Doomed to Fail - Ep 21 - Part 1: Taylor's Favorite Murder - Hinterkaifeck

Episode Date: April 29, 2024

Let's go way back to Taylor's Favorite Murder - the family murders at Hinterkaifeck. In the quiet expanse of Bavarian countryside, a small farmstead became the setting for one of the most perplexing unsolved mysteries in German history. Join us this week as we delve into the chilling events of the Hinterkaifeck murders. Who could commit such heinous crimes, and why remain shrouded by the shadows of the past? We'll explore the eerie preludes, the gruesome discovery, and the tangled theories that continue to haunt the legacy of Hinterkaifeck. Join our Founders Club on Patreon to get ad-free episodes for life! patreon.com/DoomedtoFailPodWe would love to hear from you! Please follow along! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doomedtofailpod/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/doomedtofailpod  Youtube:  https://www.youtube.com/@doomedtofailpod TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@doomed.to.fail.pod Email: [e-mail] 

Hi friends, Taylor from Doom to Fail. I am re-releasing today the story of my personal favorite murder, the Hendrik Hafeck murders. This is a story of a family in a farmhouse in Germany, and they weren't seen for a couple days, and when people went to look for them, they found them all chopped up in the barn. It is a mystery to this day. I think I have my thoughts on who did it, but there's a lot of options and a lot of people who it could have been and they had secrets and all the things that make it my favorite murder so i hope you enjoy thanks in a matter of the people of the state of california versus orthal james simpson case number b a zero nine so my fellow america ask not what happened with the cubs the teaball team yes we did great they win today we don't keep score so no

But, no, they did great. A lot of them hit the ball. I pitched to them. A lot of them hit it. One girl freaking scream cries the entire time. So she screamed cried the whole time. But, you know, other than that, I think it was fine. They had fun.

The kids had fun. Yeah. Great. The kids had fun. They had a good time. And then Florence had a game after her. And she did really well. She got a hit.

I think they tied. So it was good. Yeah. And now we're home. It's a disaster. One's in New York. What's you doing in New York? Visiting friends.

Nice. just doing like a dude trip yeah that's fun yeah and then what are you gonna do you're gonna put the kids down and bust out the wine or what's the game plan i hope so we are painting so i'm painting like i took everything out of my closet and i'm painting the whole inside of my closet and should we go cameras off because your parents internet is terrible i'm sorry i can't even i can't tell everything's slow um hopefully that's better okay let's try that yeah so we yeah we are painting like a hallway and the doors in the whole inside of the closet. So it's like a lot of work, but it's good.

Everything's a mess because I take everything out of the closets. Nice. We're having a good time. We're going to go get sushi after this. We're going to get like one sushi roll and then like a bunch of edamom and some rice. That's how we do sushi. Joshua Tree sushi. It's good.

So here's the thing. All sushi has to be frozen before it gets to the restaurant in the United States anyway. Okay. So proximity to an ocean doesn't actually. impact anything. It does not. No. Okay. All right. Well, there you go. Yeah. Learned someone you every day. I didn't go. I didn't go until I learned that. But once I did learn that, I was like, oh. Okay. So I'm not crazy. Like this was a share sentiment. Okay. Good. Yeah. Yeah. Cool. Well, should we kick things off? Yeah. Well, welcome to doom to fail,

the podcast where we discussed two relationships that were red flaggy and doom to fail, one historic, one true crime. far as joined here by taylor hi taylor and we okay so hold on i think i know this time this time you go first i do got it for a change okay so we'll go ahead and discuss our drinks i guess i'm going to go first so this is going to be a bit of flashback to last week because it's also going to include ginnis and it's also going to include sambuca so it's sambuca poured into a pine glass followed by super, super slow pour of Guinness down the side, like it trickles down the side, so that the Sambuca floats on the Guinness

at the end of all this. There's a name for it. It's real. It's real. There's a name for it, but if I told you the name, you would know what I'm doing. So I'm not going to tell you the name. I'll tell you the name when I get to my story, okay? Okay, that's exciting. I like Sambuca. I like a, I like like an appertif.

Hey, I remember vaguely. you know i remember vaguely a thing where don't you like light sambuca and then do a helicopter thing and then shoot it is that a thing i don't know what's a helicopter thing because you let yeah like you light the sambuca on fire then you put your hand on top of the fire on top of the shot glass and then that extinguished to the fire and then the glass adheres to you because of the vacuum it creates your hand so you can lift the whole thing up on the palm of your hand and then you're supposed to like wave it around your head to show that it's like really adhering and then you take it off and shoot it i think you do a lot of research

before you try that make sure that's real for you get that a shot yeah yeah that sounds very dangerous i might have to edit that out i we cannot take all my ability right now i don't i don't i don't yeah i don't yeah i don't yeah yeah fair enough well we'll do some research we can get back to you on this amazing amazing well i can't i okay well next time we're together let's definitely figure how to do that oh yeah how do we do that we think a ginnis tap okay we'll figure it out cool that sounds weirdly delicious and semi-dangerous okay so i go first and i'm going to do an old tiny story and i'm drinking bex the german beer because have you seen beer fest oh my god i love beer fest so remember when they're like trying to

and named German beers and they're like, und, und, und, und Bex. Do you remember that for her? Yes, yes. I think about that all the time. So that's why, if I'm like, what's a German beer? I'm like, und, unbex. So it's so hard to find.

So I can't wait. So that's, we're in Germany. My, my favorite part of that movie was when the Indian guy, when they're done drinking that first night, he wakes up and he's, he's cuddling a dead deer, just like covered in blood.

Yes. So good. Not again. So, yeah. Yeah, he did. Oh, it's so good. I love how that one guy dies and then his twin comes and you forget that he's dead. I know.

Incredible. Landfill. Oh, my God. It's so good. Oh, my gosh. They did. So they're so hit or a mess. A Broken Lizard.

That troop. Like, we watched the Tacoma FD show where they're like in the fire department is great. We watch that. But then like they have a new one called Quasi about Quasimoto. And it's like so bad. I barely watched it. It was a struggle. I think our taste also changes a little bit.

I guess, but I feel like there. I didn't like slam and salmon, but I like Club Dred and I like puddle cruiser. Anyway, anyway, and I saw them live and it wasn't very good. And that was like 15 years ago. Super trooper, super trooper. Yeah. How incredible. Super trooper, Super 2 is another one that's better than the first one.

Okay. Anyway, Rick and a Bex. Also, oh, I'll do a little more. another throwback to beer fest in a minute so it's so i was thinking last week it was super cute that you think the black dahlia is out of scope because we have no scope so you could definitely have done that if you had wanted to you can definitely do it in the future and i also think it's cute that you think she was found under the hollywood sign because she was not so i just wanted to make that clear that like i knew that you were wrong i didn't say anything he said anybody else also

knew you were wrong wait she was well it was on the it was in the mountains though or whatever you no it was in a park about 30 minutes away no it was like in the city oh my god okay it was not in mountains i'm so sorry listeners yeah people were screaming the cars across america and to the world if i caused any road rage accidents please forgive me so okay so that reminds so i'll say that for you you can do do the back dahlia later if you want to i do think there's something about a redhead cop in there that she may have her had a relationship with that you could explore so i think that could be in this But that reminded me of my favorite murder, which is the Hinter-Kyfeck murders. Have you heard of those?

Oh. And you said, Bex, is, oh, my God, this is the creepy one, right? This is a super scary. It's super scary, which is why it's my favorite. Yeah. Let's do it. Love it. Okay, awesome.

So it has, and there are some relationships in it, some, like, pretty bad ones. So I think they all kind of attributed to what happened. So the sound bites are what make it so fascinating. Like I'll go a little bit more into detail in like later. But first, let me just tell you the creepy part. So on April 4th, 1922, after a few days of no one seeing the owners of Hintr Kaifek, which is a farm, a neighbor went over to investigate. In the barn, he found four bodies stacked in the hay.

They were the bodies of Andreas Gruber, 63. His wife, Cecilia Gruber, 72. their daughter, Victoria Gabriel, 35, and her daughter, Cazilia Gabriel, 7. They had been lured and attacked one by one. They'd be killed by a pickaxe, so like a big axe like a flat side and a pointy side, and in the head. Little Cazilia, the seven-year-old girl, when they found her body, a lot of her hair had been pulled out.

So the police think that she was laying there, dying for several hours, pulling out her hair like in agony and confused. So I'm not going to be. Inside the house were the bodies of the maid Maria Baumgardner, she was 44, and the baby Joseph, who was two. They had been dead since March 31st, so for about five days. It had taken a while for the town to notice because the fire was on and the animals were fed. Someone was living in the farm. So it looked like someone was living there. Like the animals weren't crying. They were well fed. The dogs weren't barking. They were taken care of. The, you know, the fires were on. So that people thought someone was there. So someone had been living there like with, with, the dead bodies for several days after. So creepy. Prior to, it's so creepy. Prior to the murders, the former maid, so it was actually Maria Baumgartner's first day, which is like the worst first day of work ever is the day you get murdered on the job. But it was her first day, poor thing. The former maid had quit because she had heard footsteps in the attic. And she thought that the house was haunted. So she was

like, I'm out of here. So also like, Andrea's, the dad is a jerk so that could have contributed it as well but she said that she heard noises in the attic and it scared her enough that she left Andreas the dad he also told people in town that he saw footprints in the snow going into one of the barns where the door had been broken but none leaving so oh yeah yeah that's part of remember yeah you know so everything i read was like dramatically different facts about this so i just like picked my favorite because like i don't know but one thing did say that there were two sets of footprints in the snow, which would like change who we think might think it might be, but there was definitely one set of footprints in the snow leading towards one of the buildings, but none leading out. So that's scary. Yeah, yeah. Actually, so Taylor, like it reminds me of, so there was, we had one of those in the U.S. too, if you remember, like it was a, it was this family that went into this cabin. I'd want to say it was somewhere in California, and there was like separate cabins and all, Everybody was dead.

It was like, nobody knows how it happened. And there was like footprints. And it was the exact same story, except like in the U.S. Whatever. I'm sidetracking your story, but like, it is freaky. It's so scary. It's so scary. Andreas had also told people in town that he found a newspaper from Munich on its property.

Munich is about 40 miles away from Hintr-Kythek. And he didn't subscribe to this newspaper. Nobody in town had brought one in. So there was like a newspaper that he could not. identify that he found in his property. So that was weird. You know? Yeah. After the murders, cigarettes were found in the attic, as well as the attic had like a trap door, a false floor with like a little compartment in it. And that's eventually where the murder weapon was found. It was like they found the bloody axe in the attic underneath the floorboard.

So whoever it was, definitely went back up to the attic and hit it in there. So like, that's a scary story. Someone living in my attic is like the scariest fucking thing I can possibly think of. it's like parasite yeah oh my god it's so freaking scary like i feel like there's been like dozens of like lifetime movies and stories of just like you know someone's like watching you through the vents or you know just like having someone up there and also like funny that like it must it's like it's like 1922 so it must have been so smoky that you wouldn't notice someone smoking in your attic you just kind of let it go but but yeah it's so scary like the footprints are so scary the idea that like they killed the baby you know they lived in the house with the dead bodies like

they cleaned up after themselves they took care of it like they were living there you know and then they left taylor have you seen um have you seen the open house on netflix is it with jennifer yes yes i think so that's this this story look in the basement or something yeah yeah like so we was like living there and nobody knew i mean that was fictional it's It's scary that it's real, but whatever, same story and concepts. It's so scary. I think I've also seen things in, like, New York City where, like, somebody had someone living in, like, his crawl space, like, in his apartment, and she would, like, come out

at night and, like, pee in the sink. So wild. It's so wild. Okay. So that's, like, the gist of it. That's why it's so fascinating to me. I think the whole thing is, like, so scary. But I want to go a little bit more into detail.

So I went to Wikipedia, of course. There's a hintrycifect.net. I watched an episode of lore. So lore, it's a podcast, and they have two seasons of show on Amazon where they, like, act out of the stories. I think they're all really different because they're all different stories. But in the one about Hinderkeye effect, the dad, Andreas, is played by the grandpapa from Beer Fest. Oh, nice. It's the best.

I love when he goes, what is it, Grandpapa? That guy also played Arnold Schwarzenegger and Arnold Schwarzenegger made for a TV movie. Oh, that totally makes sense. Right. He was in, like, a bunch of, like, he was in the original Dune. Like, he's, like, a very famous actor. Like, I'm giving him no justice. But, yeah, yeah.

Like, I'm like, oh, the grandpa from Beerfest, but you know what I mean. He's in this lore. Another, another, the woman who played the maid in that episode of lore is in dark. Do you ever watch Dark? It was also really good in German. It's, like, really creepy and good. So, anyway, some good German actors. I listened to a podcast, The Midnight Train.

But I also read the book, The Man from the Train, which will come in later. So I read that a long time ago, but it kind of ties. back to this. So I'm going to kind of go through it again, but a little bit more in detail. So Hinder-Ka-Fa-Fek was a farm behind the town of Kaifek in Germany. Hinder-Ka-Fee-Ki-Fek. It was 43 miles north of Munich. It was built around 1863. It had several buildings. It wasn't just like the house. There was a main house which had a basement for like food storage and then that attic. A stable, a barn, a machine house, a bakery slash laundry, a coach house and a well. So it's also a time when, like, there's no indoor plumbing. So, like, your, you know, your,

your kitchen is usually separate from the house. And, you know, your, you know, laundry is separate from the house. And it was a farm where, like, people could buy, like, milk from them. They could probably buy, like, meat from them. And they had, like, vegetables and stuff. So, like, a farming compound. On the lore show, they do a really good job of showing you. It's, like, it feels isolated and it's really fucking cold. It's, like, snowing, you know, like, everyone's freezing. They just have candles and, like, shawls. So really cold and really, it. felt very isolated, but it wasn't like super isolated. You could walk to town. There were some neighbors that were like pretty close. And it also was right by the train tracks. So you could also

always hear the train going by. The Gruber family lived on the farm. So that's Andreas, Casilia, Victoria and then the two children. One source said that like Victoria was the owner of the farm, the 35 year old with her husband. But I don't, I don't know where that came from. It could have been that Andreas owned the farm from his first wife's family because he was a widower and then married Casilia. She was like 10 years older than him. So that could be how we got it. But there's like a bunch of different stories about how they may have gotten it. Also just for the record, Victoria, the daughter, she was married to a man named Carl Gabriel. He died in World War I in France and his body was never found. He is the father of Casilia, the seven year old. So the undisputable

fact of the story is that Andreas was awful. He was like a bully and a jerk. He was awful to was family, the people in town didn't like him, he was abusive. And one thing to note is Joseph, the two-year-old boy was not the son of Victoria's husband, the one who died in the war. His parentage is in question. So in 1915, Andreas and Victoria, his daughter, were convicted of having an incestuous relationship between 1907 and 1910. Like, it went to court. I don't know how that works exactly, but he got a year in prison and she got a month in prison for that. So, like, he definitely had raped his daughter you know definitely abused her for a long time it was like 10 years before this but he definitely did it how do you go why is it rape the punishment why is this incest

right that's a good point it wasn't like they were accused of having an incestuous relationship which feels like that makes it sound like she was cool with it there's no way she was cool with it you know seems like yeah yeah um yeah good point he should be charged with like raping a family member but there's also another person I think that Joseph might have been Joseph's father the neighbor Lawrence Schlittembauer he was married to someone else but he was having an affair with Victoria like everybody knew that they were having an affair so he could have been Joseph's dad as well so it could have been like either of those they don't really know who his parent who his father was but other than that terrible thing is a business as usual

at the farm the family kind of goes in and out of town people see them all the time they get the mail there you have coffee delivery on the way there's someone coming to fix the tractor so there's no indication that like anything bad is going to happen i can also mention you know the the former maid quit the house was haunted the new maid maria barn gardener came with her sister on march 31st 1922 her sister stayed for a little bit and then left her sister there and she was the last person to see the family alive in the middle of the night somebody lured the family one by one into the barn and murder them so i think okay okay sorry can you pause there real quick is that really what people think happened yes so here they did a couple they did some tests

like what can you hear from the house from the barn can you hear someone screaming from and you couldn't that they didn't think that happened but in the lore show which i think kind of may might make sense it's like the dad went out first to like milk the cow or whatever and then the person killed him dropped his body in the barn And then, like, let the cow out, you know? So everybody else would be like, oh, shit, the cow's out. What the fuck is he doing? And then go and, like, bring the cow back.

And they end up in the barn, you know? It just sounds very much like people walking down the basement steps in a horror movie. Well, yeah, but also, like, what reference, like, what would make them, I guess maybe because they were afraid that the house was haunted or whatever or, like, someone was there. But, like, I don't know how, like, how actually scared they were. of like something weird happening, but I also feel like you're so freaking tired. You worked on your farm all day. You know, you have to like get to bed. It's like late.

So it's snowing and like it's cold and you're just like, oh, the barn doors open again, damn it. And you go out there and check it and then you like see a dead body and all of a sudden you're killed too, you know. I don't think it'd be like that hard. I guess. I guess that's true. You know, and it would make sense that the maid didn't go out because she wouldn't know to do that because it was her first day and the baby obviously is a baby. so huge suit inside. Right.

I don't know. I think that I think that checks out to me. I don't know. No one knows. They left the body is stacked like cordwood. It always says stack like cordwood, which I'd only hear in this. They just have them stacked like wood.

They were stacked. And under some hay. The murderer then went back into the house, killed Maria. Again, it was her first freaking day. And then he killed the baby, which is terrible. He could kill the baby in its little crib.

And then they stayed for a few days. They fed the animals, made food, cleaned up. People weren't too worried because they saw the smoke. Then on April 1st, which is the next day, some coffee sellers named Hans and Edward arrived to take an order. They walked around, didn't see anyone. They saw that the machine house was open, but the gate had been broken for a while, so they knew that. And they just left.

They didn't see anyone and thought that was kind of weird. A man, during this time, also a man named Michael happened to pass by. He said that he saw that the oven was on. He saw the smoke. And when he kind of walked by, he saw a person outside. and that person like pointed a lantern at him in a way that like he couldn't see who they were and then he kind of like ran away because he was scared so he saw someone he doesn't know who it was that's also very creepy I know when so this reminds me a couple of a long time ago miles was just a baby I was sitting on the couch in our LA apartment and I was feet I was like breastfeeding miles so I couldn't move and Florence was in there too and one was in the kitchen and someone tried to open her door and I was like one oh my god So Juan came running, and then, like, they had open our neighbors or two, and they left, and it was this old couple. And I think they had found, like, a big ring of, like, mail keys, like, the postman would have and, like, tried to open up people's doors.

But I was like, we were very clearly home. And they tried to open up our door. And then afterwards, like, one and our neighbor called the police, and the police were, like, we found him. Let's see if you know who he is. So they took them to a place, and they just had the guy standing in front of a cop car, and they'd, like, shown the lights at his face if he couldn't see them. But they could see him. Wait, they couldn't see him? like they could see that they could see the man who tried to make into our house but the man couldn't see one oh well that's good yeah yeah you know you know you knew that that was the guy yeah we saw him through the keyhole we were like very clearly home it was really weird and scary wow okay yeah and then in the end the police officers were like we're just gonna drive him to Hollywood and let him out and hopefully he doesn't come back

it's not good police great job LAPD I know perfect perfect response to that So someone else said, two people, no, there's some, like, suspicious things happening. So because the other little girl was out of school for a couple days, family didn't go to church on Sunday. So people started to, like, get suspicious. Like, where are they? We haven't seen them in a while. April 4th, a dude named Albert Hoffner came to repair an engine. Like, he knew that he was supposed to go and repair this machine in the machine house.

He didn't see anyone there. Kind of walked around, knocked on the doors, was like, what's going on? he ended up going into the barn not the barn the machine house like a different outbuilding and spending four hours fixing the tractor or whatever it was and while he was there it he said that when he got out of the barn some things were different like someone had like kind of cleaned up a little bit after he had done that so it sounds like the person or persons who was in the house left during the time that he was in the barn like he was in the machine house fixing the tractor so it's interesting how tidy this guy was I know he just kept cleaning up for like the blood people. I mean, he's a nice house guest absent the killing part. Yeah, yeah, totally. I've had the animals, all the whole thing. He is possible that Albert's presence made the, the guy leave. Later in the day, the neighbor Lawrence Shelton Bauer, who's possibly the dad of Joseph, sent his sons to see if anybody was there because he was like, it's weird to have an answer to the door. The kids came back and said, we can't find anybody. So Lawrence went back with some grownups and thank God the kids didn't find the bodies. The grownups did. They found them in the barn and in the house. So they're the ones who are the first people to find them. The police are called, and then here are the list of suspects. And again, like, we'll never know who actually did it. But here's what people think about it.

Lorenz is a big suspect, obviously. He's possibly the father of Joseph. He 100% had an affair with Victoria. He also was super weird and did some, like, weird things. So when he got there, he, like, tried to move the bodies around to, like, see them better or something. So he just, like, touched all of the crime scene, like, a lot. During this time, you could use. fingerprints like pink fingerprints were had been invented as like a way to to solve crimes but they

didn't do it in this case for whatever reason they didn't take fingerprints he also like laurence had a alibi for the night of the murders but I think he's pretty suspicious like he he he was the one who ended up finding the murder weapon in the attic being like oh it's here I just tripped over it you know like okay suspicious and he also you know because of the kid like he you know maybe was mad at Andreas for what he had done to have like Toria. Maybe he didn't want to pay child support for Yosef. Who knows? And he also, like, lived really close. So he could have definitely, like, had the, like, proximity to do it. But also, because he lived so close, like, he wouldn't really need to hang out there. So that I think is weird. And before he died, he died in 1941. He did win a bunch of civil claims for slander against people who called him the murderer of Hintrakeye. So maybe he didn't do it. I also don't want him to have done it because it's much scarier. to think of someone who had no motivation who just blew in from out of town and did that. That's so much freakier than like, yeah, here's all the logical reasons why this guy would do it.

100%. That's definitely like way more scary. A couple other people, some people think that Carl Gabriel did not die in World War I. And he came back and he did it. So he got home to Hitcher Kaifax was like, huh, my wife has a son who's two. I've been gone from three years, you know, did some math, got super upset and killed everybody and then just disappeared into the wind. So that's a, I mean, there's no evidence for that, but some people think that. There's another man who named Severin, who was a former lover of Victoria's. I think he could have done it. There's a man named Peter Weber, who was talking to a friend and saying, like, I've done some work at Hendrik Hafeck. They have a lot of money.

We should go back there and we should steal all their money and kill them, which is exactly the plot of in cold blood. Have you read that? No, I have not read that, but I saw. the movie Capote Taylor the universal answer the question of have I read that is no I've seen the movie versions of anything it's like but I feel like if you're gonna read that a book you should read in cold blood I know it's so scary I remember reading it and being like I am so scared I felt like in friends when Julie put the book in the freezer like I felt like I wanted to do that like I was like this is so scary you know I've heard that a lot I've heard that a lot

but you are also like a super avid reader and you had that exact same reactions that old lady seen an it when you read that and you threw your book i did throw my thank you for bringing that that was very specific i did throw my book when i read the old lady scene in it because it was so scary i was at a i was at a restaurant okay so yes so a lot of people could have done it everyone hated andrea so there's a bunch of brothers people suspect so there's like two brothers called the gump brothers and they think that they that they might have done it but they there's no really not enough of evidence for them there's a woman named teresa in 1971 she said that when she was 12 her mother got visited by two brothers

named Carl and Andreas and she said that they had done they had confessed to the mother in front of her when she was 12 that they did it but that also feels really weird I don't think that they that seems like very suspicious and that lady just wanted to get some attention

there's also another pair of brothers called the Bickler brothers and their friend Gayorg they repeatedly said that the family should be dead so you know saying that out loud you probably shouldn't do that so they think that maybe they did it

you know, the three of them did it together, but there's no proof to that. The only thing that is, like, maybe leans in that direction is, like, the family dog hated everyone except these guys for some reason. So they, like, knew the family, so the dog might have been calm when they came over and never barked when they were, like, sneaking around. So, like, that could have been it. And then also, this is super weird. The maid, the original maid, she said, in addition to hearing this footsteps in the attic,

she used to talk to someone outside of her window, and she thought it was one of of these guys and these guys were like it wasn't us what i know this does not sound like somebody of sound mine or it sounds like a complete liar is what it sounds like i mean like could you imagine someone like hello far as i think the other side of your window don't look at my face i be yeah i mean someone else taylor if i heard your voice it would scare the shit of me oh my god i know it's so scary like what's going on to like what's happy like there's something going oh man that sounds like that sounds like it's like one of those like japanese horror movies like the level like multiple levels of scary yeah it's so scary so like that

is such a weird story so like i don't know maybe it was maybe it was them moving around but just like i don't know why i don't know and also like who the fuck was the maid talking to like i don't i don't know was anyone so that's terrifying other brothers a lot of a lot of people that were like investigated but no one was ever convicted the last thing And this is what I think you were talking about is like the actual scariest thing is maybe it was someone they didn't know. You know, maybe it's someone who just like suck around and sit in the attic for a little bit and then killed them and then left because they just wanted to kill people. This is, this theory is in the book, The Man from the Train, which I actually did read also. And it's about the man who did the, remember the Veselia Axe murders?

No. It sounds familiar, but I don't remember it. So I'm going to see. Maybe I'm saying that wrong. It's a V-I-L-I-S-C-A. So Vizilka axe murders. Those are on June 10th, 1912. So it was a in Vasilka, Iowa. There were a family lived in this like farmhouse. And there were, I think, six people in the family. And then two little girls were just like spending the night having a sleepover. And they were all murdered with an axe. They were all of the mirrors in the house recovered when people found out. found them which was so scary so all the mirrors were covered all of the all of the bodies were like kind of like scattered around the house the guy definitely like masturbated over the bodies particularly of the little girls so there's like a real bad guy but so that's like one of the scariest fucking stories and so in this book the man from the train the author bill james he you know talks about how there's a bunch of other crimes that are very very similar to that one and they all occur in like really close proximity to a train

as someone, like, going in and, like, murdering a family and leaving just because he, like, wants to murder people. I thought the scary, I think this book was like, okay, and I think it was great. I wish it had been better. But, oh, wait, this is other, now Wikipedia says it was in 1897, so that can't be true. No, it was 1912. Anyway, I feel like now there's just so much wrong information on the internet. So much, so much conflicting stuff. Like, I, with my story, what, and I'm going to go through, I'm like, I, you could fact chip me on like 50 points here and you're going to have. whole different sources of problem so i mean maybe it's because i'm like researching things more than i ever have but i'm like what the hell this is yeah and i was like asking i was like yesterday i tried to ask bard for facts because i was like oh i've never used

bard like i may just ask it a question and it was like very wrong like totally wrong and i was like that's wrong and it was like i'm learning i was like what why don't don't trust bard but anyway so in the man from the train i think it was in 1912 when you kill that that like family in iowa that you can stay at that house also bt dub's a um like a bread of bed and breakfast which is terrible so he you know he would kill people he wouldn't rob them he just wanted to kill people the scariest thing that happened in that book that i remember is that the one thing that the author says is like people were always like there was a really creaky step at that on that at that house so like how could he have killed everybody upstairs

and killed everybody downstairs without everybody hearing you know like there's just like no way he could have like snuck around the house and kill people like we were saying with like the defa murderers like you can't shoot everybody you anybody else waking up but the author was like he didn't tiptoe up the stairs he ran up the stairs and killed everybody you know he just like did it so fast that no one had time to react which I think is terrifying and makes sense yeah sure I mean you can see both I think that we're overemphasizing like a creek on a stairs going to wake somebody up like if you have a family you have people in your house we're going to be walking up down the stairs like they want to go

down and get that's a couple of water like you're going to hear shit it's like yeah that's a house settling i hear shit all the time my house and it's somewhat terrifying sometimes but i don't have you you don't check your attic or busy no taylor one one time i might have told you this one time it was like the first night i moved into the new house and luna wasn't with me which like is extra creepy because i don't know what happened in that house maybe somebody was killed there i don't have no idea and i'm in my room i'm dead asleep and i basically hear the girl from the ring just screaming outside my bedroom window what and i'm like whoa like i my every hair i have like stood up on it it was the most terrible middle of night like three four o'clock in the night in the

morning and i told somebody about this like a few nights later i was like i heard this sound it was a scary thing ever heard and then they played for me foxes howling on youtube oh foxes had the most terrifying howl i've ever heard of my entire when we're done recording when we're done all of all this stuff go listen to it if you ever hear that sound you will literally think that like that woman is crawling out of your tv to come into your room and kill you and it is just a fox so anyways i'm so good i figured it out no i'm also good i didn't talk to you just like yelled that's so scary in college one time my my shampoo fell off my thing into my bathtub the middle of the night and i've never ever been more scared of my life it was like a huge bang

you know so this author thinks that the man from the train is a man named Paul Mueller. Paul Mueller was a German immigrant in America and he was like a vagrant, you know, on trains all the time and he, there's like evidence that he's in the places where a lot of people were killed. So that's the person that he thinks it is. But Paul Mueller also disappears. The acts murders in America stop after like a certain amount of time. So he thinks that Paul Mueller went back to Germany and he did the Kinder-Khyphic murders. Because the timing could technically work out because also because he was German so he would like he could leave America go back blend into Germany and he would obviously literally never be found you know so that's what uh that's

what the author of the man for the train thinks I don't know there was a in 20 2007 15 students at the police academy in this is hilarious okay so and I took a lot of German but the police academy is called Pulitzer Fakhoekshula and the place that they are from is furious Feldbrook. No, Fierston Feldbrook, one word. First and Feldberg. Okay. So they examined the case using modern criminal techniques. They confirmed

that they know who it is using the forensics and what they had and all these things, but they won't say who they think it is because they don't want his family to, in consideration of his descendants, which is super dumb. That is, yeah, that's really gracious. I don't want to know if I was the

axe murder. Give me a break. If you have to help people. So the Gruber family was buried, in Weidhafen Cemetery near there. They were buried without their heads because their skulls have been sent to a psychic to try to identify the killer. That did not work. I love all the tiny medicine. She said, I don't know why she needed their heads. She said that the murders had been committed by two people and that the murder weapon was still on the property, which is true because they actually didn't find the weapon until they were demolishing it.

So that part was true. So maybe it was two people. I don't know, 50% right so far. The skulls were kept in the Justice Building in Aus in Augustburg, Germany, and they were just destroyed by bombing during World War II. Wow. Well, pretty sureball.

In 1923, just a year later, Hinder-Kaafik Farm was demolished, so you can't go there anymore, you can't visit it. It's kind of even not clear exactly where the buildings were, probably because people were going there and, you know, being weird and creepy and trying to see what was up and scare each other.

So they demolish the whole thing, and then, you know, kind of folds into World War II and a bunch of other stuff happened. So it was all kind of ruined. But it's a mystery and it will be a mystery forever, which is exciting and it's so scary. Just the idea of a murder in your attic. I think the, okay, so I'm going to be quoting Heath Ledger's The Joker in this. It is the unpredictability of it that makes it terrifying. That's why the whole lack of motivation part is like, as a horror story,

it is much better to have no motivation and just assume that there's some psycho out there who's just knocking on doors seeing what's open i'm going to go but like also it makes you wonder why someone would do that anyways if they were living there for that long well we don't know how they were living there but the maid the earlier maids said that she thought the house was haunted which like maybe it was or it was this person you know that she was picking up on so if you're just living comfortably there anyways then who cares like just like what was what was the added motivation and killing them rather than being crazy other than being crazy and i think that like i mean if it was so the red the the relationship be part is like if it was the lauren's the neighbor slash possible father of

the boy then like it's because you know he didn't want to play child support for this like a fair baby that he had and that's why he did it other people like some of their motivation from these like groups of brothers is like they were so mad and grossed out by the incest that they thought that the family should die. So both things are like red flaggy like that is the thing that like ultimately might have been the thing. But it also might have been just fucking a guy who found their house and wanted to kill them, which is I think the most fun slash scariest answer. Yeah, yeah. Is there, are any movies on this. Did you see any media? There are some movies that I haven't. I didn't watch. I think there's there's one. Oh, there's one that got bad reviews, but it's like a horror

movie of someone who like went there but it's like not about the murders it's about like someone going there and investigate the murders anyways it doesn't look as good but the episode of lore is on amazon prime and it's about an hour long and they it's pretty good they go through like they kind of like layer on top the different scenarios of what they think might have happened so like the different people that they they think it might be and they show them each doing it being like oh maybe it was like the um the husband coming back from from the war and he you know he was saw the family was upset or maybe it was the neighbor or whatever so it doesn't it mentions the stranger but it doesn't like do that but it does like okay just watch it anyway but the beginning of it it does show like

the mailman coming and being like huh like kind of looking around and they have like the murderer you only see like his bottom half but he's like holding the axe behind the door and the mailman's like knocking on it which is fun because that's really fucking scary for that mailman yeah yeah wow yeah yeah what a what a crazy there's um there's um the streets of compilation of all these deaths that are incredibly incredibly mysterious like i do remember that cabin death i'm gonna research family i'll send information on it but there was like the exact same story with it's like family was on these different cabins all in the woods all together and then like all them died and act to death nobody has any idea what happened to it was it's just like

that's just like chills like remember they happened like in like the 80s happened to girl scout camp there was like girl scout camp cabins and the cabin that was furthest away the girls all got murdered. That's so creepy. Also, I'm going to Girls'Cat camp in a few weeks, so I will probably die afraid. I don't know why I brought that up, because I'm about to go to Girls Back Camp. When I was flying across the Atlantic, I was just thinking about how you were referencing that Malaysian flight that just disintegrated over the air in the last episode.

Oh, I'm sorry. That has a documentary about it, and it's a fucking mystery. The documentary does not have any answers. It's real scary. So I don't, I haven't watched that. that I've read that the prevailing theory and suspicion is that the U.S. military accidentally shot out of the air when they were conducting other exercises and buried buried the lead basically that's what I think too after watching the documentary

that's my vote oh is that what the documentary says it's one of the options and it seems very like more it seems more likely than the other ones yeah yeah okay cool freaky story if you hear a creek in your house there's probably someone living in your house that you're unaware of likely it's a nine out of ten chance so lucky to or if you hear the girl from the ring screaming it's probably a fox howling oh my god facts that you're just only to get on this show You know,