Doomed to Fail - Ep 108 - Fun in the Sun: The Sordid History of Gitmo

Episode Date: May 20, 2024

Let's talk about the US's prison camp in Cuba's Guantanamo Bay - the history of why we have the space from Cuba, who's been there, and who has promised to close it down, to no avail.  Join our Founders Club on Patreon to get ad-free episodes for life! patreon.com/DoomedtoFailPodWe would love to hear from you! Please follow along! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doomedtofailpod/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/doomedtofailpod  Youtube:  https://www.youtube.com/@doomedtofailpod TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@doomed.to.fail.pod Email: [e-mail] 

It's a matter of the people of the state of California versus Orenthal James Simpson, case number B.A.019. And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country is doing to you. We are doomed to fail. Yes, I'm going to announce who we are at the top of the show. Oh, my heart. Go ahead. We are doomed to fail.

I'm Fars joined here by Taylor. We are a twice weekly podcast covering some topics. Most of all, ones that seem to be doomed to fail. And we are just getting going with today's episode, which should be released on Monday. How are you doing, Taylor? I'm good. How are you? I'm good.

I'm pretty tired. I've had a very eventful weekend. I went to Fredericksburg, which is wine country, like an hour and a half outside of Austin, which was amazing. But, you know, it's like three hours of driving, and then you hang out, and then you go back home. And so, and I was just doing housework all day today. So this is a nice little reprieve from doing all that. but yeah yeah I'm happy to be inside we had I think our last weekend of baseball games potentially and so we played two games yesterday and then today we had a hit-a-thon

where like the kids look at a hit and the person who hits the furthest gets a prize and we didn't win any of those but we did win a raffle prize which is fun we won like some artwork from one of the coaches who does these like cool stickers like I got this cute sticker to this guy from ah real monsters oh yeah yeah yeah so it's fun very cool yeah yeah um be happy to be inside i'm sure i'm sure yeah the same here it's in the 90s here in texas now and um man summer's summer started too soon you know it's here i'm like oh my just gardening and i'm like no this no the sound's out yeah yeah yeah so all we have to look forward to is a cicada broods and a bunch of heat are you going to get cicadas yeah yeah so i think

ours is the 13 year rude. Just the one. Yeah, just the one. Just the 13 year one. And that should be happening between now and July. So we'll see. But I mean, yeah, there was always a thing

here. I mean, not always. Obviously, don't come out every year. Like, it's been a thing. I've ever recall this happening before. I remember when I was little, when I lived in Illinois, I remember hearing it. And then my father-in-law has sent us some videos from North Carolina where you can just like hear them because they got both oh is it's already happened i guess yeah it would have already

started happening there okay yeah it happened up there he sent us a picture of they're gross they're so big and like big you know they're just like heavy they're a heavy bug yeah they're big and they're kind of they're scary looking until you realize they're just really big dumb idiots they're just stupid animal they're really dumb apparently they're goofy and they die so easily apparently i was listening this one podcast that said that the reason biologically why make sense with them to emerge in trillions is because the first wave just has to get eaten by everything. Like the, you know, they're just there. Right. They're not going to make it. Yeah, they're like cannon fodder. They're just there to get eaten by all the bugs. The infantry. Yeah,

exactly. Exactly. So funny. Um, that I saw a loser the other day and I kind of scared it. It was outside. And I was like, oh, hey. And then it like jumped and it ran into the garbage can and it hit its head on the garbage can and it made a little poop. It was just like really cute. It was just like, And then it, like, kind of shook its head and, like, ran other way. Yeah, I'm a huge, uh, we're a huge lizard family here. Um, so I think I go first today. You do. All you.

This was going to be a little bit weird. Great. Because it's a little open ended. And it's like, there's a host of things that I'm thinking about lately that I have not really absorbed and digested and totally understood in the context of like everything else is going on in the world. What's going on? you're having a midlife crisis no no this all kind of it's interesting because what's going on

with like israel and palestine it's brought up other things here i'll just segue you just go so obviously you've listened to serial before right so serial uh they're on season three have you listened to season three no okay season three is all about like these individual stories of who have been detained by the U.S. government and the war on terror. And I think it's like 11 parts now. It's really interesting. And I have very, very mixed feelings about it because they make, they try to personalize these stories in a way that I think just washes away like what they're culpable of.

So like either here nor there. But addition to that, I was just listening to Ezra Klein's podcast and he had on a professor, a Yale Law School professor on international law. Her name was Eslu Bu Bahi or Baal which I probably butchered but and she was talking a lot about like

what's going on with Israel and Palestine and the United Nations and all that stuff and it just and she referenced how everybody we now people are looking at the situation saying the U.S. or Israel's overreacting

to Israel or to Palestine and So yeah, we also did the exact same thing And nobody said anything to us We way overreacted in the war on terror We did a bunch of stuff that Would have been against international law And it's funny how when we do it

Nobody seems to I mean there were plenty people protesting When we did it Towards yeah towards like after the meat of it came out And so that's actually what I'm kind of going into here I was going to start by doing basically a story on Gitmo but then there's other stuff that was going on that I started digging into into the precursors of what happens someone before they get to get moan so that's kind of like this weird overarching story of what I wanted to kind of cover because also Taylor like we forget this we're kind of old like these are all 23 year old events like I've been thinking that too yeah with some of my stuff what I'll talk about and I told you I was going to talk about the internet a little bit and we talked about that last week this week but yeah no we're old and And that's when I was listening, this Ezra Klein episode.

Yeah. And she was like, do we all forget how over the top we were back then when this happened? And I was like, yeah, kind of. Kind of. It's kind of just like washed away of like, well, that was a crazy time, wasn't it? We just moved on. And so, so I'm going to go into that basically. It's like a little bit of the story about Watanamo Bay, but also like some other topics that are around there.

So I'll just dive right into kind of the history of Watanamo Bay and like why we, even have a piece of Cuba, which is a little bit weird. So Guantanamo Bay, it is a bay on the southeastern tip of Cuba with an inlet that starts at the Caribbean Sea and winds north approximately 12 miles into Cuba. Today, we recognize Cuba as an authoritarian state ruled by the Communist Party, which came out in the 1950s during the Cuban Revolution. But the precursor of all that was the Spanish-American War. So that start

And I'm sure I think you touched on this before I feel like I always think about the Sinking of the Maine Yeah yeah yeah yeah that was one of the Precursors to all this So the Spanish American War started in 1898 and that was between the United States And Spain for a variety of reasons

Which you actually just called out one of them The singing the USS Maine was one of them The other one was they were I was it McKinley Yeah the media was calling McKinley you know weak and basically there was a bunch of like just shoring up support for a war against Spain this time the biggest reason was obviously the economic and military interests the united states had in cuba apparently um sugar imports from cuba were a huge huge deal and the

instability that spain was causing because spain was a brutal they were they were brutalizing the human people and that was causing a lot of issues so the u.s. started to take an interest in Cuba and by extension of that, Spain and declared war, this war only lasted three and a half months. It was an incredibly, incredibly quick defeat between the U.S. and Spain. So for about four years after that war, which lasted again three and a half months, the U.S. maintained operational and government control over the island, and it established a government and prepared Cuba for independence. The U.S. wanted to prevent having to intervene military.

in into Cuban affairs again. And so what they decided to do was that they were going to establish naval command over part of the island. And they were going to do that by signing this lease with the then established government of Cuba in 1902 for a perpetual lease for Guantanamo Bay for a price of $2,000 per year, which was later changed to $3,700 and then later on to $4,000 a year. So that was the genesis of why we had, Bay. Is that what we're still paying for it?

We are now paying $4,085 per year. Wow. Yeah, it's a bargain. That's a lot less than I pay for my home. It is. It is also, it's weird to think about because you hear Guantanamo Bay and you just envision the worst, the worst things ever. You look up pictures. It is gorgeous there. I'm sure it is. I'm sure. I mean, I haven't been to Cuba, but obviously, but I've been to Puerto Rico and the Bahamas and other Caribbean places and it's beautiful down there.

Totally, totally. Yeah. So the purpose of the least, again, it was so that the U.S. had some sort of command over the island. And what they essentially established was a naval facility on the island, on this southeastern tip. The property itself contains the naval station. It's called Naval Station Guantanamo Bay, NSGB. And that's just naval logistics for the fleet operating in the Caribbean. There's leeward point field, which is an airfield.

There's hospital point, which is self-explanatory. There's training areas. there's family support center to provide support and services to the military personnel live there, residential areas, restaurants, homes, shopping center, schools, things like that. And then there is the detention camps. The original detention camps at Gitmo wore Camp Delta, Camp Echo, Camp Iguana, and Camp X-Ray. So why did we start doing this in the first place? Like, again, I'm kind of taking it as just understood that we house people.

But if you're not in your near 40s, that might not be a foregone conclusion. So bear with me on this. The origin of how folks ended up, why the U.S. decided to house people on Guantanamo Bay really starts by examining the concept known as black sites. So are you familiar with this term? I can guess what that means. It's bad. That is sick bad and very secretive.

Yeah, you don't need to know anything. Like, the term is very self-explanatory. So in the immediate aftermath of September 11th, basically the government said we're not sparing any expense, any sort of moral justifications in terms of figuring out what happened, who's responsible and how we can bring them to justice. And realistically, to prevent this from happening ever again. so they went about establishing the CIA went about establishing secret prisons which are known as black sites in a bunch of different countries not in the U.S. for obvious reasons and the entire point was for them to outside outside of transparent channels like the judiciary collect intelligence from high value targets essentially so we actually don't know exactly where the facilities are or really how many of them there are all we know is again they're all outside of the u.s and they're all outside the ability for the u.s. for any entity to provide public scrutiny on it so the method the CIA used to basically find the people that they would

stuff into these black sites was a concept known as extraordinary extraordinary rendition so basically the u.s. understandly doesn't want to tip off these other countries they don't want to let them know they're operating there they don't want to let them know what they're intending on doing and so if somebody the CIA suspected that an individual in a foreign country was you know a high value target

and this war against terror then they would basically monitor and track them until the time was right and they just abduct them so they would blindfold shackle and put diapers on them and typically put them on a military flight

and they'd typically be shackle to the cargo area. That's why they were wearing diapers because it would just go wherever you're going to go or maybe flown to a black site. There's so many details here that I didn't actually write out, but there was a period of time where I don't

know who the governing body was for this, but in the immediate aftermath of 9-11, essentially every country more or less agreed that the U.S. was allowed to operate and fly aircraft without any call signs over their territory like it was basically hey like in the do your

thing we're not going to ask any questions yeah yeah i mean i feel like everything you're saying is like i feel like we are conditioned to be like well of course we have to have spies you know because it's like all kind of like what i was talking about last week it's like all mutually assured spying on each other you know yeah yeah and so like we're like i'm like a part of me is like yeah totally of course we have black size and then part of me it's like why would we ever have to do that but also like you know yeah so the world we live in i i do i do i do want to have like in a side conversation about like yeah about that piece we'll get to that here in a minute so um at this point this individual hypothetically if you picture yourself your shackles of this aircraft carrier

or aircraft and you are at this point referred to colloquially as a ghost detainee basically someone that doesn't exist anymore nobody knows where you are your government doesn't know where you are your film doesn't know where you are, you're just kind of with, wait. Again, there's no flight records or no prison records. You're just gone. Right. That's how they'd essentially land at black sites where they'd be subject to what is, I mean, essentially torture, but the government calls it enhanced interrogation.

The CIA approved methods being waterboarding, hypothermia, stress positioning, which would be things like you'd have your hands shackled to something above your head, holding you off that way, but then you'd also be shackled to the floor, so you'd have to stand for long periods of time. It's like really uncomfortable. Very uncomfortable, slapping around that face of body. There's other branches of government that have other approved methods such as loud music or sleep deprivation or using dogs or other things and still fear and intimidation.

But again, like we don't really actually know what happens to these black sides. That's what's being talked about and approved. I think you can basically do whatever you want at a black side. It feels like, yeah, you're kind of just like there. And we do know that. prisoners have died at other facilities, such as we know for a fact at Gitmo or an abigrab in the past. So it's totally plausible that worse things happen at black sites. Yeah. But over time, as the heat on the war on terror kind of started to simmer down and investigative journalists started

digging into these disappearances, the U.S. government realized it might be in everyone's best interest if they stopped kidnapping these people and putting them on foreign soil. And to make the process even a little bit more transparent not a lot but just a little bit more the problem was they didn't want them to have any legal rights and that would that would slow everything down and you don't want it to slow down because these people could have information they could result they could prevent a future attack so right so like again to your point like purely from like a human utopic perspective bad thing yes but also what else you have we have exactly I I don't know. It's such a good question.

So, so basically the government looked around and they decided that Guantanamo Bay was the perfect place. Basically, in theory, it is on sovereign land that the U.S. doesn't own because it's a lease, after all. It is therefore not subject to judicial oversight. And so they're like, we'll go ahead and we'll go ahead and put these people there. basically they wanted Colin Powell and Connolly's the rights basically wanted everybody to stop yelling at them and they're like we'll just do this that's the easy way to get around this. The way I kind of understood it was that the detainee could graduate so to speak from a black site to Gitmo. So that doesn't mean that they that everything just ended up at Gitmo. So like black sites still were operational or so large number of detainees that were there. It was just that some of some people were also stationed here. So in January 11th of 2000, two is when Camp X-ray, the first kind of temporary camp opened. And at that time, it accepted 25 detainees. At that point, the U.S. allowed some organizations to visit.

So, for example, they had the International Red Cross visit. They also had the FBI show up and do forensics to determine whether torture had occurred there or not. But otherwise, their identities and everything else was kept secret. If you look at pictures from this time, you'll notice that there's really nothing identifiable about the people who were detained there. They're all wearing masks. You can't see their face. You actually have no idea who they are.

Camp Delta contains the actual entire detention facility. That's what opened up after Camp X-ray kind of stopping its temporary little thing and Camp Delta was like the legitimate one. And basically it's run and operates

to the standards of a maximum security prison and contains other camps within it. So the detainees would move around between these facilities based on things like how valuable the information they could provide was or how cooperative they are, therefore how much privilege they would basically get, how high risk they are to do things like solve harm, whether they are suffering from any psychological issues, and also whether they're minors or not.

Because believe it or not, there's one camp called Camp Aguana, which actually sounds kind of charming after you just described your lizard experience. It was actually a detainee camp for minors. It was for kids. and so that's the that's the that's like to keep them I hate that

and that's only I almost hate that because those poor kids I mean they've probably potentially been what is your life like if you end up there

it's been terrible yeah like your life's run yeah absolutely there was also Camp Echo which seemed it was mostly afforded to prisoners or detainees

who got more privileged access things like exercise facilities and stuff like that then there was Camp know, which, again, doesn't sound good. It was apparently another black site

that, again, nobody knows this stuff. We're just kind of intuiting it. So apparently, it was sort of at Gitmo, but they had a carve out around the boundary liven of Gitmo so that it was technically in Cuba, but no Cubans would walk over there, so it was part of Gitmo effectively.

It was assumed that it was run by the CIA. We don't know exactly all the details. The camp was described as having no guard tower, but surrounded by what was called, or what's known as concertina wire, which is basically that gnarly curled up

barbed wire, you know? Personnel working at Gitmo would say that they have observed detainees transferred over to this facility, and that non-uniform personnel seem to be working there, which heavily implies it's a CIA-run operation. There are two other such facilities that exist, but kind of don't

exist within the boundaries of Camp Delta at Guantanamo Bay. One is called Strawberry Fields, which at this point, I think they're just trying to be cheeky with their terminology. This is the same concept as Guantanamo Bay, except these people probably would never have been released, but for this one ruling called Rasul v. Bush, which basically granted get moated detainees access to habeas corpus by the Supreme Court.

The original intent, it sounds like, of strawberry fields was that's a place you go to just be held forever. that's it like you're basically just buried alive um penny lane this was like i hate to weird to use this term this was in theory like the most luxurious version of the camps this was where basically double agents would be trained up so if they caught somebody like an al-Qaeda member they would train them up to basically be a double agent it's sent them back into the field i have no idea how this works i imagine all these people were like i'm just going to get shot in the head one way or not these guys who shoot me in the head or the next guy shoots me in the head i've no idea Real. I mean, like, sorry to the people who are like double or triple agents. I'm like, I don't know, man. Like, you are walking a fine line of being murdered.

Tell me once you're, once you're in this boat, you're just going to ground. Like, there's no getting out of this situation. Yeah. So going back to the Supreme Court aspect of all this, part of the reason, I'm assuming everybody understands this, part of the reason why we did this was based on a concept within the Geneva Convention, which, the U.S. helped the right, which mandates humane treatment, the right to legal counsel, and the right not to be tortured for prisoners of war once they're captured. The U.S. argue that technically they can do all this stuff because the people captured are unlawful enemy combatants, which is a term of art, saying that, hey, these people aren't fighting on behalf of a government when they were captured, therefore subject to the Geneva convention. These people were operating outside of that. And so why Gitmo originally, at least, could operate largely in secrecy and with very limited access for its detainees to legal rights.

In the years since it started functioning of the detainee center until now, users basically been declining year over year. So at its height, it held 680 detainees. Now it's somewhere around 40. Whoa. Yeah. So Obama tried to outright shut it down and he was blocked by Congress. I remember that was part of his promises, campaign promises, right?

Yeah, yeah. And then Trump, by executive order, basically removed all restrictions and access to be able to use the camp. But that didn't matter. Like, I think he was mostly just doing it as like, I'm tough on crime kind of a guy versus like the actual intelligence and military needs weren't really there. And so it didn't result in a dramatic increase in usage. and Biden also said he's going to try and shut down Guantanel Bay which is weird

because I'm like who's talking about this still because it's still a campaign issue but he basically kept mostly nothing has really changed as Trump so like but it doesn't matter

because it was naturally decreasing in usage anyway so it was having like a natural death and so there was no need to really go overboard about it as of right now there's one person who has been there since

almost day one and that's Kalich Muhammad KSM, which was essentially considered the mastermind of the 9-11 attack. He also was the mastermind between the 19903 World Trade Center bombing as well. So he really had a thing against the World Trade Center.

Again, part of the point of the serial episodes I listened to was very these people are basically here indefinitely and, you know, maybe what we're doing to them isn't right.

It was very like pro the detainment. knees in the way that it was a little bit look like I get it like you you know a very progressive viewpoint is is let's be let's let this slide but at the same time like what he what are you supposed to do the guy like this he's been in detention for 20 years without really any formal charges I mean he's had some charges here and there but right as of right now he's awaiting a death penalty case for the 9-11 attack and he's been awaiting it pretty much since 2003 he was was recently postponed on a hearing in 2003. So 20 years on, he still

waiting to have his hearing. And so that's kind of where I left it with what's going on with the entire insanity around the war on terror between the extraordinary rendition, a black side to ghost detainees, to Gitmo transfers, to all. It's just a crazy hodgepodge mess of like, but again, to the earlier point,

what else are you supposed to do? Like, yeah. you kind of have to tell us also let me down this other track where I was reading about the 9-11 actual hijackers and one of them no it wasn't one of them it was like five or six of them that Mossad had actually told the U.S. government about the spy agencies conferred with each other on this and they knew that they were here doing shady shit and still nothing happened which is awful it's awful and I actually am going to talk about that a little bit on my section as well is like we don't need all of this like advanced interrogation as much as we need like a CRM the government is just like talk to each other you know like if one side of the government

knows something about these people and another side like it's trying to find this like talk to each other like they don't talk to each other and I've read like several books I just like point that out again and again and you're like oh my god like I thought you feel like we should be past this because we hear stories of like true crime and like a long time ago when like you know they're looking for this person in this county but not in this county and they never found them you know but like now we should be able to share information and like they don't yeah it was just um I was re listening actually to the last podcast Oklahoma city bombing episode and that was basically the point was that every agency knew a piece of the puzzle but they didn't want to share with each other because they all wanted to like back the group and back the people, the baddies. And it was just a missed opportunity based on lack of cooperation and not looking out for the bigger picture, I guess.

Yeah. Yeah. It's really, it's, I think it's a self-fulfilling prophecy with like all of this military stuff. It's like if you want to create these, you know, people who are terrorists and, they're going to fit the mold you put them in you know I will say that on a personal level I don't totally have an issue with the government spying on citizens I know and actually

this is so so much overlap but I just was reading a book that I've not finished reading but they're talking about um how a lot of the things the government can do is they can like hold on to information but not look at it and be like we'll look at it later if we need to you know so that they can like get around being like we're not spying on everyone like we're just like holding your information in case you do something wrong then we're going to go back and look through what you've done you know like when we suspect you of something we'll look back on all that stuff but I'm also like fine with cookies because I'm like don't show me ads or shit I don't want show me ads or stuff I want yeah I'm totally full with

the surveillance state that we're in past that the um it's interesting because if 9-11 hadn't happened you wouldn't have known that 9-11 hadn't happened and so it's easy I think now we look at like Snowden and the prison program and all that stuff. I'm like, this is awful. The government's doing all this. It's like, yeah, but you don't know what didn't happen because they did that, you know? Right. If they had

or what they could have would they have stopped potentially since then? Yeah. Yeah. So, so. I would rather have them read my emails than not go through 9-11 again. Dude, go even further. Like, go even further.

Like, if you could actually preempt any like school shooters like do that too like I don't know that stuff I mean those people but those people are fucking saying that shit online all the time anyway you know they always look back and they're like oh look that person said he's going to kill everybody at school on Reddit you're like well

someone should have gone and talked on him yeah so that's what I'm saying I'm saying surveil more yeah I agree I'm not doing anything wrong so I agree which is probably not the stance that I should have but also I'm like I'd like them to stop the baddies Yeah, we're on the same page

I don't know where that aligns That's one of the things I was saying about When I was thinking about the Ezra Klein show I was like I have no idea when he's talking to someone Like are they liberal or conservative Which is like a sign of like a really good interviewer Which is like I have no idea Like it's Ezra Klein so you know what he is

But like still like Yeah I'm just listening to this person's thoughts on this thing Yeah yeah so anyways that's my story i know it's not there wasn't like a ton here but like i just went down this rabbit hole the serial listen to the serial thing because i listened to all of them back to back it was i was pretty obsessed with it and i walked away not feeling the way i think they wanted the audience to feel but i'm curious if anybody else to listen to it or write in at last what's our show called doomed to fail

boris has just plugged like 7000 other podcasts in this episode so if you are looking for something to listen to far as we'll plug 7000 other podcast for you in this episode we are doomed to fail

but I chose at doom to fill and tell us if you listen as oh my god the serial podcast season three

I'm gonna stop talking to you got to take over um yeah let us know what you think about all these things it's a complex question

and thank you for us to bringing it up and I want to um yeah it's those there's so many things happening right now that are like

oh I'm going to talk about this too let's just get to mine that are like science fiction but happening in real life and not science fiction but like crime fiction like all that stuff like has happened you know and that I think is something that's interesting that like well I'll tell you I'll tell you about this in five minutes but a lot of things that happened in like 1980s about the internet it happened in movies first and then the government was like oh no could that really happen and then they were like oh shit yeah you know like whatever you can imagine it's probably happening or has happened yeah yeah for sure and that's which is

crazy. Yeah. Wow. You just, um, is this everything everywhere all at once? I didn't see that yet. I feel, it's not good. I feel stressed out about it because I feel like I, I'm supposed to think it's good. And I don't know if I'm going to. And, oh my God, last night, went to the movies and saw if the new children's movie about imaginary friends. And it was awful. It was like Ryan Reynolds again, just like, do you, playing Ryan Reynolds? Do you, can you do anything else? It's so weird. Do you have any other tone in your voice? I don't think so. Have you ever played any other character

about yourself? Anyway, wildly bad. Yeah. Here's saying, I don't want anybody to feel bullied into liking movies that aren't good. I watch that movie because everywhere, everything, all at once, whatever it's called.

Because I was being told that it's the best I'm ever going to see and it's going to blow my mind. It's going to be the most amazing thing. And I watch it like, this is just nonsense. That's why I'm afraid to see it because I've already heard that. So like when someone says that, you're like, oh shit you know like you've heard that because i brought that up and i got like lambasted for saying no no no i've heard that it was great so that's that makes me nervous to watch it because i'm worried

that i'm not going to love it and then i'm going to have to like live with that and then like i don't know live like you hey live your truth live your truth live your truth live your truth i like what you like that's not the lesson of this of this episode but you know um yeah let's end the Gitmov, so like what you like. Anyways. Okay, so that's the episode. Is there anything you want to tell us, Taylor, before we bounce and go to your episode? I do.

I have, I want to share this in a more professional way later, but my husband, Juan Carlos, has a website called readwancarlos.com. And on it, he talks a lot about mental models in decision making. And he has this really cool deck of cards that he just made. He has a book. You can download a deck of cards with like over 100 different. mental models and ways of thinking on them and I was going through the deck the other day and two of them we talked about in our last episodes mutually assured destruction and the Swiss cheese model are

both one of the cards in his deck so I look pictures of them and I'll share them and tell everybody where to buy it because it's super interesting and helpful for you know jobs group people just thinking about how you're thinking and different strategies so I will share it love it he also has an app and he's an app mental models app there you go and it's free to download Mm-hmm. Nice. Everybody download apps. Yeah.

Awesome. Way to go. Sweet. Anything else? Nope. Find us on social, um, Doom to Fail pod on everything.

I don't know. Our website, I need, we need to talk about it because I can't get it to work. Which is such a bummer because it's so good, but the DNS isn't working. I don't know why.

Um, I, we can do the, take this offline. Yeah. I'll take it offline. We'll do it later. Um,

Yes, find us to the Dumanafel pod on the socials and write to us at Duminafelpot at gmo.com. Yay. Sweet. Thank you. Thank you.