Dr. Insanity - A Cop Realizes He's Going To Jail For Life

Episode Date: December 29, 2025

This Suspect, Grant Harden was charged of murder, and after being brought in for interrogation attempted to escape the room several times. #psychology #truecrime Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

This is Grant Harden, a 50-year-old police officer hiding a horrifying secret. Grant has been apprehended on suspicion of murder, but as it would later transpire, his crimes and behavior were so bad that in his interrogation, he tried everything he possibly could to escape. On the 23rd of February, James Appleton had pulled into a parking lot on Gannridge Road to take a phone call with his brother-in-law. Suddenly, a loud banging sound was heard over the phone, and the line went dead. A passerby had spotted a white Chevrolet Malibu parked behind James' car that immediately sped away after the loud noise.

When the passerby went to check on James, he was lying dead at the wheel, with a gunshot wound to the head. Gateway, Arkansas is a small town of 400 people, so the owner of the Chevy was quickly determined to be Grant Hardin, a 50-year-old police officer who had lived in this town his whole life. Later that night, Grant's vehicle was stopped at a police roadblock after taking his family out for dinner. and he was quickly brought in for questioning. But unfortunately, for everyone involved, Grant's experience in law enforcement would prove to make this interrogation

one of the most excruciating and difficult that Arkansas police had ever had to deal with. I'm just like for Chamberlain. I know we have James Chamberlain. Did you used to be a police officer somewhere? I could ask you, but I wasn't 100% sure where I knew you from, but somebody said that you used to be a police officer

and gateway or something like that. Okay. The interrogation begins casually as Detective Chamberlain opens with questions about Grant's career. As they're both police officers, he assumes he can strike an immediate middle ground with him, building trust between them and hopefully getting him to relax so he'd give up information easier. A strategy that he'd soon find out had the opposite effect. Grant has then read his rights, but decides this is where he's going to start making it difficult for the detectives. Here's the thing. I want to talk to you about what you've done today.

Okay, can you just take me through when you woke up this morning to when you got stopped by the police out there in, what's name that road that you're on? I'm sorry, I'm going to drop, being rich. I'm not going to say anything after I've been read those rights yet. Okay. Well, I don't know what's going on. I am kind of sickly to what I'm here for in things. Up until this point, Grant hasn't been told what he's been brought in for and states that he's feeling sickly, given the circumstances he's been put into. Given his disturbing potty language, he may also be feeling exposed and somewhat inferior due to being the suspect of a case instead of the detective for the first time in his life. So you don't want to explain what you've done today?

Did you, is there a reason behind that? Well, it was the first thing that said, I have the right to remain silent. Okay. So you're telling this you don't want to talk to me right now? Okay, cool. Ain't tied right here for just a few minutes, okay? As is normal in a case like this, the detectives leave the room for a few. minutes to talk about how they're going to handle the interview. And not only does it give

them time to formulate their approach, but it also gives the suspect's time alone to worry about what could be going on and form anxiety regarding their situation. At the same time, though, it may also give the suspect a moment to collect their thoughts and generate their own story and approach to the interview, putting the detectives on the back foot instead. By the way, I have detectives cordiare. I think we've been once before. Probably so. Yeah, please. Okay, so I don't know if I scared you at the beginning or what, but that's why I was trying to, and I can't, you see the position that I mean, I can't tell you why you're here,

but at the same time, I need to rule you out into something. Does that make sense? When the detectives re-enter the room, they try an obviously different approach, this time attempting to set granted ease, stating that they just need to clear him from any wrongdoing, and then he's free to go on his way. Many people would, at least subconsciously, be inclined to open up a little more in an attempt to get out of there as soon as possible. But Grant has other ideas. Would you be willing to talk to me about your day knowing that I need to rule you out of something? Or I'm just, if you didn't do anything wrong today, you have nothing to worry about.

Yes, I would have liked to before the rights were read. So not knowing what's going on. Yeah, and you understand as a detective, we read those rights to everybody who comes in here. It's not just you. It happens to everybody that walks through this room and talks to us. As a former police officer, Grant is fully aware of all of this. He knows everybody that's interviewed, innocent or not, has to be read these rights, which essentially completely invalidates this as the real reason that he isn't talking.

He's just using it as an excuse to refuse to talk, and possibly to even stall for time. I guess my question is this, knowing what I just told you, I guess if it was me and I was you know if I was in your position I'd be like hey James I did this I was at or Grant I did this I was at you know here here here here and here and I would just be done with it

but at this point like I can't clear you from this because you could still potentially be a suspect I don't know if I'm not explaining a rider or what is going on here I just have once the rights have been read I have to have it says I have the right to be silent

yes okay Just tell me this. I know you're a police officer before, right? You're a police officer in Gateway? It's an easy, yes or no. I'm being silent. Well, I can see that. We can do this all night. I mean, it doesn't bother me. You're going to continue to be a suspect and go out otherwise. Unfortunately for the detectives, Grant is exercising perfect form within this interrogation. Refusing to talk greatly hinders the investigation as a whole and completely prevents the detectives from making progress,

all while being completely legal. This is why Detective Chamberlain is starting to appear visibly annoyed and decides to take a break from the interrogation, as letting emotions take control in an investigation like this can be extremely dangerous for the detectives. But, once again, this time alone can also give the suspects the chance to come up with a plan. Hello, I need to go.

You need to go where? Oh, or get ready for work in a little bit. Okay, we'll just have it seen. I'll get it for you. Okay. All right, thank you. Okay. Yes, sir.

The other hospital want to talk to me again? What's going? I'm just ready to go. Okay. And I'm not, I'm not ready for you to go yet, so you're not going to be able to go. I've got the things that I'm doing right now, so... Oddly, I just went to... I was going to go.

Oh, you're not. I can tell you that. Okay, no, you're not. But I'm at the same time. Okay. Perfect. Thank you. Oddly enough, in many other investigations like this,

now is around the time where an officer may attempt to come to a decision regarding the suspect. The interview is obviously at a complete standstill, and no progress is being made in any direction. The standard protocol would be to either gather the end. information needed to charge the suspect for a crime or release them based on a lack of evidence. But whether the detective thinks he can extract more information or if it was an ego-based decision, Grant is told to stay and continue the interrogation. The police then try to take some time to piece together more of the story, talking to witnesses to try and place Grant at the

scene of the crime. Despite his silence being perfectly legal and acceptable, it greatly increases the detective's suspicion towards him. Suspicion that's only heightened when Grant's wife says that his only alibi was that she thought he was spreading grass seeds at the time of James's death. All signs point towards Grant, and Detective Chamberlain goes back in for round three. Detective Cordero is talking to your wife right now. I talked to her a little bit, so I kind of got a timeline of where you were and where you weren't today. We all know what happened, okay? I'm not trying to get you in any trouble. I'm not trying to get her in any trouble. I'm not trying to get her in any trouble. You've got a little daughter, 16, who needs her parents.

Okay, I don't know if you've had a problem with this guy for a while, or, and this was an accident, or you maliciously chasing down, or what happened. But if I don't get your side of the story, I won't ever know. We're writing a book. You got chapter one, you got chapter two and chapter three. Chapter one is what happened today, what started out today, how your day started. Chapter 2 is what led up to the incident.

And chapter 3 is you telling me about what happened to lead you up to that. I know you went to eat, you know, out tonight. I know what you said at dinner. I know that you went to Lowe's afterwards. I know everything, but I don't know what caused the incident. And if I don't know that, I've got to assume the worst. I'll let you think about it. I'll give you one more chance here in a few minutes and I'm not going to talk to anymore.

I'm telling you that. Well, what happened? I know. We have witnesses that put you there. They physically ID'd you. The two cars that drove by, look, man, I'm not... I just want to know why it happened. I'm going to sleep good tonight regardless.

I don't think you will. At the time of the murder, when the two cars were parked up beside each other, the man in the white Chevrolet waived the passer bypassed before the gun was fired. As they passed, they were able to get a good look at the driver. And unfortunately, for Grant, it was Andrew Tillman. another resident of the small town who had known him since he was a child, and was hence able to undoubtedly place him at the scene of the crime as the gun went off. Both Grant and Chamberlain know, without a doubt, what happened to James.

But Grant also knows that his only chance of escaping is to continue to remain silent, and pray that they can't gather the evidence they need. The detectives are now forced to try almost anything they can think of to get movement out of Grant, starting with allowing him to see his wife and daughter in hopes that it will invoke some sort of emotional reaction within him and get him to talk. Your wife's about to leave. She wanted to give you a hug before she left. You're good with that. Unfortunately, even this doesn't work. Instead, Detective Cordiero decides to return alone with a more calm and sympathetic demeanor

in a second attempt to build trust with Grant. Often, male suspects are more likely to build a subconscious connection with female detectives due to them often thinking that they're less threatening and more understanding. Realistically, this is the last option the detectives have. Uh-huh. Get ready to that. It's not laying down up on that fence, but it's awful hard. Yeah, I don't know if you'll be any more comfortable up there than what you are now.

Can you help me understand how we got to this point? I don't know. I don't know. Man, I remember being on patrol and running into you one night. Help me out on a call. Back me up. And way back in, I guess almost three years now. Wow.

Two, two. Yeah, I felt my soul. Yeah, something like that. You guys were always good to help us, help me too. Yeah, absolutely. And he would always stick right there, man. Cordiero opens up with an anecdote about how Grant apparently backed her up on a case three years ago. Even though he doesn't necessarily remember it,

this will give him the idea that Cordero will be even more sympathetic and helpful towards him as he's done her a favor in the past. It also allows them to continue reminiscing about their time on the force and the people they've worked with, further strengthening the subconscious bond Grant will be creating. I just don't understand how we got to this point. And I don't mean either. You're alone and talk, don't me? I'm just ready to go to bed.

I don't blame you. Me too. Me too. And if we could do that, you just talked to me. Well, I just have to... Since you read those rides, I have to state, I have to do the ride. What's the difference? You know the difference? Regardless of something happened or not,

and if it did, if it was an accident, tell me. Like, let me... Help me help you. Like, I want to know what I can do or what happened today. Today, you'll explain it later. I don't know what happened today. I just need that.

You know, people are going to have questions. Your family. I have questions. Well, exactly. So. So why can't we figure this out together? Cordero is making a conscious effort to use inclusive language, such as, we will figure this out together.

This and her open and expressive body language are both techniques she's using to make Grant feel more relaxed, and as though he's part of the solution, not the problem. She's also making every effort to be nice to Grant in hopes that maybe he'll finally open up to her, or at least give her a way in. We can start from the very beginning.

I mean, I know you probably slept in because you work nice. I work nights for almost four years. I understand how that sleep schedule is. Yeah, I was sleep, so. I missed it. Did you sleep in today? Yeah. I bet you did. You could have got to work tonight, huh?

Yeah. Yeah. What time did you get up? New. That's usually what time I got up too. If you watch anything good on TV? Usually that's what I do. I'd eat and watch TV. I'll work myself up a little bit. Anything good? Same old stuff. Oh yeah? You watch the same episode? Or like, do you have a specific TV show you would wake up and watch?

Well, we watched the filming my wife always has it on a, I can't remember what it's called right now TV land. Oh, okay. I haven't really watched any of that. I couldn't even tell you what it was about because your wife liked that. Oh, yeah, I think she'd been to watch other stuff. It's better. That's like it. Yeah.

It might not be about the case, but finally, Grant is talking, and Cordero has found her way in. If she can keep the flow of this conversation up, she might be slowly able to extract information from him even without him knowing. Talking about specifics such as TV shows and sleep schedules, even that could lead to catching him in a lie, and placing him in certain places at certain times. But most importantly, she's building a connection with him and continuing to let him talk, which increases the chance that he either slips up or decides to make it easier on the detectives and answer a question. But predictably, as soon as Cordero started asking him to talk about the case again, he shut down once more, refusing to answer any more questions and staying silent.

I think you have a lot to live for. Beautiful family, who I've had the privilege of talking to. The way I look at it is you're a man. Men face their mistakes and they own up to them. And they figure out what happened and figure out how to solve it. move home. Like I said, I'm honestly here to help you. I want you to understand that. I wouldn't spend my time in here with you, but, and that's something happened today that needs to be explained. Can you make a mistake today?

Even after reminding him of his family, Grant doesn't move an inch. Again, realizing that his only chance of being let off is to not speak and hope they don't find anything. I like you. I like this fella that was a detective here. No, no. They all don't care about the indictment and stuff. And I just don't know how to, how to have this happened before being brought in an interrogate for something. So I don't know I don't care, but I just don't know how to be silent. So they're over here looking like a jerk.

No, you're not. Honestly, you were far from that. You're very polite. Don't you know why you're here? I appreciate you. and I'm just going to get a lawyer. Yeah, it's up to you. But obviously something's going on and I need one.

I just want to hear your side, but I want to get a lawyer. After hours of almost pointless back and forth, Grant finally asks for a lawyer, meaning the detectives can no longer question him and concludes the interrogation. But this is far from where the story ends. Between this interrogation and the final court hearing, Grant and his lawyer both realized that there was simply no way he was going to be released Scott Free. Not only was there a man at the scene of the crime who all but saw him pull the trigger, people were also starting to realize that he'd actually either been fired or resigned

from three different police force jobs before becoming the chief of police in his hometown. So on October 16, 2017, he pleaded guilty to the first-degree murder, but refused to reveal his motive, leaving each member of James Appleton's family without closure to this day. However, as Grant was being prosecuted, a shocking revelation was made that turned him, a murderer, into a senseless monster of a human being.

As his DNA was being taken, they realized it was already in the system, under an unknown name for a crime committed almost 20 years ago. In November of 1997, a teacher at Frank Tillerie Elementary School went to the teacher's lounge bathroom only to be met by a man brandishing a gun that forced her into a stall.

The man then raped her and fled, taking care not to touch anything or leave evidence behind, except for the he left on her clothes. Local police did everything they could to identify the perp, but after 20 months of effort, the investigation went cold

until 20 years later, when Grant Hardin's DNA was found to be a perfect match. And because Rogers' police had obtained a John Doe warrant back in 2003, allowing them to arrest an unknown suspect and bypass the statute of limitations. He was hit with the 14-year sentence on top of the 21 years for the murder of James Appleton. And as such, Grant Hardin was sentenced to 35 years in prison, meaning that he'll likely live out the rest of his life behind bars.