Drama Queens - A Lot to Unpack • EP411

Episode Date: January 23, 2023

Between Lucas’ return, Haley’s truth, Brooke’s scheme, Dan’s charges and Deb’s escape there was a lot to unpack in this episode. But have no fear because Hilarie, Sophia and Joy were up for the challenge (and then some!) as they go Monday Morning Quarterback on one of the most action-packed episodes of OTH!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens.

all right guys welcome to the show we're going to blame michael lang no i'm kidding um this was this script was a lot um and so we're just going to dig in right let's go january 17th 2007 this was a whopper uh following his heart attack lucas returns to school hoping to rekindle his romance with payton haley learns that nathan was responsible for her accident brook and rachel hatch a plan to steal the next calculus exam while Dan faces murder charges and Deb breaks out of rehab. Lots of criminality in Tree Hill. Wait, if you had never seen this show before and you didn't know anything about it, you just read that synopsis. What would you think? I think I would have skipped right on by. Honestly, though, it's like none of this makes sense. It's so out there. This is one of those

confusing episodes. Also, sometimes I feel like the titles are taunting us, like everything in its right place. I'm like, listen, 46% of this episode was in the right place and the other 54% is very questionable. I agree. Split. But like, some of the scenes I thought were so great. I mean, listen, this storyline, you know, that you guys are going through, Joy, as Nathan and Haley, is extreme. And yet you two ground it. You make it work. There's, I think, great comedy. for me and DeNeil. I loved the mouth and Gigi stuff. And then, like, there are something.

But even, wait a second, because even the flashback again, as Lucas is, like, beginning to find the awareness. I loved the flashback with him and Keith again. I loved Deb trying to break out of rehab, just because Barbara's so great. So much of it was so funny. And then some of it, I don't know, what was it that irked us so much?

Was it just the dialogue? I had a really hard time watching Peyton and Lucas Kiss, and I don't know why. I just suddenly had the reaction of, I felt like I was watching my siblings make out or like my family kiss. I was like my hands up. Like, I can't watch it.

Kids on the internet. Love it. So don't say anything about it. You're both very attractive people. You're hot and you're good kissers. I don't know why I suddenly had that reaction. I think I just know you guys all too well. We're going to kiss our brains out.

And there are going to be some people that are like, yes, we've waited years for you drama queens to finally talk about the tithin. Well, it took us four seasons to get here. But I don't know. It is kind of funny, isn't it? Because when you know people so well, like at this point we'd spent what, like 15,000 hours together

or something insane and you just go, ah, I can't, I can't, I can't. Yeah. Like I felt that way. When you guys came to play, I can't remember what the relationship was at the moment, but when y'all came to play on Good Sam like I feel like it was right around when Edwin and I had to kiss on that show for the first time. And I was like

I literally remember we did the first day and they got real close to his face and I went oh I can't I'm sorry and I just started laughing I was like you're my friend's boyfriend like I know this is our job but I hang out with you every day and on the weekends we like go and eat crazy street food and like suddenly I'm supposed to be romantic with you and I can't do it. That's weird that's weird

It's so weird. It's so funny. Guys, if you can't be sexy with your friends, then who can you be sexy with? You know? That's right. Damn it. Okay, this episode, it's not like there was anything wrong with it. It was clunky.

It was clunky. Everything was not in its right place. It was definitely messy. Yeah. But it's an interesting thing to watch it and have moments where we're going, oh, well, that was ridiculous. Like the fact that you had to say, now I know why they call it true love.

And Joy, you did it in a way that worked? I said thank you for telling me the truth. Oh, that's what it is. Now I know why they call it true love. Did you die when you read that in the script? Yes, it's so cool. I think, in fact, if I know myself, I delivered it with tongue in cheek, you know, like playing with him. Like, no, I know why they call it true love.

trying to make like obviously this is the lamest joke ever so I'll lean into it and I'm sure it was one of those where he was like just give me one that's sincere we have the other ones you know and then they use that one but you know what it was cute but you did make it so sweet and yeah I mean for the folks at home Hillary literally started cackling I think I gasped I can't you know that when you read a line like that on the page you're like are these people fucking with me yeah like is this a thing I'm supposed to say and you had that and by the way way, James had that in this episode, the amount of exposition. He had to give you when he like ran you through the whole Dante story in top speed. And he made, he managed to make it emotional

and honest. And yeah, Hillary, I just keep thinking back to you years ago being like, imagine. Imagine good writing. Because sometimes they just, they have to get you to like fill a gap and I think it was I think it was a filler episode because the last one was Christmas yes and that's what it was it was like let's just remind everybody just warm up the kettle let's remind everybody who we all are and what just happened and where we are and then maybe the next episode's really going to be something better yeah I wonder if like in the next episode Lucas's Keith flashback will go a step farther and he'll see Dan or yeah like when when something will be revealed, but you're right. It is a catch-up episode. Even all the headlines being on Dan's

wall when Karen sees them, that's been happening all season with this was showing up in his house. I like how Karen and Dan both just know how to show up exactly where people are all the time. Guys, everything on our show is being repeated, right? It's like, didn't Nathan have the flashback storyline for a while there? And now Lucas has that storyline. Well, and by the way, now, much like Brooke last season, Haley's looking at Nathan saying, you have to let me in all the way in. And Brooke sobbed to Lucas and was like, why would you ever let me all the way in? And it's like, we are all going through these similar things, aren't we? Okay, I know we say that this lazy writing and blah, blah, there's a lot of that.

And there is sometimes. But you know what I'm realizing too is we're comparing this to the luxury that a lot of people have now with a whole series being picked up for a season or with cable where it's only nine episodes or 13 and then you know you know you know you pretty much right away if the show is popular and then you know you're going to keep going for a long time and so they're able to stretch out those storylines um i think with us because we were constantly on the bubble we were constantly being told oh you're about to be canceled you're about to be canceled i don't know that they really could plan long term long game storylines the way that we would love to see. And because there was no streaming, you couldn't like binge four episodes in a row.

You had to catch people up every week. And if they'd missed the week before, you had to do enough repetition that if they'd missed episode 10, episode 11 would make sense. Yeah. You know, it was just, you're right. It was a very different landscape. And I think a lot was also repeated because we weren't only doing 12 episodes. Yeah. You couldn't trim the fat. You needed to fill 22 hours. Yeah.

Which if they knew that there was not going to be a cancellation at any given moment, maybe they would have felt the freedom to stretch things out a little bit longer. But people were writing differently back then too, and especially for teen shows. It's just the trend wasn't there yet. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. It's interesting.

This is related to nothing, but it's, the fourth thing written down on my notes. And in all caps, it just says, Paul looks hot, X3, because all three of us said it. Oh, yeah. Paul in an orange jumpsuit. A little bit of scruff. Yeah. None of it was believable.

Like, whoever wrote this episode did not use her Google machine because when this lawyer comes in, he's like, you're being charged with second degree murder, and the trial's going to be in, like, a couple weeks. And I was like, on what planet? Like, you rot in jail for years before you get a trial. That's how they make all their money, the court systems. They make you come back all the time. And every time you come back, you have to file with a payment.

File, file, file. Yeah, once they get you in that system, they don't let you go. Come on. But it was very, why does Dan Scott have a sell by himself? Like, how much more interesting would it have been if he was in there with like some A cellmate? That would have been great. Could have changed his perspective.

on what Tree Hill really needed as mayor. Yeah. That would have been super cool. Or somebody he had screwed over once, maybe. Oh, yeah. But nobody wanted to pay for that. A whole season of Dan Scott in jail? Thrilling.

Yeah. Having to navigate jail politics. What if Dan Scott was in jail with psychoderic? What if they're sharing a cell? They're both violent offenders. That's right. Would have been great. Dun, dun, dun.

Again, you know, I thought, that Paul was playing all of this really beautifully, the culmination of the guilt Dan carries for Keith, when Nathan looks at him and says, you're not guilty of murder, and Dan says, I have sins to pay for, I belong here. This misdirect that we get to witness as the audience who knows all the secrets and knowing that the boys don't know yet, and that Nathan is really seeing his father changing even when

he cracks a joke about how you know your oh yeah your approval rating went up and and Paul is so plaintiff and says you know

yours is the only one I care about it's and you can see the shock on James's face he's kind of like oh yeah we're different and you believe that there's this potential for Dan to change

Karen sees him differently she says I saw someone I used to know. Nathan sees him differently. Oh, God, that was such a gross moment. Oh. And we know and they don't know. It's such a fun place to be in as an audience member to know a secret and to watch how it's, you know, pinging around in the pinball machine of the world of the show.

Oof, I like this part. Did you guys think that Dan and Karen were going to kiss? Oh, my God, I did and I was very upset. But like back when we were filming. Like, do you remember the panic that we felt as cast members? Like, you're not going to do that, are you? Like, I legit thought that our writers were setting them up to, like, get down. Yeah.

Oof. Yeah. That's, yeah. Well, and they wanted you to believe it. They wanted you to believe that there might be this redemption. And then they got to call it out in the last episode in this, you know, Wonderful Life universe with Keith. Yeah.

Like, you said it last week. Keith saying you don't get to come in here with my woman and my kid. Yeah. And we don't know what's going to happen. It's a really, it's a great amount of suspense that they've created for us. I'm down for a redemptive storyline any time, but I need it to really be realistic and pay off. And that's where the long game storyline comes in, where you get to really walk through somebody's journey of growth and healing and pain and struggle. and like coming out the other side of that.

And then that would be an interesting storyline for me, but not this fast. No, it can't be this fast. And I don't want to see it. He stayed in office. Yes. I don't want to see it be the redemption. You know, the woman changes him. He gets her and then he's different.

Like, no, he has to do work and change as a person. He's got to change as a person. And I think that's why it's triggering for us and upsetting for us to watch it. is we're like no no no no don't you put karen with that guy he's already hurt her he's hurt deb he's hurt so many people we want him to do the work but by the way that means our writers are doing a great job because they're making us upset and they're making us worry and and that's that's part of the drama of tv right so i you know they totally i want to be clear that i don't want them to make out but i'm loving the suspense because when she hugged him i thought she was going to kiss him and i didn't

like it at all. They underutilized Moira, though. I mean, looking at this season, well, just this season, really, it's like she just kind of shows up to offer advice, but this is an Oscar-nominated actress. She is so talented.

She's so capable. And I don't know what she had to do to manipulate herself into this storyline so that everything made sense for her that Karen would be involving herself again with Dan and all that. But I sure would love to have seen it. Well, her partner is dead. You know, like the love of her life is dead.

Yeah. Her son just had a heart attack. The girl that she's raised, you know, is like her son's best friend is going through all of this trauma. Her business partners on the pregnant team and like, you know, like there's a lot of fodder for a Karen storyline, but the only thing that our writers know to do with her, because she's not having sex with anyone. This is what I was saying, yes, is they just have her react, you know, do-eyed, like, what's going on here? What's going on here? What's going on here? And now I'm sad.

You know, like, there's not, if I were Karen, I would go full Michael Douglas in, what is that movie he does falling down or whatever, where he just, like, loses his mind. If I were Karen, I would go full falling down and just be like, you know what? I'm going to burn trick down. You know what? I'm good, you know, she's lost everything. and the pregnancy hormones have the, you know, potential to make her bananas.

I mean, the fact that she is pregnant with her dead lover's child is an insane thing to be struggling with. And I wish that they had let us see more of that for her. I will say the interesting thing that I think makes you catch your breath when you watch these scenes between Dan and Karen is on his redemption tour, he is trying to show up for her. You know, don't forget that he just made Deb signed trick back over to her. So she would have a lifeline, a business back, a much larger income, you know.

Yeah. He is setting up a safer container for her. And I think the reason it feels so icky to watch as an audience is because we know he's the reason she's not safe in the first place. But she doesn't know yet. she thinks that whatever's happening with Nathan and Haley, you know, maybe he's changing. Maybe he's seeing the ability to do it over again differently. But it's like, it's just the husband who's cheating on his wife but keeps bringing his wife flowers every day. And she's just like, oh, he loves me.

He's just like feeling it's no, because he's feeling guilty. It's like such a cliche. Ugh. It may look different. but Native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture.

It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history.

On the podcast Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I want to talk about the Nathan and Haley of it all. Okay. This is something that our show does that bugs me is, and maybe it's because Peyton's been targeted for this, but we'll have characters that come clean, right?

That say, hey, I've been carrying this. I want to tell you the truth. And then the people close to them get mad at them and say, why didn't you tell me the truth? And it's like, well, I just did. Yeah. It makes me nuts because in real life, it's like, it takes a second to build up the moxie to tell people the truth. And then the idea that you get mad at them for not telling the truth, am I the only person that feels that way?

No, I'm thinking about it as you're saying it. No, I think I've gotten like, when somebody's done that to me, yeah, I don't really get upset. Like, at the past, it's like, okay, well, let's deal with the problem we have right now. I'm not like going to harp on, unless it was a really long time ago. Well, I guess, look, I get it because when you're going through something to your point, you know that it can take time to process it, to figure out what the language is, you know, especially like as a person with anxiety who very much learned to deal with everything alone. It takes an unlearning as an adult to be vocal as something.

something is happening rather than once I've figured it out. But that's also my job as a person so that I can be in relationship with other people. My job as a person. It's literally my job as a person. I want to preface this by saying that I practice this, okay? Yeah. But I think that it's interesting because when you are on the receiving end of information and you feel like someone you love and trust has withheld from you, it can be very

painful. I understand why Haley is like, why wouldn't you tell me what was going on? And I understand that Nathan was trying his best. He needed a minute. He didn't want to admit failure. He, his ultimate fear is to tell the woman he's trying to keep safe that he doesn't know how to keep her safe. Like, I sympathize with it. But the reality is that it's very easy for us to look at things as black and white. But when there are things we're involved in, we know that everything is shades of gray and the targets are moving all the time. And I don't know. I agree.

The reaction of, why didn't you tell me immediately feels very reductive in black and white? I like that she didn't yell, though. I don't remember. I agree. scripted it. Like, I can't remember.

I mean, I guess they would have known me well enough by then to note. I'd just like that it wasn't a fit. Girl, the quiet fury of Haley, just leaning back on the pillows. Like, I can't. even look at you. That hurt. I literally wrote down. I was like, I need to learn that move. Yeah. You were like, one day when you become a mother. And then I'm going to look away. I'm just going to say that. It cuts so deep. It cuts so deep. Oh, that's my dad in me. That is fully my dad.

I grew up in, like, my mom was always the sort of the loud emotional one. And my dad was the quiet emotional one. And, oh, boy, I just remember, like, I remember one day when I was, I wouldn't go to, I wouldn't wake up. My mom had come in my room like six times. Wake up, wake up, wake up. Get up, get up, get up. Why did you wake up? I was like, not going to do it.

My dad walked in, I just heard my bedroom door open, and it was his footsteps, and all of a sudden I was covered in cold water. Oh, Jesus, toy. I opened my eyes, and he had a blender full of cold water, and he looked at me, and he goes, get up. Oh, my God. The other room. I mean, that's his cold fury. He wasn't mad at me. He wasn't.

It was just like, oh, no, no, we're not doing this. Wake up. And that's the way he. So I think I got that from him because I don't pour water on my daughter to wake her up. But I do. But I could if I wanted to. But she knows that I'm like not fucking around. So I like the quiet fury as well.

But sorry, we got off track. Haley, I do like that she went to Lucas's because I understand as a teenage girl still. She's a teenage girl and hormonal because she's pregnant. Yeah. And hormonal because she's a teen. teenager. And yeah, to feel like you, the person that, God, and she's in this cast and the whole reason. Yeah, it made sense to me that she would have been like, you know, I just need a minute. I'm going to go. It totally makes sense. By the way, if this happened now, not young as a teenager,

not as a pregnant person, I would be like, what the fuck is going on? Yeah, what the actual. And the work you do to, like, see from other people's perspective and, you know, come to a conversation as your highest self matters. But I absolutely think her hurt and feeling of betrayal was justified. Yeah. I like what I like when I think both people are right. That, to me, is good story. I see this as like a leaveable offense, right? Not because he lied.

Really? The line means zero to me. Because he didn't really lie, he just omitted, you know? Yeah. The thing that freaks me out, like if I'm in Haley's shoes, is that you make bad choices. And I'm getting ready to raise a child with you. And you consistently make bad choices. And you might be tall and have a nice face, but...

Does he consistently make bad choices? What are some of the other ones that he's made? He traded the car for the bike, which was stupid. Okay, okay. He's just, like, where's the dumb kid and then where's the, like, character flaw? He drove into a wall. Oh, right. Okay, now, yes, to revisit the whole, like, he's on suicide watch issue, yes.

He is still making choices. He's not stable in a way that I would want to raise a child with. Yeah. But see, this gets to the crux of that conversation, right? is if we were looking at just a guy with Nathan's kind of rap sheet of behavior on paper, we would all be like, black and white, nope, absolutely not. But because we know him and we're attached and we're emotional, we go, is he so bad? And you understand that things come from pain and that things come from lack of experience

and that things come from, you know, the reality of when you're trying your best and you don't have a good or a bad decision to choose from. you have a bad decision and a worse decision to choose from. Like, and that's where the humanity is. And I think that's why I really like it. Because the truth be told, if somebody wrote down on a piece of paper, all the choices that we made and put our life down on paper and handed it over to somebody, they'd be like, uh, no, sir.

Nope. Well, Joy, that's what the tabloids are. That's why they've been so mean to us for 20 years. Well, hey, listen. Fuck them all. But you know what I mean? Like, there's a humanity element. But then there is also like deep character flaws.

So I think finding the line is hard. But this plays exactly into your line. Like what Haley says, she's like, why is it so much easier to forgive a stranger than someone that you love? Yes. And, you know, a stranger is just kind of this tent, like they're an imaginary thing

that you can impart morals on. And you can create whatever fairy tale you need to create in order to make sense of things. But a real person, it's like... It costs you something to forget. give someone that is close to you, like a real wound? If it's just like if it doesn't,

oh, I forgive you. Okay, then we never have to interact again, stranger. Yeah. And to your point, when you can impart morals onto a stranger, like Haley does with Dante, she says he was a bookie, but he was someone's child. You know, he was a criminal, but he had parents. And when it's someone you love and you have deep relationship with,

it can be so much harder to say, I have to accept your truth as true for you. I have to believe that you were doing the best you could. And I have to hold true at the same time that your best really hurt me. Your best really hurt me. How do you honor your pain and someone else's struggle at the same time? that takes so much more complexity, vulnerability, humility, honesty than it does to go, yeah, I know that guy might have been a bad guy, but what if his mom was nice? Yeah.

Like, that's so much easier. Could you get to imagine them? Oh, your best really hurt me. It's the hardest thing. That feels like slimy. Yeah. It's so hard. And when you're, like, that's a marriage.

When your marriage partner, your best really hurt me. That's so hard to process and deal with. Yeah. What do you do? And, you know, we talk about what we learn. And as you age and you learn things, we talked about this last week. You have much clearer perspective. You have like a better spidey sense when someone's motivations aren't good.

Yeah. But you do lose some of that innocence that allows you to be so purely in love, so enormously trusting. Yeah. And it can be really different. to carry truth, reality, experience, failure inside of the container you share with the person that you love the most.

This name of your next podcast is going to be containers. Containers. Everything is a container. But yeah. Like, it, how do you maintain loving someone so purely when they've also hurt you? Oh, that sounds like, Peyton struggled this episode.

Everybody leaves me. A little bit. That's a nice segue. Let's get on to her. Everybody leaves. All right. Well, look, I'm just going to address the DMs that I get where girls are like, you defend Jake and you defend Nathan and nothing Lucas does is good enough.

And here's what I'm going to tell you. He looked really handsome in this episode. And also, he said some very sweeping things. And we kissed a lot. it was grand gesture but here's the thing that's crazy why are people yelling at you about shit that just hasn't happened to your character yet

thus far Lucas and Peyton but thus far Lucas and Peyton have been a mess he's been a cheater he's we've talked about how he has you know struggled and joy you know I don't remember what episode it was but you were like yeah like teenage boys don't know how to make good decisions

like that's okay guys it's the character arc They don't get together till season four. So how were we supposed to talk about their great relationship in season three? Well, I love that in two episodes, he went from saying, oh, when I said that I loved him. Joy was like, he sounds like Daniel Day Lewis in this episode. He was like Last of the Mohicans. Oh, we'll find you.

I'm coming for you. My heart attack. No matter what happens, no matter where you go, no matter what comes between us, I shall ride through heaven and hell. find you. Yes, yes. Oh, my God. Yes, he did. It's a lot. And I like it.

Peyton, however, needed a pause button. I, because we watched the episode, I have zero recollection of this. Because Peyton's being very standoffish with him. And then, you know, the second scene that Peyton and Lucas have together, she's like, I don't like PDA. Like, if you could just stop. I know that I've been pursuing you for so long now. don't kiss me in front of people.

That made me cackle. That was very funny. But that was also just such a good window into you. Yeah, and I both were like, that's you. Totally. I love you. Don't touch me. Yeah.

I really love you so much, but don't. Anytime Jeff and I are on a red carpet, you know, they take pictures and they're like, now kiss, kiss. And I always look at him and I'm like, are we going to do that? And he's like, yeah, we're going to do that. And I just always, maybe I am Peyton Sawyer. I'm like, oh, cool, hear me. You're like, I don't want to.

Where do I put my nose? I don't know which side. I'm mad at these writers for the way they handled this. Peyton and Lucas finally coming back together. Like, this is a storyline we've been waiting for for four seasons. I've cried a lot about it. And the fans, the fans have been waiting. It's like building up, building up.

And it's like, it's over in one second with some confetti. And now they're like, oh, ho-ho-home, boyfriend, girlfriend. Now they're in a couple little issues and like, oh, it's cute. like where is the long I want to see the longing I want to see the buildup of like you telling him and then him desperately wanted to tell you but he's too wrapped up with trying to solve this you know his uncle just got murdered and he woke up in his heart attack and he's like how do I tell her what if I leave her like what if something happens to me I can't tell her that I love her back everybody leaves her and so now there's another thing that's in between them like why didn't you have to go to see a cardiologist to make sure his heart was going to be okay hello and she wants to go and he says no because he's like if I get bad news I can't get it in front of her like yeah could have been we yes we could have really drawn out the like longing no the epic romance of this like everything he said I loved and I wanted to hear it but I wanted to hear it with like I wanted to hear it after a battle

of like trying to get to each other through all the things that they're in the way and then finally they get to each other and the light is you know streaming the way cameras catch sunlight and you're like outside and it's just something that's It's so beautiful, like the little sun glare on you, and he finally says it all. And it's just the great music. There it is. There it is. I want to know Nathan and Haley, you know, switchfoot song in the rain. Like, yeah, we needed that.

I'm so mad at the notebook moment for these two. Yes. Because their love story is the drawn out. It's the years of longing and the wrong partners and the stuff. It's the notebook, but we don't get the kiss on the dock and I feel robbed. No. Yeah. I just sat at his bedside in the hospital.

hospital during this coma, he opens his eyes and then there's like a time jump and it's like I didn't see him for a whole week after that. Why are you at school, babe? Girlfriend. Wait, what? No, listen, okay, but to that point, I do feel Robb. Now that you've brought it up, where is my Switchfoot song? Like, yeah, yeah. What is the song that would have played in the scene that we have imagined? I'm not cool enough to know Peyton and Lucas's music. You tell me. Because the first song that came to mind, as you're talking about, I'm sitting here nod in my head. And going, yeah, yeah, that's right. Yeah, she's right.

And in my head, the song that plays when Lucas and Peyton finally kiss with that spot of sunlight you described. Yeah, the slayer in the lens. From the darkness, I believe in a thing called love. Just listen to the rhythm of my heart. I believe anything called love. Oh, my God. Isn't that queen?

No, that's the darkness, man. It is? I thought that was queen. Yeah, that came out. like during our show and it was such a, such a, that feels too fast. No, that's what it, but that's what it needs to be. It needs to be like, like fast. Chad's wearing all these emo clothes and the wristband and the eyeliner. We need an emo pop punk love song. I'm trying to think about what was out in 2007. I don't know why like Massey Star is coming

to mind for me. I mean, that was the late 90s, but Massey Star, yeah. Did the Twilight series come out then? We were all listening to it then. Massey Star was on the Empire Records soundtrack. Maybe that's why, because it feels so nostalgic to me. 2007. Oh, yeah, because it was Liz Fair.

What was that? Fade Into You was the Mazzy Star song. Yeah. Like, I want something emo and romantic. Oh. I'm looking at the Billboard top charts in 2007. We're going to find this song. What do we got?

I mean, it's all like furgy-licious and like, hey there, Delilah. It's not, it's definitely not my humps. That is not the look-as-and-pate song. But if someone could cut it together just for our enjoyment, okay. Oh, please. The scene we always wanted. You're right, though.

No, guys, it's not happening. All the charts. It got rushed. You know what I wrote down? That's what I thought you. Hillary, when you said, it's just so sweeping, I wrote that down and then under it I wrote, it's a grand gesture on steroids.

Yeah. They've pumped it. they've pumped it up too fast and weirdly it kind of steals the payoff from us and we've been waiting four years for this because it's always been

torrid, it's been bad, it's been affairs that Alicia Key song came out we couldn't have afforded that. Which one? No, definitely. No one. Maybe you guys didn't get a song because we spent all our money on Led Zeppelin in the car crash. Yeah, that's probably why. We're still making up for lost time.

But you deserved one. Well, I like Peyton's point. Like, to be fair, I don't think I necessarily understood what she was saying when we were kids of like, no, listen, everyone leaves. So I'm having serious problems attaching to people. I definitely feel that at this age. Like, I really limit who I interact with on a daily basis because I, everybody dies, you know? And so it's weird to evolve into Peyton. as an older woman.

But I like that that was her trajectory, and I like that this little boy is trying desperately to get her to calm down. And the only way he can do it is with his tongue. You know what I like, though? Because to your point, you wouldn't have had the language then. You know, she's trying to say this thing, but now you are at your age able to offer the perspective

in a clearer way. You can relate to it more clearly. I like that they're both a little fumbly with it because they are kids. And I love that the only way he knows how to explain it to you is to say, but I came back for you. And it hints at that idea that he had an experience in that in between, that he had, you know, something happened. He's told you about Keith.

And he's saying, no, I chose this. I chose, I chose life. I chose to be here. And there's something I think, you know, for as imperfect or, you know, unclear as it might feel, this idea that he gets to look at her and say, like, you're the reason I want to be here. Oh, that is sweet. Yeah. That's beautiful. I get it.

It's really beautiful. And I think it, maybe it hits deeper for me in that moment and even hearing you talk about loss now because earlier in the script, when you guys are on the quad and he's talking about the experience with Keith, you know, Peyton says that she feels like her mom and Ellie contact her from the other side. And then the lightness in the scene is, I think of dreams as emails for ghosts. Yeah. I loved that. I loved that. Who does that? It was so nice to see them bond over this thing.

And so interesting because we talked about it last week that it comes in this week. I know. Was that weird? But that would have been a fun. That would have been a fun relationship building 2 a.m. conversation. Remember staying up so late with the person you had. a crush on and just like talking for hours and hours and hours on the phone in high school like that phase where it's like okay we've admitted we like each other now we have to survey

let's tell each other everything everything oh it's so romantic and sweet well between all these like heavy heavy storylines haley's fighting for her life on crutches crying at karen's house Payton's being a weirdo. There's Brooke and Rachel in cats, dudes. So, like, I need to get to that part of the episode because that is a delight. The most entertaining thing on camera. I loved it so much. And the fact, and you said it, the fact that DeNeil and I look like twins in this whole episode.

The whole episode. Our outfits are the same. Our jackets are the same. Our hair is the same. I love it. And, God, I just wanted more and more and more of it. It's so fun. It's so fun.

And you guys are different enough that it does. feel competitive on camera. Like, I'm not, it doesn't feel like a carbon copy. Like, you guys have such different personalities. You're really complimenting each other. It's just so fun. And it's interesting that these two girls, you know, who've been judged and, and who have these really strong identities in their own rights can kind of say the things to each other that if anyone else said it, it would be so offensive. But when they do it, it's so funny. Yeah. Like when Shelly the clean teen says, you know, our doors are always open. And Brooke says, just like Rachel's legs. But it's like, weirdly, it feels like a, it's like an inside joke for her and

Rachel. It's not a dig. And, you know, Rachel's saying, yesterday you were a slut who was bad at mouth and today you're a virgin with an A. Look, it's all so funny. It's so funny to me. I loved watching you. You two came around the corner in those catsuits and I just died with the belts the jingle jingle of the belt to defeat the purpose of being stealthy it is so funny those little 60s and that's what we did we found those like kind of vintage inspired belts in the go go boots i i forgot i mean i have obviously such a sense memory of doing that being in the school with daniel you know how funny it was to run into principal turner like the comedy of that i remember but i forgot some of the physicality and I almost choked on my coffee when I say Brooke it's weird to talk about myself

and the third person but like as Brooke when I stand up in the cat suit and just start pawing at my whole body looking for a pocket I was like oh my God we don't have pockets like I forgot about that having to put the test in my boot was such a it was such a pleasant surprise that's so fun I loved it. That's what I put it. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional.

It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornell. who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream.

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast. or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, you guys are climbing through the school and Deb is climbing out of rehab. In her own version of a black cat suit. This whole time I was like, is rehab like mandated? I'm confused how they can keep an adult there. Unless it's like, this doesn't add up. That was a great little surprise at the end, too.

Also, that slow fall for Barbara. repelling down the side of the building and then winding up with her feet in the air stuck was so freaking funny and yeah the cutting from brook and rachel to deb and all these women sneaking around and being so bad at it was gorgeous i loved that and when prince the principal like confronted you guys this the look on your faces like oh why are we here also why was clean teens meeting that late at school i hated the clean teen storyline so much i hated it so much i hated it so much always. Yeah.

But I'm glad that they... No, all of it, it's just so gross. It's just so like, hell, I know that there was an element of this that was reality for you in school, but it went so camp. Yeah. It's just annoyed me. It's like, I know a lot of Christian kids who were cool. And yes, they wanted to be virgins until they got married.

They had a particular worldview that they subscribed to have worked for them. That's great. But they weren't like fucking weirdos. No. No, they were hot. By they, I mean, we. No, I was in, I mean, obviously I started clean teens just with my pack of friends at parties, but it wasn't just about virginity. It was like we also didn't smoke and we didn't drink. And it was like clean across the board. There was this scene in D.C. that was like the straight edge scene. And so this was like straight edge light, very light. Yeah. And we also had fellowship of Christian athletes. And that was where like the football players who were good boys went. went to prom with the president, a fellowship of Christian athletes. He was so hot. And so it was

like not not weirdos. It was like the captain of the football team. And, you know, like the girls on the volleyball squad. And it was kind of this cross section of the school that just needed to, I don't know, have a same thing. But it's so low hanging fruit to tell the story this way. Like there are so, why are kids like this always represented in media like corny weirdos? Well, and what I have an issue with that goes farther than that is why, because let's not forget, we were in the early odds. We were in the era where, like, Britney Spears was being accosted by journalists about her virginity. That's right.

And Jessica Simpson to. The virginity or the sexual behavior of teenage girls at all. At all. Why were we talking to them about this? Like, it's none of our fucking business. It's not appropriate. No. And so it's so crazy because I'm watching that scene where,

where Rachel's like, well, we can still broke ourselves, right? And Shelley's like, oh, yeah, totally. Do it all the time. I just got like a flash to like the things. Everyone shall remain nameless. Don't worry if my friends at home are listening to this. I know they're scared. But like the things they used to tell me they were doing to not have sex.

I'm just like, oh my God. No, it totally defeats the purpose. It's so gross. It's wild. But you're right. Just the policing and the monitoring of girls. sexual growth and behavior as teenagers.

It's so creepy. Oh, it's so creepy. And this was a thing, like, after our show, too, because I remember, like, purity rings were a big deal where I never had one. And I was, like, the purest of the pure. Like, I was so square. Same. But I never had a purity ring.

But I did have a subscription to Brio magazine. Oh, my God, I forgot about them. It was like a girls Christian. It's like a Christian girl's teen magazine. Like, if you weren't allowed to get YM or Cosmo Girl, you got Brio from your grandmother at Christmas. God, you're pulling these references out. I forgot about these. And, girl, there was an abstinence poster that came as like a pullout from Brio magazine that I definitely had on my wall until I was 15.

And then we moved and I was like, I don't think I'm going to put it back up. But I'm still going to like stay true. So when like the Jonas brothers came along and like my. Like Hannah Montana was on TV and they made such a big deal out of the promise rings and the abstinence rings that those kids were all wearing that was such a big storyline like all these star children wear promise rings and at that point we were much older and I just remember being like oh shit they're still doing that to these kids still doing it like making them market the purity campaign well and what's gross about it is they make them market it so that they can poke and poke and poke and poke and poke and keep asking, well, have you had sex now? Have you had sex now? Have you had sex now? What about today? We should not be talking to teenagers about their sex lives unless we're talking about sex ed, teen pregnancy prevention, STD prevention. Like, let's be honest and educate kids, keep them safe. Let's not like, I don't know, it just feels so creepy and voyeuristic to me.

I don't like it. Yes, yes. As a community, everybody monitoring it, I think is weird. I think I understand, you know, everybody comes. from different worldviews. And so I understand in that community, if there's a worldview that you think is really helpful and good, you would want to support that. And you would want to talk to other people in the community about that. And so I understand where the idea of the posters

and the idea of like, it's cool, don't worry. Like you're not going to be an outcast. You're not a freak. There are lots of other people like you who see the world this way, who want to do this. We're with you. We're on your side. I support that element of it of the community of people

who have that world. you, and that's how they want to conduct themselves. Sure. But when it crosses over into the policing of it, and that's when it's, like, with a shame, as a virgin in high school, anytime I heard that there was like a cool girl, like celebrity, that either was also a virgin or just, like, not promiscuous, like, didn't have a lot of partners. Freshman year in college, Angelina Jolie was on the cover of Rolling Stone, and everyone

was shocked because she was like, oh, no, I can count all the sexual partners I've had. Like, I don't even need a whole hand. Like, I've had so few. And as like a turbo virgin, I was like, oh, my God, I'm not a freak. Like Angelina Jolese, you know, square. And so it's the, it's the caricature that we use on our show of like, if you're a virgin, you're a fucking weirdo. That's what's bothering me about. Yeah. That's what bothers me. too. And by the way, guess who's coming to be a hot boy clean teen who everybody is like, let's take his virginity. Like Stephen Coletti comes in as a clean teen joy. That's right. That's where he comes from. And it's all about like, oh my God, Chase is so hot. He's so cool. But Shelley is like

a lame freak. Like, I'm not here for it. I don't like it. No, by the way, Shelley's hot. Elizabeth Arnwall takes what's on the page and she's so earnest and she's so like, guys, this is going to be awesome. And I'm so glad that she came to play the part because she's... Me too. Yeah. Like, only person could play that off. And so Liz and I had been friends for years already. Is that why she got on the show?

Did you call her Boston? We had a conversation on an airplane where he's like, okay, if we're going to make fun of your high school club, who do you want to play you? And I was like, my friend Elizabeth is the only person I trust to play that part. Because she, I knew, wouldn't just make fun of the clean teen. she would add an element of like, no, we're hurt kids and we're trying to, like, make a safe space. She's a good actress. Yeah, she's so talented. And her and Danielle were friends because they did that movie 10-inch hero together.

We're DeNeill & Jensen got together. Oh, you did? Yes. That's so funny. Yeah. Oh, my gosh. That was an epic summer. That was a wild summer.

But we were all already, like, buddies. So it made it fun, you know? It's so cool. it's so cool and there's something too that I love you know it's it's where just the particulars of humans can add to casting because Elizabeth has a face like an angel like she just she has like a like a doll face yeah yeah and there's something so that adds like just because of the way she looks there's like an added level of just like sweetness and light when she gets excited in these. scenes. Like, when she's excited to welcome Brooke and Rachel into this, it feels great. Even the next day when they're nervous to approach the table and they see Principal Turner and, you know, the unsaid thing is, that's our alibi. We've got to go sit down. Like, Elizabeth's beaming smile killed me. She's pumped. Just so happy that we're coming to sit. If you could convert

a bad girl? Like, what bigger trophy? You were so powerful. You caught the big Fish, man. You got Brooke Davis. You got the class president. Yeah. Oh, my God. But also for Brooke, like, to strip away the caricature of it all, I do appreciate the notion that you always have the opportunity to reinvent yourself. Like, let's say Brooke legitimately wanted to swear off boys for a while. Like, she's just shed up on a teacher, you know? It's, it's, there's levels of grossness. that have happened for Brooke over the last year where, like, if she legitimately wanted to just hit restart, I appreciate that avenue. I do too. That would have been nice if they had not made the group so corny if they had actually made it like, you know, a little nerdy, but like the authentic group of kids who like really wanted to do something good.

Yeah, but I do like where the journey is going to go because in a way, though it isn't her intention, she does get that chance. And I think on a... Is that what happens? What's happening? What's coming up? Yeah. Like, Brooke really, there's a, there's a whole storyline for her with clean teens and Chase. And it's cool. Okay. And I think what I like about the potential of it and Hill, what I really think I'm responding to and what you're saying is it was so cool in this era to just like, just like, kids and everyone was a stereotype and everyone was like a you know this person was kind of a caricature and whatever and the idea that we could choose to offer people a new path any time and not judge them for it yes you know yeah like like if we were going to do this storyline today

I would love it to be like look no harm no foul like you get to be who you are but if you want to do something different who says you can yeah that's so interesting I like setting that example. That's great. I love that Brooke isn't, Brooke isn't judging Shelley the way that she was being judged too. I think that's also a great example. Yeah. Yeah. I like that, you know, even in the conversation they had back at Trick episodes ago, while I didn't like the way that they, you know, the writers handled it. I like that Brooke will just show up and be like, hey, tell me your story. Yeah. You know, that's, we get. get these like moments i think in the way that we fought for each other as as girls on the show we get

these moments of like oh if we had had a little more that it would have been really nice you know it was really nice and needs an honorable mention i know we're i know we're long today but that scene all everything mouth is going through in this episode is so sweet lee is so good and that scene that opens tight on him and pulls back and mouth is in the bed in between Lucas and Haley and they're talking about relationships. I loved that so much. Yep, loved it. I loved being able to do that scene because we never got to do stuff together, Lucas, Haley, and mouth. Yeah, that was so, it was so nice to see. Also, I just loved being back in Lucas's bed, like the three of us. Yeah. You know, it felt like, hey, just a reminder, Rivercourt days,

reminder of where we all started. I love when our show does that. Just the little Easter egg reminders of where we started. Yeah, I want to see that childhood photo of like the three of you. Yes. That would have been fun. Babies. It was so sweet. And what I like about where they're going with mouth is they're foreshadowing the change ahead.

Gigi's saying, look, you're a senior. You're going to graduate. They're beginning to foreshadow that we might not want to let go of this place. But it's going to let us go. we're going to get pushed out of the nest here. And I just thought it was a beautiful device. And even the way that he, you know, being Sweet Mouse, wants to fight for her. And then all her friends come to sit.

And they actually cast like 14-year-old girls. Young girls. You said that. You're like, look, they surrounded her with little girls. So she looks young. And you could really see the difference. And you realize that, you know, she's just on the beginning of this journey that is coming to an end for the rest of us. And I don't know, it really hit me. It made me feel very emotional. And

and I just thought that they did that really well. I'm glad you called that out. That's good. It's my little honorable mention. Honorable mention. We got to start adding that into our episodes. Yeah, it's kind of cute. Listener questions, spin a wheel and honorable mention. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia. And on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we, to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly like very

traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for like hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive

while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. question. We do. You sure do. What is it? All right, Liz wants to know, where on earth did all the characters keep their clothes? Peyton and Lucas both have closet doors wide open with desks and computers inside. I don't know why I've never noticed this before, but I'm laughing so hard about it in season four. That is so true. It's hilarious. No, and in Nathan and Haley's apartment,

anytime she went to the closet to get something, it was always just a hole in the wall. It was so small, Like a little towel, like a linen closet. Yeah, we almost never wore the same thing twice. Right. It's like each of these people needed a warehouse for their closets. We actually had a warehouse. That's where it was a closed. Uh-huh.

Uh-huh. I mean, to be fair, like Peyton lived all by herself. She could have just had a whole other room that was closet. Yeah, I'm going for that. And Brooke, too, well, except when she moved into Lucas's house. But wait, where's Brooke living now? She's a Rachel's. And apparently they're just buying doubles of all the same things.

Does Rachel have parents? No. No. I mean, my God. Nobody has parents. We just have big houses and no parents. That's where all our clothes go and our parents are. She just called it orphan town.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. Like, what if Peyton's just wearing all of her mom's clothes? That lads a layer of sadness. Her mom's not wearing that hot topic stuff. You know what I like? of Peyton's clothes. I like that Lucas is dressing more and more like Peyton. Him now in the leather jacket. Oh, yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. It's a very Ellie look.

Yeah, I was super into that. I don't know. I really like it. I like that they're starting to twin a little bit. Yeah, you called it. His collar was popped up like Keith's. Yeah. A little bit. And yeah, the necklace and the shirt with the pattern on it and his hair and the eyeliner. He's definitely going full. It suits him. I mean, I think, this is Chad's sweet spot, particularly on camera, way better than like jock or, you know, it's like that's his sweet spot, this emo boy for sure. Emo boys. Yeah, I just love that it.

It's like not only are they coming into their relationship, but you feel like their relationship is helping Lucas come into his own in a way. Yeah. And it's just like a nice thing to see, especially having had a character who kind of vacillates between knowing who he is and losing his way and having his moral core and then kind of betraying his values at different stages and having to figure out, you know, who he wants to be and what he believes in. Yeah.

It's like you not only see him getting the answers in the way he's behaving, in the way he's being with Peyton and the things he's saying, but like you see it in his identity. And that is such a fun aspect for me of our job. is the way you get to build a whole person and a whole life. And, you know, we talked about how we'd not had a great wardrobe person for a minute, but obviously we have somebody coming in at this point who's really getting the undertones. Brooke and Rachel are dressing the same and Peyton and Lucas. Like, they're identifying people's relationships in visual cues now, too.

And I just think that they were really, we got lucky and they really started to nail it. It's like in theater. Like in like Rogers and Harveston musical where the couple of, all wear the same color. It's like, we're the blue couple. We're the pink couple. Aw. I like it. You're the couple in leather. Leather. Sign me up. Y'all, you want to spin a wheel. We should spin a whale. Get it. Who's our most likely to this week? Hmm.

Who's most likely to let their kids watch One Tree Hill in the future? Dude. I don't know. Probably not me. Maria doesn't want to watch it. I don't think. She's like, whatever.

It's lame. Yeah, Gus is kind of repulsed. Like, he's kind of like, guys, enough. Because it's, like, no one thinks their parents are cool.

Yeah. But also, Joy, think about your visceral reaction. Now four years into friendships, watching Chad and Hillary Kiss, you were like, no, no,

they're my siblings. I don't like this. like you can't be that you can't be the viewer in that moment imagine how it feels for your kids no your kids are like who is that guy you're making out with hold on why are you wearing that come here girls come here george is here right now she's winging at me she wants me to like put something on TV come here do you want to watch one tree hill she just shook her head no and looked so sad. No? You don't want to watch mom on TV? Guys, she just wants something else on her iPad. So there's your answer. It's not the Morgan House. These kids just want, literally anything else on their iPad. That's bad.

Who would it be? Who would be? I mean, have Barbara's daughters watch the show? I don't think. They probably have, but I don't think so. No. Really? I don't know. I think any of us would let our kids at a certain point. But I don't think. I think. I don't know. I think any of us would let our kids at a certain point. But I, It's more of a question of whose kids actually would want to watch the show. I also, guys, like, I love doing our rewatch with you, but what I'm not going to want to do is rewatch it again. Like, we're doing it. So I don't know. One and done. Like, Joy, can you imagine watching this episode today and then Maria gets home from school and is like, Mom, what episode are we watching?

You're like, I can't do it. I've done this already for two hours. Like, so I don't know if we would do it. do and watch and create. But yeah, I do agree if they wanted to. If like, I don't know if in junior higher high school them and their friends got into it,

I'd probably be like, cool, I'll have a party. No, I'm ban in that because I know if these little punks sit down and start watching our show, they're just going to make fun of me. And I don't know. I am too fragile for that right now. I can't do with that on top of everything else. No, I can't think of anyone.

Yeah. Like Antoine's kids, they're too cool for us. You know what? I would like to know, though, remember that sweet woman who we met with her daughter on tour? Who named her daughter? Sophia? Yeah. They were so cute.

But, you know, she was obviously, she was a big fan of our show, and now her daughter's a big fan of our show. And, like, I don't know, I would love to hear from some of the fans who watched it and now who watch it with their kids. I would love to know what their experience is because it's too close to home for us. Your kids don't want to watch you kiss some guy. who's not their dad, you know, on TV. I get it. But I would love to know what that second life experience with kids is for our fans. So send us some DMs on the Drama Queen's Instagram, guys.

Tell us some stuff. So what's next week? What do we have? Next episode, season four, episode 12, resolve. Resolve. Well, it's a one-word title? Yeah. Wow, it's like the Madonna of our episodes.

We never have that. Or Shakira. Bye, guys. Thanks for hanging out. See you next week. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens, O-T-Harendh.

Or email us at Drama Queen's at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. We're all about that high school, drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride and our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens. Smart girl, rough girl, fashion, but you'll tough.

Girl, you could sit with us, girl. Drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other Native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts This is an IHeart podcast This is an IHeart podcast.