Drama Queens - Aaaand Action! • EP505

Episode Date: May 29, 2023

The Director of this episode Liz Friedlander joins the Queens!! It’s hard to believe this was the first TV show she ever directed because the episode was a masterpiece from start to finish. As the girls recap, so many things come rushing back.  Plus, find out how Liz landed the job and what went on behind the scenes in the making of it. This episode takes you back to when everything just felt right. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

First of all, you don't know me. We're all about that high school drama girl, drama girl, all about them high school queens. We'll take you for a ride in our comic girl. Drama girl. Cheering for the right team. Drama queens, drama queens, smart girl, rough girl, fashion but you'll tough girl. You could sit with us, girl. Drama queen, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens, drama queens.

You guys, we have a very special guest this episode. We never get to do this. We have the woman who created this episode. Liz Freedlander is with us. And, I mean, I had no idea that this episode was your first episode of television. I can't believe that. I had done a movie, and I had done a ton of music videos and commercials. But, I mean, television is, you know, it's its own thing.

and I really had no idea how it worked at all. There's a lot of on-the-job learning, yeah. And they threw everything at you. Sophia, this was a huge episode. Yeah, they were panicked because it was not like on stage. They were like, how did you wind up with this one? Yeah, you got a big one. All right, what happened?

Okay, hold on. Let me give the folks the synopsis. Okay, friends who are listening at home, you are with us for Season 5, Episode 5. I forgot to remember to forget. It aired initially January 29th. 2008. And as Hillary mentioned, we have Liz Friedlander with us who directed the shit out of this episode. And we actually are getting to do something with Liz that we've not been able to do before.

First of all, we haven't had directors of our show, you know, aside from Paul on. And because Joy's not with us this week, Liz actually is joining us, not just for the episode, but also watched it with us. Yeah. So there are things that will never be fit to print, but I wish y'all could heard us giggling like a bunch of schoolgirls figuring out what was going on behind the scenes I really have to echo you know Hillary's point that this is such a huge undertaking this episode the the level of basketball that you had to shoot the flashbacks all the traveling I mean it's just unbelievable and since it was your first one you said they were freaking out I'm like did they give you any help?

they just throw you in the deep end? Did you get a mentor? Like, how did you do this? I mean, I think, you know, when you're hired, you don't know what script you're getting, right? Like, you get hired so far ahead of time, and they're like, you're doing episode five, and nobody knows what that will be. And then I got the script, and I remember the producer from Wilmington calling me and being like, it's really big. It's all locations, not on our stages. Like, are you going to be okay? And I said, I'll figure it out, you know. And I just figured it out. You know, I mean, it's, I had done a movie before, so it's not like I'd never directed.

But, you know, the thing with being an episodic director that's so weird is it's like this weird puzzle of how do you fit in and stand out at the same time? Because you need to make an episode of a show that looks like the show. But then you want to make like a great episode. So it's just kind of navigating that and realizing that you don't have the control that you have of the director. on a film at all. Well, for you to do something that is totally your own, but also still fit into the overall look and feel of the show, this flashback episode was great because you got to do some different stuff than what we've been seen. You know, it could look different. We're seeing L.A. We're seeing New York. We'll get into how New York looked. But you get to

create worlds that the audience isn't already familiar with. And so there's a little bit of freedom there. And I think you did a really good job of making these places feel like totally like it felt like Peyton was across the country. I felt separate from everyone in this. So we're talking about what is the synopsis? Flashing back three years. Nathan and Lucas win their college two championship game. I can't read. That felt like a whole movie all by itself. Missing Payton, Lucas flies to L.A. to surprise Peyton, but the trip doesn't go as planned. That was a whole little movie all by itself. And it ends in a breakup after Lucas proposes.

Lucas finds out his book is going to be published and flies straight to New York City where he reunites with Brooke, who is trying to decide the fate of closeover bros. Again, its own little movie there. You're really dealing with like three very separate chunks here. And then the current day stuff. And Chad was in like everything I noticed. Yeah. Like he really got like, I feel like almost no days off that time. Yeah.

Yeah. What were we doing? Sophia, you were sick. Oh, I was so sick shooting this episode. I mean, you can hear my sinus infection. Just like there's not an ounce of air getting into my nasal passages at all. It's all mouth. I remember you, Sophia, falling asleep in between, like when we were shooting Lucas in his hotel room,

I remember you sleeping in your chair and then powdering your nose because it was so red. from being sick. Like, you were sick, yeah. I was so sick. Everyone was calling me Rudolph. And I was like, I can't help it. I should have been doing a Kleenex commercial that week. I like that you played it off as kind of tipsy.

You're like, I've just been drinking champagne. And we've just gotten really hammered tonight. Yeah, it worked for that. Pre-champaign, it sounded weird. Post-Champaign, it kind of just made Brooksie more drunk, which was excellent. Liz, I'm so curious because you did something technically. And I want to know, like was 2008 a moment where cameras were changing? I have so many questions because your basketball scenes for that championship game feel different.

And we've shot so much basketball on our show and we've seen so many of these things. But you had camera in with the players. Like it felt like a camera was mounted on someone running through all these athletes. What was that? Or did you just say, I want these games to feel like Friday night lights, like those football games feel? Kind of, you know, it's, I mean, I had done a lot of stuff because of like music videos, like the visual stuff for me was I had been working on for years and years.

And I remember it was just like saying, like, I wanted to go steady cam on the court. Yeah. I were like, we've never done that. And I was like, why not? You know, I mean, look, it takes longer because you can't really shoot multiple cameras because then the steady cam is in everything, right? You can't point a bunch of cameras at the same time. And then we also shot a lot of that stuff, 90-degree shutter,

which makes it feel like a little more sharper. Like Friday Night Lights did that a lot in the football stuff. But I remember doing that. I mean, it was a long day that day. But it was like all in one day. And the crew was so excited because they're like, we've shot so much basketball, but we've actually not done this.

And then they were like, what about this? What about that? You know, and then we did a lot of Zoom, did a lot of handheld. And then we just kind of tried to make it really kind of adrenalized. Yeah, it was always so separate. It was like crane shots before. So there was a wideness to it.

The getting into it felt kind of dirty. It felt like grown up men playing basketball instead of little boys. Yeah. You're in the thick of it. And the stakes went up. Like you, I caught myself holding my breath. And then when you drop back to wide, when Nathan sinks that winning shot, it feels like magic. Because suddenly the audience is blown backwards and you go, oh, my God, is he going to make it?

Like it's all in slow-mo. It's so cool. And luckily, James actually makes a lot of shots. So you can just shoot him. You know, he was good. He's so good. Where did you learn so much about camera, though? Because, you know, anytime we have someone on, we like to know kind of what your background is so that anybody

else who wants to follow in those footsteps has a road map but you did come in knowing a lot about what shots you wanted to do and the technicalities of it and that was really attractive to me to see a woman come in and be like I know what I want do this um yeah there weren't a lot of us then um you know I went to film school but I really I so I did that but I also was a PA forever and during music videos and when music videos were like big, you know, it was like David Fincher directing music videos and, you know, Michael Bay and Michelle Gondry and like these incredible big scale directors. And I was just like a PA just constantly kind of watching. And then I kind of went up from there and then I became an editor and then I became a director and kind of came, I mean,

really just like the old-fashioned apprenticeship like started picking up trash. but those are yeah the trash part's important and and that I think probably was the reason why you created such a sound set like everybody was on equal footing on our set when you were there there wasn't that weird like hierarchy thing um because we always were trying we've had Lasseter our PA on the show we're always trying to champion everybody on their way up but when you have leadership on set that sets that tone it makes a huge difference and I I personally want to know what music videos you worked on because that is the shit that I get pumped about. Yeah, we're going to need a video list, please and thanks. I mean, I did like over a hundred of them. And in fact, I think that's how I got this job because, like, I met with the producers in L.A. who didn't really want to meet with me. And then they were like, you worked with you too?

You worked with REO? You worked with Blink 182? Damn, you know? And I think that. plus it was like the right time right it was season five so it was like yeah the show had been running long enough but it was right before everybody on the show started to direct you know it was right before all the writers and editors uh yeah and actors of course directed so it's like there was this weird little window um but yeah I shot a lot of music video wow you need a best of box set

you know what I mean just like all your music videos kids don't know what those are anymore I keep trying to explain to my son what MTV was and he's like mom what like it's so cool You're like, it's literally a miniature movie about your favorite song. Mm-hmm. They were the coolest. Do they still make music videos? I think they do. You know, I think they're a lot.

They're either, I feel like they're super polarized now. Like, they're either for zero money and shot on an iPhone or, like, corporate sponsorship, and they're really kind of, like, elongated commercials. It's like a Mountain Dew commercial. Yeah. Awesome. And then you get the artists, like, the rare ones, you know, like a, Beyonce who can make a visual album of her choosing.

And that truly is an art film. Yeah, it's a whole movie. God, I just, I loved when we knew our favorite bands were dropping videos. And it was like, coming Friday. It was such a big deal. And it was so cool. Yeah, these kids don't know what they're missing. We'll show them.

We'll show them. Liz, so when you say that the producers didn't want to meet with you, was it your agent that was pushing? you to try to come on our show? Because certainly you did not watch this. I watched it before I got the meeting. But I wasn't watching it necessarily before. I'm old.

Listen, we didn't watch it either. That's why we're watching it now. Yeah. I think, you know, I think what happened was the producers called my agent wanting to meet with somebody else. And she said, like, he's never going to meet with you. Because I think it was somebody super huge. and she said you should meet Liz and they said

oh we don't really and they're like just meet her just like just say hi you don't have to give her a job and then I went in for a meeting and then got a job how quickly did they offer it to you they offered it to me while I was there girl that feels good and in the room offer is really nice in the room offer yeah okay so

knowing you were going to go in for the meeting how many episodes did you watch to have some sort of talking points about it I mean, I love a study assignment. So, you know, I watched the pilot and then I think I watched like a couple of season two, a couple of season three. And then I watched season four to see like where we were up to. You watched the entirety of season four? I think I watched most of it.

I mean, I like, but I can't. I'm a nerd. And so I can't go in unprepared. Like I just, it's not my style. But then you ended up directing a number of. episodes. How many did you total? Four. And were they all? I mean, season, this is season five. So you did seasons four and five or did you come back later too? I'm sorry, so five and six. Five and six and then

I did two this season, maybe one in six. And then I had a baby. And then I think I did one and seven maybe. you were one of the first people I think I told I was having a baby because you had had a baby and I didn't know anybody else who'd had a baby and I was like, I'm coming out to L.A.

And I don't know, Liz. Like, I don't know what to do. I knew that you had just had one and you were like, it's going to be fun. Should you go to Cedars? Amazing. That is amazing. You'll survive. I'm curious.

Liz, what memories do you have from this episode. I mean, aside from me being sick as a dog, like, what do you remember about your first trip to Wilmington? I had never been. And I remember thinking, God, I can't believe we're going to fly to New York

and then to L.A. And, like, because I read the script and they were like, yeah, no, you're not leaving Wilmington. That's hilarious. We're going to go everywhere. I know. It's like, it's amazing. So I remember, like,

and I remember. I remember having lived in New York and lived in L.A. being like, oh, really? We're going to do this all here and being really nervous about that. And I'm trying to think of what else. I just, in some ways, it's funny, in some ways, the location thing was easier for me because I'm used to, like, scouting my own locations, like, rather than plugging into something that exists and, like, lighting that exists. It's like that I knew how to work it that way. I just remember a lot of scouting, a lot of night shoes. like Central Park was at night, Sophia, like that. And I remember loving the crew so much and like really having big advocates. And like once I got in there, like really having people on that crew who would like help me do what I wanted to do

and like got excited about doing things a little different. Yeah. Oh, Peter Kowalski, our DP. Peter is the best. And Matt has the camera operator. Oh, my God. Matt is such a good steady cam. He's so good. Dacious.

They really were such a great crew, and I think that they understood young people, and they championed young people. Because they'd also just witnessed all the Dawson's Creek kids, like, go off and blow up, you know? And so our crew was lovely, and you weren't much older than us. And so for us, like, it was this cool, big sister coming in. that could speak our language and didn't talk down to us and asked our opinion about stuff. And it was, I mean, it was thrilling for me because I was in the process of like,

oh, I'm going to start a production company. And here you come and you're like, yeah, I'm good at this. Whatever. Watch this. We're going to put a steady cam on the court. Was there anything in the script that stood out to you like, oh, God, I got to do that.

I mean, I always, like, still to this, day i get nervous about like heart to hearts you know what i mean because like as a director well you kind of like have to get out of the way and in a certain like you're not going to like shoot the crap out of it and like move around or come up with some insane blocking so um but i just thought you like i remember reading stuff in the script and being like i don't know how this is going to work and then watching rehearsals and being like that's better than it ever had a right to be like it like just the amount of skill with which you guys can pull stuff off. I remember being incredibly impressed with.

I remember shooting Hillary in that hotel room set, which was tiny. The Beverly Hilton. The Beverly Hilton. And it was a lot of pages and like a tiny, I think, three wall. Like, I don't know if there was a fourth wall in there. It was so sweaty in there. Yeah.

I mean, we can get into storyline. Because for us, like, having new blood come in and rehash the same old relationships again. You know, this could have been an episode where it's like, really, we're going to do the Brooke Payton Lucas thing again? Like, we've done that to death. And it felt fresh and like it hurt, you know? Yeah.

And you would have never known that we did that for, what, two years, three years? Just crying about each other. Yeah, what does it start with? The episode starts out with, you know, once we get into the flashbacks, you're seeing what's been happening. And that was such a cool thing that I thought was so special about this season. The fact that we got to go back. And out of nowhere, you never knew it was coming, you would just see where these characters had been. And finding out that Lucas has been living with Nathan and Haley to help with Jamie.

You know, seeing Jamie as a baby and him. I'm starting to speak. All of that stuff colors in our modern tree hill world in such a cool way. And even the way that they tie this, you know, intense wanting for a family, Lucas has, into the confetti flashback when you guys did confetti in the game you shot Liz. And he's watching, you know, Nathan and Haley and the baby. And it was all just really cool. I don't know.

I felt like I was in on a secret or something watching these things and being like, and that connects to this and oh my God! You know, it's neat when all those little puzzle pieces started coming together. That's so daunting. Like, hey, this show's been on the air for four years. Here's a massive episode.

And also, you have to tie it to all of these little Easter eggs from previous episodes that you weren't here for. Like, what? Did somebody make you like a, did they compile those scenes for you or make you like a visual, you know, bored with screenshots stills of those scenes to be like, this is what it looked like and this is what we're matching? Or did they just say good luck? I think I got like, I mean,

this is so telling of the time it was. I got like a book of CDs of all the episodes or like DVDs rather. DVDs, which the other day I found one and my daughter held up and said, what is this rainbow donut. Like just no idea what it is. But a rainbow donut. Wow. But in the script, it did, I remember, said, like, and he looks at it, and we flash back to episode, you know, parents. Like, it had a lot of that in the script parenthetically. So I remember going back and looking at that. Yeah. It's so much.

You know what made me uncomfortable? I don't know if you felt this way as our incoming director. But something that made me really uncomfortable was that everyone's 19 and we're just like, yeah, you're going to be the first ever student coach at this college. You're going to start a high-end Couture line and start your own magazine. More people want to have kids. I was like, what is happening? These people are 19.

Like, I almost spit out my dinner when Peyton said, we're 19, Lucas. Just one more year. I was like, what is it happening? Just one more. And then Peyton, the one person who actually has a job that is a 19-year-old job, gets crap from Lucas for having that job.

Dude, listen, all I'm saying is that Peyton Sawyer was on the right track. I am like, one, I love how insecure Lindsay is. Ha ha. I got you. This is like the third episode in a row where she's like, no, but really, are we good? Are you sure you were unhappier then? And I love it. But Peyton has been so rational, like so absolutely rational.

Yes. She's like, no, I can't take off. of work. I didn't know you were coming to town. Yes, I have to leave dinner. Yes, I will meet you later. What the fuck is this ring? Like, she's the only person making sense right now. Truly, and I got to say, I've so been enjoying everyone's relationship dynamics this season. So seeing the writers put Lucas's character back into like early Lucas, where he's really like, I hate to say it, but I have to. It made me sad. like manipulative and this whole thing like oh well if you're not going to give me this relationship

the way I want it then we're over marry me or I'll leave you like it was so intense I was so glad that Brooke brought the humor in it later and was like are you stupid like you stormed LA and you went all crazy on her you lunatic I was like okay great at least the girls are being rational here because this feels like a lot of energy well yeah Liz as like a young woman how do you look at a script like that and say, oh, I have to keep this person endearing. I have to make this make sense. Oh. I mean, look, I think in that, I just identified with Peyton Moore. You know what I mean? I think, but it's funny, I don't know. It was extra mean to me this time. Like, I think being younger, it was mean but less mean. And now with perspective, I was like, that is, like,

you come in and you love bomb her. And then you give her an ultimatum. And then you're pissed when the ultimatum doesn't go your way and then you pout and then you try and get with her friend like it was just like it was just some really bad behavior um when everyone knows Peyton's trigger is people always leave so then he leaves her and she's just like he leaves the CD on the thing to be like to be clear I'm leaving that was mean and I don't want to think of you songs to make me think of you I don't want them oh it was so brutal Woof. Also, like, what did you say when we watched it, Hillary? When Lucas kisses Brooke, and you were talking about how the lines for me are about high school. And it was so spot on. Oh, yeah. Yeah, Brooke Davis, I was just talking about like the supremacy of Brooke Davis because the rejection was delicious. Because, you know, younger Brooke Davis would have been like, this is everything I've wanted. You know, like, Lucas pick me. and like he's kissing me and whatever where we are going to be a power couple when we grow up we're the we're the match and she's just like hey here's your ring take to adville in the morning it's been real this is in high school anymore

I love that she says you're not going to see me for a while like she's like we're not yeah yeah no like I super love you and you're my friend but this is an unacceptable way to treat a person. And yeah, I think really interesting that she gives Lucas the medicine she needs. You know, I haven't found my person, so I'm going to go build my work. And maybe you should do the same. But if you do it, at least you know who your person is and she'll have some space to come back to you. And it's interesting, like the sort of levels of how you can use work as armor. And I liked that there was a distinction between the two, even though she was sort of talking herself into making this big career choice

by talking Lucas into focusing on his. It's just kind of neat. Well, and I like the synchronicity of like everything happening on the same day. Because I do, like, for me, that's how life works. It's like all of a sudden there's this random string of coincidences. And everything's happening all, at once and you're in flow and you know you're getting all those like phone calls and lots of big dramatic things happening in your life and then you go through a lull and Peyton's in a lull

for sure but Brooke isn't and Lucas isn't and Nathan isn't and it's really exciting for everyone back home and that feeling of apartness like hurt like Liz you really did a good job of not letting Peyton bemoan her life at all. Like, she thinks she's doing it. But it looks really sad. That mail cart. We pushed that all day. I think we did, yeah?

We had one hallway to call Los Angeles, I think. Yeah, one hallway, one little office. We had five scenes. We couldn't have found a more modern home to shoot New York. And for Brook and Victoria, that southern gothic place that's supposed to be a New York apartment. And it's clearly like a gorgeous, you know, downtown historic mansion was so wild. Liz, I can't even imagine for you, you poor thing. Like, I bet somebody was just like, well, this could be, you know, some fancy pre-war building on Park Avenue. Yeah, they're like,

it's like a townhouse, right? I remember pushing back and pushing back and then getting like thwacked. down for that, you know, because I directed movies, right? So movies are a director's medium. TV is a writers and producers medium, really. And so I came in like, I think we need to look for. And they were like, yeah, no. Yeah, it's all about company moves. We're not going to move. Nah. Sorry about that. But seriously, I love how square Brooke Davis is because they've got her living with her mom in this like goofy house that's supposed to be a townhouse apartment, whatever. But also she's like, we're in Midtown. Woo!

Like, no 19-year-old hangs out in midtown. No. No. No. She'd be downtown. We would have been at Butter. In this era, we would have been, like, out at the New York clubs. And they had us at, like, an oyster place on the river.

It's so funny. Like, remember Bungalow 8 and, like, oh, man, there were all the places. It was so fun. We would have been in meatpacking. Whoever was making these decisions. Yeah, the meatpacking district had just gotten like super sexy. Yeah. It's still a little dangerous back then.

Yeah. I know. It's really so silly. But that's a really interesting way that you put it, Liz, is that it really is, you know, sort of the writer and producer medium because they are there week to week. And the directors are coming and going. And I think that makes it even cooler to see. you know, the mark that you were able to make on our show.

You really put your stamp on it, and it's just fun. On the flip side of all of the Lucas manipulation, we've got this, like, creepy foreshadowing that's happening with Nathan. Oh, man. Where it's just, we know where Nathan is present day, but we're seeing the seeds get planted. Why do you tell us Nathan to be careful? If you're not careful, your temper will be.

all that you have left. And for him to say you can't just play better, you've got to live better. And he really gives him that beautiful speech about, you know, who you want to be. And that if he wants to live this thing down, it's going to be about how he lives as a man. And it's so beautiful, I think, because we've talked about this before, how you can really make allowances for people's failures. their mistakes when you know them because you know the scope of their life you know that the people you love are so much more than their mistakes and we make a lot of allowances the characters in

this show for each other for growth and failure and all the things and i think it's a really beautiful thing to encourage and then what i thought was so accurate and honestly like kind of stung to watch was the way that boy was screaming at Nathan and the way he was talking to him because that's the way people heckle you when you're any version of famous people just they throw darts in your face they say terrible things to people like i just watched some friends you know of mine get heckled a couple weeks ago because they stood up for their kid and like it it was i don't know it's just gross and i i guess maybe now that we're all older that sort of stuff feels more personal the way that strangers like to isolate and then inflate and not let go of

anything you might have done or anything you might be embarrassed about that's happened to you or any of it you know people love to talk shit about people they don't know and I don't know it just hit hard watching Nathan go through that because all he wants is to move on and he's trying so hard and other people don't want to let him. And it humanized him in a way that I just don't think I could see when I was younger. And maybe I hadn't, you know, lived through so much and watched other people go through so much. You hadn't gotten all the poop emojis yet. You know, but I just thought that that was really poignant and it felt really true. And then to see an adult try to say, you know, you're going to have to make choices here.

you're going to have to choose to live differently if you don't want you know to be left with it it oh the pain because we know where nathan ends up was special and that heckler goes after his kid right like yeah like you you can see Nathan trying and trying and then the kid thing comes up and he just snaps like he's got that in him that like little bit of dance got in him that is like he's trying to push it down and trying to push it down but when someone goes after your kid, it's just animal instinct. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I'm a nightmare. That's why I'm doing PTA now, so I'm just up in there. Just getting to know all those bullies. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing

for a hundred years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Liz, speaking of kid stuff, you know, you're trying to depict a 19-year-old couple with a baby.

in this and we didn't have our kids yet like what were you trying to model that after because it did look very like all-American and sweet which in hindsight maybe we shouldn't have done to America I know right we should have made it look harder yeah the worst part is that uh haley's not getting sleep like that's the worst um yeah I mean look I I didn't have a kid then anyway it's funny what I realize now is I remember the night we were shooting that you know it's a toddler right so he's a toddler right so he He's not being quiet when he's supposed to be quiet. And he's like singing in some takes and he's talking it like and it didn't match. I remember trying to like wrestle it to control.

And then I remember in editing thinking Joy did such a nice job and it actually brought something to it because she's constantly like having to pick up the toy that he threw or like ad lib in something to kind of redirect. And I remember that was like one of those moments where I was like, oh, this was an opportunity. Like I so wanted to wrestle it into control and it was actually an opportunity and was nice to give her something more to do and to like literally grapple with. But yeah, I mean, but also like their house was not nearly messy enough. No. Like not by a mile. Yeah.

Her hair looked nice. You know what I mean? Like she had makeup on. She had showered. Yeah. No. Girl. We're on day three of this hair right now.

And that's what you do in parents. You just let the grease settle in where it's going to settle. But I like that we got to see Haley and Nathan at like peak happy, you know? Because my favorite part of this episode was that hardcore makeout at the end. By the trophies. Girl, there is nothing I love more than a post-fight makeout. I love it. I don't even want to sleep with you.

I just want to make out like we're 17 and we've got 15 minutes before your mom gets home. Yeah. I remember shooting that. Joy's super sexy in that. But I remember shooting that. I remember doing a take and then, and it was like a cute kiss. And I remember talking to them and saying, like, look, I think you guys haven't kissed in a long time, like a long time. Like, you're not in a good place.

I don't even know that you're sleeping in the same room. Like, you haven't. touched. So when it should like, maybe it's tentative at first. And then like, what does that feel like if all of a sudden those floodgates of like your contact? And they both were like, got it. Like instantly they're like, we know what to do. We got it. And then that was the next take. And they were so good. They were so hot. The line. What was the line, Sophia? Oh, he says, he says, we're not the couple we used to be, but we're going to get there. That was sexy. And also to have seen them in these happy moments reminded you of where they were,

you know, it built the bridge between ultimate Nathan Haley end of high school and then this fractured couple that you've seen in season five. And to see them on that bridge felt so nice. And then to come into this end moment where she's just doing this nice thing for him and he acknowledges it. he's acknowledging her in ways that he hasn't and he reminds her of that thing he said in the last episode and suddenly it's it's like we're going to get there we're going to make it the whole thing was so charged and I was like oh okay okay characters I'm in for this that felt adult yeah like you you really do feel the sort of adult relationships in this season

like everybody's just like a little more settled and people are calling it like it is and I liked it Brooke Davis just calling shit out like it is like the comedy of Brooke Davis this episode was so fun again totally different movie than the basketball

that was all like you know fun sexy boys being fast Brooke Davis is doing her own little Sandra Bullock romcom with like Lucas down on one knee and Victoria comes in and that timing was incredible. Incredible.

I love those storylines so much and even the fact that Brooke just leaves her mom to stew all night. She said, I've been calling you all night. I will drop anoint papers. You know, it's honestly great parenting A plus Victoria. But like I loved when I got comedy like this

and I loved at the end when Lucas comes looking for you just getting to be like oh i see that shit all over your face okay interesting you've said no and she said no and you're both liars got it and i like that brook just doesn't give a no to say the thing out loud you're still in love with her aren't you that was so balzy yeah and the way you played it is like it's delicious when you say it like you loved like Brooke loved saying it you know she was like oh I have your number yeah it was like a delicious delivery yeah Brooke Davis loves to know a secret well because there was a mislead there because we've just seen him like kiss you in the flashback

there's that moment of like did we follow the wrong paths you lean down and you're wearing like a button up shirt that's a little like cleavagey and it's like you're like you're like you Is Brooke Davis going to come on to Lucas? And instead she just calls his shit out! And it was fantastic. You lured it in just to cast it back out. Like, hey, mister, I got your number. Yeah.

Yeah, that was so fun. I loved it. An Easter egg that we discovered in the episode was that the picture that Lucas has in his phone of Peyton is one of the psychoderic pictures. like hello producers people who do that behind the scenes work like I exclaimed

it couldn't have been a date photo like it couldn't have been some cute picture of the two of you they just went oh here's a picture of Hillary and it's like well yeah guys but that's a picture that her you know fake brother psycho stalker took maybe not the one that should be in her actual

boyfriend's phone that was a fail can you imagine Lucas just like I mean it's a good picture he's like I just really like it what a creep Liz how much say did you have over that stuff that was all insert work that like probably someone else shot

right that I don't remember I mean some of it like when you come on direct I mean some of it you do and some of it you don't like I remember in that first like the bookend scenes with Lindsay I remember saying it's so weird to me that she's in workwear like they're hanging out at home and I remember saying like, are you, I was so surprised that she didn't come in wearing like sweats and a t-shirt or, you know, something like that.

And I got in trouble. What? It was like, this is what she's wearing. This is what's been paid. And I was like, okay, okay, okay. So it depends show to show. It depends show to show. And I don't know that I, you're right about the Instagram.

I don't know that I actually shot that phone. You know what I mean? I think that might have been held. But yeah, sometimes, sometimes you pick And sometimes you don't And sometimes you see it and go, hmm, okay. Interesting. Choosing your battles is, it's hard to begin with, right?

But choosing your battles when you are a female in our industry, particularly in the early 2000s, was, I mean, that was an art form, trying to figure out like, am I going to piss them off if I push this? I don't know. Is it worth it? I don't know. Were there any battles that you wish you would push further for or any that you won

that you want to brag about? I mean, on this episode, the basketball was a win because I got like, we really shot egregiously long, which I'm not proud of, no crew should shoot. But I remember thinking that like, and I think my pitch was like, this is a college game. It has to feel bigger than a high school game. Like if we're saying this is Division 2, like televised, like defining moment basketball, like it needs to be.

And so I remember, like, spending a lot of points that day, like, in terms of equipment and hours and crowd and things like that. And then, you know, stuff. I mean, and then, like, it's always interesting. Like, you know, as a director, like, I remember shooting transitions in and out of the flashbacks. And then you see, and it just goes to white. And they're like, okay, it's not what I would have done, but, you know, it's on my show. so um but yeah it's funny because i like i said i had done a movie and on a movie as a director you really like you're the number one and so when i was like that's weird that she's working that

i think i just was ignorant i don't think i knew that you weren't supposed to be like alert this is totally weird well no you are supposed to say alert you are in a normal world you say alert and someone says wow that's collaborative thank you for sharing let's work on it yeah Or they say, look, I know that. But actually, in the next episode, she's leaving from here. So I know it's weird here, but we got it. Exactly. It's not a problem.

But I really, I remember getting my hand slapped for questioning. Like, I really remember getting a little trouble. That's so weird. Were you like, I've directed a movie, you big dumb asses? Yeah, that probably didn't feel worth it. It's just also, it's like, it's a skirt. Like, we don't need to get so heated. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, wouldn't it have been lovely? if someone said this is only her fifth episode and we're really trying to just establish a look for her and we want her in the look all the time and you could have been like okay i disagree but i think that where i take issue is when is with the hand slapping or the or the sort of ways that you know we all undoubtedly on the show experienced like being demeaned for having ideas is kind of like don't you want people who care enough about this thing we're all making together other to point out ways we think it could be better. You can disagree. You can say I'm wrong,

but you don't have to treat me like I'm stupid. Yeah. I mean, it's also like you have all the power anyway if you're the showrunner. So like why are we getting so, you know, crazy about it? But I also think it's just, you know, and like me talking about your crew is the perfect example of this. It's like you want people like forget that you want like a great work culture. We do. I don't mean to forget it. But like even if you're being manipulative, just trying to get more, like, if people are invested and have ideas and want to do better, like, they just work better and harder and they will bring shit. And like, you'll still look good in the end. You know, it's all, that's what's just always weird to me about people who want people to very much stay in their lane. Because some of like

the best directors I've ever met will take ideas from, like, best idea wins. And you're still going a credit for it, you know, as a director, as a showrunner, as whatever. But it's just, even in terms of making something good, like when people contribute, it's the work is just better, period. Yeah. That was my experience at MTV. It was like whether you were the vice president of the company or you were an intern, everybody went into the morning meeting and was allowed to pitch ideas. And the best idea always won. And so I don't know if that was that way in the music video world. to imagine we were all kind of connected in that way because there were a lot of like young creatives who were making like big moves in the music video world and so to come to this this other space

one tree hill felt so corporate to me it was definitely like the most corporate job I ever had because it was protocol and stay in your lane and all those kinds of like buzzwords that you've used but yeah it was it was so corporate and I lived with half the crew at the time like I lived at the whole AD department and they loved you because they got to do different stuff like all the Central Park stuff with the horses lined up I remember them coming home and talking about that because I wasn't a part of that and they came home and they were like it really looked cool it looked like Central Park and it was like Greenfield Lake you know yeah that feels good to stretch your muscles yeah I felt like that shooting all that stuff with you even as an actor like the the New York

flashbacks and and, you know, having this sort of night on the town where these two friends who haven't seen each other, you know, in a couple of years or having this moment and talking and I don't know, it felt really cool and it felt different. And I remember even seeing what you'd created and being like, oh my God, it really does look like, you know, the south end of Central Park. Like it really, it all feels kind of. of like something familiar and it's exciting to change it up when you've been doing the same thing all day every day. So Liz, what'd you do right after this show? Like, okay, great. You've got your first episode of TV under your belt. You've worked with Daphne Zuniga and Barry Corbyn at this point.

So now you're like a fucking pro. I peaked. I should have quit. Yeah. By the way, I love them both. And seeing Barry, because we haven't seen him this season. You know, to have him, come on, just to quit. We were like, what the hell's happening um but so then what do you do like what what do you take from this experience and then start applying to other jobs you know I mean I think that the I mean being an episodic director um is a weird job because you're kind of always jumping into like a different not just a different show actor but like a different culture like people yeah do things different run sets different um you know I mean it's funny I mean I will tell like I did a lot of cw stuff that's where girls were by the way the only place at the time um yeah you know i did

one tree hill and then i think i did some 90210s and i did some gossip girls but we were your favorites though right yes by the way unequivocally not even having to say that i'm i mean i loved your cast i loved your cast um but uh you know i mean that was like where i could hired at the time and it's interesting because like years and years later like after I had been doing pilots and um you know stuff for streaming and network stuff um I remember of trying to make a deal on a pilot and um trying to get my rate up and the and the studio was like we're not going to pay you that and my lawyer said let me please play the V card and I was like oh great what is it and he was like the vagina card and I was like okay and he said and he went to them and he said

you're penalizing her because she was a woman and she started at CW, which paid less than network. And so she's now less, like even though she's climbed, she's less. So if you want to say that you're giving her less now compared to men who have been doing it because they were able to jump right into network, that's what you're saying. You're penalizing her. And they were like, uh, let us get back to you. And I ended up getting a bump. But like that, by the way, it was only because I had somebody who knew all that.

And, yep, I can't. So I did a lot of CW stuff for a long time. And when you were like a brand new baby director, what did you want to do? You know, because I don't think any of us, well, maybe some of us were like, yeah, I want to go kiss and cry and be a teenager forever. Like, that's a fun gig for a minute. But I think, you know, you start off in this business and you have really big, grand aspirations of becoming Ruth Gordon or Nicole Kidman. Or, you know, we say Sandra Bullock all the time. All the time.

were the people that you were trying to model your career after? I mean, I wanted to make big movies, you know. I wanted to be Danny Boyle or, you know, I wanted to make big, important movies. I mean, I think what's so interesting is, and I developed them, but movies take so long to make. And then as I directed TV, TV changed, like a lot, you know. Now it's like where you can burn a character over eight hours or 12 hours and a streamer, you know, where you can take that time and move slower. Like now I love it. But at the time, you know, TV was not what it is now, obviously.

Do you think the writer's strike of 2007 is what made us come out with that renaissance of television? Because when we came back from that writer's strike, all of a sudden, that's when all like there were so many HBO. shows that were just like hot so many showtime shows cable was doing crazy things now we're started to do crazy things that was you know totally unexpected as we're in a writer's strike right now do you feel that kind of like creative fury bubbling up are we going to have another big changeover I mean I don't know you know I think it's funny like all of my friends and myself who are writing like we're writing with a fury right now because it's like oh you won't give us this well we're going to write this you know uh and kind of and in a way because

you're not working with producers or studios you're very bold because you can write anything because it just exists in a vacuum right now it's not real you're not really writing to sell so maybe Hillary like maybe that because I do see it now like there's no risk really like you're just going to write what you want because what you can't sell it right now yeah so it's like pure creative energy Yeah. Mad writing is good. Like writing with a vengeance is good. Oh, I can't wait. I can't wait. Tell us, we've talked about the writer's strike on the show here. And I've been seen people do like themed, themed strike days. There's like a Newsies day at the Disney lot. There's been a couple other ones. Yeah, we need a Tree Hill Strike Day.

Yeah. Who would you dress as on Tree Hill Strike Day? I'm trying to think of who I could pull it off as. Um, like I want to say one of you two, but it wouldn't be cute. Um, what are you talking about? Uh, I mean, I do love Peyton and the double T shirt, I think is like pretty iconic, right? Yeah. I love what a slob she is. Because when she comes back to Tree Hill, she's wearing all these little like slip dresses.

She's trying to be all sexy. But three years ago, Peyton is like, listen, I'm not changing my pants. Like, we're just going to wear these holy jeans. every single she's defeated she's just busy she's she's working for terrible people who are sending her on coffee runs and making her come to the office at 11 o'clock at night yeah she's getting put in her place which I suppose was bound to happen sooner or later um who did we miss in this episode sometimes we get in trouble Liz because we pass over key points I mean we did go through I mean, at least all my notes, I will say.

It's an interesting episode because it really only revolves around us five, you know? And now Lindsay with Lucas, but like it, you don't see mouth, you don't see skills, you don't see anybody else. You essentially get, what you really get is the brother's story in a way. It's like Lucas has a flashback looking at a photo of him and Nathan in the college game. game. And then you follow Lucas and Nathan on their journeys. And Lucas, you know, does what he does and he makes both of the women who've loved him feel weird. And he's trying to figure out how to be a dad and not turn into Dan. Well, that's it. They're both showing a little bit of Dan in this episode. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting point there. Yeah. But I think we did it.

It was kind of insular, but that's what I thought was so fun about it. You know, you really only get some surprising moments from Whitey and Victoria. You know, they're the only two that come in to put us all in our place. She says, if you think you're going back down to Hicksville, North Carolina, I'm just like, y'all, we live here. Be cool. We live there, lady. Did you go out while we were filming, Liz? Like on the first one were you trying to be a good kid

Get to bed I think I was yeah I think I was I mean I went out I loved Wilmington Like I had never been there before And it was a revelation to me Like I loved it so much

Yeah Have you shot anything else there? Yeah I think Really? I think in like I'm like sleepy hollow shot there

Oh yeah I'm trying to think of anything else I don't know I love it there so much It's super special Well and you have worked on so much stuff. I mean, all of this stuff on your IMDB page is bananas. You worked on the boys, American horror story. Tell me a story. Jessica Jones. The gifted conviction. Secrets and

lies. Oh, I remember secrets and lies. Oh, you did three episodes of the following, too. Sleepy Hollow. I didn't know that. You did Revolution with my husband's best friend, Billy Burke. like you have worked on vampire diaries you've worked on everything yep and so for our show we did a little bit of everything we had some horror stuff we had lovey-dovey shit we had action stuff with the sports like what is your favorite thing now as a veteran in this industry who how many episodes of television have you done now a lot hundreds what's your favorite thing to do now Yeah, is it a genre or is it a place? I mean, my favorite thing now is working with actors 100%.

It's like the collaboration and the discovery and that now that I feel like I have a little confidence, like seeing something in a rehearsal and having a plan to do this, but seeing something and have seen something somebody give you an idea and going, oh God, this is what the scene is. is about and like that kinetic energy with working with actors and great actor like that is i mean look i love shooting big stunts like that's a fun you know like big action like the boys it was super fun um but it's also just like even in that it's about like finding mistakes with a person right like why do i care that you're almost getting killed like why um and that back and forth and that spontaneous and like prepping well enough that you can be spontaneous in the moment um that's like my favorite favorite that's so cool it may look different but native culture is very alive my name is Nicole Garcia and on burn sage burn bridges we aim to explore that culture it was a huge

honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly like very traditional it feels like Rob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornales, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive, while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream.

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Do we have any listener questions this episode? We do. And actually, I think it's such a cool question for Liz, because it's technically about location scouting. Ariana wants to know how come even though Tree Hill is set on a beach we rarely have scenes at the beach or near the beach

well did you film at the beach list not on this episode on other episodes I think so do you want to tell them why we don't go there why it's a nightmare I mean yeah I mean look it's like first of all you're trying to build a day somewhere right so like you

have to build a day at the beach to get like to rationalize getting the company out there and moving all the stuff out there. You have to have a whole day of stuff to shoot there. So it would have to be a beach-centered episode. And then, I mean, moving things in sand. Like, is there anything worse? Like, everything has to be put on those weird, big, fat rubber wheels and pushed. And you're asking a crew and a cask to walk in sand. And then it's windy or it's sunny or the fog rolls. It's just very. It's wet. Yeah. To get like that idyllic looking thing is like finding a needle in a haystack. Yeah. And I used to think a lot about the camera

guys, A, because those, you know, Dolly's cameras are all so heavy. And B, anytime you have to change the film or change a lens, you're asking people to do that with the most sensitive materials in our business in Sandy Wind. It's terrible. I was going to say, were we still shooting on film in season five? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, we were one of the last shows we held out man yeah i would give anything to go back to film yeah we just looked nice on film nobody wants to see 4k it's too much like i don't need to know how many hairs you have in your eyebrows i don't need to know the size of your pores it's too it's too close it's so hyper real that it takes me out of things as a viewer because it's like i'm at a science museum i don't like it

Let's just go back. It's so sharp. And I feel like on the film, it's like as directors and then cameramen, like we, you know, people would be like, is it going to look like that? And you'd be like, no, we're going to do this thing because the monitors were so bad. Now there's like a mystery to it still. And like directors of photography had an air of mystery of how they did now. It's like, is it going to look like that?

Yes, it's going to look exactly like that. If you don't like it now, you're not going to like it later. You're really not going to like it on a big screen TV. no when they come in so super tight now it's just mean right just mean yeah not here for it i wasn't there for it when we were playing 19 year olds 19 years old kids are idiots um okay so liz when you come back in future episodes yes i think we did more flashback stuff like i feel like i remember laying on a car with lucas um i remember us hanging out by the sound somewhere There's definitely more flashbacks.

This was the first one, but there's definitely more. Also, because this played really well. Like, people loved this episode. They loved seeing where we'd been. Thanks to Liz. Look, it was also really smart writing to hold off five episodes. You know what I mean? Because people were, like, so dying to know by now.

Like, that was a really smart construct. Of all the storylines that you had to direct, Which one was your least favorite? That's my. Which one are you like, God damn that one? On this episode or any episode? Any episode. Wow.

I mean. I mean, you could tell us your favorite too, but I'm snarky, so I'll go on least favorite. I loved this episode. One, I just thought like it was a fun opportunity and it was the first. And then I think next season I shot an episode called. get cape wear cape fly which has a big funeral in it i won't even say more than that yeah um but that was that was a good episode sophia i remember you at the end of that episode is like that was one of my favorite episodes i ever did and liz you you just like you set such a tone for me and it's so

cool to have you in our orbit again now and even to hear like you talking about you know know, when you left Till and you called Liz because who else had a baby, like, I remember in season six being like, I want to be her friend. Yeah. I'm feeling like this kid who like, I was like, I can't ask her for her phone number. It would be so weird. Like, I wouldn't even know what to say to her. And I'm really glad I get to tell you that now and be like, cool, let's be friends.

Because I was so enamored by you and intimidated by you and impressed by you. And I was just like, hey, Liz, how are you doing? How's your morning? Okay, I'm going to go with it. I'm going to go sit in my chair, no, bye. I mean, I felt the same way I loved you guys. Like, I really, I thought you were so good and so cool. And I felt like we spoke the same language.

And, yeah, I loved it. Wow. You were the cool senior. So thanks for bringing us underclassmen along. Hell yeah. Because it was, you know, I think everyone knows we needed places where we could feel safe. And you were a place where we could feel safe. and it has been really exciting to see all of the shows that you've worked on and all of your credits

and like see you in variety and see you in all like the trades and stuff and be like we know her she's a boss lady now she's running this town it's fun for us yeah because we had no idea we were your first TV show not a clue I probably didn't tell you I mean like it was so embarrassing but um yeah I love it all right so should we spend a wheel on Are we a wheel time? Let's do it. Liz, have you listened to the show? Do you know what our...

Yes, I listen to it always. Girl, you get to spin the wheel. So we have to pick someone from the cast and someone from real life who fits this superlative, most likely to... What do we have, Sophia? Most likely to survive on their own lost in the woods. Okay, character most likely to survive. I mean, Lucas can't survive one fucking day without a girl, so it's not him. Definitely not.

Who do we think can survive? I mean, I think Whitey. I think he's got like those cool older generation skills. Like, that guy would probably be in the woods, whittling tools. He'd know how to build a fire with no match. You know, like, couldn't you picture it? Is that why he retired? So he could just go off into the woods.

And whittle? And whittle, yeah. He wouldn't panic, which is a good trait. No. Right? He'd probably, like, like, pick one tree and name it Camilla and talk to it all the time. Oh. That would be his Wilson?

Yeah. Yeah. Camilla, I made another spoon, whittling. I love it. All right, Liz, who do you think in real life? What actor on our show do you think would survive in the woods, if any? No, I don't think you are at all. I mean, I think it's funny.

I look at both of you. I feel like Hillary can garden and make things and farm and do all that and has like a million things. And then, Sophia, I think you have such incredible conviction that you would just like hone in on what to do and do it. Dude, she's out there fly fishing. She's fly fishing. living in yurts and stuff on the top of a mountain. And she said that's like what a prepper she is. So you know she'll just figure it out.

Yeah. Yeah. She's got a knapsack with all the right tools, like a spork and one of those water filtration straws. Didn't you give away those things like in your wedding gift basket? There are some survival tools in there. You win this round. I think it would be us.

I would not be able to do it alone. But I think if you and I got stuck out there together, we'd be fine. Yeah. All right. The girls got this. The girls have everything under control. Obby, yeah. Yeah.

The CW groomed us well. God bless. Are they done now? What's going on with? Is the CW like MTV? Like we conquered those chapters in American television and now they're gone. Are they? I don't know.

I don't even know. I think maybe. This week, they were both in the news for just canceling everything. So, guys. We were there during the peaks. I'm so glad we did it together. Holy hell. What do we got next week, baby?

Ooh, next week we've got season five, episode six. Don't Dream. It's over. Can't wait. Liz, thank you so, so much for taking care of us then and for coming to join us now and for watching this episode for the first time in like 15 years. Thank you for having me. I love this show.

And I love hearing you guys talk about your experience. with such intelligence and empathy. And I think you guys are amazing. Thank you, Liz. All right, we have to do another show. Yeah. Okay. All right, you guys, we will see you next week.

Bye. Bye. Hey, thanks for listening. Don't forget to leave us a review. You can also follow us on Instagram at Drama Queens OTH. Or email us at Drama Queens at iHeartRadio.com. See you next time. all about that high school drama girl drama girl all about them high school queens we'll take you for a ride and

our comic girl cheering for the right team drama queens drama queens smart girl rough girl fashion but you're tough girl you could sit with us girl drama queen drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens drama queens it may look different but native culture is alive my name is nicole garcia and on burn sage burn bridges we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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