Doomed to Fail - Ep 4 - Part 1: Tragedy in Manchester - the murder of Kelly Anne Bates

Episode Date: October 6, 2023

Today, we are re-releasing the horrible story of the the murder of Kelly Anne Bates - We want to deliver all the warnings - Kelly Anne was a child, and she was murdered in a way that is just unimaginable. If you are angry after this episode, you 100% should be; it's a crime across the pond that rocked Manchester to its core.If you or someone you know needs help in a domestic violence situation -National Domestic Violence Hotline (remember internet history cannot be completely erased, press escape twice to leave the website quickly - or use the hotline phone number below)1-800-799-7233Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doomedtofailpod/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/doomedtofailpod  Youtube:  https://www.youtube.com/@doomedtofailpod TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@doomed.to.fail.pod Email: [e-mail]  Join our Founders Club on Patreon to get ad-free episodes for life! patreon.com/DoomedtoFailPodWe would love to hear from you! Please follow along! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doomedtofailpod/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/doomedtofailpod  Youtube:  https://www.youtube.com/@doomedtofailpod TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@doomed.to.fail.pod Email: [e-mail] 

Hi, Taylor from Dune to Fail here. Today we are re-releasing episode four, part one, Kelly Ann Bates. Just so you know, this does involve a crime against the child, and it is pretty upsetting. So I just wanted you to know that before you listen. And also, just FYI, what we're doing is we are re-releasing all of our earlier episodes in half episodes, because we used to do two stories at a time instead of releasing Monday and Wednesday. Hope that makes sense. You could always go back and listen to them.

So episodes 1 through 26 or so. are available everywhere that's in a podcast. You can listen to the long ones or you can wait for every release. Totally up to you. So without further... The matter of the people of the state of California versus Hortthall James Simpson,

case number B.A.019. And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country. Welcome to Doom to Fail with a point. podcast where we tell you shit. Keep it in. Keep it in.

Welcome to Doe to Fail, the podcast where we are going to call ourselves a comedy show, but we're probably going to make you cry and gross out on this episode in particular. I'm Fars, joined here by Taylor when co-host. Hi, Taylor. Hello. Good morning. Good morning. And we are on to our fourth episode.

We launched last week, which was absolutely fan. fantastic. Thank you to everybody who has been listening and commenting and giving feedback and everything else. It's been absolutely tremendous. We're up to the three digits in terms of listeners. So it's a slow roll, but we're getting there. Oh, my gosh, I'm far as I'm so excited. I think that I've gotten such good feedback from people. So really excited for everyone who's listened. I know it's hard to listen to a new podcast and get used to the hosts and all that stuff. So super happy. I wrote down some notes that I am. Sorry. for all the ums which i just said an um and i'm so sorry because there's so many especially episode two

also in episode two says south korea when i met north korea and i want to die and i'm mad at you for not telling me that i was wrong so i need you to be more on top of me and also want to note that we're not on apple podcast yet is that still the case we are now we are now sweet so we're getting there things are coming together and then i also want to talk about the dude from my past who listen to the first one and tried to get me to convert to Christianity. That was a ridiculous exchange that you sent me. He said, among other things, this man who's been hitting on me my whole, for like the past 15 years, this married man was like, you should read the Bible before you review it, like saying

that like, you know, I'm being a jerk for talking shit about, about it because I haven't read it. And he suggested an app where I could go like verse by verse. And I was like, there's like 200 fantasy books I want to read before I'll consider it the Bible. I'm 30 pages into Dune and I have to reread the Harry Potter series and pretend someone else wrote it. So I have a lot to do in life is short. So that's a hard note for me. Hard note. I hope he hears that your co-host and one of your closest friends, I was about to go get an upside-down pentagram tattoo like a week ago.

But I only did it because I literally went and got like this chest thing. done like three eight or four i just noticed that wow yeah i just got that done and was like maybe i should just chill out on the tattoos for like maybe a few days um but upside down pedigram tattoo is coming i already got a place i already know the artist and we are not reading the bible we're doing that instead yeah i'm coming back to austin and getting a match one so oh yeah that's okay cool well yeah thank you to everyone please so much thank you your feedback all the good and taylor do you want to maybe kick us off with what we're drinking today? Yes.

So our non-alcoholic drink this morning is the physical act of hiding the key to your husband's liquor cabinet during prohibition. So just it's prohibition. You don't want your husband to be drinking, so you're hiding the key to the liquor cabinet. And then our alcoholic drink is a beer called Boddingtons from a brewery in Manchester, and you are going to talk about why we're going across the bond. I'll let you start. And we're going to start off with the true crime side of it.

Taylor, this is a really bad story. No. That's why I was thinking to myself that we can only barely even refer to ourselves as a comedy podcast at this point because I'm going to go into the details of what's going on here. So I'm going to start at the top by saying this kind of thing should trigger everybody obvious. But I know that there are some folks who have gone through domestic violence, their personal life. And if it hits particularly hard for you, then I would be. advocate skipping ahead to your section, Taylor,

and just skipping mine entirely this week because it's going to get pretty bad. With that, the slimmer out of the way, let's start by going to the subject of today's episode. The two parties to this were Kellyanne Bates and James Patterson Smith. Just to tell you the flavor of what we're getting into, I only heard of this story through our mutually favorite podcast,

last podcast on the left. Shout out to those guys. During their episode, worst ways to die. That's how this story was surfaced. So, again, disclaimer, that's what we're getting into today. It doesn't ring any bells. Those names are ring any bells.

Okay. It'll be fresh for you then. So the story takes place in Manchester, England, which is actually where Boddington is brood. So there you have it. James, we're going to start off with James, the antagonist of the story, who's actually a

teetotaler, so he wouldn't have had Bonnington's anyways. It's a shame because It's a great, great beer, if you can find it. James was a complete, utter piece of shit from the very beginning. He was born in 1947, and the events we're describing here transpired in 1996. So remember that detail. Okay. He would have been around 49 years old.

I'm going to be harping on age a lot. Okay. I feel like after the first episode, I was maybe a little bit agous, and I'm going to be even more ageous during this episode. My sister said, if I was not going to get away with that shit, if you guys get famous. So we were laughing about it. continue i know i'm i'm i've i've we have a few more months of doing this before i have to shape up there james's history with women can only be described as violent every documented

relationship we had he was physically abusive he was not surprisingly divorced the grounds of which were domestic violence and that marriage lasted for 10 years which really goes to show that it can be incredibly difficult for people to leave relationships that are abusive absolutely yeah um yeah I can't imagine with this woman. And given what we're going to learn about James throughout the years, I can only imagine that she experienced what the people that we are about to describe also experienced.

I also know as far as that the most dangerous time to leave a relationship, like the most dangerous time in an abusive relationship is when you're trying to leave. So it makes it even harder, you know, for people to leave because at that point, you know, that's when the

violence really escalates. So. Yeah. We are actually going to go into the psychology of that a little bit later because domestic violence plays such a massive part of this. So that marriage ends. And James has a tendency after that divorce to date much younger than is probably, not probably, is acceptable. The divorce was in 1980. So he would have been 33.

Just doing the math on when he was born. He would have been 33 years old. Again, I'm harping on his age because for me, this is a massive, massive red, flag. I get that most men tend to veer younger in their dating lives, but I think a 10 plus year age gap in a couple when the man is already in his 30s is telling of something. I'm not sure exactly what, but I think it is. Like I'm 38. I don't know a single Lizzo song. I watch movies like Dunkirk and other biopics. I don't like festivals or events where a ton of people are crammed in together. If I have to wait in the line, I'm usually out. So like 20-year-old me really

recognized 38 year old me so so if i ever tell you taylor that i'm dating a 20 year old i can only imagine it would be because one i'm having a midlife crisis or two for whatever reason i need an incredibly lopsided power dynamic in a relationship yeah i think it's it's definitely the power dynamic and i think you're right like i have nothing in common with like a 24 year olds so i can't imagine you know having going out of date with 24 year olds and not i mean not saying that all 24-year-olds like that, but I feel like for the most part, and just, you know, it's a big difference, especially your 20s, because your 20s is such a volatile time.

At this, at my age, I've gone out with several people in their late, late 20s, like 28, 29. And even that feels like a insurmountable gap in terms of like where, what, what things I think about versus what they, it's just not, I don't know, if it works for you, it works for you. But in this case, it definitely does not work. We're going to discuss it. I'm going to use this conversation in my second podcast, dating Fars in Austin, where I speak

to all the women that you dated. So stay tuned for that. That will be very, very, very, everybody's excited about that. So going back to James. Shortly after his divorce, he begins dating a 20-year-old named Tina Watson. She gets pregnant with his child. And she is quoted later on discussing the. abuse. She says, and this is a direct quote. At first, it was now and again, referring to the

abuse, just a little tap. But in the end, it was every day. He would smack me in the face or hit me over the head with an ashtray. He would kick me in the legs or between the legs. Not great stuff. Tina would eventually get out of that relationship. We don't know much about her whereabouts thereafter or the kid, hopefully, and presumably her and the kid recover and everybody was happy and healthy thereafter. The next relationship that started right after Tina in 1982 was with Wendy Motter's head. Taylor, she was 15 years old. No. Well, I think that that was definitely a sliding slippery slope that he was on. That's that's a hard no. That one's absolutely wrong. That's not just our opinion. That's an absolute no. Yeah. I don't know how we don't have much details in terms

of how this relationship came to be. All we know, in one abuse, he said he came out in the research of this, that he essentially drowned her at one point. Before the relationship ended, that he, that's going to be a pattern. For some reason, he just really likes to drown women. It's a continuous piece of this, it happened with another relationship that he had, too, and the one that we're going to talk about here ultimately, that's actually what happened to her as well.

if you look up pictures of him he actually looks very similar to David Turpin like he's got the same mop hair that David has and the horrible horrible skin he's also a teetotaler and he didn't smoke which good for him but in the 1980s I assumed that made him very unusual because I think cigarettes were a health item weren't they? I think by the 80s

people were kind of starting to understand that maybe they were bad for you but in the 50s and 60s, yeah, 100%. Doctors would be like, I'm smoking while I'm giving you a surgery, you know. But I think maybe the 80s was starting to tear out, but still, I think it was pretty popular. Like, you could smoke at office buildings in America until the late 90s. So I think that it was probably still pretty popular and smoking is delicious and awesome. Unfortunately, that is also true. And who knows what was going on in Manchester, England, whether they, you know, I would have, I don't know, maybe they're ahead of us,

maybe they're not. But also, look, I understand if you're sober because you have a drinking problem. But this is Manchester in the 1980s. I can imagine the pub life had to be awesome to be able to go out and like have a drink with friends and throw darts. I keep going back to that movie. I'm losing it. American Werewolf in London. Yes. Do you remember that the bar scene before he's attacked by the Werewolf? Yes. That's what I imagine these pubs are like that you can just go in and everybody knows you and it had to be it would have been fun but this guy didn't take part in that apparently he could have still gone you know i don't know 1980s if you order water at the bar that's kind of yeah i don't know it's an interesting thing to be like i'm in

england in the 80s and you know being a little bit different i also the one thing i was wondering is like how many men are in manchester is it too because i feel like these women can do better Yeah, I don't know. I actually don't even know what the population of Manchester is. But, I mean, I've heard of it. Like, we all heard of Manchester United. We know that it's a relatively populous, populous area. But anyways, fast forwarding a little bit, 11 years from Wendy to 1993.

So that relation with Wendy and the 15-year-old ended in 82. And now we're in 1993. And this begins the start of his interactions with Kelly and Bates. Taylor, Kelly is 14 years old when they meet. no and he's just getting older he's just getting older yeah yeah she was a babysitter

for a friend of james's and then babysitter is so dangerous yeah yeah the next two years of them knowing each other isn't actually very well documented all we know is that they struck up

enough of relationship over those two years so that when Kelly turned 16 she moved in with James at his house that's all we know she's 16 this puts him at 46 years old okay that's gross i'm going to look up age of consent in the uk age of consent in the uk i'm going to get arrested if we've even looked at this up yeah it's don't incognito um it's 16 yeah that makes sense i was wondering why they harped specifically on the point that she turned 16 and that was like a thing so i guess that makes

sense. Yeah. Yeah. Kelly actually seemed to have good parents in this situation. They tried to get her out of this. I don't recall what it was like being this age, but imagine the rebellious spirit of a 16-year-old. If your parents tell you not to do something, you probably try to do it more, right? Yeah, I'm sure. And we've talked about, you know, at 16, she could be dating this 46-year-old or she could be Emperor of Rome. It's a very up and, you know, whatever. Who knows? you're like when you're 16. No one can remember. I didn't put this in the outline, but there's a story I read where the way she was introduced, the mom was introduced to James was Kelly brought him to their house and they were in the kitchen and the mom walks in and she looks at this fucking 46 year old ghoul and she said that her first inclination was to grab the knife that was on the counter to her right and just start stabbing him. Oh, my God.

Yeah, which, look, that's a pretty extreme thing to think. But you're looking at your 16-year-old daughter in this near 50-year-old man. I mean, I can, you know, one can only imagine what would come of that. So at this time, Kelly's parents didn't explicitly know about the age difference. It was just based on looking at him, that they made the assumption that he was dramatically older. Right, he's clearly not another teen. Exactly, exactly.

you know Kelly's mom would say when she first met James this is a quote as soon as I saw Smith the hairs on the back of my neck went up I tried everything I could to get Kellyanne away from him you know she tried they really tried they really did their best to try and you know get this guy out of her life but it wouldn't it wouldn't happen Kelly would move out because of the nonstop arguments but moved back in with him in November of 1995 again I don't know the ins and outs of the domestic violence, but Kelly's behavior around this time seems like it was emblematic of someone enduring a lot. There's things that she was doing and there were indicators. So, for example, she would have visible bruises. She became very withdrawn, according to

people. She quit her job for seemingly no reason. And this to me is really the saddest part of reading stories about this. I just hate it when someone takes the light out of someone else's It's one of the worst things you could do to someone, just getting pleasure out of them being, someone that loves you, being sad. I don't know if that's fixable or not, but it really is one of the worst qualities of being in situations like this

is having someone take that away from you. Totally. And taking away the things that you enjoy until they control everything, like little bit at all. Yeah. Yeah. And also remember the power dynamic.

46 to 16. Yeah, I imagine he's like, if not the same age as her parents, that he's older as well. Yeah. Yeah, probably. Yeah, it's actually a really good point. In March of 1996, she apparently sent her parents a card for their anniversary and for a birthday, but the handwriting was that of James and not Kelly. Yeah.

Yeah, people at this point are increasingly worried about her well-being. Her brother tried visiting and was told by James that she wasn't home. she probably was because abusers just don't like their victims to be out of their sight and a neighbor came by and asked about her well-being and apparently

James told her to go stand in an upstairs window so that the neighbor could see her. Yeah. He was, he controlled her every movement. He controlled her everything. Yeah, it's her right. You know, I was thinking about this.

I could be dead for months so my neighbors would never know. I just don't have that kind of relationship with my neighbors. And so to me, it sounded like Kelly was an outgoing person that people cared about, you know? Right. And expected her to, like, be outside and say hi to people, but she wasn't. Yeah.

So one month after this, that was March of 96, in April of 1996, James goes to the police and tells them that he accidentally killed his girlfriend during an argument, claiming that she had drowned. And he had tried resuscitating her, but it didn't work. weird yeah yeah weird to why did you now I'm like why didn't go to the police now I'm like why didn't he just like leave or yeah yeah because he already like brushed off everybody else's concerns right he already brushed off the like the brother shows of oh she's not home right it is it is an unusual move although I although if I dwell on it a little bit I can I can imagine that as an abuser you probably think like she deserved that everybody's going to understand my point of view, you know? Mm-hmm. So, police go to the house, and they find Kelly naked in the bedroom. And this is where things get horrible. So, again, skip past, if you have a particular trigger for gratuitous violence,

police found her blood throughout the entire house. This wasn't a single explosion of violence like it was with Tony Tote last week. Mm-hmm. this was incredibly protracted and deliberate. It was a torture session, essentially. Yeah, and there's no blood involved in drowning. Yeah.

So, so, interesting fact, she actually died of drowning. Well, yeah, totally, but like, also, that's crazy, the blood everywhere. So obviously the other stuff was happening. It wasn't like, she accidentally drowned and nothing else had been wrong, right?

Yeah, no, that's 100%, 100%. Oh, God, poor baby. So during the last month of her life, so this is the March to April timeframe, she'd been kept bound to a radiator or to furniture by her hair or by ligature around her neck. Oh, my God. That's the thing. It's a month. That's why this is why it went on the list of worst ways to die. So I have all the injuries written down here.

And I almost don't even want to go through them because it's terrible. It's just awful to think anybody endured this. Basically a kid, a child endured this. The list of injuries for a body just sound like James was essentially possessed. Taylor, is it fair to say we don't really need to go into all the details here? Yeah, I think that's okay. You can look it up if you really are curious. Telly Ann Bates, the details are out there.

I don't really feel like it's going to help anyone to actually talk about this. But we are going to talk about one of the injuries because it's pertinent to, how long this experience dragged on for. The one injury that I will bring up is both of our eyes were gouged out. Oh, no. Oh. The reason that detail is relevant is because the pathologist,

a man named William Lawler, who examined her body after she was found, said that the eyes were removed, quote, not less than five days and not more. more than three weeks before her death. So this injury happens and she just lived for possibly weeks. Oh, my God. That's terrible.

That is so scary. That is so awful. Yeah. The pathologist also stated, quote, in my career, I've examined almost 600 victims of homicide, but I've never come across injuries so extensive. oh yeah that's awful she was obviously starved she was obviously malnourished and like i said before she did die of drowning yeah so despite all the other shit that james said he was telling the truth

about how she ultimately passed right she's just in so much pain i mean it's not like would you could fight i mean i feel like you wouldn't even fight back at that point right like i mean i don't think you would because all the i mean all the emotional abuse what she's going to do like he's a grown man and she's a child and if she's tied to something then I mean there's no I don't think fighting back is even like a thing that could be possible yeah yeah 100% and you know there was a part of this case that struck me especially during the trial portion of it again we don't have a ton of details about the inner workings of the relationship but I would imagine that gaslighting was a huge part of the relationship

because during the trial, James was quoted as saying she would put me through hell winding me up. Right. It's her fault. Like, it's her fault. Yeah. Absolutely not. And look, I intrinsically know what gaslighting is, but no matter what, I went and looked it up on Wikipedia anyways.

And the way it's described is manipulating someone so as to make them question their own reality, which I feel goes part and parcel with an abusive relationship. Have you seen, you know it comes from a movie? Have you seen the movie? I haven't seen the movie. And I don't know what the connection is to that movie.

Like it's literally, that's where the term comes from. It's called gaslight. It's about a husband who is trying to make his wife think she's crazy. So he keeps lowering the flame on the lights in the house because it was like before electricity and telling her that she's crazy because she thinks it's getting darker. That's the entire plot of the movie. Yeah. And that's where the term gaslighting comes from.

Wow. Okay. Once something new every day. So I kept reading more about gaslighting and found this part to be telling. This is a quote I'm going to read from the Wikipedia article on gaslighting. Those being gaslighted must learn that they don't need others to validate their reality and they need to gain self-reliance and confidence in defining their own reality. I think that's a tough part when you're in an abusive relationship,

especially with an insanely lopsided power dynamic, is how do you zoom out and gain the self-awareness and confidence that what you're experiencing is real versus what your partner is telling you. I mean, they'll be hard at any age, much less at 16. Absolutely and totally isolated as well. Yeah. She's trapped in his house. Yeah, 100%.

So back to the trial, during the trial, he said that Kelly had dared him to blind and stab her again. Bullshit, right? Yeah, bullshit. Or it's like, I don't know, like, I don't think it's like a fun dare like that's not how that's happening yeah a court psychiatrist that examined james said that he had um severe paranoid disorder with morbid jealousy and lived in a distorted reality again going

back to the gaslighting concept i went down another rabbit hole on what morbid jealousy means it's also called pathological jealousy delusional jealousy or my favorite and probably yours as well taylor Othello syndrome. So you had, yeah, you had mentioned this at the top, which was the most, I think you said, the most dangerous time for someone to leave an abusive relationship. Sorry, can you restate that? Yeah, the most dangerous time in an abusive relationship is when you are trying to leave. So all of the abuse escalates when the partner knows that you are trying actively to get out

of their relationship. Yeah. So that ties to this. Because, I mean, if you know Othello, the Shakespeare play, then you know where I'm going with this. This is a situation. Morbi jealousy is a situation where a person is consumed by thoughts that their partner is unfaithful without any evidence to indicate this. But it's different between men and women. So for men, predictably, the obsession they have is with sexual infidelity. And for women, the obsession is over emotional infidelity. Totally. in a lot of these situations it ends how you would presume it would end it would end it ends in murder suicide yeah which kind of you know again that makes sense why it's called the fellow syndrome so so that's the situation that we had here with james and kelly which is is an extreme example but I would assume a fairly common example of a situation where someone's in a relation when I was in law school I knew somebody that I was in class with who when we

were in our last year before we were going to graduate she was breaking up with her boyfriend in her car and the boyfriend shot her in the face in the car killing her and then killed himself yeah oh far as i'm so sorry that's awful yeah it you know i hadn't thought of that moment very much until i started researching this case and i saw this abelis syndrome being listed here and was like oh my god i remember that um yeah there's there's tons of people in manchester there's 500 000 people there you know like just date someone else yeah don't kill people there's no reason obviously i don't need to say that there's no reason to kill people but like just date someone else there's tons of people so you know i'm reflecting back on my that that that law school experience

and it's when it's the man doing it which it almost always is the man doing it it's usually because the woman is like living her best life and yeah he's and he's being left behind totally exactly i mean she was going to graduate and presumably be like a very successful successful lawyer and he was kind of a nobody and she didn't need him yeah you need him and he he had peaked with her and he knew that you know I don't know it's that's really that's true like yeah that does yeah that's interesting like she's the best he could ever hope to date and so he's like I can't I don't know I can't do any better so you have I have no I have no rationalization behind that but yeah guys if you're If you're in that situation, make yourself better.

Yeah, like learn. Go to law school, you get it. Yeah, go to school, learn an instrument. Like, learn how to do something cool. Like, work with your, like, don't hurt people because they're better than you. Make yourself better so you deserve someone better. That is such good, that is such good advice. Good job.

Thank you. I'm going to bring that up in dating Fars in Austin. Little nuggets of wisdom. So at the trial, they obviously found James to be. guilty and he is sentenced to life imprisonment. The jury was offered counseling to deal with having to look at pictures of Kelly's injuries. Oh my God.

Poor people. That's awful. Apparently, every single one of them took the court up on that. Oh. Yeah. Well, that was nice of them, I guess. God, that's terrifying. That's a terrifying thing that you don't even think about being on a jury is how

traumatic it could be if you're, like, looking at these listening to these terrible stories. back on the law school thing i don't know if i told you this but i worked in um death penalty defense work so i worked for a law firm that defended people who were subject to the death penalty in florida the pictures i saw oh my god fucking nightmare fuel oh my gosh no what these people did to people i imagine oh my god i'm sorry that you went through that this is terrible i feel terrible it's eight it's like nine in the morning. I feel awful. Keep going. Great way to start your Saturday. So let's see.

James had his first parole hearing recently. This is incredible. He had a parole hearing in November of 2022. So like fairly recently. He was denied parole. He was obviously, he's obviously still in prison to the state. He's now 74 years old. They described the conditions in which he lived as closed conditions, which sounds like solitary confinement to me. I mean, he murdered a child. I mean, he's not going to do well. Yeah, he's not going to do well. He's not a tough guy prison person, you know, so he's not going to do well. So I think that they probably, for his own safety, if nothing else, keep him isolated from the rest of the population. And that's where he lives. Hopefully that's where he dies. Yeah, awful, awful story. Again, the list of shit that this

girl went through there was 150 separate injuries to her body not if you want to know go look up the details but it was a it was an awful awful experience and if you were ever in a situation that is veering towards violence find your support system and hold on to your support system your family or friends and do your best to get out of it i'm going to put some resources in our notes um i know there's some places that you can go to where like you can erase your browser history so someone if you're worried that someone's checking that for you and things like that so you can get help kind of anonymously without your your abusive partner knowing um how how how will she drown like in the bathtub yeah in the bathtub oh poor kid poor thing yeah he apparently

drowned her in the bathtub then took her body and put it in the bedroom yeah yeah I don't know what he thought would happen when police was her eyes were missing right it's not that's not all the blood everywhere it's not like she accidentally drowned in the bathtub and everything else is perfectly fine like there's blood everywhere her eyes are missing she's obviously been tortured for a really long time but oops i killed her yeah it was just like a fun in games like that's not fun in games and i almost feel like we're lucky that he did that because he didn't do it again that he was abusive but at least he only killed one person because he's not funny games because he almost feel like we're lucky that he did that he was abusive but at least he only killed one person because he's definitely would have killed another person. I would imagine, as we're discussing earlier, when someone's life is going one direction and the man feels like they're being left behind, the fact that the abuse escalated from him punching and kicking the Wendy girl earlier on when he was like younger or earlier on in the timeline, maybe because he was approaching his 50s, he went over the hill from 40s

and maybe he just realized like this is the end, like life is, I'm never going to get anyone as young and whatever as he thought Kelly was and that was kind of the impetus for that's her graduating law school moment essentially is like that's the best I'm ever going to do from here on out and I wonder what he is thinking like he's now he has been in jail for 30 years you know so it's not like his life ended his life continued but I guess he just I don't know how he has now he has zero girlfriends so you. Fuck James. Total piece of shit.

Hope he wroughts and fucking misery and jail for the rest of his life. But... All right. Thanks, everyone. Thank you for listening. And thank you for coming if you're a new listener. And guess what? Next week, we actually will release the episode four part two, obviously.

But it was one of my favorite episodes. It's about Eleanor Roosevelt and her girlfriend, Lorna Hickok. So stay tuned for that next Friday, or you can go back and listen to it now. It's episode four. Just listen to the whole thing. If you have any questions, any feedback, please let us know. We're at doomed to fillpod at gmail.com and doomed to philpod on all social medias. Thanks, friends.

Talk to you soon.