Doomed to Fail - Ep 11: In Bloom - Kurt Cobain & Tulipmania

Episode Date: March 13, 2023

Tiptoe through the Tulips with us! This week Taylor talks the Tulipomania that swept through Holland in the 1600s - and Farz tells the tragic grungy story of Kurt Cobain.Taylor would like to bring up that Freshman year of college she got a C in Economics and there was a dude who definitely cheated off her - then years later she saw that dude in a bar and he yelled “Hey!! We got a C in Econ!”And, in the epic battle of good and evil, Farz is team Courtney Love. Follow us on Instagram & Facebook!  @doomedtofailpodhttps://www.instagram.com/doomedtofailpod/https://www.facebook.com/doomedtofailpodPics via the creative commonsNirvana’s Rolling Stone Cover Doc - The Tulip BubbleBook - TulipomaniaBook - Memoirs of Extraordinary Popular Delusions: The Madness of CrowdsOH! Amazon tells Taylor that she purchased this from Amazon on August 9, 2016. Checks out. Join our Founders Club on Patreon to get ad-free episodes for life! patreon.com/DoomedtoFailPodWe would love to hear from you! Please follow along! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doomedtofailpod/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/doomedtofailpod  Youtube:  https://www.youtube.com/@doomedtofailpod TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@doomed.to.fail.pod Email: [e-mail] 

In a matter of the people of the state of California, first is Hortonthal James Simpson, case number B.A.019. And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country. Okay. So we're recording, and I don't remember. Actually, let's do the intro first. Okay. Don't you do it?

Yeah. Welcome to Jim to Vail. That's right. Welcome to Doom to Fail. I'm Fars. Join here with my co-host, Taylor. And every week we're in you a true crime and a historical story about relationships that are doomed to fail.

Taylor, how are you doing today? I'm good. I told you a second ago, I'm on kind of on vacation. I'm in a gorgeous, like, mansion, Airbnb in Temecula, California. It's raining, but it's a beautiful house. So it's fun. I just made breakfast for a bunch of people and came up here. Did you rent the whole house?

Yeah. Nice. That's what you do it. We have, well, I mean, there's, we used to be just adults and now we're six adults and six kids. So there's a lot going on. There's a full house. Thanks for the time to actually do this and record today.

Got it. Here in Austin, it is south by, south by southwest starts now. So I'm doing everything in my power to avoid downtown and anything like an Austin native. Good job. Yeah, I would assume that's typical. or standard. So I don't remember who goes first this week? I think I do. You go first? Okay. Do you have a drink in mind? I do. Do you want to do yours first and then I'll go into mine?

I'm going to Google my drink right now because I totally forgot to come up with the drink. Okay. I'll tell you mine. Okay. Mine is a Heineken, which is a beer from Holland. Do you remember, did you watch Mad Men? No, I did not. Oh, there's like a thing in a Madman where the Don Draper is like obviously an advertising guy. And they do this thing where they are trying to get people to buy Hineken. And so they put it in, like, grocery stores and they make the end to cap, like, you know, the end of the display, like a big, like a windmill and stuff to be like, oh, it's from Holland. And then he has all of his, like, work friends over.

And his wife is like, oh, I got this beer. It's called Hineken. It's from Holland. And all of the advertising guys are like, yeah, like, we got her. Like, it worked. And then she was really pissed because she was like, you set me up to find this beer in the store and, like, fall for her. ad anyway i'm going to holland i'm recovering madben no but but i always think about that someone will know you know you know you know if you know if you know you know awesome uh i so i didn't think of a

drink but i think given the location of my story it needs be coffee and also yeah i was drinking coffee too and also it's the morning here so it makes sense it all tracks and sorry you said you're the one who goes first this week yeah okay all right all right so the other day when you this is I have like 17 tensions but when you did the toolbox killers you were like oh maybe I'm going to do friends not just romantic relationships and I was like that's a great idea because I don't think I can sustain this for like years with just like romantic relationships of history you know and like trying to find ones and like my cousin just sent me one and all these things but I'm also thinking like what about like other things that were failures like other like crazy times in history that maybe don't have like like specific people involved, but they were like a crazy thing. So that's kind of what I'm going into today. I also was like, so here's a little bit of backstory. Once in 2016, I was looking at my Kindle and I found this book that I don't remember how it got there. Like I don't remember downloading it, but it is called, I'm going to, it's called Extraordinary Popular Delusion.

and the madness of crowds. And it was written in 1841 by a Scottish journalist named Charles McKay. And it's like stories of people who are like kind of like doing crazy things and like more people are doing it together. And so like I don't know how I got it on my Kindle, but I think that I probably downloaded it when I, because it was 2016. So I was like mad that people were like falling for Donald Trump. And I was like, what is wrong with people?

You know, that's why I think I got it. if that makes sense the through line is there i understand that um did you have a big cow skull on your wall now is that new so i had it in my other i had it up at the other house and i it was actually sitting on the ground here since i moved into this house and i finally decided to put it up it's very texas i like it i did a screenshot wait smile i'm gonna do another one keep us in perfect it's just you okay great um i just saw it that's great So this is like what I'm thinking about what this book is about. So this book is divided into three parts.

There's national delusions, which are like rumors, myths and legends, like the Crusades is like one of the examples in that one. Then there's peculiar follies, like alchemists and spiritualists. There's a chapter called haunted houses about like people falling for like seances and things like that that we talked about before. And there's another chapter on philosophical delusions, like people who think the world is flat, which is like always been a problem, which is. hilarious. So a lot of stuff that like we'll talk about today, stuff that we see constantly, like even now. So this, sorry, so this book is basically just a discussion of different variations of delusions and where they originally. Okay. Okay. That sounds awesome. That's interesting. It's really fun. So it's a, it's a delight. So today we're going to talk about

tulips, the flower. And specifically tulip mania in Holland in 1636 and 1637. Have you heard about this? No. Okay, great. So it's like a whole, it's a, it's a fun thing. I was like, I'm going to do something really easy this week because I'm going on vacation. And then all of a sudden I'm like learning about botany and economics, but whatever. So here we are. So I watched a documentary called the Tulip Bubble. I read a book called Tulabomania, another book about it. Book is very dry. There's a lot of like numbers and we'll talk a little bit about conversion. What they use guilders is like their, their money that they're using at this time. So there, I have, you know, a list of kind of like some conversions that we'll talk about in a little bit. So can you picture a tulip? What is a tulip? It's probably the

most generic looking flower outside of a rose, right? That's fair. Like a bulb on top of a stem. It actually that like it comes from like kind of like the seed. It looks like an onion. So it's like a big bulb. You plant it and then the flower grows out of it. And the flower, it's, itself only lasts for a few months and then you like cultivate the bulb and you do it again right now 80% of the world's tulips come from the netherlands and the actual flower is grown in these like really beautiful tulip fields or there's like lines of different color tulips it's really nice and then but really they want the bulbs so the bulbs they can like send all over the world and it's like mother and daughter bulbs where some of them will grow new flowers some of them won't whatever there's like

ways to put things together to make a tool up. So we're in Holland in the 1600s and the economy is booming like more than other parts of Europe because there have just been a bunch of wars over there but in Holland everything has kind of avoided those wars. So they're not ruled by a royalty. They're ruled by citizen councils, which gives people a lot of autonomy and like the ability to like move up in society. And this creates a middle class for the first time ever. So for the first time ever, people have money and they don't have, like, a way to invest it because there isn't, like, a really, like, solid banking system. There isn't really a solid stock market. You can't really get in unless you are, like, Uber rich, but the middle class are looking for ways to, like, invest their money.

And this story is, like, you could just plop it over any time period and find a story that's, like, very similar to this of just, like, people trying to get rich quick, you know? Yeah, it actually reminds me of the most. recent last podcast episode of the Essex about how that's how you invested you just bought into a whaling ship and that was the stock market back then yeah exactly exactly you could like buy a boat or like you know buy more land but you didn't like weren't able to like like put your do like money things just with just money exactly so there's also the Dutch East India company that's trading and making the country really rich they also are enslavers are enslaving a lot of people but they're getting a lot of money from that there's also like some of the best painters coming from this time

like the girl with a pearl earring, that Vermeer that I'm sure you've seen, and Rembrandt, it's like a golden age of like art and things. And people started to think like, as it got more money, like, what can I do to like both like glorify God and show, you know, that I have all this money? So they started building gardens. And they, you know, didn't want to like cover themselves in gold. So they would build these really big gardens. So.

Sorry. So that was the way to reflect that you were wealthy? Yeah. okay yeah yeah so to do a little bit of conversion and I'll come back to this like if I was going to buy I guess this is a hilarious I have a hilarious table but eight fat pigs are 240 guilders four fat oxen are 480 guilders so like and you could buy a ship for 500 guilders so like this is like how much think start thinking about that money conversion and I'll come back to that but like we said ship last because that's 500 guilders well how much was a what was the other one eight fat pigs were 240 guilders wow a ship's kind of a bargain then it is kind of a bargain okay i don't know what kind a silver drinking cup is 60 guilders so people start so that's like as people are paying for things so that's holland that's where we are at this time period people are starting to have more money for the first time and that's where the

tulip starts to kind of be introduced into popular popular culture Tulips actually come from Central Asia and Persia. Kazakhstan has a lot of the native tulips in nature. They're shorter and they're really good in like colder weather. So they work in places that like high up in the mountains and they don't need a lot of like sunlight. Right now it's also a time. It's like a Renaissance time. So people are starting to get interested in science.

You know, they're like dissecting bodies for the first time and, you know, doing that like in public and like learning more about anatomy and learning about botany really for the first time. really, like, made it a science yet. And I say first time, like, in this time period, I'm sure that, like, ancient people thought about botany in different ways and people we don't know, but in this period. So there's a botanist named Carlos Clusius, Carolus Clusius, and he's like one of the first people to be a botanist and to bring the tulip into the Netherlands. He never makes a lot of money, but his friends, like, take care of him. And he ends up getting a job with the University of Leiden and starting this first, like, botany school and he started breeding them and to breed them i think you have to move the pollen of one

to another one and then like like a male and a female but like put their pollen together in a way that you that's like unexpected and that can make like a different color tulip i think that sounded very scientific doesn't it sound scientific i in the documentary i watched someone had a cue tip of pollen and was like putting it on like the stem the steam it's i don't know anyway he started breeding them, which made different colors of tulips for the first time, you know, they were, like, really pretty and they have, like, cool stripes and stuff. So, right, the tulips during the tulip craze that everybody wanted were white with these, like, really dark red stripes going up them. And I'll share pictures of them, like, they're really beautiful. But it's actually a virus that makes them that color. But they just didn't know anything about viruses. I actually thought the tools were always one color. I didn't know that you could get, I'm going to look up picture of tulips now. Yeah, it's like a red and white striped one. This is the silent portion of the podcast. The visual portion. Wow, those are really cool looking. They look like marbles almost.

Yeah, they're really pretty. But it's a virus that makes them that color, so it's hard to predict. And tulip bulbs, all onions. So it's hard to really tell what's going to happen when you have the bulb and what kind of flower it's going to actually turn into. See, this is why I can't get into gardening, because I don't have the patience for this. Like, you get the bulbs, you plant them, you wait. months and months for them to actually grow into a thing then you can cross-pollinate them and you don't know what you're doing and maybe actually hold on wait a minute like so if you cross-pollinate

okay so so hold on so there is no there's no there's no there's no eggs so like what do you get no okay exactly so that's a good question good question so what you get is after the dies you dig up the root and the root is a new bulb so that bulb you can continue to like plant but if you put like the new pollen in it it will change like the anatomy of that bulb i have no idea does that sound that could be true i feel like i don't know i mean if you say anything with confidence it's people are going to believe you but like i mean that sounds like so hold on so okay so you do this weird plant sucks thing and then in theory that generates this bulb that only is produced after the death of the female flower. Okay. Yes, yes. It's sort of like

if you were, it is sort of like an onion if it had a flower at the top of it. You know, like you have like, you like that concept. Yeah, yeah, that concept I'm familiar with. It's just like, it's just, it never dawned on me like what is the actual reproductive component of all this. Well, so yeah, Okay. I guess, yeah, you get a bulb. Cool. Yeah. Yeah. So some people were trying to make their tulips different colors. They didn't understand really how it happened. So they would like dissect them and try to splice the bulbs together. They would just soak them in red wine, you know, like trying to figure out how to do it. All good ideas. But it ended up being something kind of super unpredictable. Because it's, they're pretty and they're rare. They start to get more expensive, you know, like anything. And there's some fun stories about like, and they may or may not be true, but of like someone going. to someone's house and like seeing a tulip bulb and thinking it's an onion and eating it and then like the guy's like that was so expensive and then like you know someone else like dissecting it because they're like what is this interesting onion and then the person being like I can't believe you would do this like sending them to jail like people are really freaking out about it there's a lot of

kramer-esque antics that we're going on with through the bulbs exactly exactly so then this is where it starts to get like in like economics so in this time there's also a lot of like gambling happening in pubs. I don't know, like always. And they describe these pubs and in the documentary that I watched, they do a great, like, reenactment of the pub because you can imagine people, like the men have, like, those big, big frilly collars, you know, they go out like six inches, like around their, around their necks and like, you know, big, like, fun outfits on. And everyone smokes constantly. And they think, like, it's also like there's like the plague sometimes during this time so I think that smoking will keep you healthy from that and they smoke in these like

really cool long like I'm sure you like a long white pipe so you're in this pub there's a lot of gambling everyone's a little bit drunk everyone's smoking you can't really see across the room because it's full of smoke also like on like the fireplaces and everything people start to trade tulip bulbs in these pubs like in the back rooms and so they weighed them like you would weigh gold and they used like the measurement for weighing gold and ACE to weigh the tulip bulbs. I don't even know if the weight of the tulip bulb has any effect on the flower itself, but that's like how they were selling them. Yeah, I mean, I guess it makes sense.

You break anything down. It's like that's how you, the unit measurement, like it's the weight. How much is the weight? How much is this much caviar, this much gold? Yeah, exactly. So they did, they had, obviously since, you know, it was a long time ago, they had like chalkboards. Everybody had like a little chalkboard. And the person selling the tulip bulb would put down what they would.

would accept as a bid and give it to like the guy in charge. Then the guy in charge would collect little chalkboards from every person and every person's bid would be on there and that he would find like the bid that made the most sense, show it to the seller and the seller would either agree or disagree and then that was how it would get sold. So people were just kind of following along. You could trade and sell the same bulb like several times in a night,

you know, just like have like the value kept increasing because people were willing to buy it. And it started to turn into something like, an NFT because it didn't exist like you would be trading a bulb that didn't for a flower that doesn't exist so the tulip isn't really the thing anymore people don't really care about the flower they care about the value of the bulb some of the like really pretty ones and like most famous ones may never have even existed because they had like these beautiful books that they would get and see all these paintings of these different tulips but no one had ever like seen it and you couldn't

guarantee anything anyway but they would be like oh this bulb is going to be this beautiful tulip and just like that value is based on that assumption that may or may not have been true but it didn't really matter and were these things getting planted not even really because this happens and like happened in like a year and it takes a year for this whole thing to happen anyway so what it turned into is a futures market and now I'm like oh god and I'm trading on futures like oh my god this is spayed over my head but I need to call my dad because he used to be a commodities broker in Chicago so he would totally understand this the fact that you just called out like NFTs like the hair just stood on the back of my neck

I know trading in futures is buying something is having the right to buy something at a certain time in the future at a certain price now you have ownership of something that doesn't exist yet but you're saying when it exists I'm going to pay this much money so you can make a lot of money if you say like I'm going to pay for you know $300 for this in six months and if in six months it's worth $600 you just made $300 so there's like a But it is a gamble. So they're trading it again and again and again before the tulip bulb even exists. Sometimes it hasn't even come out of the ground yet.

And they're saying, like, I own this tulip bulb and they have this little piece of paper, and they're trading it back and forth. So you're able to, like, agree that the price is going to be this much in the future. And so people just kept trading and trading. And it gave people the ability to make a lot of money really quickly. Makes sense. That makes sense. And, as you know, everyone loves a get rich quick scheme.

so everyone started to get involved in it so a ton of people like sold their houses sold all their stuff to get into this toilet market because with the assumption that it would never go down so taylor one thing i'm confused up was this literally the only access point for building wealth at the time it was it wasn't like the only one but and like this only this is this whole thing only happens over a few months so i think it was like a exciting quick one that was like on the news not on the news obviously but Like, people were talking about it. You'll pay attention to, yeah. This was the game stop of their generation.

Exactly. You can put it over so many things that are happening today and be like, oh, that was valued at this and that was valued at nothing, you know. Okay. So people were buying them at 10% of the future price. So if I pay $10 for a future price of $90, I sell it for $200, you know, I made $100, all those things. So at the height of the craze, some tulip bulbs were selling for more than 10 times. the annual income of a skilled craftsman that's like you know how I said like a boat was like 500 guilders they would sell for like 10,000 guilders for a tool that like didn't exist with the

assumption that the price would continue to go up I know that hindsight is 2020 this is really stupid though I know what is just the stock market it's just like the same thing you're like assume someone's going to have value and continue to go up no it's not like that because the the thing that you are investing in can generate money. This is a bulb for a tulip that can't generate anything but a singular tulip. But they assume that the value of that tulip is going to go up and up. But to your point, no one ever gets a tulip. Well, okay, so like maybe if the theory was, I'm going to, I'm going to, if this is the market, I can get a second mortgage on my house, buy two really pretty, I assume, toolups that'll generate a very pretty...

But then you paid for the two tulips. And whatever. I'm not going to ascribe... No one never really got a tool up. It was all just speculation. Because it was all like, you know, I assume that this tulip is going to keep rising. So people keep buying it. And then assuming that some, they'll always have a buyer.

So... So, no, I... Okay. People do crazy shit. Okay. We'll just leave it to that. Okay. There's a story of a man named Wootterwinkle who,

who died and left his children a bunch of tulip bulbs, like actual tulip bulbs, that sold to go into the market. And his kids made 90,000 guilders, which is like enough money to be billionaires. They were like the richest people in town. And then at the height of the of the tulip mania, people are, you know, selling their things, putting all their money into tulips, assuming that this will never ever go down. People just stop bidding on them. And as soon as the prices stop going up, people freak out and sell them, and that is a bubble. So it's just like the housing bubble, just like the tech bubble. It's, you know, valued and valued and valued until it's not. And then everybody panic sells. And so people are ruined because they lost all of their money

and they cannot sell these tulip bulbs to anyone and they can't get their money back because they had done that like promise the person they bought it wrong. This feels like when I bought Tesla stock, like literally right before Elon Musk put a bit out on Twitter. And when we all realized that he lost his mind, I was like, oh, no, this is awful. Everything just tanked. Exactly, exactly. So on February 24th, 1637, the Dutch Florist's Guild, because also, like, the government wasn't really involved in this. It was like people in like backrooms of pubs and like florists and things. They made, they had to enter, they had to intercede and save some people, because basically they had to do bailouts because people were like lost all their money.

So they made some rules that like contracts after a certain time were null and void. You could get a certain percentage back and get like a certain percentage of the contract price back. But other than that, like people sort of moved on after it. But it was like one of the, it's like a documented time of people kind of going crazy over a thing, learning about trading, learning about futures, trying to figure out like how they can make the most money with the assumption that things will never. ever stop being expensive and then that bubble bursting and people's lives being ruined in like a very short period of time that makes sense taylor did you do this because of silicon valley bank no i just that happened yesterday but that's weird timing still happening i know no totally like

having a run on the bank is the same as having like some people stop bidding on tulips it's um yeah it's i think it's i mean i'm i'm terrible at economics um i've taken a lot of economics classes and like it's hard for me to wrap my head around it. But like when you see things like this, you're like, oh, this is the same thing that has happened forever, um, whether it's like now with my, you know, virtual money in a bank or then with all my like little pieces of paper saying I own tulips that don't exist yet. You know what? I also did this with Bitcoin. I also bought Bitcoin at the highest. I literally only buy high and sell low. That's the only way of what you're supposed to do. I know, I know. I'm not good at it. Yeah. That's really cool. So a question, why was it

tulips and not like roses or whatever good question i think it was just because they were um like new and they were like rare because they take a while to cultivate they take that like full year cycle so you can be like oh i have it for you know a little bit of time and then um you have to like take the bulb out take good care of it over the winter and then like replanted in the spring so i think it was just because they have like that like long life cycle and you know they were new and they were getting these like beautiful varieties because of a virus like that they couldn't control they didn't really understand it but still they were like seeing that so i think that was part of it it was you know kind of a it's like exciting new thing yeah because i already had roses so

it wasn't it wasn't cool you know the other weird synchronicity here taylor is after i finished recording this i'm going to go to home depot and buy a bunch of plants because i realized they need to like start taking care of like the garden space near the house nice well now that was the time to buy tulip because they're also a very Easter flower. So you'll have them out for Easter. And then also now a day is because of like science and technology and everything. Like you don't have to wait that long. You can buy tulips any time. You know, like they've like modified them to be able to like, you know, grow at different times. And they're a lot more like, you know, you can use them a lot differently than it wasn't like back then where you had to like really have to wait. So in this case, is there a doom to fail premise or were we just completely. ending that the red flag part of this no i i am i know i think i think it's a it's a group failure you know that's what i that's what i think it really is because i think well like the the the book the memoirs of extraordinary popular delusions it's like people you know together making a decision to do something that is you know in hindsight kind of crazy you know

that so would this be a classification of folly adieu ad do no i do no because it's it's more than just two people like folly adieu is like if Like, you and I are, like, locked in a house together, and I convinced you that someone was trying to kill us, so we kill each other. Like, that's all you do. But it's a, like, it's like a group delusion, you know, where people are like, I have all this stuff. Like, I have all this, you know, these pieces of paper that say on this thing that's going to increase in value. And then you're like, oh, my God, I want it. I'll pay you more.

And then I paid you. And, like, people just kept doing it, assuming that, like, the price would always go up. So I think it's a, it's a failure. And I think it's one of those things that afterwards, they were, like, embarrassed. Yeah. They were like, oh, we went a little nuts with the tulip thing. And then they're like, some people have like lost a lot of stuff. Some people lost a lot of money, but they were already rich.

They were like, me, but also like with the game stop thing, then like the poorer people, the people who have the least amount of money do you have the most to lose because they are, you know, investing in something at like with more money than they might have. Did you watch the Game Stock documentary on Netflix? No, I didn't. These people made so much money. They made so, they made like retirement, like 20 year olds were made. making retirement money. I forgot one guy put like 50K in or something and cashed out

$8 million. It was unbelievable. Yeah, and that's the people who cashed out get it. And then some people didn't and lost everything, right? Yeah. Yeah. So cool. Well, thanks for sharing that, Taylor. I'm going to look at tools when I go to Home Depot and I'm probably going to plant them because I'm lazy and I just need something that's going to keep coming back year over year. And tulips don't sound like you over year. No, I really don't. That I feel like that's too much. the idea of like having to plant the same flower every year because that doesn't come back that feels exhausting. Yeah.

Miracles. But. So, okay, well, I'll make the transition over to the ever-shifting premise of the show, which should be true crime, but in my case is actually not true crime. So great, there we'll mix it up. We'll mix it up to this week. Oh, no. Episode 11, new show.

Exactly. Well, I started out researching, I was going to do Michael Allig. you know who that is no i don't look it up so you can do it later or tell me yeah no i'll i'll tell you i don't think i'm going to do it now but i started doing that because so michael alegg is part of the club kid scene that was part of this new york club you recognize this i take it from your place the mcculley colkin in the monster party monster yeah yeah that's exactly it's it's

party monster is the dramatized version of michael aleg the only really famous one that people would recognize now is ruPaul was part of them um and michael alick ended up killing somebody and going to jail for a long time he got released and he died actually recently um but whatever i have um i have been to limelight that club what's it like it's it was cool i mean i think it's closed a long time ago but um it's in a it's in an old church which it's cool you know yeah i think our former employer through a party there actually for a book release yeah um so i started i started watching party monster this week because i was like i'm going to do Michael Allig and so I should probably reference the movie and in the movie

Marilyn Manson's in him and he he basically plays Courtney Love is the only way I can describe it just like this like totally insane druggie junkie whatever and I was like you know what I got a better idea for this week so again the story this week is not going to be true crime in nature but it's going to definitely hit on the red flaggy parts of the show's premise So I've already given enough to indicate what I'm going to be talking about, but I'm still going to pretend like I haven't and just read the outline. Perfect. So I'll start by saying that this is a rock and roll story, obviously.

And because it's a rock and roll story, there's going to be a lot of legacy building. And so because of that, people are going to have a ton of feelings and passion about like what I'm going to be discussing here today. But because there's a lot of legacy building, there's a lot of conflicting stories out there in terms of when things happened, who was there. when it happened. Everybody wants to be a part of the story, which is, I think, a common human phenomenon when certain famous people pass. Outside of like pure facts, there's a bit of speculation here. My pure facts, I mean, location, manner, time of death, things like that, things that can be scientifically proven by objective third parties. Outside of that, it's like a lot of just junkies

telling stories to each other, basically. You're a rock and roll guy. I feel like you're the guy to tell this story. Am I a rock and roll guy? No, I'm just kidding. Thank you. So obviously, today we're talking grunge, which means we're talking Nirvana and Kurt Cobain and Courtney Love, which is like one of the most probably red flaggy relationships that's ever existed in human history. When Nirvana was at its peak and Kurt ultimately died, I was not of an age where I cared about these things. Like, I think he died when I was around nine years old. So I was, I don't know. I was doing what nine year olds do. I don't know exactly what that would be probably you know caring about dinosaurs power rangers things like that not hardcore

grunge rock my brother was though my brother would have been 14 so i remember going to whatever store probably version version stores and like him buying the uh never mind album cd in like the one was like in like the tall cd boxes yeah yeah i remember my mom asking the guy at the store like what's nirvana and he was like something that happens when you get like your tooth pulled or something he just said something weird to her was he trying to be funny i think so i think so oh i guess yeah i guess they guess you so yeah so at that time i'd never really like i didn't understand the ramification of this i was just not of that not of that age group but it's weird i got so much more exposure to it and you accidentally got some exposure to it as well so kurt was raised

in aberdeen which i've yeah i've been through there because my my ex is father's family was from hoquium and so we'd go there and visit quite a bit and because you came to my wedding you've also been through Aberdeen Taylor I think I have and I remember being there and being like this place is so fucking depressing I can absolutely see why you would create grunge music here yeah like that's yeah I actually put down here I'm like I doubt any of the your stroll through Aberdeen was actually memorable but it sounds like it was because it is exactly what you described it as I knew I knew where I was you know I think I was like you know it was like trailer parks and yeah yeah it's wet rained it rains there yeah yeah it's a so it's on a it's on a bay it had to be because it was actually a logging town so ships would come in collect the timber and then put them on boats and go wherever they're going so it's no coincidence that in the late 80s and early 90s exactly when Kurt's coming up logging had become a much less viable industry in the area simply because they tap that resource completely there

there was nothing left to mine for there essentially so the town geographically is lovely because it is on this bay it is the pacific northwest it's lush it's green look Olympic national forest is like maybe 20 minutes from from here i mean i you know and that is one of the most beautiful tranquil places that exists in the united states and aberdeen's like right outside of that but given the fact that they tap this mining resource completely this timber resource completely the area is just economically depressed like to your point it's just like a blown out town like you just you know I when I would be there I didn't want to like talk badly about it obviously yeah because of like family connections but I was yeah I just I was like everybody here has to be

doing meth like you you look at that town and you're like of course everybody hears on drugs like what else is there to do? There's nothing else here. Yeah. So that's where Kurt was raised. So one thing that I actually found really, really lovely about Aberdeen, despite everything I literally just said about it, is that one of my favorite Nirvana songs, like everybody's favorite Nirvana songs is Come As You Are. And there's a welcome sign when you get into Aberdeen that says, welcome to Aberdeen, come as you are, which I thought was really lovely. So going back to the main character, Kurt was born in 1967, and I would describe his childhood as accurately reflected in his music. Not that he wrote about his childhood at all, but then when I think about Nirvana, I think of

teenage angst, really. Like, it's just angsty music. That was what it sounds like his childhood was. His parents were divorced. He was a mad kid. He was aimless. The parents were remarried. The step-parents sucked. There was domestic violence and their substance abuse. It sounds like the divorce was a huge triggering. factor for him like he talks about it over and over and over again and later later in his life like he thought he had this idyllic family or he would have this idyllic family and that divorce really seemed to have been like the thing that put him in this heads the mind space of just being like an angsty teenager so all the factors basically existed that would produce a guy like kirt would

eventually become some of the stories i read about him seemed like just great indicators of his eventual personality his parents would sign him up for little league and he would intentionally strike out so he just wouldn't have to play he was apparently like a pretty good wrestler and he hated it he hated being good at wrestling you just wanted to like rebel against everything yeah totally when he was in high school he befriended like the gay kid in school because when everyone thought he was gay they would leave him alone because they didn't want to i mean you remember what that was like back when we're in yeah that was a whole thing he would spray paint god is gay on cars like he was just yeah he was just like very anti-establishment

i found this picture of him when he was 14 he was in some school band and the other kids around him he's like sitting on these risers and these other kids are so happy and they're having fun and then it's like the kids having a good time he looks like he wants to strangle the drum that it's in front of him like he hates it so much because it's just anything that has to do with normalcy yeah it seemed like at least it seemed like at least yeah so he'd eventually drop out of school and live this like vagabond lifestyle just sleeping on friends couches he started doing his own myth building saying he like slept under this bridge everybody said you couldn't sleep under that bridge because the water would just keep coming and it would just wash you

away he was occasionally homeless he would yeah he would meet girls and just shack up with them for a well and it sounds like he mostly just carried on these relationships for the sake of just having a place to day um and then these women telling him to like get a job and he just would refuse to do so he forms one band early on called the fecal matter which was very short-lived and then he went on to form nirvana in 1987 one of the things i learned here had to do with dave grull who i didn't know this but he was not the original drummer of nirvana he wasn't who was so it's this guy named chad Channing. So their first album ever released, so the big one was never mind, but the first album was called Bleach. And that was recorded with a drummer named Chad Channing. And I really hate

what happened to this guy because, yeah, band people move around and people get fired all the time, but he was so briefly tied to one of the most influential bands in the world. And at that time, he wouldn't obviously know that. And now really nobody knows who he is. Like you literally just ask me, like, who is he? Everybody knows Dave Grohl, but nobody knows Chad. mm-hmm one thing that there wasn't there like a beetle too like a guy who was in the Beatles that got left before they became famous I don't know that's like that always happens there's definitely a guy a guy who was supposed to be in BTS and then like got kicked out at the very end and he was like he's like I was just like a regular

guy and he's like I miss my friends but like yeah like it's got it's got a it's I mean I don't know how BTS history maybe they he knew was gonna be really big at that time but like in this case like nobody knew Nirvana was going to what it is it's like you miss out you miss that show apparently in 2013 nirvana that was the year nirvana got inducted into the rock and roll hall of fame this guy chatt thought he would be in that group but apparently they only included kirk the guitarist this guy named chris and dave gruel and like listen i i actually like i'm going to a little bit of a rance about dave gruel here i love him so much and he's even cooler than i thought he made a point to shout out dave in 2013 for his

contribution to Nirvana into bleach. He'd like reference how he wrote some of the later riffs that they used and he really wanted to make sure that people knew that this guy was a part of the band even though he wasn't called out in the rock run hall of fame. So my sign note about Dave Grohl. So obviously he went on to found food fighters which became a phenomenally successful band in its own right. He apparently is also a pit master these days and regularly feeds the homeless of LA with his barbecue. I saw a picture of doing that recently. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, he did that recently, but he does it regularly apparently. I also watched an interview he did with Howard Stern and I wanted to reach through my monitor and punch Howard Stern for just how

always shitty he is to Dave Grohl like he did he will handle this with such class but at one point because to us Kirk Cobain is just like this what he killed himself it is what it is right like we don't like I have no emotional attachment to the guy but Dave Grohl was like his childhood friend and like they traveled the world together and like Like they were very, very closely tied. And Howard Stern would just say stuff about Kurt's death and just like flippant manner to Dave Grohl that was just really, really off. And he was like, he was like, oh, so wasn't it kind of great that he killed himself because they gave you this opportunity to move on and do food fighters? It was just like, yeah, like Dave just like, um, no, that's not a good thing. Like, you know, he just handled it very class in a classy way, which was really cool to see. So anyways, side rants about. Dave Grohl. So in 1991, that was, like I said before, that was kind of their breakout year.

That was the year that they released, never mind. And I didn't know this, but apparently Nirvana pushing Seattle Grunge is partially the reason why bands like Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Allison Chains, rose in popularity as well. They invented this genre and then everybody's like addicted to it now. So Kurt, by extension, basically becomes the ambassador of this genre that also happens to be the most popular genre of music at the time it sounds like he would hate that okay exactly so so i put this down think about this in modern terms i don't actually know who this guy is now i wrote down maybe it's drake maybe it's justin beber maybe it's bionc i don't really know like is it you do you know i mean i don't know i can't think if anyone who like started a new genre of music i mean

i don't know what about music but like i feel like there's people who are really popular but like all the people you just named their pop stars you know like I don't know like I haven't I don't know I don't know anything new but I'm also not like in the no but but but grunt was like new so this is even bigger than that then so it's even bigger than like a Drake yeah it's yeah it's all new so imagine that so imagine like imagine a guy like Kurt who wants to rebel against everything establishment and now he is this figurehead in corporate america yeah yeah i'm gonna actually get into this like a lot when i get to like the suicide note but like he does not handle this well in his own mind i will say that if kurt

didn't have this self-destruct component to him he actually would have been the exact right guy for this i watched an interview with him and his lack of caring about anything is so quintessentially rock star-ish you should watch like i mean even like the way he was you watch like rock stars now like like i think like i don't really know rock stars whatever like is bono rock star sure i mean he's like younger bono like you look at like how he presents himself you look at how cur presents himself doesn't give a fuck like he's wearing like shoes that the souls are falling off of his jeans are just shredded and tattered like not because he's trying to look cool he literally just does not care his bandmates had reported this this this is like a self-reflection on how little he cares his bandmates had reported that the melody mattered way more to kurt than the lyrics so he'd always come up with the melody and then attach lyrics to it so it's funny because people would dissect every word he said and in one interview someone asked if it's hard coming up with ideas and he goes this is a quote he goes at one point i was just using poetry and just like

garbage that would spew out of me and a lot of times when I write lyrics it's in the last minute because I'm really lazy and then I find myself having to come with an explanation for it well he just didn't care like he was just like okay I guess this fits that lyric or that that melody but I think I think I feel like your original question was like how his personality a different personality like would have enjoyed the fame but then I feel like the music would have been different like you couldn't have been a different person yeah you can't have one you know yeah yeah that's good point so kurt was quoted as saying when you're in the public eye okay he's he's a little bit melodramatic he's a little bit melodramatic I think we can agree on that we can agree on that so yeah this is a quote when you're in the public eye you have no choice but to get raped over and over again they'll take every ounce of blood out of you until you're exhausted I'm looking forward to the future it will only be another year and then everyone will have forgotten about it he's talking about never mind at this point how wrong was that timeline no i know that's hilarious yeah i've i actually now have two versions of smells like smell like teen spirit on my spotify playlist it's the original

and then i have this other one that's like it's a revamped like all rock version of it it's just it sounds fantastic i've definitely gone through phases where i just like listened to never mind over and over again yeah yeah yeah of course i actually went down a pretty deep music wrap whole research in this especially because we know a lot about the bands that influenced kurt in particular so like like the the melvin's if you've never heard of them like that's basically where like the guitar influence kind of comes from the pixies is where that kind of disjointed lyrics that you hear in nirvana songs come from sex pistols that's a lot of that anti-establishment stuff that like he was a he was a musical connoisseur like he his music taste was fantastic i actually like

started I'll send you a list of these bands that I listened to as I was yeah researching this it goes out saying the melodrama piece of it he just never thought that anybody was actually hardcore enough he actually resented his fans in some ways like he thought that if you like nirvana for the music then you had to also like it for the social and political message which is just very anti-establishment and anti-fitting in and he would he's watching kids wearing polos and attending church listener to nirvana and I just like, I think that's a big part of why he basically turned into what he turned into. All this kind of gets us to who he is, his general state of mind, and why things are going to eventually derail.

So on the one hand, you have Kurt, who has become basically music royalty, who at his core is basically just this lost kid with a ton of animosity towards being popular. And on the other hand, you have the other main character of our story, which is Courtney Love. Okay. This is the doomed to fail piece of this. So Courtney has always been portrayed as kind of an afterthought to the story of Kurt and Courtney, except to the extent that she's demonized and villainized in it. Like, everybody thinks that Courtney's essentially like this hangar on. And I'm kind of going to do a bit of like revisionism on her history as well, mostly because Kurt is the main character of the story. And if I went into Courtney's life and the details of what she did, this would just drag off like, 12 hours because she's done a lot she's done a ton of stuff she's not just kurt's wife she she had her own trauma growing up she had her own impactful musical career and and all the stuff that she did with that by some accounts she was more famous than Kurt when they initially met yeah whole is really good who's great i listen to hole too yeah yeah did you uh have you ever seen

200 cigarettes no it's it's like a very 90s movie about a new year's eve party and and she's in it and she's great she's great like the the hustler movie she was on i don't remember the name of it but that she was great in that too like she's great and a lot of stuff she does so yeah there's there's some debate on when they met some say it was before nevermind's release some say it was after nevermind's release but like if it was before then corny was definitely more famous than kurt was because bleach wasn't a big album by all accounts yeah and i wrote here yeah her music's fantastic and there's a lot of stuff that i learned about like according that i didn't know. So if you, do you, if you remember like my apartment back in L.A. in, in Hollywood,

which was like, I guess it was relatively close to where you guys lived back then. But I was right down the street from Jumbo's Clown Room. And so she used to work at Jumbo's Clown Room. Like that was one of her first things that she did while she was trying to get a hole up and running. It's very cool. So however they met, they got married in 1992. They got married in Hawaii. And like, I actually at this point, don't even know if Kurt was stoned out of his mind or if he was actually genuinely happy. He looked really happy in the picture. though. I feel like I can picture those. Let me find them. Yeah. It was it was weirdly like a like a cute wedding for two incredibly grungy people. Mm-hmm. Oh, he does look very happy.

Yeah. So it's worth noting that Kurt was in chronic pain for most of his life due to some stomach issues he had. There's some conflict, again, like there's no facts here. Like there's some conflict about he tells people he's in chronic pain to justify his heroin use or was he in chronic pain and that's why he started using heroin. Like we don't know. It's, Wait, did you hear, like, the stuff that, like, it was because he played his guitar with the wrong hand? No. So I feel like, okay, this might be totally wrong. But I feel like I saw something that the way that he held his guitar was, like, not the natural way that someone should hold their guitar.

And this, and especially with, like, his, like, dexterity, like, he shouldn't with the other hand. But because of that, he was, like, putting weird pressure on his stomach. And that was, like, part of the problem he was having. Oh, well, yeah, that could be, that could be a component of this. sure yeah so we don't know we don't know we if one came before the other but we do know obviously that kurt dabbled in a lot of drugs and alcohol he was not a stickler about the drugs that he used he basically used everything like whatever was there and available at the time he would use like i'm going to get into a lot of his ODs and like some of his ODs yeah so some of his ODs didn't

even involve heroin he was just fine whatever he could find just take it he's numb like totally wanted to numb himself out he would start using heroin in particular often starting in 1986, which I think is the year he formed Nirvana, if I remember what I said correctly earlier. So of all the drugs out there, it seemed like heroin is the last one you'd want to like be using and still be functional on. I've obviously never done it, but I read up a ton on what just opiates in general do, and it seems like it most just numbs you to everything. Some symptoms of opiate intoxication are nodding off suddenly. It slows down your breathing. There's itching, tremor, slurred speech, impaired coordination, clouded things.

thinking, disorientation, impaired memory, basically all the things that are counterproductive to maintaining a career in a family life. I mean, look, obviously, I feel like it just goes without Sam's harbored on this a little bit too much, but Kurt was like an incredibly reckless user because I literally just stayed, I'm going to get into his ODs, and I use plural in that. It almost felt like he knew that his story arc would be more romantic if he died tragically, which is like contributed to his heroin usage. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

okay like this is the part where i stand up for courtney love which i don't know how many people have said that before in the history Courtney really tried to keep him somewhat on the stray narrow which she's a tragic character in her own right like she would also be doing heroin with him and also be doing all kinds of different drugs there's like a whole history of her she got francis being got taken away from them because she said in a vanity fair article that she done did heroin when she was pregnant with like she's not like a she's not like a terribly sympathetic character but in the context of these two she actually did try she was kind of by the time nevermind came out he blew up and became who became she almost became like his manager and

whenever he'd have to go places and she wasn't with him she would always tell drivers that they were not allowed to detour anywhere because oftentimes he would detour and go to a drug dealer and go buy heroin yeah I think part of the public perception of her was kind of rooted in this thing where Kurt is like this free-spirited dude just woo-woo whatever and she's like a taskmaster but she's not really like all she's trying to do is make sure her husband doesn't just like die yeah yeah and like yeah the stories I was reading was like he really he actually really really did love her like when he would disappoint her he would just turn to this like sheepish child and when people saw that they were like oh she's being mean to current it's like no he's just like

feels bad that he disappointed his wife in that moment. I read one story in The New Yorker, which was an article by Michael Azarad called My Time with Kurt Cobain. And Michael actually wrote a biography with Kurt and became pretty close to him throughout his life to the point where Kurt would ask him to attend business meetings with him just so he wasn't surrounded by business people alone. And one of these meetings, he talks about how Kurt got up to go to the bathroom.

He thought Kurt had probably just left because he just took so long to come back. and Kirk came back and was obviously just highest shit on heroin and everybody just kind of ignored it because he's with these business people and like who cares like he's a genius let him do his genius thing which is like let him get fucked up as much as he wants we're going to make money off many ways apparently Michael walks him back to the hotel that he's staying out with Courtney and again like Courtney's just like disappointed in him and that night he ODs yeah at this point yeah at this point they have they have have francis bean so like again think about this from courtney's perspective like you're raising a child you're trying to manage this insane career that you have on your own that your husband has and also this guy just constantly out of his mind doing heroin so in my opinion Courtney's the one who's like she's the one who got fucked in this situation more than her did chris drug use accelerates um quite a bit and at this point so i i counted three odes at this point um where Courtney herself had to be the one to inject him with narcan

to bring him back. Oh, God. Yeah. So it was a tour stop, which is apparently the last one they did. This was in Munich. And Kurt gets actually sick from bronchitis and laryngitis. So he goes to Rome to pursue medical treatment and Courtney meets up with him there. This is March 3rd that Courtney meets him in Rome for medical treatment. March 4th, he ODs again. And this OD actually wasn't heroin. He, he, from what I recall, I didn't write this down, but when I recall, it was like it was alcohol and, um, and rohypnol that he OD's on this time. Yeah, yeah, I don't know why that is. Yeah, but as soon as an addict, you just get whatever you can get, right?

Yeah, he's just trying to numb everything. I mean, yeah, you're right. Yeah, I wrote down this just obviously keeps happening a lot. So later on, Courtney would, again, we don't know the facts. Later on Courtney stated that this was a suicide attempt, we don't know. Because earlier on, they said it's just an OD because part of this is also couching as like he's a genius like geniuses do heroin like right normal totally that's so dumb yeah then they're like it's better if we just say that he oded on heroin then that we say he took pro hypnol and alcohol to try and kill himself basically yeah so after this incident Courtney the bandmates friends they all staged intervention this is on march 25th of

1994 Kurt loses his mind because he is the guy like he's who are you to tell me what to do like I'm I'm Kurt Cobain. Eventually, he agrees to go to rehab. He went to a rehab clinic on March 30th. So five days after this intervention, he goes to rehab clinic. He lasts three days before he scales the fence, takes a cap to LAX, and flies back to Seattle. At this point, nobody knows where Kurt is. So Courtney ends up hiring a private investigator around April 3rd to try and find him again.

He just disappears. Again, we publicly demonize her, but look at what this woman had to do. No, totally. to find her husband who's like abandoning his family to do drugs yeah yeah so on april 8th an electrician came to curtain Courtney's house to install a security system and at that point that is when they discover kurt's body he's one who finds the body he's shot himself under the neck or the chin and he left a suicide note he was also not surprisingly super super high on heroin when they did the autopsy there is some debate as to whether he would have died anyways because of the heroin.

I learned so much about heroin researching this. So the reason it is debated is because we don't know if the amount of heroin in a system that they measured was called free morphine or whether it was total morphine. Free morphine is what you inject at that time. Total morphine is what is in your system always because you're a habitual user. Yeah. If the amount they found that his system was free morphine, then yeah, he would have ODed. He would have died anyways. Whether he would have shot himself or not, he would have died.

If not, then probably not. The gunshots would have had to have taken him out. During the autopsy, it is assumed that he died on April 5th. So again, he flees the place, whatever, the recovery place on the third, gets to Seattle. He sneaks up into this greenhouse that is a two-story greenhouse apparently. And he just kind of chills there doing drugs and whatever he's. doing at that time nobody finds them like apparently there's a bunch of people coming in and out of the house but nobody finds them because I looked at pictures of the house

the green house was separate from the main house and throw junkies and nobody's yeah to plant flowers I've seen that I've seen that too and like yeah like I think like the private investigator missed it too like he didn't even see the house yeah yeah if you want because I know you want to Zillow everything Taylor the house is 171 Lake Washington Boulevard in Seattle The Zestimit is $7.8 million, which given the fact that his guitar alone sold for $6 million, that's a bargain. Yeah. Oh, it's nice.

It has a nice view of, like, some water. It's weird. I actually don't find the house creepy, even though somebody died in it. It does have a, it's a, well, the Zillow picture, it has, like, a smidge of, like, amnativele lights, you know, that is fun. It's huge 8,000 square feet Yeah, it's huge Holy shit

There's only four bedrooms I feel there should be More bedrooms You don't find it creepy Do you? Like when I think about The Tote family And like moving

Living in that house That scares me But living like Yeah That house Kirk Cobain Koebain killed himself And that actually Doesn't scare me

No not really And when did he die This one in 94 So when in 94? April They think it's April 5th Which I really should have Waited three weeks

To do this episode and it would have been on this anniversary and I totally botched it. Boo. So he bought it in, I love Zillow. God, bless Zillow.

They bought it in January, 1994 for $1.4 million. Yeah. And then they sold it, she sold it in 1997 for 2.8 and then it sold in 2020 for seven. Yeah.

Cool. Continue. Okay. Now, your Zillow slew thing is unrivaled. I can love Zillow. I just want I want to everything. It's worth noting that there were other moments that were building up to this.

Again, going back to Courtney's life being a living hell. So the gun Kurt used actually wasn't his own because his guns had been confiscated multiple times by the police because there are multiple reports of courting call on the cops saying Kurt has locked himself in a bathroom, highest shit on heroin with a loaded gun and threatening to kill himself. So this is reported. Yeah, they show up be like, okay, we'll just, we're just going to go ahead and take your guns away from you. Um, but yeah, what a living hell. So on the conspiracy side of this, there's a ton of conspiracy surrounding Kurt's death. Most of them revolve around Courtney having killed Kurt, which these people are generally pretty awful. So the people who are saying this stuff for the most part are at best tangentially connected to Kurt and Courtney.

They're basically just like these hangers on and losers. So this includes the private investigator who Courtney initially hired to find Kurt. he also said Courtney must have killed him which is like what a loser like you you want to become famous like there were two documentaries I came out at the same time I'm about this in yeah there's a time ago there's so many documentaries about this I've watched one of them last night actually also Courtney's father came out saying that Courtney probably killed Kurt like how the fuck do you know yeah I wrote this down because apparently during the divorce or Courtney's divorce proceeding or during

Courtney's parents divorced proceeding there were several people that came out and testified that her dad the one who said that she killed Kurt also used to dose her with LSD when she was a toddler oh yeah like there was a ton of other allegations against him

no matter what he had full custody revoked for ever like seeing her when she was a when she was a kid so that I was trying to be in the news like yeah like I'm I'm relevant I'm important I know Courtney love I'm her dad I should probably talk about the side note for a bit. So it's, it's kind of long. It's at least, it's at least a full page and length, maybe a little bit longer than that. And it starts out really just talking about his

career about how he knows he should be enjoying this more than he really is. He references Freddie Mercury in it. And he says that he really paid attention to how much Freddie Mercury enjoyed like the adoration of crowds. And he was like, I wish I could be like him and like enjoy it the way he enjoys it. So he has the wherewithal to be really self-reflective in this moment, despite probably at this point being super, super high. And he totally understands the nature of what he's doing and what he's leaving behind by doing this. I'll read a little bit of the...

I mean, this sounds like it's going to be a lot, but this is actually a really small subset of the suicide note itself. So this is a... I'm quoting this exactly. There's good in all of us, and I think I simply love people too much, so much that it makes me feel too fucking sad. The sad, little, sensitive, unappreciated Pisces, Jesus, man, why don't you just enjoy it?

I don't know. I have a goddess of a wife who sweats ambition, empathy, and a daughter who reminds me too much of what I used to be, full of love and joy. And that terrifies me to the point where I can barely function. I can't stand the thought of Francis becoming the miserable, self-destructive death rocker that I've become. I have it good, very good, and I'm grateful. But since the age of seven, I become hateful towards all humans in general, only because it's seems so easy for people to get along that have empathy, only because I love and feel sorry for people too much, I guess. Thank you all from the pit of my burning nauseous stomach for your

letters and concerns during the past years. I'm too much of an erratic, moody baby. I don't have the passion anymore. And so remember, it's better to burn out than to fade out. Peace, love, empathy. Kirk Cobain, Francis and Courtney, I'll be at your altar. Please keep Courtney. Sorry, right please keep going Courtney for Francis for her life which will be so much happy without me I love you I love you I love you I think he could have used some therapy and some other grants for drugs yeah he's depressed he's antidepressants yeah and yeah I wonder I wonder like what would have happened if he like didn't do that like who he'd be right now because I look at like Dave Grohl like they're so different like Dave Grohl and Chris Novelcheck like they were not

junkies at all. Like they never did drugs. Like they did not go down that path. And you look at them now and you're like, they're just like, groovy 50 year old people like doing cool shit feeding to the home. Let's say, I don't know. I don't know what would have happened to Kurt. But, um, well, how did Taylor Hawkins die? He died. Um, he did. So Taylor Hawkins is, was a drummer of the food fighters. He just died. He died last year, about a year ago. And he died of a drug overdose. Really? He died in Columbia while they were on tour, I think, and it says that his toxicology, so that he had opioids,

antidepressants, THC, like a bunch of drugs in a system. Jeez. Something about that lifestyle. So, yeah, I wrote down that line better to burn out than to fade out. I really want to just, if I have the wherewithal, I'm going to scream that for my deathbed. But it's such a good line. so legacy wise look like he basically died rock and roll royalty um he's now part of this 27 club which we all know what that is um i mean look he's on that list with joplin morrison and hendricks

like that's the caliber of person that he he became and amy white house died at 27 too i forgot about that that's crazy yeah corny would go on she'd create more music more movies she never remarried um there's some like she kind of seemed like she kept being like kind of a junkie in a lot of ways but again i'm not going to fault her she's going through a lot of shit and a lot of trauma francis inherited a huge chunk of kurt's estate and now owns the rights to his name and images um yeah she is like she's loaded like Kurt's estate like his likeness is worth so much money i forgot what the exact number was but it was somewhere in like the 400 million dollar range is like what that value of like just having access having the licensing rights to that is what

the aspects are worth. She married a musician that everybody compared to Kurt in 2014. They divorce and now she's basically just living her life doing her thing. She looks exactly like Curt and Courtney's child. It's amazing. She's so pretty. Yeah. No, she looks exactly like both of them. Yeah. But wait, I have a question. You don't think it's weird the way that the gun was and how he could have killed himself? Because I know that's part of the conspiracy is like he would have had to like it was like a rifle under his chin yeah yeah he would have had to pull it with like his thumb or something like or his foot like yeah i've ever heard those um rumors too my my thing is i'm just saying about like from a human nature perspective he's like the biggest thing he's like

the biggest artist biggest like celebrity in the world like if somebody had done that what did we have figured that out like that's fair we have courting actually and also you read the suicide note there's nothing suspicious about the suicide now like i mean people have claimed that maybe that's not his handwriting but it was and yeah definitely states that like i'm doing like it doesn't it's not ambiguous as maybe not a suicide note and also he would have probably died anyways because the heroin overdose yeah i mean he was probably with like whatever he said like the the morphine that was like in his body kind of like permanently he was probably like rehab was probably physically fucking terrible because he probably was like doing a bunch of like withdrawals

draws and stuff you know i can't believe you made three days that's yeah it's terrible um so that's them and like i said i kind of framed this as courtney was the one that kind of got the rough end of this because yeah curse the bigger celebrity and we all loved kurt and then yeah and then people are like mad at her when she was just like trying to keep her family together and then also yeah i'm are like terrible pictures of her like holding francis and crying outside their house and stuff that like like people like wouldn't leave her alone and and all of that so yeah that's awful yeah so that's rock stars man yeah just god like so much heroin like i just wall like i cut out so much of this story because i literally just want to said heroin 500 more times yeah um so yeah

that's why we had coffee so yeah that's fair seattle story But yeah, that's my story. And now I'm going to, once I wrap this up, go look at Tulips at Home Depot. Nice. I want to listen to some Nirvana. At the Airbnb, I'm saying at the fridge plays music. It's like has the whole screen on it. So I'm going to put some Nirvana on it.

It's been playing pit bull. It'll put Nirvana on. Mr. Worldwide. It's 305. I watched, so HBO, if you have HBO Max, they have a great documentary about Nirvana in general, but specifically Curtin Courtney, called the montage of heck which is like a lot of just live footage of recordings of them just hanging out together and i mean it is grungy yeah yeah so it's hard to watch but it's it gives

you really good um insight into like their lives but anyways totally so what a time what a time crazy um shout out to everyone who all those grunge girls who were all black for like a year afterwards seriously it's still hot it's still hot it's still hot I don't, like, I still, I'm still drawn to that, but, um, no, yeah, oh, yeah, what's wrong with that? But they did it specifically because Kirk Cobain died and they were so sad. I was also this one podcast where this guy was talking about, the word they were talking about his death. And they were like, he was like, yeah, I wasn't into his music. I didn't really know.

But then later, I became, when I was like a late teenager, I got into his music. And for one day, I wore a black band around my, like, around my arm. Because I was so, like, distraught over his death. he died like 10 years earlier and everyone was like I don't understand like a firefighter die or like why are you wearing this black band I just remembered that's fair we can still you can still like discover the music and be sad about it yeah you know yeah um do you want to call out do you want to be the one that calls out please rate and review us yeah so thanks everyone for taking through this episode I feel like I that I learned a lot about about rock and relationships. Hopefully my tulip story makes sense in the context of whatever we're building here. But thank you, everyone. Please continue to rate us on Apple

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now too. And we're everywhere on Facebook and Instagram at Doom to Fail pod. And that's our email address. Doomed to fill at Gmail. Very well said. Whatever. Send us message. Sweet. Awesome. Thank you. I will go ahead and wrap up then. Thank you, Taylor. Thanks, Fars.