Doomed to Fail - Ep 4 - Part 2: A World of Love to You - Eleanor Roosevelt & Lorena Hickok

Episode Date: October 13, 2023

Today we re-visit Taylor's favorite love story. The doomed romantic relationship of First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt and the "#1 Girl Reporter in the Country" assigned to her, Lorena Hickok. Eleanor Roosevelt and FDR were a complicated couple who were perfect for each other in many ways. But, after five children, Eleanor discovered FDR's affair with a secretary - she offered divorce but ended up staying. Soon after, FDR was struck with polio, and ER hit the road, keeping his name in the press and reporting back to him all she knew about New York and beyond. Eleanor became the strong independent woman that we associate with her today - and she shared a lot of her life with her friend and partner, Lorena Hickok.This is Taylor's favorite story! Hope you enjoy.The original episode with sources - https://doomed-to-fail.simplecast.com/episodes/ep-4-empty-without-youInstagram: https://www.instagram.com/doomedtofailpod/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/doomedtofailpod  Youtube:  https://www.youtube.com/@doomedtofailpod TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@doomed.to.fail.pod Email: [e-mail]  Join our Founders Club on Patreon to get ad-free episodes for life! patreon.com/DoomedtoFailPodWe would love to hear from you! Please follow along! Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/doomedtofailpod/  Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/doomedtofailpod  Youtube:  https://www.youtube.com/@doomedtofailpod TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@doomed.to.fail.pod Email: [e-mail] 

Hi everyone. Taylor from Dune to Phil here. Today we are re-releasing episode four part two. This is my favorite story. It is the story of Eleanor Roosevelt and her girlfriend Lorena Hickok. I know what you're thinking. Wait, what? Wasn't she married to FDR? She was. It's complicated. Love is complicated. It's a long story that I try to do a little bit of justice to in about a half hour. This is one that I've revisited a couple times. I really, really like this story. I have some recommended reading at the end and in the notes for you if you do want to learn more about Eleanor and Hick. But it's lovely. And tell your friends that you love them. I think that's something that we all could use kind of all the time right now. So I'll see on the other side.

Thanks. In a matter of the people of the state of California versus Horthall James Simpson, case number B.A.019. And so, my fellow Americans, ask not what your country can do for you ask what you can do for your country so okay well let's switch over to our historical story of a relationship that was doomed to fail and as far as this is this is a love story I texted you last night that I was crying and reading and drinking whiskey and I was listening to you the last book that I listened on this I had a pile of books this is this should be in a visual medium. I'll put this picture. I have this huge pile of books, these books that I've read kind of on these women in the story. And I finished the last one last night via audiobook

while I was doing a laundry and I just sat on my bed just like sobbing because it's just I feel very emotional towards these people. And so it's a love story. It's complicated. There's so much more that can be told than what I'm about to tell you right now. But I'm going to tell you sort of the cliff notes of this of this story. And I'm going to tell you the red flags right at the beginning so that that we're telling us that this relationship was never going to last and never going to be a forever relationship. So the two biggest red flags is one person in the relationship is the wife of the president of the United States.

She's the first lady. And the other person is the woman reporter assigned to cover her. So it was never going to work out. They were, you know, both women in the 1940s. and one of them was the first lady. So there was a lot of, you know, probably not going to make it. But in the meantime, a lot of stuff happened. So a huge pile of books that's taking me years to read through.

I want to read a couple, tell you what a couple of them are. There's No Ordinary Time by Doris Kearne's Goodwin, who's my favorite historian. There's Eleanor Roosevelt, volumes one through three by Blanche Wieson, Weeson Cook. There's Eleanor and Hick by Susan Quinn, Eleanor and Franklin by Joe Lash. And then Eleanor's book herself, this I remember, that she wrote in 1945. And I wanted to do a shout out to Aaron Montejo at Diamond Sutra Books in Las Vegas. He's been a friend of mine since eighth grade and he owns a bookstore in the Arts District in Las Vegas. And he found me a first edition of Eleanor's book.

So it's really beautiful. And I'm super excited that I have it. It's very special. So thank you, Aaron. And if you're in Las Vegas, go to Diamond Sutra Books. It's in the Arts District. So there are thousands of books written about the Roosevelt's talking Franklin, Roosevelt, Eleanor Roosevelt, 1940s, World War II America. It's the New Deal. There's thousands of

letters that Eleanor wrote. She would write constantly be writing letters to people. She also wrote tons of articles, tons of books. So this is just a tiny piece in the Roosevelt's puzzle of this story. I'm also already like pre-upset that I'm not going to get to every detail and I'm going to miss things in this story. So I just want to encourage people to DM me at Doom to Fail Pod on Instagram and tell me what I missed and I want to talk more about it. And I'm also not a queer historian. Like I don't this isn't and I'm not a historian. This isn't my expertise at all. So I also want to make sure like I'm happy that your story was in England. I want to, you know, diversify, go all over the world and I'm not going to talk about white people. So definitely let me know if

you have any other ideas, UFARS and the world. So I'd love to learn a little bit more and have some suggestions on other relationships I could cover. Taylor, can I interrupt real quick? Uh-huh. Please do. I mean, I've known you a very long time. And the story you're going to tell us about Eleanor Roosevelt feels like it has been on your mind a very, very long time. Mm-hmm. And I'm curious why that is. Or if the story you're about to tell is going to highlight that force anyways, then we can just forget this part and move on.

but it's been living in your head for so long. I know. No, you're totally right. Like I'm looking around. I'm like, oh, I have a painting of Eleanor on my wall. You know, I definitely like have, I've read all these books about her. I feel very, like, just continue to be interested with her. I would read all those books again.

I was reading Doris Kieran's good one because she is a really good, you know, historian. She wrote the team of rivals, Abraham Lincoln, one. that everybody knows about. She wrote a really great one on leadership in turbulent times about like Lincoln and Ted Roosevelt and Lyndon Johnson. And I like her books a lot. And so I was reading those. And then I read No Ordinary Time about Eleanor and Franklin. And then I was at my in-laws house and I found Eleanor Roosevelt Volume 1. And that is what actually our friend Lindsay told me to read because she knew I was reading another one about Eleanor. So I found that and I've been kind of like working my way through that three volumes.

set. And it's just like, I'll talk a little bit about her life, but it's just, and this is also something that I read in another book, oh my God, about Winston Churchill. I've just decided to become a historian in the past couple of years. I don't know. It was a pandemic. I had nothing to do. So, I mean, I had a lot to do, but I decided to also do this. And there's a book about Winston Churchill, and the way that that book opens is like, I'm interested in people who live a full life. like people who really fucking just live the shit out of their lives you know and they took opportunities and there were ups and downs but you can really look at their story and be like yeah they fucking live their whole life and they live the shit out of it so I think that Eleanor definitely did that

and that I think is really fascinating and something that like I don't want to be like you know step by step and everything that she did but I think that the idea of like living your life to the fullest is really powerful because a lot of people feel like they're not I love that. Yeah. Makes sense. Oh, okay. I have a bottle of tissues.

I'm already going to cry this. Makes no sense. So the relationship between Eleanor and Franklin Roosevelt is complicated. It had many twists and turns, but there was lots of hurt and lots of love, lots of respect. And they are, you know, an inescapable teamwork between the two of them. So there's definitely that between the two. Some characters I want you to remember that kind of romantic characters are going to come in and out of their lives for Franklin. Remember Lucy Mercer.

and Missy LaHand. And then for Eleanor, remember, Joseph Lash, Earl Miller, Dr. David Gvertich, I know I was going to get that wrong. David Gurowich. And then the person we're talking about today, writer Lorena Hickok. So we're going to talk about Eleanor and Hick. That's our couple that was doomed to fail. And we'll start with Hick. She was born on March 7, 1893 in East Troy, Wisconsin.

So terrible place to be born, terrible time to grow up. She was poor. She had a very hard Midwestern life. her father was an abusive alcoholic she left home at a young age to work as a maid so very young like 13 14 working in other people's homes she didn't really get a chance to go to school eventually a relative in Chicago was able to take her in and allowed her to get an education and so she began writing as like a girl reporter in in like Minneapolis in Wisconsin in like the Midwest and you know it was a time when like women were given the you know tell me about the biggest pumpkin in town stories you know

Like, it wasn't like a woman who was a hard-hitting reporter, but Hick was a hard-hitting woman. And she wanted to, you know, move up and do other things and really get, move forward with her writing. And she was very talented. So Hick was also a lesbian. She had an eight-year relationship with a woman named Ella Morris, a fellow reporter, but Ella counts, they were very happy. Hick was diagnosed with diabetes in, you know, in her 30s. And Ella took time off to take care of her. But then unexpectedly, Ella met a man that she had.

once known and left Hick to marry him and start a family. So that sucks. Hick was devastated. You know, obviously they lived like together as like companions and friends because it was the, you know, the 30s and 40s. But she did, you know, have a long-term relationship. And she moved to New York because she wanted to kind of get away from the memories of Ella and what they had together.

So in 1932, where our story starts, Hick is the most popular women reporter in the country. she was the first woman to have a byline in the New York Times and she calls herself well I said that I said this already but she called herself quote the top gal reporter in the country so that's awesome yeah so she was really like top of her game yeah absolutely breaking down barriers yeah and um so if you got to picture her she's stocky you know she's a little bit you know she's kind of short kind of stocky she's smoking constantly and she's drinking and telling stories she just sounds like a blast so she'd have its hard life. She's in New York.

She's an associated press reporter. Things are going really well for her. So we have Hick. It's 1932. Let's go back to Eleanor. What? I just Googled Eleanor Roosevelt and Lorena Hickickok to get a picture of what she looks like. And the very first thing that came up was a, it's incredible.

It's a book that's entitled Empty Without You. I can see why this hits you. Everyone. I mean, it's like a heartstring story. Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. So now you see their picture.

It's like Eleanor is tall and Hick is like a lot shorter than her. Yep. As you can kind of see them together. Yeah. And so Eleanor Roosevelt was born Anna Eleanor Roosevelt on October 11th, 1884. So she's nine years older than Hick. she was born to a rich family. Her mother wasn't very nice to her, but she adored her father. Unfortunately, her father was a severe alcoholic and he passed away when she was young. So that's something that actually have in common losing their parents and they're young. Eleanor's mother died pretty quickly after that. So she's raised by family and sent to London to study at Allen's Wood Academy, which was a girl's school in London in that time. And if you look it up, it's like this beautiful old building and they knocked it down to make projects, which is gross. So like, great job, London. But it was run by a woman named Marie Servest, and she was from France,

and she was very forward thinking, and she was also a lesbian. So Eleanor would travel with Madame Sylvesterst all over Europe. And there was another book that came out later that another student wrote about actually being madly in love with this teacher and with this headmaster of the school. So Eleanor was around lesbians and knew about these relationships from, you know, teens, which I think is interesting because it was like the 20s. Yeah. Yeah. I would imagine in any culture, I would imagine that there's a, the ability if you want

to learn to go and find out about stuff like that. Right. You're right. There's always been gay people. Yeah, exactly. So they foster around. Absolutely. Totally right.

So, Eleanor has a great time there. And she comes back to New York to have her coming out party. She's obviously from her rich family because she was a Roosevelt. she ends up marrying Franklin Roosevelt, who was her father's fifth cousins. They're like practically strangers. They're not related. They're from different branches of the Roosevelt family. They just happen to have the same last name.

Right. Yeah. Her uncle is Teddy Roosevelt. Her dad is Teddy Roosevelt's brother. And TR does give her away at her wedding because her dad had already passed. So she is close to him. So she's already like been to the White House, you know, and like been around the presidency because her uncle was president.

Right. So she's married to Franklin. He's also just kind of like a rich kid. I wish I could do like an accident that that they can do. But they were just like, you know, rich kids from upstate New York. And Eleanor spent her 20s having babies. She has six children. One died as an infant.

And she was a terrible mother, which I also think is interesting. Because like when I'm reading about like first ladies and women who are really successful, there's always something that gives. And like, Ellen Rose was just not a good mom. She didn't really care. Makes her human. I mean, everything else she said. She sounds incredibly privileged.

And it's like, okay, well, you got to flop somewhere. Yeah. I think it's because she had no examples because her mom was very mean to her. But she would do things like if her daughter was crying, she just like put her outside on the terrace in New York City, like whatever. And then the neighbors would complain. She'd be like, oh, I thought she needed light, you know, like, I don't know, I don't know what to do with this child. So she had a pretty bad relationship with her kids, their whole lives. And, you know, some of her, some of her sons, you know, did go to World War II. They all came back. But her kids had like also terrible relationships. So her, of her five children, there were like 15. teen marriages among them. They all got married like a ton of times. So she was also like a little disappointed in that, but she was never really that close to them. Okay. That wasn't an um.

I apologize for it. I think I'm doing okay. Let me know. Make like jazz hands. If I started doing too many ums, I can see you. So, okay. So now we're in 1913, Franklin is assistant secretary of the Navy, which is a job that T.R.

had as well. And they lived in D.C. and a woman named Lucy Mercer, who we heard about before, was one of Eleanor's secretaries, and her and Franklin had an affair. There was a little bit of, like, flirtation between them, and then Eleanor found some love letters, and that confirmed it. And she was obviously devastated and thought her marriage was over. But her mother-in-law and FDR convinced her that, you know, they could work through it, and, you know, they would be able to, you know, be okay. So this is when it's 1921, and the big thing happens to FDR. Can you think of the big thing that might have happened to FDR when he was younger,

like in his 30s? Yeah, he was stricken by his polio, right? Right. Correct. Yep. And in 1921, they're at Campabella, which is a house that they have in Canada. They have a bunch of, like, vacation houses. And he goes swimming one night with the kids, comes home, wakes up, says, I have some chills,

and then he never walks again. He got polio somehow from swimming. I don't know. I didn't look that up. but that's kind of the story that that happens. And another question that I have for you as far as as a Texan, did you know that Greg Abbott is in a wheelchair? Yeah.

I didn't know that until very recently. And I thought that was interesting because both my husband and my father-in-law were talking about Franklin Roosevelt for Christmas, of course. And they were like, you couldn't be president in a wheelchair today. They both said the same thing. But I'm like, hey, you could. Greg Abbott is doing tons of damage and being such a dick from a wheelchair, you know. Like, I don't think that that really matters.

Like, I didn't know for a long time until I saw a picture of him, but, you know, it wasn't, it wasn't like the lead in his story. So I don't think it would be for anyone now. Well, I would say that from what I can gather from seeing, you know, news articles about him, they kind of make it a point to not show the wheelchair as much as they possibly can. Apparently it was a pretty traumatic thing. It wasn't like he was born. It was a car accident, right? Oh, no. Tree fell on him when he was jogging.

Yeah, a tree fell on him when he was born. jogging. Oh, that's awful. Yeah. Yeah. Crazy. Yeah. But I think it's interesting that you can still, you know, be in American politics and be in a wheelchair these days. It's not like a deal breaker. Like I feel like we're told it was a deal breaker when we were little or the American president or something. Yeah. Well, the way that they constantly hid Roosevelt. Right. So nobody could see that he was in a wheelchair, which is very really. I don't think that'd be a thing anymore, thankfully. Yeah, they're not like propping him up against other people. having you pretend to walk around right we definitely did that with franklin for sure so this was like obviously devastating and some people wanted him to just like retire and like become you know just

like live with his family forever he really wanted to continue to be in politics so for about nine years eleanor was his eyes and ears around the country she would travel she would tell him what was going on in the state and in the country she would meet people she worked really close with his advisor Louis Howe and kept the Roosevelt name out there. And this was really cool for her. She hadn't lived her own life for so long. She had just been a mom and had a bunch of babies and her mother-in-law was very controlling. She was under Franklin's shadow. But now she was the one who had to be out there because Franklin physically couldn't be. He spent time in Warm Springs, Georgia, where he had a spa, like healing waters that he had, you know, purchased and made for

people who were afflicted and trying to like get himself better. But while he was doing that, Eleanor was the one who was out there really doing things, like writing and talking to people. And so I think that like the affair and the polio gave her two big things that really changed her life. It gave her a pass to have very deep emotional relationships with a lot of people. So now she was like, oh, I can go and have my own relationships and like live my own life. And then it also gave her a sense of non-permanence for relationships, like for marriage, for other relationships. So she, did some weird things where she like held on too tight and put herself from relationships where she didn't belong because I don't think that that like sanctity of a permanent relationship meant anything as much as it did before to her. And Susan Quinn in Eleanor and Hick, she described as Eleanor's relationships as triangular. There's always someone else involved. You know, it was always like a wife or a partner or like something. She's always kind of in other people's things. If Franklin's affair was the trigger for that. I think so. Yeah. And then the polio because

the polio made her kind of be able to step up and do things that she wasn't able to do before and she felt the freedom to do it because she was like, well, now I can do whatever I want, which is exciting for her and kind of lets her go into her own, do her own things. So she starts a school in New York City. She's like the vice principal and teaches there with some of her friends. She starts a furniture company up in Hyde Park with her friends, Nancy Cook and Marion Dickerman, which is another lesbian couple that she was close with. So they lived on their property in Hyde Park and had a furniture factory for, you know, decades. So there's a lot of photos of her with them. And so she was really like she would

have an apartment in New York City where she would go to like to the village and hang out with the gays, things like that. So she was definitely like still in that community. And that had to be so fun. Oh my God. It's so fun. Back to the smoking. I mean, she didn't like to smoke or drink because she had that alcoholism and her family and all of that, which is why she would lock the cabinet and not want her husband to drink during prohibition. But still sounds real fun. Yeah, because that that was that was free stonewall so a lot of the interactions had this kind of like not equality to it to it to it had to be in private it had to be able to speak easies and like getting the other friends houses because you weren't allowed to congregate me late yeah yeah we talked about

speakeasies last time too i love it i love it i love it yeah i know they're played out but i love And so FDR is elected president in 1932, blah, blah, blah. A whole bunch of stuff happened to get him there, but he's president. Do you know how many times he was president first? He was three, uh, he got elected three times and died halfway through his third term. And that's when Truman took over. Is that right? Close.

It's four times. Damn. Was I right about Truman? Yes. Okay. Yes. When, this is not in my notes, but when FDR died, Eleanor was the one to tell Truman. And Truman said, is there anything I can do for you?

and she said, oh, no, no, is there anything I can do for you? You're the one who's in trouble now. Yeah, that's time to be an incoming president. Yeah, he didn't even make it a year into his fourth term. But after that, they did make it a rule. The two-term rule was more of a guideline after Washington had, you know, resigned after two terms, but it's an official rule now. But the America, you know, wanted Franklin Roosevelt to get them through that war.

So there's a lot. And there's so much, yeah. Yeah, because he got them through, if I remember my American history, right, Herbert Hoover was president during the Great Depression, and he basically didn't do jack shit. And then Franklin, that's the position on which Franklin Roosevelt got elected, right, was I'm going to fix the economy. He started all these different associations and organizations that could hire people for day labor work and stuff like that.

And yeah, got America out of the Great Depression. Yeah, exactly. That was the new deal. You know, a lot of like social programs, you know, let's build all these big roads, build all these big post offices, just like get people back to work. And also, this is not on my notes, just a thing that I haven't to know is like, this is the time when like he really wanted like universal health care. He, his administration is responsible for unemployment benefits and social security and, you know, things like that that America didn't

have before this. So really trying to like make sure that people were supported by the government. So, okay. So it's his first term as 1932. And this is like the shortest I can make this. And Hick is assigned to Eleanor as her like AP reporter. So it's 1932. Hick is at the top of her game. She's like the best gal reporter in the country. She's assigned to Eleanor. She's 39 years old. And she's not even going to make it a year before she leaves her job. So top of her game, she doesn't even make it to the summer of 1933. She has to quit because she's so close to Eleanor. So it probably. starts in a train car on the campaign trail. They kind of were avoiding each other. They like didn't, you know, Eleanor was like, oh, another reporter who's like following me around. And then there was an instance where one reporter named John got invited to a Eleanor, a Roosevelt family party. And Hick was like, that's weird. I want to go too. And Eleanor let her come and happened to be because John was having an affair with Eleanor's daughter, Anna, like the kids are terrible relationships too. But they started to become friends. And they spent this overnight rise. in a train car or they told each other their life stories and they had so much in common. Like they didn't have parents who were there for them and they felt inadequate and all these things. Even though they were totally different socioeconomic points, they still felt, you know, very, very, you know, very similar.

So one thing that I find, like one story that I think is hilarious is in her book, in this I remember, Eleanor says, you know, Hick interviewed her at the night of the inauguration and so many people were trying to interrupt them that they had to finish the interview in the bathroom of the hotel they were staying in in dc and it was innocent enough and you know in eleanor's story she brings that up but i read another book that was like they were already in love at this point and it was inauguration night and eleanor was overwhelmed she didn't know if she wanted to be a first lady and her and hick kind of escaped into the bathroom and i imagine that this is like it's cold outside you know when you're in dc the the heater is like hissing you know so it's like hissing from the heater

it's cold outside, they're sitting on the cold tile floor, and they're just like, they have each other during this really crazy time. So it actually feels much more romantic than, obviously, the Nellner said in her book, but it's a time when they really, like, worked together and really needed each other. And, you know, Hick helped ER's career. She encouraged her to host press conferences for just women. And she also wrote to, they wrote letters every day, like 10 page letters to each other every day when they were apart, which is crazy. And Hick said, you know, you should tell people what's going on in your letters. So Eleanor created a newspaper column called My Day, where every single day for decades, she would write a couple paragraphs at what she did, and it would be published in a bunch of different newspapers, which is pretty cool. Hick was responsible for that. So these are all these letters. So we go out of the timeline and think about these love letters. So they're literally written on paper. There's thousands of pages of love letters. Hick burned some of the more intimate ones after Eleanor died, which is a bummer. So we don't have those. And then she kind of gave up because it was like a big task.

So she gave them to the museum in Hyatt Park and said, don't open these until 10 years after I die. Wow. So she just wanted them to remain kind of like a secret. Yeah, that's part of what I saw here when I was trying to find this picture and found this incredibly touching title of this book called Empty Without You was that I was looking at when Hicks died and looking at when all these rumors started coming up. And I was like, wow, that's weird, 10 years, huh?

That's how long people to start caring about this? It makes sense now. Yes. Oh, exactly. I was like, good job. That's exactly why, because they weren't allowed to open them. I mean, they were clearly whatever they want, whatever, but they respected her wishes and didn't do that. So, unfortunately, this prude of an author named Doris Farber, who wrote Hicks biography is the one who opened them first.

And she sucks. And she immediately wanted to put them away. It was like the 80s, and she was like, nope, no. And she said, quote, how could any reasonably, perceptive adult deny that these were love letters. So she was, like, floored that, like, out and Roosevelt would have a physical lesbian relationship with another woman while she was first lady. And she wanted them put away. She asked them to put them back for a couple more decades. And she also tries to get around it by saying, you know, in Victorian times, people

sent more love letters to platonic friends. So you maybe have more flowerly, flowery language, you know, which I think is great. We should bring that back. You know, like I, I, There's some letters from Ted Roosevelt and Taft where they're like, you are the best. I'm so excited that we're friends. That's great. We should do more of that, you know. Let me do it. Yeah.

And there's more also like, you know how people are like Abe Lincoln's gay because he slept with dudes in the same bed? Do you remember those rumors? I've never heard that. So there's like, and like some of his memoir is he's like, oh, well, I was traveling around Illinois as a circuit lawyer. And, you know, my buddy Jeff, who's also a lawyer, we shared a room, blah, blah, blah. But that was just like what you did then.

because rooms were expensive. And I think the actual scandal there is how gross that must have been. Yeah. That was not, like, clean sheets. That was very stinky. All I know is what I learned about Abraham Lincoln in that vampire slayer movie. You remember that? Oh, my God.

I watched half of it, I feel like semi recently. And I was like, I, even I can't finish this. It was so fun. I loved it. Maybe I'll pick it up again, but I was like, absolutely that. So who knows? You know, like, yes, people wrote more following letters, but let me read. you some of these letters as far as. So Eleanor wore a ring that Hick gave her to the

to the first inauguration of FGR. This is like a few months into the relationship. And she wrote to Hick, quote, Hick, darling, I want to put my arms around you to hold you close. Your ring is a great comfort. I look at it and I think she does love me. And then she says, you have grown so much to be a part of my life that is empty without you. Even though I'm busy every minute, my love and folds the all night through. I mean. It's incredible. Those are love letters.

That's where that name comes from, empty without you. Yeah. And one from Hick, this one's my favorite. So Hick wrote that she is trying to remember Eleanor's face when they're apart. And she says, most clearly, I remember your eyes with a kind of teasing smile in them and the feeling of that soft spot just northeast of the corner of your mouth against my lips. So I think it's Blanche Weas and Cook in her book where she wrote, sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, but the northeast corner of your mouth is always the northeast corner of your mouth.

So like, they definitely, you know, were, you know, we're physical with each other. They traveled a lot and served their time alone. They drive through town by themselves and refuse secret service help. And Eleanor freely writes about them camping together and sharing rooms at friends' houses. They did some, you know, domestic work together. They went to Puerto Rico to look at the slums. It was like, and some of her pet projects sort of help people. There was a project that Elder Dick called Arthurdale where she, you know, gave people houses and job training to try to get them to, you know, the better lives and like the coal mining towns. So a lot of like social services, things that they did. And, you know, tons of my darlings, I miss you. And I love these on the side. They dreamed about growing old together. Like I can't wait until we have a house together and we can just live there until we're old, things like that. They were lovely. Love letters. And at this time, it was getting really hard of her. Obviously, Hick is not a, you cannot be a,

an unbiased reporter anymore. So she leaves her job and, you know, starts to get jobs sort of in the government that Eleanor hooks, like, hooks up for her she's able to have. I also read on Wikipedia when I was just like scanning it for dates. Did you have the Jay Edgar movie with Leonardo DiCaprio? Yes. I remember. I don't, I don't remember.

It was a long time ago when I saw it. But it does, did say in Wikipedia that that movie alludes that J. Edgar had proof that Eleanor was having this lesbian affair and he threatened to expose her. I don't. See, I don't remember that. I don't either, but that said it was alluded to him in the movie, but I don't know if I want to watch it again

because I feel like it was also pretty intense. I remember, I remember, I definitely didn't walk away from it thinking better of Jay Edgar Hoover. No, I mean, of all people. He obviously has secrets himself, you know. Of all people, yes. Yeah, like great. You're going to be the one to be the one to be.

like this is this is exposable but whatever he didn't um and so hick was you know working with hick worked for the world's fair she worked for the dnc she traveled around reported back to eleanor kind of became her eyes and ears and eventually she moves into the white house and i have oh gosh where do i have somewhere in one of these books i have a map the floor plan of the white house at that time and so the way that it was is the the residence floor of the white house Eleanor and Franklin had different rooms that were side by side. And then across a, like a sitting room for Eleanor's room was the Lincoln bedroom, which is like the famous bedroom because Lincoln has a long bed there or whatever.

And on the side of the Lincoln bedroom is a small room, and that was Hicks room. And she lived there for years. So there were steps away from each other in the White House. Is that, that's not normal for, is that normal? No. Yeah, okay. So the Roosevelt's had a lot of, like, friends that would stop by. and stay there who would work there and people would stay for a while there were always guests

you know it was never like an empty you know an empty place but you know having hick lived there for so long and also they kept it a secret so hick would literally like if someone took her out to dinner they'd bring her back to the mayflower hotel and she would sneak out of the back and take a cab to the white house so that's so interesting she wasn't telling people that she was living there but she was loving there which i think is really this is like this is a sad life of loretta hickok because she You know, it was, just wanted to be close to Eleanor any way possible. I'm looking at the Mayflower to see where it is in proximity to the White House. Oh, my God, thank you.

So it is, I mean, it's not an inconsequential distance away. I guess if you're trying to maintain that level of secret, you kind of go to whatever lengths you have to. It's kind of, like, I've walked. this i mean yeah like she could have gotten dropped off way closer there's places that well it it was a long time ago so maybe maybe maybe this maybe this was the closest place she could have gotten dropped off at yeah maybe makes sense but yeah you're right she had to like pay for her cab to take her there you know it wasn't like free it's like walk across the street you know yeah so i think that's like that's more i think more evidence that you know it was it was kind of a clandestine thing that

they were that they were doing and they were sharing. So eventually, you know, when things got really busy, Eleanor was so beloved and so needed. And it was World War II. You know, like they really needed her out like in the world. She was really working hard to get the United Nations started. And she often had to break plans with Hick. And Hick was getting sick or with her diabetes. And they kept disappointing each other, you know, being like, I wish I could be here with you. I can't. Like I have to do like, I'm sick. I have a job. I have to do this. And they just kept missing each other in, in this time. And so unfortunately, Higg is just like, I can't do this anymore. And she moves to a small house on Long Island that she lives in until she can no longer afford eight years later.

And then after that, Eleanor helps her get a place near her in Hyde Park. So she always lives near her. It's like she was never out of reach. You know, even after the affair maybe had ruled, she was never out of reach. And they both had other relationships. Hick tried to make it work with other women. Eleanor had, like I said before, a disposition to like kind of be involved in other people's relationships in like a suspicious way she would meet like younger men at like like I don't know

I'm I feel like I saw that and it sounded weird than I actually think it is but she would like go to like a youth conference and she met this man Joseph Lash she wrote this long book about her and became a lifelong friend but they were like very close it was a little bit like her sons were kind of sucked so she needed a son figure but also it was a little bit like flirtatious yeah and she was like getting older yeah and she also had a bodyguard named Earl Miller and he He, they would do things like put on plays of the White House and like they have this, like a video that they have of them doing like a pirate show where he's a pirate and he like kidnaps her. He picks her up and he's like carrying her around the White House. And so there were a lot of rumors that they were having an affair.

And Earl Miller said he got married at least twice to kind of start to quell those rumors. And his third divorce, the wife threatened to name Eleanor Roosevelt in the divorce proceedings, but ended up not doing it. Oh, wow. it was like she played a significant she played a significant role there yeah for sure like if you're causing your friend to have three divorces because his wives are sick of you guys hanging out then like that's the thing yeah totally so she was in and out of those things in the end her one of her last relationships is with a a man named dr david kvarovitch he you know was a lot younger than her and then he met someone and when he met someone eleanor was devastated but

ended up, like, letting them to get married in her apartment and, like, traveling the world with them. So she just, like, didn't want to leave him alone, which is, like, kind of, kind of weird. So to explore it in different times. He's got to pull the rip cord. That's on him. Totally. Totally. So she just needed to be a part of relationships in any kind of way. Franklin also had other relationships. So he's still here, you know, his president, his secretary, Missy LaHan, who's one of the people I mentioned earlier, she devoted her goddamn life to him. She gave him everything. She was always with him. there's a couple like the Hyde Park movie with Bill Murray have you seen that no so there's a movie where

bill Murray plays FDR and it they do the weekend where the king and queen of England come to Hyde Park to meet with him and they in that movie they flat out say that he was having an affair with like another cousin of his and missy LaHan his secretary um the weird thing that I think is also kind of interesting about the way that the Roosevelt's think about relationships is that Miss Celah Hand was fucking devoted to Franklin. She was always with him. She helped him with everything.

And when she had a heart attack or a stroke went to the hospital, he never visited her. And when she died, he didn't go to her funeral. Oh, wow. So he just, like, forgot about her in like that fleeting relationship kind of way,

which I think is really sad. And her life is sad. But like we said before, Franklin was president four times. He died during his fourth term pretty early into his fourth term. He was in Warm Springs, Georgia. And guess who he was with when he died?

Eleanor? No, he's with Lucy Mercer, the girl, like the woman that he had that affair with 20 years ago, like 20 to 30 years ago, that started the whole thing. They had started to see each other again. And Eleanor's daughter, Anna, had kind of helped arrange that because they loved each other. And Anna saw that Lucy made her dad happy when her dad was like super stressed out. And her mom never made him happy that way. You know, they hadn't in a long time. Even though the Roseville's loved each other, they still didn't have that, like, it just was, you know, different.

So after FDR dies, Eleanor is, you know, out on her own, Hick writes some books for young adults. She wrote a book on Helen Keller, and Eleanor actually arranged for her to meet Helen Keller. So that book is, like, still up there and was pretty popular. Eleanor was in her late 60s and early 70s, and she was still traveling the world. So she was working for the United Nations under Truman, and then Eisenhower took away her actual job with the U.N. but she volunteered with it after that. And so she went everywhere. She went to Russia, the Middle East, Asia, just all over the world, into her 70s.

And she would visit Hick in her small apartment in Hyde Park near the Roosevelt home from time to time. And Hick was very sick with her diabetes. She had arthritis. She couldn't see very well. So she really couldn't go anywhere. She just kind of stayed like near Eleanor's home for that end. Yeah. And eventually Eleanor got sick with tuberculosis.

one fun thing is in the hospital she was like okay i'm ready to die and the nurse said you should wait until god is ready for you and er said utter nonsense which is cute a cute thing to say and she ended up being able to go home and she died in new york on november 7th 1962 at the age of 78 eleanor is buried with franklin in hide park so obviously this was devastating for like a lot of people she was like the first lady of the world everybody really loved her um obviously hick especially And although she was very sick, she lived another five years. And during that five years, she did more writing and kind of put it around the town next to where Eleanor was buried. And during this time, this is when she curated her letters and donated them to the museum and all of those things.

And Hick died on May 1, 1968. In her will, she gave her favorite granddaughter of Eleanor's royalties to her Helen Keller book. And they've amounted to like, you know, over $80,000. So she was able to, you know, finally give someone some money and earn some money from her writing. And she put in her will that she wanted to be cremated and have her ashes scattered by, you know, a tree to help the trees grow. But her ashes went and claimed and they were buried in the mass unclaimed remains plot in the Rinebeck Cemetery about 15 minutes from Hyde Park, which sucks. And so later, after the letters came out and after people started learning more about Hick and Eleanor's relationship, ER's biographer and some other women would plant a tree in the cemetery. and put a little bench

and they made a little plaque and the plaque says, I'm going to cry now, the plaque says Lorena Hickok Hick March 1893 to May 1968, East Troy, Wisconsin to Hyde Park, New York, AP reporter, author, activist, and friend of ER. And that's where her little plaque is

in the cemetery. And I'm crying because it's just, it's very passionate and interesting and like I said before like it's a, I think Eleanor, her full life, and I don't think that heck did. And so that makes me really, really sad. This is the worst episode of a podcast ever.

It was sad and it was traumatizing and I'm sorry to everyone. No, I think it's hitting for me so many feelings. I'm being honest. You know, I've the impetus for this podcast, which I don't know if we've been discussed here was a relationship that I was in that was very I'm going to describe as soulful that was obviously going to it had to end yeah and there's a quality to your story that really hit home for me when it comes to that which is the universe put putting two people together in moments when they really, really, really need each other,

knowing full well that those circumstances that also brought you together are the circumstances that are going to tear you apart. Yeah. Totally. Which is sad. It is sad. But I think it's sad and then it's hopeful because then you can, you know, you can live many lives and have many, you know, just don't kill people.

just love a lot of people and I feel like that that's what Eleanor did and Hick and I think you know fortunately unfortunately she had her great love and it was Eleanor so yeah that was that was kind of it for her and I'm happy

that we're telling her story in many different books in many different ways because it's such an important part of part of history to be like you know this relationship during this time and you know the Doris Cairns Goodwin book is called it's called no ordinary time and maybe because that's what we're talking about.

Like, this was a real special time in history and a real special, like, a relationship and a thing for the entire world. And that during this time, there was love as well. It's, like, I think, really hopeful and sad and interesting. And next week, I'm going to do something horrible. I need to find something that is, like, very violent again. I'm going to get more violence into mine. You know what I was also thinking of was Diana. Yeah.

Because, I mean, obviously their husbands. were dramatically different. Franklin was arguably the best president. The U.S. has ever had. Charles was useless and didn't do anything. But, like, they both ended up in some ways becoming kind of the flag bearer for their husbands and their countries.

And, yeah, very interesting. Becoming their own powerhouse, independent of their husbands, essentially. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I don't feel like I'm going to do, Diane. because she's been done to death, part of the fun. There's so many freaking things about her, leave her alone.

I agree. I'm going to let her rest for a minute and a half, that poor lady. Yeah. Cool. Well, thanks, Taylor. I am, you know, I'm going to dwell on this. I'm actually leaving after this to drive to Dallas for a family reunion. And there's going to be two things that you left me with.

that I'm legit going to be dwelling on the entire drive. One is the concept of living the shit out of your life, which I think I've been sleepwalking through most of that for a little bit. And I'm coming out of it. And this story really helped reinvigorate that piece. And the other is, I'm never going to forget this title, empty without you, the intimate letters of Lorena Hickok and Eleanor Roosevelt.

I don't even have that book. I don't think I could handle it emotionally. what a beautifully titled book and when you read that quote i was like they talked to each other like this that's incredible yeah it's so beautiful and so lovely and i'll write you a really nice letter later to say that tells you that you're the best i appreciate that you are not going to like this because i don't i know you well enough to know that you are not a huge fan of ronald ragan but i did go to ragan's presidential museum i was a little bit in l a la that's cool his love letters to nancy were like this they were are they really incredible and they're they're all over the place you just go about

go around and read them because he was always on the move you know doing his thing but he wrote incredible letters to his wife and they're definitely worth the read i definitely want to go i want to go to all of the presidential museums his has an air force one too right yeah but it's like the old. No, no, I know. But is it cool? It's not the 747. Oh, it's awesome.

Yeah. It's, it's, uh, it, they have Air Force one. They have Marine one. You walk into this giant hangar that has a cafe and it's, it's, it's, it's, it's I'm trying to remember what city it's in in California. I can't remember. Whatever it is, though, it faces this bluff that is stunning. You, you're in this hangar that's all glass based like on the side of a cliff.

It's absolutely fantastic. I used to go. Nixon's library is also very close to here, too. and I just find it delightful that Nixon's from Costa Mesa because I imagine him like with an umbrella and it's raining on just him because he's like from his beautiful place in California. He's just like, nah. And also my, I'm going to New York in July and I will be 35 minutes from Hyde Park. So I will report back because I'm going to go visit that. I'm going to visit Lorena's plaque. I'm going to cry a lot. I will share photos when I do that later. So cool. Well, thank you, Fars for this. Have a safe trip to Dallas. While you're there, go to the Jif. museum about the assassination. There's a place where you can go and stand at the window that Lee Harvey Aldwell's at. You can do that. And I want to remind everyone to like and subscribe on all the things.

Find us at Doom to Fill Pod on Facebook and Instagram. And keep listening. Thank you. Keep listening. We'll live you with keep listening. I'll be funnier. I keep saying that. I don't get funnier.

I'm going to go cry. I'm going to weep. I'll talk to you later. I'm going to go ahead and stop the recording. Hello, Taylor again. I hope you enjoyed that re-release. I was literally listening to this on a plane. The other day, like listening to my own podcast and I made myself cry. It could have been all the drama mean and the wine, but also it's emotional. And I hope that you liked it. I'd love to hear if you have any other stories that you think we should cover. Please send us an email at doom to philipod at gmail.com. Or if you have any feedback, or questions. And then just a reminder, we are re-releasing our first 26 episodes in half episodes. So that's what we're doing today, because we used to do two stories at a time,

but they were getting really long. So that's what this is. But if you do want to go back and listen to our first 26 episodes, you absolutely can. They are in all of their long form glory on our archives and on, you know, that means iTunes, Spotify, Pocketcasts, YouTube, wherever you listen. And then we'll release one a week as well for you to revisit. So, let us know if you need anything. We're at doomed to fill a pod everywhere. Thanks again.