Do Go On - 376 - Clever Hans, The Smartest Horse

Episode Date: January 4, 2023

Clever Hans was a German horse that could apparently solve math problems, tell the time and even spell - but was the horse telling THE TRUTH?This is a comedy/history podcast, the report begins at approximately 03:44 (though as always, we go off on tangents throughout the report). Support the show and get rewards like bonus episodes: patreon.com/DoGoOnPodLive show tickets: https://dogoonpod.com/live-shows/  Submit a topic idea directly to the hat: dogoonpod.com/suggest-a-topic/ Check out our new merch! : https://do-go-on-podcast.creator-spring.com/ Twitter: @DoGoOnPodInstagram: @DoGoOnPodFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/DoGoOnPod/Email us: [e-mail] Check out our other pods:Book Cheat: https://play.acast.com/s/book-cheatPrime Mates: https://play.acast.com/s/prime-mates/Listen Now: https://play.acast.com/s/listen-now/Who Knew It with Matt Stewart: https://play.acast.com/s/who-knew-it-with-matt-stewart/ Our awesome theme song by Evan Munro-Smith and logo by Peader Thomas Do Go On acknowledges the traditional owners of the land we record on, the Wurundjeri people, in the Kulin nation. We pay our respects to elders, past and present.  REFERENCES AND FURTHER READING:https://www.damninteresting.com/clever-hans-the-math-horse/ https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1911/07/23/104872007.pdf https://medium.com/lessons-from-history/clever-hans-the-horse-that-could-count-561cdd5a1eab https://www.hestasaga.com/en/2021/01/29/part-1-the-discovery-of-wilhelm-von-osten/ https://www.mentalfloss.com/article/81063/story-lady-wonder-psychic-horse Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Just jumping in really quickly at the start of today's episode to tell you about some upcoming opportunities to see us live in the flesh. And you can see us live at the Melbourne International Comedy Festival 2024. We are doing three live podcasts on Sundays at 3.30 at Basement Comedy Club, April 7, 14 and 21. You can get tickets at dogo1pod.com. Matt, you're also doing some shows around the country. That's right. I'm doing shows with Saren Jayamana, who's been on the show before. We're going to be in Perth in January, Adelaide in February, Melbourne through the festival in April, and then Brisbane after that. I'm also doing Who Knew It's in Perth and Adelaide. Details for all that stuff at mattstuartcomedy.com.

It's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials.

Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy respons essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. We can wait for clean water solutions. Or we can engineer access to clean water. We can acknowledge indigenous cultures. Or we can learn from indigenous voices. We can demand more from the earth. Or we can demand more from ourselves. At York University, we work together to create positive change for a better tomorrow. Join us at yorku.ca slash write the future. Hello and welcome to another episode of Do Go On.

My name is Dave Warnke and as always I'm here with Matt Stewart and Jess Perkins. Hello. Hello. How good is it to be alive? It's so good to be here. This is the first one we've recorded together in a little while. Yeah. It's been a few weeks.

I've missed you. We've missed you too. Deep within my soul. We've missed your face, Jess. I have been the most depressed I've ever been in my life and never leave me again. I'm so sorry to hear it. Oh my God. These have been some of the worst weeks of my entire existence

i felt empty oh my god i was lost i roamed the streets well if it makes you feel any better there wouldn't have been a day that went by where dave and i didn't think and talk of you fondly or yeah well i won't go into details. That's right. I mean, some days we were really sticking the food in. Can you believe what she wears to the recording? It's very unprofessional. It's mostly about your fashion choices. But apart from that, we really, really missed you. So, I mean, the episodes have still been coming out.

We did a bunch in advance. So, Matt and I went to the UK to do some book cheat and who knew it with Matt Stewart podcast. And there was one day where we were listening back to one of our episodes that was about to go up that night. And, you know, we're making sure that, you know, it was all ready for upload. So we were driving through Bristol. It was the Night Witches episode.

And we were listening to it at night, at 10 o'clock at night, driving through the tight, tight streets of Bristol. And Jess, your voice came on and we both thought at the same time, I miss Jess. I said it out loud and Matt said, I was just thinking that. streets of bristol and jess your voice came on and we both thought at the same time i missed jess i said out loud and matt said i was just thinking that it's very funny and very sweet um but yeah to the listeners um there's been very little change so that's right let's not harp on about

our feelings too long that's right you know they don't want to hear it if they do want to hear any of our uh feelings feelings uh they can hear them on uh book book cheat live from glasgow uh with cory will we talked about the hound of the baskervilles a sherlock home special i know that one and uh yeah a couple of the who knew it's with matt stewart's uh have gone up as well the one from fuck i can't remember Leeds and the one from where's the other place what was the last place we Bristol you just mentioned it and yeah unfortunately the Birmingham episode is having

some technical issues sound wise but hopefully fingers crossed it wouldn't be a pod tour if at least one episode didn't have some technical sound issues possibly two the London bookshed is also looking a bit sus, but we're trying to have it together. We'll get there.

But we're back. Great time. We're back together. Bigger, badder, better than ever. And the way this show works, Matt, what is, how would you describe it? I was really hoping that one of you would describe it. I've got it. Meanwhile, I've forgotten.

Each week, one of the three of us goes away, reports research as a topic. They bring that research back to the other two who listen politely and never interrupt with silly little riffs. Oh, right. Yep. Okay, that rings a bell. Yeah. And we usually get onto topic with a question.

It is Dave's turn to report on his research this week. Dave, do you have a question? Okay, my question for you is what kind of- Dave, I asked if you have a question. Sorry, my answer to your question is yes. Okay, great. Now please ask your question. Okay, thank you so much.

Sorry, it's been a while for me as well, obviously. Yeah, you've forgotten how to have a conversation and be polite. Fuck you. I have forgotten. And we're back. Okay, my question is what kind of animal was Clever Hans? Clever Hans. A horse.

It's right. It's a horse. Yes. Do you know Clever Hans? Incredibly vaguely. Oh, my goodness. I'd never heard of Clever Hans before. I saw it in the hat.

Yeah, well, I must have seen it in the hat at some point. A horse. I'm sorry. I didn't do any joke answers. I just wanted a point. Great. Matt, just a joke answer. Just one for a bit of fun.

What about... Come on, a joke animal. A joke animal. What's the funniest animal? Okay, what about a quokka? Good one. That's a funny animal. That's funny.

I love them. What would you say? What's a funny... A beaver. Yeah, beavers are pretty funny, yeah. I think of the quokka as the Australian beaver. Yeah, the Australian beaver oh beavers are pretty funny yeah i think of the quokka as the australian beaver yeah i agree i saw a video recently a tiktok of a of a beaver being fed with a syringe and the milk runs out heroin heroin in milk and then the milk runs out and

the beaver's like making this very cute squeaking noise and trying to get more milk out of it and fighting with the wrangler who's trying to get the syringe out. It's very cute. I was like, fuck, beavers are cute. Anyway. They are cute, but they're not clever like a horse. Yes. Like clever Hans.

Oh, my God, exciting, a clever horse. I'm impressed you've heard of this. Matt, how about you? Do you have any knowledge of the Hans? No. My guessing is a German horse based on the name Hans. It is a German horse. Well done.

And, yeah, you know, I'm guessing maybe he clops once if he thinks Germany will win the next World Cup game. He'll clop twice if he thinks it'll be a draw. You are not far off. Seriously. It's that, but maybe slightly more impressive. Anyway, let's talk about it. In the summer of 1904, a horse called Clever Hans and its owner were the main topic of

conversation in all of Berlin. So hang on. The horse's name is Hans and then it's later been given the title of Clever Hans or the horse's name is Clever Hans. It's mostly just Hans but people have... Okay, great. Yeah. I just wanted to check.

That's right. It's not nominative determinism. Yeah, okay. It wasn't a race horse. They just named Clever Hans. Actually, let's quiz this horse. Let's see if this horse is clever. But why was it the topic of conversation?

Well, let's find out. Our non-horse-based main character in this story is a man named Willem van Osten. Oh, that's a good name. I love Willem. Willem. And anything von. Willem. Could be Willem.

Lil Helm, I guess some people say. Oh. I never knew that was the same thing. I don't think it is. So it looks like Wilhelm. I think Willem Dafoe might be spelled slightly different. Anyway, Wilhelm, Willem, either way. I think Willem Dafoe might be spelled slightly different. Anyway, Wilhelm, Willem, either way.

I think Willem Dafoe's real name is William and for some reason he just started calling himself Willem. I think that is true. I mean, he is very good at playing the weirdest people you've ever seen.

And maybe it's not an act. What do you mean? I think Green Goblin's really cool. Very normal. Or that weird character from Speed 2 that's got a bunch of leeches in the bath.

I don't remember that at all. I don't remember that either. No one's seen Speed 2 that's got a bunch of leeches in the bar. I don't remember that at all. I don't remember that either. No one's seen Speed 2. No, exactly. That's probably why. I'm a Speed purist. But he's good. Dennis Hopper, very hard actor to follow.

I think the best bad guy ever in Speed 1. Speed 2, Willem takes it to the next level in terms of insanity. Yeah, cool. With leeches in a bar. That's crazy. So, Wilhelm von Osten, Wilhelm von Osten, was a high school mathematics teacher

who was into science, including phrenology, the now discredited pseudoscience that used the measurement of bumps on the skull to predict mental traits. Bumps on the skull? I don't think you should have bumps on your skull. Well, I do.

Back here. There's one. Oh, what's one Oh what's that? What's that? The sign of a genius No I think you've just hit your head Ow Are you alright? But he was interested in science nonetheless

Von Osten lived in northern Berlin in a five storey house Which is too tall And in the backyard Agreed All those stairs It's two to five storeys It's so funny because as a kid, I lived in a single-story house, and double-story houses seemed like the pinnacle.

That was so cool. I wanted stairs. Why? And now I live in the third floor of an apartment building, and I'm like, dude, it's fucking stairs. I hate them. Your dream come true. But they're beautiful stairs.

They're beautiful stairs. I love that building. I think it's all very true. But they're beautiful stairs. They're beautiful stairs. I love that building. I think it's all very nice. It is a nice building. Yeah, the stairs, the tiles. Yeah, but up and down them all the time. Oh, my gosh. Trying to take the bins out.

Got to do it on the stairs. Maybe there's a reason why you've got the strongest legs in the game. That's right. That's where it all came from. Yeah. Before you moved into there, your legs were weak. Yeah. Weak little pins. You were where it all came from. Yeah. Before you moved into there, your legs were weak. Yeah.

Weak little pins. You were just average podcaster legs. But now you've got the strongest legs in podcasting. That's true. That's true. You're right. Was that a category that was missed at the podcast awards this year? Yeah. Yeah.

And I'm furious about it. I know Jess hasn't said anything, but she should be furious. I've written some angry letters. Let me tell you. So he lived in a five-story house and in the backyard he kept a horse. The horse's name was Hans and he was an Orlov Trotter. Orlov Trotter. Which is, it's a lot of fun, isn't it?

Okay. And obviously I know heaps about horses. Yeah, are you going to tell us more about Orlov Trotters? Oh, I've got a couple of paragraphs right here. Fantastic. Orlov Trotter, it's the most famous Russian horse. That's where I knew it from. Yeah, Russia.

Yeah. The breed was developed in Russia in the late 18th century by a man called Count Alexei Orlov. It's so funny to talk about it like it's an app or something. Yeah, we developed this horse. Yeah, it's so weird. What we did is we made that horse fuck that horse and we just saw what happened.

Oh, what do you do? I'm a horse developer. Yeah. You're just watching horses fuck, aren't you? Yeah, I think you're just a bit of a perv. That horse is quite fast, but that horse is quite sexy. Yeah, if you're developing anything, it's a boner. You perv, Orlov.

Well, he's notable for a few things, Orlov. One is breeding Orlov trotters, and the other one is promoting the Orlov chicken. Promoting it? To what, the junior vice president? Sort of saluting a chicken. He's well known for it because he lost his mind and he gave a chicken a plum job at the factory.

It is an insane CV, isn't it? I created a horse. I promoted a chicken a plum job at the factory. It is an insane CV, isn't it? I created a horse. I promoted a chicken. Going to a meeting and a chicken walks into the suit. Taking notes. The count's like, it's all right, he's with me. Now I'm imagining a chicken in a suit and that's really cute yeah pecking at a powerpoint presentation so it's it's even weirder because the all of trotter he basically he created that

horse by crossbreeding but the chicken that already existed but he just promoted it by being a big fan it was a hot man we should use more of this chicken hey everybody they all checked out this We should use more of this chicken. Hey, everybody. Y'all checked out this chicken over here? Look at this chicken. I love this chicken. This is a good chicken. Going from town to town, setting up a little market stall.

Have you heard the good word of this chicken? Knocking buckets of chaos out of people's hands. It's the wrong kind of chicken. So what's the right kind of chicken in coordinate Olaf? The Olaf chicken. Oh, he named it. Oh, man. Couldn't he have at least made it fuck one other kind of chicken just to get a slight

variation to call his own? You can't improve perfection. His chicken fucked his horse. Wow. Chicken horse. A chorse? Yeah. Oh, it'd be sad.

It'd be a horse that can't fly. A Hicken. A horse that can't fly. That would be sad. Wouldn't that be sad? It's stretchy. Because its wings wouldn't be strong enough. I mean, chicken wings aren't strong enough to even fly a chicken.

That'd be really bad money to get any sort of leverage from a horse. No, he's right. You're absolutely right. The Pegasus dream will have to wait another day. Count Orloff did both of these things in retirement, but in his career, he had helped Catherine the Great overthrow Tsar Peter III, and then his family became very powerful in the Russian court.

One of his missions... So I did a bit of reading about him, and I found this interesting. One of his missions was to take care of a so-called pretender to the russian throne now known to history as princess tarkanov which translates roughly in russian to princess cockroach no one was calling she wasn't calling herself that at the time people nicknamed her that because she they thought she was uh basically pretending that she was an heir to the throne. And Catherine the Great, who was on the throne, did not like that. So she trusted Count Orlov with taking care of Princess Cockroach.

Wow. This guy really does have a wild CV. And this is his plan. He seduced Princess Cockroach and then tricked her into boarding a boat to Russia with him where she was arrested and then soon died in prison. Oh, wow. Count all off your dog. Yeah, that's a real dog act.

Yeah. Jeez. Not happy about that at all. Yeah. And then he went on to watch chickens and horses. And how do you get from pretend heir to the throne to cockroach? If she survived a nuclear holocaust, I'd get the nickname. Yeah.

I think it's more like Princess Cockroach, Princess Dirtbag over here. Right. Because they're dirty. Yeah, trying to be a bit rude. Nobody likes cockroaches. They're yuck. Sorry to any cockroaches listening. And isn't that the Sydney rugby team's nickname, the cockroaches?

But maybe that started as pejoratively from Queensland. Yeah, isn't it cockroaches and cane toes? Yeah, right. When their sides clash? Yeah. What would we be then? Something real clean and nice, I reckon. What's the cleanest animal?

Yeah, that's a real clean... Probably the beaver. Yeah, the beaver. Sorry, it's sort of clean. Probably the beaver. Yeah, the beaver. The beaver. Sorry, it's on my mind. So anyway, that's a bit of an early detail there, but Hans, the clever horse, or soon to be, is an all-of trotter. Right. So a rare Russian horse owned by Wilhelm von Osten

and according to HesterSaga.com, an Icelandic horse website that I found. I think Hester is a word that means horse in Icelandic. One day, as Mr. Austin was returning home from a ride in his carriage, he noticed that his horse, Hans, was making a wide turn without being asked so that the carriage could pass through the narrow driveway without any problems. Austin was sure that this behavior showed that horses were capable of independent thought. So he began to get excited about the idea from then on and looked for ways to support his thesis.

He's like, oh, that horse made itself get out of the way. It's pretty clever. Yeah. Did horses not have independent thought? Maybe they didn't know back then. Yeah. Yeah, and also I think he's more like, if it can learn that on its own, what could I teach it? But I'm not sure it did learn it on its own.

Just an instinctive thing, I would have thought. I would actually have thought that the carriage driver probably made the horse pull, you know, go wide and did that so many times and then the horse knew to do that. That's just how you train animals to do stuff, is repetition and reward. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Mm-hmm. Like you get a dog to sit down, and then you say, sit, and now it knows how to sit. Oh. You know what I mean? That's how I learned how to sit. Yeah. It took me a while, but I got there.

So I'm dangling a treat over your head. Sit. Yeah. I'll do it now without even a treat. Forcing your head up so your bum goes down. That's how you do it with dogs You don't force their head up You hold a treat above their nose

And they sit down because they're dumb But they're so cute Oh my god they're the best So Austin, Hans' owner, decided to try and teach his horse a few new tricks He taught the horse Sit No sitting is mentioned Oh my god

No rolling over Can you imagine a horse sitting down yeah so weird like cross-legged reading a book yeah in an armchair yeah i can't imagine that actually yeah he haught the he he haught the horse he taught the horse uh left and right by guarding it with a carrot so fairly similar to what you're saying there and when the horse left and right by guarding it with a carrot. So, fairly similar to what you're saying there. And when the horse went for the carrot, he'd say, that's left, Hans, or that's right. I was also teaching it English, or probably German. Yes.

So, it's all been translated. Yeah, yeah. And then he'd continue with up, down, forward, and stop. So, he's teaching those words so that when he says those words, he'll do them? Yeah. Eventually, he was able to say left or right, and the horse would respond even without the treat. Yeah, right. And this is noteworthy, I'm guessing. It's getting there.

Okay. No, I don't know horses. I know you probably look at me and go, this is a horse man. That's a horse guy out there. But I actually don't know horses that well. Okay. Do you know a horse? I've met a few horses in my time, definitely,

but I've never got to know them that well. Yeah. You know, I never spent that much time with them. Yeah, you've really got a wall up. You don't let horses in. You just open yourself up to their beautiful faces. Well, I'm afraid, you know. I've broken hearts before, and we all know how big a horse heart is.

And I just couldn't stand the thought of breaking one of them big old hearts. And you're saying that like you're keeping people and horses away because you don't want to hurt their hearts but I think there might be a little part of you that's protecting your big horse heart. Hey? Hey. The biggest horse heart of all was in you the whole time.

Oh, my God. You've made me see something that was right in front of me all along. That's not a horse. That's a mirror. That's a man. After we finish up today, I'm going to go hug a horse. Hey, how about this? Instead of saying nay, say yes.

Say yay. That's good. That's nice. That's nice. And yeah, okay, so we'll finish up and then we'll go hug some horses. I'm sure there's plenty around in Brunswick. Yeah. There's probably a five-story house with a horse out the back. So he taught it left, right, up, down, forward and stop,

which, you know, is kind of significant, pretty good. Yep. Austen then had plans to teach Hans to count. Remember, Austen is a math teacher. But again, according to Hester Saga, unfortunately, Hans died suddenly due to an intestinal blockage. What? Sadly, that was the end for Hans. But only the beginning for its owner, Van Austin.

What? What? So, hang on. We're like 10 minutes in and the horse is dead. Yeah. This is why I never get close to horses. They just die suddenly. They just die. Intestinal blockages. I'll let you down. never get close to horses. They just die suddenly. They just die.

Intestinal blockages. I'll let you down. It was all blocked up. Needed to poop. What if I told you that that was Hans one? Oh, my God. Hans the first. The OG, though.

The OG, exactly. Special place in my heart. So is he going to fake it like it's a kid's goldfish? Or is he going to... But like it's a kid's goldfish? Or is he going to... But he's tricking himself. So Van Austen truly believed that animals had much more cognitive ability than humans, gave them credit for, and he aimed to prove his theory. To continue his research, the maths teacher decided to try and teach mathematics to different animals

to see who it would stick with. I'm struggling to get to... decide to try and teach mathematics to different animals to see who it would stick with. I'm struggling to get to... So at this point, science did underestimate animals or is this guy a quack? I can't figure out. I can't figure out if this guy is doing great work because in 1904, people didn't realise this stuff. You know what I mean?

Yeah. I still haven't figured it out. You're like, yeah, of course. Of course a horse can do maths. Yeah, yeah. Imagine a time when we didn't know that. So hang on. In 1904 they did know horses could do maths.

Fuck that. It was so stupid back then. I think it's a little bit of column A, a little bit of column B. Right. I think they probably did underestimate animals' abilities, but also perhaps it's a little bit of a quack. He reckons that he can teach them anything. Right.

And I think there are limits. He reckons soon he's going to be able to have a chat with his horse. Yeah. And see, Matt, I reckon in this day and age, I don't think that's quite possible. Right, okay. But I have taught my dog bedtime and he takes himself to bed. See, exactly.

There's some cognitive ability there. That's pretty good. It's very cute. I've taught him how to open doors. Well, push open doors. You say bedtime and he goes to bed. I tell myself bedtime and I do not go to bed. I sit on my phone for another 45 minutes and then regret it.

I really should go to bed. Yeah. Scroll, scroll, scroll. Goose never does that. He never does that because he doesn't have a phone. He's only two. He doesn't get a phone until he's four. So Van Alston's like, all right, I'm going to try a few animals.

First up, he tried a cat who gave him nothing. Yes, because cats are assholes. Exactly. And I say that with love to the cat lovers. I'm sure the cat was like, yeah, I could do that, but I will not. 100%. Cats live their life in their terms. They're definitely capable of independent thought.

Oh, my God, yes. Absolutely. Cats are so God, yes. Absolutely. Cats are so smart and they also just look at you and go, fuck you, feed me. It's funny that his observation was that this horse was capable of independent thought and he's like, how can I harness this? Yeah. Harness this horse.

Horse power. What horse power is? I get it's like, I want to make- Horsepower. Is that what horsepower is? I get it. You finally get it. Oh, I drive a Mustang. It's got a lot of horsepower, which means independent thought. This car's got a mind of its own. It parks itself.

I might be there in 20 minutes. It could take me years. I don't know. It's really up to the car. I've got to beg the car, please. Please. I've got an appointment. I'm running late. I shouldn't have to the car. I've got to beg the car, please. Please, I've got an appointment. I'm running late.

I shouldn't have got this car. Please. I'll just get the tram. So he tried a cat, gave her nothing. Then he tried a bear. Where did he get a fucking bear from? That's quite a jump. It is a huge jump. Yeah, yeah.

It goes cat, raccoon, small dog, big dog, leopard, bear. Okay, right. He skipped all those. He went straight to bear, who apparently was also not on board with learning the numbers. And I think that Van Austen probably also was lucky to escape with his life. Right. Trying to teach a bear to do maths.

Okay. It's because he started too complicated. He gave the bear a whiteboard, whiteboard marker, a very complicated equation on the board, said, well. And it's like, well, you've got to start with the basics. Yeah, come on. Okay. It's so funny.

He figured this out based on a horse, and then he's gone so far away from horses. Because I think he tried a horse and went, oh, that worked. The horse died. You know what? Maybe you can do it with anything. Turns out you can't. So he went back to another horse, which again he named Hans.

This time Hans was an Arabian stallion. And this time the maths seemed to stick. Really? Yeah. Van Austen was able to write a number on a blackboard and then teach Hans to tap his foot until it reached the right number. He'd write three

and then Hans would tap three times. One, two, three. So, yeah, that's pretty good. He can read basically. Read numbers, yeah. And then also the owner would say, three. Oh, okay. Two, three. The next step was-

So there's no point of having it on the board then if he's also saying it. I think eventually he can do recognising. The horse has to know how to pronounce the number. Oh, yeah. But eventually he can recognise the symbols because the next step was teaching Hans symbols for arithmetic. And pretty soon the horse was able to do basic equations and then give the correct answers for basic square roots and even fractions.

Get fucked. That's pretty smart. I can't do that. And I'm pretty sure I have independent thought. Matt, do I have independent thought? Yeah. Yeah, I think I'll allow it. I'll allow it.

If asked by his master, Wilhelm von Osten, what is the sum of three plus two? The horse. Hang on. Okay. How many times would you tap your hoof, Jess? I would tap my hoof. Three plus two. Five times.

Bingo. Yes. You're as smart as a horse. Yes. Clip, clop, clip, clop, clip. Yeah, he did it. He did it. He counts his hooves.

Zero was expressed by a shake of the head. Oh. None. That was good. Thank you. Van Austin started to show off Hans' skill with live street shows. He's busking. Honestly.

And soon large crowds gathered all over Germany to watch Hans. He took it on the road, who had expanded his repertoire to tell the time, keep track of the days of the week and the calendar, differentiate between musical tones, and apparently read, spell, and understand German. What? It's handy, actually, because, I mean, his busking act is his horse, but that is also his transport to the busking locations.

Absolutely fantastic. That's convenient. But eventually Hans became such a star that he started riding Van Austen. Yeah, yeah. I think that makes sense. The power shifts and that can be hard to navigate, but I think the best thing to do is let your horse ride you. Our show, is it?

Our show? Okay. Okay. That's interesting. Well, maybe I don't feel like doing our show today. Yeah, maybe you could go out and do our show on your own tonight. Oh, you're just going to go out there and tell the time, are you? That's very interesting.

Everybody will definitely be throwing you money for that. Here's a 50-year-old man that can spell. Oh, wow. He knows what day of the week it is. Spare me. So the horse he could spell. That's a pretty fun act though it would be pretty funny with an old man doing basic things i'd love to watch that and then sort of bowing in between

you there ask me what day of the week it is it is a thursday honestly that would be great i'd enjoy that more than the horse that's because you are a bit scared of horses by the sounds of it no no i i'm scared of getting close to a horse yeah that's right people say you shouldn't walk behind a horse yeah i won't walk in front of a horse okay i'd prefer to walk behind it because uh if you if the horse can't see you it can't hurt you right emotionally physically it certainly can yeah kicked by a horse yeah emotionally hurt by yes uh i know which one stings more or a broken face versus a broken heart yeah i know which one i'll take only ones ever killed someone you uh you you did a similar thing i used to ride your act to busking, didn't you, back in the day? What was that again?

Back in my unicycle days. Unicycles, that's right. Oh, I forgot about that. Yeah, you did a fantastic unicycle act. And then we got a little too big. Could a unicycle tell the time? Yeah. Impressive.

Genuinely impressive. Yeah, it actually was. At exactly one o'clock every day It would kick me off the unicycle It would buck if you will It's my time So Dispel the Horse would stamp his foot Once for A

Twice for B Three times for C etc Oh my god it takes so long And when he said his favourite band was ZZ Top Oh it took forever Bit of fun there But he became such a spectacle That in 1904 the New York Times And was ZZ Top on it forever. Bit of fun there. But he became such a spectacle that in 1904,

the New York Times wrote a lengthy article on him titled, Berlin's Wonderful Horse. And then the sub-headline is, He can do almost everything but talk. How he was taught. And then it went through. Wow. So the article. Everything but talk. That he was taught. And then it went through. Wow. So the article. Everything but talk. That's a lot of things. Yeah.

Use a microwave. Taxes. So the article notes how it all came about. It says, Hans, the wonderful stallion is nine years old. The horse has never been used for riding or driving. Okay. Ah, there you go. Zero kilometres on the clock.

For over four years, Von Austin has given the animals systematic instructions such as he would give a child. It says, Some years ago, the neighbourhood was astonished by observing the training which Van Austin gave his animal. They beheld him and Hans at a certain hour of the day

standing in the court before a blackboard and a counting machine. Van Austen, undismayed by ridicule for by his method, he had gained the reputation of being an old crank, instructed the stallion by showing him the balls on the machine and influencing how to indicate a number by stamping down his right hoof after van austen had taught hans this simple language the foundation for further education was established he put before him gold silver and copper coins and taught him how to indicate gold pieces by one movement of the foot silver with two copper with three steps when for example three coins were placed in a row h Hans stamped down his foot three times when asked the number.

Okay. What? He could also indicate the value of each coin. Tap once for one mark, two for two marks, three for three, etc. Yeah, that's getting pretty impressive. Okay. He could also answer in fractions, as I said before. What?

Again, from the New York Times, he answers correctly the numbers of how many fours in eight. How many fours in eight, Jess? Oh, my God. Two. How many in 16? No. Stop asking me.

What about this one? The horse just runs away. Yeah. Panics. It just bolts. How many fours in 30? Oh, you're asking me? No idea. Oh, he're asking me? No idea.

He's doing fractions. He's doing fractions. There's no way I could figure that out. Bloody hell. That's pretty impressive. So when he was asked to say it was seven and a half. Sure. But when asked how many threes there are in seven,

he stamps down his foot twice. Okay. And then takes a piss. And that's a fraction. That's it. And then once more for the fraction all right okay hang on so so the a fraction is the same signal as one it feels it feels like he's just just a lot of stomping he's interpreting the stomping yep that was right i think i have to do something else yep perfect perfect That's what I was thinking.

I didn't finish the question yet, but that's right. 18 stomps, that's right. Yeah, that does mean six because every stomp is worth a third. Yeah. At this time. Round of applause, please. What a clever horse. Clever Hans.

Apparently, he could even recognize paintings and stamp out the painter's name. Wow. What? Now we're getting to pretty impressive stuff. If we believe it. Do you believe it? Because between every letter, how long do you stop before he goes on? Or is he like, he just keeps stomping and goes, all right, that was the B.

That was A. B. D, yes uh a again very good m adam adam adam oh adam my friend who painted this adam well done horse adam is of course the nickname that the horse uses for monet course, they were very good friends. This horse and Monet. Adam Monet. Adam Monet.

You don't know the work of Adam Monet? Adam Monet. That's on you, isn't it? Called Monet's younger brother, Adam. Monet. Oh, I'm sorry. You're such a philistine. Oh, I'm sorry.

I thought I was talking to a cultured audience. Come along, horse. Down in South Berlin, they got it. But the article really takes it to the next level with this next feat. Quote, he can distinguish between straw and felt hats, between canes and umbrellas. He can tell the difference between a straw hat and a felt hat. I don't know if that's like Hans, point to the cane that's not an umbrella.

I don't know. That one. That's never explained, but I just found that sentence to be quite funny. That's amazing. He can also tell if somebody's feeling sad or constipated. And if you say you're not, you're lying. You're lying. Knit down the road, there's a stupid horse that's holding a cane up in the rain.

Confused as to why it's getting wet. Stupid horse. Stupid horse. Again from the article, he knows the different colours too. One beholds several coloured rags fastened on a string. A cavalry officer places himself before the horse and Hans is asked to stage the colour of the cap. The horse answers by stamping down his foot three times.

The colour of the third rag, which like the cap, is red. Pretty impressive. Wow. So it's not colour blind. No. Yeah. That's cool. Well done, horse.

He can also tell the time on a watch and indicate the exact hour. What? At the test yesterday, this is from New York Times again, he recognized persons from photographs. Mr. Von Austin placed persons in a row who had given him their photographs, then put the picture before the horse and asked him to indicate the position of the person in the line. Again, Hans recognized the gentleman in civilian clothes who the day before had been introduced to him in uniform. So you can even tell when someone's changed their outfit from the day before. Okay. Pretty good.

And whilst not perfect, it was calculated that Hans could give the right answer about 89% of the time. That's not bad. I don't think I could do that. Yeah. I forget people. Yeah, it's hard. It is hard. Which one's Matt?

Which one's Dave? I don't know. I'm the Matt one. Oh. Yeah, it's hard. It is hard. Which one's Matt? Which one's Dave? I don't know. I'm the Matt one. Oh. Are you? Oh, no. I think I am. I'm not a clever horse.

Honestly, a gun to my head, wouldn't have known. Seven years in. That's why I call you both mate. With a gun to your head, that's a lot of pressure. Too much pressure. How about, let me answer it without the gun. I feel like if someone put a gun to my head and said, what's his name, pointed to Matt, I'd think,

is this somehow a trick question? Like the whole time your birth name has been Gavin or something. Yeah, you go by your middle name, Matthew. Yeah, I'm like, I'm going to die. Yeah. But I'm like, of course I know Matt. It's Matt or Matthew. And they'd be like, Gavin.

But I wouldn't even know because I'd be dead. Yeah, exactly. So just to clarify, is your first name actually Matthew? Yes. Okay. Matthew, and they'd be like, Gavin. But I wouldn't even know because I'd be deaf. Yeah, exactly. So just to clarify, is your first name actually Matthew? Yes. Okay. It's not Gavin. No.

Who's Gavin then? You're really giving me Gavin vibes. And who's this person? Who's Gavin? Who's putting the gun to your head? You know who it is? It's fucking Gavin. Oh, right.

Yeah, I knew it would be him. Gavin's a dog. What a dog. I hate Gavin. He's literally a dog. A dog holding a gun. That's because this bloody German dude went too far. So Hans, who by this point is now being called Clever Hans, that's the name he comes from,

his maths were estimated to be at the level of a 14-year-old human. Okay, or a 32-year-old woman who never really pursued maths that hard. Did you pass your year eight maths? Yes. Could you do it now, though? Oh, fuck no, absolutely not. No, no, no, I couldn't pass. Yeah, no, I've forgotten everything.

I think I could probably still pass English. No, that's probably not true. Surely. Sometimes I'm like, proper noun. What's a proper noun? No idea. It's a proper noun? No idea. It's a noun but proper. Uh-huh.

Yeah. It's one you say with a posh accent. Oh, look at that plant. It's a proper noun. Plant. Plant. Wouldn't it be plant? Oh, damn it.

Look at that plant. You know, proper. That is a beautiful plant. I love our accent. I think it's very cool. You sound so beautiful. It's such a beautiful language we speak. Listen to it all day.

Plant. Plant. Yeah, yeah. Now, for people who might be doubting Clever Hans, it's not just people on the street believing the feats. It's not just like a show that people are doing. The article states that Hans' feats can be certified by- Not feats,'s not just like a show that people are doing the article states that hans's feats can be certified not feet hooves sorry his hooves can be certified by the prussian minister of education and a famous zoologist and director of the prussian natural history museum a guy called

professor mobius professor mobius himself had this to say about hans at the time he possesses the ability to see sharply, to distinguish mental impressions from each other, to retain them in his memory, and to utter them by his hoof language. Hoof language. This horse can lift its hoof. The only international language, hoof.

So what I'm trying to say there is educated people of their day are seeing it going, holy crap, this is legit. If Morbius is on board, I'm on board with you. Yeah, for sure. Me too. What a job title. He had a really long... It sounded like it was about eight people and it's one guy. Zoologist and director of the Prussian Natural History Museum.

Yeah. What a guy. That's good. This is getting dangerously close to the start of World War I. Now, I'm wondering... How clever is he dave's next sentence is they also discovered that clever hans could accurately pinpoint the location of the enemy clever hans was a member of the black hand

trained to throw a bomb and then shoot franz ferdinand so a lot of people even experts in zoology are watching this thinking it's fully legit but not everyone was convinced i should say particularly after the new york times story brought international attention to clever hans this led to germany's board of education being asked to conduct an independent investigation into hans's abilities being a scientific man with nothing to hide his owner van olsen happily agreed he's like yeah this horse is legit do whatever you need to do you'll find the truth a number of experts joined what was called the hans. Right. So they're spending, like, taxpayer money on this. Perfect.

Led by philosopher and psychologist Karl Stumpf. Stumpf? Stumpfy. When Stumpfy's involved, you know that it's legit. That's legit. Oh, is this a Stumpfy? Stumpf. Stumpf is fantastic.

God, that's fun to say. Stumpf. So led by Karl Stumpf, and his colleagues included two zoologists, a psychologist, a horse trainer, several school teachers and a jockey. Well, a circus manager. Yes. Who knows horses better? Yeah.

I've been enslaving them for years. The commission undertook extensive and independent testing but concluded in 1904 that no trickery was involved in Hans the horse's responses to questions. Wow, okay. So the owner clearly was not manipulating the horse, is what they discovered. Yeah, right. But they found it was doping. The commission thought he was a genuinely talented horse,

genuinely answering the questions. Wow. Although they didn't quite go so far as to publish that. Instead, rendering a non-committal report, leaving the mystery unsolved and suggesting further inquiry. Because they were baffled and didn't want to really go out on a limb and say this is different. It would be embarrassing.

Yeah, because if it was proven wrong later, they'd be like, oh, shit. So they're like, privately they're telling everyone, yeah, wow, I can't see how this is fake. Right. But I'm not writing that down. Yeah. Longer an idiot. Yeah.

That's pretty clever because you would sound so foolish to history if you got it wrong and you believed a hoax like that. Yeah, totally. But it's not a hoax as far as we know so far. As far as we know so far, absolutely not. Stumpf was stumped. Did you write that? I didn't.

I just made that up. Wow. It's pretty good, right? Really good. Like stumped. Yeah. Yeah. Because it makes even more sense to me because it's spelled S-T-U-M-P-F.

Yeah. So it's stumped with an F. Yeah. So stumped. Yeah, it's great. I don't know. It's fantastic. Yeah. Yeah. Because it makes even more sense to me because it's spelled S-T-U-M-P-F. Yeah. So it's stumped with an F. Yeah. So stumped. Yeah, it's great. I don't know. It's fantastic. Dave, a perfect joke.

Thank you so much. You've nailed it. A perfect joke that got zero love. I think I was in shock, to be honest. Were you stumped? I was stumped. Well, I think the problem is those sort of things, if they're too good, they're not funny. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

They're not like, they're too good they they're not funny yeah yeah they're not like they're not i think i think it's too clever yeah to elicit laugh that's what i've been yelling at my audiences for years my comedy is too good for you yeah yeah not too good too clever too clever for laughs people are just quietly impressed yeah stunned silence wow that's good yeah that's it i need to think about that I leave your shows going Fucking hell that was funny I didn't laugh but Bloody hell

I don't leave thinking it was funny I think I leave thinking Wow I learnt something tonight Yeah That was clever Yeah that was

That was real clever stuff Clever Dave That's right I am doing a show At the Adelaide Fringe And Melbourne Comedy Festival Next year Come along

You will be stumped You will not There will not be a single laugh, but you will enjoy. Well, I say enjoy. You'll leave. You'll leave the show. Is there time to change the title of the show to Stumpfed? I'll have a look.

Dave Warnocki and Stumpfed. Clever Dave Warnocki will stump you. That's good stuff. I'm going to tell the time on stage. Whoa. By knocking on the time on stage. Whoa. By knocking on the table. Yeah. That's how many knocks did I do?

Five. Yeah, it's five o'clock, I guess. Wow. Somewhere. Five o'clock somewhere, and then you crack open a TV. Yeah, that's fun. Yeah, that's fun. Can I have that? Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't pull that off. Allitty. Yeah, that's fun. Yeah, that's fun. Can I have that?

Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't pull that off. All right. Look forward to Stumpf. I'm doing jokes where I'm getting laughs like an idiot. Not clever, not clever. People leave feeling cheated after a Perkins show. Yeah, yuck.

They're like, I just had to laugh the whole time. I can't imagine how much they laughed. It's so embarrassing. Two stars. I don't know why I keep it up. I've never laughed more in my life. Two stars. She's clearly a moron.

That's right. You know, but do you want a funny show or do you want a smart show? Yeah, probably funny. Anyway. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So, no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can

deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. We can wait for clean water solutions. Or we can engineer access to clean water. We can acknowledge indigenous cultures. Or we can learn from indigenous voices.

We can demand more from the earth. voices we can demand more from the earth or we can demand more from ourselves at york university we work together to create positive change for a better tomorrow join us at yorku.ca slash write the future so they've stumped they've moved that they've said maybe someone else needs to look into this. A man who was not satisfied with the inquiry was a guy called Oscar Funckst. Funckst? Funckst is fantastic. That is some incredible names today.

With a PF, Professor Funckst. Oh, love that. He was a physiologist and biologist who was fascinated by the case and sought Van Austen's permission to examine Hans. He did things slightly differently, erecting a large tent to house his experiments in order to remove any outside distractions. Okay.

Like a circus tent? Yeah, it was quite big, yeah. With a lot of chairs in and a ticket price. He was dressed like a ringleader. Yeah, he was a lion as well. It was very weird. Anyway, he took it on the road for several years. Yeah, he was a lion as well. It was very weird. Anyway, he took it on the road for several years. Yeah, for science, I guess.

Like the commission, he asked the horse lots of questions and got others to do the same. In fact, he grilled the horse with lots and lots of questions from different question answers and carefully outlined the different variables that were being considered. Again, from a different article in the New York Times. They loved this horse.

Pfungst made two significant discoveries. One was that the horse could not answer any questions correctly unless the answer was known by the question asker. So, you couldn't just ask it, what's 858 times 9 million? Right. Oh, that's interesting. I mean, that would be so many stomps. I don't know why you would ask that, what's 858 times 9 million? Right. Oh, that's interesting. I mean, that would be so many stomps. I don't know why you would ask that.

He's still stomping. But if off the top of your head you don't know it, if you have to go and work it out, he couldn't answer it. It plummeted to almost 0% of the time you could answer the question. So if you ask it 9 plus 9 and you know it's 18, great. But if you say 99 plus 99 minus 200 you've got to like sit down and work it out the horse cannot answer it right so it's only as smart as you then yeah the horse is a mind reader is what we're saying yes what's a weird thing isn't it if the horse either knows

the math or it doesn't like what's going on here yeah well i guess the human either knows the math or it doesn't yeah but why do you need to know it for the horse to know it well i wonder if it's because they're if the person who's interpreting the answer if they know the answer they know how to be tricked you know then they go oh yeah i reckon i was 18 stops yeah that was that was a little half stump that wasn't close enough the second thing that funks discovered was that hans could not answer unless he could see the person putting the question to him. It was the custom for the questioner to stand directly in front of Hans, face to face, and Funks noticed that if a position were not taken at his head

but by his side, for example, he would back away until he could look at the questioner. So the horse would move to look. Okay, that just feels polite. Yeah. Exactly. That's a polite horse. Okay, that just feels polite. Yeah, exactly. That's a polite horse. Are you talking to me? Just confirming this question's for me and not another horse?

Maybe the horse's hearing isn't that great. It's relying on a bit of lip reading. Yes, okay. That sounds like they're being kind of dickish about it. Yeah, come on. So they're like, oh, this is something we didn't expect. Okay, this induced investigators to try the experiment of putting horse blinders on him so he couldn't see.

And at once it was found that hans was thereby made quite incapable of giving replies right so it is a body language thing are they nodding like they say it's uh five plus three and they're going one yes two yes just not even realising they're doing it, but they're counting along positively and then they go, they change something when they... Yeah. Eight, he did it. You've absolutely hit it there. Eventually a suspicion hit Funks that the answer to the mystery

lay in unconscious movements. Slight alterations of pose or facial expression, which the horse perceived and which he interpreted as a signal that I should stop tapping my hoof. Whoa. I mean, it's maybe not clever mathematically, but very clever socially. Oh, yeah. Oh, my goodness, this horse, he can read a face.

Yeah. Funks undertook an elaborate series of experiments with 25 people of different ages, genders, and backgrounds. Kids as young as six played the part of the question giver. And Funks later said, he wrote a scientific paper on this he said quote none of them was aware of the purpose of the experiments only in a few isolated instances did they report that they were conscious of any movements on their part with the exception of two persons they all made the same involuntary movements so they'd ask the question and they'd all sort of look at the horse

in the same way funks noticed that the question and they'd all sort of look at the horse in the same way. Funks noticed that the questioner's breathing posture and facial expressions involuntarily changed each time the hoof tapped, showing ever so slight increases in tension. And Hans was able to pick up on this tension, which all suddenly disappeared from the person's face when the correct answer was arrived at. Hans took the lack of tension as the cue to stop tapping. Wow. That's incredible. Yeah.

That's more impressive than all of this bullshit. It's so impressive. So what was happening, you'd ask a question like, what's five plus three? And Hans would start tapping, examining your face as he went. And then when you got near the correct answer of eight, he'd begin to notice the tiniest change in your face or body expression. And then he'd just stop.

And everyone would go, amazing. You're so smart. Here's a treat. Yeah, yeah. And he'd go, awesome. And he'd worked out that's the way I get praise and treats. That's incredible. So there's no denying that Clever Hans was very clever.

Yeah. He was able to notice the most subtle of changes in a person's face and breathing. In fact, he was able to often get the right answer even after the questioner was aware of what was going on and attempted to conceal any reactions. So you try and keep a completely blank face, he could still pick up on the tiniest, minute change. Wow. Which is why if you didn't know the answer,

you couldn't lead him into the right one. Yeah, right. Because you'd be like, yeah, I guess that's maybe right. It's interesting that it's on facial expressions and stuff because I didn't think that animals could, well, some animals couldn't pick up on that very much. Because I often find myself smiling at my dog like I would a person. You know, like I'll walk past him and I'll sort of give him an encouraging smile and I'm like, he has no fucking idea what I'm doing there.

I reckon they're picking up on that. Do you think so? Because he gives me nothing. Because you're greasing off a dog. They're like, pfft, pfft. Yeah. Piss off. That's true.

Hmm. But this horse is just like, your vibe seems like you want me to stomp. So I'll stomp. I'll stomp. Seems to make you happy that I stomp for a certain amount of time. If you like this, I'll do it. But he learned to play the system and tell people what they wanted to hear to get praise and treats. But he was not able to do maths, equations and the like himself.

He's not actually doing the sums in his horse brain. According to medium.com, Fungst was able to recreate the clever Hans phenomenon in a series of experiments where the professor played the role of Hans. He'd have examiners ask him questions mentally and answer by only responding to facial expressions of the questioner. So, you know, he would examine the question. So they would ask a question mentally? Yeah, like think of a number and he'd go, one, two, three, and like look at the change and go, three.

And he was able to get it right enough of the time to prove that, oh, you was able to get it right enough of the time to prove that oh you are able to perceive stuff yeah okay i'm so much more impressed than i was about a horse telling the time or knowing the day of the week that i was like okay whatever because it feels like that was always some version of a trick anyway yeah but this it's that i figured out what it is but you weren't sure if horses could do that stuff you're like we all know they you're like should i be impressed or is it like yeah we all know a horse tells the time of the way you ever walk into a stable they've got a calendar they got a big clock merry christmas horses love time i was more meaning just the fact

that they were the the independent like the thought at all. Like it sounded like they didn't think animals even had a brain almost. They're like, wow, look at that. Look at it. It knew to not walk into a fence. Yeah. Look at that. It can react to things around it.

That was a loud bang and that horse got a fright. Isn't that interesting? Yeah. Is it? Wow. In fact, this whole story is led to what is called the clever hans effect or phenomenon and this is taken into account when doing face-to-face experiments with animals even today according to wiki the risk of clever hans effect is one reason why comparative

psychologists normally test animals in isolated apparatus without interaction with them however this creates problems of its own because many of the most interesting phenomena in animal cognition are only likely to be demonstrated in a social context. And in order to train and demonstrate them, it's necessary to build up a social relationship between trainer and animal. But again, you got to hit the pub a few times. Yeah, you got to get to know them. Yeah, maybe play some social sports together.

But by that point, they know you. They know your facial expressions. They might be telling you what you want to hear. So you've got to be careful. I don't think I know people well enough to read their facial expressions that accurately. Maybe my brother. I think that's about it. Really?

Okay, what am I thinking right now? Dave, I cannot repeat that. You actually can't. Yeah, none of this time it was real pervy hey dave think of a number all right no i'm just I'm just saying. He's acknowledging. Done. Seven, correct.

There you go. I'm really glad I didn't pick a million. Your eyebrows did go up pretty high. Yeah. Which I picked up on. Wow. You're clever. You guys know each other socially, I guess.

That was a fantastic piece of audio. Feel free to edit it out. No, I enjoyed it. It was fun. Fun for me. According to Damn Interesting, which does have a damn interesting article about this. Oh, I thought you said Dan. Me too.

I thought it was Dan Interesting. Yeah, I'm like, man, this guy, hopefully for his sake, he's got some things to say. Dan Interesting, pretty dumb guy. He's so boring. Trying too hard there, Dan. It's one of those ironic nicknames. Oh, Mr. Interesting over here.

Fuck yourself. So because this is the thing that clever hands affect when you do experiments with animals, you've got to take stuff into account. So to prevent prejudices and foreknowledge from contaminating experimental results, modern science employs the double-blind method where researchers and subjects are unaware of many details

of the experiment until after the results are recorded. For instance, when drug-sniffing dogs undergo training, none of the people present know which containers have drugs in them. Otherwise, their body language might betray the location and render the exercise useless. Oh, that's really clever. So you don't even know you're doing it, but you're thinking it's in the white one, it's in the white one,

and the dog might pick up on that. Yeah. And then go, yes, it's here. Good dog. In reality, when you don't know which one and then go yes it's here and then good dog in reality when you don't know which one it's in it's not going to help sometimes there's food on the floor in front of my dog and he can't find it sometimes the humphrey food's on the floor i'm tapping the food over here putting his face in it's here it's here and he looks around stepping over it like

stepping on it i'm like it's by your foot now like surely is it possible that you two just have particularly dumb dogs i think yeah absolutely yeah 100 but at least we can admit it you know when parents are like no my child's not an idiot we're like nah dog's an idiot but he's cute so are there are there some people who have dogs who are like will be like are you how dare you how dare? I have a very smart dog. Absolutely. Really? People are weird about their dogs. They are.

No, I do know that, actually. You've got to be realistic. I've been to a dog park. I've looked after a few dogs, and you go to a dog park, and they're different. Yeah. The people at dog parks are. Yeah.

Everyone wants to, you know. They want to chat. Everyone, you know, they just think, hey, you've got a dog. You're weird like me. Yeah. I'm like, sorry, I'm just looking after this dog. This is not my dog. I don't want to chat everyone you know they just think hey you've got a dog you're weird like me yeah i'm like sorry this i'm just looking after this dog this is not my dog i don't want to talk to you you've got to get a t-shirt that says this is not not my dog it depends like i should say some of the people were great and nearly everyone who talked to me were pretty good but there were some people i'm like oh i wish you weren't talking to me yep i don't know what you're talking about

and that's when you're grateful that your dog can pick up on your body language. Yeah. And they stop playing with that person's dog and keep walking. You're like, oh, well, off they go. Bye. Gotta go. Gotta go. Dog's the boss.

Hey, better keep moving. Good dog. Good dog. Now, we're not sure what happened to Clever Hans after this discovery and debunking. I think we do, though. I think we know exactly what happened. Chick, chick. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

Well, for a time, his owner, Van Austen, who apparently was never persuaded by Funk's findings, he continued to show Hans around Germany, attracting large and enthusiastic crowds. Yeah. It was still impressive to watch. Yeah, people go see magicians. I know there's a trick.

It doesn't mean it's not impressive to see. But then Van Austen died, and it's not clear what happened to the clever horse. I'm afraid one theory isn't very nice. And this is a sentence from... I don't think my theory is particularly nice either. Jess, sorry. Sorry to disappoint. Sorry, I know you're saying that he started World War I,

but the truth is a lot less fun. What is it? This is a sentence from the National Library of Medicine, an official US government website. The exact sad end of Clever Hans is not known in detail. But how do you know it's sad? At the beginning of World War I in 19... It does feel like they've just taken a stab here.

At the beginning of World War I in 1914, he was drafted as a military horse and was killed in action in 1916 or was consumed by hungry soldiers. So we were pretty on the money. But it just sounds like they just had a stab at, oh, this might have happened. Either killed in war or killed by being eaten. Or died of natural causes.

Natural causes, that's right, because it would have been quite an old horse by that point. How long do horses live for? Anybody know? I think they lived into the 20s or 30s. Yeah, right. Horse average age at death. 25 to 30 years. Well done. What about oldest?

I was lying before. I love horses. What a weird lie then. Did you mean? On an episode where We were going to talk A lot about horses I know everything About horses That would have been

Really handy the last hour Yeah I didn't To be honest Until I was correct Saying 20 to 30 years I didn't even know But now that I know I'm an expert on horses

You're an expert Okay Tell us anything I can answer it for you Alright What about the oldest horse ever How old do you reckon How old do I reckon

Or how old do I know Okay I'll ask Jess first because she probably reckons. Oh, I'll guess. Okay. Yeah, mine will be a reckon. And then you can answer in hoof taps. I'm going to say 60 years. Okay, 60 years?

Yep. 62. Okay. That's what I'm going to guess. And Matt? Well, I'm thinking 60, 70, 80, 60, 70. I mean, I'm doing a bit of head movement here. 62.

You're both correct. Well done. And if this isn't nominative determinism at its finest, the horse's name? Was the horse that died at 62. Old Billy. Old Billy. And it's the oldest horse ever. they named him old billy from birth because that feels on imagine having a little baby horse

little old billy it was even earlier than that strangely they named it when its mom was still pregnant old billy in there that's an old billy if i've ever seen one. This is on the Guinness Book of Records and the oldest recorded thoroughbred racehorse was the 42 year old chestnut gelding Tango Duke. Tango Duke. Great name. That's nice. And owned by Carmen J.

Copper of Barangarook, Victoria. I'm like, when's this going to get relevant to anything? Oh. There you go. There you go. But that's the end of Clever Hans,

but he's not the only animal said to have had abilities beyond what's usually expected. Okay. Well, my dog does know what bedtime means, so. Yeah, impressive. So, yeah, we're not, you know, we've already done Mr. Hans. Yeah, but this is Mr. Hans. It's very different.

It's way classier. Oh, way classier. Okay, what are these animal abilities? Well, it goes all the way back to the late 16th century when in England a horse named Marocco, Marocco with an M-A, who travelled with his owner and entertained people by counting things like coins and seeming to memorise things.

In 1601, perhaps to fight the growing competition of other animal trainers banks and his horse morocco ascended over a thousand steps to the rooftop of the then flat st paul's cathedral and performed the coin act the show was a success and even the clergy came out to watch the performance then to the great astonishment of those watching morocco walked down the flight of stairs and out onto the street. Wow. A thousand stairs. Wow.

That's pretty impressive. Is it? For a horse. For a horse, I think so. Depends on how big the stairs are. Yeah. They break legs pretty easily, don't they? Yeah.

Not Morocco. No. Wow. You'd think they'd be slipping and sliding on, I don't know, I'm picturing a certain kind of steps, I guess. What are you picturing? Picturing, like, some sort of... Like a water slide?

I think a horse would break its leg on that thing. It's crazy. I mean, it's just, like, one big slippery step. I'm picturing spiral staircase. Yeah, spiral. Very narrow. Very narrow. Like, really shiny tiles for some reason.

Yeah. I don't think I'd survive that. That have just been polished. Oh, no. And greased. Yes. So, to repeat, we've just had the polishes and the greases through. Sorry.

We didn't know you were coming. In the 1780s, a concept or a thing called a learned pig took off in London. Yes. The learned pig was a- I've seen Charlotte's Web. Oh. Well. That's a learned pig.

The book, you've seen it. I've seen it. I've seen the book. There's a pig on it. The learned pig was a pig taught to respond to commands in such a way that it appeared to be able to answer questions by picking up cards in its mouth. By choosing cards, it answered arithmetical problems and spelled out words.

But even back then, there were questions over whether the animal actually recognised letters or words or whether it was simply responding to direct prompting from its owner. So they were onto it. Yeah. Even then. But a learned pig. Love that.

Then we've got beautiful Jim Key, who was a famous performing horse around the USA, around the turn of the 20th century. His promoters claimed that the horse could read and write, make change with money, do a... Can hold a pen. How do you get your hoof around a pen? It could do arithmetic for numbers below 30

and, quote, cite Bible passages where a horse is mentioned What? What do you mean? Who cares about all that other irrelevant stuff It just knows the horse stuff Yeah I don't give a shit about the rest Humans irrelevant Thou shall not cover a horse

His trainer Dr. William Key Was a former slave and self-trained veterinarian at the turn of the 20th century. According to a website, globetrotting.com.au My algorithm is really going to throw up a lot of horse-based stuff the next couple of weeks. I've been on a lot of

horse websites. This is a beautiful Jim Key. President William McKinley saw beautiful Jim Key perform at an exposition in Tennessee and declared, This is the most astonishing and entertaining exhibition I've ever witnessed. He also commented on how it was an example of what kindness and patience could accomplish. Oh, that's quite nice.

And in 2014, Variety reported that Morgan Freeman was set to star in a film based on the life of beautiful Jim Key. Playing the horse. Yes. There's nothing that man can't do. But since then, nothing seems to have come from that. Not yet. Not yet. We'll see.

It's probably pandemic, probably set back a few years. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He'll get onto it in his 90s. What was the thing that he performed at, that horse? An exposition in Tennessee. What's an that horse? An exposition in Tennessee. What's an exposition? An expo. Right.

I don't think I've ever heard that in full. Exposition. And what does that mean? That's just like an expo. It's an expo. It's an expo. Isn't that wild? I never thought what is an expo short for,

but exposition, I don't think I recognise the word. I'm not a very smart horse. Here's the dictionary.com definition. A large public exhibition of trade or goods. Right. Yeah, exhibition. I think I thought expo was short for exhibition somehow. I don't know where they got the P from.

Well, now I do. A different word. I'm a learning horse. I don't know where they got the P from. Well, now I do. A different word. I'm a learning horse. Lady Wanda was another horse claimed to have psychic abilities and be able to perform intellectually demanding tasks such as arithmetic and spelling. Again, her owner, Claudia E. Fonda, trained her to operate a piano-sized contraption

with a double row of keys that the horse used to spell out answers. Wow. Claudia also had a piano-playing Pomeranian named Pudgy. Pudgy the piano-playing Pomeranian. They've got small paws. That's hard to say. Yeah. Yeah, a small piano.

Yeah, of course. Of course. But her horse was the real star and breadwinner in the household. An estimated 150,000 people. Thorough breadwinner. Gosh, that's good. Are you a horse expert as well? Pretty good.

Surrounded by horse people. Yeah. 150,000 people eventually sought counsel from Lady Wonder, each paying $1 to ask her three questions. Which is a lot of money over a few short years. According to Mental Floss, her achievements reportedly included telling married women their maiden names, Yeah. I already know that. I know what that is.

I know that. I know my maiden name. I mean, it's a guess. Yeah. Sorry. Yep. If he said correctly guess guess then that's something yeah like a 50 50 that it's guessing yeah it's like dave can answer any question yeah it's like in

this horse apparently some you're okay it can know a coin the date of a coin hidden from view what call elections horse races baseball. Like commentate them. Yeah. It could discover oil. Like, hang on, you just wasted your question on your fucking maiden name. This next person's asked where the oil is. Where's the black gold? Where do I dig?

I've got my shovel. Texas tea. But my favourite of all the questions it could answer, it could, quote, predict oncoming tractors. I don't know what that means. It's sort of like how Spider-Man has spidey senses. This horse is like, there's a tractor. It's coming.

Watch out. It'll be here in half an hour. It'll be very slow moving. Yeah, it's a very slow moving tractor. You have time to pack up your things and move. You will see and hear it. Lady Wanda's fame hit a whole new level when she was credited to have helped to solve

the case of a missing four-year-old boy, Danny Mattson, in Quincy, Massachusetts. When prompted about Mattson's location, Lady spelled, Pittsfield Water Wheel. The police investigation concluded that there was no water wheel in Pittsfield Water Wheel. The police investigation concluded that there was no water wheel in Pittsfield, Massachusetts.

But the police chief, William Ferrazzi, tried to interpret Lady's message and wondered if she might mean Field and Wild Water Pit. Okay. Which was a quarry close to Mattson's house, which had already been searched. But they're like, maybe we should search it again. And when they did, sadly, they found the body of the child at the quarry. Oh, wow.

And people were like, the horse solved it. Or the horse did it. Oh, my God. The horse was confessing. Oh, no. Yeah. Did you think of that? Yeah, guilty conscience.

Oh, no. I mean, you're guaranteeing yourself some publicity there because you commit the murder and then parents come to you for answers. You give them the answers. People go, wow. It's kind of like Angela Lansbury's motif. Yeah. Motif?

Yeah. M-O. M-O. Yeah. Standing for motif. Motif operando. Skeptics said that the police chief's belief that they should search the quarry again was only reinforced by seeing the answer in Lady Wonderspelling.

Because she said, Pittsfield Waterwheel. And he said, maybe that means field and wild water pit. Where's wild come from? Yeah. And like with clever hands, there were a few that didn't quite believe it. Magicians and sceptical investigators investigators Milburn Christopher and John Skarn showed that Lady's prediction abilities resulted from Mrs Fonda employing mentalism tricks and signalling the answers to her horse.

Nudging her horse. Oi. But Lady Wanda isn't the only... Oi. Oi, answer. Oi. Oi, don't be rude. Look the man in the face.

Don't be so rude. Look him in his eyes. I didn't raise a rude horse. I'm so sorry about him. I'm so sorry. He's not usually like this. Teenagers, you know? Oh, my God.

Good and bad days. Get a fucking job. Good and bad days. Get a fucking job. Lady Wonder isn't the only animal used to help with investigations, and sometimes it does not go well. The final animal we'll talk about today. Is it a monkey? No, it's a dog.

In the 1980s, a Pennsylvanian paratrooper named John Preston was a dog handler who claimed that his dog, named Harris II, could perform feats of forensic detection far beyond the abilities of other investigative dogs. So it was like a tracker and a sniffer dog. He was paid big money for his expertise and his dog's alleged ability. Preston claimed that his dog could smell human traces years or months after a suspect walked over the ground on heavily trafficked streets or even track someone after a hurricane. Except this was all a lie and it all became unraveled when Judge Gilbert Goshorn, during a 1984 trial, conducted a test that found that harassed two couldn't do these things. Couldn't find treats on the floor.

Honestly, I think it performed worse than most average sniffer dogs. This is from CNN. Bill Dillon was 22 when he was sentenced to life in prison in 1981 for killing a man in Canova Beach on the eastern coast of the state. During the trial, Dillon was adamant that he had not committed the crime, but

John Preston testified in court that he and his scent-tracking German shepherd connected Dillon to the killer's bloody t-shirt. Preston testified in court that he and his scent-tracking German shepherd connected Dylan to the killer's bloody T-shirt. Preston said that his dog, Harassed 2, even tracked Dylan's scent repeatedly in later tests. Apparently, Harassed 2 could track Dylan eight days after the murder and after a hurricane. Other experts have since said that this is in no way possible. No dog could possibly do that. And that's okay.

Like, we're not saying dogs are bad because of that. No, that's just beyond. But it's just not, yeah. We couldn't do it either. No. I mean, I could. Well, you do have an amazing sense of smell. Famously, your nose works beautifully.

Very well. Better than it should. Yeah. Too good. You recently had an operation to- Make it worse. Yeah, to stop the sense. That's right. You were like an operation to Make it worse Yes To stop the sense

That's right You were like doctor make it stop Yeah I'm smelling all the time Yep I had a nose reduction Sensual reduction The nose looks the same externally

He is definitely less sensual now I will say that And I'm glad I thank you I thank that doctor It was distracting at work wasn't it Oh my god you were sensual So sensual now. I will say that. And I'm glad. I thank you. I thank that doctor. It was distracting at work, wasn't it? So sensual. Yeah, you were distracted. What about me? I was solving murders from across town.

Three words. Put it away. You snozz. You snozz. COVID was great when the mask was on. Thank goodness. Now the masks are off. Oh my God, the COVID was great when the mask was on.

Oh my God. Could get stuff done. Now the masks are off. Yeah. So once it all came out that Preston was making this up, it was posited that Preston was only able to achieve the results he achieved in numerous other cases by having obtained information about the case prior to the scent tracking so that he could lead his dog to the suspect or evidence in question.

So fucked. A bit like Clever Hans, but on a scale where he's aware of it. He's aware of it and is framing a 22-year-old. Ethically, that's fucked. But Bill Dillon went to jail for murder based on Preston and his dog's evidence and nearly, this is so ridiculous, three decades later in 2007, DNA testing proved that Bill's DNA did not match the DNA on the Kilda shirt. Oh, my God.

The dog was wrong. He was in jail for three decades? 26 years before being released based on this DNA evidence. In Dylan's case, Preston, the handler, even told the court that his dog had the ability to track a scent underwater to actually smell below the water CNN consulted tracking dog experts in Florida about this at the time and they told them no way that's not possible how is the judge accepting this well that's the the worst and craziest thing about this so not long after this another man convicted off the back of harassed who's alleged scent tracking abilities was also freed after two decades in prison.

This despite the fact that Preston and the dog had been discredited in 1987. And the state of Florida never reviewed cases on which the dog had been key in their conviction. Nobody ever told Bill Dillon this either, who sat in prison for another 20 years before he even knew a thing about it. What? And then he was able to appeal. So 46 years? No. Oh, sorry.

Yes, okay. I thought after the 26 years. No, no, no. So basically it was thrown out in 1987, but no one told Bill Dillon or his representatives. Nobody looked into it. No one looked into it. And according to CNN,

Preston had convinced juries more than 100 times of his dog's miraculous talents. Surely you'd be suing them. You'd have to. Hard to sue for 26 years back, but it would equal many millions, I imagine. I couldn't find many of the hundreds written about online. There was just the two that were mentioned, and both of them were over two decades of people's lives. So they're wrongly convicted based on the the guy lying about his dog's abilities just basically so he could he got paid a lot more as an expert rather than just a police officer yuck he got paid he got

paid big money because he was seen as the best in the beers people wanted him and his dog because he he told them he could do a better job than everyone else. And then his life seemed to get bigger and bigger. Oh, and he can smell sounds. He can smell the moon. He can tell you where the moon is based on smell. Yeah. He can smell the cheese because it's all cheese up there. It's all cheese on the moon.

Good dog. Good dog. And, you know, Preston the dog handler died in 2007, so never faced any criminal charges for the fraud And you know at least two people If not dozens more Went to jail based on his fake testimony Wow that's so sad

So so sad And I'm afraid that's the sort of Bumming end to the report Beautiful ending love that But let's not forget Clever Hans Who was possibly shot or eaten by So many happy endings To this story But let's not forget Clever Hans, who was possibly shot or eaten by snakes. So many happy endings to this story.

Wow. But thanks to the Patreon supporters. They were the ones who voted for this topic and put three animal topics up this week. And Clever Hans won in a landslide. I think the pitch was something like, Clever Hans, a horse that could apparently do mathematics, but was the horse telling the truth? And then with the truth in capital letters

and three question marks afterwards, I think they could not resist that. Yeah, well, how could they? Too tantalising. Yeah, the horse was just telling people what they want to hear because it was smarter than them. Wow. I'm absolutely tantalised by that.

I can't wait to find out. Was he telling the truth? It's a horse. We'll never know. Well, that brings us to everyone's favourite section of the show, the fact, quote, or question section, but also, more broadly, the section where we get to thank our fantastic Patreon supporters,

for without them, we would not be here doing this show today. We wouldn't. It's true. We'd refuse. The man isn't a liar. So the way this works is the first thing we do is the fact, quote, or question section, which has a jingle, I think, or something like this.

Fact, quote, or question. She always remembers the ding. She always remembers the sing. And to be involved in this, you go to patreon.com. So go on Podside up at the sydney scheinberg level uh if there's a bunch of different levels of course and there's different rewards and whatnot depending on which level you go on but on the sydney scheinberg level you get to give us a fact quote or question brag or suggestion or really whatever you like and you also get to

give yourself a title or a nickname and And I'll read out four each week. I don't read them out until I read them out. Okay. And first up this week, it's Ben Johnson, aka English professional footballer who plays as a right back or left back for the Premier League club, West Ham United. Born January 2000. Oh, Christ, this one is younger than me. Oh, my God, that is so young

It's really not though 22 That's young Of course But I mean Oh sorry, it's not that young But what is young is 32 That's right

32 is the youngest age you can be Yes So does Ben give himself a title that's a different Ben Johnson each time? No, but maybe this is the start of a beautiful new thing. I think he does that every time. Okay. Then why are you asking us if you know the answer? Well, I was hoping you were going to confirm and not dismiss it out of hand.

Dave dismissed it and then you- I don't remember that ever happening. You rebutted his dismissal. I don't remember much. I'm sick of fighting. I'm sick of the fighting. Nah, I reckon I was right. Okay.

He does this every time. Good for you. You're right. Who are the other Ben Johnson's? Wow, that's so important to you, isn't it? That you're right and that everybody else is wrong. Yes. You're disgusting.

Now, what's his little fact, quote, or question? Let's focus on what's important. He said a lesbian era playwright. He said 1988 Olympic gold medalist, American actor. Okay. So it was like he was asking for some proof. Like he didn't even trust me. Even after I said, I'm definitely right.

I've obviously fallen through the multiverse into a new reality. They were possibly while you're away gallivanting. I've actually had a nap. I'm that fucking bored of this conversation. Well, Ben's asking a question this week. And the question is, does a wombat shit cubes if they are a gentleman? Oh, great question.

That is a very good question, Matt. as the expert on gentlemen. I'm a gentleman expert and an expert on gentlemen. And wombats are my favourite animals. Out of all animals? Out of all animals. Yes, out of all animals. Out of all animals. Not just an Australian animal?

What is this cultural cringe you've got here? Why can't an Australian animal be my favorite animal in the world i mean look around there's so many options your favorites a panda hell yeah yeah what's my favorite dog nah see it pays to listen boys it pays to listen dave okay matt what's my favorite well i'm not gonna speak for jess i'm a feminist, but we all know it's a feminist. Give me a clue. Is it also Australian? It's a quokka.

Quokka. Is it really? I love them. They're so smiley. Wait, favourite Australian animal or favourite animal in the world? Both. It can be both. Yeah.

It can be both. Remember we saw them at the Adelaide Zoo, but they were all sleeping, and I couldn't get a photo with them? Oh. It's very upsetting. Didn't stop some people. It didn Zoo, but they were all sleeping and I couldn't get a photo with them? Oh. It's very upsetting. Didn't stop some people. It didn't, but unfortunately I respect the quokkas. That's right. We're grabbing them.

Picking them up. Wake up! Wake up. So I'm going to say a gentleman wombat's a different kind of gentleman, of course. Yeah. The saying a gentleman never shits about human gentlemen. Yeah.

But it is also true, interestingly. A gentleman wombat doesn't shit cubes or anything. Wow. Too polite for that. So the answer to Ben's question is no. Yeah. So why are they so solid? Yeah, they're full of shit.

So, yeah, that was Ben's question. He says, and this is obviously a little bit out of date now, also happy block and happy block to you. I don't know if, Ben, you're getting in late or early. I think it's early. He's getting in early. Happy block to you. Ben, there's still, we've got 10 months to wait,

but I appreciate it all the time. He's already got the block mystery out there. New year, new block coming up. That's true. Also says, oh, at the time time of writing you're halfway through your uk tour and i'll see you in london in a week well that's in our past ben yeah okay move on every sense not even just when this comes out it's even further in the past but even at the recording time and then here's a spoiler and then he says ps oh okay i'm engaged, bitch. I was going to say, we found out some big news, Jess.

Ben and Georgia are engaged. Congratulations. A beautiful ring, too. Saw it briefly at the gig. Still the ring. Okay. Loved it. He kissed the ring.

Dave's a ring expert. I know more. Blue, black, shiny one. Yeah. Non-shiny. Non-shiny. Matte finish, if you will. That's my favorite. Thank-shiny. Non-shiny. Matte finish, if you will. That's my favourite.

Thank you, Ben. The next one comes from Sophie Tutor, who we also caught up with when we were in the UK. We went on a freaking Concord together. We went on a double date. Seeing pictures of you on a Concord, I was so excited for you. It was. I was so happy.

It was really cool. And we had like a tour guide with an extremely amazing mustache. Yes. And kind of like a silver mullet. Yeah. He looked incredible.

What's his name? You knew his name? Roger. Roger. Or something like that. He looked like a Roger too. Yeah. What you're imagining

is exactly right. Wow. He wouldn't pose with us for a photo though. He knew his worth. He said he did that money symbol with his fingers. He said, how many followers you got? Nah.

I don't pose for less than 15K. You go on the Concorde and you walk through the back and then you get to sit down and they play a little presentation of what it would be like if you were taking off, which is really fun and I really enjoyed that bit. And at the end they play like a montage of the last time the plane landed to Don't Stop Me Now, My Queen. And then at the end,

Rod just starts just doing a bit of Queen music trivia. He's going, so that was that charted in what year? What year did that chart? And then he was giving out clues. All right. What was the highest position charted chart, what do you reckon? Oh, my God. And he's got these kids who would have no idea what he's talking about.

They say, 917? There's a nine in it? Yeah. There is a nine in it? No. It was nine. At one stage, the kid goes, no, no, what did it chart? 1,000?

He goes, all right, don't be silly. It's like the kid doesn't know what a chart is. And then he goes, well, it didn't make it to number one, though. What would have made it to number one when it was on? We're getting so far away from Concord. And this is how we finished it. This is the end of it. And he goes, you might know, lady with the blonde hair.

Blonde hair. And he's like. He's just padding for time. He's he's like well the tour's supposed to go half an hour I get fired if I don't but it was so that montage was so funny it was just like jump cuts

a lot of shots of just the Concorde flying don't stop me now man I was laughing so hard I loved it but because it's all about like it was that very kitschy would you call it kitschy dave yes it was very kitschy but then there's a bit in the shot in the it's like i'm traveling at the speed of light i'm going supersonic blah blah but then it's like there's a bit about exploding yeah it's like oh geez a bit

close to the bone there yeah yeah it does seem like something they maybe wouldn't include. But anyway, Sophie has a fact for us. And her title is Soggy Group Mum. Oh, God. I don't think I like that. No. Soggy Group Mum. Don't like that.

Maybe the fact will explain. Sophie writes I'm currently sitting front row in Birmingham Waiting for Matt and Dave to start their first UK show Well that's in the past Sophie I'm the one eating a salad Because I had to leave home at 3.45 And I knew I'd be hungry

Hope you can hear me munching on the recording That is the episode that has had uh technical issues and was the technical issues a crunch it was a crunching sort of sound oh my god sophie what have you done and i think she's saying soggy because they had to line up in the rain that night oh no yeah okay that makes sense uh thank you very much and you guys the the venue obviously said would you like us to let people in early and you said make them wait they did ask that and they were they were sort of like oh they don't need to come in yet we're like if they're in the rain no we won't it's pretty it's pretty important that everyone knows that i stepped in there i said no

no bring them in okay it sounds to me like it was the other way around i think it was said make them wait no i think it was like i said fuck them someone did say they can wait i like oh i've been like that's weird anyway um the next one comes from drew forsberg aka vassal for the kingdom of mix a lot vassal vassal for the kingdom of mix a lot and drew's offering a quote writing it was the best of times it was the worst of Mix-a-Lot. And Drew's offering a quote writing, it was the best of times, it was the worst of times. He drinks a lager drink, he drinks a cider drink. He sings the songs that remind him of the worst times. He sings the songs that remind him of the best times.

And that was apparently by Charles Sumba Wumba Tube Thumping. Wow. Wow. And I think about that a lot. Thank you so much, Drew. That's a beautiful quote. And finally, we've got William Hofstadter, aka Chief Mitochondria.

Do you reckon that's right? AKA, in brackets, more than just a powerhouse. And William is offering a fact. William, I'm so confused early. So let's see if this clues anything up. William writes, many plants are monoaceous, meaning they have both male and female reproductive parts on the same plant. However, some plant species are deaceous, indicating that...

Delecious? That's what I was thinking. Indicating that... Oh, is it die-ecious, I think? Indicating that individual plants will be either male or female. For example, ginkgo trees, holly, and asparagus are all die-ecious. The easiest way to determine if a die-ecious... A die-ecious and die die-icious plant is male or female

is that only female plants ultimately bear fruit. Interesting. Really? I did not know that. I didn't know that. So you can have a male apple tree. No fruit? No fruit.

Huh. How about that? Is that a thing? Hey, I never fact-checked these. No, and we won't. I won't look it up. And people do not take advantage. No one takes the piss.

No. Which is nice. Which is nice, actually, yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much to William, Drew, Sophie, and Ben. Next thing we'd like to do is thank a few of our other great supporters. And Jess, you normally come up with a bit of a game based on the topic at hand. Yeah.

I'm going to... Maybe we could give them an animal they can communicate with. Oh, fantastic. Who's their clever hunts? Yeah. First up, I'd love to thank from address unknown uh if if this is you and you want your address in here you just there's a way to add your address inside patreon if anyone ever comes up with a planet of the moles or whatever we say fortress fortress of the moles it's only

been three weeks uh but yeah so that and that will mean you get christmas cards and those sort of things you don't have to you don't have to no pressure but i think some people don't realize we won't dox you no but some people don't realize that that's uh happened that they haven't given us their address and that's why they don't get the mail anyway from i worry yeah maybe we usually say fortress of the moles have you gone over to the mole people? You started referring to Earth as the planet of the moles? I've said too much. No, no, no, no.

I mean, I'm just thinking there's been so many mole people over the years that a fortress might not hold them. Yeah, sure. They need their own planet. Yeah, that's fair. Hopefully it's not our planet. But from this planet of the moles, it's Kathleen Kaiser. I'm going to kick it with the Kaiser.

And that actually works out quite perfectly because Kathleen's animal companion is a mole. Wow. Wow. A hairless one, like Kim Possible. Really? Yes. You guys didn't watch Kim Possible? Is that a cartoon?

No, was Kim Possible a hairless mole? No, but her friend. Her friend was a real mole, am I right? Her friend Ron had a hairless mole? No, but her friend. Her friend was a real mole, am I right? Her friend Ron had a hairless mole, I'm pretty sure. Yeah, was there ever a monkey on there? That's a show that would have had a monkey on it. Surely at some point. That's the Kim Possible tone.

Anyway. Thank you very much, Kathleen Kieser or kaiser and your hairless mole who is very smart very smart i'd also love to thank from ceratos in california in the united states reina ramirez fantastic name ramirez the camel whisperer? Oh, I like that. Clever camel. That's right. A man's not a camel, but Raina's animal is a camel.

Yes, is a camel. Raina tours around with that camel. Big fan of camels. Are you? Yeah, I like them. They're funny, useful. You rode on one? Yeah.

How was that? Terrifying, but I loved it. Yeah. Did the camel spit? No, but I had the naughty young camel. Oh, yeah. That was... I'd put you on the naughty one.

Yeah, I think the person who was putting us on the camel was mad at you. Favre was like, I reckon this guy can handle it. Wow, they were so wrong. Yeah, and absolutely. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. I'm not going first. I don't want to go first.

You were coming off as being really confident because you were wearing new clothes because your luggage had... So they saw you as a totally different person. I'd had a real rebrand, a forcible rebrand because I had to buy only what a small Italian village had for sale and end up looking like a Poirot on tour. That's great.

What if the camel would probably, it just knows where water is and stuff like that. Oh, the camel I'd read his name, Jimi Hendrix. Wow. Really? That's what the guy said. What a young, naughty name. Finally from me,

I'd love to thank from Brompton in South Australia. It's Ryan Standing. Brompton. Brompton. Ryan Standing. Ryan Standing, who's- I'm only Ryan Outstanding anyway. Just say that for a bit later.

Giraffe. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's funny because in my head I was thinking ostrich, also long-necked. Yeah, and the trick that this giraffe can do that Ryan taught the giraffe is you know how when you've got like a lolly snake or something and you put in your mouth you try and tie it in a knot yeah this giraffe can do that with its neck whoa it can put it in its mouth and make it turn into a snake that's incredible i i feel like you're purposefully

misunderstanding me that's what I got too That's not what you got Yeah It's like when you have a lolly snake in your mouth And you can turn it into a Yeah that's what it can do That's what it can do That's amazing that it can put it's neck in it's own mouth

I think that's fantastic It is amazing isn't it Yeah it's very impressive That's very smart That is a smart animal Yeah Jess You feel like you're heating up.

Do you want to thank a few of our great supporters? I would love to thank, from Croydon in Victoria, Matt Sparkman. Matt Sparkman, I love that. Incredible. What's the Sparkman? When I was a teenager, I went to an underage, like a freezer event at a Croydon community hall or something. Yeah.

Frankenbock played. Oh, I remember seeing Frankenbock at a freezer event. Yeah, the bop fucking rock. Oh, amazing. It's a great night. Dave asked, what's the sparkiest animal? Oh, sparkiest animal. It's got to be Electric Eel.

Yeah, Electric Eel. Yes. It's got to be. This is the eel. He speaks to eels. He's the eel man. Yeah. This eel will now stomp out a number.

It looks like it's Flapping around Desperate to get back In the water But no This is It is communicating It is counting It is a strategic

Number of flops Oh it stopped That's not Just because it stopped breathing Absolutely not And it can also Like Matt can also

Swallow the eel And the eel Can just Know everything That Matt knows. Whoa. They can transfer knowledge. That's fucking full on, bro.

Great work, Matt. No, that's too far, man. That's crazy. What is he, a Spider-Man villain? That's how Jamie Foxx's character gets his electro power. He falls into a vat of electric eels. And swallows one of them. Swallows one of them, but it knows everything he knows.

It knows too much. It knows far too much. It knows his pin number. Oh, no. Actually, it would just be pin. It's not number, number. Yeah, but this animal is so smart it knows his pin number, which we don't even know what that is.

It's crazy. So thank you to Matt Sparkman. I would also have to thank from Elkhart in Indiana. I-N? Yeah. I would love to thank Fat Jimmy Joe. Fat with a P-H. Fat with a P-H, Jimmy Joe.

Incredible name there. Fat Jimmy Joe. The animal that first comes to mind to me here is a Highland Coo. One of my other favourite animals. Favourite international category? We're talking favourite Scottish? For like two weeks of that tour, I thought you were just saying cow funny. Which I think is kind of probably where it comes from, right?

Yeah, but that's what they're called. They are so fucking cute. They're so fucking cute. Oh, my God. They're fluffy. They've got horns. They're furry. They cute. They're so fucking cute. Oh, my God. They're fluffy. They've got horns. They're furry. They're fluffy.

They're horny. Oh, my God. Love them. So cute. Love that. And finally, for me, I'd love to thank from Endeavour Hills in Victoria, David Glue. David Glue.

That's fun to say. David Glue. Okay, what's the stickiest animal? Is that a jellyfish? Are they sticky? No, they look like they should be, but they're probably not. Probably like a slug? Oh, yeah.

I hate them. That's so gross. It's probably stickier animals. That feels pretty sticky. Yeah, what's something that can, I guess like spiders and stuff, pretty sticky? Anything that can walk up walls must be pretty sticky. I'm googling stickiest animal. Wow.

It's going to be stick animal! Stick insect! Geckos, in fact, have the stickiest feet of all living animals. Gecko, happy with that? Yeah, make it a gecko. That's great. Mind if I thank a few people? I would die for you to thank people.

Just die, darling. I would like to thank from Denver, Colorado, Alicia or Alicia Beaton. Oh, Alicia Beaton. I think Colorado. I don't know if this is right, but I think moose. Okay. Do you know how fucking big moose are?

They're so big. I love big animals. They're massive. Crazy. What a crazy animal. What can it do, though? What's its smartness? It can fly to the moon.

Whoa. Moon moose. The moon moose. On command. Yeah. Just like, hey, moose, go to the moon. And it's like, moose. And off it goes.

Moose. I'm a moose. Love it. Yeah. I'd pay And off it goes. Moose. I'm a moose. Love it. Yeah. I'd pay to see that show. Me too. Colorado's moose population approaches 3,000 animals statewide. They got moose.

They got 3,000. Is that a lot? I don't know. I don't know. But it sounds like it's growing. Yeah. Wow. Cool.

Jeez, they're so big. So fucking big. Fantastic animals. I saw a TikTok the other day. I'm pretty sure I saved it. I'll show you on our lunch break. Do you know what noise a moose makes? It's weird.

Is it moose, what you said? Moose. No, that's this particular moose. What's it make? It's quite a creepy sound. Or it could have been, that might be bullshit. I'll do some fact checking. Anyway, thanks to more people.

I'd like to thank from Birmingham, a place that we have been not so long ago, Sophie Rodriguez. Sophie Rodriguez. Great name. Dolphin. Works with a very intelligent dolphin. Makes the other dolphins, notably an intelligent animal, look like fucking idiots.

Must be real smart. Yeah, it's really smart. Jeez, it's a smart dolphin. It's quite unpopular amongst its dolphin friends because it's too smart. But, I mean, you know, like that's just where greatness comes from. It's a real tall poppy syndrome. Yeah, dolphins are a tall poppy. They cut them down.

Yeah, this dolphin could actually fly to the moon. Bloody hell. And Sophie, how does Sophie utilize that? Well, it's charged as a mission for people to see a dolphin fly. I was going to say, how's it going to breathe up there? But how would the moose breathe up there? Yeah. Come on, Dave.

Great question. Did the moose go to the moon or just know about the moon? It flew to the moon. Flew to the moon. Actually, it would be almost better in some way if one of the animals was like an expert on moon trivia. Like you'd ask a question about anything about the moon and the moose would know like how big it is. Where it is. Where it is.

Where's the moon? How much cheese it's made out of. Tap twice for up. Wow, that is a clever move. Does the moon exist? Yes or no? One for yes, two for no. It knows.

Wow. It doesn't stop tapping. Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. It really believes. Yes, yes, it's really underlining the yes. It really believes. What conviction from this moon. Yes, yes really, underline it, yes. It really believes. What conviction from this moon.

Yes, yes, the moon can do it. I believe in the moon. That's so dumb. What's wrong with us? Hey, Fawn, I'd like to thank from Jefferson, Massachusetts, if I'm saying that correctly. Well, you're not, but it's close. It's Massachusetts.

Thank you. Elizabeth McNulty is from Jefferson Massachusetts. Nick Nulty. The animal Nick Nulty. Nick Nulty. What animal does Nick Nulty make you think of? A stonefish. Really?

Okay. Stonefish, like Jared Rebecki's brother on Neighbours was nicknamed Stonefish. Ooh. Really? Okay. Stonefish, like Jared Rebecki's brother on Neighbours was nicknamed Stonefish. Really? Yeah. There was Toadfish and Stonefish. Toadfish and Tadpole. Who's Tadpole? The younger brother, I guess, or the nephew or something.

Just give them names. Where do they get their ideas? So Nick Nolte reminds you of a stonefish. Absolutely love that. And the stonefish speaks to Elizabeth McNolte. Yep. And flies to the moon. Wow.

They're getting a real crew up there. Good fun. Am I thinking of the right person? Let me look up Nick Nolte. Oh, stonefishes are great. Yeah, I think I've nailed it. Yep. I'm really happy with that.

I never knew what a stonefish was. They're awesome. Oh, my goodness. I just looked it up too. Sorry. Did I not nail that? You have never been more what a stonefish was. They're awesome. Oh, my goodness. I just looked it up too. Sorry. Did I not know that? You have never been more right about anything in your life. Thank you.

Wow. Because I just, you know what? I answered with my gut and with my heart. Yeah. And I usually don't do that. I don't back myself. And this time I was like 100% stonefish. So, thank you.

I appreciate that. You're incredible. Thank you. Wow. Some of them are pretty full on looking. Yeah. So is Nick nolte so good on him good on him uh thank you so much to elizabeth sophie alicia david fat matt ryan

rainer and kathleen and finally uh the last thing we like to do is welcome a few people into the trip ditch club this week there's three inductees. I'm standing on the door. The way this works is, I should say, if you sign up on the shout-out level or above for three straight years, you get lifetime access to the Triptych Club. Now, the way this works is I'm standing on the door. A bit of theory of the mind here. I've got a clipboard. I've got a list.

It's got three names on it. And I'm about to lift the velvet rope. Once you hear your name read out, please come on in. You'll find Dave up on stage with Jess. Absolutely. Dave's emceeing the event. Everyone who's already in the club is standing around on the floor cheering for you. And Dave will say your name.

He'll hype you up. He's your hype man. Thank you. The crowd will roar. And that'll happen three times. Then there was an after party. Jess will be behind the bar. What are you serving tonight?

Normally it's a- Horse piss. Horse piss. Now, is that a literal horse piss or is that the name of a cocktail? Well, it's actually, it's a bit of a Russian roulette situation. I have got 10 glasses in front of me. Some contain horse piss. Okay.

Some. Some. Some. horse piss. Okay, some. Some. Some. I love that. I can't even do the maths on it. Some, okay. It's because I've forgotten. Yeah.

And others contain a delightful limoncello-based cocktail. That's worth the risk. It's so funny. Early on, you definitely try to make nice cocktails And at some point along the way I said this one's a lovely limoncello based cocktail That's a very nice liqueur You've got some chance of having a nice drink

Some chance Sorry Yeah You're right And have you ever tried horse I didn't mean to discount that Have you tried horse piss Don't discount that either

Okay No that's true I have not No I don't even want to tell you about my hors d'oeuvres Let's just thank some people Dave Don't discount that either. Okay. No, that's true. I have not tried it. No, I don't even want to tell you about my hors d'oeuvres. Let's just thank some people. Dave, you normally have a band book for the after party? I'm very, very happy, actually.

I've booked one of my all-time favorite bands, Horse the Band. Wow. Horse the Band. Horse the Band. Doing exclusively Daryl Braithwaite's Horses. Wow. And their fantastic hit, Sex Raptor. Sex Raptor. A great track if you haven't heard it. One of my all-time favorites. Wow. And their fantastic hit, Sex Raptor. Sex Raptor. Great track if you haven't heard it.

One of my all-time favorites. Wow. All right. So if you're ready, let's induct these people into the Triptych Club. Firstly, from Falkland in Great Britain, it's Rebecca Stephen. Dave's about to high-five. Let's get even with Rebeccabecca steven that's menacing uh next up from san diego in california in the united states it's leah frill do you frill do you frill do you frill that's a very open-ended

question and from la puente in california in the united states it's abraham abraham give me your hand abraham welcome in make yourselves feel at home abraham leah and rebecca sorry whatever dave just did to you all there but have a cup of horse piss. Horse the band, ladies and gentlemen. This used to be a thing that people wanted to come to. They love the horse piss. You're the only one who has an issue with the horse piss. Exactly, and horse the band are genuinely a great live band.

Okay. You know what, Matt? Maybe you can wait outside while we all have fun. Well, I am on the door out here. Then stay out here. I think that's what it is. He's jealous. It's cold. I'll bring you a horse piss. Well, I am on the door out here. Then stay out here. I think that's what it is. He's jealous. It's cold.

I'll bring you a horse piss. Well, can I have a limoncello? Well, I don't know. Can you? That's what I want to know. It's exciting. Can you rig it for me? Nope.

Well, that brings us to the end of the episode. Anything else we need to tell people, Bob? That they can suggest a topic. There is a link in our show notes. It's also on our website, dogoonpod.com, where you can find links to live shows, see what we look like and buy merch over there as well, and that we love you and never change,

just like we will never change. Now boot this baby home, Dave. Hey, we'll be back for the rest of 2023 with more beautiful episodes. But until next week, I'll say thank you so much for listening and goodbye. Later. Drink your piss. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats.

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