Doomed to Fail - Ep 244: Arsenic Obsession - The Valentine Meat-Juice Incident

Episode Date: April 27, 2026

Today let's talk about the 'murder' of James Maybrick - a businessman in Liverpool in the 1880s who loved to medicate with poisions. A good, what-doesn't-kill-me-makes-me-stronger kind of guy.   James's young American wife, Florence, will be accused and tried of murder. It's a story of unmet expectations, Victorian medicine, and a very strong case for prison reform, even well over 100 years later.   Florence's book is avaialble via the public domain - https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/55773   Join our Founders Club on Patreon to get ad-free episodes for life! patreon.com/DoomedtoFailPodWe would love to hear from you! Please follow along! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doomedtofailpod/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/doomedtofailpod  Youtube:  https://www.youtube.com/@doomedtofailpod TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@doomed.to.fail.pod Email: [e-mail] 

In a matter of the people of the state of California, versus Hortlandall James Simpson, case number B.A.019. And so, my fellow Americans, what your country can do for you. Boom. Taylor, how are you? Good, little sticky from this drink I just poured myself, but I'm good. Did I steal my boom from Dan Carlin? This is like a boom.

Like a sound. It's at the end. It's a sound. It's a sound at some end. He doesn't say the word boom. Could you imagine? He could. He could.

It would be fine. How are you doing? How was the past, it was last time we talked. Good. It's been fine. We have our friends over this weekend. They just left. Look what I printed for my sister-in-law for her birthday.

That's pretty vase. You are on a tear. I know. I just moved it next to the window so I don't die of microplastics, but I probably will. We probably all. We all had microplastics. on her brain. Yeah, you know.

But yeah, no, it was good. How about you? How was your weekend? Good, good. I did a lot of yard work. I'm pretty sure I dumped a bunch of fire ants on my head. And, yeah, it's just exhausting. I actually just woke up from a nap.

So that's where I'm at. Do you have ant bites on your head? I can't, I don't know. But I was trying to cut this tree ranch down that was like, hanging over me and as I was putting into it, all these ants started like corny out of it. And I was like, oh my God, I got a doing this thing. And then

I have a bunch of bites all over my neck, so I assume there's probably some of my, in my ears and in my brain at this point. So it'll be good. It'll be fun. Yeah. Good for them. They can start taking over. They can do your job. Yeah. Yeah. So, anywho, that's

that's what's going on in my world. Do you want to introduce us? Yes, hello everyone. Welcome to doomed to fail. We bring you historical disasters and failures, and I am Taylor, joined by Fars. I'm joined here with Taylor. And today, we are going to get a Taylor-oriented story. That's true. I'm ready. This is not a vintage house or something vintage? Yeah, it's a Victorian murder.

There it is. That's what it was. Yes. Victorian vintage. I was close. It's close. Close enough. Yes, I promised a Victorian murder, and I have. one. So I made my dress because it's a disaster. So this one I'm going to call, this is one of the things this is called is the Valentine, which is a company, the Valentine meat juice incident. You broke out right when you said the main part. You said meat, meat juice?

Meat juice, yeah. You didn't break out. Wow. That's disgusting. Okay. Let's hear it. I said meat juice, which I'm pretty sure means bone broth. It's all about breaking.

Ah, okay. You know, but we'll get to that. All right. We'll get to that. So this is the case of Florence, Elizabeth Chandler, Maybrook, being accused and convicted of killing her husband, James Maybrook. Ready? Totally.

I read a book called, Did She Kill Him? I didn't read all of it. It was tedious. I couldn't finish it. So I was like, I don't know what to do. Then I found that Florence herself wrote a book. It's called Mrs. Maybrook's own story, my 15 lost years, which kind of turns into a prison reform story, which is super interesting. So we'll get to all of that.

But that's what I read is my main source. So I'm going to set the scene for you. It is 1889 and we are in England. This is, as you'll remember, the year after the Jack the Ripper murders. That's the vibe that we're going with around. I feel like that was probably the vibe for centuries there. Yeah. Yeah.

Like, speaking of like, microplastics, it's actually the coal dust that's going to kill you in this time. You know? There you go. Like, everyone has black lung. Or the random excrement that's being dumped in the middle of the streets. There's so many, so many ways today. So we talked about during the Jack the Ripper time in our Jack the Ripper episode about how awful it was to be poor in this time. that you were just like, you had like one outfit and you slept on the streets and you were covered in shit and cold dust.

Please. Yeah. Fleas. Red ants. Everything. Terrible. So, um, it's also not great for everyone. Like, really, there's no one that it's great for, you know, like, even Queen Victoria is like doing weird shit.

Like, you know, there's no plumbing. Like, nothing is, no one living. The. honestly luxurious life that we have with climate control in our houses and our fucking toilets that flushed, you know? Yeah, didn't they think Henry the 8th was gay because he showered once a month? Maybe. Yeah, something like that.

Like, we are, we are quite lucky to have this access to water for cleanliness, among other things. But so the Maybricks are middle class, but they are like middle class where, which is not, not only in this time. in Victorian times. It is very relevant today as well. But a middle class level where you're in a lot of debt to maintain your status. You know, that you are like renting a house that's too big for you.

Maybe you're leasing the vehicle that's too big. You are just like in debt, but you're not going to stop buying the things that are status simple things. You don't want anyone to know. Every time is how I know I'm old. Every time I drive by someone in a nice car, all I can think of is payments. Yeah. Oh, God, totally.

like it's not a flex anymore like it's a really like yeah same page yeah and i know that like gas is obviously going through crisis at the moment and it's a lot in california but like my in my car takes a lot of it's a it's a Subaru but there's like you know people in like the big huge trucks and such but i'll get to the gas station like the person in front of me has spent like a hundred and fifty dollars you know yeah there was one truck that i knew i was never going to get it was going to be way too stupid way too expensive but i was like i played these little fantasy games myself and kind of play it out. Sure.

It has this insane V8. It gets like 10 miles a gallon. I did the math on like how big the tank is and how much mileage you get out of the tank. It would in Texas. So two and a half exit for where you are. But in Texas, it would be $140 to drive 200 miles. Oh my God.

Yeah. It's insane. That's insane. Yeah. Turn to do it. Anyways. Good. I'm glad you didn't.

Yes. Because it's wild. There is a. It's a. that show Tacoma FD that I told you to watch by the Super Trooper guys. There's an episode where one of them buys a big truck and he thinks it has great gas mileage

because the other guy keeps filling it with gas every night so that he thinks that he's not losing it to gas. That's like when he's like in like the trial and when he finally buys it, he realizes it gets like four miles a gallon or something hilarious and it's funny. So yeah, so this is, that's who they are.

They're keeping up appearances and it sucks and it's very tense because they actually don't have the money that they're pretending to have. have. And then, speaking of Jack the Ripper, one of the people who I didn't even, wasn't even mentioned in my episode, but who is accused of or potentially to be Jack the Ripper is James Mabrick, our victim in this story. This is because later, someone in Liverpool produced like a diary, and in that diary, it was like, I'm James Mabrick. I'm Jack the Ripper, essentially. And then they like tested it and like, it's not, it's not that. There's another thing with like maybe a pocket watch

to belong to him and then maybe next to one of the murders there was an F and an M on the walls. I thought that might be about his wife Florence, like her initials. But that's all just like beyond speculative. And like he's not Jack the Ripper. But he's kind of a weirdo, which is why he was accused to be Jack the Ripper, you know? Yeah, being a weirdo will get you in a lot of trouble. Yeah. So he's also accused, I think maybe is the wrong word, but like speculated to also maybe have been.

Because, as I'll tell you, James, our victim, traveled a lot. But in a few years before Jack the Ripper, in Austin, where you are, there was an axe murderer called the Servant Girl Annihilator who axed eight girls in Austin. They did not about that. So they speculated that that could have been James as well. But I don't think he was either of those people. But, again, also every man was like super creepy then. Right. Everyone had a mustache.

I went over their mouth. You know what I mean? I hate it. Okay, so that's the time that we're in. England, kind of awful. And then specifically, we're in Liverpool, which is a port town in like the northwest dish of England. It's quite far from London. Today, if you want to go from London to Liverpool, it's a five-hour bus ride or two hours on the train.

So it's not like the capital, but it's a big port city. and it's also at this point in 1880s a big cotton trading area. So they trade a lot with the United States, specifically in cotton. And so much so that Liverpool joined the Confederacy side during the U.S. Civil War. They can do that. Well, yeah, they put out a letter. They were like, England may be for the union, but we really love this cotton. You guys are producing cheaply.

So good luck. Do they send soldiers? No, but they like announced that they were like for them. So it was like a meaningless. It was basically somebody just like writing like an op-ed, a letter to the editor. Yes, of war. Right. Exactly.

So James is in the cotton trade and he travels and sells cotton. There's probably more involved in that, but like that's the job. He's a cotton businessman. Other things that happen to be fashionable during this time. So there's cotton trade is happening. one thing that is kind of common is American women marrying European men. And then so like there's like articles and things where like, of course, like half the men are mad about it. They're like, well, she deserves what happens to her.

She goes over there and, you know, marries a European man. Like, cool. It could be cool. You get to go to Europe. You get to marry a rich older guy and have maids. Like that doesn't sound bad. Like, I'm not mad at that. But then the downside is a lot of these marriages happen.

in like two weeks, which isn't great, because you never know who you're married. You know? Yeah. We've had some experience on that front. Yeah. So you do, you do want to know someone a little bit before you get married. I would advise to get to know someone before you marry them. I don't know. But that's me.

Bless and Mard, Taylor. So, you know, that's something that's happening. And that's what's happening around this time. So now we have our couple, again, James and Florence. So James Maybrick was born on October 24th, 1830. again he became a cotton trader and traveled a lot in 1874 he was in Virginia doing work stuff and he got malaria and was treated with arsenic and boy does James love arsenic he loves these like potions and tinctures and like I get it I love that too

like I have this little thing here this is like a little bottle you know what's in here it's olive oil. I use it on my cuticles, but it's cute as shit. It makes this noise. It has a little dropper. You know, like, I like this vibe. It's cute. It makes you feel a little bit witchy. And that's what James loved. He loves little potions, little tinctures, and that's what medicine is at this point.

You know, it's like... Arson get you high? Like, why would you like arsenic? I think it, like, dulls your senses. So, and it's like, it's not just arsenic. Like, his, he likes, you know, like handwashing is 20 years old. It's not like, you know, medicine is

is whatever, brand new at this time. And so it's not even, it's not just arsenic, but like his vibe is like literally a little arsenic keeps you healthy. It's good for my tummy. It's good for my complexion. It's not. It's like not good for you. So any little tonic that had like opium or lytocaine or any other poisons, like he, that's

kind of stuff that he vibed with. And that's kind of what was recommended by a lot of doctors at this point. Like they're probably still like bleeding people, you know. That was like my favorite scene from that Winchester. Winchester movie, remember that movie? Yeah, that movie's good, yeah. Yeah, when the doctor who was there to evaluate Miss Winchester was, like, in his room, and he was just, like, doing a bunch of laudum cocaine, and he was the doctor.

Yes, that's exactly what James is doing. He's doing so many drugs, and he's like, I feel better, because, like, sure you feel better when you're, like, super high, and then you feel bad because, like, you're poisoning yourself. And, like, I think I say this again, but you should, even today, you shouldn't have a description from one doctor and one from another doctor and not tell the other ones about it. You know? Yeah, you will do that.

At least like Google what those two things are together, you know, but James is going to like random doctors and getting random tinctures of like random stuff. So that's not great. But I, oh, let me tell you what arsenic is. Because I don't know what it is. It's an element. It's on the periodic table as AS. Its atomic number is 33.

As atomic mass is 74.92. I don't know what that means, but that's exciting. it's a metalloid, which means it's both metal and non-metal. I wrote like me. And it's solid at room temperature, and it's used for manufacturing somehow. So they use it when making lasers and things that can do something that I don't understand, but that's what it is. And it also used like a little, in this time, it's used a little bit in, obviously,

poisons for like rats. and but it's also used in like medicine but at a very very small level like in some ways it's like this will purge you of your bile you know you're like well yeah I threw up because they just took a bunch of poison yeah this was in the era when they were like drinking mercury for health reasons you sure he drank mercury too like I'm sure that's on his list of things that he drank so james is a bachelor but he's a lot of girlfriends he spends his time between Liverpool and virginia he has a common law wife named sarah anne

I think she, I'm not sure if she was in Liverpool or Virginia, but there also is a rumor that she had five of his children. So, like, he's definitely like, not alone. He's like sleeping around. So it's 1880 and James is on a ship to England from the U.S. He's 42 years old and he meets a girl named Florence. She's 17. So he's a lot older. Yeah.

So Florence Elizabeth Chandler Maybrook was born on September 3rd, 1862 in Mobile, Alabama. Her dad was a banker who died before she was born. And her mom married three times. Her third husband is a German baron that she married in 1872. So she spent a lot of time in Europe. Her mom was pretty well off with this minor royalty guy from Germany. And her mom lived in Europe. In Florence's book, she talks about her lineage being from like, you know,

Americans who have been there for a very long time. And also says that she's distantly related to Salmon Chase, who is a man who was on Abraham Lincoln's cabinet. And he's arguably the worst person in Abe Lincoln's cabinet if you've read a team of rivals, but it's so cool that she's like somehow related to him. So she meets James on his boat. And of course, again, it's very like romantic. You're like, cool, older man.

And I think it's a little bit of a case where they both assumed the other person was richer than they were. Great, great situation I enter into. which is a great start to any of the story. Nothing's going to go wrong there. Yeah. So, because she's with her mom and her mom's a baroness,

you know, like all these things. So they both think the other ones richer than they are, but they, you know, meet on this boat. It's romantic. And they decided to get married.

And they marry a year later. And they rent a house in a suburb of Liverpool. So Flo has gone from being like a young debutante woman in the United States to living in like a big house that she knows they can't afford with the couple, a couple maids and like servants in a suburb of Liverpool. So she's super isolated from like everybody else.

You know? He knows they can't afford it because she knows this guy has no money or because she knows that he expects her to have money. She knows by this time that he doesn't have as much money as he said. He did because he does stuff like gets mad at her for spending money. She also like buys a bunch of stupid stuff. She gambles

like she isn't good with money either. And like she says things like we should rent a smaller house and he's like we absolutely can't we have to run this mansion you know because we need to show people that we have as money that we don't have um so she's alone a lot they have two kids james um who's born in 1882 and gladys who is born in 1886 um James has a couple of brothers there's one older brother or two they're both younger one's matthew one's edwin um I think edwin is like significantly younger than james and him and florence hang out often enough that it's a rumor that like

they have an affair, but I'm not sure if they did or not. But either way, like, I feel like you would be close to someone closer your age. Right. You know? So, again, she knows about his affairs. He has many affairs, and she knows about them. So she knows this is happening, like, while she's kind of, like, stuck in the house. I wrote, what are the misters that says, at least five of his kids, like, calm down.

What is that we do? So in 1887, she's like, okay, I've had enough. I don't want to be in this marriage anymore. It's not working out for like a multitude of reasons. She has an affair probably with a businessman named Alfred Briarly. And they write letters back and forth. But Alfred's a little bit like, get me out of here. And he's like, you know what?

I'm going to leave. And he like leaves and goes to Europe for like a year. Just like I don't want to be a part of this problem anymore. So Florence is able to afford a couple things that her husband doesn't know about because she can get money from her mom because her mom does have a bit of money. So she's able to get money from her mom because she's like, she's, Florence is gambling like she's betting on horses over telegraph, which is fun and bad when you, you got, you got a real problem.

You got a real gambling problem. I mean, this is, this is the thing that the less friction there is. Yeah. The more people do it, which means the more friction there is, you really want to be doing this thing. Yeah, yeah. so she's so she but she gets some money from her mom and she takes a trip to london to try to get a lawyer to get a divorce and like it's hard for women to get divorces like in this time and like in a lot of places still and she goes to London for a few days comes back james is pissed he like knows that she went to like do something but he doesn't know what she did so he puts an ad in the paper that was like did anyone see my wife doing something weird give me a call which is hilarious um what she was doing was meeting with lawyers um so um so um they get in a fight when she gets home.

He definitely punches her and gives her a black eye. That's the only recorded time of physical abuse, but that can't be the only time if it happened once, it probably happened before then. The cook and the nurse are there during this fight, and they bring her back in the house when he tries to kick her out in the middle of the night. And eventually, like, she decides to stay,

even though he changes his will, that she's not going to get any money when he dies. It'll go to the kids. And she'll get his monthly pension from his work, which is a little bit, but not everything that could be given to her after he dies if he liquidated everything. So there's a lot going on, but they reconcile. They both remove their divorce petitions and then things settle down.

So it's like 1888 and they're back to the status quo, which is like still him with his girlfriends and all those things. But back to normal. James is only 50, by the way. But he's like, seems much older because she's, she still seems so young and like all those things. I mean, they were also probably older. Timeline-wise, that's probably older.

It's an 1889-50, which is a rough 50. Which is a rough 50. That's like a rough 50. Yeah. So it's April 1889. And Florence is planning to go to a fancy ball with James's brother Edwin because she likes them as their friends, whatever. They're going to go and she's excited about that because she's still very young and

wants to go out. The nurse, their nurses, named Alice Yap and so she's the one who's like taking care of the kids like that's what I mean by nurse and like a nanny and she hates Florence like they do not get along and the the nanny tells one of the brothers of James that you know she's going out with his other brother and that brother gets mad and everyone's kind of mad each other and suspicious of each other all those things and while that's going on james is getting physically very unwell he has a doctor named dr fowler who has a thing called like to talk to speak to like tinctures and such called fowler solution that was basically arsenic

and lavender and he said it could cure everything by making you throw up which is like not not true and not science and there are many doctors in and out and some of them are new to james so like a new doctor goes in and he's like bro what is this you know because like next to his bed is a hundred little bottles you know it's like if you you know saw a bunch of those like prescription bottles in someone's house, you'd be like, dude, like, stop doing this, you know. Or modern times in Austin, it would be someone who has a subscription to yoga, Pilates, CrossFit, a cold tank, and a sauna. Yeah.

Yeah, but calm down. Yes, it's fine. Take it down. Take it down. So, self-medicating a ton, and the doctors can see this. Again, you shouldn't have two doctors who don't talk to each other or you don't, like, cross-reference medication. And in Florence's book that I read, like the second half was just evidence that says that like James is doing this to himself and that he was like, you know, obsessed with taking these

medications and like, you know, this one makes me happy. This one makes me sad. This one makes you throw up. This one makes my legs feel numb. You know, like he's doing all these different things. But there is a thing that never went to court. But there's a man named Mr. Blake who was doing experiments with arsenic trying to make a cotton alternative out of like plant fibers and arsenic. It didn't work, but he had a bunch of leftover arsenic. And so in February 1889,

he says that James asked him for it. He said, can I have this? I love arsenic. It's my faith. You have an extra. Can I have it? And Mr. Blake was like, okay, like that's weird, but you can totally have it. And he gives it to him. Then, as you'll see, James starts to get worse and worse and worse. And by the time to the point where James passes away, Mr. Blake's son is lost at sea.

So Mr. Blake is consumed with his son being lost at sea. So any evidence he could have given during any sort of trial, he doesn't give because he's busy. So like the court never knows that that happens. But to me that means James is in possession of a lot of arsenic and he's secretly taking it because that's kind of what he does. It's like he takes it and says he didn't and it kind of does again. So it's getting worse.

He overdosed on something. Wikipedia said that Florence gave him a double dose of strychnine, but like I didn't see that anywhere else. So I don't know if that's true. He like overdosed in some way and he's bedridden. His arms are his leg, he can't walk, he can't sleep, he can't stand. He wants powders and droplets. He can't eat. And this is one of the things that he does eat is the Valentine meat juice, which is, I think, just bone broth.

So it eats like meat juice and milk, which is no other. I don't want that at all. But like maybe you want chicken soup. like I'd get the bra thing, but it's the word meat juice I don't love. So because Florence is administering the meat juice to James with the two, like with the maid and the nurse, they think that she put extra arsenic in the meat juice and that's made him even sicker. But there are meat juice bottles everywhere.

I'm sure they're not being refrigerated any way she perform, you know, and there's other bottles everywhere. And the maids will say things like, they saw Florence pouring. a smaller bottle into a larger bottle. She's like, well, I was just getting the last of the mix out, mixing it with water, or a thing smelled like almonds, which I don't know if is true, but we know that's what arsenic smells like from

criminal shows. I don't know. We know that. Hold on. You're saying this is though. Did they know that you was... Do they know that arsenic killed him? Later, they're going to say arsenic killed him. So at this time, people knew that arsenic was poison.

Yes. But people still took a little bit of it at a time. Okay. Like anything is poison if you take too much of it. I know, but that's poison. It's like if I were to eat plutonium, like a little bit of it doesn't really matter. It's going to kill me, right? Yeah, but you can have a little bit of arsenic and not die.

Okay, we'll test that theory. We'll see if we'll see if we record next week. Are you taking our arsenic right now? I'm certainly not. no but i'm gonna i'm gonna figure out how much money you take what the what the safe amount is so those things like feel feels suspicious we know arsenic is involved is in the house like we know they have it and like however whether james has it a hoarder somewhere or whatever and then another thing is i remember how florence was going to go to that ball with edwin

she wants to go to this party and she wants to look really pretty so she there's this face wash that she really likes but it's expensive and guess what the face wash has in it plenty of arsnexonics plenty of arsenic. So she doesn't want to buy it, but she wants to wash her face with this stuff to make her look, I don't know, prettier. And so she soaks fly papers, which have arsenic on them,

apparently to kill flies, and water to seep out the arsenic for her face wash. Like, that's insane. That's also happening at the same time while her husband is sick, and he's taking medications that are prescribed and not prescribed and asking for things, and there's a meat juice and all this stuff is happening around the house.

And there's a bowl of flypaper. Isn't she like 22 years old at this point? Yeah, she's not. She's like a young woman. Yeah. So James dies on May 11th, 1889. I think he died because he was taking too many drugs and too many weird-ass things. And he was like putting this together and just like ruined his body.

I do not think he was murdered. I think he was like, if anything, he was murdered by like being a product of his time, but not like intentionally. He probably had some like anxiety. you know, that made him do these things. But because of all the arsenic that was in the house and the fly papers and the almost divorce and all the affairs and the money issues and all these things, his brothers say he was murdered by Florence. She definitely killed him. So they accused her of murder and she's arrested. They do, like they immediately, they lock her in her room and they like, you can't see him.

You can't do anything. You can't see your kids. So she stays there until they do an autopsy on James. They do find arsenic in his body, but we're talking like a percentage of a gram, like very small amount of arsenic, not enough to kill someone. But like a little bit,

which we would expect because we know that it's in the medicines that he was taking. But it doesn't even sound like scientifically he died of like just an overdose of arsenic. Like it was just, he died of like a whole bunch of different things that is never really conclusive so but because they find that tiny bit of arsenic despite the fact that we know he was taking arsenic on his own they arrest her and they take her they take her away florence will never see her children again after this so her husband's dead they take her to jail of her her kids are like little when this happens they're like three

and six and james they get adopted by like an aunt James Jr., her son becomes an engineer, and when he's 29, he dies because he mistakes a glass of cyanide for a glass of water. Isn't that sound insane? Yeah, there's a lot of common threads here.

I don't know what to do with that, but that's the thing. Her daughter Gladys lives until 1971, so, but she never saw her again. So they take Florence to jail, and there was a speedy trial. Basically, what the prosecution says is, like, she thought he was going to divorced her. She was sick of the affairs. She wanted him gone. And I wrote, that's her.

I want him gone too. I don't like him. But I think that's more of his personality than like anything. You know, he just kind of sucked. So during the trial, her lawyers are super confident because they're like he wasn't A, he like wasn't killed by arsenic poisoning. Like he was killed because he was sick and was taking

Is it arsenic cumulative though? Isn't it like if you're testing what's in your gut? that's a good question it could be because that's the thing when you were when I was trying to be funny about like take a little bit of it I thought the reason why it's bad is the same reason why chocolate's bad

for dogs if you have a little bit of chocolate if they have a little bit of chocolate it's not bad but the problem is they can never process out the toxins within it and so every time you have a little more it just adds adds and eventually it gets to a tipping point he had so little in his system yeah

that's what I'm wondering if like that is something you have to, like, test with, like, modern technology to determine what's in his actual system versus what's in the stomach. That's a great point. Like, imagine what we would know if it was now, you know? Because, like, they, like, it was, like, a man with his bare hands taking out his intestines and, like, looking for arsenic. I don't know. Yeah, and he probably also had, like, another bucket of guts next to that that he probably mixed and mingled. He's, like, eating sandwich.

Like, I don't know. There's so many things that, like, could be happening with the same thing. So, yeah, good point. I don't know. But they're saying that he died of arsenic poisoning in whatever way. But what was in his gut was not enough to kill him. Fair enough. According to their, however they calculated that, you know.

So the jury, there's a couple issues. So the jury, of course, is all men who just saw a young woman with an old husband. So they were suspicious of her. The judge himself is Judge James Fitzjames Stephen. Wow. That is a name. James Fitzjeeves James Stephen. a lot of first season there. And he's not well. So he will die and retire, retire and die,

like right after this trial. And he was very famous in his lifetime as like a very good judge, all these things. But he basically had dementia by this point. And he was like talking a bunch of weird shit about Florence in front of the jury. And like that made the jury definitely like sway towards her being guilty. They charge they, the jury said she was guilty. They charged her to death. They deliberated for 38 minutes. So it was like super fast. And everybody, was shocked because they were like, no one thought that she was going to get convicted at all. She says, quote, my lord, everything has been against me. I am not guilty of this crime.

So she gets sent to jail to be hanged. But there's a lot of people on her side. She's kind of like on death row and, you know, dealing with all of that. She's alone, obviously, like, and doesn't have like any, like, support. Doesn't know what's going on. And the day before she's supposed to be executed, they tell her that instead it's been changed to life in prison. It also could be because, like, a lot of people, both in America and in the UK, were, like, writing letters being, like, this trial wasn't fair. The judge, like, wasn't

well. Evidence isn't there. All of those things, like, in her, on her behalf. So she, like, one of the people who wrote on her behalf, like, the vice president of the United States at the time, like, a lot of people were, like, this needs to be retried at the very least. So they changed her sentence from death to life. And life means 20 years in, in this case. And you can get time off with, like, good behavior. Like every year, you get a certain number of months off if you don't, like, do a certain number of things bad, all of that. So her first nine months, she's in solitary confinement. And she makes some really great points that I know that this is like 1800s England and like things are very different. But I also feel like a lot of it, like the prison system itself, like a lot of

it is like, you know, meant to dehumanize you and like how rough. How rough, it is for solitary confinement because like it takes away your ability to communicate with anybody because you like barely use any words you know and you like are living this like monotonous same day to day often with like out light and like her the way it was for her is she had like to wake up at a certain time and then all day long she had to she just had to work she had to sew one shirt a day and if she didn't do it then like she would be in trouble for like not doing it so she spent you know 23 hours in her cell, a little bit of time in like the chapel because she was super religious and able to go to chapel and she speaks to like her faith helping her through all this a lot

in her book. But then also like an hour outside where they have to like they get to walk around like a little, you know, like concrete courtyard and they have to do it no matter what. So even if it's like raining, which is raining all the time because you're in England, they still have to walk outside in the rain for an hour a day. So like they also are sick all the time. just like stuff like that. Yeah. It's terrible. She,

also like the cell doesn't have any heating until her time she was there. Of course. Of course. Yeah. So she did that for nine months that she went to a working prison where she worked in a kitchen

until she like physically couldn't do it anymore. She was like 100 pounds when she's like small, you know, and she's trying to do all these things. Also, another thing that she talks about that I think is probably still relevant is the pressure of constantly being

watched and monitored. And like now, obviously there's like cameras that are seriously like watching and monitoring everyone, not even if you're in prison, but how like stressful that is not to have like a moment of like where you're not being monitored. She met a lot of like lifelong criminals who had horrible circumstances. She, you know, befriended people who, you know, died by suicide while they were in prison because it was just like too hard for them. Florence was a member of what they called the star class.

So she had like a red star on her like prison uniform because she'd only committed one thing. So like some people were like habitually in there, but she was like she did the one thing. And then she was, you know, in there. They knew that. She got treated a little bit differently. Her mother visited her whenever she could, but it was only like 15 minutes at a time, which was like really hard for both of them. They can only get letters every few months, which she also speaks to that being like psychologically really difficult.

Not only because like you want to talk to your friends. the family, but also like if someone sends you a letter with bad news, you don't know, you don't know what the outcome is for a long time. He's living in the anxiety of it. Yeah. Yeah. And how hard that is. She says basically in her book, this happened to me because of 12 ignorant men because

like the jury just like accused her and she doesn't feel that evidence was there. She also brings up other cases of like in people going to prison for things that they didn't commit. And there's one guy, his name is Alfred Beck. He moved to the UK. I think from Norway, and he was convicted twice of crimes that another person who looked like him committed. And, like, so Alfred Beck is trying to live his life and this dude that looks like him. And he does.

There's pictures on Wikipedia. But this dude that looks like him just keeps committing crimes. And poor Alfred keeps getting arrested for them. Yeah, that's kind of stuck. I think that happened to my husband in junior high, there was like another one and the other one was bad. Evil one. Yeah, and he would get in trouble for like evil ones wrongdoings. So eventually Alfred Beck does.

get 500 pounds in a pardon, but like sucks, excuse in jail for a while. So another thing, I think the final thing about her, or I guess another thing about her being in prison that I know I yell about people, not reading enough these days, but like I know that you don't read a lot, but I also know that you can read, like you have the mental ability to read. But there are people who don't and cannot, you know,

and that's like on the school system. on like the, you know, having a childhood or not. It's on like Victorian England, but it's on now, like people, maybe people can't, you know, and like that made me feel really sad because like, yes, you can't read all day. She's like, you can't read all day. Like they can't, you can read, but you can read like an hour a day and like feel a little bit, a little bit of like respite from like the day to day, but a lot of people couldn't and probably still the case.

Like people can't, which I haven't thought about and it's very sad. so she loves his life in prison people are asking for her relief she's doing hard labor and then one day they're like okay you've done enough it's been 14 years and we are you are now going to be free and so she goes to a convent for a couple months to like start assimilating back to life like a little bit more like you have a little more autonomy and then she moves back to the United States she gets her U.S. citizenship back because the law I don't know I isn't look it up but the law then was like if you married someone from England, you became an English citizen, but if they died, you can go back home and go and be a U.S. citizen again. She was back to the U.S. and she does

lecture on prison reform, which I totally got from her book. I thought it was like really like interesting and helpful, even though it's like over 100 years ago. I saw a lot of it was cool. A lot of it's about like, you know, humanizing people, stopping the monotony and like, you know, helping people, you know, become better people while they're there. Eventually, she stopped doing that and ended up being pretty poor. She lived alone in Connecticut, and by all accounts, when she passed away at the age of 79 in October 23rd, 1941, she was pretty much penniless. And she's buried in Connecticut next to one of her friends, because, again, she never saw her kids again after that. I don't know you could be poor and live in Connecticut.

I thought Connecticut was one of those 40-20 rich states. Remember that person we know who said he grew up in the bad part of Greenwich, Connecticut? Yes. Girl, there's no bad part of Greenwich, Connecticut. So I'm trying to act like you aren't rich. Give me a freaking break. You definitely looked like the kind of person who would say that as well. Bad part of Greenwich, Connecticut.

Oh, so funny. But yeah, that's it. I don't think she did it. I think he just happened to die and they just wanted to accuse her and put her in jail. but it is interesting that because of this, we know who they are. I know about their lives. You know, I said I was talking about that before.

Like, she could have just been a young woman married to an old man and we never would know her name, but then this scandal happened, and so now we know about her. Yeah, you kind of want that, though. Like, you want a remarkable life, but you don't want to... She has a Wikipedia page. I don't have one.

I'll write one for you. Oh, thank you. That's so nice. But under, like, the personal life piece, I'll say, olive oil on Facebook. finger nails. Yeah, thank you. Oh, thank you for remembering that 10 minutes ago. Thank you.

And I believe that you have the ability to read and write, so I think you could write it for me. I actually read and write every moment of every waking, every day. Like, you kind of have to. We're just like staring at a screen and to avoid of having to read and write. Right. It's more so just like, I'm not as good about. like what I'm not good is

focus attention for prolonged periods of time because our life and our work does not has trained us out of that being a thing. Absolutely. So. Yeah. But those are the fun story. How about

how about it? How did you discover it? I think I was like I'm in the mood for a Victorian murder. I don't know. I was listening to our Axeman episode. And that one is like super fun. And he's also someone who was like maybe Jack the Ripper you know, I love that. Like, who knows who it was if it was one person or, you know, more than one. But listen to that episode of ours because we talk about the victims a lot.

And I think it's really interesting, it's fun and scary. Very fun. Well, thank you for sharing. Do we have anything else to report out? I do. We have some emails from my friend Shannon who had some suggestions. She specifically was asking for more engineering disasters when we have time because she finds it very fun.

I also find that. It was incredibly fun. Good call. We will do more of those. I think I have one that I want to do. I think I want to do it. I think I have a good engineering disaster that I want to do next. So I'm excited.

All right. Maybe we'll double up next time. Yeah. That's it. But you too can email us, Doob tofellPod at gmail.com. Find us on Facebook, Instagram, all of the things,

Dobedafel pod. And tell your friends, please. Leave us some Apple stars, wherever you listen to your podcasts. My kids just got a computer and I downloaded pocketcasts to their computer because they're listening to this kids one called Six Minute Podcasts and it's like a kid's like adventure story and Miles Loves it. It's real cute. It's real fun. I do pocketcast too. That's my go-to. I know. You told me about it. Yeah.

That's why I do it. I paid them $10 one time for a premium subscription and then like four years later I wrote to them and said, hey, can I cancel my subscription? I don't want to be charged to $10 anymore. That was a one-time fee. You haven't been charged $10. Boy, I did the same thing, too, because they were like, you can sign it for $10 and you get it for life. And I said, yes. Yeah. Sweet.

Well, thank you for sharing again. Write to us to Do MinifelPod at gmol.com or false on the social with Dumafell pod. And we look forward to hearing from you soon. Tell me if you're a bone broth person. I'd like to hear more about that. I had bone marrow last night. It was so good. I know.

the other day. It's so... Oh, my God. It's beautiful. Do you have Osabuco or something else? Would you have like just the bone marrow? I don't know what the words you just said were. What's about Buka sabaka?

Osabuka is like, it's like a meat around a bone. And then like the bone is cut and then you take the bone marrow. It's like a whole, it's like a dish. No, no, no. It's like a, it was just a half. And it was so... I got to figure this place like, Sirwin Austin. That was probably the best single food I've ever had in my life.

The way it was prepared and everything. Anyway, sorry, we're wrapping up. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Taylor.