Doomed to Fail - Ep 18: Bernie Tiede & The Warrens: Demon Hunters?

Episode Date: May 1, 2023

This week Farz gets into the murder of Marjorie Nugent, she seemed awful, but did Bernie Tiede need to kill her? Most people were kind of ok with it. This confusing and possibly more tragic than adorable story,  is portrayed in the 2011 movie Bernie by Richard Linklater, who got way too involved in the real case. Then, buckle up because Taylor 50/50 summoned a demon researching Ed and Lorraine Warren. They inspired the billion-dollar Conjuring Franchise, which Farz is on the fence about but Taylor loves despite some very confusing plot lines (looking at you, Conjuring 3). We ask the hard questions - Does the pseudo-science matter if the outcome is positive? Is Patrick Wilson the most handsome in horror? (that’s rhetorical, it’s obviously yes).Follow us on Instagram & Facebook @ Twitter!  @doomedtofailpodhttps://www.instagram.com/doomedtofailpod/https://www.facebook.com/doomedtofailpodYoutube - https://www.youtube.com/@doomedtofailpodLorraine in 2013 at wondercon via the public domainWarrens via CT post and The TimesBermie via Amazon & Texas Monthly Sources:The Deomonlogisthttps://www.history.com/news/exorcisms-christianity-gospels-moviehttps://www.qualitativecriminology.com/pub/osa148h6/release/2https://www.catholic.org/prayers/prayer.php?p=683 Join our Founders Club on Patreon to get ad-free episodes for life! patreon.com/DoomedtoFailPodWe would love to hear from you! Please follow along! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doomedtofailpod/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/doomedtofailpod  Youtube:  https://www.youtube.com/@doomedtofailpod TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@doomed.to.fail.pod Email: [e-mail] 

In the matter of the people of the state of California, first is Hortonthal James Simpson. Case number B.A.019. And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country. Look what one got me. This is the visual part. Boo! Okay, Taylor's showing me a sign that says on air.

It's like an old tiny. It takes me back to watching Frasier. I used to like to watch Frasier. They look backwards. to you? No. You screenshot it. It's backwards to me. It says on air. There we go. We got it. All right. It's very exciting. Now my lights on and I'm ready. Good, good. The light that only you can see. The light that only I can see. So yeah, we'll go ahead and kick things off. Hi, everyone. Welcome to Doom to Fail. I'm Fars, joined here by Taylor. Hi, Taylor. How are you? Good. Like, trying to figure out where to put my on-air sign. I feel like it needs to be like,

Not on that problem. I'm going to put it on my door, I think. It needs to go outside. It needs to be something that you can like trigger. Taylor just got a lovely on-air sign. One of those old-timey ones that radio people used to have. And it looks great. It looks very professional. Just like us. Like a ringlight. Just like us. We're super professional. Super profesh, as always.

So per usual, we're going to be doing two stories, one historical, one true crime around relationships that were doomed to fail. And we, I think I go first this time. Yeah. Yes. Okay. So why don't we start by you telling us what your drink is, Taylor. I will then segue into my drink and story. Great. Today I'm drinking holy water. Straight from Jesus's breast. Loving nipple. I don't know or holy water, you know, blessed water. Is holy water any water that a pastor?

Yeah, I remember like, I used to, look, there was a Catholic church that my mom had us go to a couple of couple times when I was like a teen and there was like a water fountain and it was like this water fountain has been blessed or like the pipe had been blessed that like went to the little fountain that had the thing so that like covered it so you don't have to bless like all the droplets of water individually and like the bird bath that you put the baby in it feels cheap to do it that way that's all i want every vessel to be blessed as the water comes into it me too absolutely I'm perfectionist, though. You know that about me. So yours is a holy water, which I don't think you're supposed to drink, but what do I know? I can't hurt.

I can't hurt. It's good to be hydrated, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's Jesus water hydrates better than regular water. It's like gatorade. It's got electrolytes. My dream today is prickly pear because we are going to be covering a rather prickly individual in today's true crime story. And it takes place in Texas, which is not the home of prickly pear. I feel like that's more. like a New Mexico or Arizona thing, but you can definitely get some good prickly pear juice in Texas

as well. So just like the juice of a prickly pear? Not like a prickly pear margarita? Just the juice of a prickly pear? It was funny is when I was researching this, I actually looked up prickly pear recipes and I found the margarita one and it looked so good and I was like, write it down and I forgot to write down the recipe for the prickly pear. There's someone here in

Joshua Tree that like I follow on Instagram who has a prickly pear and a store or something and they made a prickly pear margarita and it looked really fun. It looks delicious. It looks incredible. Yeah. It's a lovely color. It's fuchsia.

So just so everybody knows, because y'all might not know. Prithly pear, it's a cactus. But it's a cactus that has that little flower at the very top that's like a very, very bright fuchsia color. And that's the thing that you can open up and drink, which like if you're ever in the desert, you can open a prickly pair and drink that and you'll be fine. Well, you'll still probably die. But that's mostly from the animals that are going to mull your bones. Yeah. Okay. My story, thank you. My story today is about the relationship between a man named Bernie Teed and Marjorie Nugent. Have you heard these names before?

I don't think so. Okay. You will probably remember as I go into this because this is actually a pretty famous case. Bernie was actually famously played by actor Jack Black in the 2011 film by Richard Linklater titled Bernie. do you does that ring a bell no damn okay uh i will say this if you haven't seen it you should it is a amazing movie it is so fun it's fun it's funny it's dark it's witty it's clever it's like it the ambiance of it is just fantastic jack black plays a fantastic character and shirley mclean is kind of like the i don't know the the his other lead in the movie and she's obviously amazing and everything she does as well but the movie itself

and the story that I'm going to go into, both kind of hit the tone of what we essentially classified as dark humor because it is about murder, but it is fun. It's a fun murder. It does say, and this, I feel like, is ties to us. It says the book is based on, it's called Minda and the Garden of East Texas. Yes. Yeah, I'm going to, so it's not a book. It's an article. Got it. And I'm going to reference that article a lot because that was the origination point. So Richard Link later, are you familiar with him, the director? I'm going to say yes. Yes.

Things and confused. Okay. It was funny because the way you phrased, I was like, I'll say yes as long as you don't ask any follow-up questions. I'm looking at it up now. I can answer now that it is that I'm on Wikipedia, but yes. Yeah. No, he's great. He's great.

His movies are fantastic. He's an Austin native. This story takes place in East Texas, which isn't. which isn't terribly far from Austin. And so it got a lot of press coverage in Texas Monthly when it was published. And that was a basis. That article was the basis for everything

we're gonna discuss here, including the movie. So let's get into it. So I'm gonna get into the story here in a minute, but first I just wanna set the tone of how people in the city where this took place felt about the individuals that we're gonna be discussing. And again, the names are Marjorie Nugent. She goes by Marge.

And Bernie Teed goes by Bernie. So here's Marge in the movie. Is that Shirley McLean? Shirley McLean. Yeah. So here are direct quotes from that article you just referenced. One of them says, quote, if I made a list of people I knew were going to heaven, Bernie would be the first on that list, end quote.

I love it. Referencing Marge, quote, if she had held her nose any higher, she would have drowned in a rainstorm, end quote. This is from a city. city councilman named Olin Joffrean, who said, quote, from the day that deep freeze was opened, you haven't been able to find anyone in town saying poor Mrs. Nugent. People here are saying poor Bernie, end quote. Spoil alert, Marge ends up in a deep freeze.

So that's where this quote comes from. So let's get into the story itself. So like I said, so this is a Texas town. It's called Carthage. It's in East Texas. It's very, very close to Louisiana border. It's a very small town. It's completely flat.

You can look up Google images of it. It is just like this small Texas town. It reminds me of the town in Napoleon Dynamite. It reminds me of all the little cities that Anton Chiguerre from No Country from Old Men visited. Yeah. It has that kind of a feel to it. I see. So, you know, it's a very little small Texas town.

Like the people there are just exactly what you would expect is predominantly white. lower middle class, and that's generally like the personality types, these people just go to church. They go to church, they go to local diner, they just live simple lives. I'll put it that way. What's interesting is for some reason that I couldn't totally, totally hone in on. Carthage was just full of these rich one-off individuals where these people made money and oil in Texas and then would relocate to Carthage to die, basically. For some reason, there's a bunch of those there.

That also segues into Marge and her story as well. But getting into Bernie, Bernie himself was a funeral director in Carthage. So he's a portician. I actually hadn't thought about this before I started researching this story. But if you're in a small town and you're a funeral director, it's kind of like a powerful position to have. So it feels kind of like almost like a sheriff or a pastor because at some point, nearly every person in that town is going to have to interface with you in some way. And you're going to have to solve a very, very complicated, emotionally charged situation for them. And so you kind of like get this kind of mightest touch of everybody in town needing to know you and liking you in large part.

And Bernie was exactly that. He was beloved in Carthage, like absolutely beloved. He was a happy guy. Take a look at his pictures. He just seems like somebody who's just constantly smiling. he he does not have a bad days rain does not fall on him when he walks around that's how i see his pictures have you seen his are you looking i'm trying to find him in real life what's his last name in real life teed t i e d e this is a silent portion of the audio medium that we're

using i see oh i mean great casting great job everyone right yeah he's super yeah he's just a super He was a community guy. He always was. He was super involved in his church. He was on on choir, inquire, whatever you say, however you'd phrase that. And he also had a habit of going like above and beyond for his clients. So he had a habit of after the services for weeks and weeks and weeks onward checking in on his clients who are usually old widows or widowers and just making sure they're doing okay, bringing them food and things like that. He was just such a nice guy you know like i don't i'm trying to i i feel like i knew someone like this in high school and a party was always like what what are you hiding why are you trying to be this nice like there's

nothing there's got to be something behind those those gestures um so the article that i referenced for the story there's there's two of them one of them you already referenced there's another article i referenced well that one is called the bizarre story of bernie teed and the real murder case that inspired the movie Bernie by Neil Patmore. Not a very creative title. You could have probably cut that in half, but it is what it is. And in that article, it was said that he was widely regarded as the nicest man in town, Bernie was. So that's one side of this equation. This angelic human who just loves to serve his community and everybody loves to be around. On the other side, you have his former client, Marjorie slash Marge Nugent, who met Bernie

as he took care of her late husband's funeral arrangements. So like I said earlier, Marge's late husband was one of these Uber rich dudes in the oil industry who made a ton of money. Marge was actually originally from Carthage. And so whenever they got into their twilight years, he decided, hey, let's go back to Carthage and settle down there. They bought a huge house, like way too big for two elderly people who can barely walk 10 feet without falling down. It is estimated that his net worth that he bequeathed to March was somewhere in the range of $10 million, give or take. Yeah. I mean, they were like, they bought a bank tailor.

Like, that's the kind of money. They owned the only bank in town. That's kind of money these people had. Yeah. That's money and that's power. Exactly. Influence power, all of it. So contrasting her reputation to Bernie's, her reputation, her reputation, her reputation,

was the meanest woman in Carthage. Oh. So Bernie manages Marge's husband's funeral, and per usual starts following up with Marge. This is part of his routine, just making sure that she's okay, what's going on. And in doing so, he noticed that she has nobody. Like, he'd go to the house and there was just nobody.

It's just this woman sitting alone in this giant house with nothing. or anything had a kid totally estranged literally nobody liked her nobody wanted to be around her yeah that was her that was her general vibe so she was basically sat alone in this house and bernie who by all accounts this incredibly empathetic human being just felt so bad for her and so he made a point to go out of his way to spend time with her he'd go over there he'd hang out he'd go out to dinner together and they started becoming kind of a thing so they didn't go so far as to take like these international trips at this time bernie would have been 39 and she would

have been 81 years old so she wasn't he wasn't in a relationship no by most accounts people assumed he's gay people in carthage assumed he's gay and um and i'm actually going to go to a quote that was like great it was such as most texas quote calling someone gay you'll possibly ever hear but they would start going on these trips together so they were becoming kind of like a thing and The article you quoted earlier is what I'm going to quote here. So that is called Midnight in the Garden of East Texas. That's by a man named Skip Hollinsworth, who did all this research. He did a fantastic job.

He was, he like basically lived in Carthage to like get the story out. He would talk to people, the talent folks, everything. And in one of the diners he was at when people brought up Bernie and the idea of him dating a woman. Somebody said, this is a quote, you can tell he's never been deer hunting in his life. quote end quote like that's the way that he said that they all thought he was gay but nobody cared don't i mean everybody makes texas out to be this like prejudiced place say most people nobody gives a shit texas is beautiful because nobody cares what you do you just do your own thing and nobody bothers you and nobody cared that he was they thought he was gay they were like he's gay he does what

it is he's a nice guy it doesn't matter so at some point uh during this friendship relationship whatever you want to call it Bernie to his credit never said they dated but everybody was like it's weird They're sleeping in the same room and are always together. So who knows what's happening? Bernie quit his job to basically just manage Marja's business account, business, become a business manager, basically. She had all these different interests, right? Like she had the stock portfolios and she owned a bank and she,

all this bills had to be paid. Stuff had to be taken care of. She eventually made Bernie the sole beneficiary to her will and instructed Bernie that upon her death, her family was not to get a dime. of her inheritance and the way wills are done you can't manipulate someone into doing this you there there's there's got to be attestation there's got to be witnesses there's questions around your competency the duress like Bernie didn't force her to do this she just did it on her own win because this is the only person she had in her life this relationship with Bernie and

Marge just like every other relationship Marge seems to have with another human turned abusive Bernie would later state that, quote, she was just so controlling, she felt like she could own me. And I guess to some degree she did. And quote, you see this in the movie. There's a great scene in the movie where there's like an armadillo or a possum in the backyard. And she's like, kill it, kill it. It's going to come in the house. And she gives a gun to Bernie and Bernie just can't bring himself to hurt it. And she's just like bantering him and saying what a wussie is. Like that's probably the exact vibe that this woman had with him. sounds awful yeah yeah so yeah so three years after this arrangement started

bernie would eventually shoot and kill marge at her home in the driveway shooting her in the back with a gun like one of her guns at 22 and he would take her body and wrap it up in sheets put it at the bottom of a deep freeze a freezer and then pour put food on top of it to make it seem like there's something going on when this event took place Bernie had full control of Marja's finances. So he had power of attorney. Not only did he get the inheritance. I mean, he wouldn't get the inheritance now anyways because at this point,

nobody knows she's dead, so there's no will to be executed on. But he had full power of attorney. So you could write checks anyways. You could withdraw money. You could do whatever you wanted with her bank account. So with the knowledge that she's dead and that he now has access to these millions and millions of dollars. Burning starts basically just being a philanthropist. It is estimated that he distributed somewhere around $2 million of margins of money through various different

philanthropic endeavors. He would pay people's college tuitions. He would offer scholarships to people. He would buy two old cars who needed vehicles. He would donate to the church. And like, I love that all there was one story that um i forgot what it was something it was something about i remember there was a there was a trophy store in town so this this town this sorrow just made trophies and one year it was going to shut down because there was not that much business obviously and the team the the the girls team or something it just won some basketball or softball thing and he was like he paid the store to stay open for the next like year so that they would have the time to make trophies for this team because he thought that it was bad that the team

won and they didn't get a trophy but he was just he was just a sweet guy right you're just such a sweet thoughtful guy there was definitely a trophy store in my town growing up yeah yeah I mean I don't recall having one but I never won a trophy so it didn't matter so all the while while this is going on he's telling people that Marge was either sick or that she was out of town on a trip or doing something for nine months. And for those part, nobody cared. Yeah, I don't think no one cared. Yeah, because on the one hand, Bernie's awesome. He was awesome anyways. Now he's awesome because he's awesome just giving everybody money. Second, Marge sucks. So who cares if she's not around? Nobody cared.

Somebody wins, basically. So it is worth noting that amidst all, this stuff that's going on there's also like weird litigation happening amongst marge and her family because the husband divested everybody but marge of his inheritance marge is making claims and has in fact divested everybody of the rest of that inheritance and so all these people are jockeing to understand it's kind of like when and Nicole smith's husband died and then all the entire family just poured in and started suing everybody saying like who's going to get the money who should get what that's basically what happened here yeah so despite the fact that nobody actually gave a shit about marge's well-being or what's going on with her they cared to the extent that she was

part of litigation that had to be addressed as related to the money and the will so her death had obvious financial impacts and so they needed to stay on top of her not because they gave a shit about her well-being because they needed to know what to do next with the litigation so yeah yeah her estranged son rod nugent he lived in amarillo apparently he was successful he was he's a pathologist a doctor he has a family there doing his own thing uh and he obviously given that he's an amarillo and he's totally estranged for his mom has no insight in what bernie's doing in carthage so at the nine month mark nobody no lawyers no family nobody's heard of marge and rod decides to go to carthage like, what's going on? Let's go to the house and figure out what's going on.

So he goes with his daughter to Carthage. They let themselves in. They walk around the house, no sign of life, nothing going on. It's worth noting Bernie had his own house, so he wasn't there. Right. I was going to ask, do you live there? He didn't, okay. He didn't.

Marge bought him a house, like gave him a zero interest loan to buy the house, but then she died, so he just bought the house. Eventually, they would uncover her body in the freezer. And obviously, Rod reported this to the police. the police immediately showed up and the first person they questioned was Barney Dole? For sure, Bernie that did this. So he immediately admitted to killing. I mean, you look at this guy and like he's not like a savage. He's not a guy who's going to like have to get worked over with a good cop, bad cop routine.

He's a soft guy, right? He just totally. So he immediately confessed to killing her. I'm going to go into my usual legal procedure mode here for a minute. There's a pre-trial concept known as change of venue, which just means moving a trial. away from where the events that are subject to that trial took place to ensure a fair trial. Yeah. Like if everyone knows you, you can't.

Right. But, but no, so this is interesting. This is different than what you're perceiving there. Usually the reason to do this is because the defendant could not be afforded a fair trial in that area because it's presumed that everybody would hate them. So for example, Timothy McVeigh wasn't tried in Oklahoma City. Like none of these guys get tried at the place where they do the act. Yeah, you couldn't. He would have been like, well, he died.

anyway, but it would have been faster if I've been in Oklahoma City. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they would have fucking dragged him out of the courthouse and lynched him in the streets. Like, I mean, it would have been terrible. But, well, not terrible. That probably should have been a good thing. It would have been great. Yeah, it would have been awesome.

Yeah, yeah. So in this case, the prosecution, because usually it's so interesting because it's always the defendants that ask for a change of venue because they're the ones who are trying to ensure a fair trial. Yeah. And here, the prosecution asks for the change of venue because they're trying to get a fair drop. And they asked it because they're like, everybody fucking loves Bernie and hates March. So there's no chance that this jury pool is going to convict this guy of this crime. And so that's what they ended up doing.

So it's called jury nullification. It's when the jury basically says, like, we know you did it. We don't care. So it happens. Like every now and then it happens, but it's rare. But in this case, they're like, that's going to happen. So Bernie was ultimately found guilty of first-degree murder, and he was sentenced to life in prison and this happened in 1998 that's when he got sentenced to life in prison

it was obviously not a good experience for bernie he was immediately attacked by his fellow inmates because he's in there for first degree murder you're in there with like cartel guys you're in there with like ms 13 gang members and you see bernie this chubby guy with this beard who like wants to sing in the choir and praise jesus all day like walking in like of course he's a mark of you're going to take advantage of that so he he regardless of his horrible experience at the onset of being in prison he eventually did find his niche he's one of those guys who just fits into he's like water he fits in any container you put him in so he became a a pillar of the prison community essentially so he was regarded as a model prisoner he was part of the prison choir

because of course he was he would teach health classes to inmates and again everybody knew him loved him the guards loved him the inmates loved him he was just as a fantastic guy all around fast forward 13 years to 2011 okay the movie bernie comes out and there's an austin-based lawyer named jody cole who saw the movie and reached out to richard link later to learn more about the case because richard and um the skip skip hollonsworth they they worked on the screenplay together and they were they had a ton of background information on this case she We would learn a detail about Bernie's life that we don't know for sure is true or not, but was corroborated through, like, Bernie never talked about it, but it was corroborated through journals that were found of his, which is he was sexually abused as a child by his uncle. So based on this and based on some of the research that Jody Cole ended up doing on what happens to someone when they're sexually molested in a young age, they, she asserted in an appeal she

filed on behalf of Bernie that because of the sexual abuse and because Marge was abusive to him as well, he basically went into this disassociative state, which basically just means like you're just distant, right? Like you just don't, you're not really all the way present to what's going on. And because of that, that's the cause of this murder. And you can't put all the blame on, on Bernie for it. So the judge did by this and did state that if I, i had known that i probably would not have sentenced him to the extent that i sentenced him at a time and a new trial was set not to determine guilt because he was obviously guilty he confessed to it it was set to determine the sentencing and to re-judge the sentencing

in the interim the judge released bernie on bail on the condition that he lived with richard link later at his austin home which he did what makes no sense yeah they're like like you're under this guy's ward as long as you under this guy's ward will allow you to be released basically that's so weird it's one of those things is i mean richard linklater is kind of like an austin institution the way like willie nelson is right it's like it's like we trust him so that's why you can be released to him so he lived with richard link later uh from 2014 till 2016 so at the resentencing hearing which then took place in 16 marge's son testified about how sweet and loving a mother she was and you know so much of that just like smacks you know like we just

aggrandized the dead you know like yeah yeah when someone's dead's like it's the whole don't speak ill of the dead um but it's like nobody felt that way like you like you didn't feel that way you didn't talk to your mom for nine months totally the lawsuit like so again like the entire family was estranged from her she voluntarily removed her kids from the will and it was clear that like there was not a cohesive thing going on between the family it's not like they were going to be friends no what's funny is during the trial the county commissioner for carthage who knew marge like really really well said marge actually told him specifically quote i'll spend every dime of my money before i leave it to my family she fucking hated her family and these

guys were showing up in courts and like she was a she was a loving mother and she was this and that's like Well, I mean, they want her money and they should, I don't know. It doesn't sound like there's a good reason for them not to have it just that she was a bitch. Well, okay, so here's the thing. In this situation, nobody gets the money. So the way it works. Oh, because it went to Bernie and he's in jail. Yeah, so there's several things going on.

One is what's called the Slayer statutes and the other one is called it's cheating to the state. So a Slayer statute says that you can a person who kills another person cannot become the beneficiary of the person's inheritance. That seems fair. Which means it skips Bernie and goes to the state, which is called it's cheating to the state. So the state ends up getting that money. So none of it ends up going to the family anyways. So that's where that's where that ended up. I'm sure the son sued the state to figure out like how he can get his hands on the money.

But yeah, and I think he should. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's fucking awful. So Marja's sister is a woman named Merrill Rhodes. And she was also at the resentencing hearing for Bernie. she goes quote i was always afraid of her i never forgot that she was my sister i always loved her

as a sister actually even when she did ugly things and she did end quote and then her son whose marge's nephew said the portrayal of her aunt by shirley mclean in the movie was completely accurate and recounted all the abuse she would hurl his way it's like i don't know i don't buy rod's perception like my mom her mom was like a loving woman it's like I don't know. Smells like a duck. Sounds like a duck. You know. Yeah. So I don't know how I feel about this. But like ultimately, Bernie didn't get much better of a sentence. He ended up receiving 99 years. But he became eligible for parole. So he's eligible for parole in about six years from now. So in 2029, he's going to be eligible. At that time, he'll be 71 years old. And we'll see what happens. But it would be like a weird two years out. Yeah. Yeah, you got two years out. Yeah. But it's, it was. It was. It was, you should read that article, I mean, at least read the first half of it because there's a lot of stuff that I didn't put into this that I read in there, which was the diner talk, the diner talk around Carthage, where you have like the sheriff of the city, you have the prosecution who were like, this guy killed an 81 year old woman and all these people are coming up to him in the diner saying, go, he's on Barney. He's a good guy.

And he's just like, what is going, like this is, I mean, you're disassociative state. live like what is happening like why like what the trigger was like what happened they don't know we don't know what the trigger was at least i didn't read i didn't understand what the trigger was presumably it was just like abuse just like yelling and screaming and being a being a total B and him just losing me like whatever i'm just going to kill you i can't take this but what's interesting is like they asked Bernie they're like why didn't she just like get rid of her body because the prosecution did state that if they hadn't found the body they never would have been able to charge him with anything and um and he was like his his quote on this is because everybody deserves a good funeral and

you know i was wondering what his martician is because i feel like as a mortician you'd be really good at hiding a body but also maybe you have like that um yeah like just like that that like loyalty to giving someone a burial the way that you done it for so long that's so interesting because yeah you figure like if anyone would know how to do it right yeah i mean i thought that his move was pretty you got to just stuff in the body in the freezer like then it's not going to rot and you know who goes digging in the bottom of freezers besides rod i know it's it's interesting that they found her in there i feel like but the most part you'd be like oh i don't know yeah because you got to wonder like well they wanted her well they wanted to like deal with it like if she's dead then they can work on her

inheritance do they know that it was going to bernie i don't think they knew that no no the the tool were strange they didn't have any communication and the will and because nobody knew she was dead the will was never executed on so they wouldn't have known that it anything had gone anywhere any of the money had transitioned from one account to the other right so it's a really interesting story the the movies phenomenal like it's not a sad movie it's it's fun i really really really really did like it uh she's awesome and she plays such a mean woman she's so good like she's so freaking good in um still magnolias it's like unbelievable and that was like 30 40 years ago um i know that you're a texas person

but I also just want to say again that people should not have guns you know I just like left and not killed her like what would he have strangled her you think no he's too soft he's too soft for that yeah there was somebody did his sister did bring up like why didn't she just leave and it was something about like she just control it was like she just controls everything because at that point she was everything to him she was his finances like She bought his house.

Like everything was wrapped up in her. Which is like super manipulative. And like that's something that like people who are like that they do is they like make you really dependent on them and then they abuse you. That's what an abuser does. It's like the spouse. You know, they'll be like, you can't leave. You don't have a job.

You don't have any skills. You know, whatever. Yeah. It's interesting because it's actually the exact same story we keep telling ourselves over and over again, except it's reverse. It is always, it's usually older man, younger girl, rich or man, poor girl. in this case it's the exact opposite like super a feminine docile dude against like an old rich lady who's just like super alpha like over the top um yeah and this out ended but yeah your question

about the guns is interesting i guess if you didn't have access to he probably would have just tried to leave her or something i don't know yeah but anyways uh that's that's the story and like Red flag was, I don't know, because I don't know if I feel bad that he killed her, because it feels like she deserves to die. Well, I feel like, I feel like it's a red flag that like, I don't know if those relationships ever work out well, you know, where like someone is like depending on you to like do stuff for them and they're like paying you, but they're like, oh, we're just friends. I'm going to like give you some money. But then like it always turns weird, you know, that you're like, you can't take like a $200,000 interest free loan from a friend and can remain the same level, you know? yeah you'll always have that to hold against you in like whatever way yeah so we said that marge is dead no for sure okay nobody should be dead anyway yeah yeah okay good good that was uh that was very that was that was probably the least gross story i've told and probably i know it wasn't very gross i i will watch this movie jack we i haven't we've been watching him

or they just went to see uh maria brothers and jack black plays uh bowser oh nice I want to see that movie too. Yeah, it's cute. Did you go too? No, they went while I was gone. But they keep playing the Peaches song because Bowser's like in love with Peaches. And he plays a song about peaches and I don't know, they love it. They keep playing it.

Nice. Nice. So in your case, we're drinking holy water. Yeah, just like pretend to like splash it on you and make the sign of the cross. Good. Okay, done. Close. Oh, yeah, right.

That's done. now we've we've blessed ourselves um cool so i will okay i don't know i don't know what i'm doing i thought this was going to be two parts now i think it's only one and i kind of changed what i was talking about in the middle of raiding it last night but i'm just going to do anyway so i started um researching this like a couple weeks ago because i knew that i was going to drive to L.A and have some time in the car and like have some time to listen to books and stuff so i did that and so it's a huge story i have a lot of thoughts but I just wanted to talk about like a little bit of it and then like a history of something in it.

But the story itself kind of takes place in the 1970s. So not super long ago, but like it's still in the past. So I'm going to do some things. I'm going to lay out some facts and you tell me who we're talking about. I'm going to have you guests again. Okay. Okay. So we're going to talk about a couple of things.

This couple of themselves and their history. Talk about folly, adieu, like two people kind of leaving something weird and the history of exorcism. Can you think of a couple? I have another. Oh, my God, the Warrens! Yes, the Warrens! Good job! Good job!

I love that we have the exact same diet of media. Like, we just like, yeah, on par. I was going to, my next hint was going to be some of the best horror movies and the most handsome man in horror, Patrick Wilson. Is that the guy who plays the man Warren? yeah he plays ed warren um okay our friend j our friend j and i like swoon we talk about it he's so handsome to us and he also j godfrey swoons over patrick whatever's name is yeah totally patrick wilson um maybe maybe not swoon but he loves him too um but then i also one time this is not anything to do with this

but patrick wilson also can sing and he played curly from oklahoma on broadway and like that's all the things he's so handsome and i love oklahoma so It's very exciting. So he's the best. So yes, we're talking about Ed and Lorraine Warren. So they are demonologists, mediums, public speakers, exorcists, authors, collectors, and Marcus Marks from last podcast. Yeah, he calls him Christian superheroes. But essentially, I don't, I do not believe them.

I think that they are charlatans, exactly. They're 100% charlatans. Their history is like just being complete deadbeats and then finding a niche. like yeah they just like struck they just struck gold with a niche and it's all lies it's all fucking Aeneville didn't happen like

of course we'll talk about I'm running your story I was going to do next week so we'll talk about all the all the movies later I was going to do that next week but we'll just do it now because it just was like this has been a lot so yes exactly like you said like in Amityville there was a horrible tragedy that we'll talk about they were making stuff up

in the Einfield case in Enfield case in England that was all made up by the girls So the stuff is all definitely made up. But, so I'm reading this story, and here's the following things that happened to me. So I read their book, The Demonologist, and then I bought it because it's kind of fun. So I have it here, The Demonologist, right in Lorraine Warren. Yeah, it's fun. And the guy who reads it, reads it in a Long Island accent, which is also very fun because they're from Connecticut.

So it's like that. So this is, I'll put the picture, but that's what they look like. Not as handsome as Patrick Wilson, IRL. So, okay, so I'm listening to their book. I'm the way home from when Miles and I had dinner with you, and I hit an owl farce. it's not crazy that I hit an owl with my car it's fine I just hit its wing but so I was like whoa listening to this thing about demons I just hit an owl and then my radio a different time went to a weird setting and it was like typing your code and it kept going six six six six six six six by itself and then my arlo is keep telling me there's a person in my backyard and there's no person back there and then my Alexa keeps playing music for no reason so I'm like did I summon a demon? probably not but like miles walks in the background on two miles you're gonna summon the owl haven't you oh my god all right i'll be right down okay okay so anyway all those things happen

i thought they were kind of crazy you know so i was like if you look for a demon they're gonna find demons which is exactly the point you know so the owl thing is kind of freaky though like that's not like a weird like i mean yeah technology glitches but like al's have consistently been a topa of death and you hitting one is weird it flew away but that's so weird I'm never hit an owl before yeah I was like ah I give a car it's a wild one miles was like what is happening also there's a new I wrote am I the algorithm or is the algorithm me because there's a new conjuring series on HBO coming up soon so like I'm just like I don't know did I know that when I said you did this I don't know but that's coming up soon um

I was also in a hotel all week this week. So I was watching The Unexplained on Netflix with William Shatner. There's a couple episodes about demons that are fun. He looks terrible. He looks like he's a dead person telling you the show. He looks super old. But there's an episode where a lady is like, I think that my house is haunted. It came with all this furniture.

This chair right here. The guy died in it and they found him a week later. I was like, bring that chair away. Yeah. Why was you one thing in your house? Yeah. So anyway, it's fun if you ever want to watch that. So Ed Warren was a demonologist, which is essentially like he studied demons.

He says he's the only person allowed to perform exorcisms or recognize for them outside of the Catholic Church. I'll talk about more of that in a second. So their story is in the, it's, you know, in the 1970s, 60s, but I want to talk about exorcism like as a historical thing in different religions as well. So another thing for the, that's fun. So the book demonologist is fun. Some stuff that Ed clarifies. And the book is written by them and another writer who like wrote it. You know what I mean?

It's like sometimes it's in his voice. But for the record, many times exorcisms, like they're not ghosts. They are demons. So you're not talking about a ghost, talking about a demon. But he's saying that ghosts do exist because of things that are like, this kind of makes sense. But he's like, of course you see ghosts of Victorian women in houses. because that's when like the oldest houses that we have were built and women died in them all the

fucking time like having babies and stuff so like of course if you have if you bring her newborn baby into an old Victorian house there's a really good chance that there is a woman who died in childbirth there that's going to come and try to look at your baby in the middle of the night and I'm like I feel like that makes sense what do you think about that how do you feel about ghosts so I do think that when I was when we were working in the billmore that I that I saw a woman. I do remember that. And I just convinced myself that I didn't, you know?

But I was like, but I know I did. Yeah. You know, it's the last place, the Black Dahlia was seen alive? The Biltmore, lobby hotel or the lobby bar. Yeah. Yeah. No, I was playing in that back unfinished part of the Biltmore. And I was playing Pong with somebody else.

And they whacked the ball past me. And I tried to like spin to get it. And as I spun, I saw a woman standing behind me in all white. And then I got, I like finished the spin and I turned back around and there was somebody there. Okay. Well, I am obviously like not religious and I'm saying there's no demons, but like I believe you.

Fuck, that scares me. But I mean, to be fair, I was, I also vividly remember being like six years old and my mom asked me to get something from her room and seeing Skeletor there, like Skeletor standing in her room. Yeah, does your mom have a Skeletor poster? No, it was like a real Skeletor and I saw it with my eyes and was like, and then I looked back on like, I was probably playing with a Skeletor doll and then just imagined it, you know? So I don't know.

Well, so yes. So that's actually, that's the thing. So Ed Warren is like, I don't believe in like a literal flaming hell, but he doesn't believe in like the dichotomy of good and evil and like light and dark and like one thing or the other and like that there are other things happening in like different planes so it feels it sounds like something that like I could maybe get on board with is the idea of like a spectral plane time has no meaning different dimensions something collected of unconscious like in your head like there's a lot more going on and like our brains than we know which like I think could account

for some of that yeah yeah I can mind that yeah um so anyway that's just I'm scared a little bit. Like I, I feel like I see ghosts at my house sometimes. They're like corner of the eye ghosts. It kind of like, like swish past. You know what I mean? Like someone there, you're like, no, it wasn't. So, um, but we're not talking ghosts. We're talking like actual demons, like agents of the Satan himself. Every once in a while, like Satan will show up on these stories like as like a physical thing. And so for exorcisms themselves, I'm sure that like everything else, it happened for all time because mental illness has happened for all of time you know what i mean so like if someone is like schizophrenic there was schizophrenic people

in the middle ages and of course you're going to be like this person is possessed by something because you don't understand right now really you know so for good measure i looked up a couple things just like give myself some background and like figure it out um you can go to catholic got dot com and get the words for the right of exorcism so they actually have like all the words that you need to read to perform an exorcism and it does say this is a fun part so I'm going to read this part of the of the prayer yields therefore yields not to my own person but to the minister of christ for it is the power of christ that compels you who brought you low by his cross tremble before that mighty arm that broke asunder the dark prison walls and led souls forth to light so that has like power of christ compels you which is the funest part that's what he else is actually in the exercise right isn't there um I also wanted to look up also like this is talking about Catholics I can't not bring up that since 1940, 4,392 U.S.-based Catholic priests have been accused of molestation, which is 4% of them. So, like, and also Protestants in the past 20 years, they've identified 380 sexual

abusers, and there's a headline that Southern Baptists are like due to be in a lot of trouble. I just wanted to bring that up to. I'm talking about the church. No, that's surprisingly. Yeah. So in other religions, in Buddhism, there is the practice of reciting or listening to the parita. So that is reciting certain verses. scriptures in order to ward off misfortune or danger. So that's kind of like an exorcism. Eastern Orthodox religions, they distinguish demonic possession from mental illness. And the way that they do that is by seeing if the person reacts negatively to holy relics. So if you're like having

visions, they'll like throw holy water at you. And if you're like, you know, I'm wet, then they're like he's maybe having like an episode. But if you're like, it burns, they're like demon. Make sense? Yeah, it feels like a movie. But yeah. Yeah. Mormon sometimes do it. In Hindu traditions, people can be possessed by behoots or preface. So the relentless and often relignant beings kind of like ghosts that can like possess people. So that's what people, that's what Hindus believe. It's in Islam. It's in Judaism. It's in Taoism. Interesting. Sikhs do not believe in demons. They're like, no. So there's no like Sikh right of exorcism because they're like that they don't exist. So no. Yeah. So in that, okay, so in that hypothetical, could anybody, be possessed could i be if if you're muslim can be possessed by like the catholic devil i don't know i think that you're muslim the devil the the demon is must is Muslim okay i'm trying to prove poke holes in the possession thing by saying well then how many Sikhs have ever been possessed by anything but if you don't believe it then you probably can't be possessed by it

oh my god we just went zoolander and that reminds me he goes how many abidiginals do you see modeling yeah um so anyway so i i also wrote find me on my sidecast exorcism dot dot what i'll be doing those episodes soon sweet yeah i'm into it have you ever heard the the theory that exorcisms do work for mental illness because it's a placebo effect of like if you think you are possessed then you think that the remedy is the exorcism and it solves the problem yeah i kind of think i kind of think that that might be what the warrants were doing i'll talk about that actually have that written in the notes later but yes exactly like i think maybe if you think that your house is possessed by a demon and you need to move on if you have these two whackadoodles

come into your house sprinkle holy water everywhere like do all these things and they say like this house is clean and they leave you're going to be like well fuck this house is clean you're found solved exactly so like i don't know that's nice by all accounts they're nice people They're like trying to do the right thing. So maybe that was like kind of a part of it to you that like people feel better after we do this. So we're doing it. You know? Right.

Right. So anyway, we're talking Catholic exorcisms. In the timeline is in AD 70. The gospel of Mark was written and that's where he first writes that Jesus casts out evil spirits. There's some stuff in the Bible, a lot of animals and other people are being possessed by demons. So it's there in the Bible. And like I said before, like this is probably something that was in like every religion before this as well. In 1526, in 1526, Martin Luther adds exorcism to the baptismal rights.

So we know, like, Martin Luther started a lot of things. And we talked about this before because we were talking about the Protestant Reformation. We were talking about Henry the 8th. And so like Anne Boleyn died 10 years after this because that's when he got like the idea to separate from Catholicism and all of that. But in a sense, and I hadn't really thought about this, but a baptism to like a baby is an exorcism. That's what they're doing. is an exorcism. Yes. It's like a light baby exorcism. You pray over them. You bring the holy water. Their parents are there. Afterwards, you have to change clothes. It's just, it's like a little tiny exorcism. You're like getting all of the badness from being born with sin out of the baby. And then it can like go and make its own mistakes. Sweet. Yeah. So that's what it is. Catholics have been really into it for a while. Protestants are okay with it, but they don't love it. They did it as more of like a community festival and not like tied to one person and probably more of, like performance art of like religion and then in the renaissance and then when shakespeare was

around there's an exorcism in king lear and one in 12th night and then you get to the puritans and so we talked about them a little bit before in the past two they came over to america they're spooky they believe in witches and they hate fun so they kind of believe in like that being possessed but they don't do exorcisms per se but they do like try to kill the person who possessed the person like we saw on like the witch trials yeah So then a bunch of bad stuff happened was in America, and then first just dropped something. He didn't, yeah. And then we're in the 1900s.

And so what happens in the 1900s is Pentecostalism becomes a big thing. People start being born again, speaking in tongues, and like doing creepy weird stuff. Like, like that. And from history.com's article I read, they said, quote, Pentecostalism's high energy worship services and the lure of the possibility of receiving supernatural gifts from the Holy Spirit caused the movement to attract new members that continue to grow throughout the first half of the 20th century. So they're like, we can like get powers from God now. You know, Jesus can like actually literally heal us and like literally do these things. So people kind of sort of believe in like weirder things.

And then in the 1960s, Catholic started to think about exorcism a little bit more. and they're like starting to like do them a little bit and then the exorcist the book comes out in 1971 so the same thing happened with when like there were exorcisms in 12th night in shakespeare that happened when the exorcist came out is that people started to like need them more because they saw it culturally you know yeah makes sense you've seen the exorcist obviously oh my god I've seen it so many times I think they're remaking it actually are they I hope it's good have you read it no no I want to the movie um have you seen Exorcist. It's Exorcist 3 was George C. Scott with a nurse. It's like the scariest, like, seen in all movies. Yeah. Yeah. All of them. I've seen all of them. They're all fun. So one thing, and I says a little bit about some of the conjuring movies and like what they're titled as well. Like I took me until reading it to realize that like it's about the man. It's not about the demon. It's not about the girl. It's about the priest. The exorcist is the priest who does an exorcism.

And it's about him and, like, his journey and then, like, 50-year-old, spoiler alert, he dies. Yeah, yeah. I just, like, didn't. I didn't think it was about him until I was, like, reading it. And I was like, oh, it's about his story. Now the story of, like, Pizzou. See, it ties into all these things. I'm talking Pazuzu.

We're talking to the Puritans. We're talking Henry the 8th. All of it. That's right. Pazuzu was the demon that got Regan or Reagan, whatever name was. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So now it's, like, out. Like, it's in the 70s, people are thinking about it a lot. Like, they're scared. My mom and my dad and my uncle went to see it in the theaters. I remember my mom was like unimpressed. My dad and my uncle were like, this is the scariest movie I've ever seen. Yeah, my mom and dad talked a lot about The Exorcist as one of their favorite movies. It was like the first time that went saw a horror movie because they're not horror people.

But it sounds like the Exorc was really like a cultural phenomenon. It wasn't like a genre specific thing. Like everybody had to see The Exorcist. Yeah. So that's awesome. Yeah, super fun. So okay, now let's talk about Ed and Lorraine Warren. So Edward Warren Minney was born in 1926 and Lorraine Rita Warren was born in

1927. They grew up very close to each other in Connecticut. So they lived in a small town near each other. They got married in 1945 and their daughter Judy was born in 1946. So like you said, they're kind of like bumbling around. Like Ed was a bus driver for a little bit. Lorraine was like a homemaker. They're trying to figure out what they wanted to do next. And Ed was also a painter. So if we think about the Conjuring movies, Patrick Wilson is always painting. And I feel like we've talked about this before, like, where you want to, like, you need to set up some sort of like deal with your spouse or like you believe them. So like one knife, I remember like Juan, it was raining teeth in the house.

He's going to be like, great, let's move. You know, like he's going to like believe me and move on. But if I'm like, if I'm like, Juan, I had a dream about this like terrifying nun and I just drew this picture of this demon in my dream, he'll get me personal help. You know, like, it's not normal. in the movie like in several of the movies lorraine will like wake up and he'll be like painting this like terrifying thing you're like please don't do that in the house but also just don't have a demon room don't have a room where you contain all the demons because things are going to happen

they absolutely have that yeah and like i don't believe it but also like don't do that don't test it because that doll that doll's a real doll that doll's um in on on key west i think right Like, that's a, I forgot where the name of the doll was, but it's actually in the house. We'll talk about Annabel. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I'll talk about that story. But yeah, no, it's, it's like real, real. Yeah.

So, what they decide to do is they're also kind of interested in, like, the, like, the occult and all of that. Lorraine has a sick sense doing little quote things. So she's, like, kind of psychic, can kind of, like, do things. She can, like, sense presences. She sees oras, you know, all the things that Lorraine can do. and so they do a thing where they find in the paper cases of haunted houses to people who think that their house is haunted and they go and they stand outside their house and they paint their house and then they go and they talk to the person about the hauntings and then they sell the painting later

to be like this is a painting we did of a real haunted house and we went and talked to the couple and here's what happened to them so that's how they kind of like wiggle their way into people's haunted houses haunted houses and started to like think about that as a thing but how did they get the idea they were just like we are he wanted to paint and she was thinking about like all of her like being kind of psychic and six sense stuff and she they thought they could channel it into haunted houses okay they're not being word of that but that's what that's what I got from their book yeah fair enough yeah so the conjuring movies definitely show them being like super super in love and like that's like a backstory and they were like married forever and they were definitely

married until he died. And then I also found an article in the Hollywood Reporter that there's a woman who sued the Conjuring movies because of that because she says that he, she was 15 years old and she moved in with them and she stayed with them for 40 years and she was like a second wife

and lived with them. Yeah, I don't believe it. He looks like a man who has secrets. Yeah, so he made him a secret. But they ended up through their paintings and through like going around and talking to people in haunted houses, doing these things where they would like do many exorcisms and they would like, you know, tell people there's a

demon in their house and they would like cleanse the house and they would get the clergy involved when they needed to get the clergy involved. So they're sort of like a first step into someone who could like really help people. And like you said before, like they're really nice, they're really sweet. They like really genuinely seem like they want to help people whether or not like they do, they're doing like a real thing or not. They traveled all around the country. They did tons of public lectures. So they were like really out in in the field all the time. You could just like call their house and they would like answer the phone and come and help you and they collected like you said tape recordings haunted artifacts they

had that occult museum in their house unfortunately it's now closed after they both passed but it was you know you can see it in the movies and it's kind of just like that it's like a room with like a bunch of the creepy shit that they say it's tied to all these cases and then they have like a priest come bless the room and they keep everything like in certain places Annabel and I will talk about this when I talk about Annabelle, but Annabelle is a raggedy and doll, which is so much scarier than anything in the whole entire world. I thought it was a monkey. No, Annabelle's a raggedy and doll. There is a monkey. There's a monkey and conjuring one. Okay, okay. Right. No. They've been well, I thought, hold on. But it isn't like the thing. Annabelle herself is a raggedy and doll.

And I don't know if you've never seen a raggedy end doll, but they're fucking creepy. And have you ever seen the Omen? Yes. The original one. It's also a raggedy and doll, like in a grave that movie and somehow and I'm like fuck we're getting and dolls are so scary that is terrifying absolutely not I don't know whatever my mom had a really scary doll in her in her room and she can't find it it's been lost for like a couple years I was like mom I was like it went back to hell like it is out of our lives I have a friend a friend who I've known since high school and I used to go to her parents house every now and then to hang out and they had this section of the house underneath the staircase where the mom had put like a wagon and

in the wagon there was a bunch of pillows on top of the pillows there was this porcelain doll making face because i'm real mad that was that was so scary like i still remember it i mean i saw this thing like 23 years ago for the first time and i still remember it was dead eyes black dead eyes just scaring at you and i'm right i asked her about it like years and years and years later i was like what was up with that dog's like my mom just loved it my mom just loved this doll and that's That's why it was always in the house. It was so creepy. We have one person, one.

And I was like, is this worth anything? I'll get up. And it was like, no. And I'm like, I don't want to throw it away because my friend because my friend's going to come back. But I also like, don't love it. Yeah, it will come back. That's how it usually happens.

Definitely not now when I have all this, like, energy around me from all these demons. So just a little bit left before I talk about the movies for a second. So did they really believe themselves or like, was it a folly audio situation where like two people believe in something that's like so over the top, but they just, like, really, really, really believe in it? Or was it like, you know, do they believe it because the other person believes it? Do they believe it? Or do they not? Do they believe it enough that, like, it helps people anyway?

Like you were saying, like, you have someone come in and say that you're fine and you, like, feel fine? One thing that they do that they did in, like, one of the religions that I mentioned before, I think it was the Eastern Orthodox, where they, like, use a lot of physical objects. So they have the physical objects in their museum. They use crosses. They use the holy water. So they're like, like, real things against people. who are, you know, you know, potentially possessed. And the thing in the, in the conjuring movies

that I really liked is I felt like that was one of the first times that they portrayed, but like I saw like a ghost or a demon in a movie that felt like a real physical form. And it, I feel like that was intentional. Because like, you know, the conjuring when like there's like those arms that come out of the wardrobe and clap. And then there's like that like demon on top of the wardrobe. Like, that's good the shit out of me. And I felt like, because it wasn't like ethereal ghost. It was like, this is an actual thing that can hurt you, you know? And so, like, I think for Ed and Lorraine, like, they were really helpful to people because they were like, it's not you. You have something hurting you.

You have a physical thing that is hurting you. And that's what we can help you get rid of, you know? Yeah. Yeah. How people, like, move past it. But it's also criticism, especially because they're like, all of our work is like really, really scientific. And then people are like, but you based it all on God, so it can't be. So that's actually the thing that, like, I will be a contrarian and say I really don't love the conjuring movies.

you don't i love them you're going because it's um the matter-factness of the way they discuss or present their opinions and thoughts is so cringe to me that's exactly what they were like exactly that that they definitely get right because they're like god is real demons are real this is real like they're acting like they're giving thesis statements at harvard and it's like you're a bunch of like you're you're pulling stuff out of nothing there's no science at all in this like yes yes exactly exactly and so we had some and there was a 1997 interview in the connecticut post and the new england skeptical society which sounds fun they said they found the couple to be pleasant but their claim of demons and ghosts was quote at best as tellers of

meaningless ghost stories and at worst dangerous frauds so like it's like a little bit of both but yeah you can't be like they say everything like it's fact really isn't like a wiggle room for what the stuff that they're saying yeah we'll assume that what they did help people right but how many people did it also inspire to have these thoughts of like this is what's happening to me too yeah they didn't get help that help yeah like was it happening anyway like there was that german exorcism like annelisa woman um during that time too and she just had epilepsy you know like there's like there's like cases of people in like latin america and south america dying because they live in small towns as an adequate medical care so they'll call in

someone's doing an exorcism and you're like that person really needed to go get a hospital yeah you know they didn't need you to do all these things with them that ultimately like leads to their death because there's so much of the stuff going on right yeah so they but they were very successful in their life they went around the country they toured they wrote books they were like 10 books they ad died in 2006 and Lorraine died in 2019 so she kept the museum alive until she died and then it went to her daughter and her son-in-law and now was closed but I don't know like why that happens but but yeah they just like live this really weird life going around helping people and like the really seriously there are demons way that you make sense yeah sorry i was trying to find a thing because i heard that they sold the rights no it wasn't them it wasn't them it was the lutz's

the lutses sold the rights to their story for 300,000 dollars was like man that was a bargain so okay so let's talk about the movies and so some of the movies that they're like involved in like one i didn't write down is like in poltergeist which is also fantastic the the woman is supposed to be based off of lorraine if she's like an older woman who's like a psychic you know you know but the amnadeville story so in real life the house in amnadeeval long island the son of the defaio family killed everybody in the middle of the night he said a demon made him do it he probably was just you know, schizophrenic having an episode, something else. He killed his whole family, and then the Lutz's bought the house.

They were married. Lutz was the stepdad to the kids. It ruined the kids' lives. I watched a movie, a documentary of their son, and their son's like, my life is fucking ruined because of this. Because he's like, what I believe. Like, my parents were telling me there were ghosts here, but, like, there weren't really, but everybody knew who he was after that.

And it was just, like, pretty awful how that happened to him? So is it widely now accepted that, nothing in that movie was, or the story was accurate? I think so. I mean, I've heard that people overheard that the Lutz and the Warrens laughing about how much money they were going to make, you know? So it's like one of the other things. Like, no one has, like, a ton of movies that are great. I watched one about this, like, haunted lamp that, like, Patty Duke was in it.

It was, like, really good. It was like Amniudovil. There was an Amniudel dollhouse movie that I watched from the 70s that was, like, kind of made for TV movie. But, like, they're great. And it's super fun and really scary. you know when like lutz falls into that closet full of blood is that the original because i don't remember that from the remake yeah yeah no i thought that so by contrast to conjuring movies i love the amityville movies like i thought those were

fantastic because it was it didn't it didn't it didn't go into this whole science aspect of like possession and stuff it was just a fun scary movie i still think it's scary that that whole scene of them catch them the the guy who would torture Native Americans and bury them in that crawl space like you remember that from the remake no yeah there was yeah Ryan Reynolds found a room in the basement that led to this torture chamber underneath the house as where this guy this European guy would torture Native Americans it was just fantastic and also by the way it's worth noting that I don't totally totally by that Ron Defeo did that on his own because everybody was found on their

stomachs. He shot them with like a 45. He shot them with like the loudest gun possible. And they were saying like maybe his sister helped him and then he goes her. Did you hear that? Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah.

I heard, I heard that like they were like romantically involved. Oh yeah. Yeah. And I also heard that like his dad was like actually a legitimate mobster. Maybe, like, there was something going on with that. But I don't know. I don't know. The story itself is really creepy.

I will say that Taylor, knowing me as well as she knows me, when I got my house in Austin, she sent me a house-forming gift, and it's the sign that hangs outside of the Lutz's house on the night that Ron killed his entire family, and it just says, high hopes on it. And I put it up in my house, and people come over and they're like, why is this, like, 38-year-old man, like, have decorations that, like, a 70-year-old woman in Carthage would have. you know it's like no no no no this is cool it's not weird it's not like a live laugh love exactly it's a live laugh love it's a murder thing it's it's way cooler it is really cool i got on i see yeah and like i did also like in one of the documentaries with like the kid that grew up and was really like

haunted like literally haunted by the whole thing he they were like yeah there was a red room in the basement because we just like had red paints he painted like a room red and you're like okay well people are going to be mad about that but that's but that's at annieville the house goes up for sale every couple years but like no one no one's been seen anything there since for the annabels would you would would you sleep in that house i wouldn't i would not sleep in that house five people were shot to death every room i don't know there's a body in every room in that house like that's yeah i'd definitely not sleep in like the attic rooms have like the eye windows you know like that's a hard now for me yeah yeah but i go there but i'd be scared you know i'd be scared yeah so the annabel story is about

a doll that raggedy ann doll and um the movie in the movie in the beginning of the conjuring movie they do the animal story the way that like it really happened which is these two nursing students got this doll and they were like then it started like weird stuff started to happen like it was always moving around the house and it's hard to like leave little notes on paper that they didn't have with a pen they didn't have that would like miss me i'm like right on wall which is so scary and then they tried to throw her away and she came back and all these things and they were like a little girl named annabel died here and we like let her into the doll but it wasn't a ghost it was actually a demon and like it scratched to a boyfriend and all this like super fun stuff

there's a lot of animal movies that go back to like annabel creation and like they're fun but that's not like the real story of annabel right right so the conjuring the first one that i really like in that story the family had actually been in the house for like 13 years before they started having problems and another thing where I didn't think about the title just like in the exorcist like they don't really talk about in the conjuring movie they're like oh a woman who was like

related to the ghosts and oh no maybe this is a different one but like a woman killed her child here and like started to like make everybody kill their children and like that's what had happened but like in real life one of the daughters tried to summon a demon and that's what a conjuring is so like

I don't know like I took that word for granted but like they a conjuring is like conjuring a demon so the girl was like into it so her parents bought her a book and one of the things that Edel Lorraine are like is like there's always books on the occult you gotta be careful because if you read one and you do it the wrong way you're gonna let something like really scary into your house

you know so that's what happened in that story and in that story in the book the Warren's book and what they say like really happened was that when it was over they left and they were like just so you know this isn't like totally gone but it's like mostly gone and they're like what do you mean and then something took

is what they say so they took Lorraine's glasses off of her face threw him on the ground and they were like just don't piss it off again which is hilarious um i know there's a nun movie too as well with them um because he did have those like nun dreams and he was a painter but there's like more to that story that i don't know a ton about but the last one um oh okay conjuring two is about the endfield poltergeist in england and they were like barely there they were like there for a day they weren't really involved in that story at all the other people from like the the society in england that went and stayed and really researched it were there for like almost two years it lived with the stanley for almost two years but it's like

it was obviously the kids it was just the girls you know missing about yeah and then conjuring three makes it no fucking sense i've seen it like three times i have no idea what's going on like there is a story where the warrens went to help with someone who had said that he was possessed by a demon when he killed his landlord but is that the devil made me do it yeah okay so like that case is real then there's also this like whole part where i get super lost where like they find a cave and there's like this like really tall woman who's like the daughter of this old man and she does a thing and like just i still don't know what happened and i've seen it a lot yeah yeah i never that's why i didn't watch again like i just fell out of love with the conjuring movies i was just like uh also i also find

that woman who's the one who becomes possessed really fucking annoying and I don't like watching her. Rebecca Taylor in The Conjuring One? Yeah, I think that's probably her name. That's fair. That's fair. Yeah. Yeah, that one I really like,

because it has some of the things that are like so scary to me that like the having your sheets ripped off of you in the middle of the night. You know, like stuff like that you're like, oh my God, I would like lose my mind if that was something that had happened to me. You know, so because it's like the real tangible stuff that they show in that movie that I felt was like new as far as like ghost stories and like hauntings went. because it wasn't like there's a murder in my house it was like there's this like physical being in my house that's haunting me and like yeah i think that's super scary and like super that's why i think that's why i think that's why i'll definitely watch the conjuring tv show but i still think maybe like the real edin lorraine warren aren't what i want to continue to learn about but i still want to watch i'm watching patrick wilson and like insidious and all the movies that he's in because he's so handsome insidious that was a good one man there was a there was a time period there when like all those movies hit at once.

And they're so good. Sinister. Do you remember Sinister? There's like an article and it's like, what are those scariest movies of all time and Sinister is number one? Just because like the couple of things that happen, people's heart rates like went out of control. Like just like out of control.

That was me. That was one of the few movies I watched where I regretted watching it afterwards. It was that in Babadook and Lights Out. Those were the three movies where after I watched it, like, I really don't want this to live my head anymore. What's light down? So that's the one where there's this ghost who. Jesus fucking Christ.

Yeah. Yeah. It's this spirit that only shows up when the lights are turned off. So imagine you watch that movie and then it's bedtime. You're like, this is, okay. I don't even want to, I don't even want to have this screenshot up on my computer ever again. No, that's real scary. Yeah.

Blah. yeah well um yeah that's it exorcism you know isn't real because demons aren't real but it's interesting that like every culture has it and that people still do it and there's times when you're like oh they've been more during this time or less during this time in history and I think that's because of like what's going on in the world like have we heard about exorcisms recently is it like being written down in popular culture so like you might think you have to have it are you like unable or unwilling to understand pieces of mental illness you know like Yeah.

Is that something or like physical illness where you're like, why is this person acting this way? Because like like also we've talked about like lobotomies and like one little jiggle in your brain and you're a different person, you know? So like one little like weird thing happening in your head, like you could potentially completely change. And that can be really scary for people around you, you know. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking about the Michael Taylor possession case where he turned into a deal. but it was because they, like, believed it. Exactly. Like, he ripped his wife's tongue out and then clawed her eyes out and killed her.

Like, he acted like that, but it was because it was like, no, no, no, dude, you have a demon in you. Like, you're actually possessed. And it's like, well, if you tell someone enough shit, he's going to soak into their psyche eventually. Yeah, like what, yeah, exactly. Like, what does your brain create, you know? So we're like, I don't know, I feel like art might take away from that. is be careful about, you know, things that seem super crazy. But if, but also, like, do it makes you feel good?

Like, if you can fix yourself with the placebo, I guess you shouldn't, you don't know that. But if you do, you could, you know, like, I feel like, that's okay. I'm a no on demons, but I'm a yes on probably on ghosts, but I don't know what it means. Okay, so you say that, Taylor, you say that. But here's where, like, the rubber meets the road. If I found a book and I found all the little accrued, months that I would need to summon a demon, but I was like, Taylor, I want to do this, but I'll only do it with you and I'll only do it at your house. Would you let me do it?

No, I don't think so. There you go. Okay. Because I wouldn't either. As much as I mock religion in spirituality, I still don't want that in my life. Oh, totally. Well, there's like, I thought I forgot there was a Ouija board as well. So I'm like, I don't want to do that either. Yeah, exactly. exactly so okay so we we don't believe but we don't want to test either yeah i'm not going to rock the boat i'm going to say you to my room after this and we'll be fine yeah yeah creepy creepy yeah but they're fun i mean i think it's like the two of them were just like so i guess it's also maybe there's a red flag of like working with your spouse and like spending so much time together that you like start to really validate each other like with anybody like if you're

and you're just yassing each other forever you know like things can get weird yeah they're good for them they found their niche you know yeah they probably them alone and there were probably added like multiples of billions of dollars in movies and books and oh yeah there's a number absolutely yeah yeah so which ones which ones do we which ones do we attribute amityville insidious the conjuring one two three which to your point that one's called the the devil made me do it, which is an actual case where they legitimately tried to prove that the devil exists legally, which is crazy. The Enfield, poltergeist, poltergeist itself, right?

Annabelle. Annabelle. There was a like a 1990, something, the nun, mm-hmm. There was a TV movie in the 90s called The Haunted. I've never seen that. Oh, The Haunted in Connecticut as well. Okay. As them.

Yeah, that's what I have it. Definitely do it. Annabelle, Enneville, Conjuring, Haunting, Connecticut. There was also that made for TV movie The Haunted that I've never seen that I want to. There was something they did at West Point. That was fun. That could definitely be a movie. I mean, I think you could keep going.

Yeah, because, I mean, every one of those little trinkets that they stored in that room, which was a ton of stuff, would probably spend off into its own movie. Yeah, why not? They always, like, zoom into that room in, like, the end of the movie is when it's like, that's where you take the dancing monkey doll and that's where you see like another like little thing that makes noise or like you know a clock and like a necklace and you're like oh my god but none freaked me out the nun was one that actually did freak me out i did i did a visual when we were watching the nun in our scary movie club but um i think the nun looks like prince william and that lightens it for me well you kind of ruined it for me then i have i have a screenshot i'll send it too because i have pictures on side by side and i'm like this goes back in the same Same, same. It is scary. Nuns are scary.

But also, okay, oh, my God, I know we need to go. But, like, you know how you're like, of course there's Victorian ghosts in an old Victorian house because women died there. But I feel like, of course there's nuns haunting places because, like, where are they going to go? Yeah. Yeah, their family abandoned them. And they're celibate and they have nobody. Oh, wait, I have one more thing. There was a story in the book, I'm so sorry, where he's like, there was a ghost of a mom who died in a car accident and she had like six kids and she was haunting the house because she didn't know she was dead.

And so they did an exorcism to like get rid of have her go move on to the next level and Ed Warren was like that might seem kind of cruel because she could live with his house with her family like as a ghost but what happens when the family dies and what happens like the next generation. And in 200 years she's going to like what haunt this house forever. And I was like that's going to cool. Yeah, it's good point. Yeah. Okay. Now I'm done. Good for them. We need to go back down or rabbit hole. So one thing to note for people we're listening is that every October, Taylor, our friend Jay, myself. and a whole list of other folks do this thing we call calendar of horror where jay for the most part organizes this intricate spreadsheet of movies or horror movies where you can watch them or rent them or whatever and every night we have a shared slide channel that we discuss we watch the movie and discuss it ever since i move to texas it's been harder for me and i don't know how we're going to do it this year now that jays on east coast time and you're on pacific on central it's almost impossible now but we'll we'll do we can but i mean it probably won't be like an every night thing

like it had been maybe it'll be like a once a week thing but yeah i can't do it until like late anyway because i have the kids all the things but figured out but it's so fun and we've watched so many scary movies and it's the best we watched um deep bluesy last night i mean one that's not a horror movie but it's fun it's fun i like it awesome thanks for us that was fun thank you taylor i i i gotta want to see a horror movie now so thankful for the for the warrants for that i you know what i i they touched my life they actually touch my life because my fascination with horror movies all be rooted back to movies like Amityville.

Yeah. Awesome. When you've seen that when you're little and you're like, oh. It's still scary. It's still scary. Like, again, I probably won't ever watch Sinister again because that movie really, really... Actually, I think that's totally fair. Like, that's one that you don't watch again. I can think of it right now and think of all the

terrible things and be like, oh my God. Yeah. Do you know a lawnmower scene? I know. I started thinking about. Or the deck chairs, it's like it pulled in the pool. Oh, my God. They made a part two, and the part two is actually still pretty good. It's nothing for the first one. Yeah. But Ethan Hawk?

Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, follow us for more horror movie recommendations. And all the things. On social, like, subscribe, give us five stars. Give us feedback, comment, commentary, all that good stuff. Thank you. Tell your friends. And we'll do it again next week. We'll do it again next week. Thank you, Taylor. Thank you.