it was the ephemism! Yeah, so that's pretty fucked. Now what's interesting is the murder castle was mysteriously gutted by fire in August of 1895. Oh, the year after he died. Yeah.

Now according to newspaper clipping from the New York Times, two men were seen entering the back of the castle between about 8.9 pm. About half an hour later they were seen exiting the building and running away. And several explosions happened and the castle went up in flames. Still unexplained. Yeah, so a bit interesting. So I imagine there are two options there. One of them is that they fucking hated it, they freaked them out and they just wanted to

get rid of it. And the other was that they were somehow involved, right? Well, that was exactly what people thought. Some people sort of believed that they'd broken into the castle and started the fire in order to destroy any remaining evidence that the police hadn't discovered yet. And other people believed that some outrage citizens started the fire to prevent the castle

from becoming a future tourist attraction. Oh, it both makes sense. Yeah. So it was gutted. The building survived, but everything inside was fine. And it remained in use until it was torn down in 1938. What city was this is in Chicago? Chicago. There's a few.

What I know about Chicago. The Wittys city. Wittys city, Michael Jordan Jordan Oprah Winfrey kill hotel That's what you need to know everything in each other Chicago and her hair into that one of the one of the big porn guys What's the big porn guy Ron Jeremy no like I'm a boy boy. Oh, you have no you have no I think the play big boy guy I think you can think of playboy I think a big porn guy

yeah I could think of a vague description playboy playboy he that he that was that's from Chicago I'm pretty sure I'm pretty sure that's in Los Angeles I mean California yeah they moved there in the like in the 80s or something you feel a shit no I watched the documentary about it What was it was it? How the bunny the housemates of what's that show about his girlfriend's was it the the real housewives of you

What was that? Yeah, it was a great show. It wasn't that it was just it was on an aeroplane I think it was like just one of those really sort of dry, stock footage documentaries that they must put together for no money. So good. I think Shiganga was a has-oh, hair international airport, which is the world's busiest airport. Is it really? Because it's a second biggest city. It's also a second city. Oh, yeah, there you go.

Improv. Well, that kind of ties in nicely to what I was about to say because there's a few different like representations of HH homes in various media. So for example the Baltimore Rock Opera Society produced and performed a full-length original rock opera based on homes titled Murder Castle. In May 2013, that's pretty good. Oh, my two favorite things. Murder and musical theatre. No, no, no. Rock opera.

Even better. Oh, no. There was an author called Anthony Boucher. Boucher. And he used H880Tones as a pen name during the 1940s for murder mysteries and magazine reviews. Just kind of interesting uses as a pen name. In the fifth season of American Horror Story, which aired last year, 2015, it predominantly takes place in a hotel and features a character named

James March, who was said to be modeled after home. So like they used his story as a plot for the series of American Horror Story. My housemates watched that and often don't sleep at night. Yeah, I don't watch it. I don't like scary movies. I probably went sleep tonight. Now there's actually a film being made called Devil in the White City. There's a book written called Devil in the White City and they're making the film. It's going to be directed by Martin Scorsese, starring Leonardo DiCaprio. Really, he's gonna be home. He's gonna be home. Wow, he'll probably do a fantastic job.

Yeah. Is that in production? I think so. Well, it's, I saw articles about it very recently, so I think it's kind of in the next few years. Well, keep an eye out for it because you heard it here first, guys. What's it called?

Devil in the White City. And also on the Wikipedia page for H Homes it also mentions that he's the topic in a few podcasts So I think oh so we're cashing in I think we now need to somehow somehow we need to get a Wikipedia page We need to edit that Wikipedia page and be like is also on episode 36 It's one of my dreams Because I love Wikipedia. I love Wikipedia so much. It's one of my dreams. Because I love Wikipedia. I love Wikipedia so much.

It's just one of my dreams to one day have a page. Okay. Oh man, it's because I love it. As far as, did you know that you would say achievable dreams? I reckon that's one you could just knock up yourself. Yeah, it's a bit of a deal. But it gets taken now.

I would never, I would never, because I respect Wikipedia so much. I would never do that. I would. I'd like to earn my page. Okay. That gentleman was my report on HHH Homes. Wow, that was quite the journey, I'm gonna be honest. Oh, and just to tidal together.

So he admitted to like about 30 murders and then took it back. They think it may have actually been closer to 200. That is one thing to get back to. Oh, 100. They suspect some say, 100, some say 150 150 up to 200 is sort of the guess. But again, no official confirmation because the bodies were just in bits. And you know how like it, how it worked, like populations work where you wipe out 200 people

like the amount of potential people who'd be alive now a couple hundred years later He he basically took away That he probably did the world a lot of favors because you know over population that sort of stuff you have really done a 180 Look, I'm just saying I'm just looking for a silver lining here Silver knife into your guts. Yeah Silver knife into your guts. Yeah. Imagine being Leonardo DiCaprio. He's gonna have to, like,

is anyone in those actors who really does the research and bodies, I don't know if he's method, but he's. But he definitely, you'd have to research a lot. Oh, and just to be that guy, and they say being a good actor, as you would know Jess, you have to really, you have to find something in the guy in the character to... Connect with.

Damn? I don't know. I don't know. You've seen my acting. Yeah. You have to find something in the guy, in the character to... Connect with. Fan? I don't know. I don't know. You've seen my acting. It's just me. Make me feel like murdering a bunch of people in my room. My comedy will make you want to go on a killing spree. Anyway, let's wrap it up and go home to our families if they're still there.

Well thanks for listening. Let's do another shout out to our favorite serial killer fan, Cody. Cody, please, please be cool. Yeah, be okay in your life, Cody. But no, great topic, because it is fascinating. I bet you, I bet you we found it because of that movie. Well maybe, who knows how Cody found it? Cody probably knows how we found it.

Well I come a, I've heard of the murder hotel man before. Yeah, that's impressive. And so I heard my friend when I was mentioning last night that I was doing this report. Because I also understand the fascination, I get a bit, I read into these things but then I do it alone at night and I think I wish I hadn't read that before bed. Yeah. So it's fun to joke about it with friends and hopefully I'll drive home, forget about it and sleep all night.

Is it fun to do in a big, dark, empty warehouse? No, no! Can you guys walk me to my car? Yes, because it's just out there front. See it from the door. Thank God. It's next to your car. I will be okay. Well, thanks so much for listening, guys. If you, too, would like to have us talk about your favorite serial killer,

don't forget that you can tweet in at DoGoOnPod or on Facebook or email beginning a lot of lovely emails like to do a a big shout out to Thurgl in Ireland who's been doing it a bit tough lately and has been founding a lot of fun in our podcast which was one of the niceest emails we've ever read right? Yeah it was the first the first. Thanks, Fagel. So thank you so much for your email Fagel. And you can like us on Facebook as well and Twitter and all that stuff. We try to do a couple of posts every week

and always enjoy getting into where. Yeah, so there's always like the- The light chat with the- There's always extra little in- No, there it is. There's always a little extra in jokes about that week's episodes and stuff like that and little maybe callbacks or stuff that you'll get if you've listened to most of the show, so...

Check that out. Thank you very, very much guys. Up until next week. Take care and goodbye. Bye! Oh, why does... Are you working way too hard for way too little? There's never been a better time to consider a career in IT. You could enjoy a recession-resistant career in a rewarding field, with plenty of growth opportunities and often flexible work environments.

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