Doomed to Fail - Ep 186: Flying the Skies above India & Breaking Barriers - Sarla Thukral

Episode Date: April 1, 2025

Today, we close out Women's History month with the story of Sarla Thakral - who received her pilot's license in 1936 and was one of the first women pilots in India. Today, the average number of women pilots in India is double the global average! We'll learn about the support Sarla got from her husband, his tragic death, and her second act as an accomplished fashion designer!  https://vivchavan.wordpress.com/2007/10/17/indias-first-women-in-air-indias-first-lady-pilot-sarla-thakral/ Join our Founders Club on Patreon to get ad-free episodes for life! patreon.com/DoomedtoFailPodWe would love to hear from you! Please follow along! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doomedtofailpod/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/doomedtofailpod  Youtube:  https://www.youtube.com/@doomedtofailpod TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@doomed.to.fail.pod Email: [e-mail] 

It's a matter of the people of the state of California versus Hortonthal James Simpson, case number B.A.019. And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country. Start again. Hi, Taylor. We're recording. How are you? Good.

How are you? I'm good. I'm good. Nobody will know that we had to cut the first 30 seconds out because we are professionals. Yep. sounds good how are you how have you been good i'm you went to dallas again i went to dallas did a quick dallas run saturday came back sunday so you know when i do those it feels like sunday it's not really a weekend because you're like constantly driving um so i mean luckily

today's been relatively chill so that's good um but yeah springs in full bloom the wildflowers were out so it's really lovely here in austin which is nice so how are things on your end um pretty good I'm on spring break, so that is very, very nice. I am in, like, near the beach in California by a place where we can, like, walk to a beach. It's not, like, warm. It's kind of, like, foggy, you know, like, the Pacific, but it's very nice. No, she's not. Yes, I am.

She's not. Stop it. No, she's not. We're here because it's Miles' birthday. He's going to be eight on Friday. I like how Miles is the fact checker here. Very cool. Very cool.

Who goes first today? I think I do when I have a short one Cool Far away All right cool Oh wait Hello Welcome to Dune to Fail

We bring you History's most notorious Disasters and Failures And interesting stories Twice a week I am Taylor joined by Fars Yes I'm also here

And I never remember this part As our listeners know Yeah we figured it out I guess we could like No We could have a record intro but that feels weird kind of like it as part of the banter anyway i have one more for women's history month even though we're oh shoot we're late so this is not going to happen in march whatever

we missed a day but anyway i'm here i have one more for women's history month it'll be a short one but it's interesting and it also brings out some other things that i think we should learn more about as well because i was like what can i learn about a woman that's like not from America, you know, most of the ones we do are like, or Europe. And so I wanted to do like a non-Western story this time. Sorry, I had to kick everybody out of the room. No worries. So I'm going to go over to India and talk about the Amelia Earhart of India, but she lived to be old. Her name is Sarla the Kral. I do, I've never heard of that. Yeah. So it's pretty cool. It's like there's not a ton of information, but the stuff that I got is really fun. And then there's a

couple other things that, like, I don't know a ton about the history of India, especially when India in 1947 was divided into India and Pakistan. Obviously, like, that's a conflict-ridden story and continues to be. So that's something I want to learn about more later in the future. But for now, Sarla Thakral was born on August 8, 1914 in Delhi, in British India. So, like I said, India stopped being like a British colony in 1947. So, So when she was born, it was still being ruled by Britain. So a little bit about the history of flying. And I just read maybe a couple years ago,

I read the David McCullough book on The Wright Brothers. And it's super interesting, obviously. Like, it's really wild how they went from like nothing to the oldest brother, Orville. I think maybe, yeah, the older brother, he lived to see the bombs dropped on Japan. so crazy you know and like that's just wild so um 1914 when sarla was born is only 15 years after the right brothers did their first test flights at kitty hawk and north carolina which is why north carolina gets to say first in flight on their license plates oh no well they deserve it they didn't live there they lived i think they lived in like ohio but they needed a place where they could have like a long stretch of beach to be able to do it and obviously that was not in the midwest so they they like rented some land in north carolina and so they did a lot of other tests. There are a bunch of other people that also were like figuring out how to fly at the same time like there always is. But I do want to do the Wright brothers someday. The story is really good. But all but to say when Sala was born, flying is brand new. A couple other things that I

thought just like that were interesting enough to mention in the history of flight is the right brothers also had a very smart sister named Catherine, who was probably very, very involved. like more involved than history has given her credit for in the stuff that they did my um one of my friends and i we wanted to we made like this stupid plot idea for a tv show i think i'm like i maybe said this to you before called the right stuff about the right brothers trying to go on dates and i kind of love that and in the show they would be like kind of like bumbling and katherine in the background would be inventing an airplane you know um so if anybody wants that idea i think it'd be really fun you can have it for free

Yeah. Just credit me for it. Also, so right before Sarla is born in 1912, when I was just like skimming the history of flight this morning, in 1912, the U.S. Army was skeptical about planes at all because they, quote, had a tendency to nosedive, which made me laugh. I was like, oh, yeah, no, that definitely sounds like not a good thing. I don't know I need to do that. But flying is new. And, God, flying is so freaking new at all, you know? I would not have gone on a plane back then.

I mean, I don't even know. It's hard to get on a plane right now. It's true. But anyway, we are in India, and there are a few women who are getting their pilots licenses. There is Irmila Parki, and she is the first woman of Indian nationality to get a license in 1932. And then Silla and Roruba Tata, they're sisters of, they're part of a famous family, like the Tata family that is like a, it sounds like they're just like a really interesting. Indian family that I didn't get into, but they also got, what do you mean? They're from the Tata family?

Yeah, what is that? It's like the biggest industrial family like in the world. They're like, they own everything. Well, then yes. Two of the sisters of the Tata family got their flying licenses in the 1930s as well, but they're of British nationality. And Sarlah, who we're talking about is the first woman of Indian nationality to get her pilot's license.

So when Sarla was 16 years old, she married a man named P.D. Sharma and moved to the Lahore region of India, which is going to be a part of Pakistan when they divide to be with him. And being married young was obviously super common and she was expected to stay home and take care of her family. That was just like the expectations of women in her time and of her age. And any education after marriage was almost impossible. It just wasn't something. that that was done. But P.D. Sharma and his family were full of people who were very, very encouraging. All of his family were pilots. There were nine pilots in his family, and he noticed her interest in it, and her husband and her father-in-law signed her up for the Lahore Flying Club and got her to learn how to fly, which is super cool because it's an extremely patriarchal time to be alive and the society is extremely patriarchal, and they really encouraged her to learn how to fly. So she started to fly with her husband. He had a postal route from Karachi to Lahore. He was the first Indian person to have an airmail license. It's about a 1,000 mile route

that goes between those two cities. And again, like, it reminds me when we're learning about Amelia Air, how like being an airmail person in the United States was like the most dangerous job you could have. Sure. I would believe that. Yeah. When Sala was 21, she got her license also and flew solo. So she had only like eight hours of training before she went up by herself, which is like probably not something you could do anymore. But she was like, no, I got it after eight hours. She's like, cool, cool, cool, I got it. Her plane was a gypsy moth, which is a two-seat touring and training aircraft. So it looks like just like you would expect. It's just, Just like a, you know, one of those little planes were like there's double wings.

Yeah, yeah. Like you kind of want to get out on the wing and like do a trick. I mean, I would ever do that. But like people do that. You know what I mean? Very risky people. I think that actually, I think that's what wing walking was is you just balance yourself between those two wings. I hate it.

Yeah. Not for us. It's a hard. No, no, not for us. We've ruled that out. So she, there's the one pick of her as a pilot you can find online. She's standing in her of her plane, and it's so cool because she's wearing a sari. And so she's just like, you know, wearing very, like her traditional Indian woman's outfit,

but she has her, like, little leather cap on and her goggles, and she's, you know, a pilot. So she did her, um, her 1,000 hours of flight time at the Lahore Club. And she earned her aviation A license, which is a private pilot license in 1936. So she was, um, you know, she was young. She had a four-year-old daughter. It was really cool that she was. she was able to go up there. One of the newspapers at the time said, quote,

the skies are no longer exclusive to men. So like how important it was that she was up there. And this, I thought, was super interesting. This continues. And I don't know, you know, why exactly. But according to the Directorate General for Civil Aviation, there are 1,622 commercial pilot certified in India. and 18% of them are women,

which is 292 of that number. That is twice the global average. So India has the most women commercial pilots of any country, and they always have, had a lot more than others. But is the population of India heavily weighted towards female versus men? I don't think so. Well, then I have no answers. That's all I got.

Yeah, which is interesting. So Sala also wants to be a commercial pilot. She wants to get her B license and do that, and she begins training. unfortunately her husband dies in the plane crash which is a bummer in 1939 but you would think put you off on flying but i guess yeah well so then she is like okay well i need to make a living and she gets a tries to go to um more training so she joins the joddpur flying club to train for her license but it's 1930 not 1940 by now and world war two is starting and so they're like

we're not training anyone who is not going to be a part of the war. And she was not going to be a part of the war because she was a woman. That was like a hard no. So she had to pivot and do something else. So remember that that was 1940 when she was like about to get her commercial license, but then didn't. So, oh, this is the reference I wanted to tell you for reference. The first woman in India to get commercial pilots' pilots license wouldn't be until

1947. So seven years after the war, they started doing it again. By that time, Sarla had pivoted to another career. So also, so this is where we do the pivot, like her second, her second thing at life, which I always made to me laugh because when I was in my like 20s, somehow I got subscribed to a magazine called Moore and it was all about women's second acts. Like what do you do after like your kids are grown and what like second job can you have, you know? And it was just hilarious.

I was like, who sent this to me? I'm 25, you know? It's like I have definitely not completed a first. act i don't know what you're talking about but she but sarla decided to pivot something else and she became an artist which also i'm sorry this is the obscure thing but have you seen the royal tenenbaum sorry no okay it's one of my favorite movies ever and in it the mom etheline tenenbaum she becomes an archaeologist and that's all they say it's just like etheline became an archaeologist and then she's like on a dig site and it just makes you laugh so hard every time i love it and like like it's easy you know

Yeah. Well, I mean, again, going back to my theory, it was probably easier back then. Yeah, if you're, because there's no regulations, I think. Right. Right. So in the 1940s, she returned to Lahore and enrolled in the Mayo School of Art. And she trained in painting and earned a diploma in fine arts. So remember, like I said, it was really difficult for women to even get an education, especially later in life. And so she was able to do that. She designed costume jewelry and saris and a bunch of block printing.

so Sala was a Hindu and when India was granted independence in the great partition is when India and Pakistan separated and so she was not no longer welcome in the Pakistan part because of her religion and they there were things that like her neighbors would be warned her if people were coming because people were trying to kick her out of the country because of her religion and so she ended up fleeing on to train with her daughter, leaving behind most of the stuff that she owned and the business that she had started, you know, designing clothes and designing jewelry in Pakistan and went back to India. She worked on her fashion business for 15 years and, like, very famous people in India wore her stuff. One of them is Vahya Lakshmi Pandit, who was a diplomat. Do you know what? I was singing about the Jonas Brothers' wife who's an actress. And then you know, never mind. Never mind.

This is great. I'm going to stop interjecting. No, this is like the 50s. So, like, she was the sister of the prime minister of India. So just like people were in there, you know, like, wearing her designs. And she was like a very famous fashion designer, which is so cool because I feel like a fashion designer and her pilot are both occupations that you want to have when you're like a little girl.

Yeah. You know. Very cool. And remember also Amelia Earhart was a fashion designer too. Yeah. She designed like some of those cute things. So in 1948, Sarlah married a man named R. P. Thakral. That's where she, the last name we know her by, which is also really interesting. So there's like another barrier that she broke because usually in the Hindu religion, it discourages remarriage. The idea being like, you know, you get married for eternity. So you can't marry someone else on, you know, this, this human plane. But she followed a offshoot, a reform offshoot of Hinduism called Arya Samjaz, which allowed her to remarry. So she was able to remarry and kind of lived happily ever after with her second husband.

In her 80s, she said, I have a couple of fun quotes for her. She said, quote, every morning I wake up and chart out my plans. If there is plenty of work, I feel very happy. Otherwise, I feel a precious day has been wasted. And, like, good for her, because I feel like I waste a lot of days. Amen to that. I look forward to the days I can waste. I know, for real.

I'm like, today I was like, I'm going to do nothing. Cool. Carlisle died at the age of 93 in 2008. In one of her last interviews, she said, quote, always be happy. This one motto has seen me tied over the crises in my life, which is very nice. So I just, that's really it,

but I just thought it was a fun little thing and stuff that I don't know a lot about Indian history. And it's so cool that as a woman, she was able to do that, considering the year and the culture and all of the, you know different things are happening there like you know world war two into the independence into all those things so yeah i mean let's also not forget that india has a caste system that i covered at one point where like there's people who are like dirty untouchable like they're not

that progressive no definitely definitely yeah um so obviously she was probably from some yeah i mean we heard it she's from some higher echelons but um yeah very very interesting you know uh there's a so much of those world history things where we think we're the center of it in the U.S. And there's other places that have other things that are similar. Yeah, I think that's exactly

the point that I was trying to get to. Like, you know, there's someone, there's a first of all sorts of things. And it's not like, just because Amelia Earhart did it, you know, and there's women in America

doesn't mean like, that opens door for women everywhere and vice versa for all sorts of things. So someone's got to be the first to do it in all these places. And it's cool when someone says, you know what, I'm going to do this thing that isn't just

difficult for me because of my like, you know, gender or whatever. It's like actually a hard thing. That's like potentially very dangerous, you know. Very brave considering, you know, all the things. Speed and which, Taylor, did you listen to

The Daily from this weekend? No. Okay, they were covering how mental health and airline pilots kind of come together and how they're so disincentivized from ever bringing up their mental health issues.

As a result, you end up with, like, potentially pilots who actually have issues, but they can never talk about it because if they talk about it, they get grounded. They don't get paid. They don't have a job. They lose their careers. It was actually really terrifying. That is terrifying. That's a terrible catch 22 to be in for everyone.

Yeah. Yeah, which I'm actually going to touch on quite a bit around mental health stuff in my episode. So stay tuned to learn more about that if you are interested in the topic, which you will be because it's fun. I make it fun. great um yeah no that that's it just a short little one to to to tie up our women's history month um thank everybody you listen to those episodes and i will kind of put them all together in our march newsletter and share that for everyone too lovely um is there any letters notes comments from folks that we want to talk about no but i wanted to tell you something

oh okay i'm in i'm in i'm on vacation like i mentioned and driving home i just saw a car that had a bumper sticker that said Buttigieg Cheney, 2028. Which was when I was like, oh gosh. I can't. I was like, well, I hadn't thought of that. So great. Yeah. It's funny.

I think I mentioned this. I mentioned this like a while ago. And then I just heard it again on one of Bill Maher's episodes where it was like, there's a point when you go so far left that you end up right yes and look i think we're on that timeline i was like oh god i think we're we're getting there um what a time what a time to be alive what a time to be alive yeah that's so yeah that's it um thank you morgan for being our first patreon member we appreciate you and no thank you to far as in mind's partners for not joining our patreon yet we're not naming names but they know who they are in relationships with but they know who

they are they know what they're doing wrong so just calling that out just FYI no pressure if you want to do it our patreon you can find us a page uh patreon.com slash dune to fail pod but also everywhere doomed to fail pod please you know send us your ideas next week I have a really fun one you know I'm also in this like really weird thing is happening where like I don't know. Hopefully people are just reading a lot because every book that I want from the library is not available. So I'm on like a wait list for like 15 topics. I know they're all going to come the same day and I'm going to be like great. I can't read 15 books. Can you also rent the ebooks from the library? Oh, that's what I mean. I'm in line to rent the audiobooks. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. There's like a certain like the number of licenses. Yeah, exactly. So it's like it says like about this number of weeks. But then that's always just a guess because some people could be like all very. it I read it in a day or it takes me a long time or whatever. So we'll see.

But I'm kind of doing them as they come in by read a really fun book last week for next week's episode. So I'm excited to get into that one. I'm also going to be referencing a book in mine. So lots in common. No, I didn't read it. But I've listened to probably 25 hours of the authors talking about it on podcast to where I've internalized it to the point where I think I have read it.

So yes, I've read it. Funny. That is way more than the actual book. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, literally I'm just searching out this author and finding all their content and consuming it. All right. Well, let's go over there and do that. We'll go over there and do that. We'll go in and cut this off.