Doomed to Fail - Ep 224: Crowd Chaos - The Hillsborough and Happy Valley Disasters

Episode Date: November 10, 2025

Today, we have two stories of disasters at sporting events. First, we'll talk about the 1989 Crowd Crush at the Liverpool / Nottingham Forest FA Cup game at Hillsborough Stadium in the UK. Poor planning and new leadership ended in the deaths of 97 people. Then, we will go back to 1918 to the Happy Valley Racecourse Fire where over 600 people were killed when grandstands made of bamboo fell into food stands with open flames. Finally, we'll talk about how you can stay safe in a crowd, from knowing your exits at all times to making sure you have a few centimeters in front of your chest free for breathing.  ​​HILLSBOROUGHHillsborough tragedy: a reconstruction - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCFuQLUD-LQHillsborough Disaster: How it Happened in 1989 - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J6kAtdwNJ5sHillsborough: anatomy of a disaster - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PYNeoTXe-SE15 Darkest Moments in Sports History - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-fg7OADzsk Join our Founders Club on Patreon to get ad-free episodes for life! patreon.com/DoomedtoFailPodWe would love to hear from you! Please follow along! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doomedtofailpod/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/doomedtofailpod  Youtube:  https://www.youtube.com/@doomedtofailpod TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@doomed.to.fail.pod Email: [e-mail] 

It's a matter of the people of the state of California versus Hortonthal James Simpson, case number B.A.019. And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can. Back again. Hello, Taylor. How are you? Happy Sunday. Good. Good. How are you? I, you just, you ruined me because you shared the SORA app. And, man, it is just too much fun. I know. Such a like, I know that I am upset about AI podcasts, but I know that I shouldn't do AI art, but I still do.

And Sora as like AI videos. And it's just incredible. And also, we're all going to die. I mean, I was thinking about this. Like, we're not that far off from them. They just make movies this way. Oh, 100%. Is your microphone plugged in?

I'm so sorry. Please don't be mad at me. No, it's not plugged in. Okay, because you sound far away. we're going to get there um did you say but did you say the movie mountainhead because like that's about like billionaires and something but they um basically like the world is goes to shit because people can't tell the difference between news and like legit fake news anymore you know um i did see that movie and uh yeah that feels like the uncanny valley that we're heading for right now absolutely

and the yeah you're right like movies i don't know yeah where is it all going to go yeah it's It's going to, and it all happened so fast, which, like, I guess we knew it would, but, like, I mean, that's what I told you, just, like, being Google into this is crazy. I said something about how, like, we're not going to recognize the world that, like, Flo and Miles' kids grow up in, but then I was like, we're not going to recognize the world they grow. Like, like, like, we're going to recognize the world in, like, a year. Yeah. Yeah, like, them at 30 years old, like, I don't, they're probably going to, yeah, we're going to be so different. I know. Even, like, yeah, I mean, just who.

Who would have even known where we'd be right now? That's so stupid, but like, when I was a kid, I didn't even, like, I couldn't have conceived the internet, so what was I supposed to think I was going to be? Like, what is going to change so much in their lifetimes? Yeah. I don't know. Wild. I don't know.

Wild. Well, go ahead and introduce us. Yes. Cool. Hello. Welcome to doomed to fail. We bring new historical disasters and failures twice. No, not always week.

Every week. Every week. I'm Taylor joined by Fars. If you saw the maneuvering I was doing on my laptop to be able to get to this, this mic, and the dog is underneath here, in between like seven different wires, like one leg is over one, one leg is under, it's a whole mess. Do you remember when I was so pregnant, I took it upon myself to remove the drawer in my desk at work, and then they got stuck underneath it? I don't remember that, but that does sound like you. I needed you to help me get out because you were like working next to me, and I was under the desk, unscrewing this drawer so I could fit my belly under the. desk and then i got stuck down there and i had to like pull on your leg i'd be like we had some

memories uh yeah cool well i i i will start us off yeah i'm ready kick us off i this is a suggestion from justin who also doesn't want a dog that's how we know him he responded to our we just don't want dog's plea or mine and said that he was he was one of us on my side there's dozens of us anyway thank you justin he writes in often i appreciate it um so i'm going to do a story that he suggested that's like from the 1980s and then i found um another disaster that i'll tell you about from 1918 and then i'll tell you some safety tips on how to avoid such disasters i'm just going And just a note that, Justin, while I'm trying to get the 17 wires out from under my dog, I kind of agree with your sentiment right now. So it's okay.

Thank you. That's fair. So, okay, I'm going to talk about crowd disasters. And I have two. There's the 1989 Hillsborough disaster in the UK and then the Happy Valley Racecourse Fire in Hong Kong in 1918. Sweet. So, picture it. It is April 15th, 1989.

It is the semifinals of the Football Association Challenge Cup, which is the FAA Cup, which is an annual English, like, I think, single elimination tournament. Liverpool is playing Nottingham Forest, which sounds fake, but it's real. That sounds charming. I know. And they're at the Hill. Wellsboro Stadium in South Yorkshire. So it's, you know, a big game. People are excited.

They expect 54,000 people to show up at the stadium. And the game starts at 3 p.m. And the way that it works is like, I don't know, I feel like when I go to an American sporting event, there aren't like places for your team. You just kind of like hope there's people around you that like your team, right? Yeah. Yeah.

It kind of reminds me actually a little bit of like one of our very first episodes on the Nika riots where the sporting teams actually were just like colors. It's like this is a blue section. Like you got medieval times, like the section for your, for your color. But in this case, it's customary in these situations that they'll put fans of the same team together so that they'll, I don't know, be able to celebrate and have fun. Like you don't want to like, you know, go to a game and be next to like a Philly's fan who's going to punch him in the face. I mean, on the one hand, it's probably a good thing that we mingle people. So we all have to learn how to be humans with each other in those settings. But on the other hand, I do think that soccer or football in the UK is like next level violence and aggression with the fandom there.

So maybe they have to do it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. This is how they do it. And so there was a section for the Liverpool fans. so the seating also wasn't in these sections was not assigned it was just like they call it a pen but it has like bleacher seating standing room only areas like it's sort of like I think it's actually mostly standing room only on like the bottom the floor level and people are supposed to kind of like figure themselves out in that area makes sense yeah I get up so we're getting ready for the game people are excited if you are in the Liverpool section, you have to go through a street into this kind of back entrance where there are seven turnstiles. So the turnstiles obviously are meant to count people and slow people down

as they're coming in. And it is a bottleneck because there's 10,000 people now trying to get into those seven turnstiles. And you can see videos of this because it was in 1989. So they are trying to get in the crowd, even before they go into the turnstiles on the road, it looks like a wave. They're like moving back and forth together because they're so close to each other. And there's a couple of people you can see, like there are police officers there and people who are supposed to be doing crowd control. And like one of them,

like there's people on horses, but the horses, like you can't, like horses can barely move. You know, there's probably people underneath them. They're already so close together and they're not even through the turnstiles yet. there is a newish police officer he's called a superintendent superintendent roger marshal and you can see videos of him and he looks very worried like he you can see like it zoomed in on his face and he's wearing his little cap you know and he's like his eyes are wide open and he's like looking around because like he knows like this is not good like already and right even in the stadium yet you know um so he definitely

was out of his league he didn't know what to do he was relatively new. The chief superintendent, who's a police officer in charge, is named David Duckenfield, and he is brand new. He just started it a few weeks ago, and he doesn't know how to control the crowd in this particular stadium. The person before him did know because stuff like this had happened before in this area specifically. In 1981, there was another game, and this one sounds unbelievably fake. It's the Tottenham Hotspurs and the Wolverhampton Wanderers. You're just making stuff up. I mean, I'm maddened that up because that's all mad libs.

But there was a similar push in this exact same spot before the turnstiles. And this place is called Leppings Lane. That's like the name of the road that these 10,000 fans are going down toward the seven turnstiles. So with 1981, there had been like a crush there and 38 people were injured. So they were like, we knew what to do and they knew what happened. And the reason that Duckenfield is there and literally brand new in the job is because the superintendent before him, his name was Brian Moll. And he had just been fired or like moved for disciplinary reasons because there was a hazing incident in the police department or they like strip a guy naked and pretended that he was being robbed and it was bad. So he did that.

Yeah. So a lot of people. But to say like so Brian Moll did that, which is bad. yes but also brian mole knew what to do in the situation and david duncfield did not he was like three weeks on the job makes sense i mean yeah i would probably train him then yeah they didn't they didn't do that he didn't know he didn't know how it he just for whatever is it he didn't know so there was something that mole would you would do so the way that it works is you go through the seven turnstiles and then there's a center tunnel you go through the center tunnel and then you're

out in that, like, standing room only area for the Liverpool fans. If you look at the videos of this disaster or for people who were there, there was space on the sides. So they could have, like, moved the crowd, not just into the center. They could have moved them to the sides, and it would have been okay. But Duck and Field didn't know how to do this because what mole would do is close that center tunnel, so you couldn't go through there. Because if you get let through a door, you're going to go through the door that's closest to you, to go to your seat, you know, like you're not going to go to the side. You're not going to go to the side.

You're going to be like, oh, I want to be like right in the front, right in the center. This tunnel's leading you to the center. This is where I want to be. So they would close the tunnel and people would be forced to go around it and then it would like avoid any problems. Right. Usually. But they didn't know to do this this time. So Duckenfield actually, he's sitting in like a, like a little box in the stands. That's like a command center. So he's sitting there and he's been there since 2 p.m. and he just, like, stays in his box and is, like, kind of watching what is happening as it happens. So the game hasn't even started. It's right before 3 o'clock, and all these Liverpool fans, they're going slowly through those turnstiles,

and they're still going through this center tunnel, even though there's not enough room for them in there. They're still going because no one's told them not to, and they're just kind of, like, moving together as a crowd. At 2.40 p.m., a young boy is lifted out of the crowd by police, like, someone hands a child to someone, because, like, it's already getting, like, really, really crazy. At 252, Duck and Field says, okay, let's try to stop this bottleneck and let's open up the exit gate and let people in the exit gate. So that instead of what? Oh, I say a little hand raise. No, no, no.

So the exit gate being let's let them in that way so that they're not going to the turnstiles anymore. Yes, because the turnstiles are taking too long. Dump them to the main. Okay, I got it. Yeah. But when you open the exit gate, then you have. like 3,000 people running in at the same time. Right.

You know, like the turnstiles are annoying, but also like part of their utility is to slow people down. Sure. So that you don't just like rush the gate. But Duck and field said yes. And he's the one who ordered the gate to be opened. So thousands of more people try to get in. The game starts exactly at three.

Almost right away, you could see that something was wrong on that side where those Liverpool fans were. So as the game is in its first minutes, people are. being pushed and jumping over the fence onto the field. You can also see people in the back of the, of like the pen that they're in, reaching up and being pulled to the balconies by people at the top, people above them. Because you could see people are just being pushed and pushed and pushed, but they're being pushed against the fence that is like on, going like into the stadium.

So they're either falling over it or they're being crushed like within that. So by 306, the game's only been on for six minutes. the players are ordered to leave the field because they're like, we got to get people guys are helping people. People are trying to help each other. And at 315 nothing is like they had called an ambulance. Ambulance had

even come yet. But by 315 so this has only been happening for like maybe 30 minutes, Duck and Field already starts the rumor that the Liverpool fans broke down the exit gate to get in when they did not. Why would he

because he's trying to cover his butt. Oh, okay. I was, I was, I say, isn't it bad if you try to seed misinformation and disorder in the situation? And so, like, this whole thing is like, Duckenfield is like shit. And he's like, you know what I'm going to do? I need to dive into that stereotype that we started with, which is like the drunken soccer hooligan, and say they were overly drunk and say that they pushed down this thing. This is before the ambulances even get there, but he knows. even like how many people are injured because he knows he fucked up.

Yeah. You know, so the first ambulance arrives by 316, but people are already dead. In the end, there's over 400 injuries and 97 deaths. That's crazy. What a horrible way to die. Horrible. It's exfixiation and just like being crushed to death. Like that's how they died.

90 were men, seven were women. 38 of them were children. so under the age of 18. There were 40 people in their 20s, 12 in their 30s, and only six people who were older than that. So it was like a young group. This is just some things from some stats that I got from Wikipedia. Two sisters, three pairs of brothers, a father and son.

Two men were about to become fathers for the first time, which is super sad. The youngest person to die was 10. His name was John Paul Gilhuli, and his cousin, Stephen Gerard was eight years old. He wasn't there. He wasn't at the game, but his cousin was there. And he would come on, he would, in his future,

be Liverpool's captain, which is pretty cool. And he was like, always, always think of his cousin and stuff. One person, he ended up dying by suicide in 2011 because he had given his ticket to his friend, and his friend died. And he just couldn't handle it anymore, you know? So, like, there's so much other, so many other

injuries. You can see, if you look at the aftermath photos, that there is a lot of like things are crushed like the railing is crushed there's like railings like in between kind of pen people off those are all crushed and we have all those pictures that really make it that like show how like how violent it was um because by 6 p.m they have a photographer in there trying to specifically take photos that would find a way to blame people for being drunk yeah they're trying to scapegoat they're trying to escape go trying to get out of it so that's what he

says he says duck and dougainfield says the people were drunk they're hooligans they pushed over the gate they didn't have tickets there's also like news coverage of people holding their tickets and being like we had tickets you know like it wasn't people just like

breaking into this um the next day margaret thatcher came um to you know pay her respects and she also blamed the crowd because that's what she had been told you know yeah so um there was

there were several hearings and inquest. This is actually the longest inquest in British history because there are so many different pieces of it. But almost immediately in 1989, Lord Justice Taylor, who it was, you know, as a judge, did the Taylor inquiry. And he found that the turnstiles were the problem. The police should have had anticipated this. And then the pen, where the people were in the section they were in,

had a 2,200 person limit but really it should have been 1,600, like the limit was even like way too high and there were 3,000 people in it. Yeah. So it was just like way over the crowded. He also said that people were quote, not drunk nor even the worst for a drink.

So like there was no evidence of that either. I mean they'd just gotten there. Yeah. Most you'd do is a couple of beers before you head out with your buddies. I would imagine. Exactly. But they stopped selling beer and like, the seventh inning Yankee Stadium.

Right. Yeah. You know. So all in all, he, he, he, Taylor concluded that, you know, the police were, um, defensive and, like, didn't want to blame themselves and it was definitely, definitely their fault. Um, and families continued to sue and like, ask for justice, ask for apology. Several prime ministers apologized, um, like, publicly for what had happened.

Um, finally in, in 2014, like, the whole thing kind of came to. him a close and duck and field did admit that he froze he panicked and he should have closed the title and he didn't know and he didn't do it so it was his fault yeah i mean i would say i would also i don't know like when so whenever i see a metro or i'm about to get on a metro at like the airport that's the most likely place i want to get on one between terminals you never go to the place where you were dumped by the escalator you go further from that because that's where the crush of people is going to be 100% yeah you want to be on like the end you don't want to be like exactly where you walk where you walk in right right I'm not going to

victim blame but also just don't just move move well it's almost impossible to move when there's 3,000 people pushing no I'm saying I'm saying like go the other if there's people in front of you just go you said yourself like out of the tunnel you exit the sides are all wide open so the crowd's already to go into the middle, I think it'd be really hard to move. Yeah, if you're, if you're already there, then you're screwed. But if you're not, just be a same person and move. You should know that from before. Right.

Right. Yeah. Yeah. So it did change some of the requirements for stadiums in the UK, obviously, to make things safer. Just this September, September 2025, the prime minister of the UK Kear, Starrmer, he said he put forward a law called the Hillsborough law, which is a public authority accountability bill, which is a law that will make it

like easier for police officers to tell the truth, basically. And like people in those roles to be like, listen, if you tell me that your boss fucked up, you're not going to get fired, you know. Yeah, I'm surprised they don't have that already. Yeah, well, it's in there now and they're working on it. Have you ever been in a crowd like that? Have you ever been in crowded places? I've been in like concerts where it like turns into a mosh pit.

Yeah, I was thinking that too I think a part of why I don't like going to concerts At least not concerts where there's not assigned seating Is because of experiences like that when I was younger You know where you show up and you can just be in a crowd And then all of a sudden everybody's You know what? I take what I said back Because I've done the exact same thing

Where I just try and weasel my way through the crowd To get towards the front center Of course So I've totally done that And then you're there And then you realize like Oh this is getting kind of

ugly and then you keep trying to find your way out and then yeah you're in like you're the mercy of the crowd you're the mercy of the crowd it's it's literally like you're in a reptide you know you have to go with it there's also like I've been at concerts where I've been in the front because my sister like really want like she's really good like running to the front and like getting their hours early and come home and I have bruises on my legs from the fence you know yeah because I am being pushed against it so I haven't been anything where I thought I was like going to die but also I'm short too so like it's hard for me to find a good place in a skating room only area

anyway because I can't see shit. So I have to like sometimes I'll just like be in the back where I can like kind of be up a little bit and then I can see better because otherwise I can't say. And like we were talking about this like I don't want to buy tickets in the orchestra level because I can't see anything. Yeah. That's the only benefit I've had is being like bigger and taller. I can kind of

see what's happening in front of me and gauge the feasibility of something. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I could get lost a lot easier. I could just disappear. We'll go see Dan Carlin. We'll make sure we have like a flag attached to you so I can that like goes above you and I mean the standing room only section um so that's one um absolutely awful and definitely the fault of of the police and

the event planners um another one another crowd it's not it's not a crowd crush but it's like a crowd tragedy that came up in my research that i had not heard of um that has a much much much much larger death toll um is the happy valley race course fire in hong kong in 1918 this is a deadly is fire in Hong Kong history, because you'll see a lot of people died. It was February 26th, 1918, and this is a horse race, and they expected a lot of people, and so they built temporary grandstands out of bamboo, which is like a strong building material, but they were built not very well, and they were built really quickly. So it's like 90 meters of grandstand, so like half of a football field, right, of a grandstand.

And after the first race goes fine, which actually, now that I say that out loud, I feel like having a horse race next to something poorly constructed is probably also part of the problem. Yeah, of course. You know, like, you know what Harry Potter, when they like go to the Quidditch matches and they're on those really tall risers? Absolutely not. Yeah, it's so terrifying. You never do that. It reminds me of those houses in L.A. like in Glassville Park area where they're on stilts and like, oh.

Fuck, no, absolutely not. No. That house we used to live in. Remember how? It was really scary. You'd walk and you knew there was nothing underneath you for like 90 feet. I hate that. Yeah.

No, that makes it really nervous. Yeah. So that probably, now that I think about it, probably a part you do with it too, because the ground shook, obviously,

because of all the horses. But right before 3 o'clock, right before 3 p.m., one section of the grandstand collapses. And then the whole thing collapses. It said like a pack of cards, just like a boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. The whole thing falls.

There were 3,000 people. that were on these grandstands and besides the fact they just fell they also fell onto food carts that had open flames and the bamboo immediately caught on fire. So this one is less a crowd crush and more the fire. People were succeeded because they were underneath piles and piles of people in debris and all of the things. And then the fire started and at first it was like a small fire but no one had any water and then even of course the fire hydrants weren't working so the actual fire hydrant at the race course should have um been working but that they could only get like 10 feet of spray out of it it wasn't like a full at full power so they had a bucket brigade brigade brigade from a golf course

next door to try to like get it out within five minutes they couldn't even rescue anybody because it was so hot and in 20 minutes the whole thing was just burnt ash nice people bamboo I assume bamboo goes up pretty quick yeah it went up real fast Um, the death toll is around 687, um, mostly women and children. That's less than I would have assumed when you said 3,000 people were on there. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Um, a lot of people were, you know, severely, severely injured. A lot of the bodies were never identified because they were just unrecognizable because of the heat of the fire. Um, they, people were trying to help each other, like in the field, like with burns and broken limbs and such.

They were trying to bring people to the hospitals. But, Even the hospitals were getting overwhelmed because it was also a measles outbreak and a, like a, whatever, at a fever outbreak as well. So they didn't have enough space for all the people. So it was just like tragedy upon tragedy. In the end, they had 614 of the bodies were buried in a mass grave, like individual coffins behind the racetrack. And now it is a memorial space, obviously. And there's also a lot of new laws, like almost immediately, like, grandsons have to be. built better. There has to be better water. You have to look at the crowd sizes, all of those

things. And it was also found to be the organizer's fault because they shouldn't have done that. They go to jail? I'm not sure. It was a long time ago. I feel like no, because I feel like there's a little bit of like British stuff happening. And they could just like way better to the rug. Interesting. You know what I mean? So that was that one. That's a short story, but I thought that was interesting because it was so much more than the Hillsborough one I had not heard of it. I didn't know that happened. There's one story I heard. It's true.

It happened here in the U.S. and it was like some minor league baseball game was going on and all the tickets in this small town were sold out and there was like an industrial factory adjacent to the baseball field and a bunch of people decided because they didn't have tickets they were going to go on top of the roof of this industrial building

and the roof obviously wasn't meant to support the weight of a ton of people up there. and a bunch of them fell into it and what was inside that that they fell into was a iron melting yeah it was it sounded really grotesque

it sounded like when they finally were able to cool it down enough to open it I mean it was just like it was just they turned into lava basically yeah that's terrible oh but a terrible way to go it's so scary it's got to be quick though right I don't know I feel like there's a minute that you know and you like watch your foot catch on fire

and then you're consumed. I mean, I mean, like, your last, you know, hopefully you don't remember your last minute. Yeah. The first, like, seven seconds have to be horrible. Oh, God, it's like the falling. I hate that. So, okay, what do you do?

How do you survive these things? I have some tips. If you were planning an event, follow the rules and don't be dumb. Look at capacity limits and make sure that you know what they are for like the stadium or like the area that you are doing your thing typically it should be two people per square meter if it's six people per square meter that's when people die so like you should plan for two and try not have it any more than three and you should have an idea of what that looks

like and there's like places online you find what that looks like you also should know your crowd flow and know the things that you should have people do and you should try to segment folks as well so if they're like actually are in pens and like that pen can just like work with itself so it's not the full weight of the crowd. Communication and early warning is important. Make sure that your team is trained and that they have the medical staff available. And then also, I think this one is super important for like performers and event hosts is like stop the show if something's happening. You know, I feel like people are nervous to do that, but like just stop and have like the performer talk to the crowd or be like everyone out, you know, or like whatever. Because there is research that like,

once people are aware of it then it gets better because they know everybody knows but it's the panic that makes it worse so you need to have you need to be able to say like we're stopping this like we need to stop right now you know what this all reminded me of is that

I know P. Diddy's been in the news a lot obviously but what he's been in jail for isn't actually even one of the worst things he's ever done in his life what I would presume is one of the worst things he's done in his life is he was he organized an event in 1990 in New York

and a stampede occurred he like he organized it terribly had no security in place and nine people died oh god that's terrible yeah because I was thinking I was like I think this happened I remember he did something related

to like killing a bunch of people it was this oh god that's awful but if you are in a crowd for any reason. First and foremost, always know your exit. Like, that's important if there is a fire.

If there is a shooter here in America, you know, you know how to get out immediately. You know where your closest exit is. Be aware of how many people that are around, like, and just be like, if you feel uncomfortable, leave. Like, you have to, like, don't be, like, if you feel like things are like exceptionally bad And you get like a little bit worried, like, maybe like the walls are moving in a weird way or like you can feel yourself being pushed by the crowd in certain ways and you no longer feel comfortable. Try to leave. And leaving early is better than not. You know, and you can like alleviate some of the crush. If you can't move your arms, you are in trouble. So like if you are in a place and you are pinned between people and you cannot lift your arms like to your face or in front of your chest, that's when you know things are like getting really, really bad. And you need to try to alert the people around you that something is happening. so that they're able to, like, alert other people and the whole crowd. If that works, they can calm down together and that actually has worked.

Has that really worked? It has. Like, there's a little, there's like, it said that there's like altruism in stadiums, like, in these crashes where you're like, okay. And everybody's like trying to figure it out together because you really are swaying together. But if you can't get, if you can't leave, you need to, most importantly, stay standing. But if you fall, you're fucked. Like, people will step on top of you. you will be ex-succeeded, you will be crushed, you will die. If you drop something, don't get it.

If someone falls, try to help them, but, like, don't get pulled down with them. As soon as one person falls, then more people fall, too, and then it's a pile of people, and, like, it just gets worse. So you should stand with your feet as, like, shoulder width if you can. And then also hold your arms up. If you can, like, wiggle them up to you, like a boxer in front of you. Even if you have, like, a tiny, like, a couple centimeters of space that will give you enough space to breathe so like try to hold your arms in front of you so that your lungs can move basically and try to stay standing man that would a scary concept the way the picture your painting is kind of terrifying you're being crushed like you're going to die so try to do that try to scream

because that uses oxygen as well so like conserve your breath try to protect your lungs try to stay standing i'm going to move with the crowd like a reptide so don't go against the crowd you know move with the crowd so like there might be times when like your feet don't touch the ground you know because you're being like pushed around but the most important thing is that you're able to breathe and then which this kind of sounds weird but actually makes sense is try to avoid obviously like walls and barriers but sometimes it's safer in the middle of the crowd so if you find yourself being like pushed toward a wall or toward like an immovable fence if you can move yourself i mean somehow back into the middle you have a better chance of surviving because like most of the

people who died in Hillsboro were crushed against the fence yeah you know um so um yeah try to breathe try to move with the crowd until like it dispenses and trying to get crushed against the floor or a wall um because that will that'll kill you also be mindful of like where you're going because the experiences that I'm telling you about where I felt like I was in, you know, kind of like realizing, oh, things are getting a little dicey. They were never, they were never, like, a Taylor Swift concert, not that I've ever been. But, like, they're never anything that's, like, very well orchestrated and planned. It's always, like, some dumpy bar decides you're going to have a show that night,

and they've never done shows, and then you show up, and the security guards are a bunch of 18-year-olds. Like, that's kind of... No, that's a really good point. Like, you hope that in these, like, huge stadium situations, like, Taylor Swift, like, there's so much security and so much stuff that goes into the planning of that. But yeah, if you're at like a place, it's like. Shady. Or small or shady.

Yeah, like, you know, you're at like a basement of a bar watching a band play. You know, just be careful. And me and Taylor are going to have to be careful ourselves when we go see Dan Carlin in February. We're not saying Dan Carlin. We're seeing Las Packers on the left. I was reading the mess, the screenshot you sent me that referenced Dan Carlin. sorry and last podcast on the left

yes we will be careful we will be careful not to get no I mean obviously like as I'm older I'm like not doing that you know like when you're younger I feel like you're more excited about going into the middle of a of a crowd like you know or do you want to be in the front or whatever and I'm like no thank you I would like to be

by the bathroom and be able to leave immediately you know where's where can I get water and convenient access to a toilet exactly exactly I'm like I'm not going to be in the front and have to be that's crazy yeah yeah um interesting story thank you for sharing thank you do we have any list in our mail today i do i have a text from morgan i'd pronounce the name of the record company in millie vindlea just like absolutely wrong i don't

even know if i can do it again um it's arista records is that right i think it's arista i said arista i don't know both of them the same now and i was like When I read it, Arista, I think it's Arista. Anyway, that was the record company in the United States. And then also, I sent you this, but Morgan was watching Jeopardy in the $2,000 question was she is the songwriter behind such hits as if I could turn back time and how do I live? And we know, the answer is who is Diane Warren, who wrote Blame in on the rain. And Fab Morven as of today is getting a Grammy nomination. It says 35 years after their million.

Vanilli Grammy Award was revoked. Yeah, it's for, it's for audio book. Yep, for the one you referenced. Which is how people like Barack Obama can have a Grammy, you know. Does Barack Obama really have a Grammy? Yeah, because it's for like his audiobook. Oh, interesting. Okay, I don't know that.

Um, there was something else. Oh, yeah. Grammys. I went, um, I went thrifting last weekend and I found the, record section and I did see a bunch of heiista produced yeah I know I know as I started saying it was like I think I'm gonna butcher this again but I went through every school when they had to see if they had milly-vinilly for you oh thank you they did not unfortunately they're all burned they're all burned yeah exactly deception um yeah that's it sweet thanks everyone

be careful out there be careful out there Taylor thank you for sharing we'll go out and Cut it off there.