Dr. Insanity - When Evil Cops Realize They've Been Arrested

Episode Date: December 1, 2025

What happens when Evil Cops Realize They've Been Caught? Subscribe for More True Crime! Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

Evil and corrupt cops are everywhere, but what happens when they actually get caught? I can't believe what you're telling me. Here are five shocking examples of when evil cops realized they're going to prison, starting out with Detective Michael Neely, who was found in a hotel room sitting on top of his police chief's dead body. Mike and his chief Johnny Miller were away for a conference, and one night the two went out looking for a couple of drinks. But after a long night of drinking, Mike woke up in police custody and was immediately taken to the very very very same room he'd been interrogating suspects in for the last 10 years. But this time,

it wasn't him asking the questions. So tell me, Mike, you guys flew out of Tulsa? Oklahoma City. Oklahoma City. Okay. It's got to Pennsylvania City. Yeah. Was it a direct flight? Nope. Where did you guys? Yeah. And then from there, back to the hotel. That's it. Mike is keeping all his answers short, which is a good idea in this situation. But it's up for debate whether it's because he knows it's the best move or just because he's still extremely hung over. Get no frills delivered.

Shop the same in-store prices online and enjoy unlimited delivery with PC Express Pass. Get your first year for $2.50 a month. Learn more at p.c.express.coms or anything going on? The crowd just with normal dinner or what? Any drinks there or just dining with a couple beers? Was it a early dinner or late dinner or what? Very early.

It was the only thing it was dark yet. Tell me once, what you guys did once you got back to the hotel? It's about it, just was a football game. That was a Dallas game. Sorry. Mike said the night consisted of a football game and a couple beers. But in reality, things went much further than that. Tests reveal that both men's blood alcohol levels were around or above point three.

To put that in perspective, a level of point. 0.4 is widely considered to be a fatal dose at 0.3 will likely result in alcohol poisoning, a condition that can lead to death and loss of consciousness. Either way, both men will have been completely out of control of their own emotions and actions, likely leading to the horrifying events that occurred that night. Do you remember hotel staff or hotel employee coming up and you guys keep it down? I don't. I don't remember that. So Wood is the last thing you remember as far as that?

until the football game. I mean, I know you're asking me questions, but can I ask you a question? Absolutely. Okay, homicide. Who is dead? Dead. Dead. Yes, sir. I guess I probably don't have anything else to say then.

I've got nothing to say to you. Mike was initially told he was brought in for a homicide investigation, but only now told that it's his police chief, Miller, who died. Remember, Mike was so drunk last night that he almost certainly doesn't remember a thing. So knowing how bad his current position is, he decides to invoke his right to silence, telling the cops that he's got nothing else to say. But these are trained detectives, and they're about to put all their years of experience to work. Michael, you'd be in charge of second-degree murder.

Okay. I had no idea what I was in charge with. Yeah, you're in charge of second-degree murder, and your victim be booked in the Scammy County Jail with no bond. And we've already notified your wife. Okay. And the victim, you know what I'm assuming? Yes. You have any questions for us? I mean, I've got a thousand of them, but, I mean, really does make it.

I mean, sure it does. I mean, if you want to talk, we'll sit here and listen to you to talk. I mean, we'd love to know what the heck happened. I don't know. But, I mean, that's up of you. I mean, we'll answer your questions, you know, in return, so. I would love to know what happened to, you know. Well, I mean, do you want to continue to talk to us?

If you do, then, I mean, we'll tell you what happened. I mean, I would love, I would like to, I would like to know what happened, you know, because I'm telling you, I don't, I don't have any memory of any of this shit, and I, I'm shocked. Do you want us to, you want to continue talking to us? Yeah, I mean, I'll continue to talk. I'd like to know what happened. The detectives used two techniques here to persuade Mike into staying with them. First, they're reminded of the position he's in,

almost threatening him with the punishments he's immediately facing. Then they ask if he has any questions for them. Obviously, given that they know Mike has no recollection of the previous night's events, he'll be scrambling to figure out what happened, and if there's any way out of it for him. Imagine you woke up in a jail cell being told you're going to prison for killing your boss while blackout drunk. You do everything you could to piece together that night's events. Mike is now starting to realize that's his only option. Watch how his demeanor changes as he starts to almost join in his own investigation.

I'm trying to get you to figure out what's the last thing you remember. And if you, the last thing you remember was watching football, do you remember drinking? Yeah. Okay. Were you drinking the vodka? Yeah, I'll drink some vodka. can look up so well the first call came a little bit after six I believe one of the guys that uh the room next to you didn't say you guys were arguing just being

loud just laughing yelling probably so the next noise complaint came out about nine minutes till 10 this time he can't get anybody to come to the door all he hears he's knocking he hears just grumbling grunting uses his car to get in, is on the ground between the bed and the wall, you are sitting on his chest. His face is beaten, the statement that was given by the second noise complaint, could hear a mail saying, Mike, stop, Mike, stop, and then it just went quiet. Mike reiterates that he's got absolutely no memory of this and had no animosity towards Miller at any, point. However, he also doesn't show remorse at any point. He just sits there confused

and quite obviously only concerned for himself, repeating that he just can't believe what happened. The officers detail a little more about Miller's body and try desperately to get Mike to remember anything at all about the events. But he just sits there in complete disbelieve. I mean, you can't think of anything that would have triggered you. to jump on nothing I mean it's nothing it's uh

I believe anything else you got any questions for us Mike before we get you across the street no I guess I'm getting booked into jail and uh yep we're going to get you booked in the jail and put in a special housing

over there so that you're not back there with the heads and stuff and uh protective custody you're not uh you're not want to harm yourself for anything are you

no Michael Neely was indeed booked into jail and subsequently sentenced to life in prison on account of second degree murder. But Michael took all this news surprisingly well. He just sat there and accepted his life was basically over in complete contrast to the corrupt tactics of this police captain. Captain James French was caught drinking and driving and followed home by an officer. What followed was one of the most brazen examples of police corruption ever caught on camera. Stay in your vehicle.

back in your car. I'm... Drunk? No, I'm the captain. Huh? A what? Captain. A what?

Don't reach in your pocket. Get back in your car. Have a seat. I will. I'm not. You've been drinking the night? I just got a ride. You've been drinking the night, sir?

I'm a captain. I'm a police department. What police department? Oklahoma City. What division? Investigations? How much we had to drink tonight, sir. Please.

Huh? Turn my camera. I'm not turning my camera off. Okay. This guy isn't just drunk. He's absolutely hammered, even to the point where he thinks the camera can't hear him whispering. But despite the captain's please, the officer refuses to turn off his camera and continues with the investigation.

Go ahead and step out of the vehicle. You gotta be kidding me. How much we drink tonight, sir? I was at a poker game. Uh-huh. Because you're swerving all over me when you turn up here, you didn't use your signal. I'm sorry.

How much you drink at your poker game? Not much. Not much. How much is not much? I don't know. Beer, liquor. How many beers? Three or four?

Three or four? How long ago was that? It's been going on a while. How long ago did you drink your last beer, sir? What time is it now? It's zero 140. Midnight. You think you should drive it?

No, but I came from four blocks. Your mom lives here. I live here. You live here? Yes. Four to your rear of your vehicle. Okay. You got any weapons or anything on you?

I do not, sir. Louis must have been a strong few beers, as not only was he stumbling over his words, but apparently also swerving across both lanes on his way home. The captain is then searched and told to stand in the open where he's tested on his balance and sobriety. Hands down by your side, please. Look straight ahead and you see the tip of my pin, sir? I do. I want you to fall, tip my pin without moving your head, okay?

over here it's a little bit more level. I'm going to demonstrate for you first. While I'm demonstrating, I want you to stand with your feet together, hands down by your side just like this. Alright, sir, what's your name? Matt French. Matt French. Mr. French, stand just like that for me.

When I tell you to begin, okay, I'm just going to demonstrate for you first. I want you to pick a foot of your choosing. It doesn't matter if you're left or your right foot. I'm familiar. And I want you to lift it approximately six inches off the ground. And while you look at your toe, I want you to count by 1,000, it's 1001, 1,000, 1,000, 1,002, 1,0003, 1,0004, 1,0005, so on and so forth until I tell you to stop.

At any point in time, you lose your balance, your foot touches the ground. Just go ahead and pick your foot back up and continue to count, okay? Do you understand these instructions that I've explained to you, Mr. French? You may begin. One thousand. Just keep going. Sir, can't. I cannot, sir.

Please. I know you're aware of my body cam policy. You know I cannot turn out this body care. I do. But I'd like to talk to you. I can't be that, sir. Please. Are you going to do the test or not?

Will you please talk to me? I'll talk to you once for you go. You can turn it off, you can turn it on. I can turn it off once I'm doing my investigation. Okay. I'm a captain's police bar. I understand that, sir. I get that.

And I am a sergeant on this police officer. I am not. I am not. I don't show favoritism to anyone, regardless. I don't care if you're a gangbanger or the president of the United States. Sir, I'm not asking you for that. If I was to treat you differently than I was to treat like some Southside loco or some peto, how does that look on me?

Okay, I'm not asking for that. Because I wouldn't do that for any of them. Even as the captain begs him to turn his camera off and just talk, the officer stands his ground and states that he has to treat everyone the same or his job and livelihood could be at risk. He's showing a fantastic amount of integrity that unfortunately, we don't get to see too often, likely due to people like this trying to pull rank. They then continue with the third and final test,

involving simply walking heel-to-to-toe for ten steps. All right, any time you're ready, you may begin. One, two, three, four, five, two, seven, eight. One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine. Alright, go ahead and turn around for me, put your hands behind your back. Are you gonna arrest me, sir? Yes, I am. Can I talk to you?

Go ahead and put your hands behind your back, sir. Now that the investigation is concluded and the purpose placed under arrest, the officer turns off his camera and returns the captain to the police. police department. Not only was he suspended from his position as Oklahoma police captain, but he was also hit with the regular punishments for DUI, likely amounting to a small fine and a few months in jail, a punishment that Stephanie Lazarus makes look like absolutely nothing. After decades of investigations, DNA evidence revealed that Stephanie was very likely the culprit of a murder committed in 1986. Because of the high-stakes nature of the case, the detectives

made sure to meticulously plan this interrogation. was a really successful detective herself, and she had recently received recommendations for her good work on a theft case. So the detectives used this, and brought her in under the guise that they needed help with a case. I don't want to talk about this in the squadron, because I don't know who people are listening. And if we go to my side, everybody's always wondering what everybody else is doing. Okay, sure, no problem. Okay. An interrogation room is a strange place for such a conversation to take place,

so to put her mind at ease, detectives told her this was the place they least be likely to be overheard, as the case details were strictly confidential. Sherry Rasmussen's body had been found at her home after being shot three times. At the time, police suspected the murder was a result of a burglary gone wrong, but the case went cold when they couldn't identify the suspect. However, 23 years later, when revisiting the case, detectives found evidence that led them towards Stephanie, a girl who had been trapped in a love triangle with Sherry and her husband, John Rutten. So the detectives decided to bring up John's name to see how she'd react. Are you guys friends?

Close friends? Yeah. I mean, what's this all about? It's a case we're working on. It involves John and in there, there's notes and stuff that he knew you and stuff. Oh, yeah. I mean, good friends, um, lived in the dorms for, I lived in the dorms for two years. Was there any relationship or anything to develop between you guys?

Yeah, I mean, we dated, uh, you know, um, I mean, what's this all about? Well, it's relating to his wife. Both the detectives and Stephanie have tried to seem as friendly and relaxed as possible around each other. But Stephanie is obviously starting to get very anxious at this point. Even though the detectives gave a somewhat believable excuse, she is now in an interrogation room faced by two detectives being questioned about a girl she supposedly murdered 20 years earlier. Her breathing has become faster, and her language is defensive,

And her movements have become more erratic. And you're right... I mean, if you guys are claiming that I'm a suspect, then, you know, I got a problem with, you know, with that. Okay. Okay. So, you know, if you're doing this as an interrogation, you're saying, hey, I'm a suspect. Well, now I've got a problem with, you know, now you're accusing me of this. Is that what you're saying?

Obviously, you know about all the DNA stuff and things of the nature that, you know, gets done on cases nowadays. You know, if we asked you for a DNA swab, would you be willing to give us one? Maybe. Because now, now, now, I'm thinking I probably need to talk to a lawyer. Stephanie chooses to provide DNA evidence, hoping her willingness to help out would ultimately prove her innocence. But, unfortunately for her, just five minutes later, the detectives decide they've heard enough and put her in cuffs.

Months later, after a long and arduous trial, a decision was made by the jury. We, the jury, in above-entitled action, find the defendant, Stephanie, Eileen Lazarus, guilty of the crime of murder of Sherry Rasmussen. We further find the murder was of the first degree. Stephanie was sentenced to 27 years in prison after being hit with a single felony charge of first-degree murder. But to this next cop, Jalen Fleer, a single felony charge looks like child's play. Can I ask, is this something I might, I should have lawyers on? In April 2020, San Diego police received tips that,

a man had been engaging in with a local child. Two months of investigation led directly to Jalen and the mountain of questions that desperately needed answering. So I know that I have a lot to delve into, but I really want to get to know you first if you don't want. Yeah, definitely. Okay. So I'm going to lean back and get comfortable, just because, are you comfortable?

Do you want to take off your duty belt? No, I'm good. Okay. Can you tell me a little bit about your upbringing? Yeah, so I will ask what this is about? Yeah. Looking into some allegations that were made, it started with a crime stopper report, so we're just kind of going from there. We did receive a picture that, you know, when we looked into it, it looks similar to you.

So I don't know if you can take a look at the picture and just tell me if you've seen this picture before. I have like 15 million things here. As soon as the allegations are brought up, Jalen becomes visibly stressed. He leans forward tentatively in his chair, clasps his hands together softly, and clenches his jaw. It's obvious. He's worried about whatever he's about to be shown. The detectives have made it clear that he is not currently being detained and is free to leave at any time. However, she is making a noticeable effort to make him feel relaxed, using a bubbly and friendly persona to put him at ease.

So this picture right here. Yeah, that's definitely me. I want to gross one. Okay. So this picture right here, how old were you when it was taken? 20? Okay, cool. That makes it very easy. So as far as like the picture, so this photo came up in connection with some allegations about you communicating with a younger female on Snapchat. Okay. Can I ask is this something I might, I should have lawyers on? Jalen is starting to see more and more stressed. He begins to sway in his chair more and becomes more closed off with his answers. But the pressure he's feeling now is not.

nothing compared to what the detective is about to lay on in. Um, so, you know, this, like I said, this photo was, um, sent to this person. So they were in possession of it. And we can't find any connection or reason why this photo would end up with this particular person if it wasn't shared by someone you may know or yourself. I agree, yeah. My wife learned that. So, I don't want to know why she would share that.

So... Well, along with the photo came some additional information about your personal life. Okay. And based on some of the information. you share with me today, it seems to add up. Okay. The account that shared the photo and the information was called J-178211, a seemingly random selection of numbers,

until you realize that 17 was his college baseball jersey number, 82 was his high school jersey number, and 2011 was the year he graduated in. If this account was operated by a so-called enemy of Jay, they'd sure done their research. Jay, I'll be very honest, I just, I want to know the truth. Yeah, no, I've never even heard of that account. Okay. Have you ever shared any images of your with anyone?

Yeah. Okay. And how many times would you say you've done that? A lot. Did you ever share any videos of you having something with anyone? Anyone, no. I've always had personal videos of me in my life. I was hitting.

And my ex actually had a long time. Jalen then rightly decides that he's already answered enough of the detective's questions and asks him for a lawyer. However, unfortunately for him, he's quickly handed a search warrant, allowing the police to seize DNA, his phone, and his car. Police used this to gather a mountain of evidence against Jalen and just a few weeks later turned himself in. Jalen was charged with 20 felonies, including engaging in lewd acts with children under the age of 14, pandering children under 16 and engaging in the child under the age of 16. A few months later, he was sentenced to 12 years in prison, a fraction of the amount Grant Harden received after a murder investigation led to the shocking discovery of a crime committed over a decade earlier.

Grant has been apprehended on suspicion of murder, but the secret he was hiding would end up making him so desperate, he would try everything he possibly could to escape. On the 23rd of February, James Appleton had pulled into a parking lot on Gannridge Road to take a phone call with his brother-in-law. Suddenly, a loud banging sound was heard over the phone, and the line went dead. A passerby had spotted a white Chevrolet Malibu parked behind James' car that immediately sped away after the loud noise.

When the passerby went to check on James, he was lying dead at the wheel, with a gunshot wound to the head. Gateway, Arkansas is a small town of 400 people, so the owner of the Chevy was quickly determined to be Grant Hardin, a 50. year old police officer who had lived in this town his whole life. Later that night, Grant's vehicle was stopped at a police roadblock after taking his family out for dinner, and he was quickly brought in for questioning. But unfortunately for everyone involved, Grant's experience in law enforcement would prove to make this interrogation one of the most excruciating and difficult

that Arkansas police had ever had to deal with. I'm just like to Chamberlain. I know we have No, James, Chamberlain. Okay. Did you used to be a police officer somewhere? I could not ask you, but I wasn't 100% sure where I knew you from. But somebody said that you used to be a police officer at Gateway or something like that. Okay. The interrogation begins casually as Detective Chamberlain opens with questions about Grant's career. As they're both police officers, he assumes he can strike an immediate middle ground with him,

building trust between them and hopefully getting him to relax so he'd give up information easier. A strategy that he'd soon find out had the opposite effect. Grant has then read his rights, but decides this is where he's going to start making it difficult for the detectives. Here's the thing. I want to talk to you about what you've done today, okay? Can you just take me through when you woke up this morning to when you got stopped by the police out there in, what's not that road that you're on? I'm sorry, I'm going to drop. I'm not going to say anything after I've ever been read those rights yet. Okay.

I don't know what's going on. I have kind of sick leave. To what I'm here for in things. Up until this point, Grant hasn't been told what he's been brought in for and states that he's feeling sickly, given the circumstances he's been put into. Given his disturbing body language, he may also be feeling exposed and somewhat inferior due to being the suspect of a case instead of the detective for the first time in his life. So you don't want to explain what you've done today? Did you, is there a reason behind that?

What was the first thing said? I had the right to remain something. Okay. So you're telling the issue you don't want to talk to me right now? Okay, cool. Paint time right here for just a few minutes, okay? As is normal in a case like this, the detectives leave the room for a few minutes to talk about how they're going to handle the interview. And not only does it give them time to formulate their approach, but it also gives the suspect's time alone to worry about what could be going on and form anxiety regarding their situation. At the same time, though, it may also give the suspect a moment to collect their thoughts and generate their own.

own story and approach to the interview, putting the detectives on the back foot instead. By the way, I have detectives Cordare. I think we've met once before. Okay, so I don't know if I scared you at the beginning or what, but that's why I was trying to, and I can't, you see, you see the position that I mean, I can't tell you why you're here, but at the same time, I need to rule you out into something. Does that make sense? When the detectives reenter the room, they try an obvious. different approach. This time attempting to set Grant at ease, stating that they just need to clear him from any wrongdoing. And then, he's free to go on his way. Many people would, at least

subconsciously, be inclined to open up a little more in an attempt to get out of there as soon as possible. But Grant has other ideas. Would you be willing to talk to me about your day knowing that I need to rule you out of something? Or I'm just, if you didn't do anything wrong today, you have nothing to worry about. Yes, I would have liked to before the rights were read. So not knowing what's going on. Yeah, and you understand as a detective, we read those rights to everybody who comes in here. It's not just you. It happens to everybody that walks through this room and talks to us. As a former police officer, Grant is fully aware of all of this. He also knows that staying silence is a right and should not be used against him to imply guilt. So he continues to refuse to answer

any questions to try and shake the cops off. I guess my question is this, knowing what I just told you, I guess if it was me and I was, you know, if I was in your position, I'd be like, hey, James, I did this, I was at, or Grant, I did this. I was at, you know, here, here, here and here. And I would just be done with it. But at this point, like, I can't clear you from this because you could still potentially be a suspect. I don't know if I'm not explaining it, right, or what is going on here. Okay. Once the rights have been read, I have to have, it says I have the right to be silent. Yes. Okay. Just tell me this. I know you're a police officer before, right?

You're a police officer in Gateway? It's an easy yes or no. I'm being silent. Well, I can see that. We can do this all night. I mean, it doesn't bother me. You're going to continue to be a suspect until I find out otherwise. Unfortunately for the detectives, Grant is exercising perfect form within this interrogation. Refusing to talk greatly hinders the investigation as a whole and completely prevents the detectives from making progress. All well being completely legal. This is why Detective Chamberlain is starting to appear visibly annoyed and decides to take a break from the interrogation, as letting emotions take control in an investigation like this can be extremely dangerous for the detectives. But, once again, this time alone can also give the suspects the chance to come up with a plan.

Hello, I need to go. You need to go where? Or get ready for working a little bit. Okay, we'll just have a seat, and I'll get it. I'll get it for you. Okay. All right, thank you. Take for now.

Yes, sir. No, they're also going. Do you want to talk to me again? What's going? I'm just ready to go. Okay. And I'm not ready for you to go yet, so you're not going to be able to go. I've got other things that I'm doing right now, so...

I just went to... I was going to go. Oh, you're not going to go. Okay. No, you're not going to go. Okay. Perfect. Thank you. Oddly enough, in many other investigations like this,

now is around the time where an officer may attempt to come to a decision regarding the Sunday decision regarding the suspect. The interview is obviously at a complete standstill and no progress is being made in any direction. The standard protocol would be to either gather the information needed to charge the suspect for a crime or release them based on a lack of evidence. But whether the detective thinks he can extract more information or if it was an ego-based decision, Grant is told to stay and continue the interrogation. The police then try to take some time to piece together more of the story, talking to witnesses,

to try and place Grant at the scene of the crime. Despite his silence being perfectly legal and acceptable, it greatly increases the detective's suspicion towards him. Suspicion that's only heightened when Grant's wife says that his only alibi was that she thought he was spreading grass seeds at the time of James' death. All signs point towards Grant, and Detective Chamberlain goes back in for round three.

Detective Cordare was talking to your wife right now. I talked to her a little bit, so I've kind of got a timeline of where you were and where you weren't today. We all know what happened, okay? I'm not trying to get you in any trouble. I'm not trying to get her in any trouble. You've got a little daughter, 16, who needs her parents, okay? I don't know if you've had a problem with this guy for a while,

and this was an accident, or you maliciously chasing down, or what happened. But if I don't get your side of the story, I won't ever know. We're writing a book. You got chapter one, you got chapter two, Chapter 3. Chapter 1 is what happened today, what started out today, how your day started. Chapter 2 is what led up to the incident, and chapter 3 is you telling me about what happened to lead you up to that. I know you went to eat, you know, out tonight. I know what you said at dinner. I know that you went to Lowe's afterwards. I know everything, but I don't know what caused the incident. And if I don't know that, I've got to assume the worst.

I'll let you think about it. I'll give you one more chance here in a few minutes. Like, I'm not going to talk to you anymore. I'm telling you that. Well, what happened? I know, you know, we have witnesses that put you there. They physically ID'd you. The two cars that drove by, look, man, I'm not, I just want to know why it happened. I'm going to sleep good tonight regardless.

I don't think you will. At the time of the murder, when the two cars were parked up beside each other, the man in the white Chevrolet waved the passer bypassed before the gun was fired. As they passed, they were able to get. a good look at the driver. And unfortunately for Grant, it was Andrew Tillman, another resident of the small town who had known him since he was a child, and was hence able to undoubtedly place him at the scene of the crime as the gun went off. Both Grant and Chamberlain know without a doubt what happened to James, but Grant also knows that his only chance of escaping is to continue

to remain silent and pray that they can't gather the evidence they need. The detectives are now forced to try almost anything they can think of to get movement out of Grant, starting with allowing him to see his wife and daughter in hopes that it will invoke some sort of emotional reaction within him and get him to talk. Your wife's about to leave, she wanted to give you a hug before she left. Are you good with that? All right. What you do?

You do? Okay. I'll be back in a few minutes. Thank you. Unfortunately, even this doesn't work. So instead, Detective Cordiero decides to return alone with a more calm and sympathetic demeanor in a second attempt to build trust with Grant. Often, male suspects are more likely to build a subconscious connection with female detectives

due to them often thinking that they're less threatening and more understanding. Realistically, this is the last option the detectives have. All right. Get rid of that. Not laying down up on that desk, but it's awful hard. Yeah, I don't know if you're getting more comfortable up there than what you are now. Can you help me understand how we got to this point? I don't know.

I don't know. Man, I remember being on patrol and running into you one night. Help me out on a call. Back me up. Oh. It was way back in, I guess almost three years now. years now. Well, two, two, yeah, something like that.

Yeah, something like that. You guys are always good to help us, help, help me too. Yeah, absolutely. Brad, you always stick right there, man. Cordiero opens up with an anecdote about how Grant apparently backed her up on a case three years ago. Even though he doesn't necessarily remember it, this will give him the idea that Cordiero will be even more sympathetic and helpful towards him as he's done her a favor in the

past. It also allows them to continue reminiscing about their two. time on the force and the people they've worked with. Further strengthening the subconscious bond Grant will be creating. I just understand how we got to this point. Yeah, I don't mean either. You're alone in the top, don't you? I'm just ready to go to bed.

I don't blame you. Me too. Me too. And if we could do that, you just talked to me. Well, I just have to, since you read those rides, I have to stay, I have to do the ride. Well, what's the difference? You know the difference.

regardless of something happened or not and if it did if it was an accident well tell me like let me help me help you like i want to know what i can do or what happened today to be able to explain it later i don't know what happened today i just need that you know people are going to have questions your family well i have questions well exactly so so why can't we figure to stop together making a conscious effort to use inclusive language, such as we will figure this out together. This and her open and expressive body language are both techniques she's using to make Grant feel more relaxed, and as though he's part of the solution, not the problem. She's also making every effort to be nice to Grant in hopes that maybe he'll finally open up to her,

or at least give her a way in. We can start from the very beginning, I mean, I know you probably slept in, because she worked nice, I work nice, trust, I worked, for almost four years, I understand how that sleep schedule is. Yeah, I was sleep, so. So, I'm messed up. Did you sleep in today? Yeah, I bet you did. You could have got to work tonight, huh?

Yeah. Yeah. What time did you get up? Yeah, yes. That's usually what time I got out, too. If you watch anything good on TV, usually that's what I do I eat and watch TV. I'll work myself up a little bit. Anything good?

Same whole stuff. Oh yeah? You watched the same episodes? Do you have a specific TV show you would wake up and watch? When we watched, my wife always hands it on a, I can't remember what it's called, Right Now TV Land. Oh, okay. I haven't really watched any of that.

I couldn't even tell you what it was about. Is your wife like that? Oh yeah, I think she'd rather watch other stuff. It might not be about the case, but finally, Grant is talking, and Cordero has found her way in. If she can keep the flow of this conversation up, she might be slowly able to extract information from him even without him knowing. Talking about specifics such as TV shows and sleep schedules, even that could lead to catching him in a lie, and placing him in certain places at certain times. But most importantly, she's building a connection with him and continuing to let him talk,

which increases the chance that he either slips up or decides to make it easier on the detectives and answer a question. But predictably, as soon as Cordero started asking him to talk about the case again, he shut down once more, refusing to answer any more questions and staying silent. I think you have a lot to live for.

Beautiful family, who I've had the privilege of talking to. The way I look at it is you're a man. Men face their mistakes and they own up to them. And they figure out what happened and figure out how to solve it and move on. Like I said, I'm honestly here to help you. I want you to understand that. I wouldn't spend my time in here with you, but and that's something happened today that needs to be explained.

Can you make a mistake today? Even after reminding him of his family, Grant doesn't move an inch, again, realizing that his only, chance of being let off is to not speak and hope they don't find anything. No, you're not. Honestly, you were far from that. You're very polite. Don't you know why you're here? I appreciate you guys, and I'm just going to get a lawyer.

Yeah, it's up to you. But obviously something's going on and I need one. I just want to hear your side, but I want to get a lawyer. After hours of almost pointless back and forth, Grant finally asks for a lawyer, meaning the detectives can no longer question him and concludes the interrogation. But this is far from where the story ends. Between this interrogation and the final court hearing, Grant and his lawyer both realized that

there was simply no way he was going to be released Scott Free. Not only was there a man at the scene of the crime who all but saw him pull the trigger, people were also starting to realize that he'd actually either been fired or resigned from three different police force jobs before becoming the chief of police in his hometown. So on October 16th, 2017, he pleaded guilty to the first-degree murder, but refused to reveal his motive, leaving each member of James Appleton's family without closure to this day. However, as Grant was being prosecuted, a shocking revelation was made that turned him, a murderer, into a senseless monster of a human being.

As his DNA was being taken, they realized it was already in the system, under an unknown name for a crime committed almost 20 years ago. In November of 1997, a teacher at Frank Tillery Elementary School went to the teacher's lounge bathroom only to be met by a man brandishing a gun that forced her into a stall. The man then raped her and fled, taking care not to touch anything or leave evidence behind, except for the fucking left on her clothes. Local police did everything they could to identify the perp, but after 20 months of effort, the investigation went cold until 20 years later,

when Grant Hardin's DNA was found to be a perfect match. And because Rogers Police had obtained a John Doe warrant back in 2003, allowing them to arrest an unknown suspect and bypass the statute of limitations, he was hit with the 14-year sentence for his... On top of the 21 years for the murder of James Appleton. And as such, Grant Hardin was sentenced to 35 years in prison, meaning that he'll likely live out the rest of his life behind bars. Thank you.